Don't call it eugenics - that would be antisemetic

[Idaho]

Israel sterilises African Jews without telling them.


Israel has admitted for the first time that it has been giving Ethiopian Jewish immigrants birth-control injections, often without their knowledge or consent.

The government had previously denied the practice but the Israeli Health Ministry’s director-general has now ordered gynaecologists to stop administering the drugs. According a report in Haaretz, suspicions were first raised by an investigative journalist, Gal Gabbay, who interviewed more than 30 women from Ethiopia in an attempt to discover why birth rates in the community had fallen dramatically.


Last year, the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who also holds the health portfolio, warned that illegal immigrants from Africa “threaten our existence as a Jewish and democratic state”.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-gave-birth-control-to-ethiopian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html

[CBR]

I guess they tried some less effective procedures first, before they came up with this final solution.

[Greyblades]

Every group has the capacity to be douchebags.

[Visor]

Every group has the capacity to be douchebags.

Douchebag is not the word I would use, this is sickening. I find the fact that there is no charges being laid (so far) disturbing.

[Fragony]

Pretty shocking

[Idaho]

Every group has the capacity to be douchebags.

The difference is that other groups don't claim immunity from being called douche bags and argue that any criticism is a genocidal assault.

[Greyblades]

...I think the north koreans do sometimes.

[Hooahguy]

I guess they tried some less effective procedures first, before they came up with this final solution.
I see what you did there. :stare:




Dont worry, I laughed.



Douchebag is not the word I would use, this is sickening. I find the fact that there is no charges being laid (so far) disturbing.

Well considering there is substantial racism among most of the population, including many new immigrants who are quick to adopt the current Israeli culture in order to "assimilate" as fast as they can. Unfortunately they seem to pick up the bad with the good.

[rajpoot]

Question is what is going to happen about it. Will the affected community rise up in protests? Will they punish the people responsible for coming up with such a plan and those who consented and allowed it to be put in practice?

Also times like this I feel glad that my government is spineless. If any country in this world needs enforced birth control it is India. But hell would freeze over before they would even think of something of this sort.

[HoreTore]

There is no better way to show your deepest respect for a tragedy than making a funny joke about it. Jokes show inclusion, acceptance and tolerance - the lack of jokes is tell-tale sign of hate, fear and exclusion.

Anyhoo.

This is of course eugenics, the aim is racial purity. What's most interesting to me is the division between "proper jews" and "dirty jews", with the former secretly curbing the latter. One could assume that "jews" would not create distinctions like that, especially since Israel officially does not. Israel officially does not differentiate between african and other jews, it seems that was just in theory. In practice, even the state differentiates on origin.

But at the end of the day, Israel is a functioning state. Yes, they created this scheme, but who here comes from a state who hasn't done the same in the last 50 years? I sure don't. Israel created the program, Israel uncovered the program, one can only hope Israel will end the program. I believe Israel will.

[HoreTore]

Also times like this I feel glad that my government is spineless. If any country in this world needs enforced birth control it is India. But hell would freeze over before they would even think of something of this sort.

lol, what? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#India)

[Fragony]

It's pretty easy, darker skin means 'not proper jews' there. Racism is probably worse there than it is in most countriesl. This is even worse though

[Hax]

I don't know. Twenty~ to thirty years ago racism against so-called mizrahi (i.e. Middle-Eastern) Jews used to be pretty bad, but it's become better since then. We'll see how this proceeds.

[rajpoot]

lol, what? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#India)

I meant a program where the people involved were unaware of what was happening.
Either way those were different times. Indira Gandhi was one of the toughest PMs we've had.

[HoreTore]

I meant a program where the people involved were unaware of what was happening.
Either way those were different times. Indira Gandhi was one of the toughest PMs we've had.

So.... Eugenics is a-okay as long as you inform the person before you forcefully strap him down and cut his nuts off?

[Tellos Athenaios]

So.... Eugenics is a-okay as long as you inform the person before you forcefully strap him down and cut his nuts off?
Eugenics presupposes you actively select, whereas what limited knowledge was contained in your Wiki snippet suggests that the Indian programme was not meant to be selective by design.

Of course since they apparently used subsidies and other carrots the program naturally ended up being self-selecting. As for the nuts, well it was mainly women who were targeted (which in a way actually makes a lot of sense when you consider that women represent the bottleneck in human reproductive potential -- so by making women infertile you get the most effect).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't know. Twenty~ to thirty years ago racism against so-called mizrahi (i.e. Middle-Eastern) Jews used to be pretty bad, but it's become better since then. We'll see how this proceeds.


Yeah - but that's just stupid, all things given.

Also - UK - pretty sure we haven't been doing Eugenics in the last 50 years - cultural genocide yes, Eugenics, no.

Also, I wish to declare myself officially over the Holocaust.

[HoreTore]

Eugenics presupposes you actively select, whereas what limited knowledge was contained in your Wiki snippet suggests that the Indian programme was not meant to be selective by design.

Of course since they apparently used subsidies and other carrots the program naturally ended up being self-selecting. As for the nuts, well it was mainly women who were targeted (which in a way actually makes a lot of sense when you consider that women represent the bottleneck in human reproductive potential -- so by making women infertile you get the most effect).

When you offer benefits only a poor and desperate person would accept, you specifically target the lower class.


Yeah - but that's just stupid, all things given.

Also - UK - pretty sure we haven't been doing Eugenics in the last 50 years - cultural genocide yes, Eugenics, no.

Also, I wish to declare myself officially over the Holocaust.

Sure? Nothing on the travellers, gypsies, etc? England has plenty of missionaries, I'd be surprised if Britain was the only country where they've never been involved in eugenics.

[Greyblades]

Sure? Nothing on the travellers, gypsies, etc? England has plenty of missionaries, I'd be surprised if Britain was the only country where they've never been involved in eugenics.

He said the last 50 years, we did bad but not recently. Like most of the world we've been getting progressively less dickish over the last 2 centuries and I don't believe that we got to the point where eugenics was intentional national policy before Nazi Germany rendered supporting eugenics as political suicide

[HopAlongBunny]

The practice is repulsive. Worse is the mind-set that identifies it as a "good thing".

"Most of the harm in the world is done by good people, and not by accident, lapse, or omission. It is the result of their deliberate actions, long persevered in, which they hold to be motivated by high ideals toward virtuous ends... when millions are slaughtered, when torture is practiced, starvation enforced, oppression made a policy, as at present over a large part of the world, and as it has often been in the past, it must be at the behest of very many good people, and even by their direct action, for what they consider a worthy object." (Isabel Paterson)

[HoreTore]

He said the last 50 years, we did bad but not recently. Like most of the world we've been getting progressively less dickish over the last 2 centuries.

I said "last 50 years" ~;)

Forced sterilizations were all the rage in the 60's, I'd be surprised if Britain didn't join the cool nations.

Pleasantly surprised, of course, but then again, nobody likes that one kid who doesn't want to smoke. He's such a geek.

Edit: also, I'm stuck in the late 1990's - I always say "last 50 years" when I refer to the post-ww2 era....

[Greyblades]

Well the wiki says nothing about eugenics in Britain after a proposed 1913 Mental Deficiency Act that was rejected by nearly 2/3rds of parliament. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_eugenics#United_Kingdom
Personally I am... conflicted, on the one hand I do think that it could be a good way to eliminate serious mental defects on the level of horrendus retardation, yet I prefer the idea of developing ways of prevention or "curing" of such defects in the womb and I find the idea of using it to eliminate racial groups not only repulsive, but pointlessly stupid.

[Papewaio]

So this is a self executing pogram?

[Idaho]

Also, I wish to declare myself officially over the Holocaust.

That is unwise. The process of Holocaust is repeated again and again throughout history. The nazi/jew instance was just the modern large scale industrial version. It will be back again and people will refuse to see it for what it is until it ends.

[Fragony]

Doubt it (genocide) will happen again in Europe, less sure about Africa

[HoreTore]

Doubt it (genocide) will happen again in Europe, less sure about Africa

Brownshirts are patrolling the streets of Europe again. They're looking for unwanted groups to beat up.

How long before they're looking for unwanted groups to massacre?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is unwise. The process of Holocaust is repeated again and again throughout history. The nazi/jew instance was just the modern large scale industrial version. It will be back again and people will refuse to see it for what it is until it ends.

I know my history; I get the problem with people. My point is I'm over the Holocaust, and so - apparently - is the Jewish State.

[Fragony]

Brownshirts are patrolling the streets of Europe again. They're looking for unwanted groups to beat up.

How long before they're looking for unwanted groups to massacre?

Mostly flagwaving and a big mouth, I am not that worried about brownshirts. Golden Dawn in Greece is the real thing though.

[Idaho]

I know my history; I get the problem with people. My point is I'm over the Holocaust, and so - apparently - is the Jewish State.

So as a wealthy white English man with no personal experience, or family history of ethnic violence or persecution you believe that the Holocaust no longer has any relevance to you?

[HoreTore]

Mostly flagwaving and a big mouth, I am not that worried about brownshirts. Golden Dawn in Greece is the real thing though.

I have a few brown friends studying in Budapest.

It's not very pleasant. Being brown is enough to get a punch in the face most places in eastern europe. Possibly in Italy too. That's a potential for genocide.

[Fragony]

I have a few brown friends studying in Budapest.

It's not very pleasant. Being brown is enough to get a punch in the face most places in eastern europe. Possibly in Italy too. That's a potential for genocide.

Yeah racism is very much alive there I won't deny that, but it's street violence mostly, random victims. Why your brown friends go there is beyond me they should have known better. Ok there is potential for genocide there but not a potential that can be realised realistically

[HoreTore]

Yeah racism is very much alive there I won't deny that, but it's street violence mostly, random victims. Why your brown friends go there is beyond me they should have known better. Ok there is potential for genocide there but not a potential that can be realised realistically

They're studying.

I'm not saying that we're living in February 1939, but that a future genocide somewhere in Europe is unlikely, is nonsense. Odds are we'll see it again. And again.

[Montmorency]

It has happened frequently in history: the inconceivable suddenly or gradually becomes the far-fetched, and the far-fetched merely unlikely.

But surely we can agree that in the immediate-sense it is still "inconceivable"?

[Fragony]

They're studying.

I'm not saying that we're living in February 1939, but that a future genocide somewhere in Europe is unlikely, is nonsense. Odds are we'll see it again. And again.

It's not unthinkable but I don't see it happening, maybe more hate-crimes but not all out genocide. But never say never

[Idaho]

It's not unthinkable but I don't see it happening, maybe more hate-crimes but not all out genocide. But never say never

You surprise me Frag. I thought if they promised to round up muslims you'd gladly lend support.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So as a wealthy white English man with no personal experience, or family history of ethnic violence or persecution you believe that the Holocaust no longer has any relevance to you?

If the Jewish State itself has forgotten the Holocaust so completely then it has ceased to be a living memory and become a part of history. Ergo, I can take the lesson from it but I'm not going to get het up about it anymore than I'm going to get het up and any other type of religious persecution.

The Holocaust was only as successful as it was because it was industrialised - it's not the first time one group of humans so completely dehumanised another that they were able to methodically slaughter them - men women and children.

Also - you missed your mark, I'm neither wealthy nor all that English. There's plenty of history of persecution in my family, along with crime, poverty, and domestic violence.

Then again - there's the prejudice you get for just being English to begin with - including everyone telling you how well off and racist you are.

[HoreTore]

.....And of course, self-victimization whenever "englishness" is brought up is another vital part of being English ~;)

[Greyblades]

The world would probably be a better place if everyone decided the only group that people should identify with was human.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The world would probably be a better place if everyone decided the only group that people should identify with was human.

It's been tried.

It last about as long as it takes to get two people to agree to the idea and one to refuse.

[Strike For The South]

The world would probably be a better place if everyone decided the only group that people should identify with was human.

This post is effeminate

[Greyblades]

Thank you.
It's been tried.

It last about as long as it takes to get two people to agree to the idea and one to refuse.

I was thinking more on a nationality level.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Thank you.

I was thinking more on a nationality level.

One nationality? Been tried.

People died.

[Greyblades]

People allways die, in everything.

[Fragony]

You surprise me Frag. I thought if they promised to round up muslims you'd gladly lend support.

You don't surprise me at all

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

People allways die, in everything.

If you say so, Comrade.

[Greyblades]

A communist jab? Oh please, I'd have everyone under one flag, not one social strata.

[Papewaio]

According to Reddit and links it looks like this has been going on for years if not a decade or more.

Whilst the Holocaust has some very real lessons to learn from it.

IMDHO believe this is the proverbial straw. Israel has spent a vast political capital and no longer should be able to play the Holocaust card. Two wrongs don't make a right. But once you do the wrong thing it takes a lot of cheek to point the fingers at others.

[Brenus]

“It's been tried.” When? For both of your statements.

[Ironside]

A communist jab? Oh please, I'd have everyone under one flag, not one social strata.

Then you have tension between that stratas that needs to be constantly compensated for, since the natural stability between the stratas will shift.

[Montmorency]

Isn't that what states already do? The only way around it is transhuman hive-mind.

[Greyblades]

Then you have tension between that stratas that needs to be constantly compensated for, since the natural stability between the stratas will shift.

We already have to deal with that, only in this theoretical scenario there wont be groups of people running away from society's problems with misused plattitudes like freedom and self determination as excuses for abandoning the rest.

[HoreTore]

One World Government.

It'll come.

We just need another big war to gain the will to make a more powerful UN.

[Fragony]

Not interested in that movie really

[Sir Moody]

One World Government.

It'll come.

We just need another big war to gain the will to make a more powerful UN.

It is inevitable but it will need far more than one big war...

One big European war may galvanize the European super state but without MASSIVE geopolitical changes there is no way a world government will work - there are just too many factions that already don't work together (the whole Shia, Sunni split for example will keep the Middle East from uniting until ether one side wipes the other out or Islam falls out of favor with the populace)

I suspect a world government will come around about the same time we start to colonies new worlds out of our solar system - ie long after we are all dead

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

One World Government.

It'll come.

We just need another big war to gain the will to make a more powerful UN.

More likely such a war will drive us back into the Stone Age - maybe the Medieval if we're lucky.

[Idaho]

If the Jewish State itself has forgotten the Holocaust so completely then it has ceased to be a living memory and become a part of history. Ergo, I can take the lesson from it but I'm not going to get het up about it anymore than I'm going to get het up and any other type of religious persecution.

The Holocaust was only as successful as it was because it was industrialised - it's not the first time one group of humans so completely dehumanised another that they were able to methodically slaughter them - men women and children.

Also - you missed your mark, I'm neither wealthy nor all that English. There's plenty of history of persecution in my family, along with crime, poverty, and domestic violence.

Then again - there's the prejudice you get for just being English to begin with - including everyone telling you how well off and racist you are.
I thought you were a young conservative farmer type?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I thought you were a young conservative farmer type?No, I grew up on a small holding and in rural Devon and I hold broadly conservative political views.My Father is a Swedish immigrant and my Mother is the daughter of an army-brat electrician and a woman whose family were cattle drovers from Wales.The fact that said drovers were at one time wealthy building merchants (after moving to England) and that my other grandmother went to RADA just serve to show that my family tree is complex.I'm about 50% Anglo-Saxon, but the other 50% is a rag-bag of Welsh, Irish, Swedish, possibly Jewish and East-Asian as well.

[rory_20_uk]

They're studying.

I'm not saying that we're living in February 1939, but that a future genocide somewhere in Europe is unlikely, is nonsense. Odds are we'll see it again. And again.

Just Europe? There are several other continents where genocide is eminently possible. Africa seems the continent that likes to practice the most.

~:smoking:

[Rhyfelwyr]

The world would probably be a better place if everyone decided the only group that people should identify with was human.

I doubt it. National identity is what allows national-level governments to work when we have (or at least in the past have) lacked the capacity for government to function at a higher level. Local identity is a big part in developing a sense of community.

Tribal/national/religious/cultural identities are basically prerequisites for government. If people only identified as 'human' we would still be living in some sort of Hobbesian state of nature.

[The Lurker Below]

One World Government.

It'll come.

We just need another big war to gain the will to make a more powerful UN.

And two World Cups later the world would be back to small national states of people found around their favorite FC. Congrats on your long lived empire, One World Leaders!

[HoreTore]

Just Europe? There are several other continents where genocide is eminently possible. Africa seems the continent that likes to practice the most.

~:smoking:

Nowhere did I say "just Europe", I said "Europe too".

[Idaho]

I doubt it. National identity is what allows national-level governments to work when we have (or at least in the past have) lacked the capacity for government to function at a higher level. Local identity is a big part in developing a sense of community.

Tribal/national/religious/cultural identities are basically prerequisites for government. If people only identified as 'human' we would still be living in some sort of Hobbesian state of nature.
That's a bit of a cart before the horse. National identity was something constructed by industrial states.

[Hax]

What if your cultural identity is "humanist"?

[The Lurker Below]

What if your cultural identity is "humanist"?

we can all get along some of the time. some of us can get along together all the time. but we can't all get along together all the time. can a humanist be as a zombie or a robot? hug your local redneck/crack fiend/lawyer often.

[Montmorency]

Christianity.

[Hax]

I think Abraham Lincoln said that.

Well, I think we can get along most of the time. And if we can't along, let's agree to disagree. Of course, that only works within the paradigm of humanism, and I can imagine people who self-identify around a religious identity would have more trouble accepting that. Especially since human life is often regarded as less important than certain religious elements, which leads to what I find rather creepy things, such as the concept of martyrdom (which plays a large role in several religions).

[lars573]

One World Government.

It'll come.

We just need another big war to gain the will to make a more powerful UN.
That's the premise behind Star Trek. Except they use 2 big wars.

[Beskar]

In Halo and Mass Effect, they both have governments for "Beyond Earth" and this acts as the governmental body of mankind which is like the UN, but Earth is still fractured... strange reality.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's a bit of a cart before the horse. National identity was something constructed by industrial states.

Not quite - in fact not at all. Ancient Rome had a "National" identity which expanded over time to include more and more people from further afield.

The politics of modern nations have preferenced a national identity over a regional one, but this either involved tapping into an existing idea (Britishness is older than Englishness, even) or of imposing an identity via cultural programs (as in France over the course of the several Revolutions) but even then it was an imposition of an existing idea, not a manufactured one.


What if your cultural identity is "humanist"?

Which type of Humanist?


In Halo and Mass Effect, they both have governments for "Beyond Earth" and this acts as the governmental body of mankind which is like the UN, but Earth is still fractured... strange reality.

Not unreasonable - when you think about it. Those people who choose to settle on Planet X all have at least their identity as settlers in common, but people on Earth are still just people on Earth.

The Old Man's War universe and the Jack Geery universe also share this. Earth is a tapped out has-been of a planet, and all the important people are somewhere else.

[Hax]

Which type of Humanist?

Vanilla, with sprinkles on top.

[Idaho]

Not quite - in fact not at all. Ancient Rome had a "National" identity which expanded over time to include more and more people from further afield.

The politics of modern nations have preferenced a national identity over a regional one, but this either involved tapping into an existing idea (Britishness is older than Englishness, even) or of imposing an identity via cultural programs (as in France over the course of the several Revolutions) but even then it was an imposition of an existing idea, not a manufactured one.

I thought that would raise a Tory hackle. "National" identity in the Roman era was utterly different to the modern notion. And yet the Romans are ever the template that nations across Europe, from Germany to Turkey, have self-identified with. Roman identity was more about the horizontal strata of identity, rather than our vertical cut-offs based on the jurisdiction of a modern nation.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Vanilla, with sprinkles on top.

What about the Chocolate Chip Humanists?


I thought that would raise a Tory hackle. "National" identity in the Roman era was utterly different to the modern notion. And yet the Romans are ever the template that nations across Europe, from Germany to Turkey, have self-identified with. Roman identity was more about the horizontal strata of identity, rather than our vertical cut-offs based on the jurisdiction of a modern nation.

Romanitias meant different things at different times - but fundamentally it meant being part of the Roman Polis, that was not a purely horizontal matter.

If you'd like another example - Bede spoke of the "Britons" and the "English" long before there was any English, let alone British, state.

[Caratacus]

Seems like another in a long line of issues surrounding Israel. As if intolerance of Palestinians wasn't enough.

[Fragony]

[/COLOR]
Vanilla, with sprinkles on top.

Machiavelli was a humanist, comes in different flavours

[Greyblades]

What about the Chocolate Chip Humanists?

Dead, they accidentally had a group meeting doublebooked with a pregnancy cravings support group, didnt stand a chance.

[Idaho]

What about the Chocolate Chip Humanists?



Romanitias meant different things at different times - but fundamentally it meant being part of the Roman Polis, that was not a purely horizontal matter.

If you'd like another example - Bede spoke of the "Britons" and the "English" long before there was any English, let alone British, state.

What's in a name? Describing the population of a landmass with a word is a long way from declaring a national identity in the modern sense.

[Sir Moody]

That's the premise behind Star Trek. Except they use 2 big wars.

one of which was a Nuclear war... I kinda hope in this case life doesn't imitate art

[Papewaio]

Dead, they accidentally had a group meeting doublebooked with a pregnancy cravings support group, didnt stand a chance.

Buns in the oven typically get you in a pickle.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What's in a name? Describing the population of a landmass with a word is a long way from declaring a national identity in the modern sense.

He wasn't naming people on a landmass, he was describing a people.

[Idaho]

You are seeing recognisable phrasing and assuming that the vast array of beliefs and preconceptions behind those phrases are common across the ages.

[Rhyfelwyr]

That's a bit of a cart before the horse. National identity was something constructed by industrial states.

Are you saying that industrialised nation states generated their own sense of national identity (eg Britain as an industrialised nation state generated British nationalism)? Or are you saying that nationalism is a more general consequence of industrialisation that doesn't necessarily correspond to existing state borders (eg Hungarian, Slovak, Croation nationalism under Austria-Hungaria)?

The two would be quite different arguments so I want to make sure I know where you are coming from...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You are seeing recognisable phrasing and assuming that the vast array of beliefs and preconceptions behind those phrases are common across the ages.

No - I'm not. I've said several times that "Nationalism" has taken different forms across history, but to say it was somehow manufactured in its current form during the Renaissance is clearly wrong.

[Strike For The South]

The man who argues for class, once again argues for class. The man who argues for culture, once again argues for culture.

Hax tries to brings us together, once again, he fails

I'll sleep well tonight.

[lars573]

In Halo and Mass Effect, they both have governments for "Beyond Earth" and this acts as the governmental body of mankind which is like the UN, but Earth is still fractured... strange reality.
Actually in Halo Humanity is ruled by a military dictatorship. In a situation sort of like Imperial Germany in WWI. But with a much better ultimate outcome.


one of which was a Nuclear war... I kinda hope in this case life doesn't imitate art
You never know.

[Hax]

The man who argues for class, once again argues for class. The man who argues for culture, once again argues for culture.

Hax tries to brings us together, once again, he fails

I'll sleep well tonight.

I was drunk when I wrote that. I think.

[Husar]

The man who argues for class, once again argues for class. The man who argues for culture, once again argues for culture.

Hax tries to brings us together, once again, he fails

I'll sleep well tonight.

The cynic SFTS, once again, leaves a cynic comment.

Really now, you should be happy there are so many conservatives here.

[Kralizec]

Dead, they accidentally had a group meeting doublebooked with a pregnancy cravings support group, didnt stand a chance.

That was just the killing stroke, they never really recovered after the Sesame Street Massacre. That the cookie monster was never even indicted really gets me.

[Kadagar_AV]

Did I mention that I believe Hitler used the wrong methods on the right group?

[Visor]

Did I mention that I believe Hitler used the wrong methods on the right group?

So he should have turned the heat up a bit more to really roast them all then kadagar? That be acceptable?

[Kadagar_AV]

So he should have turned the heat up a bit more to really roast them all then kadagar? That be acceptable?

Seems like an odd way to interpret what I said.

I respect Jews as a cultural group, and I am a supporter of a Jewish state. With that said, I don't want Jews in my culture or in my state.

[Kival]

Seems like an odd way to interpret what I said.

I respect Jews as a cultural group, and I am a supporter of a Jewish state. With that said, I don't want Jews in my culture or in my state.

What the hell? This is a joke? Right? Just to pick the probably best known: You wouldn't want an Einstein in your "cultury or your state"?

[Hax]

Yes, those damned Jews with their proselytisation and susceptibleness to nationalist ideas!

Except that Theodor Hertzl's ideas on Zionism wasn't received positively by Jews living in western Europe, who (mostly) identified as citizens of y state firstly, and "Jewish" secondly. Where his ideas did find resonance was in eastern Europe, where violent pogroms against Jews were far more common. Interestingly, most of these Ashkenazi Jews from eastern Europe migrated either to the United States, where they formed the right-wing Zionist Jewish community, or migrated to Palestine/Israel.

Oh, and you can't really become a Jew if your mother isn't Jewish. Then again, there are some Jewish traditions that accept proselytisation, but the process is long and difficult.

So your points don't really make any sense at all. But if you could kindly remove yourself from "my European mainland", I don't really like people like you. Can't you go back to Sweden or something?

[Papewaio]

Seems like an odd way to interpret what I said.

I respect Jews as a cultural group, and I am a supporter of a Jewish state. With that said, I don't want Jews in my culture or in my state.

Considering how interconnected we now are you probably have happily absorbed several memes of Jewish culture origin.

For instance what are your five favourite movies?

[Kadagar_AV]

Wait... It's not OK to believe that a nation state would be better off not having a minority in it that has stuck together for thousands of years with a whole other religious and political agenda than said nation state?

Einstein could have done humanity as much good in Israel as in the US.

[Hax]

You can't apply the 19th-century concept of nation-states on the status of ethnic and/or religious minorities. It doesn't really make sense.


Einstein could have done humanity as much good in Israel as in the US.

You really think so?

[Papewaio]

Einstein turned down the presidency of the fledging Israeli state.

Jews like Christians have many groups and subgroups who often don't get along. They are hardly a homogenous group in every aspect. One only has to look at Australian Rules Football to see they don't all barrack for the same team.

On top of that add in Ultra-Orthodox & secular Jews to the mix and you have a pretty diverse groups.

It's like saying all Scandinavians are in alignment on culture, food, language, fashion and religion.

[Kadagar_AV]

Einstein turned down the presidency of the fledging Israeli state.

Jews like Christians have many groups and subgroups who often don't get along. They are hardly a homogenous group in every aspect. One only has to look at Australian Rules Football to see they don't all barrack for the same team.

On top of that add in Ultra-Orthodox & secular Jews to the mix and you have a pretty diverse groups.

It's like saying all Scandinavians are in alignment on culture, food, language, fashion and religion.

No, it's like saying all Scandinavians are (way) MORE in alignment on culture, food, language, fashion and religion than we are with the Jews.

[Montmorency]

Did you not notice that you committed the very same fallacy?

[Kadagar_AV]

You can't apply the 19th-century concept of nation-states on the status of ethnic and/or religious minorities. It doesn't really make sense.



It does where I live.


You really think so?

Of course not. Not at the time. But then, if Einstein would have been patriotic (or matriotic in the case of Jews?) we could have had a blooming and peaceful Israelic state along with later peacetime nuclear programs. No?

[Papewaio]

No, it's like saying all Scandinavians are (way) MORE in alignment on culture, food, language, fashion and religion than we are with the Jews.

So by your statements Austrians have a legitimate right to kick you out of the country as you are a Scandinavian and are too tightly aligned within the Scandinavian culture to fit in as you might introduce them to Scandinavian concepts.

[Kadagar_AV]

So by your statements Austrians have a legitimate right to kick you out of the country as you are a Scandinavian and are too tightly aligned within the Scandinavian culture to fit in as you might introduce them to Scandinavian concepts.

I am half Austrian and half Swedish. Even have two passports (got this whole James Bond jibe as I travel).

I am doing my utmost here to adhere to Austrian terms though, and it would be FAR from my mind to start asking Austria or Austrians to change because of my other cultural heritage. I left Sweden to come here for a reason, and I am just happy that they have accepted me and welcomed me.

Sure, I will still root for Sweden in ice hockey FOREVER, but it would honestly be FAR from my mind to try to force Swedish principles upon Austrians or Austria.

[Hax]

asking Austria or Austrians to change because of my other cultural heritage.

..because Jews have done this?


It does where I live.

Not really. Seeing how religious and ethnic minorities have always been around ever since the concept of human society came up, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. You could just as well argue that Rome was a failure because they didn't have electricity.

[Kadagar_AV]

..because Jews have done this?

Read:


I am doing my utmost here to adhere to Austrian terms

Because Jews have done this?

[Hax]

..yes?

[Kadagar_AV]

..yes?

No.

EDIT: It's not like they wore lederhosen while eating schnitzel, was it?

[Kival]

No.

EDIT: It's not like they wore lederhosen while eating schnitzel, was it?

Actually,.. they did. And that's only a bayuwarian thing, even some non-jew bayuwarians don't like to follow. A great part of the jews in germany identified themselves as germans first, jews second. Jews also were with the first guys who transcendended nationalistic thoughts and saw themself as "people of the world". Of course that was mostly forced upon them by the Nazis. It is utterly wrong to think jews in western europa were not integrated into the culture and society. Some of the most prestigious and well known figures of westeuropean culture and science were jews! Of course we are not speaking about orthodox jews here, but especially in Western Europa they always were a minority. A strong part of the jews in Western Europe were and are secular jews.

[HoreTore]

Mattias Gardell retold the history of the first Jew coming to Sweden in his book "Islamophobia". It was one guy, a furniture maker IIRC, and it sparked a zillion laws and provision before he was finally allowed to live in Stockholm. With heavy restrictions, of course, as he was the spawn of Satan.

Hilarious stuff, and Kadagar's posting seems to suggest the mindset is still alive. Ah well, Eastern Europe will always be a barbaric place...

[Kival]

I'm quite sure Sweden is far less xenophobic than most other parts of Europe.

[Kadagar_AV]

I'm in Austria though.

We take schnitzel seriously here...

[Greyblades]

I'm quite sure Sweden is far less xenophobic than most other parts of Europe.

That says less about the virtues of sweden and more of the cruddyness of the rest of europe.

[HoreTore]

I'm quite sure Sweden is far less xenophobic than most other parts of Europe.

Olof Palme did a lot to right Sweden's wrongs.


Of course it had to be a Latvian immigrant who fixed Sweden, the natives are a lost cause....

[Kival]

I'm in Austria though.

We take schnitzel seriously here...

HoreTore was speaking about Sweden.


That says less about the virtues of sweden and more of the cruddyness of the rest of europe.

It says neither.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think there is something to be said for having a common culture and mentality with your neighbours. Although we are always told the benefits of living in a cosmopolitan society with its diversity etc, I think you really do lose something when you step away from more traditional, homogenous communities. Mixing cultures is both a cause and a symptom of social breakdown. When a community loses the very features that make it a community (eg attending a local church, a local pub, sharing the same festivals etc), then it ceases to be a community.

This thinking isn't the preserve of the far-right - look for example at the likes of Rousseau. He idealised small, rural and homogenous communities that could produce their own organic culture, and because of that and their shared identity, they were able to share a general will that was the basis for democracy (true democracy, not representative government I should add). I think that he is right in that respect - people do need to have certain principles in common to live happily in the same society under one government.

Of course, how far the mixing of cultures contributes to this breakdown depends on how compatible the cultures in question are. A Swede living in Austria will fare better than a Somalian in Birmingham.

As for the issue with Jews being discussed here... the resentment and conspiracies some people aim against them is ridiculous. I don't really give any concerns about Jewish Britons because they aren't coming into the country in droves, and so while the fact that their cultural differences might alienate them is not ideal, it's not a big deal either. Although I also wouldn't particularly care if a guy like Einstein came from the same state as me - that alone isn't going to make me identify with him.

[HoreTore]

Your first paragraph contained every swearword I can imagine, Rhy....

You potty-mouth.

[Papewaio]

I'm in Austria though.

We take schnitzel seriously here...

We know all too well how seriously you take hammering tender meat. :smoking:

[Kadagar_AV]

Dude! Not when I have beer in my mouth!!

[a completely inoffensive name]

I think there is something to be said for having a common culture and mentality with your neighbours. Although we are always told the benefits of living in a cosmopolitan society with its diversity etc, I think you really do lose something when you step away from more traditional, homogenous communities. Mixing cultures is both a cause and a symptom of social breakdown. When a community loses the very features that make it a community (eg attending a local church, a local pub, sharing the same festivals etc), then it ceases to be a community.

The only thing you lose is a false sense of security in your lifestyle. Homogeneous cultures breed stagnation and repression. Best not get too familiar with the slaves, we don't want the post coital discussion revealing their inner human now do we?

It becomes more difficult to find common principles when you have a very diverse community because as it turns out, many of the common principles people want to live by are simply manifestations of their own lifestyle and philosophy. That's why the US has the shortest, vaguest and longest lasting Constitution, precisely because the common principles to live by turn out to be a relatively few number of individual rights that allow for a very culturally diverse country to continue to operate with the vast majority now believing we are all "Americans" together, despite our differences.

Preserving culture is just a nice phrase for saying "denying information". By keeping the clan homogeneous, we make sure that everyone is kept in the dark about others. Which makes people more easily manipulated and overall makes for a worse government. Rousseau is only correct if you add the stipulation that every community will behave in an isolationist manner. Otherwise his whole argument is bunk and would only lead to what amounts to tribal wars across the globe.

[Kadagar_AV]

The only thing you lose is a false sense of security in your lifestyle. Homogeneous cultures breed stagnation and repression. Best not get too familiar with the slaves, we don't want the post coital discussion revealing their inner human now do we?

It becomes more difficult to find common principles when you have a very diverse community because as it turns out, many of the common principles people want to live by are simply manifestations of their own lifestyle and philosophy. That's why the US has the shortest, vaguest and longest lasting Constitution, precisely because the common principles to live by turn out to be a relatively few number of individual rights that allow for a very culturally diverse country to continue to operate with the vast majority now believing we are all "Americans" together, despite our differences.

Preserving culture is just a nice phrase for saying "denying information". By keeping the clan homogeneous, we make sure that everyone is kept in the dark about others. Which makes people more easily manipulated and overall makes for a worse government. Rousseau is only correct if you add the stipulation that every community will behave in an isolationist manner. Otherwise his whole argument is bunk and would only lead to what amounts to tribal wars across the globe.

No.

Just no.

Some cultures have evolved through blood sweat and tears to be where they are at. (and it's an ongoing struggle)

The idea of filling up a nation with less hard struggling cultures seem absolutely horrid to me, as I have seen the impact it has on society.

[a completely inoffensive name]

No.

Just no.

Some cultures have evolved through blood sweat and tears to be where they are at.

The idea of filling up a nation with less hard struggling cultures seem absolutely horrid to me, as I have seen the impact it has on society.


Oh yes, I forgot about the hard struggling culture that fosters the strongest and most culturally advanced womanizing ski instructors. All these lesser cultures that Europeans conquered, divided up and subjected are lesser in spite of the centuries of European meddling, not due to it!

You think being the exploited is harsh, try being the exploiter.

[Kadagar_AV]

Oh yes, I forgot about the hard struggling culture that fosters the strongest and most culturally advanced womanizing ski instructors. All these lesser cultures that Europeans conquered, divided up and subjected are lesser in spite of the centuries of European meddling, not due to it!

You think being the exploited is harsh, try being the exploiter.

I'm not in favour of national supremacy, I am in favour of "fix your own damn nation".

Can you tell the difference?

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm not in favour of national supremacy, I am in favour of "fix your own damn nation".

Can you tell the difference?

Which apparently involves kicking out the Jews?

It's easy to say fix your own damn nation when you actively prohibit them from achieving progress on their terms. Neither you nor I have any moral or reasonable high ground here when for example Islamic immigrants come to Europe to live. They were fixing their countries until they made decisions that Western Europe and US didn't like, like nationalizing oil fields. Only a few like Nasser if I recall were able to evade or prevent the Euro/US intervention that soon followed attempts of self reliance.

[Kadagar_AV]

Which apparently involves kicking out the Jews?

It's easy to say fix your own damn nation when you actively prohibit them from achieving progress on their terms. Neither you nor I have any moral or reasonable high ground here when for example Islamic immigrants come to Europe to live. They were fixing their countries until they made decisions that Western Europe and US didn't like, like nationalizing oil fields. Only a few like Nasser if I recall were able to evade or prevent the Euro/US intervention that soon followed attempts of self reliance.

Well, the jews HAVE a nation. Go there and fix it.

The other alternative imho is to adhere to the nation state your in.

And yes, we in the west suck the marrow out of the third world. I'm not in favour of it, but I decided to hide in the alps, share my passion for skiing to anyone who asks, and thus get a karma balance.

With that said, I am a staunch supporter of "fix your own damn nation".

Any third world country could close the borders, make it functional, and THEN go out on the market asking for the highest bidder for their gear.

[Papewaio]

All Jews living in Israel makes as much sense as:

All Catholics/Christians living in Vatican City.

All Buddhists living in Tibet.

All Muslims living in Saudi Arabia.

[Kival]

Well, the jews HAVE a nation. Go there and fix it.

The other alternative imho is to adhere to the nation state your in.

You do realize that Israel as a Nation was created artificially because jews had been expulsed and murdered? There was no common jewish culture, that was a pure imagination of zionists and antisemits. In western europe jews were and the rest who stayed still are primarily western Europeans. What the hell makes you even think jews in western Europa are not culturally european? The religon? That doesn't differ so much from Christianity and also the big majority of jews is not really religious (as is the big majority of Christians in Western Europe...)

[Fisherking]

All Jews living in Israel makes as much sense as:

All Catholics/Christians living in Vatican City.

All Buddhists living in Tibet.

All Muslims living in Saudi Arabia.

Sounds like a plan to me.

Can we get them all out of our hair?

Now where do we send all those damned protestants?

[Hax]

Germany.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Sounds like a plan to me.

Can we get them all out of our hair?

Now where do we send all those damned protestants?

The USA. They came to do the persecuting. You are our solution to the protestant problem.

[Kival]

Germany.

I don't think most Protestants from the U.S. would like the "EKD" (Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland = protestant church in germany).