When did Armenia develop cataphracts

[seleucid empire]

When did Armenians develop cataphracts?

And why ( it was very mountainous wasn't it?) and how

[Arjos]

It all started with tribes in the steppe around the 8-7th century BCE, everybody else had species too small, which at best could draw a chariot...

Iirc, with the cimmerian incursions, Biainili (Urartu) and the Assyrians, quickly adopted it, and started to breed their own...
Also the Persians, were such a tribe and they kept their traditions...
Ofc, back then I don't think they could remotely resemble a sassanid armoured horse, for example, they must've been lighter...

Re: geography, it should have quite a lot of flat highlands actually...

[seleucid empire]

Hmmm, i thought that the first cavalry that used shock tactics was the army of Phillip of Macedonia. Before that the Persian cavalry just fought melee or skirmished. So I thought the cataphracts came to Armenia some time after alexanders death. I didn't know they were around at the time of the Assyrian empire

[Arjos]

They still favoured the bow, but were provided with a pike...
Although the armour was the real advantage, because the Babylonians and people in northern Arabia, didn't have any for the cavalry at that time I think...

About Hellas and Makedonia, pretty sure it was the Thessalians, who managed to keep their steppe warfare; early macedonian depictions, show very light horses, with barely clothed riders, with the typical macedonian hat...
There are also theories, that it was the period under persian rule, with the campaigning Shahanshah, that introduced the idea of personal bodyguards and elite "regiments" in Makedonia...
These state Anûšiya (translated as "immortals" by Herodotos), means "companions", hence the sudden appearance of hetairoi, which at first were hoplitai, after the persian retreat/expulsion...
Before there were shepherds levied bands pretty much...

[jirisys]

When did Armenians develop cataphracts?

And why ( it was very mountainous wasn't it?) and how

Depends what you consider as Armenia and Cataphracts.

~Jirisys ()

[seleucid empire]

Depends what you consider as Armenia and Cataphracts.

~Jirisys ()

Like those present at Carrhae. Completely armoured from head to toe including the horses. Used a kontos lance and used the shock of their charge to eat through the roman formations

And by Armenia I'm thinking about maybe tigranes the greats empire

[Arjos]

To exclude Bianili from armenian history is like saying the Normans and Anglo-Saxons have nothing to do with England...

Also, "Cataphractus and kamāndār: Some Thoughts on the Dynamic Evolution of Heavy Cavalry and Mounted Archers in Iran and Central Asia" (http://www.academia.edu/1898172/Potts_2012_-_Cataphractus_and_kamandar_BAI_21_), start from there and reach your own conclusions...

BTW "eat through"? Sorry, nothing of the sort, if you read accounts of the battle, it says how they charged and retreated, in many waves, thinning numbers, trying to force soldiers to either leave the formation or give up...

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

The only account I've seen of cataphracts smashing through a prepared line in a single charge is Magnesia. And there Antiochus had quite a few cataphracts, 4,000 on either wing IIRC.

[seleucid empire]

To exclude Bianili from armenian history is like saying the Normans and Anglo-Saxons have nothing to do with England...

Also, "Cataphractus and kamāndār: Some Thoughts on the Dynamic Evolution of Heavy Cavalry and Mounted Archers in Iran and Central Asia" (http://www.academia.edu/1898172/Potts_2012_-_Cataphractus_and_kamandar_BAI_21_), start from there and reach your own conclusions...

BTW "eat through"? Sorry, nothing of the sort, if you read accounts of the battle, it says how they charged and retreated, in many waves, thinning numbers, trying to force soldiers to either leave the formation or give up...

I know, i was exaggerating. Im aware of the repeated charges at carrhae. The point I was trying to make was that i was talking about those really, really, really heavily armoured cataphracts.

I know I can't exclude the early ones, but I was wondering if they led to the formation of the Armenia cataphracts over hundreds of years (The one available for Hayasdan in EB) OR if something else made them drastically reform their cavalry in a very short time (e.g. a disaster facing the Parthians etc.)

[ZalWel]

Here is an interesting video. It also contains some references to Armenian cataphracts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9nZU6D-NBg

[vartan]

Armenians have been using cavalry since at least the 9th century BC, as far as I remember. At least three centuries before this as well, if you have in mind horse-drawn chariot units in the Hittite Empire. I think Assyrians may have been one of the first to field proper horse-and-rider-only cavalry units in the field, again around 9th BC.

Armenians continued to field cavalry during the time of revolts and uprising, as Darius was first coming to power after the death of Cyrus in the Achaemenid Persian Empire. To track the development of Armenian cataphracts, I would track the development of Persian cataphracts. Considering the political and social ties through the last half of the 1st millennium BC, I would estimate more or less parallel track developments. I'm not sure if they are technically 'cataphracts' as per what you would call catas in the later Roman sense. But I am quite certain they can fall under that umbrella under the term as it may be applied in the Hellenistic era.

And about the land, no, it's not entirely mountains. You're thinking of Georgia (shout out to my Georgian friends!). Plenty of land where horses were bred. Ponies OP, comrade ^^

[Unintended BM]

Good post Vartan.

[jirisys]

Armenians have been using cavalry since at least the 9th century BC, as far as I remember. At least three centuries before this as well, if you have in mind horse-drawn chariot units in the Hittite Empire.

If you want to consider chariots, the only reason the Hittites and the Assyrians got good at them was because of the Mitanni and the great Kikkuli.

~Jirisys ()

[vartan]

If you want to consider chariots, the only reason the Hittites and the Assyrians got good at them was because of the Mitanni and the great Kikkuli.

~Jirisys ()

Your flattery of IE cousins of the Armenians is duly noted on recycled-paper notepad.

[jirisys]

Your flattery of IE cousins of the Armenians is duly noted on recycled-paper notepad.

Weird uncles. Not cousins. Respect your elders, kid.

~Jirisys ()

[Cyclops]

...Also, "Cataphractus and kamāndār: Some Thoughts on the Dynamic Evolution of Heavy Cavalry and Mounted Archers in Iran and Central Asia" (http://www.academia.edu/1898172/Potts_2012_-_Cataphractus_and_kamandar_BAI_21_), start from there and reach your own conclusions......

Thats a wonderful link, thank you. Geez, heavy cav with lance and barding in Assyrian times? Obviously rare and maybe just a few elite warriors, but the tradition is centuries pre-EB. I have so little knowledge of central Asia (I only found out the difference between Turan and Iran in the last ten years from an academic mate).