Holy Father Benedict XVI resigns the Papacy

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Link to NBC News Clip:
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/50775884/#50775884

Pope Benedict the XVI is resigning effective at the end of the month, the first Holy Father to do so since Gregory XII in 1415 (the last portion of Medieval:Total War for those of you who still play our namesake games).

Most Catholics, even including his aides, have been surprised by the decision. I myself was surprised, as I had read that it was then Cardinal Ratzinger's advice to John Paul II (Magnus and soon Sanctus) not to retire but to let his death end his office.

As an aside, there are few "rules" governing the treatment of an ex-Holy Father as the position is far rarer than the Papacy. He does not revert to Cardinal, though Gregory was re-appointed a cardinal by his successor upon leaving the Holy See. He retains his title of Bishop automatically as that is accorded by sacrament. His announced plans are for a period of contemplation at Castle Gandolfo followed by a monastic retreat at the Vatican itself (renovations must be completed first). He has no announced plans beyond this point. It is expected that his upkeep (required by Canon Law) will still be maintained by the Holy See itself.

After a brief period of time with his seat vacant (sede vacante), the Cardinals will meet in Conclave to choose a new Holy Father.

It will be interesting to see the changes this will bring to the Church.

[HopAlongBunny]

Interesting.

The retirement can be seen as an innovation and by a Pope usually described as a staunch conservative. I doubt its a signal to further innovation and creativity in church governance, but it does show you can colour within the lines in novel ways.

[Fragony]

Benedexit

[Fisherking]

Oh woe is me. Just when we get past the Mayan Calendar we drop into the Prophecy of St. Malachy.

Anyone know of the Prophecy of the Popes?

The next is supposed to be the last Pope and Rome will be destroyed, along with the church.

Some have said there was a lightning strike when the pope made his announcement to resign. That adds an ominous note to the whole thing. ~:eek:

We live in interesting times.
~:rolleyes:

[Ironside]

Interesting.

The retirement can be seen as an innovation and by a Pope usually described as a staunch conservative. I doubt its a signal to further innovation and creativity in church governance, but it does show you can colour within the lines in novel ways.

Personal guess. He's suffering from increasing dementia. It's implied in his resignation speech as well.

I can see a staunch conservative resigning over that.

[Kival]

Personal guess. He's suffering from increasing dementia. It's implied in his resignation speech as well.

I can see a staunch conservative resigning over that.

It's also not so surprising. When it had been discussed if the former papst was still fit enough to hold the position, he always argued that the papst needs to be fit in body and mind.

[Sarmatian]

Pope Benedict XVI later explained that his resignation was mostly due to poorer than expected results in the last quarter. Catholic church acknowledged a drop of staggering 4.7% in child molestations. Benedict XVI took full responsibility for the fall, but also said that some of it was due to forces "beyond his control", like police force and higher-than-average number of children willing to report molestation.

Vatican stocks also nosedived after the statistics showed that condom sales were up last year. A cardinal, who wished to remain anonymous, said the Pope looked "a defeated man". "His hopes of bringing the church closer to its fire and brimstone roots dashed after that.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Plus, the Vactian lost its banking licence.

[HoreTore]

I had coffee all over myself yesterday morning because of this.

I didn't even know it was possible. Forced resignations in the wild west we call the middle ages, okay, but a resignation now? I would've thought there was some kind of "regency" with a cardinal taking the reigns if the pope was unable to performs his duties. Further, the Norwegian catholics interviewed here seems to think he will go back to his theological writing, and if that's true it's not because of mental problems.

If any catholics here would like to make a long rambling posts on every thought, speculation and knowledge they have of this, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Greyblades]

Ok.
I condemn every pope in the modern age who hasn't and every pope from now on for not declaring a second reformation and having every paedophile priest burned at the stake. Faced with such obvious and insidious evil the fact that the ultimate "good guy" in this farce of a religion is helping kiddy fiddlers get away with crimes is disgusting. The policy of genital mutilation of African girls is an abomination to they very notion of being servants of the kind and loving god. They are actively aiding in the spread of the most insidious disease known to man by lying about and condemning the most effective means of containing it. They condemn homosexuals as wicked and claim they are that so through choice against all proof to the contrary. The Catholic Church now preaches the sanctity of life, abstinence is good, non-marital and gay sex is wicked, yet they are molesting little boys and mutilating little girls. They are a den of scum and hypocrisy that has done damage to Africa in the last 60-70 years that is second only to Leopold II. I curse the fact that I was baptized into this corrupt, deplorable, licentious religion and the only way it can redeem itself is if the next pope burns the vatican to the ground, preferably with the high clergy still inside.
Hows that for a long rambling post.

[Ronin]

thats gangsta giving something up for lent.

[HoreTore]

Very good rambling, Greyblades, but a minus for rambling on the wrong topic..

[Kralizec]

Ok. Hows that for a long rambling post.

The rambling is pretty impressive, you'll grow to become an excellent elderly citizen one day.

I'm pretty sure that female genital mutilation has nothing to do with catholicism, though. And I would preserve the Vatican, if only for the architecture.

As for the original topic...I'm not a fan of the catholic church, and less so of this Pope in particular because he was (arguably) more conservative than his predecessor. Aside from jokes about clergy, that's all I have to say about the matter.

[Greyblades]

Meh, I'm working off hate and faded memories of Chrisopher Hitchens and Stephen Fry's arguments (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2wzsaZKiGo), mistakes are going to be made, I still find the "mother church" to be at such a low the borgias would blush at it.


Very good rambling, Greyblades, but a minus for rambling on the wrong topic..
It's a topic on the pope and his succession, talking about the failings of the church and how the next one should act is on topic.

[Fisherking]

Evidentially the Pope decided back in March or Apr. that he would resign but kept it under wraps.

He offered the opinion when he was a Cardinal that popes should resign when they were too gone for the job.

Now, who is laying odds on a black pope?

[HoreTore]

"Black pope" sounds like a family guy cutaway...

[The Lurker Below]

This church has a bit of a following in Central and South America. New pope must be Latino. The next popemobile...

[Lemur]

Just kinda gobsmacked that this is the first papal resignation in 600 years.

[Sarmatian]

Evidentially the Pope decided back in March or Apr. that he would resign but kept it under wraps.

He offered the opinion when he was a Cardinal that popes should resign when they were too gone for the job.

Now, who is laying odds on a black pope?

I think I read somewhere that he actually advised Wojtyla not to resign.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It has been revealed today that the Holy Father was fitted with a pacemaker some time ago - he's clearly no longer fit and probably suffering under the stress of the job.

Aside from that, his resignation allows him to influence the choice of his successor, and then the direction of the Church, by ensuring the College is just as he wishes it to be prior to the election. Waiting until his own death risks his theological allies dieing before he does.

[Kival]

I think I read somewhere that he actually advised Wojtyla not to resign.

That's strange. Do you think you may find the source?

[Beskar]

That's strange. Do you think you may find the source?

I know the BBC said the same in an article, advising John Paul II to wait until death. However, the Article which was also the one which said about the Pope stepping down was deleted/moved into cyberspace oblivion.

[HopAlongBunny]

I saw the same article, which I cannot find now.

I am interested though, does a retired Pope remain "infallible"? While the world seems to operate smoothly during the brief time of no infallible human (while a new pope is selected) can the world survive 2 infallible humans at the same time?

End of days? :freak:

[Kralizec]

It has been revealed today that the Holy Father was fitted with a pacemaker some time ago - he's clearly no longer fit and probably suffering under the stress of the job.

Aside from that, his resignation allows him to influence the choice of his successor, and then the direction of the Church, by ensuring the College is just as he wishes it to be prior to the election. Waiting until his own death risks his theological allies dieing before he does.

According to a Dutch news source (which is no good to you people, I suppose) it's been recently revealed that he had a pacemaker for years, simply didn't feel the need to disclose that fact, and that it has nothing to do with his decision.

Here's a BBC article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21430737) for people who can't be arsed to learn Dutch.

[Kival]

I saw the same article, which I cannot find now.

I am interested though, does a retired Pope remain "infallible"? While the world seems to operate smoothly during the brief time of no infallible human (while a new pope is selected) can the world survive 2 infallible humans at the same time?

End of days? :freak:

No. The pope isn't meant ot be "infallible" as person but only in function and only when he speaks "ex cathedra", which really doesn't happen often. A pope who has retired isn't a pope anymore and can't speak ex cathedra anymore.

[Kralizec]

No. The pope isn't meant ot be "infallible" as person but only in function and only when he speaks "ex cathedra", which really doesn't happen often. A pope who has retired isn't a pope anymore and can't speak ex cathedra anymore.

I sort of knew that, but I always wondered about one thing. How and when do you know wether a statement from the Pope was Ex Cathedra? Is it accompanied by a formula, like, <ex_cathedra>....</ex_cathedra>, or is it a matter of interpretation? If it's the latter, it seems awfully...imprecise, since the whole idea is that an Ex Cathedra statement is infallible and can never be contradicted by later Popes. Ultimate state decisis, if you will.

I was also going to ask wether excommunications are really all lifted as soon as a Pope dies or abdicates, but I'm almost certain that was just a game mechanic.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I sort of knew that, but I always wondered about one thing. How and when do you know wether a statement from the Pope was Ex Cathedra? Is it accompanied by a formula, like, <ex_cathedra>....</ex_cathedra>, or is it a matter of interpretation? If it's the latter, it seems awfully...imprecise, since the whole idea is that an Ex Cathedra statement is infallible and can never be contradicted by later Popes. Ultimate state decisis, if you will.

I was also going to ask wether excommunications are really all lifted as soon as a Pope dies or abdicates, but I'm almost certain that was just a game mechanic.

There's a formula.

According to Vatican I

[HoreTore]

I sort of knew that, but I always wondered about one thing. How and when do you know wether a statement from the Pope was Ex Cathedra? Is it accompanied by a formula, like, <ex_cathedra>....</ex_cathedra>, or is it a matter of interpretation? If it's the latter, it seems awfully...imprecise, since the whole idea is that an Ex Cathedra statement is infallible and can never be contradicted by later Popes. Ultimate state decisis, if you will.

I was also going to ask wether excommunications are really all lifted as soon as a Pope dies or abdicates, but I'm almost certain that was just a game mechanic.

Ding ding ding!

Didn't the pope urge for a peaceful resulotion to the arab spring? Obama ignored his request and bombed Libya, undoubtably causing the excommunication of his warmongering behind. Faced with 25% unhappiness all over the US and with plenty of cardinals due to an american theologians guild HQ and massive priest-spamming in muslim countries, he figured it was time to assasinate the pope and have a new election with the deck stacked in his favour!

There, sorted it all out for you.

[Kival]

I sort of knew that, but I always wondered about one thing. How and when do you know wether a statement from the Pope was Ex Cathedra? Is it accompanied by a formula, like, <ex_cathedra>....</ex_cathedra>, or is it a matter of interpretation? If it's the latter, it seems awfully...imprecise, since the whole idea is that an Ex Cathedra statement is infallible and can never be contradicted by later Popes. Ultimate state decisis, if you will.

It's more like accompanied by a formula. It's quite clear when it's ex cathedra and when not.




Didn't the pope urge for a peaceful resulotion to the arab spring? Obama ignored his request and bombed Libya, undoubtably causing the excommunication of his warmongering behind. ...


I didn't know Obama was a Catholic.

[Kralizec]

There's a formula.

teach me teach me teach me

[Papewaio]

Dementia is a gradual slide. Some days you are fine, others you are bad. The terror in the eyes of a sufferer who realizes on a good day how bad his last couple was is a sad thing to behold.

So whilst he might have good enough days to write theology, if the Pope has dementia he will gradually not be able to function as a head of state/church as at that level you need to string together as many good days as possible.

Also it might create a situation where he is medically unfit to pronounce something that is Ex Cathedra... I'm not sure how the Catholic Church would handle that.

[Strike For The South]

Sweet, another generation of conservatism, which means continuing to pull out of Latin girls from the local bodega.

It's good to know there is some consistency in life.

[Sigurd]

I'm pretty sure that female genital mutilation has nothing to do with catholicism, though.
I was about to inject a similar objection.. then I applied some googlefu and apparently the rambling is warranted.

[Pannonian]

I saw the same article, which I cannot find now.

I am interested though, does a retired Pope remain "infallible"? While the world seems to operate smoothly during the brief time of no infallible human (while a new pope is selected) can the world survive 2 infallible humans at the same time?

End of days? :freak:

Before taking office, a pre-pope does not have guidance from heaven and thus is not an infallible authority. During office, a pope by virtue of his mandate has guidance from above, and thus is an infallible authority. After office, a pope no longer has that mandate, and thus is no longer infallible. The Mandate of Heaven means everything. Hang on, what are we talking about again?

[HoreTore]

Mandate of Heaven? Isn't that a chinese thing?

[Lemur]

I always wondered about one thing. How and when do you know wether a statement from the Pope was Ex Cathedra?
That's a darn good question. I could Google up an answer, but I am distracted by this silly thing called "work."

According to one of my more devout Papist friends, the Popes have spoken ex cathedra very few times, and only on relatively settled issues of theology. But as for the mechanism whereby they alert their audience that, "Hey, I'm going into inspired-by-God infallible mode"? No idea.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That's a darn good question. I could Google up an answer, but I am distracted by this silly thing called "work."

According to one of my more devout Papist friends, the Popes have spoken ex cathedra very few times, and only on relatively settled issues of theology. But as for the mechanism whereby they alert their audience that, "Hey, I'm going into inspired-by-God infallible mode"? No idea.

Not distracted by work as the grading is done and I have 30 minutes until departure. The following askacatholic (http://www.askacatholic.com/_WebPostings/Answers/2012_01JAN/2012JanHowDoIRecognizeAnExCathedraOne.cfm) answer provides a good summary.

[Beskar]

Some have said there was a lightning strike when the pope made his announcement to resign. That adds an ominous note to the whole thing. ~:eek:

Unfortunately, it isn't as exciting or mysterious when it comes 8 hours or so after the announcement. Though, the Pope going on the balcony then the lightning hitting him when he makes the announcement.. that would have really spurred peoples imagination.

[Sarmatian]

Unfortunately, it isn't as exciting or mysterious when it comes 8 hours or so after the announcement. Though, the Pope going on the balcony then the lightning hitting him when he makes the announcement.. that would have really spurred peoples imagination.

Don't know why, but I had a mental image of cartoon Ben Franklin going: Benedict, speak to me. Was it electricity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gMoC4Ckzy2E#t=246s

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Before taking office, a pre-pope does not have guidance from heaven and thus is not an infallible authority. During office, a pope by virtue of his mandate has guidance from above, and thus is an infallible authority. After office, a pope no longer has that mandate, and thus is no longer infallible. The Mandate of Heaven means everything. Hang on, what are we talking about again?

Rubbish

I'm sorry, but you just pulled that out of thin air.

All Catholic Clergy are ordained and therefore have received "grace" from another clergyman, almost always a Bishop - this is the theological point of the "laying on hands" where the Bishop touches the Ordinand's head as he is ordained.

The Pope is the Head of the Church - when he speaks as head of the Church​, literally ex cathedra or "from his episcopal throne" he is deemed to be infallable - and only​ then.

[Pannonian]

Rubbish

I'm sorry, but you just pulled that out of thin air.

All Catholic Clergy are ordained and therefore have received "grace" from another clergyman, almost always a Bishop - this is the theological point of the "laying on hands" where the Bishop touches the Ordinand's head as he is ordained.

The Pope is the Head of the Church - when he speaks as head of the Church​, literally ex cathedra or "from his episcopal throne" he is deemed to be infallable - and only​ then.
It was just a rubbish attempt at humour, to turn the question of authority from above into a pun on a completely different kind of authority. I know absolutely nothing about religious hierarchies or doctrines of any kind, and my beliefs are strictly secular.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Sounds like Benedict stood by his principles that if you are not able to do the job, you step down. I think that having an event that hasn't happened in 600 years is exciting although I will not be paying attention to the process anymore. Interested in learning about who they eventually pick though.

I don't understand why this would cause distress in Catholics.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sounds like Benedict stood by his principles that if you are not able to do the job, you step down. I think that having an event that hasn't happened in 600 years is exciting although I will not be paying attention to the process anymore. Interested in learning about who they eventually pick though.

I don't understand why this would cause distress in Catholics.

Well, Catholics tend towards the traditionalist side of things. As a church, we aren't renowned for leaping after change at the first opportunity. We have whole parishes were the pastor and congregation cheerfully attempt to ignore as many of the required changes to the liturgy etc. that were promulgated at the Vatican II council...in 1964. 49 years later we have folks who still want to do it the old way, largely because that is the way it was done when they were young.

Thus, a Holy Father resigning is....surprising at least.

I actually believe that there is a GOOD precedent being set here, as with Washington's refusal of a third term. A Holy Father whose frailty -- spiritual or mental -- diminshes their ability should have the option to self-select that it is time for another to walk in the shoes of the fisherman.

[Kralizec]

Seamus:
With all the speculation of a black or latin-american Pope; a more conservative or more "progressive" one...

Do you, as a practicing catholic, have an opinion on what sort of person should ideally be elected next?

(I hasten to add that the racial or national background would of be no interest to me, personally - but some feel differently about that)

-----------------------
Edit: link (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?92016-Pope-refused-meeting-with-Rice) for vintage backroom thread

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Seamus:
With all the speculation of a black or latin-american Pope; a more conservative or more "progressive" one...

Do you, as a practicing catholic, have an opinion on what sort of person should ideally be elected next?

(I hasten to add that the racial or national background would of be no interest to me, personally - but some feel differently about that)

-----------------------
Edit: link (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?92016-Pope-refused-meeting-with-Rice) for vintage backroom thread



I would hope for a Holy Father who would continue the ecumenical bridgework initiated under JP2.

I would hope for a Holy Father who would inspire and discipline the clergy to redouble their pastorial efforts in the many parishes of the Church. Those who have harmed their flocks must be removed from any position where they could harm others and, if that harm is criminal, should not be shielded from any secular punishment. Priests should be set apart from us only as enactors of the sacraments, they do not cease to be humans with human responsibilities to all people. The vast majority of priests live this out every day, working hard to set themselves apart as an example we should strive for, and not using Mother Church as a shield and a trap. The bad apples have harmed our church greatly and undercut much of her work. The new Holy Father will, I hope, be a staunch advocate of the highest ethical standards. Forgiveness and mercy are virtues, but it is also the shepherd's duty to protect their flock.

I would hope for a Holy Father who will continue the Church's stance on the sanctity of life from conception to natural death -- but would bear more consideration for efforts that prevent conception through some simple barrier means. Such efforts do prevent life from joining and enacting that miracle, but do not end that life once begun.

I would hope for a Holy Father who has a notch more youthful vigor at the outset of the Papacy. That said, there are few "utes" in the college, with the youngest being 55 years of age and the most bandied names Turkson (64), Sandri (69), Dolan (63), and Ouellet (68) all in their 7th decade.





As to ethnicity or culture, I have little concern. Mother Church has not been led by a non-European since Gregory III in 741 (Syrian born). It would be interesting to see a sub-Saharan African or New Worlder on Peter's throne. There is certainly a lot of sentiment towards such a selection....at least here in the New World.

[Strike For The South]

I need odds

[drone]

I need odds

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/02/11/pope-bookies.html

[gaelic cowboy]

I need odds

www.paddypower.com (http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_search&sClass=-1&sCriteria=pope)

paddy power ye cannot beat them for stunts (http://blog.paddypower.com/2013/02/13/yes-we-vati-can-money-back-if-the-cardinals-elect-the-first-black-pope/)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As of 1400 EST today, His Holiness will have resigned the papacy and the church will stand sede vacante until a new Holy Father is selected in conclave.

By canon law, that conclave must convene no more than 15 days following the end of the last papacy, though efforts are afoot to bring that start date forward from the minimum 10 days following the death of the seated Holy Father (since the vacancy was not engendered by a death and since the college is well aware of, and have made plans to attend already, the upcoming conclave).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Apparently, efforts at an early conclave have been sidelined in favor of politicking prior to a conclave (and being locked away from all those nice resteraunts etc.).

Just teasing. Conclave will start according to the normal schedule.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I understand they don't lock them in and feed them on bread and water any more.

I was in Vatican City during the preparations for the last Conclave, things must be going a bit nuts in Rome at the moment, even without the Dead Holy Father needing to be viewed and interred.

[Ronin]

today there was a meeting of the electing cardinals, but 2 of the 115 members did not attend.
because of this they were not able to schedule a date for the conclave........or form Voltron.

[HoreTore]

Voltron?

That's Captain Kirks friend, right?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Voltron?

That's Captain Kirks friend, right?

No, that's Spock. He is a Vulcan.

[Lemur]

I found this video remarkably helpful for understanding the process. (Not a Catholic, so corrections appreciated if the summary is inaccurate.)


http://youtu.be/kF8I_r9XT7A

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I seriously considered this, at one point.

[Beskar]

I seriously considered this, at one point.

You might have set them a good example.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You might have set them a good example.

Yeah, but I don't think I could fake it for forty years.

[Ronin]

Since i was baptized and had first communion I think it's better I clarify:

I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected.

[Greyblades]

I would... of course I would not last long, popes don't usually stay popes long when they've fired all the other clergy for negligence.

[Papewaio]

Yeah, but I don't think I could fake it for forty years.

Why not? The rest have... :creep:

[Beskar]

Yeah, but I don't think I could fake it for forty years.

Well, with the track record of the church, you would be set for Saintdom.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

There was a piece on NBC news suggesting that part of His Holiness' decision to resign was to (as is part of canon law) end the terms of service of pretty much every high officer of The Vatican. This would allow a new Holy Father to clean house by appointing persons who were not part of the past three decades of leadership (during which far too many covered up far too much, hurt people and hurt Mother Church while ostensibly trying to protect her). I do not know if this is a truthful assessment of Benedictus' decison, but the possibility of such a "new brooming" is certainly possible as canon law ended all of their terms of service at the same time as the papacy became sede vacante.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That doesn't sound all that credible given that Benedict didn't "clean house" himself very well, despite being one of the people best placed to know who needed to go.

[Ronin]

There was a piece on NBC news suggesting that part of His Holiness' decision to resign was to (as is part of canon law) end the terms of service of pretty much every high officer of The Vatican. This would allow a new Holy Father to clean house by appointing persons who were not part of the past three decades of leadership (during which far too many covered up far too much, hurt people and hurt Mother Church while ostensibly trying to protect her). I do not know if this is a truthful assessment of Benedictus' decison, but the possibility of such a "new brooming" is certainly possible as canon law ended all of their terms of service at the same time as the papacy became sede vacante.

but the new pope will be elected by those very same people.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As of 1235 EST, conclave is begun.

[Lemur]

That doesn't sound all that credible given that Benedict didn't "clean house" himself very well, despite being one of the people best placed to know who needed to go.
I dunno, some of the news reports I've read suggested that Benedict did, in fact, try to clean some things up, specifically the shenanigans at the Vatican Bank (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/world/europe/power-struggle-on-reforming-vatican-bank.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0).

Some in the Vatican are eager for change, but “you should not underestimate the resistance on issues of transparency” from tradition-bound forces, the European official said.

Under Benedict, the Vatican bank pledged to join the so-called white list of countries that meet international banking standards. In one of his final acts as pope, Benedict appointed a German aristocrat, Ernst von Freyberg, as the bank’s new president.

The appointment loosened the historic grip on Vatican finances by a small and tight-knit group of Italian insiders, some of whom had fiercely resisted efforts to come under outside scrutiny. They were protective of the bank as an essentially Italian institution, which critics said was perilously close to the country’s scandal-prone political and financial establishment.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

but the new pope will be elected by those very same people.

Some truth to that of course, yet remember that 67 of the 115 in conclave were appointed by Benedictus XVI. While many of those so appointed are unlikely to differ much from His Holiness in doctrinal terms, there is quite a lot of impetus to change...at least by the standards of Holy Mother Church.

I can tell you from personal experience that there have been some profound shifts in the ranks of the Bishops (and Cardinals) here in the USA. Many in the US church were profoundly angered and shamed by the misguided coverups begat by Cardinal Law and others.

[HoreTore]

Allright you Catholics, you've got some explaining to do!

I thought I had the signals figured out. Black smoke from the chimney means no pope, white smoke from the chimney means pope. Fine. But what the hell does seagull (http://www.businessinsider.com/seagull-on-vatican-chimney-2013-3) mean?!? Did you elect a bird, or what?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Habemus Papam!

This is a bit of a shocker. His Holiness Francis is an Argentinian (first time ever) Jesuit (first time ever). No real links yet, I'm watching live video of the event.

[Jack.]

I'm glad they picked a guy from the New World, the Church needs a "fresh" look on things in my view, and hopefully this will be a step in the right direction.

[HopAlongBunny]

He appears to be a humble, thoughtful man.

The "trappings of office" might be a bit of a shock for him, but his emphasis on poverty and simplicity might provide a shock for Vatican insiders.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

His Holiness is:

An argentine (First non European Pope since Syrian-born Gregory III died in 741), he is the first Holy Father from the New World.

A Jesuit (though he split with many fellow Jesuits on Liberation Theology, which he opposses).

A Doctrinal Conservative (Though seemingly a touch less doctrinaire than Benedictus or Magnus on issues of sexuality; hard to say).

A strong believer in social justice and mildly critical of free-market capitalism.

I think his choice of name is significant, as Saint Francis carries a strong cachet in favor of simple spiritualism, poverty and good works among Catholics in addition to the love of animals thingee.

His Holiness is apparently known for personal simplicity, trnding slightly towards austerity, and has eschewed a number of the perks associated with running a diocese.

[Ronin]

predictable, after all Messi...errr...I mean God is Argentinian

[HoreTore]

Anti-gay and anti-birth control, what's new?

[Idaho]

Anti-gay and anti-birth control, what's new?

Well he is the chief Catholic. What did you expect? A rational and progressive humanist?

[Ronin]

Anti-gay and anti-birth control, what's new?

possible connections to the military Junta in Argentina....accusations where made, but no definite proof was presented.

[johnhughthom]

Argentine Pope.

So, a Crusade on the Falklands then?

[HoreTore]

And as we all know, the Catholic Church was a fierce opponent of all the right-wing dictatorships in latin-america...

[Wodening]

I find it is interesting that the new pope is of Italian descent. His father was an Italian immigrant to Argentina. I am somehow not surprised about that given the number of Italian popes there have been. But at least they are getting away from Europe. It would have been nice to have had a pope from the United States. But then our cardinals are probably more progressive and therefore make poorer candidates in the eyes of the Church.

[Strike For The South]

Well

I just lost 20 bucks

[drone]

I'm confused. Benedict is alive, but there is a new pope. Is my faction still excommunicated? :inquisitive:

[Strike For The South]

I'm confused. Benedict is still alive, but there is a new pope. Is my faction still excommunicated? :inquisitive:


IF YOU JUST PUT PEASANTS IN THE PROVINCE THE ARMY WOULDN'T COME BACK AS STRONG

[Papewaio]

RL: Lets see how he handles the current set of crisis that have hit the church and if he can be an effective leader in restoring the faith in the higher echelon's. I hope it is done by deep seated restructuring not plastering over the problems.

=][=

TW: So he trained as a chemist. Gives him a bonus against factions attempting to assassinate him by bomb or poison. Not that any popes have ever been poisoned...

[Lemur]

Wow, is it just me, or was that really, really fast?

[Ronin]

Wow, is it just me, or was that really, really fast?

they took away their internet access.
now that is a subtle way to say "get of the kiddie websites and get the job done"

[HoreTore]

Was there any american who could've been elected without a schoolbus of children falling out of his closet?

[Wodening]

Was there any american who could've been elected without a schoolbus of children falling out of his closet?

Good point. Though that might be said of near anywhere in the Catholic world. We just hear about it more in the USA. I have no doubt that pedophilia is as common amongst Catholic priests of other countries given the Church's attempts to cover it up.

[Papewaio]

Wow, is it just me, or was that really, really fast?

Obviously Mrs Lemur has access to Mr Lemur's account right now... :smoking:

[Kival]

Anti-gay and anti-birth control, what's new?

The new pope is actually suprisingly somewhat of a leftist regarding economic politics and the welfare state. I really didn't think they would choose him.

[drone]

Wow, is it just me, or was that really, really fast?Obviously Mrs Lemur has access to Mr Lemur's account right now... :smoking:

Zing!

I was thinking the same thing though, they didn't waste any time. Makes me think Benedict greased the wheels a bit before leaving...

[Beskar]

Good point. Though that might be said of near anywhere in the Catholic world. We just hear about it more in the USA. I have no doubt that pedophilia is as common amongst Catholic priests of other countries given the Church's attempts to cover it up.

Ireland is a very big one.

[Major Robert Dump]

They really should have gone with the chinese guy. I demand a recount

[Rhyfelwyr]

This guy must have been well ahead of the pack to get the 2/3 majority so quickly. I'm surprised they went for another oldie. If this guy retires as well the position of Pope will really lose a lof of its aura/mystery surrounding it.


And as we all know, the Catholic Church was a fierce opponent of all the right-wing dictatorships in latin-america...

To be fair it's not as clear cut as you are making out. Liberation theology is a big thing there, and the US provides a lot of funding to Evangelical Protestant groups on that continent because Protestants are regarded as being more open to capitalism.

[Riedquat]

predictable, after all Messi...errr...I mean God is Argentinian

Messi is like Jesus while Diego keep being God! We have a trinity now...


possible connections to the military Junta in Argentina....accusations where made, but no definite proof was presented.

And never will of course, nobody opposing a de facto government would reach to pope, ever! You do not antagonize who can harm you, first rule of diplomatic engagement...


Argentine Pope.

So, a Crusade on the Falklands then?

:laugh4: No! :stare:


And as we all know, the Catholic Church was a fierce opponent of all the right-wing dictatorships in latin-america...

:bow:


I find it is interesting that the new pope is of Italian descent. His father was an Italian immigrant to Argentina. I am somehow not surprised about that given the number of Italian popes there have been.

Everybody here is an Italian descendant, if not Spaniard, son or grandson, those two nations together offered more than 75% of immigrant population in the past 150 years.


Also worth noting that Argentina was a favored destination for Nazis fleeing the Nuremburg years, for those who still like the Nazi-Pope angle. Just throwing it out there. :sweatdrop:

And there is the other 25%.. all nazi war criminals.. :no:


________________________________________________________________
:argentina::argentina::argentina:

[HopAlongBunny]

Liberation theology is tolerated in some segments of the church but it is not doctrine. Francis I is apparently opposed to it.

The last time I looked at this stuff Liberation theology was a "segregated doctrine"; it could be preached in some places and was discouraged in others ie: poor and powerless: sure, say whatever you want; rich and influential: don't you dare even raise it as a possible viewpoint.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I think the choice to resign prior to crippling old age is a positive precedent.

I think an American pope quite likely in the next 3 or 4 conclaves...after we have been surpassed as a great power by China.

I think those viewing this election on a purely political level do not gauge it correctly. These men moved as prompted by the Holy Spirit and their hopes for the future of the Church. Handicapping it like a parliamentary election does not fit the context. Even if you personally view the supernatural as a null set, those 115 in the conclave did not and do not.

[Papewaio]

I think it is man politics not Holy Spirit.

Otherwise it would always be done in a single vote, there would be no suspicious early deaths of any Pope and there would never had been more then a single concurrent Pope in history (not including retired ones).

Add to it the very real reason they brick them in to speed up the decision... That's about speeding up human not spiritual resolution. Unless you want to suggest the Holy Spirit also works best confined...

[Greyblades]

'would explain why god needs a house on earth.

[HopAlongBunny]

'would explain why god needs a house on earth.

If the church embodies the revelation of Christ in the world through time, then yes. It also makes it a mixture of politics (human struggle) and something revealed (divine guidance).

You could really go all the way and debate the ascendency of politics/revelation as the measure of the church as a successful institution.

[Beskar]

https://i.imgur.com/PO8MANs.jpg

[Greyblades]

If the church embodies the revelation of Christ in the world through time, then yes. It also makes it a mixture of politics (human struggle) and something revealed (divine guidance).

You could really go all the way and debate the ascendency of politics/revelation as the measure of the church as a successful institution.

Er... yeah! Sure, I was talking about that, totally! I wasn't making a joke about this:
Unless you want to suggest the Holy Spirit also works best confined... or anything, no, you interpritation makes me look smarter-I mean was correct! Yeah, that's it.

[HopAlongBunny]

In some circles that is what makes this choice of Pope interesting.

Sin is assumed to exist, in man and in the church. The church as the embodiment and realization of Christ through time, is the example of how we should confront and deal with sin/sinners as Christians. Given the scandals blowing though the Vatican, how this pope chooses to resolve issues of sin within the church will set a standard for Christians throughout the world.

Not a trivial burden that I would wish on anyone.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Quite how "Latin American" this Pope is is open to debate, his parents are Italian so he could equally be seen as "another Italian Pope" by some. This view might be supported by his choice of an Italian Saint for his Papal Name.

In fact - I might go so far as to hazard that this was a deliberate attempt to be more Italian, or to appear so, in order to be more acceptable to the Vatican.

The speed of his election is, indeed, surprising, but in retrospect it seems clear that this decision had been all but made, given the long lead-in to the Conclave and the fact that the previous Pope was doubtless able to make a preference known. Additionally, the lack of a corpse mitigates against the charge of undue haste that the Cardinals would normally receive.

As far as him being an Argentinian - I suppose he could have been an Anglo-Argentinean instead, and then people would scream "English Pope" so overall I'm not actually sure how much this matters. Notably, he apparently does support the Argentinian line on the Falklands, I hope he doesn't get involved in the conflict, because it can never be resolved peacefully.

As he is a Jesuit, I would expect him to be an intelligent man, but I am concerned about reports that he cannot speak French and has only some English.

[HoreTore]

To be fair it's not as clear cut as you are making out. Liberation theology is a big thing there, and the US provides a lot of funding to Evangelical Protestant groups on that continent because Protestants are regarded as being more open to capitalism.

.....And the liberation theology is/was frowned upon by the Catholic Church. Church is the keyword here, I did not say catholics. I am fully aware of the tremendous contributions to socialism made by catholic laymen and clergy - but they were always in opposition to the Church. I'm a big fan of Helder Camara, for example.

[gaelic cowboy]

To be fair it's not as clear cut as you are making out. Liberation theology is a big thing there, and the US provides a lot of funding to Evangelical Protestant groups on that continent because Protestants are regarded as being more open to capitalism.

To be honest I find it dubious that the US is/was funding protestant groups for some kind of "capitalism is cool" plan.

If this existed at all then it's far more likely it was to support the various regime's that the USA backed in the coldwar.

It's far more likely that your putting the cart before the horse here, I imagine the funding is just a bog standard growth strategy by the various US protestant churches.

[HoreTore]

To be honest I find it dubious that the US is/was funding protestant groups for some kind of "capitalism is cool" plan.

If this existed at all then it's far more likely it was to support the various regime's that the USA backed in the coldwar.

It's far more likely that your putting the cart before the horse here, I imagine the funding is just a bog standard growth strategy by the various US protestant churches.

US funding of various protestant missionaries is well documented to be a part of the US government cold war strategy.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

US funding of various protestant missionaries is well documented to be a part of the US government cold war strategy.

Mainstream WASP culture in the USA has been, historically, somewhat leery of Catholicism. At times, outright discrimination was extent, though that was often conflated with discrimination against a large-wave of immigrants from a particular ethnicity.

One well-known US group of bigots, the Ku Klux Klan or KKK, was noted for their opposition and loathing of "Koons, Kikes, and Katholics [sic]."


Combine that attitude with the paranoia of the Cold War, with Catholic Cuba and North Vietnam joining the Soviet Bloc and it becomes easier to see how such efforts may have been supported (note, this is an explanation of, not a defense of).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As to this Holy Father's guidance of Mother Church, it will be interesting to see how he handles the Curia. Many of us in the USA would like to see a few retirements and a good deal of restructuring. So far, of course, he has barely tried out the robes. His first address mentioned the idea of bishops traveling with their congregations, a thematic idea that refers back to Vatican II (one of the biggest reform efforts the Church has ever seen), and he chose to adopt the name of a beloved, but very self-effacing saint rather than choosing Bellarminus as an honor to the Jesuit tradition or Leo or Gregory as a reference to past authoritarian pontiffs.

Interesting times ahead.

[HoreTore]

Mainstream WASP culture in the USA has been, historically, somewhat leery of Catholicism. At times, outright discrimination was extent, though that was often conflated with discrimination against a large-wave of immigrants from a particular ethnicity.

One well-known US group of bigots, the Ku Klux Klan or KKK, was noted for their opposition and loathing of "Koons, Kikes, and Katholics [sic]."


Combine that attitude with the paranoia of the Cold War, with Catholic Cuba and North Vietnam joining the Soviet Bloc and it becomes easier to see how such efforts may have been supported (note, this is an explanation of, not a defense of).

I don't really see why you think US' support of protestant(evangelical) missionaries need defending, nor its ties to US cold war foreign policy...

Is this one of these things I don't get because I live with a state church, or what?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I don't really see why you think US' support of protestant(evangelical) missionaries need defending, nor its ties to US cold war foreign policy...

Is this one of these things I don't get because I live with a state church, or what?

Well, our Constitution and traditions don't really want our government directly involved with Church activities for any faith. I was trying to add context to your earlier post for those less familiar with the interplay of religion with US governance.

[Greyblades]

I don't think the Republicans got the memo.

[HoreTore]

Well, our Constitution and traditions don't really want our government directly involved with Church activities for any faith. I was trying to add context to your earlier post for those less familiar with the interplay of religion with US governance.

Huh. Cultural differences, then. I never thought of such things being controversial...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I don't think the Republicans got the memo.

A bit of a broad brush there. There is a segment (vocal and disproportionately active in politics admittedly) that would love to see such a cultural shift in the USA that we functioned almost theocratically. They are not that big a segment of the 60+ millions who view themselves as GOP or as leaning that way politically.

Most of the GOP folks, however, think that denying our Judeo-Christian origins and effectively adopting a French-style laicite approach would be taking it too far the other direction. Our Constitution prevents Congress from establishing a state religion or enacting laws that impinge upon an individual's choice to worship as they wish. It does not mandate a rejection of all things and influences religious (that was Jefferson's goal and was a minority opinion at the time.).

[Papewaio]

So we have 'two' Jesuit popes now... I wonder if the 'Black' pope will get more or less restrained.

[gaelic cowboy]

US funding of various protestant missionaries is well documented to be a part of the US government cold war strategy.

sorry for the delay in replying but broadband was playing up

Do you not think it was more to do with the fact the USA protestants would be Pro-American whereas the catholics were local and so couldnt be relied upon to back America.

So I would be quite confident it wasnt anything to do with spreading the love of capitalism as I was initialy skeptical of

[HoreTore]

sorry for the delay in replying but broadband was playing up

Do you not think it was more to do with the fact the USA protestants would be Pro-American whereas the catholics were local and so couldnt be relied upon to back America.

How is that in opposition to cold war strategy?

[gaelic cowboy]

How is that in opposition to cold war strategy?


check the post again

I wasnt talking about cold war politics i was talking about the fact I dont buy the USA spread protestantism to create affinity for capitalism