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Xiahou
02-16-2013, 03:28
A friend on Facebook posted an article (http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/how-to-save-the-republican-party/) with the above title from Commentary Magazine. With an eyeroll/groan I clicked on it expecting to see more of the usual rubbish about how the GOP can win if they would just become Democrats-lite. As I skimmed the article, I was kind of surprised to see that the majority of the ideas were quite good:

First, and most important, is focusing on the economic concerns of working-and middle-class Americans, many of whom now regard the Republican Party as beholden to “millionaires and billionaires” and as wholly out of touch with ordinary Americans. This is a durable impression—witness Bill Clinton’s effective deployment of it more than 20 years ago and its continued resonance during the 2012 campaign when Team Obama portrayed Mitt Romney as a plutocrat who delighted in shutting down factories and moving jobs overseas. Sure enough, in November exit polls, 81 percent of voters said that Barack Obama “cared for people like me”; a mere 18 percent said the same of Romney. They also showed that a majority of Americans (53 percent) said Governor Romney’s policies would generally favor the rich, versus only 34 percent who said he would favor the middle class.

In developing a response to these perceptions, Republicans should not downplay their traditional strengths. Given the feeble path of economic growth, reasonable tax rates and a rational tax code are prerequisites for future job creation at sufficient levels. Given the unsustainable path of health-oriented entitlement spending—which threatens to crowd out every other form of federal spending—some party must rise to responsibility. And given the vast potential economic advantage of newly discovered energy sources—both natural gas and shale oil—Republicans should stand for their responsible exploitation.

But gaining a fair hearing on any of these issues requires changing an image that the GOP is engaged in class warfare on behalf of the upper class. Republicans could begin by becoming visible and persistent critics of corporate welfare: the vast network of subsidies and tax breaks extended by Democratic and Republican administrations alike to wealthy and well-connected corporations. Such benefits undermine free markets and undercut the public’s confidence in American capitalism. They also increase federal spending. The conservative case against this high-level form of the dole is obvious, and so is the appropriate agenda: cutting off the patent cronyism that infects federal policy toward energy, health care, and the automobile and financial-services industries, resulting in a pernicious and corrupting system of interdependency. “Ending corporate welfare as we know it”: For a pro-market party, this should be a rich vein to mine.

Four years after the economic and ethical failure of major financial institutions set off a cascade of national suffering, Republicans are still viewed as opponents of institutional reform. Here, Republicans need a touch of Teddy Roosevelt. America’s five largest banks hold assets equal to 60 percent of our economy, a highly dangerous concentration and source of undue political power. These mega-banks—both “too big to fail” and “too complex to manage”—are the unnatural result of government subsidies, not market forces. By supporting the breakup of the big banks, Republicans would encourage competition and create a decentralized system more likely to survive future economic earthquakes.

Together with this, the GOP could commit itself to ensuring a greater degree of social mobility across the board. At the center of any such effort lies a thoroughgoing reform of the federal role in education, focusing on public and private choice, charter schools, testing and accountability, and merit pay for teachers and principals. But a mobility agenda might also include measures to improve job training, encourage college attendance and completion among the poor, discourage teen pregnancy, improve infant and child health, and encourage wealth-building and entrepreneurship.

By tackling such issues in creative, practical, and persistent ways, the GOP would also be making a statement of political philosophy. Rather than being exclusively focused on budget numbers or individual economic rights, Republicans would be demonstrating a limited but active role for government: helping individuals attain the skills and values—the social capital—that allow them to succeed in a free economy. The Republican goal is equal opportunity, not equal results. But equality of opportunity is not a natural state; it is a social achievement, for which government shares some responsibility. The proper reaction to egalitarianism is not indifference. It is the promotion of a fluid society in which aspiration is honored and rewarded.

…………….

Second, a new Republican agenda requires the party to welcome rising immigrant groups. When it comes to immigration, the GOP has succeeded in taking an issue of genuine concern—namely, the lack of border security—and speaking about it in ways offensive to legal immigrants, including vast numbers of Hispanics and Asian Americans (with whom Romney did even worse than Hispanics).

During the 2012 Republican primary season, for example, with candidates vying for the title of who could be toughest on illegal immigration, Herman Cain described his ideal border fence like this: “It’s going to be 20 feet high. It’s going to have barbed wire on the top. It’s going to be electrified. And there’s going to be a sign on the other side saying, ‘It will kill you—Warning.’” In case anyone missed the point, Cain added helpfully that the sign would be written “in English and in Spanish.”

Instead of signaling that America is a closed society, which it is not and never has been, Republicans would do better to stress the assimilating power of American ideals—the power whereby strangers become neighbors and fellow citizens. In this connection, they would also do better, for themselves and for the country, to call for increasing the number of visas issued to seasonal and permanent farm workers; to champion a greater stress on merit and skill in admitting legal immigrants; and, for the 12 million or so undocumented workers in the United States, to provide an attainable if duly arduous path to legal status and eventually citizenship.

Conservative critics of such reforms sometimes express the conviction that Hispanic voters are inherently favorable to bigger government and thus more or less permanently immune to Republican appeals. It is a view that combines an off-putting sense of ideological superiority—apparently “those people” are not persuadable—with a pessimism about the drawing power of conservative ideals. Such attitudes are the prerogative of a sectarian faction. They are not an option for a political party, which cannot afford to lose the ambition to convince.

…………….

Third, Republicans need to express and demonstrate a commitment to the common good, a powerful and deeply conservative concept. There is an impression—exaggerated but not wholly without merit—that the GOP is hyper-individualistic. During the Republican convention, for example, we repeatedly heard about the virtues of individual liberty but almost nothing about the importance of community or social solidarity, and of the obligations and attachments we have to each other. Even Republican figures who espouse relatively moderate policy prescriptions often sound like libertarians run amok.

This picture needs to be filled out, and there is a rich conservative tradition to turn to for inspiration. Included within that tradition is the thought of Edmund Burke, with its emphasis on the “little platoons” of civil society; the Catholic doctrines of subsidiarity and solidarity with the poor; and the ideas developed by evangelical social reformers of an earlier era such as, in England, William Wilberforce and Lord Shaftesbury.

But a turn in this direction cannot be only rhetorical. In pointing to dangers of an expanding central government, Republicans can rightly cite not only the constraints it places on individual initiative but also its crowding-out of civil society and citizen engagement. Specifically, they might propose ways to protect the charitable sector from federal aggression. They might also work to reinforce the activities of civil-society groups by involving them centrally in the next stages of welfare reform, in a robust agenda to overhaul our prison system, and in a concerted effort to encourage civic and cultural assimilation of immigrants.

American society comprises more than private individuals on the one hand, government on the other. Republicans and conservatives can and should take their policy bearings from that crucial fact.

…………….

Fourth, the GOP can engage vital social issues forthrightly but in a manner that is aspirational rather than alienating.

Addressing the issue of marriage and family is not optional; it is essential. Far from being a strictly private matter, the collapse of the marriage culture in America has profound public ramifications, affecting everything from welfare and education to crime, income inequality, social mobility, and the size of the state. Yet few public or political figures are even willing to acknowledge that this collapse is happening.

For various reasons, the issue of gay marriage is now front and center in the public consciousness. Republicans for the most part oppose same-sex marriage out of deference to traditional family structures. In large parts of America, and among the largest portion of a rising generation, this appears to be a losing battle. In the meantime, the fact remains that our marriage culture began to disintegrate long before a single court or a single state approved gay marriage. It is heterosexuals, not homosexuals, who have made a hash out of marriage, and when it comes to strengthening an institution in crisis, Republicans need to have something useful to offer. The advance of gay marriage does not release them from their responsibilities to help fortify that institution and speak out confidently on the full array of family-related issues. Republicans need to make their own inner peace with working with those who both support gay marriage and are committed to strengthening the institution of marriage.

Yes, the ability of government to shape attitudes and practices regarding family life is very limited. But a critical first step is to be clear and consistent about the importance of marriage itself—as the best institution ever devised when it comes to raising children, the single best path to a life out of poverty, and something that needs to be reinforced rather than undermined by society.

Other steps then follow: correcting the mistreatment of parents in our tax code by significantly increasing the child tax credit; eliminating various marriage penalties and harmful incentives for poor and for unwed mothers; evaluating state and local marriage-promotion programs and supporting those that work; informally encouraging Hollywood to help shape positive attitudes toward marriage and parenthood. There may be no single, easy solution, but that is not a reason for silence on the issue of strengthening and protecting the family.

…………….

Fifth, where appropriate, Republicans need to harness their policy views to the findings of science. This has been effectively done on the pro-life issue, with sonograms that reveal the humanity of a developing child. But the cause of scientific literacy was not aided during the recent primary season, when Michele Bachmann warned that “innocent little 12-year-old girls” were being “forced to have a government injection” to prevent the spread of the human papilloma virus, adding that some vaccines may cause “mental retardation.” Bachmann managed to combine ignorance about public health, indifference to cervical cancer, anti-government paranoia, and discredited conspiracy theories about vaccines into one censorious package.

The issue of climate disruption is far more complex, but can play a similar, discrediting role. There is a difference between a healthy skepticism toward fashionable liberal shibboleths and dogmatic resistance to accumulated evidence. Gregg Easterbrook, an environmental commentator who has a long record of opposing alarmism, put it this way: “All of the world’s major science academies have said they are convinced climate change is happening and that human action plays a role.”

To acknowledge climate disruption need hardly lead one to embrace Al Gore’s policy agenda. It is perfectly reasonable to doubt the merits of pushing for a global deal to cut carbon emissions—a deal that is almost surely beyond reach—and to argue instead for a focus on adaptation and investments in new and emerging technologies. Republicans could back an entrepreneurial approach to technical and scientific investment as opposed to the top-down approach of unwieldy government bureaucracies offering huge subsidies to favored companies such as Solyndra. (See above, under “corporate welfare.”)

Confronting climate change is important in and of itself. It is also important as a matter of epistemology, to show that Republicans are not, in fact, at war with the scientific method. Only then will Republicans have adequate standing to criticize junk science when it’s used as a tort weapon or as an obstacle to new energy technologies.

…………….Not bad. :yes:

The Lurker Below
02-16-2013, 04:16
Even though it's not in the Constitution, politicians have respected the "seperation of church and state" since 1789. As soon as the GOP remembers it's for the best, they will be fine.

HopAlongBunny
02-16-2013, 07:36
Everything there makes sense. The problem is that does not seem to hold sway in the Republican party.

They really need to shed the image of being "science denier" loons and cultivate an aura of being reasonable and thoughtful. It might help to also convey some actual "care" for the nation instead of pushing things to the brink of default for no gain.

Fisherking
02-16-2013, 13:31
The article makes sense.

In the last two election cycles the Republicans have indeed come off as cranks and weirdoes.

They have also embraced the stranger elements of the religious right. There is nothing wrong with a belief in god but all the religious rhetoric is a turnoff. No one wants to be governed by Sharia Law nor do they want to be governed by an old testament prophet. Citing biblical passages will lose more votes than it gains.

The harsh image Republicans present is a real problem. People do believe the propaganda that they are the party of the rich and will support corporate interests over those of the people. The article brings that up.

They have a serious image problem. They are going to have to find new blood. Someone not of the elite or inner circle.

Pannonian
02-16-2013, 14:45
Go back to their radical roots. Propose the abolition of slavery throughout the states, by force if necessary.

ajaxfetish
02-16-2013, 17:17
I can get behind all of that. That's the kind of conservatism I like and respect, and which I feel has depressingly been missing from our political scene.

Ajax

Ronin
02-16-2013, 17:35
remedial science classes for starts.

Lemur
02-16-2013, 17:47
Republicans could also seize the forefront of IP law reform. Nobody who looks at the current patent mess can say (with a straight face), "This is fine, and we're on the right track." Sheesh, the head of the Copyright Office just declared (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130210/02562721936/copyright-boss-its-great-mechanics-now-need-to-know-about-copyright.shtml), ""I think it's really great your car mechanic knows about copyright," in reference to the abuse of error codes forcing car shops to buy the right to know what's wrong with your vehicle.

It's a big, ugly mess that affects everyone, and the Dems are unable or unwilling to address it. Wide open. And you could make a data-supported argument that patent reform might spark as much or more innovation than any higgling or jiggling with the tax code.

Fisherking
02-16-2013, 20:26
The problems with laws and congress cut across party lines. They just work on legislation brought to them by whichever special interest groups are making the big donations to their campaign funds.

More than a quarter of them have family members who are lobbyists for one industry or special interest or another.

Note that the article said that the auto industry has a powerful lobby. Also the film and music industries.

As long as the system remains unchanged it is only going to get worse not better.

It is no matter of one party or the other party. They are both corrupt. There will be no laws making things better for the people while special interests provide the money to get them elected.

Don’t get me wrong. Everyone should be able to approach their congressman. It is more a matter of how we chose them and how long they stay.

Term limits need to be imposed and election laws overhauled. You will never get one without the other. The campaign finance laws are very generous. They need to be mean and petty.

We have allowed public servants to become the masters. Representatives style themselves as our leaders. They are the powerful elite and we, the people are here to serve them, not the other way around.

You will see no good laws until the people take back their sovereignty from the political class.

Right wing, left wing, Republican, or Democrat, it makes no difference. Your vote doesn’t count. Only the campaign fund matters and that is filled by special interest groups.

Lemur
02-16-2013, 23:13
Well, for what it's worth, an RSC (http://rsc.scalise.house.gov/) staffer put out a really, really good memo (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/an-anti-ip-turn-for-the-gop/) about IP reform. Which made nerds around the globe cheer.

Of course, the paper was withdrawn within 24 hours (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/01/republican-staffer-fired-for-copyright-memo-talks-to-ars/), and the staffer was fired for it, but still ... it happened.

So there's grounds for cautious optimism. Maybe. Kinda. Sorta.

Anyway, the Dems have shown that they are unwilling to address IP law. So it's a place where the Repubs could (a) do the right thing, (b) differentiate themselves from the status quo (or worse, from the voters' perspectuve: the status quo ante (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush)), and (c) push for a reform that would be welcomed by the vast majority of the business caucus.

The Lurker Below
02-17-2013, 17:00
Reform the GOP? Disband them. The Moderates can join the Democratic Party, the crazies can form their own party of crazy B.S., and the status quo from the '90s will be restored.

I'd agree with this in a sarcastic crank fashion. Please get some moderates on the Democrat ticket, like they had back in the 90's. Remember the blue dog Dems? Whatever happened to discussion and deliberation in that party? Now Obama is the closest thing the Democrats have to a moderate, the rest of them toe the Pelosi-line.

Fisherking, you're singing my song bro, but how to do that? The system fully supports the status quo and the guilty run the system. Revolution? My 3 cars, 3 kids, good jobs, and full belly were all spawned from the generation of apathy. We'll pass, thanks.

Lemur
02-17-2013, 18:23
Obama is the closest thing the Democrats have to a moderate
Well, by any rational pre-Tea-Party standard, Obama is a moderate. Going by policy alone, he's to the right of Dwight Eisenhower, a big-spending Socialist who brought us the freeway system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System), or Richard Nixon, the pinko leftist who signed Title Nine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_IX) and established the EPA (http://www.epa.gov/history/origins.html). (Anybody remember the wage and price freeze (http://nixonswageandpricefreeze.wordpress.com/)?)

Seriously, the political compass is all screwy in our nation. I can only imagine the screams of "Marxism!" that would resound across the conservative media complex if Teddy Roosevelt did his trust-busting thing (http://www.theodorerooseveltcenter.org/Learn-About-TR/Themes/Capitalism-and-Labor/The-Northern-Securities-Case.aspx). An elected official breaking up private companies against their will? Fox and Friends would enter permanent End Times mode.

So as not to completely derail the thread: I believe part of the difficulty for the Republican Party at this moment is illustrated by the fact that they feel it necessary to paint any opponent as Hitler-cum-Stalin. (Not that there's anything inherently wrong with demonizing your opponents, but all things in moderation, yes? And a good dealer doesn't smoke his own product.)

I'm old enough to remember how paranoid and insane things got under President Clinton. My Republican friends would go on about the coming dictatorship and the End of America and the Trail of Hidden Corpses and so on and so forth. They're making similar noises today, with similarly thin justification.

And here's the thing: the paranoia was reflected, amplified, and sometimes initiated by Republicans in positions of responsibility. That's the weird bit.

Every party is going to have cranks, conspiracy theorists, and weirdos. But it seems that Republican leadership are unusually beholden to their cranks, conspiracy theorists, and weirdos. Maybe this has to do with their primary system? A perverse result from gerrymandering safe districts? I.E., by creating reliably rightwing districts, too many Repubs are vulnerable to challenges from the right, rather than anything resembling the center?

Fisherking
02-17-2013, 20:57
Yes, once upon a time in America there were liberals and conservatives in both parties. They even had moderates.

The South was solid Democrat and the upper Midwest was solid Republican.

The Democratic Party made a shape left turn in the late 60s leaving large numbers wondering where they went. The south was largely conservative. In the 68 elections some of those states voted Republican for the first time since reconstruction. The Democrats carried 13 states. 5 states voted for George Wallace and the rest were Republican.

In 72 the Democrats only managed to carry one state, Mass. They got a break with the Watergate scandal though and managed a win with a more moderate Jimmy Carter. The Republicans were stinging from that loss and offered up Reagan who chased most of the liberals from the Republican Party and thus you see it as it has remained for about the last 35 years. Democrats on the left and Republicans on the right. Moderate is only a relative term to describe candidates that may diverge slightly from the mainstream. The only real moderates have dropped all political affiliation.

The media made their shift to the Democratic Party in the early 70s and have held to that until the advent of Fox News in around 2000. At least now you can sift through it carefully and see that the truth is somewhere in-between. Of course both parties hate that.

But you know they are both lying to you while they serve large moneyed interests.

The loons from the parties make noise when the other guy is in office. Both in leadership and rank and file. There are plenty on both sides.

Lemur
02-17-2013, 21:17
Yes, once upon a time in America there were liberals and conservatives in both parties. They even had moderates.
Not my point.


Moderate is only a relative term to describe candidates that may diverge slightly from the mainstream.
If you present me with two ideology-bound hard cases, it's silly to say "moderation lies between them." Nonsense. If anything, fanatics resemble each other more than anyone who seeks moderate, practical solutions.


The loons from the parties make noise when the other guy is in office. Both in leadership and rank and file. There are plenty on both sides.
I would argue that the current Republican party is, as I said, more beholden to its cranks and loons than is normal for a political party. Witness: birtherism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories), Benghazi trutherism (http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/02/14/the-benghazi-truthers-and-the-olc-hold-outs/), and the persistent misuse of the terms Socialist and Marxist (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/obama-socialist). The people playing with these loony conspiracy theories are not restricted to fringe web sites and podcasts; every one of these has been used in public by Republicans in positions of power.

All of this may play well for the base, and for the dittoheads and the NewsMax crowd, but it's antithetical to building a broad coalition in the public.

Papewaio
02-17-2013, 23:26
By Australian standards Democrats are right wing and Republicans are far right. Tea Party are so right they should have a mad hatter or someone with a nifty moustache leading the group.

None of them are moderate by our standards. And I bet if a list of middle Americans drew up a list of what they wanted from their ideal party the voters list would be far more in line with each other and more moderate then the two main parties representing them.

Problem is when two teams are so close in alignment that they are chasing the same demographic poll motivated voting blocks, the bits to differentiate on are hyper inflated, magnified and either vaunted or demonised depending if it is part of the parties platform or part of the other team.

Australian politics seems far more tame in comparison. We have a female agnostic, unmarried Prime Minister Gillard who lives with her defacto husband (who is a hair dresser). The opposition leader Abbot is a die hard Catholic who as the Health Minister blocked reasonable access to abortion (486) drugs. However even Abbot seems more left wing then Obama. We do have several more minor parties and independents make a far larger impact, particularly in the current minority government.

IMDHO I'd vote for Nick Xenophon after this weekend's fallout with Malaysia...

Anyhow back to USA politics. From an outsiders point of view it seems too much religion and character assassination making it far to polarised for the voter while back of house the special interest groups smooth over the differences and make sure the end result is the same... for themselves.

Kralizec
02-17-2013, 23:35
I agreed with the most points in that article. And I'm not a conservative by any stretch of the word's meaning.

How likely is it that the bulk of the republican party would adopt an advice like this?


the usual rubbish about how the GOP can win if they would just become Democrats-lite

To be honest, that's pretty much what the article sounds like to me - something that a moderate, centrist democrat could have written. Or something by a "republican in name only". But then again, I'm a Euroweenie, what do I know?

The Lurker Below
02-17-2013, 23:57
By Australian standards Democrats are right wing and Republicans are far right. Tea Party are so right they should have a mad hatter or someone with a nifty moustache leading the group.

I"d like to see some #'s comparing % of GDP spent for Australia and U.S. Are you talking about social policy only? Otherwise I'm kiinda skeptical about this.

Personally I'd prefer both parties stay the hell out of my personal life, but our monied interests have made certain that's what we care about while they get fat from federal spending. Both Republicans and Democrats are GUILTY of taxing and spending out of control here. The Republicans just make sure to deny it.

The old saying was that the Republicans want in your bedroom and the Democrats want in your pocket. laff - they both enjoy robbing us blind.

Fisherking
02-18-2013, 09:57
I would argue that the current Republican party is, as I said, more beholden to its cranks and loons than is normal for a political party. Witness: birtherism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories), Benghazi trutherism (http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/02/14/the-benghazi-truthers-and-the-olc-hold-outs/), and the persistent misuse of the terms Socialist and Marxist (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/obama-socialist). The people playing with these loony conspiracy theories are not restricted to fringe web sites and podcasts; every one of these has been used in public by Republicans in positions of power.

All of this may play well for the base, and for the dittoheads and the NewsMax crowd, but it's antithetical to building a broad coalition in the public.

While right wing conspiracies are more in the news or being talked about there is no shortage on the other side of the line.

You are just forgetting that Bush blew up the world trade center and the Cheney is the devil. You are also forgetting that Hillary was crying because the right wing conspirators were out to get them.

To me it just seems that when a group is out of office that they see conspiracies against them and to keep them from power.

It may be more publicized because there are more mainstream outlets on the left than the right.

As to the party ideologies, those are not the problem. There are ideas on both sides, good and bad. It is just the elected officials never seem to act in the interest of the people. The Republican staffer who released the memo released something totally in line with Republican’s stated ideology. But his party bosses fired him for that. It would seriously impact political donations.


As to my post, it was not meant to address yours. I had written it earlier and not posted yet. Only the part about the loons was added from what you had said.

HopAlongBunny
02-18-2013, 10:50
Ok, the loons abound and know no particular party. They are everywhere! :evil:

The problem then lies with the media who devote time to them, instead of focusing on policy and examining solutions. The revolution must seize the media outlets and clone them into replicas of PBS and NPR!

:soapbox:

Lemur
02-18-2013, 17:33
The Republican staffer who released the memo released something totally in line with Republican’s stated ideology. But his party bosses fired him for that. It would seriously impact political donations.
Well, looks like I'm not the only one thinking this could be a winner (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/opinion/updating-reaganomics.html?hp&_r=1&) for Republicans:

The Republican economic program of the 1980s also fought against government-imposed restrictions on economic activity: decontrolling energy prices, for example. Today we should target different restrictions. Software patents have become a source of unproductive litigation that entrenches large tech companies and inhibits creativity. Republicans shouldn’t support those patents. Economic growth has to trump corporate executives’ campaign donations.And there's a really telling bit, that I think everyone should heed, earlier in the essay: "In his first Inaugural Address, Reagan famously said that 'government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.' The less famous yet crucial beginning of that sentence was 'in our present crisis.' The question is whether conservatism revives by attending to today’s conditions, or becomes something withered and dead."

Beskar
02-18-2013, 18:04
The thing with good policy is that it transcends 'common' political ideology. Those patent proposals are examples where everyone can sit down and go "That's good proposal", except for those selfish people who are only thinking about the dent in their pockets, unfortunately, they run the government.

Fisherking
02-18-2013, 18:44
You two may be on to something here.

gaelic cowboy
02-19-2013, 02:32
Well, looks like I'm not the only one thinking this could be a winner (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/opinion/updating-reaganomics.html?hp&_r=1&) for Republicans:

The Republican economic program of the 1980s also fought against government-imposed restrictions on economic activity: decontrolling energy prices, for example. Today we should target different restrictions. Software patents have become a source of unproductive litigation that entrenches large tech companies and inhibits creativity. Republicans shouldn’t support those patents. Economic growth has to trump corporate executives’ campaign donations.And there's a really telling bit, that I think everyone should heed, earlier in the essay: "In his first Inaugural Address, Reagan famously said that 'government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.' The less famous yet crucial beginning of that sentence was 'in our present crisis.' The question is whether conservatism revives by attending to today’s conditions, or becomes something withered and dead."



I would say yer not going after patents because they are how advanced economies generate economic activity.

It's easy to talk about patents as a barrier but there removal could actually reduce an economy.

Lemur
02-19-2013, 15:48
It's easy to talk about patents as a barrier but there removal could actually reduce an economy.
Reform ≠ removal.

gaelic cowboy
02-19-2013, 16:13
Reform ≠ removal.

Removal of some barrier tends to be the startpoint/endpoint in all these debates.

Essentially patents are the easiest way to monetise the internet/software, there also the easiest way to protest your ideas/products in a deregulated economy.

If you have no software patents then you have to fall back to rent collection to monetise your products.

drone
02-19-2013, 16:28
Copyright and patents are meant to promote arts and science, not stifle it. Art and invention belong to the public domain, the patent/copyright term is merely a government-granted monopoly to the creator to reward the effort. It is not a license to rent-seek to the end of time.

Software patents need to be the first on the block. Software is already covered by copyright, and you aren't supposed to be able to patent math, which is all that software is.

The Democrats are owned by Hollywood when it comes to IP-related issues, this is as good a place as any for the GOP to lead the charge.

Lemur
02-19-2013, 16:32
The Democrats are owned by Hollywood when it comes to IP-related issues, this is as good a place as any for the GOP to lead the charge.
This. Precisely this.

gaelic cowboy
02-19-2013, 16:47
Copyright and patents are meant to promote arts and science, not stifle it. Art and invention belong to the public domain, the patent/copyright term is merely a government-granted monopoly to the creator to reward the effort. It is not a license to rent-seek to the end of time.

Software patents need to be the first on the block. Software is already covered by copyright, and you aren't supposed to be able to patent math, which is all that software is.

The Democrats are owned by Hollywood when it comes to IP-related issues, this is as good a place as any for the GOP to lead the charge.

Actually patents have never really being good promoters of art and science, they are along with copyright about making sure someone get paid for there efforts.


If no one can protect the software they produce then it will be ripped off, essentially no one will pay for any of it. Now i'm guessing here that this probably wouldn't hurt the development of software, but software employment becomes much reduced.

Software companies would essentially have to compete in service provision after you bought the product, in fact they would probably have to give it away for free in order to extract rent from you instead.

no one will be willing to scrap them so at best patents will be be more easily challenged, and also the narrow definition of copying and theft of software will need to be looked at.

drone
02-19-2013, 17:14
If no one can protect the software they produce then it will be ripped off, essentially no one will pay for any of it. Now i'm guessing here that this probably wouldn't hurt the development of software, but software employment becomes much reduced.

Software companies would essentially have to compete in service provision after you bought the product, in fact they would probably have to give it away for free in order to extract rent from you instead.

no one will be willing to scrap them so at best patents will be be more easily challenged, and also the narrow definition of copying and theft of software will need to be looked at.
Source code is protected by copyright, binaries are generally what gets delivered to the customer.

gaelic cowboy
02-19-2013, 18:10
Source code is protected by copyright, binaries are generally what gets delivered to the customer.

but you wouldn't be able to rely on copyright to protect your source code though Drone cos in this non-patent scenario it's just math and that's in the public domain.

Lemur
02-19-2013, 19:14
gaelic cowboy, do you believe that naturally occurring genomes should have patent protection? Algorithms? Mathematical equations?

Why do you believe copyright is insufficient?

drone
02-19-2013, 20:04
but you wouldn't be able to rely on copyright to protect your source code though Drone cos in this non-patent scenario it's just math and that's in the public domain.

Source code is like a book. You can tell a basic story many ways, but the character names and places are unique. Copyrighted source code means no one can take my files, compile them, and sell the executable. But they can write their own code that does the same thing.

gaelic cowboy
02-20-2013, 02:28
gaelic cowboy, do you believe that naturally occurring genomes should have patent protection? Algorithms? Mathematical equations?



algorithims no but if there used in software that I wrote developed and therefore created a function that was never there to start with then yes.

genomes obviously not but if i figure a way to use genomes for something then yes




Why do you believe copyright is insufficient?

Drone reckons the software is just maths therefore I can claim the maths would lead me to the same place, essentially it would be impossible to prove you hadnt copied it.

After all code is really binary numbers which is public domain

Tellos Athenaios
02-20-2013, 02:43
Software patents were invented to make the likes of IBM a lot of money. Rent-seeking is all they are good for (licensing), hence the niche occupied by the patent troll. Particularly since the lifetime or validity of a patent bear no relationship to actual product or maturity in the market.

That's part one of the problem. Part two is the fact that most of these software inventions have prior art writ large upon them, plain to see for anyone in the trade*. Unfortunately patent offices don't really do this whole "checking the application" thing. So there's an inordinate amount of dross, obvious, or prior art patented, whatever the intentions of the law supposedly were.

Part three is that when it comes to genuine inventions in the art of software, patents don't fit at all. Patents are supposed to protect specific inventions brought to market, not vague descriptions or generic concepts. However, most of the insights in software fall into the "generically reusable concept" category (either as part of computer science or as part of engineering "best-practices"), not in a specific design. Specific designs tend to wind up being algorithms which are not supposed to be patentable in the first place.

Part four is that everyone knows it so it's a matter of war-gaming the system so you can be bigger and badder than your nearest competitors and therefore frighten them off. MAD is not a very healthy paradigm. It's a culture in which people play games like "who can get the whackiest patent past the USPTO?".

And that goes for a lot of patents where "hardware + software" is involved as well. Consider the 2000's era patents on icons on a cell phone, which are distinctly wrong when you recall that your 90's era brick with antenna had those as well, nevermind the questionable novelty of pictograms on a screen at the time. (Pictograms on a screen being something out of the lab from the 50's/60's.)

http://www.ted.com/talks/drew_curtis_how_i_beat_a_patent_troll.html

gaelic cowboy
02-20-2013, 02:55
@ Tellos Athenaios pretty much everything you wrote can be solved without removing patents from any industry.




I can understand the arguements against patents, however seeing as a lot of the economy is tied up in them we better be certain it's a good idea.

Tellos Athenaios
02-20-2013, 03:11
@ Tellos Athenaios pretty much everything you wrote can be solved without removing patents from any industry.

Solved, how? Will the USPTO, or for that matter any patent office, suddenly do their job properly when it comes to software patents? Will patent lifetime be reduced to something suitable when compared to how many iterations of the invention will or could occur in that time? Will patent applications get processed swiftly so they may be granted or rejected before the subject is outdated or common knowledge?

Anyway there's of course a small problem with "pure software patents" in that pure software is merely algorithms and therefore math, as illustrated: http://paulspontifications.blogspot.nl/2011/04/patent-5893120-reduced-to-mathematical.html

gaelic cowboy
02-20-2013, 03:24
Solved, how? Will the USPTO, or for that matter any patent office, suddenly do their job properly when it comes to software patents? Will patent lifetime be reduced to something suitable when compared to how many iterations of the invention will or could occur in that time? Will patent applications get processed swiftly so they may be granted or rejected before the subject is outdated or common knowledge?

Anyway there's of course a small problem with "pure software patents" in that pure software is merely algorithms and therefore math, as illustrated: http://paulspontifications.blogspot.nl/2011/04/patent-5893120-reduced-to-mathematical.html

So we scrap em because they cannot do there job in the patent office.

if certain patents like this can be proved to be illegal than they should indeed be scrapped. I suspect a lawyer will demolish such an arguement easily though, surely they could claim everything is maths and therefore all patents must go as maths is universal.

ICantSpellDawg
02-21-2013, 05:42
IP reform is def somewhere I would like to see the GOP focus. I would like to see them focus on a number of personal liberty issues in a new way.

Busting up monopolies and trusts is not anathema to free-market economics. A system that is capable of disrupting trade is a corruption, like a blood clot. Added to this, the system would be outside of the power of citizens. I'm all for laws that lower taxes, reduce loopholes and eliminate any government incentives for monopolization of industry.

HopAlongBunny
02-21-2013, 09:05
The problem with that is the "market" is itself an incentive to seek, obtain and defend monopoly power. Without government regulation and intervention, the "market" actually strives to stifle competition.

ICantSpellDawg
02-21-2013, 18:57
The problem with that is the "market" is itself an incentive to seek, obtain and defend monopoly power. Without government regulation and intervention, the "market" actually strives to stifle competition.

I agree, as I had stated before. People are also driven to rob and kill and enslave others. They need regulation to keep them from doing this to one another. Government has a role and that is to maximally protect the rights of individuals from dissolution by others (including government). I believe that the governments role beyond this should be localized to the greatest extent possible.

Strike For The South
02-21-2013, 20:08
I agree, as I had stated before. People are also driven to rob and kill and enslave others. They need regulation to keep them from doing this to one another.Not true, most people are content to leave well enough alone.


Government has a role and that is to maximally protect the rights of individuals from dissolution by others (including government). I believe that the governments role beyond this should be localized to the greatest extent possible.

This statement is intentionally vague and means nothing. I have individual right to healthcare. I have an individual right to have my butthole played with during sex. The rub is hammering out where we draw the line, can we at least agree on that?

Localized control becomes more and more useless as the world gets smaller and smaller.

Also, I need odds for my "Vicar of Rome" betting pool, do you have any?

ICantSpellDawg
02-22-2013, 04:30
Not true, most people are content to leave well enough alone.


Until they are not. My point is that everyone, at some point, feels the desire to deprive others of life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness. It is as natural as wanting to leave others alone and be left alone the rest of the time.

HopAlongBunny
02-22-2013, 11:42
Until they are not. My point is that everyone, at some point, feels the desire to deprive others of life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness.

You can add to that list: Where money is involved. Unfortunately, that extends the need for gov't oversight to almost all social interactions, and almost by definition market interactions. Which raises the question of "who will watch the watchers".