This country sucks, and could learn from Norway

[Kralizec]

Most of you probably don’t know this, but the Netherlands is (or used to be) very rich in natural gas. Most of it lies under the province of Groningen, the north-eastern part of the country, and coincidentally this is where I live.

Especially after the oil crisis of the 70’ ies natural gas has been a huge source of income. In fact, during price peaks it almost made up 10% of government income. Instead of putting the money to good use, like eliminating the sovereign debt, infrastructure or a long-term fund like Norway these revenues have generally not been earmarked in any way. About 15% was spent on infrastructural projects; the rest on general government spending like social security, bond interests and law enforcement. Nice stuff, but the long term benefit has been negligible. I’ve read somewhere that our poor example was actually one of the reasons why Norway chose to stash their oil revenues in the matress for later generations.

For a while there was an earmarked fund for the gas revenues, originally intended for infrastructure. But the stated purpose of the fund was later expanded to include “advancing the knowledge-economy” – i.e. a meaningless, vacuous term that can be used to justify almost any expenditure. The fund has since then been abolished and the revenues simply enter the general treasury again.

Other than the dumb way in which the money is spent, there’s also the issue about where it is spent. Over the decades the bulk of the money was spent in the urbanized western regions. These are obviously the most populous, but even accounting for that the amount is disproportionate. The three northern provinces make up about 10% of the national population, but only about 1% of the gas revenues end up being spent here.

Despite these gas deposits, the north is pretty much the most impoverished part of the Netherlands. Some politicians have criticized the EU financial aid packages to countries like Greece because there’s not enough kinship between different countries for such solidarity, like there is between different regions in the same country. They usually name the province as Groningen as an example, being the beneficiary of wealth transfers from the richer, urbanized west. I think this is funny.

As it turns out, large scale exploitation of gas fields can cause earthquakes. They’ve been happening sporadically for several decades but are becoming a regular occurrence nowadays. Granted, these earthquakes are pretty light (heaviest so far was 3,6 on the Richter scale) but houses and other buildings here haven’t been constructed with these quakes in mind. Since the gas revenues vastly exceed any economic damage these quakes may cause it’s perfectly rational to keep drilling and simply compensate the owners. But since the gas revenues barely benefit the local population anyway, most wonder why they should put up with it at all.

On the bright side: I don’t own a house, I’m free to move elsewhere and I intend to do just that at some point in the future. Living here sucks, anyway.

[HopAlongBunny]

Sounds much like Alberta, Canada.

We have oil & gas; been at it for a long time. The royalties saved amount to some 14billion (I believe we've been at this game longer than Norway); the attitude seems to be to spend it as fast as we can. If the politicians here were "trustees" they would be in jail :P

[Fragony]

I can understand why the people in the north are a bit angry

[Greyblades]

Hmm... from this and several other examples of despair at the actions of a country's ruling body, I conclude that the EU is not especially malevolent, cruel or incompetent, merely that it is as good and bad as any other governing body just that the lack of a singular national identity means that every fault it has is amplified due to it being perceived as foreign in every nation it influences, regardless of actual national origins. In the attempt to be representative of all european nations it is seen as representing none.

[Fragony]

Hmm... from this and several other examples of despair at the actions of a country's ruling body, I conclude that the EU is not especially malevolent, cruel or incompetent, merely that it is as good and bad as any other governing body just that the lack of a singular national identity means that every fault it has is amplified because it is perceived as foreign in every nation it influences regardless of actual national origins. In the attempt to be representative of all european nations it is seen as representing none.

Nothing to do with the EU this time (am I really saying this), this isn't a reason to despair this is just an inconvenience. Shale gasses for the win, plenty of it.

Edit, any experts in da house, deutorium, the sea is full of it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium

Question

Through much of the few minutes after the big bang during which nucleosynthesis could have occurred, the temperature was high enough that the mean energy per particle was greater than the binding energy of weakly bound deuterium; therefore any deuterium that was formed was immediately destroyed. This situation is known as the deuterium bottleneck. The bottleneck delayed formation of any helium-4 until the universe became cool enough to form deuterium (at about a temperature equivalent to 0.1 MeV or 100 keV). At this point, there was a sudden burst of element formation (first deuterium, which immediately fused to helium). However, very shortly thereafter, at twenty minutes after the Big Bang, the universe became too cool for any further nuclear fusion and nucleosynthesis to occur. At this point, the elemental abundances were nearly fixed, with the only change as some of the radioactive products of BBN (such as tritium) decay.[5] The deuterium bottleneck in the formation of helium, together with the lack of stable ways for helium to combine with hydrogen or with itself (there are no stable nuclei with mass numbers of five or eight) meant that insignificant carbon, or any elements heavier than carbon, formed in the Big Bang. These elements thus required formation in stars. At the same time, the failure of much nucleogenesis during the Big Bang ensured that there would be plenty of hydrogen in the later universe available to form long-lived stars, such as our Sun.

How can temperature have any impact on the mergings of atoms it's just -1or +1 or the mass that are neutral atoms

[Beskar]

Nothing to do with the EU this time (am I really saying this), this isn't a reason to despair this is just an inconvenience. Shale gasses for the win, plenty of it.

Greyblades was trying to make a different point which was more off-topic, which is why it might have came across as a little confusing as him seeming to bring the EU on this matter.

[Greyblades]

Every time I see frags I think of the EU, seeing as its all he ever talks about, there's not much to say about the original topic beyond "that sucks" besides.

[Fragony]

Every time I see frags I think of the EU, seeing as its all he ever talks about, there's not much to say about the original topic beyond "that sucks" besides.

That's simply not true, i also talk about islam. I am so much more, ask my mom

[Hax]

then again, teh muslims and teh eu are in a conspiracy, so it's all the same thing! protocols of the elders of mecca! eurabia!

By the way, did you know that certain Salafi groups justify their movement by saying that God evidently blessed the Kingdom of Saudi-Arabia, otherwise there wouldn't have been so much oil there?

[Fragony]

then again, teh muslims and teh eu are in a conspiracy, so it's all the same thing! protocols of the elders of mecca! eurabia!

By the way, did you know that certain Salafi groups justify their movement by saying that God evidently blessed the Kingdom of Saudi-Arabia, otherwise there wouldn't have been so much oil there?

As long as there is no sense of humor or other ways of introspection I don't really care

[Hax]

That's the problem.

You don't really care about anything that you think doesn't immediately affect you.

[Ironside]

Edit, any experts in da house, deutorium, the sea is full of it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium

Question

How can temperature have any impact on the mergings of atoms it's just -1or +1 or the mass that are neutral atoms

Temperature is energy. Or to be more exact, it's how fast the average molecule/atom is moving in the area. For merging (or ripping apart) you'll need to pass a certain energy treshhold (unique for every type of reaction) and get a perfect collision. Now since you'll get a lot of collisions every second it doesn't take that long when a proper temperature is reached.

The average means that some are faster and it's possible that those are the only ones that react. That's a relativly slow reaction.

[Fragony]

That's the problem.

You don't really care about anything that you think doesn't immediately affect you.

I might surprise you there

[HoreTore]

Your could learn from us?

"The Dutch" is a term we use whenever we want to convey images of horror and impending economic ruin. I'd say it's more common to talk about you than Spain or Argentina... You are the beacon of economic mismanagement, the living image of everything that should not be done.

Be proud of it.

[Fragony]

Still better than what we are ussualy known for ;)

[Kival]

Your could learn from us?

"The Dutch" is a term we use whenever we want to convey images of horror and impending economic ruin. I'd say it's more common to talk about you than Spain or Argentina... You are the beacon of economic mismanagement, the living image of everything that should not be done.

Be proud of it.

For me actually netherlands is the land of part-time-work. Inhowfar is the netherlands so terribly mismanaged? I haven't heard about economic doom from the dutch.

[drone]

Still better than what we are ussualy known for ;)

Wasted potential at the World Cup? :inquisitive:

[Beskar]

Being tall, so it makes me feel like I am a normal height, opposed to the more typical "shorter" Brits.

[Sarmatian]

For me actually netherlands is the land of part-time-work. Inhowfar is the netherlands so terribly mismanaged? I haven't heard about economic doom from the dutch.

There's no economic doom, Krazilec was cranky cause someone woke him up early from his afternoon nap.

Just so you know, you guys in general sound really funny to me when you complain "how bad is it" in your countries. "Oh, my God, it's soooo bad here. I eat moldy cheese, drink old wine and drive a car without a roof. Also, my wallet is too small and my fine Italian leather shoes are too tight. Awful... "

Wanna swap, Kraz? I'll trade you richest province in Serbia for poorest province in Netherlands any day of the week...

[Kralizec]

Meh, I just like to complain. You should give it a try, it feels pretty good.

Edit: I'll give you €100 for your richest region.

[Sarmatian]

Meh, I just like to complain. You should give it a try, it feels pretty good.

Edit: I'll give you €100 for your richest region.

Pffff, are you kidding me?

you'll get the entire country for that

[HoreTore]

For me actually netherlands is the land of part-time-work. Inhowfar is the netherlands so terribly mismanaged? I haven't heard about economic doom from the dutch.

They were in the situation we are in now a few years ago, and squandered it all. We try our best not to make their mistakes, and Krazilec is correct that our oil-fund was inspired by their mistakes.

We call it "the dutch disease" here.

[Kralizec]

Pffff, are you kidding me?

you'll get the entire country for that

It's a deal!

Hah, you could have robbed me by demanding twice that much, maybe even more. This just proves that eastern Europeans are too honest for their own good.

[Fragony]

They were in the situation we are in now a few years ago, and squandered it all. We try our best not to make their mistakes, and Krazilec is correct that our oil-fund was inspired by their mistakes.

We call it "the dutch disease" here.

Heh, I don't know if this is true, but I heard we are actually being back some of our gas at a higher price. It wouldn't surprise me.

[HoreTore]

Heh, I don't know if this is true, but I heard we are actually being back some of our gas at a higher price. It wouldn't surprise me.

We all do, as we don't have refineries. We sell unrefined oil and gas, and buy back refined oil and gas. The latter is of course more expensive than the former.

[Husar]

We all do, as we don't have refineries. We sell unrefined oil and gas, and buy back refined oil and gas. The latter is of course more expensive than the former.

Maybe not enough, but no refineries seems wrong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_refineries#Netherlands).

[HoreTore]

Maybe not enough, but no refineries seems wrong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_refineries#Netherlands).

Gah, I knew you'd be a nazi over this ~;)

The "maybe not enough"-part is the same as "no refineries" to my point, which was about the refining process. Also, it's a matter of international trade. For an example of another industry, we dump Jarlsberg cheese all over Britain, yet we still import lots of cheese from Italy, France and even Britain. More expensive cheese too. The same mechanics apply to oil and gas. Frag's post implied an arrangement where the dutchies sold off gas and then imported the exact same kind of gas back. That's not how it works.




AND MONGSTAD CAN BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY

[Myth]

At last you're making use of your own natural resources. The traitorous scum in the Bulgarian Parliament gave Dundee Precious Metals a 30 year concession of one of our gold mines (the only working one) for peanuts. So far they've excavated and exported 100 tons of gold from our mine. Apart from the few priveliged who got bribed to accept this atrocious deal, the Bulgarian people get zilch, squat, nada from the most precious resource a country could own IMO.

You also must think of something else - there are those who don't want your country to pay off its debt. You must stay indebted and you must be reliant on things like the European Bank, the IMF and so on. Nobody wants a free, independant country that generates its own wealth. Would that we all end up like Spain and Greece, they'd be a happy bunch of bankers.

Why don't you organize protests. They seem to be working here in Bulgaria (don't know if you've seen the news, I was at the protests last night even though I make good money presently)

[HoreTore]

Got any Protocols of the Elders to explain how those bankers work?

Anyhoo, a country relying on natural resources is bound to stay poor. Countries without them are bound to be wealthy. It's not a coincidence that Europe's first truly wealthy states came in areas without natural resources or agriculture(Holland and the Italian city-states). Ditto for the East. Asia's wealthiest country, Japan, is also the country with the fewest resources.

[Kralizec]

The "maybe not enough"-part is the same as "no refineries" to my point, which was about the refining process. Also, it's a matter of international trade. For an example of another industry, we dump Jarlsberg cheese all over Britain, yet we still import lots of cheese from Italy, France and even Britain. More expensive cheese too. The same mechanics apply to oil and gas. Frag's post implied an arrangement where the dutchies sold off gas and then imported the exact same kind of gas back. That's not how it works.

Gas doesnt need that much treatment before consumption, and I think we do it ourselves. There are various industrial applications for natural gas (i.e. used for fertilizer, conversion into methanol, etc) and we might import some of that stuff, but that's not quite the same thing.

Our pipelines also serve as a distribution node for foreign gas towards other European countries, maybe that's what Frags meant.

[Fragony]

Not sure what I mean myself. But I remember reading that we have are buying back our own gas. I have absolutely no idea if that's actually true

[Sarmatian]

Got any Protocols of the Elders to explain how those bankers work?

Anyhoo, a country relying on natural resources is bound to stay poor. Countries without them are bound to be wealthy. It's not a coincidence that Europe's first truly wealthy states came in areas without natural resources or agriculture(Holland and the Italian city-states). Ditto for the East. Asia's wealthiest country, Japan, is also the country with the fewest resources.

And Germany and USA, also... Wait, something doesn't add up here...

[HoreTore]

And Germany and USA, also... Wait, something doesn't add up here...

Germany and the US are also examples of countries relying on industry instead of agriculture and natural resource exporting. They are also both examples of states who went to great lengths to protect themselves while building up their industry.

Spain, on the other hand, is an example of a country with a huge surplus of a valuable resource(gold), which then de-industrialized the country and made them poor for centuries after.

In a century or so you can probably add Norway to that list. Be kind and give my grandchildren a nickel when you pass them on the streets, will you?

[HoreTore]

Gas doesnt need that much treatment before consumption, and I think we do it ourselves.

Well, diesel just needs to run through a tube(basically), but it still needs to be done, somehow and somewhere. As it can't be done on the platform, that means bringing the oil somewhere else before bringing it back to where the consumer is. In this day and age, there's no real logical reason to confine that to just one country, that can be done anywhere.

[Myth]

HoreTore for one who has strong opinions on everything you seem to lack fundamental knowledge on the topics you pick to comment on. I'll not even try and explain to you how and why rich countries are rich and poor countries are poor, what happens with natural resources and what national debt is and why its so widely spread. You need to read more than Adolf Hitler's biography to even remotely back up your smugness. I'm done with this thread unless the OP responds on why don't they protest en masse until something changes.

[HoreTore]

I'll be looking forward to reading the Protocols of the Elders of the Bulgar Bankiers. Should be a blast!

Remember guys, it's always that other fellow's fault.

[Sarmatian]

Germany and the US are also examples of countries relying on industry instead of agriculture and natural resource exporting. They are also both examples of states who went to great lengths to protect themselves while building up their industry.

Spain, on the other hand, is an example of a country with a huge surplus of a valuable resource(gold), which then de-industrialized the country and made them poor for centuries after.

It invalidates your point than only countries with no natural resources are rich. Bing, you lost - You owe me a drekar (with crew), three hot French slave girls and a complement of axes.


In a century or so you can probably add Norway to that list. Be kind and give my grandchildren a nickel when you pass them on the streets, will you?

If Norway regress to poverty in a century or so, Serbia will probably regress to tribal community, so I won't be able to give your grandchildren a nickel, but I'll be happy to give them some ointment and boar's testicles to chew on to make them more manly.


I'm done with this thread unless the OP responds on why don't they protest en masse until something changes.

Because it's hard to get people with one of the highest average salaries in the world to go out and protest poverty, isn't it?

[gaelic cowboy]

Germany and the US are also examples of countries relying on industry instead of agriculture and natural resource exporting. They are also both examples of states who went to great lengths to protect themselves while building up their industry.

Spain, on the other hand, is an example of a country with a huge surplus of a valuable resource(gold), which then de-industrialized the country and made them poor for centuries after.

In a century or so you can probably add Norway to that list. Be kind and give my grandchildren a nickel when you pass them on the streets, will you?

this is pure fail of the internet meme kind

[HoreTore]

It invalidates your point than only countries with no natural resources are rich. Bing, you lost - You own me a drekar (with crew), three hot French slave girls and a complement of axes.

Every country except Desolaterockistan has some kind of resource, so that obviously wasn't the point. Rather, the point was that industrialization is the key to wealth, as opposed to resource dependency.

Sorry, no boat for you. And you'll have to be satisfied with british girls instead.

[gaelic cowboy]

Every country except Desolaterockistan has some kind of resource, so that obviously wasn't the point. Rather, the point was that industrialization is the key to wealth, as opposed to resource dependency.

Sorry, no boat for you. And you'll have to be satisfied with british girls instead.

industrialisation required certain factors historically such as

sound banking systems

secure property rights (or at least more secure than up to that point)

transport links (which meant at the very start large rivers and canals)

nearby resources (coal, iron, clay, labour and investible capital)


Much of southern europe had none or only a few of these things and so they did not get a good start on industrialisation.

[HoreTore]

"Industrialization" refers to manufacturing, not the industrial revolution itself. Ie. 14th century, not 18th.

[gaelic cowboy]

"Industrialization" refers to manufacturing, not the industrial revolution itself. Ie. 14th century, not 18th.

Ah here now yer having a laugh going back to the 1300s man

in the 1300s the key to wealth for an Anglo Norman was having his paws on a big fat duchy like say Aquitaine which apparently was wealthier than all Anglo Norman controlled land in both the UK and Ireland added together.

[HoreTore]

Ah here now yer having a laugh going back to the 1300s man

in the 1300s the key to wealth for an Anglo Norman was having his paws on a big fat duchy like say Aquitaine which apparently was wealthier than all Anglo Norman controlled land in both the UK and Ireland added together.

...and that probably explains why I have mentioned Holland and the Italian city-states, and not Britain?

[Sarmatian]

...and that probably explains why I have mentioned Holland and the Italian city-states, and not Britain?

And you do know that Italy and the Lowlands were the richest part of Europe at that time, partly due to their huge agricultural production, which allowed cheap(er) food. Those rich Italian city states didn't form around Naples or Sicily but in the north, near the fertile Po valley.

[gaelic cowboy]

...and that probably explains why I have mentioned Holland and the Italian city-states, and not Britain?

A geographic sweetspot had a big influence during that period for the two mentioned

[HoreTore]

And you do know that Italy and the Lowlands were the richest part of Europe at that time, partly due to their huge agricultural production, which allowed cheap(er) food. Those rich Italian city states didn't form around Naples or Sicily but in the north, near the fertile Po valley.


A geographic sweetspot had a big influence during that period for the two mentioned

Industrialization began in the netherlands when the agricultural potential was exploited. It began in Italy when the power of the countryside(feudal lords) had been broken and the power moved to the city.

Agriculture is of course a prerequisite for cities. True wealth, however, can only come about as a result of industrialization in the city. This occurs when investments in new land is no longer viable, which is what happened in Holland and Italy.

And both places did have a geographic sweet spot. When did I say otherwise? They both occupied ideal places for industrialization - instead of resource exploitation.

[Kralizec]

Why don't you organize protests. They seem to be working here in Bulgaria (don't know if you've seen the news, I was at the protests last night even though I make good money presently)

I hadn't noticed anything in the news about Bulgaria, but today I read that you're out of a government...

As for why nobody here is protesting, good question.

The gas here has provided the rest of the country with over 170 billion euro's since it was discovered, but the north is sparsely populated (i.e. few voters), so politicians can get away with ignoring it. A couple of years ago the central government decided to cancel a high-speed rail project that would have connected the northern provinces to the bigger cities in the west. The allocated funds would instead to be used for other infrastructural projects in the north as compensation. Except that shortly thereafter it was decided to divert 2/3 of the money to the western cities, under the reasoning that this way it would benefit a larger amount of people. This is pretty typical of how the central government has always treated the peripherial parts of the Netherlands.

Now we're having more and more earthquakes; and a study has projected that the frequency and intensity will increase (possibly exceeding 5 on the richter scale) if gas exploitation continues. The relevant minister has, however, requested 11 more scientific studies of which the results are due only at the end of this year, and said he won't consider scaling back gas exploitation until that time.

The people here are probably less chauvenistic and regionalistic than some other parts of the country, so they don't tend to complain much about it. It doesn't bother me that much myself, actually. I'm pretty sure though that in a country with stronger regional identities, like Spain, the central government wouldn't dream of giving any region a similar treatment.

[Kralizec]

Because it's hard to get people with one of the highest average salaries in the world to go out and protest poverty, isn't it?

Compared to other countries it's not bad, obviously. But two points:

A) people will complain about minor grievances, no matter how good they have it. Look at France's protests when Sarkozy raised the retirement age from 60 to 62, something that Hollande has largely reverted.

B) This province, and more generally the entire northern part of country, is unfairly treated compared to the larger population centres. I'm not even saying we should keep 50% of the gas revenues or something like that. Right now this province is not even getting a per capita share, set against the whole country.

[Sarmatian]

Industrialization began in the netherlands when the agricultural potential was exploited. It began in Italy when the power of the countryside(feudal lords) had been broken and the power moved to the city.

Agriculture is of course a prerequisite for cities. True wealth, however, can only come about as a result of industrialization in the city. This occurs when investments in new land is no longer viable, which is what happened in Holland and Italy.

And both places did have a geographic sweet spot. When did I say otherwise? They both occupied ideal places for industrialization - instead of resource exploitation.

Of course that wealth comes from industrialization - the point is that prerequisite of industrialization is cheap and plentiful food. If you have 80% of your population working in agriculture, you can't really industrialize, but when it comes to a point when only 50% works in agriculture, the rest are free to do something else, so nations that had more fertile land and more advanced technology had a better starting position.

Add to that a geographic sweetspot as gaelic cowboy nicely put it and you have much more effective industrialization than other, not so blessed countries. If you add abundant natural resources to mix, you get a very powerful combo.

Not to mention other issues like transportation, wars, education, political concerns etc...

[Fragony]

Industrialization began in the netherlands when the agricultural potential was exploited. It began in Italy when the power of the countryside(feudal lords) had been broken and the power moved to the city.

Agriculture is of course a prerequisite for cities. True wealth, however, can only come about as a result of industrialization in the city. This occurs when investments in new land is no longer viable, which is what happened in Holland and Italy.

And both places did have a geographic sweet spot. When did I say otherwise? They both occupied ideal places for industrialization - instead of resource exploitation.

In case of the Netherlands it was more colonisation and trade that brought wealth, our golden age was way before industrialisation, we were pretty badly lagging behind other countries like the UK with that. The Netherlands is also blessed with natural infrastructure, these rivers have always come in handy, it's really easy to move stuff around for us. Small miracle we were never eaten by our neighbours because of that positioning.

//suckup mode, love it when you are being smug :sweetheart:

[Strike For The South]

The United States has some of the most natural resources in the world.

[Tellos Athenaios]

They were in the situation we are in now a few years ago, and squandered it all. We try our best not to make their mistakes, and Krazilec is correct that our oil-fund was inspired by their mistakes.

We call it "the dutch disease" here.

If by "a few years ago" you mean the 1960's/70's? As opposed to the 90's/00's which more or less created the current situation?


Got any Protocols of the Elders to explain how those bankers work?

Anyhoo, a country relying on natural resources is bound to stay poor. Countries without them are bound to be wealthy. It's not a coincidence that Europe's first truly wealthy states came in areas without natural resources or agriculture(Holland and the Italian city-states). Ditto for the East. Asia's wealthiest country, Japan, is also the country with the fewest resources.

Two extremely poor choices. The Italian city states were funded by wealth from agriculture surplus and being conveniently located on a nexus of trade routes, and the Dutch were funded by much the same (dairy + trade routes).


Gas doesnt need that much treatment before consumption, and I think we do it ourselves. There are various industrial applications for natural gas (i.e. used for fertilizer, conversion into methanol, etc) and we might import some of that stuff, but that's not quite the same thing.

Our pipelines also serve as a distribution node for foreign gas towards other European countries, maybe that's what Frags meant.

Either that or a capacity thing. Could be the gas supply is maintained at a nearly continuous capacity which is somewhat lower than our peak demand -- so during peaks we buy Russian through Germany. The alternative is what Britain does which is to make it a survival of the fittest granny thing. Though that might also have something to do with a penchant for choosing poor housing and a stubborn reluctance to invest in their own comfort.:thinking:

[Tellos Athenaios]

In case of the Netherlands it was more colonisation and trade that brought wealth, our golden age was way before industrialisation, we were pretty badly lagging behind other countries like the UK with that.

Colonisation never brought in the big bucks, by and large it did not manage to break even. What worked out really well, though, was the trade with the Baltic.


The Netherlands is also blessed with natural infrastructure, these rivers have always come in handy, it's really easy to move stuff around for us. Small miracle we were never eaten by our neighbours because of that positioning.

//suckup mode, love it when you are being smug :sweetheart:

Not a small miracle. Here's how it works:

Hire the entirety of Switzerland. People are afraid of the Swiss, or they will be after the Swiss stick 'em on a pike. If that fails, cosy up to France, England or Prussia; switch alliances as necessary to keep them on tenterhooks. In a pinch you are allowed to bribe the Spanish.

[Papewaio]

To get industrialization you need a surplus of labour and a food surplus too.

So one part is relatively high yield farms without requiring everyone in agriculture. Wheat has a lower caloric yield per acre then potatoes.

Another part is healthier cities. Things like sewers for instance. Cities are concentrated humanity, as such they increase the rates of both positive and negative aspects. City people walk and talk faster, have more patents per capita, more crime and more disease. Cities used to rely on immigration from the countryside to keep the population pools up. Simple infrastructure such as clean water and sewers is one of the reasons some cities out preformed their neighbors.

[Beskar]

I keep seeing a bunch of Norway pictures on 9gag recently, like this one.
http://9gag.com/gag/6632772

They unfortunately make me think "Why do we suffer such bad hotel rooms?"

[Fragony]

Colonisation never brought in the big bucks

Debatable that, but foreign trade absolutely did in any case