Defense Distributed Is The Greatest

[ICantSpellDawg]

I think they've mastered the AR lower receiver.
Video of testers firing 600 rounds through a printed polymer lower receiver.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAW72Y_XPF4

Video of testers firing printed 30 round magazines on selected-fire to show the resilience.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGTriDDUpUk&list=UUsKjElNP5r8fXVYdGxuGo6Q& index=2



...On a printer that will likely be in each of our homes within the next 5-10 years.

Feel free to donate money to urge them on in their noble effort (http://defensedistributed.com/) and buy your own AR today if you can find one and still live in a free state. Build on, Wayne

Here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZuMkkyRURU) is Dvorak's Tempo Di Valse, in case you were wondering

[Crazed Rabbit]

This is the beginning of the end of gun control.

CR

[Fragony]

I took this for an april's fools joke, how is this actually possible?

[Greyblades]

Ok, you can make guns, can you make viable bullets, percussion caps and propellant from these? Otherwise it's just models.

[Idaho]

I don't understand. Is it saying you can print the whole gun, or just a few parts of it? How do you make the barrel?

Doubt it would make much difference in the UK, as it's very hard to get bullets, and I doubt you can print those.

[Husar]

You can just buy a standard issue copper pipe for plumbing and use it as the barrel, maybe put some vaseline inside to reduce the stress on the somewhat weaker copper material. Or buy a standard issue household hardened steel printer, which will soon be available. If the plastic printers can also print carbon materials or nanotube barrels then the government can finally be overthrown as well.

The future is bright, mostly from the gunfire and explosions.

[Fragony]

I don't understand. Is it saying you can print the whole gun, or just a few parts of it? How do you make the barrel?

Doubt it would make much difference in the UK, as it's very hard to get bullets, and I doubt you can print those.

It's very easy really, you can just order them from Belgium

[Idaho]

Ok. So I have printed my stock, magazine and trigger. I've ordered my barrel from Belgium and smuggled in my bullets from Russia. Will I finally be safe from the king of England?

[gaelic cowboy]

bah big deal some company decides to print a piece of 19th century tech.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYs-Av_HbWs

The real innovators are talking about printing everything from toys, musical instruments, clothes and jet engines.
This is going to be big and just like in the music industry has the potential to turn manufacturing upside down.

The exporting of manufactured goods will essentially evaporate overnight once it becomes widely available.

[Greyblades]

Wow. Imagine the computer parts you could make with this stuff.

[gaelic cowboy]

Wow. Imagine the computer parts you could make with this stuff.

The parts might be big at first but you could print hundreds of chips and essentially create a super computer.

You could print a house or a car if you like, maybe you fancy building a corporate jet or a spaceshuttle. The only limit is the size of the printer and the material for the printer itself.

But even that can be overcome with some clever CAD design (or download someone elses)

Major corporations we think are monolithic will go bust as they wont be able to monetise the new system.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67cev_zcXJw

[ICantSpellDawg]

3d printing is that big thing that we've been wondering about. It will destroy the economy of China... and probably the rest of the world. But the possibilities are endless, guns, household parts, car parts, computer parts, etc.

As far as bullets go, getting smokeless powder will be tricky. You can print the casing in polymer and will be able to print the projectile, but the only powder that you will be able to get no matter what is black powder, which will render an AR15 completely ineffective due to the soot - the primer will be easy enough, but you won't have an effective modern weapon. This is the next problem, but I'd imagine that printable rail guns or some other magnetic accelerator arent too far behind.

[HopAlongBunny]

Pretty wild stuff :)

I remember listening to a lady who was touting the ability to have your feet scanned, and print custom-fit shoes on the spot. The savings in labour, transportation and inventory management would be huge.

Too bad for the schlobs out-of-work...

[Sir Moody]

3d printing is that big thing that we've been wondering about. It will destroy the economy of China... and probably the rest of the world. But the possibilities are endless, guns, household parts, car parts, computer parts, etc.

As far as bullets go, getting smokeless powder will be tricky. You can print the casing in polymer and will be able to print the projectile, but the only powder that you will be able to get no matter what is black powder, which will render an AR15 completely ineffective due to the soot - the primer will be easy enough, but you won't have an effective modern weapon. This is the next problem, but I'd imagine that printable rail guns or some other magnetic accelerator aren't too far behind.


While Gauss guns would be the holy grail of this sort of technology they just are not feasible for hand held weapons without radical changes in our ability to generate power - to get the same velocity as a standard firearm you need a massive amount of energy to generate a large enough magnetic field - right now the best we can a manage for a hand held gun would be similar in velocity to a air gun - and would have a fire rate similar to a crossbow

personally I find that comforting because they are really easy to make...

The technology is far better suited to static or mounted emplacements where larger generators (and longer barrels) can be employed

I believe DARPA has a coilgun department so maybe they will crack it someday

[Hooahguy]

Feinstein is gonna have a heart attack when she sees this.

[Greyblades]

Too bad for the schlobs out-of-work... Hey maybe we'll finally go all star trek; abandon all concept of employment, only doing required professions out of general boredom instead of financial incentive and become directionless hippies like Gene Roddenberry dreamed :P
I don't think too many would be out of work, at least in the service based western economies, most of the things this would replace are already almost completely automated and currently this seems too inefficient to replace the output of Asian sweatshops. As with all things: convenience wins out, unless the build time is reduced to a matter of minutes I don't see this replacing the average persons shopping trips any time soon.

[gaelic cowboy]

Feinstein is gonna have a heart attack when she sees this.

Never mind Feinstein every company ceo, bankster, investor vampire squid and pension fund will run in fear from this.
3d printing has far bigger implications than your puny attempts at gun laws, there is an entire social and economic order about to be turfed out.

[gaelic cowboy]

Hey maybe we'll finally go all star trek and become directionless hippies :
I don't think too many would be out of work, at least in the service based western economies, most of the things this would replace are already almost completely automated and this seems really inefficient for bulk manufacturing. As with all things: convenience wins out, unless the build time is reduced to a matter of minutes I don't see this replacing the average persons shopping trips any time soon.

if only but i am afraid it will be very disruptive and unfortunately millions of people worldwide will lose there jobs.

The exporting of goods could and probably will end in the majority of cases, people will get stuff printed locally and delivered by post.

It will be impossible to police intelectual property effectively so companies will have to switch to providing services or go bust.

[Hooahguy]

Never mind Feinstein every company ceo, bankster, investor vampire squid and pension fund will run in fear from this.
3d printing has far bigger implications than your puny attempts at gun laws, there is an entire social and economic order about to be turfed out.

True, though only when 3D printers become more available.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Right. The internet is the coolest thing in the history of the world to date. Home 3d printing is high on that list as well

[HopAlongBunny]

I just think of how short the logistics chain becomes and the huge number of jobs that go "bye bye". Cheap only matters if you have a job/money.

[gaelic cowboy]

I just think of how short the logistics chain becomes and the huge number of jobs that go "bye bye". Cheap only matters if you have a job/money.

There are massive social implications that will have real world economic implications, if you can print a BMW or a Mercedes how does a person advertise there high status.

I am guessing certain mass market luxury brands will disappear as people display high status through bespoke design.

[Idaho]

Those with the control of raw materials, land and energy reserves will have what they want. The rest of us will be whoring to pay for some gunge for the replicator tank so we can get shoes for the kids. A bit like now really.

[gaelic cowboy]

Those with the control of raw materials, land and energy reserves will have what they want. The rest of us will be whoring to pay for some gunge for the replicator tank so we can get shoes for the kids. A bit like now really.

Indeed that is a given.

[Husar]

As long as I can print myself a crossbow, I'll be happy. I assume the wood and sinew are not a problem, I'll just put a block of wood and a pig into the printer.

This is nice technology but I wouldn't expect the revolution just yet, it's going to cost a lot and the metal printer probably uses quite a bit of electric energy as well, so if every household had one we'd have to turn all the lights of to be able to use them...
Unless we plan to put a NPP into every town.

[HoreTore]

I think it's cute how gun control is linked to 3D-printing.

Of all the useless things to care about.....

[Idaho]

I love the name "Defence Distributed". I wonder how long it takes before someone defends the crap out of some school kids with one of these?

[Idaho]

I think it's cute how gun control is linked to 3D-printing.

Of all the useless things to care about.....

American libertarians are nut jobs, but they have money and an interest in science and innovation, so they are preferable to American religious nut jobs.

[HoreTore]

I love the name "Defence Distributed". I wonder how long it takes before someone defends the crap out of some school kids with one of these?

Well, if you had mental capabilities well below any normal person, your answer to that would be "then we'll arm them teachers with dem paper guns hurr durr"...


American libertarians are nut jobs, but they have money and an interest in science and innovation, so they are preferable to American religious nut jobs.

I've been all giddy over the prospect of 3d-printing for the last 5 years or so. The possibilities are beyond counting. To then see it used like this.... I feel abused.

[HoreTore]

As usual, the Europeans fail to understand a key part of our culture. Its okay, we forgive you for it. That's why generation after generation left your continent for this one in the first place. :bow:

"Your" culture....?

Last I checked, roughly half of your population was in favour of stricter gun control. How did you manage to mentally spirit away 150 million people? Are they lesser Americans, or what?

If you want to call something "your culture", it would seem that "bitching, whining and generally disagreeing on the level of gun availability" is your culture.

[Kralizec]

Next: the US government, and states across the world, restrict the availability of 3D-printers.

Carry on.

[Idaho]

"Your" culture....?

Last I checked, roughly half of your population was in favour of stricter gun control. How did you manage to mentally spirit away 150 million people? Are they lesser Americans, or what?

If you want to call something "your culture", it would seem that "bitching, whining and generally disagreeing on the level of gun availability" is your culture.

It's sort of a feature of right leaning Americans that they see their culture (well usually the imaginary culture of 30 years before) as being the finished article. That human culture is not under constant change.

Actually it's all conservatives. That's why it's such a contradiction of being obsessed with the past, yet totally ahistorical.

[Idaho]

As usual, the Europeans fail to understand a key part of our culture. Its okay, we forgive you for it. That's why generation after generation left your continent for this one in the first place. :bow:

I have never for once suggested that you yanks be prevented from shooting the crap out of each other. Go for it.

As for the US being some ultimate bastion of human migration - a perfect example of the ahistorical poppycock I alluded to on my last post.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Wow. Imagine the computer parts you could make with this stuff.



The parts might be big at first but you could print hundreds of chips and essentially create a super computer.

Eh no. The problem with "big" is not just that you need a lot of space, but also that there is physically more stuff of which you need to coerce electrons to do your bidding. Coercing takes power, which means heat, which means coolers. Additionally longer wires have long propagation delays, which means lower clock speeds, which means less bang per buck of electricity bill and less performance. Additionally the bigger package, thermal and power enveloppes mean that even relatively straightforward electronics won't "fit" in the packages we currently expect.

You need semi-conductors, and you need them to be tiny (order of magnitude of now more than a few tens of nm) because you need to cram in millions of them. Then you need to have good switching properties for your semi conductors, which also means longevity and longevity of semi-conductors is not improved by applying more force (more power) or running at higher temps (melting). You also have industrial specs to contend with which may require typically -45°C to 80°C ambient temperature operating range, even for CPU's.

For modern CPU's we are currently down to such a scale that only a few atoms of Si can fit together in the wire (22nm) and the material has to be subjected to quite some special treatment to achieve this (basically "stretching" the atoms). Parts are cut out by means of intense (i.e. human-frying) UV radiation, and doping the semi-conductors is a lot trickier at that scale as traditional doping would not yield sufficient conductivity at all when the semi-conductor is switched "on". Try injection-printing that.



You could print a house or a car if you like, maybe you fancy building a corporate jet or a spaceshuttle. The only limit is the size of the printer and the material for the printer itself.

But even that can be overcome with some clever CAD design (or download someone elses)

Not if you need the thing to behave as "a solid thing". That is traditionally overcome with welding, but how will 3d printed stuff take to industrial welding? That's a major headache with current aerospace techniques already given the operating parameters the parts are subjected to.

[HoreTore]

You didn't get it. 100% percent of Americans would rather trust their own devices than the government. For now, that Arena is gun control, but that struggle encompasses lots of different facets of American life throughout the centuries. Its also why, in a discussion like this, some of us look over at Europe and just shake our heads.

Pure nonsense, but an A+ for your attempt at rewriting history.

What you say might be correct for rural areas - but the situation is mostly the same in rural areas over here as well. The US has been a shining star and example in both the development of international communism AND our modern social democracies with our welfare states. 30 years of your current neo-con wankathlon does not diminsh the contribution America has given in those fields.

And that, might I add, was a contribution from the american urban working class. The American masses.

[Tellos Athenaios]

That's why generation after generation left your continent for this one in the first place. :bow:

I believe the expression is:

Bollox. :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::lau gh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Thanks! I'm flu ridden so I can do with a laugh or two to cheer me up. :yes:

[Kralizec]

No, no. Not an ultimate bastion of anything. Just the result of imperial conquest (by Europeans), hundreds of years of colonial warfare and intercontinental exploitation (by Europeans) that led to mass migration after (often forced--looking at you, Irish and Slaves) mass migration, and finally--in the early 1900s while you were all busy killing eachother by the millions--an actual bastion of migration away from the evils of a Europe that still can't get along after thousands of years of being packed in closer than sardines in a can. Forgive me for thinking there's a cultural gap.

Meh, a lot of those people went to the USA for economic reasons, real or perceived, and were encouraged by the US government to do so. For example I've read that in the late 19th century many impoverished Dutch people were deliberately lured to settle in Texas with images of a tropic paradise, with palm trees and whatnot. Imagine how dissapointed they must have been.

[HoreTore]

There were several migration waves to the US, all with different reasons for doing so.

If you want broad categorizations, I guess you could say that the first waves were based on oppression, while the later ones(post 1800's) were economically based.

A lot the famous ones from England/Dutchies/France were due to religious oppression. At the other extreme, all of the ones who left scandinavia did so for economic(or adventerous, I guess) reasons. Weirdly enough, all of the groups we've oppressed over the years have stayed put... Not even the Finns left!

[ICantSpellDawg]

Anything that would cause Europeans to eschew technological progress gives us the advantage. 3d printed guns could very well scare them off, more lunch for us.

[gaelic cowboy]

Eh no. The problem with "big" is not just that you need a lot of space, but also that there is physically more stuff of which you need to coerce electrons to do your bidding. Coercing takes power, which means heat, which means coolers. Additionally longer wires have long propagation delays, which means lower clock speeds, which means less bang per buck of electricity bill and less performance. Additionally the bigger package, thermal and power enveloppes mean that even relatively straightforward electronics won't "fit" in the packages we currently expect.


You need semi-conductors, and you need them to be tiny (order of magnitude of now more than a few tens of nm) because you need to cram in millions of them. Then you need to have good switching properties for your semi conductors, which also means longevity and longevity of semi-conductors is not improved by applying more force (more power) or running at higher temps (melting). You also have industrial specs to contend with which may require typically -45°C to 80°C ambient temperature operating range, even for CPU's.

For modern CPU's we are currently down to such a scale that only a few atoms of Si can fit together in the wire (22nm) and the material has to be subjected to quite some special treatment to achieve this (basically "stretching" the atoms). Parts are cut out by means of intense (i.e. human-frying) UV radiation, and doping the semi-conductors is a lot trickier at that scale as traditional doping would not yield sufficient conductivity at all when the semi-conductor is switched "on". Try injection-printing that.


People thought we would never get to 12in wafers either so of course people will print microprocessors eventually.



Not if you need the thing to behave as "a solid thing". That is traditionally overcome with welding, but how will 3d printed stuff take to industrial welding? That's a major headache with current aerospace techniques already given the operating parameters the parts are subjected to.



You dont need welding in 3d printing, remember the process is additive so you can print a frame fully assembled. Aerospace people are looking at printing hollow parts which would lighten a plane and still retain the majority of the strength.

the possibilities are only limited by size and materials in my view

Chocolate 3-D Printer Arrives At Last (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/07/chocolate-3-d-printer-arrives-at-last/)

3D Printing, Now in Glass (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/3d-printing-now-in-glass/)

It's a cliche to say it's going to change everything but I guessing it will be pretty close to it.

[Strike For The South]

Meh, Not impressed.

Is this supposed to be how we get around the evil tyranny?

Because you can find plenty of parts around, maybe not in New York, the ammo is the rub

GET WITH THE PROGRAM PEOPLE, LEARN HOW YOU'RE BEING OPPRESSED.

[Montmorency]

GET WITH THE PROGRAM PEOPLE, LEARN HOW YOU'RE BEING OPPRESSED.

Tell us.

[Strike For The South]

Tell us.

That was the end of my joke.

You seem to think I am holding back some sort of awesome knowledge.

I am a drunk butcher, I AM YOUR PAPER GOD

[Fragony]

There were several migration waves to the US, all with different reasons for doing so.

If you want broad categorizations, I guess you could say that the first waves were based on oppression, while the later ones(post 1800's) were economically based.

A lot the famous ones from England/Dutchies/France were due to religious oppression. At the other extreme, all of the ones who left scandinavia did so for economic(or adventerous, I guess) reasons. Weirdly enough, all of the groups we've oppressed over the years have stayed put... Not even the Finns left!

There has never been religious oppression in the Netherlands...

[Beskar]

Why do I have a mental image of a computer virus 3D printing a bomb on all affected computers?

Food for thought.

[Montmorency]

Material constraints.

But a virus, I'm sure, could potentially waste all the 'ink' and muck-up the machine. That's plausible.

[Beskar]

Material constraints.

But a virus, I'm sure, could potentially waste all the 'ink' and muck-up the machine. That's plausible.

True, but many people are assuming a lot of complicated machinery like a space rocket can be made, so in that sort of light, some kind of IED could be created.

[Tellos Athenaios]

People thought we would never get to 12in wafers either so of course people will print microprocessors eventually.

Fundamentally there is a difference between cutting out and printing. On the one hand you have a solid which you know "works" and can be cut repeatedly to trim it down to the required size,on the other you have to hope the right bits (i.e. doped versus normal) land up at the right place (a few nm difference) and then the bits you "spray" have to be of less than the required size because you can only add more of them. You have to be able to aim with nm precision here.

Cutting is considerably easier to do, no need for moving parts with nm precision.



You dont need welding in 3d printing, remember the process is additive so you can print a frame fully assembled. Aerospace people are looking at printing hollow parts which would lighten a plane and still retain the majority of the strength.

Yes but then you need to produce the thing in one go, i.e. no prefabbed parts and assembly. So either you need to be able to 3d-print as big as your parts need to be (in the case of aerospace, very big) or you need to weld.

[HoreTore]

There has never been religious oppression in the Netherlands...

The most famous of them all, the Mayflower pilgrims, set sail from dutchistan, and their reason for migrating was to escape religious persecution ~;)

[Husar]

Anything that would cause Europeans to eschew technological progress gives us the advantage. 3d printed guns could very well scare them off, more lunch for us.

And you need all the lunch you can get, because while you're printing guns and celebrating your blackpowderian superiority, 15 million of you are suffering from hunger or malnutrition, probably being very proud to live in such a great country where you can suffer hunger and be called a moocher at the same time! Yeah, the availability of guns is really the most pressing issue you should worry about...

Edit: These photos of the weapons Syrian rebels use (http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/02/diy-weapons-of-the-syrian-rebels/100461/) also show that some craftsmanship, education and other perks can help as well if you ever have to oppose the government. A 3D printer is not the only way to make your own gun, you have to know a lot about materials and how a gun works anyway. The fixation on guns ignores other important issues and that's a real problem, a lack of guns surely isn't a problem in America.

Edit 2: How's that fiscal cliff coming along anyway?

[Fragony]

The most famous of them all, the Mayflower pilgrims, set sail from dutchistan, and their reason for migrating was to escape religious persecution ~;)

They set sail from the Netherlands, but they weren't prosecuted in the Netherlands but in England. There has never been any here that's why they came here initially. The south is catholic and the north protestant

[HoreTore]

They set sail from the Netherlands, but they weren't prosecuted in the Netherlands but in England. There has never been any here that's why they came here initially

Never said there was any ~;)

Well.... Not counting the Jews you willingly rounded up and sent eastwards 70 years ago, of course...

[Fragony]

Never said there was any ~;)

Well.... Not counting the Jews you willingly rounded up and sent eastwards 70 years ago, of course...

Yes no less than a 100.000 died, makes you wonder why there were so many of them.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Have you ever noticed that Americans are all:

"Herr derr, I hate my government. Always taking my freedoms, always getting bigger."

And then you got these Europeans who are all like:

"You silly Americans, always defiant against programs and institutions which are in your best interests."

Even though Americans had the conviction to scrap the Articles of Confederation for being too weak and replaced it with the Constitution. And it's the Europeans who try to skate by on a weak EU whose answer for irresponsible member states....is to give them more German money.

Here's another joke, a Norwegian walks into a thread with the presumption that the Nordic model is sustainable beyond our current oil driven society, then proceeds to call other people nutjobs!


Jeeze, tough crowd here. What's the deal with airline food?

[Conradus]

There has never been religious oppression in the Netherlands...

Catholicism has been outlawed in the Netherlands from 1580-1850.

[Fragony]

Catholicism has been outlawed in the Netherlands from 1580-1850.

Not outlawed, protestant was just the state religion. Catholics have never been prosecuted for being catholics. You are probably referring to the haagepreken

[HoreTore]

Not outlawed, protestant was just the state religion. Catholics have never been prosecuted for being catholics. You are probably referring to the haagepreken

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/ren/summary/v061/61.4.harline.html

That fits the term "persecution" in my book.

[Fragony]

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/ren/summary/v061/61.4.harline.html

That fits the term "persecution" in my book.

In great Dutch tradition catholic services were tolerated, there were arrangements to keep it invisible though. It was outlawed nor recognised.

[gaelic cowboy]

Fundamentally there is a difference between cutting out and printing. On the one hand you have a solid which you know "works" and can be cut repeatedly to trim it down to the required size,on the other you have to hope the right bits (i.e. doped versus normal) land up at the right place (a few nm difference) and then the bits you "spray" have to be of less than the required size because you can only add more of them. You have to be able to aim with nm precision here.

of course but seeing as were already very close to being able to print circuit boards it's likely that something like a very simple processor will be printed in the next 10yrs. Very soon no doubt people will print the board on which the processor sits and buy summit off the web to sit in it.

Once your doing that the drive to complete the circle will be immense.


Cutting is considerably easier to do, no need for moving parts with nm precision.

But cutting is wasteful and it has limitations on geometry that are not as prevalent in additive manufacture.







Yes but then you need to produce the thing in one go, i.e. no prefabbed parts and assembly. So either you need to be able to 3d-print as big as your parts need to be (in the case of aerospace, very big) or you need to weld.

one could imagine a scenario where a frame is extruded from a printer that inches along a track inside a large warehouse.


also welding does not appear to be a problem (http://prometheusfusionperfection.com/2011/09/16/welding-3d-printed-steel/)

[Idaho]

All these waves of immigrants to the US got there only to discover they were expected to fit in and shut up.

The land of the free. Providing universal suffrage since 1968.

[Fragony]

All these waves of immigrants to the US got there only to discover they were expected to fit in and shut up.

The land of the free. Providing universal suffrage since 1968.

In great contrast to the EU you mean? I'll take the American attitude towards individualism over European collectivist apathy every day, too bad that I don't want to live anywhere else but the Netherlands

[Husar]

Have you ever noticed that Americans are all:

"Herr derr, I hate my government. Always taking my freedoms, always getting bigger."

And then you got these Europeans who are all like:

"You silly Americans, always defiant against programs and institutions which are in your best interests."

Even though Americans had the conviction to scrap the Articles of Confederation for being too weak and replaced it with the Constitution. And it's the Europeans who try to skate by on a weak EU whose answer for irresponsible member states....is to give them more German money.

Here's another joke, a Norwegian walks into a thread with the presumption that the Nordic model is sustainable beyond our current oil driven society, then proceeds to call other people nutjobs!


Jeeze, tough crowd here. What's the deal with airline food?

And then this American comes into the pub telling everyone how they should not scoff at the American model.
Two days before the fiscal cliff destroys the American economy.

[Fragony]

And then this American comes into the pub telling everyone how they should not scoff at the American model.
Two days before the fiscal cliff destroys the American economy.

Better get used to some hardships as well

[Husar]

Better get used to some hardships as well

Don't worry, I'll just print myself some ground horse meat lasagne if it gets too bad.

[gaelic cowboy]

Don't worry, I'll just print myself some ground horse meat lasagne if it gets too bad.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6WzyUgbT5A

there way ahead of ye (http://3dprintingindustry.com/food/)

[Idaho]

In great contrast to the EU you mean? I'll take the American attitude towards individualism over European collectivist apathy every day, too bad that I don't want to live anywhere else but the Netherlands

:laugh4: you are an archetypal conservative frag. A bundle of contradictions.

[Fragony]

:laugh4: you are an archetypal conservative frag. A bundle of contradictions.

Not really, there is a desillusioned idealism to cynism

[HoreTore]

Have you ever noticed that Americans are all:

"Herr derr, I hate my government. Always taking my freedoms, always getting bigger."

And then you got these Europeans who are all like:

"You silly Americans, always defiant against programs and institutions which are in your best interests."

Even though Americans had the conviction to scrap the Articles of Confederation for being too weak and replaced it with the Constitution. And it's the Europeans who try to skate by on a weak EU whose answer for irresponsible member states....is to give them more German money.

Here's another joke, a Norwegian walks into a thread with the presumption that the Nordic model is sustainable beyond our current oil driven society, then proceeds to call other people nutjobs!


Jeeze, tough crowd here. What's the deal with airline food?

I can't believe I missed this post. Nominated for Post of the Year!

[HoreTore]

In great Dutch tradition catholic services were tolerated, there were arrangements to keep it invisible though. It was outlawed nor recognised.

So.....

Basically, you had the same attitude towarda other religions as the muslims states of the middle ages had?

I agree, that is quite liberal of you.

[Fragony]

So.....

Basically, you had the same attitude towarda other religions as the muslims states of the middle ages had?

I agree, that is quite liberal of you.

What does it matter how they did things ages ago? Wasn't that like, well like hundreds of years ago. Nowadays arab militias are burning down christian churches, you can't know that if you rely on quality newspapers but that's happening

[HoreTore]

What does it matter how they did things ages ago? Wasn't that like, well like hundreds of years ago. Nowadays arab militias are burning down christian churches, you can't know that if you rely on quality newspapers but that's happening

So cute ~:)

[Fragony]

So cute ~:)

So normal, people furiously screaming they are progressive will always defend ultra-conservatism and will never see the inherent contradiction

[Kralizec]

There has never been religious oppression in the Netherlands...

Catholicism has been outlawed in the Netherlands from 1580-1850.

Papists don't count.

[Fragony]

Papists don't count.

It just isn't true

[Kralizec]

It just isn't true

What? That catholics were opressed?

Opression is a relative term, I suppose. Catholics weren´t allowed to openly practice or endorse their own religion, and I imagine that would have been a good enough reason for some to emigrate to, say, the USA.

There was no functional hiearchy for the catholic church until the second half of the 19th century, when the last restrictions were lifted and the Pope decided to rebuild the church organisation in the Netherlands. This caused widespread unrest in the protestant parts of the lands, and our king showed his support for the unrest by saying he understood where they were coming from and that he wasn´t a fan of the papists either. This prompted our government (led by Thorbecke) to resign, and this in turn led to the tradition that the king/queen doesn´t open his mouth without consulting the PM.

[Tellos Athenaios]

They set sail from the Netherlands, but they weren't prosecuted in the Netherlands but in England.
Exactly. The Pilgrim Fathers set sail to America because Leiden was a tad too happy to let everyone live side by side without much care for their religions convictions, and the Pilgrim Fathers wanted to create their little utopia wherein they would be the one doing the religious prosecuting of anyone not quite protestant enough (in their eyes).

[Greyblades]

Exactly. The Pilgrim Fathers set sail to America because Leiden was a tad too happy to let everyone live side by side without much care for their religions convictions, and the Pilgrim Fathers wanted to create their little utopia wherein they would be the one doing the religious prosecuting of anyone not quite protestant enough (in their eyes).

... Not sure if sarcastic or misinformed.

[Conradus]

It just isn't true

After the Dutch insurrection, Catholicism was considered an illegal religion. Normal Catholic celebrations were not possible in the United Provinces, therefore Pope Clement VIII decided in 1592 to declare the area above the river Waal as a mission area, as large portions of the area's population had fallen to Protestantism, at least officially, except for some minor staunchly Catholic regions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Mission

In practice, Catholic services in all provinces were quickly forbidden and the Reformed Church became the "public" or "privileged" church in the Republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Republic#Religion

[HoreTore]

No he's half right. It went both ways. But this entire discussion is a microcosm of a huge issue: No matter where you are in the world or your station in life, your perspective is still colored by local versions of history. Europeans deny their horrible history even better than we do. But of course we learned from the best

What I find most intresting is the "national myth" we all have. For example, in Norway it's the image of the "independent farmer"("storbonde" in norwegian, not sure how to translate it properly) as the foundation of our nation. We have a romantic image of the farmer who grew his potatoes, managed his sheep and so on. The manliest of men who managed his life without outside influence. Of course, a quick look at the map tells a different story: we have one of the longest coastlines in the world. The waters outside are filled with fish. Rather than being funded on agriculture in the inner regions, we've been funded on fishing along the coast. Our wealth has come almost exclusively from our merchant navy, indeed those farmers would never have survived if they had not been able to transport wood down the rivers and onto the ships.

I believe the US claim that "an american wants the state to go away" belongs in the same category. It can only be true if you choose to ignore huge parts of your history and population.

[HoreTore]

Depends on how you pick your generalizations. Pick any American off the street and ask him or her about their grievances with the system, and you'll get an earful. The talking points are partisan but the mistrust of the establishment (not just the government) is universal. It defines us.

....and you think Europe is any different?

You've read Frag and IA's posts, right?

[Greyblades]

No he's half right. It went both ways. But this entire discussion is a microcosm of a huge issue: No matter where you are in the world or your station in life, your perspective is still colored by local versions of history. Europeans deny their horrible history even better than we do. But of course we learned from the best

We do? I thought we just refused to even acknowledge it's existance and hope the next generations dont find out.

Personally I think the good parts resulting from european history outweigh the bad in the end. I wish, like in every chapter of history, that the bad stuff didnt happen but you gotta take the mistakes into account or risk repeating them.

[The Lurker Below]

hmmm mmmm mmmhmmhmm hhmmmm

er, thank you mr. inventor of the chocolate printer

[Strike For The South]

The United States is basically a commonwealth nation.

We are all on the same sliding scale of ideas.

The only place where these places diverge is bigotry

The United States is years ahead of the rest of the commonwealth

[Greyblades]

Assuming you're talking about the british commonwealth: It's only that way because we split apart.

If I was feeling bitter I'd say it was because of America's meddling that happened.

Oh wait, I am feeling bitter.

[Strike For The South]

What other commonwealth would I be talking about?

[Greyblades]

Well you just called America a commonwealth so the definition is kinda up in the air.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think it is sometimes difficult to tell if one nations political trends are being exported to another's, or if these trends developed organically in both countries, with this just happening a little later in one than the other.

I've heard a couple of hints that certain parts of British politics are being 'Americanised' in the sense that we are moving towards a sort of neo-con (eg 'I hate the government)/liberal-left divide. I've even read articles that Britain might be developing something akin to the USA's Religious Right.

I think there is some truth in these observations. But is this because we are being influenced by American politics, or is this a more natural development that resembles what happened in the USA a couple of decades beforehand?

[Greyblades]

(unless that ideal is how to conquer--just ask Hitler, he used the USA's treatment of the Indians as one of his justifications for the holocaust; he called the Jews "The Indians of Europe")
Hah! Good one! Conquer! Hillarious!

[ICantSpellDawg]

Here is another great site (http://thegunwire.com/) about my obsession with guns.

[Greyblades]

Yes. Conquer. Through ethnic cleansing and outright imperialism (Mexican-American War, Spanish-American War, Phillipene Insurgency, you name it) we had an empire Larger than the Continent of Europe before WWI even started. So, yeah. Its a good blue print.
Really?

America had one, maybe two bouts of successful conquest (a good part of the mexican land america took was occupied by people who were literally asking to join you, not exactly conquering) then stopped and went on to messy invasions and intentionally temporary occupations.

America is good at propaganda, great at beating up natives, but keeping the lands and peeved off indigenous peoples in your country for any length of time? Kinda lacking compared to European empires, its takings are comparable to belgium. America has a long way to go before it teaches master classes, if you know what I mean.

[Greyblades]

Results? America only had one successful conquest that lasted for more than fourty years and it was because half of them literaly asked you to do it. Since the thirties America as been too squeamish to annex anything that so much as lifts a finger against it and recently its become so self-righteous taking land by force has become unthinkable without a shed load of misinformation and a promise from the start of pulling out.
You're big, you're powerful, you're on top, but that means nothing here because we're comparing conquests not power, and when it comes to conquest you haven't even topped Belgium!


*Furthermore, Iraq, Vietnam, and pretty much every war in recent memory, was a war for something other than territorial conquest. Do you think we couldn't have gone Ghengis Khan on the entire middle east if we wanted to? Did you see what we did to Iraq's Army, TWICE!?Um, are you under the impression I'm saying you arent powerful? Because I'm not, I'm saying your track record of conquest it kinda puny compared to europe's.


The rest of the world is just lucky our government isn't in the territorial conquest game any more. I wish you were, I want my united world government now dangit!

[Greyblades]

No, you silly European. I'm explaining to you why Hitler used the USA (in small part) as a blueprint for expansion....He failed, hard
Because our method has worked where others haven't....Dude our methods worked pretty well, we took over the world didnt we? They failed for him, hard.
That has more to it than just acquiring territory, its about who's on the territory and how fast you can pacify or exterminate them. ...Yeah, europeans followed that method too, and even if we didnt; europe did better than america in spite of America's 'better methods'. Hitler also failed at that too, hard.


Now, as I recall, when Hitler had a technological and procedural advantage over Europe, he won. He won pretty hard. It took the combined efforts of the USA and (arguable the only country more ruthless than us) the USSR to beat them, so... Europe's not looking too good here. Only France really, the germans and italians could say that it makes them really good.
Let go of that pride, and accept the fact that you're all stuck on that little continent with eachother, speaking different languages and getting all riled up about every little thing, because none of you could ever succeed at beating eachother up to the point of total conquest until Hitler came alongThat's because every time someone tried Britain supported the opposition, keeping the balance of power was britain's schtick.
--and you're lucky the two big guys were there to help for that, or else you'd all be speaking German (and you'd probably be the world's largest power, too)....ignoring that you just unfairly sidelined Britain, Hitler started with half of europe already his, a pact with russia not to kill eachother, a numbers advantage, tech advantage, and his generals were good enough to completely do over the french.

He still failed, hard.


So.. what I'm saying is that Hitler was right, and you should be afraid of America. I wasnt arguing that point, I was saying that america has been a mediocre conqueror compared to europeans in spite of it's size and power, I am now saying that the guy who advocated america as a blueprint for territorial expansion himself sucked at it.

[Montmorency]

America has very rarely practiced outright territorial annexation and incorporation. It prefers vassalization.

[Greyblades]

Dude, Britain wasnt a vassal until the 1950's-60's when you used our weakened state to pressure us into dispanding the empire.

[Greyblades]

Yes I wasnt arguing that point, I'm still saying we are better conqerors.


*Greyblades totally missed my point though. Hitler would have won, and Europe would have been much stronger (militarily and strategically) and certainly more unified and independant in the face of the rest of the world. The USA and the USSR couldn't have that. Europe today is just a collection of satellite states.
Actually I am of the impression that had Germany carried on with out getting you or russia involved Britain and Germany would have devolved into a stalemate ending with one starving the other enough to surrender.

[Greyblades]

Well now I'm confused, lets see... I probably misinterprited one of your posts and made challenge saying that american methods of conquest weren't a good blueprint, you seemed misinterprit it and responded as if I said america sucked, then we went back and forth tearing eachother's posts to pieces with no real goal (You know, like every other argument in this forum)

[Greyblades]

Ugh, not again, You know what I say Europe were better conquerors, America were better power players, can we call this pointless and move on?

[Greyblades]

My ultimate point was that you Europeans should learn to get along, and quickly adopt a stronger and more unified federal structure. Your failure to do so as a continent is your legacy of failure--and your brutal methods for attempting to gain the upper hand over eachother (which is all that your Imperialistic Conquests ever were) don't amount to a legacy of military success at all in the big picture.
Huh, I dont think anyone in history has ever done that, even america's "sucess" is a direct result of constant attempts to gain the upper hand actually succeeding; Britain's sucess in gaining the upper hand over France and spain, the colonist's success in gaining the upper hand over Britain, The USA's success in gaining the upper hand over Mexico, the Unionists sucess in gaining the upper hand over the confederates, America getting the upper hand over Europe, America gaining the upper hand over Russia to finally become on top.

[Greyblades]

They didn't succeed at all! Many of your former colonial conquests are stronger than the nations they came from. In attempting to exploit the world to gain that upper hand, they sowed the seeds of their own destruction, and now Europe's only hope on the world stage is peaceful unification. Why the USA's legacy is more successful than yours is discernable on a map, for the same reason Russia's is: A whole lot of space where people used to live, but they all died or assimilated. Most of America is still just empty space waiting to be populated by the next generations. That is an unequivocal success, even if it was gotten in a horrible way (and it was--the US Government's treatment of the Natives should go down in history as something every bit as bad as the holocaust). Europe, due to a complete lack of success in gaining the upper hand over eachother, now finds itself faced with having to do something that's never been done: Peaceful Unification of an entire Continent. In the end, after all, Europeans share more in common with eachother than they do with anybody else--including Americans.

I dont think I said they did succeed, I said you succeeded. The USA's success is a result of it's own attempts to gain the upper hand over it's neighbours, China's success was due to the same, Russia too, there is no precident of spontanious peaceful unification.

[Fragony]

After the Dutch insurrection, Catholicism was considered an illegal religion. Normal Catholic celebrations were not possible in the United Provinces, therefore Pope Clement VIII decided in 1592 to declare the area above the river Waal as a mission area, as large portions of the area's population had fallen to Protestantism, at least officially, except for some minor staunchly Catholic regions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Mission

In practice, Catholic services in all provinces were quickly forbidden and the Reformed Church became the "public" or "privileged" church in the Republic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Republic#Religion

They were forbidden only on paper, in practise they were allowed. There were time-schedules to avoid eachother. No political power for the Vatican though

[Husar]

Well, don't forget that there are quite a few instances where European nations or governments worked together against outside threats. For example when the Polish and others helped defend Vienna against the Ottomans and so on. I agree that a full unification is desirable though.

And as for the whole conquering thing, it's laughable because the American settlers faced technologically inferior Native Americans while the European powers were mostly on the same level. Siberia is mostly empty space, not hard to conquer but also not very useful for settling and food production. And settling more people in the Nevada desert will eat up a lot of resources, probably more than you can get from the desert. In the same way many of the European conquests for colonies were against inferior enemies.

A better question may be why European warfare was superior to that of many other nations or tribes around the world? And maybe that was because of all the fighting between equal nations and a strive to improve one's own weaponry, which then inevitably spread to other factions, maintaining the power balance within Europe, but also raising the war tech above that of other people around the world. And then all the misery also brought up all these ideas of how to get peace that led to enlightenment etc.

Americans just built on this advantage the Europeans had acquired to conquer their territory against inferior enemies. In the modern day and age, I'd argue it's more useful to work together than against one another however. And it's somewhat weird to say that Europe has missed that trend because the EU still exists. The small guy may not support it but the small guy in America is hoarding assault rifles to bring down the federal government one day so there's not that much of a difference...

[Fragony]

My ultimate point was that you Europeans should learn to get along, and quickly adopt a stronger and more unified federal structure. Your failure to do so as a continent is your legacy of failure--and your brutal methods for attempting to gain the upper hand over eachother (which is all that your Imperialistic Conquests ever were) don't amount to a legacy of military success at all in the big picture.

Europe is a continent only on a map, it's no entity.

[Montmorency]

Europe is a continent only on a map

You consider yourself a Eurasian?

[Visor]

You consider yourself a Eurasian?

Eastasian.

[Fragony]

You consider yourself a Eurasian?

I am Dutch. The Netherlands is a country on the continent of Europe, that's all.

[Idaho]

My ultimate point was that you Europeans should learn to get along, and quickly adopt a stronger and more unified federal structure. Your failure to do so as a continent is your legacy of failure--and your brutal methods for attempting to gain the upper hand over eachother (which is all that your Imperialistic Conquests ever were) don't amount to a legacy of military success at all in the big picture.
Eh? There is this new idea called the treaty of Rome. The aim is to get some kind of European union.. It's quite a new project, pie in the sky, so you probably haven't heard of it. Hopefully it will stop the dozens of European wars we've had in the last 100 years.

[Idaho]

Europe isn't a real continent. It's a political area rather than a geographical one.

[Fragony]

Europe isn't a real continent. It's a political area rather than a geographical one.

So true.

Dear Americans, we are not like you, there is no Europe. France still has nukes aimed at every major city in Germany England and the Neds ffs

[Husar]

So true.

Dear Americans, we are not like you, there is no Europe. France still has nukes aimed at every major city in Germany England and the Neds ffs

That's got to be a funny attempt to undermine the Franco-German friendship. First of all what does "aimed at" mean concerning nukes? Was the mouse pointer of the controller found hovering over Germany while he was on the toilet or was that just the flight data they entered sometime during the cold war and just never changed due to a lack of new threats? And are they aimed there to destroy Germany or to stop a Russian invasion? Because, you know, pretty much everyone had nukes "aimed at" Germany during the cold war...
You say that as though France still thinks Germany wants to invade it but that's pure europhobic hysteria.

[Papewaio]

As much as I admire weapons grade manufacturing at home as an indication of how much 3D printing has matured for home enthusiasts it isn't the start of a revolution.

A printer does not an author make. Neither will 3D printers make everyone into a machinist.

It should allow more creativity, shorter supply chains and many interesting things that will upset the current paradigms far more then just weapons. Hopefully it will create more makers then breakers in the long run.

[Conradus]

They were forbidden only on paper, in practise they were allowed. There were time-schedules to avoid eachother. No political power for the Vatican though

Nor any public offices for Roman Catholics, fines if you let your house be used for religious practices etc. It's not because Catholics weren't burned at the stake, that they were free. By our definitions, the Dutch Republic suppressed Catholicism.

[Fragony]

Nor any public offices for Roman Catholics, fines if you let your house be used for religious practices etc. It's not because Catholics weren't burned at the stake, that they were free. By our definitions, the Dutch Republic suppressed Catholicism.

Surpressed the Vatican, but catholics weren't harmed. The catholic church was a political power that was cut off because of the war with Spain and that remained, but catholics were allowed to practise, but discretely.

[gaelic cowboy]

Surpressed the Vatican, but catholics weren't harmed. The catholic church was a political power that was cut off because of the war with Spain and that remained, but catholics were allowed to practise, but discretely.

That's a load of rubbish by your own words they were suppressed if they couldnt be open about religious observance.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Never said there was any ~;)

Well.... Not counting the Jews you willingly rounded up and sent eastwards 70 years ago, of course...

There was quite a lot of intolerance and persecution under the Hapsburgs, though it can be argued that it was not then "The Netherlands." Persecution did not occur as The Netherlands, but certainly a degree of intolerance was practiced, with non-Calvanists or Jews (Jews could and did openly worship and participate in government) functionally barred from government office and Lutheran and other non-Calvinist churches required to practice their faith in private and in churches that conformed to Calvinist decorative standards.

I am less certain about the "willingness" to support the Holacaust. I wonder how much was willing versus how much was "unwilling to pay the cost of overt opposition." Neither position, of course, is morally perfect, but the latter seems a touch less like active persecution.

[Furunculus]

It's sort of a feature of right leaning Americans that they see their culture (well usually the imaginary culture of 30 years before) as being the finished article. That human culture is not under constant change.

Actually it's all conservatives. That's why it's such a contradiction of being obsessed with the past, yet totally ahistorical.

Baron Hailsham:


the role of Conservatism is not to oppose all change but to resist and balance the volatility of current political fads and ideology, and to defend a middle position that enshrines a slowly-changing organic humane traditionalism.

[Fragony]

That's a load of rubbish by your own words they were suppressed if they couldnt be open about religious observance.

Of course there was religious intolerance, but catholics were never prosecuted. There were seperate hours, and there were the haagepreken, that was well known by everyone, it was the political power of the vatican that was cut off.

[gaelic cowboy]

Baron Hailsham:

"those Roman Catholic bastards have no right to interfere!"

Yea mighty fella indeed was the bould baron

[HoreTore]

There was quite a lot of intolerance and persecution under the Hapsburgs, though it can be argued that it was not then "The Netherlands." Persecution did not occur as The Netherlands, but certainly a degree of intolerance was practiced, with non-Calvanists or Jews (Jews could and did openly worship and participate in government) functionally barred from government office and Lutheran and other non-Calvinist churches required to practice their faith in private and in churches that conformed to Calvinist decorative standards.

I am less certain about the "willingness" to support the Holacaust. I wonder how much was willing versus how much was "unwilling to pay the cost of overt opposition." Neither position, of course, is morally perfect, but the latter seems a touch less like active persecution.

For every article I read about ww2, I get more and more convinced that "unwilling to pay the cost of overt opposition." is just an excuse people made after ze germans lost.

I believe the truth is simply that nobody cared about the jews. Not in the Neds, Not in Scandinavia, certainly not in France.

After all, we natives(in several countries) were so enthusiastic about rounding up the jews that the germans had to ask us to calm down, since they feared it would cause social unrest and undermine their war effort. Quisling, for example, was deposed and replaced by Terboven solely because he was too pro-nazi.

[Idaho]

Baron Hailsham:
the role of Conservatism is not to oppose all change but to resist and balance the volatility of current political fads and ideology, and to defend a middle position that enshrines a slowly-changing organic humane traditionalism.
I thought it was to kick out the darkies and encourage poor people to enter domestic service?

[Strike For The South]

I thought it was to kick out the darkies and encourage poor people to enter domestic service?

But life has killed the dream

[ICantSpellDawg]

What? That catholics were opressed?

Opression is a relative term, I suppose. Catholics weren´t allowed to openly practice or endorse their own religion, and I imagine that would have been a good enough reason for some to emigrate to, say, the USA.

There was no functional hiearchy for the catholic church until the second half of the 19th century, when the last restrictions were lifted and the Pope decided to rebuild the church organisation in the Netherlands. This caused widespread unrest in the protestant parts of the lands, and our king showed his support for the unrest by saying he understood where they were coming from and that he wasn´t a fan of the papists either. This prompted our government (led by Thorbecke) to resign, and this in turn led to the tradition that the king/queen doesn´t open his mouth without consulting the PM.

And now we are the plurality in the Netherlands, as large as all other religions and denominations combined. Ain't that a rub? There is still work to be done on the irreligious.

[Fragony]

que?

[Kralizec]

And now we are the plurality in the Netherlands, as large as all other religions and denominations combined. Ain't that a rub? There is still work to be done on the irreligious.

Meh, the majority nowadays is atheist or agnostic. Besides, a significant part of our catholics is of the lapsed kind which has embraced Babylon.

[Kival]

Meh, the majority nowadays is atheist or agnostic. Besides, a significant part of our catholics is of the lapsed kind which has embraced Babylon.

Yo, the netherlands have 50 % people without a denomination. I wouldn't go so far to call them all atheits or agnostics, though. Most of the people without a denomination came from protestant families, that's why there are now more catholics than protestants now. Quite some protestants are also evangelical nowadays.