Iraq War 10th Anniversary: A Decade of Non-stop Winning!

[Lemur]

So, we passed the 10-year mark this weekend. Any Orgah thoughts on the subject?

New cost estimate tags our Democracy Extension at $6 trillion (http://wonkette.com/506696/iraq-war-totally-worth-its-new-six-trillion-dollar-price-tag). The butcher's bill is a subject of some dispute (http://costsofwar.org/sites/all/themes/costsofwar/images/Direct-War-Deaths.pdf) (pdf warning), since we have deliberately not tracked or tallied enemy or civilian deaths.

Lots of interesting mea culpas (http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/03/18/the-speechwriter-inside-the-bush-administration-during-the-iraq-war.html) and I told you sos (http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112673/iraq-war-10-year-anniversary-what-it-was-oppose-it-2003#) being published last week.

Majority of Americans now see the 2nd Iraq war as a mistake (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/288651-poll-on-10th-anniversary-most-see-iraq-war-as-mistake-).

Lessons learned?

https://i.imgur.com/qIAIwFJ.jpg

[gaelic cowboy]

Hmm I suppose there easy started

[Idaho]

My opinion remains the same as 10 years ago. I'll founded, ill thought out and badly executed. A dreadful, and murderous catastrophe that could have been easily avoided by not focusing on what could be gained by corporations.

[drone]

Why do you hate freedom?

[Major Robert Dump]

Negligence and incompetence on a criminal level. Secret evidenc start a pre emptive war.

I would spit on donald rumsfield were I ever to meet him.

For the last 30 years we got to hear about carters catastrophic rescue attempt to emphasize democrats weak foriegn policy astuteness....

Let's see how often we get reminded of this war.


Also, I told you so.

[Lemur]

For the last 30 years we got to hear about carters catastrophic rescue attempt to emphasize democrats weak foriegn policy astuteness....

Let's see how often we get reminded of this war.
Oh, I think there is absolutely no question that GWB and his Iraqi adventure will have much longer-lasting and more resonant consequences than anything from Jimmy Carter.

But it's going to take some time to understand what all of those repercussions will be, not to mention the second- and third-order effects.

Meanwhile:

https://i.imgur.com/nJo4m9z.jpg

[HoreTore]

Easily the biggest mistake of this millennium.

While I don't think it'll have that status until the year 3000, I do believe it'll take quite some time before it's surpassed.

[HoreTore]

The first Gulf war was justified.

You mean Saddam was well within his rights to attack Iran?

:clown:

[HopAlongBunny]

I actually thought Saddam was sponsored to attack Iran. The trouble only came when it was clear he could not win.

A huge military with nothing to do...that becomes a problem; especially when demobilization is not really an option. Like our games, soldiers are only an asset if they are gaining something to pay for their maintenance. Idle soldiers are a dead resource and demobilized soldiers are a danger.

[gaelic cowboy]

if ye ask me the period of 9-11 the War on Terror and Iraq 2.0 will be forgotten a lot quicker than people think a bit like the Boer War or summit

[Lemur]

the period of 9-11 the War on Terror and Iraq 2.0 will be forgotten
I kinda doubt it. We Americans prefer looking forward to looking back, but we're not complete and total idiots. And there are clearly lessons to be learned from our Iraqi excursion. Six trillion lessons, if nothing else.


a bit like the Boer War or summit
We caught them and we shot them by rule three-oh-three.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaAQsxAQYHg

[HoreTore]

I actually thought Saddam was sponsored to attack Iran. The trouble only came when it was clear he could not win.

A huge military with nothing to do...that becomes a problem; especially when demobilization is not really an option. Like our games, soldiers are only an asset if they are gaining something to pay for their maintenance. Idle soldiers are a dead resource and demobilized soldiers are a danger.

He was sponsored insofar as he got both moral and arms support from several countries, including the US and some other western states(was it France?). To say that was the reason for the war, however, is wrong. Saddam was an expansive nationalist and a socialist. He believed in Arab supremacism and secularism; Iran opposed all of that. Iran and Iraq were as ideologically different in 1980 as Hitler and Stalin was in 1941, war was inevitable.

[HopAlongBunny]

Yes, but it was not until he became a failed asset that there was any problem with Saddam's "quirks". When the machine everyone had helped him build was turned from Iran to "softer" targets; to use it usefully in Saddam's eyes; then it became a problem.

Saddam was a bastard, no question; but as long as he was busy exterminating himself against Iran, he was "our" bastard.

This isn't so much the failure of the US Iraq War, as the failure of US policy in the region; sorry for derailing.

[Brenus]

“Let's see how often we get reminded of this war.”: No worries, it won’t be often. Righties are good at that. They made the worst mistakes and, then blame the left for the consequences.:yes:

[Greyblades]

if ye ask me the period of 9-11 the War on Terror and Iraq 2.0 will be forgotten a lot quicker than people think a bit like the Boer War or summit

Like the first British-Afghan war...

...And the second British-Afghan war...

...And the Russian-Afghan war...

http://assets.amuniversal.com/8b0dd1964ded102dbf94001438c0f03b

Why did we think they would do well again?

[gaelic cowboy]

I kinda doubt it. We Americans prefer looking forward to looking back, but we're not complete and total idiots. And there are clearly lessons to be learned from our Iraqi excursion. Six trillion lessons, if nothing else.

I meant more like how in the grand scheme it wont seem so important one day


any UK or Irish orgahs might turn on BBC 1 as there is summit about the faked WMD intelligence

Panorama: The Spies Who Fooled The World (http://primetime.unrealitytv.co.uk/panorama-the-spies-who-fooled-the-world/)

Iraq: The spies who fooled the world (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21786506)

might be interesting

[Strike For The South]

I was 12 when this war started.

Every night I thank my stars that the terrorists are being killed in Iraq rather than over here.

I would insert pictures of dead innocents at this point but its become such a self indulgent, masturbatory exercise in smugness, even for me.

I wouldn't piss on Rummsfeld if we was on fire.

[Sarmatian]

Majority of Americans now see the 2nd Iraq war as a mistake (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/288651-poll-on-10th-anniversary-most-see-iraq-war-as-mistake-).

Lessons learned?


Irrelevant, since the majority of Americans don't make those decisions.

[Idaho]

The spies who fooled the world?! WTF... no one was fooled at the time. Two million of us marched through London declaring the war plan was complete BS.

[gaelic cowboy]

The spies who fooled the world?! WTF... no one was fooled at the time. Two million of us marched through London declaring the war plan was complete BS.

indeed I wondered at that myself

[Montmorency]

Two million of us marched through London declaring the war plan was complete BS.

Why do you hate freedom?

Indeed, I wondered at that myself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a7EYBTLTtI

:sneaky:

[Papewaio]

Title: War in Iraq.
Subtitle: Do it yourself Quagmire

WMD, nope.
Mission complete, nope.
People would want democracy installed at gunpoint, nope.

$6 Trillion split between the military industrial complex and local strongmen, yeap.

Tastes like win to me.

[Idaho]

Interesting that the org seems to be united in opposition to the war now. Whereas back then there were a few voices in opposition and the vast majority of American posters where fully behind Bush.

Can we dig up the old thread?

[HoreTore]

Interesting that the org seems to be united in opposition to the war now. Whereas back then there were a few voices in opposition and the vast majority of American posters where fully behind Bush.

Can we dig up the old thread?

As commanded!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?47757-How-was-the-Iraq-War-illegal

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?77907-Would-you-%28US-residents%29-prefer-Universal-Health-Care-or-the-War-on-Iraq

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?47282-US-soldier-cleared-in-shooting-of-unarmed-wounded-motionless-insurgent

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?57502-Iraqi-PM-Iraq-abuse-as-bad-now-as-under-Saddam

That's a few with some discussion on it, let the witch hunt begin!!!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As commanded!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?47757-How-was-the-Iraq-War-illegal

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?77907-Would-you-%28US-residents%29-prefer-Universal-Health-Care-or-the-War-on-Iraq

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?47282-US-soldier-cleared-in-shooting-of-unarmed-wounded-motionless-insurgent

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?57502-Iraqi-PM-Iraq-abuse-as-bad-now-as-under-Saddam

That's a few with some discussion on it, let the witch hunt begin!!!

Scanned the first thread for a bit. An active Pindar, Prole' in her finest fettle, Redleg....fond memories of arguments past. Now, If I could only see a recent post or two from Gawain and if Tribesman had managed to avoid the boot....

[Idaho]

Can someone skim through and find my, no doubt, utterly brilliant and frighteningly prophetic posts from that time?

[Ronin]

The Iraq war, the only thing more winning than Charlie Sheen

[gaelic cowboy]

Was driving listening to radio an the DJ was talking about Iraq an how everyone lost there heads back then over the Dixie Chicks.

Cheese eating surrender monkeys, New Europe/Old Europe, the Coalition of the Willing Billing, something about "You forgot Poland" there was a lot of hysteria going about.

Not America's finest hour domestically never mind in the war itself

[Major Robert Dump]

Awesome threads...

I just voted in the poll on healthcare....

[Major Robert Dump]

I have only gotten backwards to page 260, so if someone wants to pick up the torch and continue from 260 knock yourself out.... most of these are from summer 2005.... not sure if it stays this way, and I don't want it to become a "pick on poster X" fest, but it looks like the overwhelming majority of the discussion panels were the same in every thread.... I would also point out that this is before things started to get really bad in 2007...

notable insult: "Saddam Apologists"

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?47560-Abu-Graib-Prison-Scandel-Update

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?47753-Leaked-document-Paul-O-neil-and-Dick-Clarke-right-after-all-about-Bush-and-Iraq-War

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?47607-War-in-Iraq-looks-like-last-stand-for-al-Qaeda

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?48149-Iraq-what-s-going-on-here

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?49203-Freedom-fries-lawmaker-s-U-turn

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?49698-Iraq-insurgency-in-its-last-throes-or-going-strong

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?50224-Something-about-Iraq-that-I-have-not-heard-about-so-far-in-the-U-S-media

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?50998-Vietnam-and-Iraq

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?49417-Club-G-itmo

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?50931-My-Iraq-Opinion

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?51009-25-000-civilians-killed-in-Iraq-war

[Husar]

Tribesman had managed to avoid the boot....

Tribesman wanted to leave, I'm not aware that he is banned or anything like that.

[Beskar]

I have to admit, reading back, it was the case of the usual suspects who likes to bang that ol' by jingo wardrum. What is interesting for example, is how Panzer was pro-Iraq but Anti-Libya, even though Libya received lots of international and domestic support against some one killing innocent civilians versus obvious boogus at the time 'intelligence documents' proven time and time again to be false.

[Idaho]

I have to admit, reading back, it was the case of the usual suspects who likes to bang that ol' by jingo wardrum. What is interesting for example, is how Panzer was pro-Iraq but Anti-Libya, even though Libya received lots of international and domestic support against some one killing innocent civilians versus obvious boogus at the time 'intelligence documents' proven time and time again to be false.

Right-wingers in makes-no-effing-sense shocker.

[Lemur]

A Naval Academy prof tries to draw up a "lessons learned" essay (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/20/opinion/the-silver-linings-of-iraq.html). Dunno about most of it, but this resonates: "Great powers rarely make national decisions that explode so quickly and completely in their face."

[HoreTore]

Dunno about most of it, but this resonates: "Great powers rarely make national decisions that explode so quickly and completely in their face."

Really?

Isn't the kind of monstrous error the US did in Iraq quite typical of great powers?

[Greyblades]

Only when it involves afghanistan.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I was 12 when this war started.

How the hell are you that young? Now I am moping all day because I feel intellectually inferior.

[Montmorency]

Huh? Didn't he announce last year, all over the board, that he had just graduated college?

Keep vigilance, ACIN.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Huh? Didn't he announce last year, all over the board, that he had just graduated college?

Keep vigilance, ACIN.

He probably did, but sadly my knowledge of fellow Org members has been slowly slipping away from me the past year.

Oddly, I still remember clearly that Panzer is a sexy man in RL.

[Greyblades]

After you see the 7.5 cm KwK 40, you never forget.

:quiet:

[HopAlongBunny]

So far we have just talked about money and lives; lost plenty of each. What about the reputations of the people who were not "on board" with Bush? What about the the rights destroyed in order to protect them?

[PanzerJaeger]

I have to admit, reading back, it was the case of the usual suspects who likes to bang that ol' by jingo wardrum. What is interesting for example, is how Panzer was pro-Iraq but Anti-Libya, even though Libya received lots of international and domestic support against some one killing innocent civilians versus obvious boogus at the time 'intelligence documents' proven time and time again to be false.

I made it clear in the discussions over Libya that my opinion was largely drawn from lessons learned in Iraq; namely, that Middle Eastern peoples cannot be relied on to act in rational self interest, thus rendering Western intervention on their behalf counterproductive. Indeed, while it is clear now that America stumbled in Iraq, the real losers were the Iraqis themselves, who squandered what may have been their only chance at establishing a true liberal democracy in a generation through sectarian civil war.

As for who was right and who was wrong ten years ago, I stand by my support for the intervention. It was a sound decision based on the information available at the time. It was one of those rare occasions in which the geopolitical interests of a major power aligned with the best interests of a suffering people - unlike Tibet, Sudan, Syria, et cetera, where humanitarian concerns alone cannot justify the expenditure of Western resources. A successful outcome would have yielded a stronger American position in the Middle East and a better environment for the Iraqis themselves.

The true failure in Iraq was not political but military, although you'll never hear that in today's culture of hero worship. Competence in command at the higher levels was abysmal for years, which is particularly stunning given the American investment in military spending and the nation's prior experience in Vietnam. Iraq was a sound decision undone by a military that over promised and under delivered.

[Major Robert Dump]

I echo the failure of the military leadership, starting with the Commander in Chief and the Secretary of Defense, although the failure was certainly political and intelligence as well, otherwise where did all the BS about the Iraqis welcoming us and mission accomplished come from?

To think that we could fight a guerilla war insurgency in soft shell Humvees. Even police departments get armor. I always heard how Rumsfield was a genius....

The overwhelming majority of the senior leadership (as in the 99 percentile) were people who had served for 15-20 years of peace time, thought their feces did not stink, and established ROE and SOP that was idiotic and worked to fuel the insurgency. They were YES men, YES YES YES YES, and YES men do not win wars. To take 19 year old grunts and try to make them police officers, detectives, interrogators and civil affairs officers was foolish to all end of the earth.

There is a serious issue with incoming units coming into theater (in both theaters) that do not listen to the outgoing unit they are replacing, they cherry pick which parts of their training to use/not use, and you essentially have everything reset to almost zero every time a new brigade comes into a province because no one listens, they all have their own cowboy idea of how they are going to kick ass and take names. The different branches don't listen, and I must say National Guard are some of the worst in both listening and getting listened to. It is monumental waste of resources

[Major Robert Dump]

Here we go some more, made it backwards to page 230, more tomorrow.... quite busy we were in the BR regarding Iraq.... oh the name calling, my personal favorite is accusing "the left" of wanting it to be another Vietnam, yet the right liked to parrot that "if we lose the war, its because of lack of popular support" which kind of sounds like they want it to be Vietnam and goes by the faulty assumption that soldiers in harms way give two craps about what people back home are saying and doing (HINT: we don't) Also funny is criticism of Cindy Sheehan for politicizing her sons death while the critics turned around and politicized the troops by using them as shields against criticism. Yum


this goes to fall 2005. Iraq talk slowed just a tad as we had Katrina to deal with in the BR and all of its political baggage.


https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?51357-Insurgents-joining-Iraqi-police

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?51215-Anti-military-operations <---- exciting thread, very lively

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?50349-Good-Morning-Iraq <---- "good news" thread

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?51754-War-on-Terror-is-now-called-Rumsfield

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?52354-Well-Wheres-the-Oil

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?52999-The-War-Comes-Home

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?52878-Iraq-War-Good-or-Bad-! <-----this thread, asking good or bad, is filled full of naievette, as if the war will be over soon. Little did we know that protesters back home would lose us the war!!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?53031-Saddam-s-dirty-bomb

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?52901-Do-you-really-give-a-rats-ass-about-Cindy-Sheehan

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?53125-Madman-Theory-and-Bush

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?53361-Cindy-is-now-HAPPY-that-Bush-didn-t-meet-with-her!!!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?53382-Should-Iraq-be-split-up

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?54570-Sheehan-finally-manages-to-grab-a-headline-again

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?55158-Bush-claims-God-told-him-to-invade-Iraq-Afghanistan-BBC

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?55087-Accountability-Bush-style

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?55580-Bush-has-a-staged-chat-with-troops

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?56203-Good-news-from-iraq!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?56297-Alleged-links-between-Iraq-and-Al-Qaeda-unravelling

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?56684-Iraq-battle-stress-worse-than-WWII

[Major Robert Dump]

Off Topic, but I figured I would put it here anyway

In Del Royos "I enlisted" thread, Redleg and Divinus get into a penis measuring contest and hilarity ensues. Anyway, I see Del Royo has not been active since 2008 and was wondering if anyone knew whatever happened to him??

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?55165-Well-I-m-in-the-Army-Now/page2

[The Lurker Below]

My Iraq featured Saudi Arabia, a different Bush, and some crazy shield. I got too interested in my kids to care this last round. But this reminded me of some good humor:


I must say National Guard are some of the worst in both listening and getting listened to

What's the difference between the National Guard and the Boy Scouts?
even more fun when around the right people -
How do you knock a Marine out?

[HopAlongBunny]

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/03/201332610025946947.html

[Strike For The South]

I made it clear in the discussions over Libya that my opinion was largely drawn from lessons learned in Iraq; namely, that Middle Eastern peoples cannot be relied on to act in rational self interest, thus rendering Western intervention on their behalf counterproductive. Indeed, while it is clear now that America stumbled in Iraq, the real losers were the Iraqis themselves, who squandered what may have been their only chance at establishing a true liberal democracy in a generation through sectarian civil war.

As for who was right and who was wrong ten years ago, I stand by my support for the intervention. It was a sound decision based on the information available at the time. It was one of those rare occasions in which the geopolitical interests of a major power aligned with the best interests of a suffering people - unlike Tibet, Sudan, Syria, et cetera, where humanitarian concerns alone cannot justify the expenditure of Western resources. A successful outcome would have yielded a stronger American position in the Middle East and a better environment for the Iraqis themselves.

The true failure in Iraq was not political but military, although you'll never hear that in today's culture of hero worship. Competence in command at the higher levels was abysmal for years, which is particularly stunning given the American investment in military spending and the nation's prior experience in Vietnam. Iraq was a sound decision undone by a military that over promised and under delivered.

Whose rational self interest? Ours or theirs?

Also I'm buying a bird hunting gun for my pops need your advice

[Noncommunist]

I was 12 when this war started.

Every night I thank my stars that the terrorists are being killed in Iraq rather than over here.

I would insert pictures of dead innocents at this point but its become such a self indulgent, masturbatory exercise in smugness, even for me.

I wouldn't piss on Rummsfeld if we was on fire.

I was 12 as well. I remember cheering for it at the time though the day after the invasion started, I remember feeling like it wasn't going to go well. That said, I still kept defending it for years online.

[The Lurker Below]

What's the difference between the National Guard and the Boy Scouts?

Adult leadership

How do you knock a Marine out?

Throw sand on the wall and say "hit the beach, jarhead"

I both laughed and died a little on the inside with "Remind him he works for the Navy."

[Furunculus]

Right-wingers in makes-no-effing-sense shocker.

lets not generalise too much, please.

[Lemur]

Iraqi politician writes a short, damning review (http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/04/the-road-to-failure-in-iraq/) of the USA involvement in his nation. I don't see anything we could argue, except that maybe "secular groups" didn't have the base of support that they thought they had.

The most tangible result of American involvement in Iraq has been the consolidation of Iran’s influence and power in the country. The United States had the means to prevent this but lacked the will and determination.

[Major Robert Dump]

You are being too hard on W and Cheney. Such an opinion ignores the 5000 year old saying "You cain't prevent no Iran". Iran was inevitable.

[Strike For The South]

Hey guys, I FEEL safer

I FEEL like we done did good

[Vladimir]

Iraqi politician writes a short, damning review (http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/04/the-road-to-failure-in-iraq/) of the USA involvement in his nation. I don't see anything we could argue, except that maybe "secular groups" didn't have the base of support that they thought they had.

The most tangible result of American involvement in Iraq has been the consolidation of Iran’s influence and power in the country. The United States had the means to prevent this but lacked the will and determination.

Not that I disagree, too much, with our lack of will and determination but I would like to know how much better the country would be with one of Saddam's sons in charge. With the level of rot under his leadership I doubt they would have been able to resist Iranian influence.

[Lemur]

I doubt they would have been able to resist Iranian influence.
It's unknowable. But I seem to recall they were pretty good at bloodying each other (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War) on their own terms.

[Greyblades]

If only they could be so crafty in thier diplomacy.

[Lemur]

According to Paul Wolfowitz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wolfowitz), one of the architects of our decade-long Iraqi adventure, it's too soon to say anything (http://www.aei.org/article/foreign-and-defense-policy/regional/middle-east-and-north-africa/iraq-its-too-soon-to-tell/) at all. In fact, it may always be too soon. Opening sentence: "It may be a long time before we really know the outcome of the Iraq war."

Uh ... okay.

Also, according to Wolfowitz, we're are abandoning freedom and God by not getting hip-deep in Syria RIGHT NOW.

Lesson learned: zero.

[Beskar]

Also, according to Wolfowitz, we're are abandoning freedom and God by not getting hip-deep in Syria RIGHT NOW.

Lesson learned: zero.

Syria is more like an Libya than a Iraq. Especially as Iraq and Afghanistan were merely imposing puppet governments opposed to simply letting the people do with it as they will.