Hilda buys the farm.

[Husar]

Worst case is usually true in my experience, unfortunately.

Stop the negativism, if they searched your home every two days because some crime happened somewhere near where you live and they stored all your fingerprints, retinas, DNA and whatnot indefinitely so that they could always easily do something whenever a crime happens, you'd probably voice concerns about your privacy. If you want to retain some privacy, you have to accept the other side of the coin as well.

[Greyblades]

Stop the negativism, if they searched your home every two days because some crime happened somewhere near where you live and they stored all your fingerprints, retinas, DNA and whatnot indefinitely so that they could always easily do something whenever a crime happens, you'd probably voice concerns about your privacy. If you want to retain some privacy, you have to accept the other side of the coin as well. What are you talking about? What does privacy have to do with the low conviction rates for rape?

[Husar]

What are you talking about? What does privacy have to do with the low conviction rates for rape?

What are you talking about? How often have you been raped and gone to the police for help?
You said "in my experience" so I took that to mean that you have personally been turned down by the police a few times, not specifically related to rape.

Having the DNA of every single citizen in a databank could often help in rape cases. The guy would just have to lose a hair or not use a condom... Unless you're saying the police are not interested in investigating such cases in the first place and you have several personal experiences of that kind, which would be a bit weird unless you're a street worker or so. :inquisitive:

[Greyblades]

Personally? No. Had someone close to me? Yes. Multiple times. Each time we knew who it was but could not do anything because none of the other victims would come forward. You dont get much out of he said she said. All I meant to say that the "nothing we can do" option is taken quite often. I would appreciate it if you would not project your asinine crap on me, I could not give a damn about your percieved Orwellian nightmare.

[Fragony]

Personally? No. Had someone close to me? Yes. Multiple times. Each time we knew who it was but could not do anything because none of the other victims would come forward. You dont get much out of he said she said. All I meant to say that the "nothing we can do" option is taken quite often. I would appreciate it if you would not project your asinine crap on me, I could not give a damn about your percieved Orwellian nightmare.

If you know who it was what's holding you back from doing things yourself. The guy who sexually abused a good friend of mine now knows what his teeth taste like. That's how you deal with things, niceties are just for nice people. Kick his ass and properly make him understand that it will be worse next time.

[Husar]

Personally? No. Had someone close to me? Yes. Multiple times. Each time we knew who it was but could not do anything because none of the other victims would come forward. You dont get much out of he said she said. All I meant to say that the "nothing we can do" option is taken quite often.
Yes, sadly. It's also sad that it happens so often around you.
You say yourself that the problem is that victims do not come forward, how is that the fault of the police?
Or was that not what you were saying?


I would appreciate it if you would not project your asinine crap on me, I could not give a damn about your percieved Orwellian nightmare.
??? The what? I don't understand and don't have any nightmares of this kind. No idea what you're projecting on me now.

[LittleGrizzly]

InsaneApache I have added you to my ignore list and I would appreciate it if you could do the same for me.

[Fragony]

One of these days? Lighten up man, get yourself a smoke and think of cute kittens and fluffy bunnies

[Beskar]

But isn't the root of ideology a goal?
I think every ideology has a goal and in many cases the goals overlap but there is no consensus on how to get there and both/all sides will bring up relatively valid arguments depending on the problem.
I wouldn't be so sure that the party can easily find the one solution to all these problems without tearing itself apart in the discussions preceding that.
Surely a new approach or a new mix of ideas wouldn't hurt though.

And Rhyfelwyr, at least you're funny if you want to be, so don't be so hard on yourself. :yes:

It is, in many ways. But the thing is, many ideologies want the right things at the wrong times/situation. You will have the cut welfare party in the middle of a depression, emptying the economy even more with the situation making it worse. This was after following the increase spending party who borrowed money during an economic boom (morons). Both parties got it wrong in the situations because their economic policy favours the other situation.

My ideal party would be cutting spending during an economic boom and increase spending in a bust from all the saved up rainy day money. It would run on a governmental debt-free system, perhaps giving international loans to other countries (like China does) for increased income.

[Kralizec]

I've never used the ignore list, even though a few people throughout the years gave me ample reason to do so. It's just as easy to ignore these posts by not reading them, if you predict that it will be the same old. And it's a lot less draconian.


As far as I can tell though she asked the party to deal with it and he was found innocent by a bunch of his friends and the wider party seemed fairly split on the issue...

If this was a fist-fight, a minor assault or something like that I could have understood (even if I did not agree). Since we're talking about a far more serious crime the party should have encouraged the woman to take it to the police.

From the Independent article: with one member stating that the party had “no faith in the bourgeois court system to deliver justice”.

This is a typical example of the mindset of these far-left ideologues. Their party has all the answers and they don't even view opposing political views as legitimate. A committee from their higher ranks is better able to dispense justice then the system which 99,9% of the British rely on. That somebody raped a woman is awful of course, but it's the way they handled it that shows their real colours.

[InsaneApache]

InsaneApache I have added you to my ignore list and I would appreciate it if you could do the same for me.

Like I said, I believe in people holding opposite views to me and value freedom of speech. In that spirit, I decline your offer.


Resist the dark side you must, your belief the right one is.

Well said.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

One of these days? Lighten up man, get yourself a smoke and think of cute kittens and fluffy bunnies

Cute Kittens and Fluffy Bunnies is, I believe, the name of Crazed Rabbit's website wherein he is plotting the overthrow of humanity. Or I might be mistaken.

[Greyblades]

This is a typical example of the mindset of these far-left ideologues. Their party has all the answers and they don't even view opposing political views as legitimate. A committee from their higher ranks is better able to dispense justice then the system which 99,9% of the British rely on. That somebody raped a woman is awful of course, but it's the way they handled it that shows their real colours.
That's hardly a mindset exclusive to the far left, actually I think it is universal for most hard line parties.

[Fragony]

That's hardly a mindset exclusive to the far left, actually I think it is universal for most hard line parties.

It's universal in heavily closed organisations, it's not instrumantal to the far left, that's true

[InsaneApache]

That's hardly a mindset exclusive to the far left, actually I think it is universal for most hard line parties.

Like I always said: Communists and fascists, two cheeks of the same arse.

[InsaneApache]

Well let me see.

Authoritarian.

Controlling.

Subvert the individual to the state.

Oppressive.

Undemocratic.

et al....

Need I go on?

[Rhyfelwyr]

That's only half-right. Fascism is about class systems and the relationship between corporations and the state as well, and in those regards it is the opposite of Communism. I think that's even been explained earlier in the thread, in great detail. You're purposefully taking a narrow view. :shrug:

I think he's saying that ideological gloss aside, they end up resulting in the same kind of regime.

To be fair, I think he is right in saying that. The corporatism you mentioned means the state acting as a mediator between the different social classes and their representatives (eg Trade Unions and Corporate Lobbies) - that describes Britain in the 1970's, it does not describe Nazi Germany, which really functioned in much the same way as the Soviet Union in that regard - state ownership or at least effective control/directing of the means of production.

[InsaneApache]

I think he's saying that ideological gloss aside, they end up resulting in the same kind of regime.

:2thumbsup:


That's only half-right.

Oh I didn't realise it was a quiz!

So what is the answer?

[Ironside]

I think he's saying that ideological gloss aside, they end up resulting in the same kind of regime.

To be fair, I think he is right in saying that. The corporatism you mentioned means the state acting as a mediator between the different social classes and their representatives (eg Trade Unions and Corporate Lobbies) - that describes Britain in the 1970's, it does not describe Nazi Germany, which really functioned in much the same way as the Soviet Union in that regard - state ownership or at least effective control/directing of the means of production.

Those details are strong enough to literally be a matter of life and death, so while they do have some similarities and are often quite nasty, calling them the same is negligent.
How to put it? The colour of extremism is the same, but the way it's reached leaves a large print.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Those details are strong enough to literally be a matter of life and death, so while they do have some similarities and are often quite nasty, calling them the same is negligent.
How to put it? The colour of extremism is the same, but the way it's reached leaves a large print.

But I said that in reality Nazi Germany wasn't corporatist - it used state control for major industries just like the Soviets.

[Kralizec]

Even that qualifies as corporatism. IIRC political science makes a distinction between cooperative and coercive corporatism.

[Ironside]

But I said that in reality Nazi Germany wasn't corporatist - it used state control for major industries just like the Soviets.

Corporatism is a bit more than tripartism, but it's not having a good strict definition, making it a bit vague.

But sufficient to say, something like Lex Krupp would cause several system errors in Soviet.

In Nazi Germany, ally with the state and make a huge profit, but they'll have significant control of your production.
In Soviet union, company what company? It's state property now and hope that you were popular among the workers, since it's those who can save your butt.
Slight difference.

[Beskar]

If you want to know some Nazi-Corporatism facts.

Coca-Cola designed Fanta as the official drink for Nazi Germany.
Hitler named/gave the idea of the Volkwagen Beetle
IG Faben produced the biggest profit working for the Nazi's. Also invented the Aspirin. (Jewish guy did it) but they refused to credit the discovery to him. Now known as Bayer.
Ford - was producing vehicles for the Allies and the Nazi's.
IBM created the machines for accounting and processing, including the ones at the concentration camps.
Hugo Boss designed the Nazi uniforms.
Kodak profited from the cheap labour of the concentration camps.

Corporatism under Nazi Germany was completely different to the USSR. Hilter enlisted the help of big business and in return, they got big profits.

[drone]

Hitler named/gave the idea of the Volkwagen Beetle

If I remember correctly, the Volkwagen thing was a pyramid scheme. There was a pre-payment mechanism set up for buyers, but no one ever actually got a car before the war started and production turned military. The Nazis were pretty good at stealing people's money to finance the war. :yes:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

If I remember correctly, the Volkwagen thing was a pyramid scheme. There was a pre-payment mechanism set up for buyers, but no one ever actually got a car before the war started and production turned military. The Nazis were pretty good at stealing people's money to finance the war. :yes:

Like war bonds with all your neighbors looking at you cross-eyed if you didn't sign up for a few was any less creative? Not outright theft, I grant....

[Rhyfelwyr]

Corporatism is a bit more than tripartism, but it's not having a good strict definition, making it a bit vague.

But sufficient to say, something like Lex Krupp would cause several system errors in Soviet.

In Nazi Germany, ally with the state and make a huge profit, but they'll have significant control of your production.
In Soviet union, company what company? It's state property now and hope that you were popular among the workers, since it's those who can save your butt.
Slight difference.

Nuance has its place, but like I said:


state ownership or at least effective control/directing of the means of production.

This is only corporatism in so far as it was once mislabelled as such. It is not the most common understanding of it, or the from in which fascists advocate it, which is the tripartist from as you called it.