View Full Version : Boston Marathon bombed
HoreTore
04-15-2013, 20:23
TV2(Norway) reported 12 injured. BBC reports (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22160691) injured, but no figures. No reports of dead.
What's up? Terror attack?
Kadagar_AV
04-15-2013, 20:32
Comment Removed.
Summary: Celebrating the attack
Not to flog the obvious, but anytime civilians are blown up anywhere, it's not such a good day.
Unfortunately, your troll logic in this instance is indistinguishable from Joe terrorist freedom-fighter. "NOW THE IMPERIALIST PIG-DOGS SHALL UNDERSTAND THE HUMILIATION THEY HAVE HEAPED ON _____________ FOR SO MANY YEARS!"
Etcetera, etcetera.
HoreTore
04-15-2013, 20:43
That does not deserve a response.
Anyway: apparently the bomb went off 3 hours after the winner finished, which seems to imply that there wasn't that many people around. Also, the explosions went off at a hotel, not in the stands, which were on the other side of the road.
That does not seem to imply the usual suspects(Al-Q). Is this the case of a lone bomber?
Kadagar_AV
04-15-2013, 20:49
Not to flog the obvious, but anytime civilians are blown up anywhere, it's not such a good day.
Unfortunately, your troll logic in this instance is indistinguishable from Joe terrorist freedom-fighter. "NOW THE IMPERIALIST PIG-DOGS SHALL UNDERSTAND THE HUMILIATION THEY HAVE HEAPED ON _____________ FOR SO MANY YEARS!"
Etcetera, etcetera.
Remind me again, if You want to attack the POWER in a democracy, where do You hit?
The voters?
Frankly said, the USA has got less bombings than they voted for.
No personal attacks please.
ICantSpellDawg
04-15-2013, 21:07
Oh stop, a lot of people agree with Kad, even though the sentiment is offensive. He's right, in a way, bombs are a scary thing and it is a wonder that they don't go off in metropolitan areas more often. I hope not too many people were hurt by this, but I've stopped getting together with massive amounts of people many years ago because in no way is it a good idea or pleasant
Kadagar_AV
04-15-2013, 21:11
edited out personal attack
... And this worthless human being and disgrace to the entire species acknowledge the fact You think so.
However, how many other ways can You think of to make the average USAnian spend some time watching actual political news?
... And this worthless human being and disgrace to the entire species acknowledge the fact You think so.However, how many other ways can You think of to make the average USAnian spend some time watching actual political news?Hundreds. You express active pleasure with the murder of civilians. You are truly :daisy: in the head.
has it even been confirmed that it was a bomb?
the explosion was in a 5 star hotel next to the route...for all we know it was some foie gras past it's expiration date.
Kadagar's comment doesn't really warrant a response from civilised human beings.
HoreTore
04-15-2013, 21:20
has it even been confirmed that it was a bomb?
No.
2 are confirmed dead, and the number of injured is 22, according to the BBC.
Papewaio
04-15-2013, 21:23
I've always wished I had the ability to run a marathon. Boston has always been one of my top three I wish I could do.
Condolences to all the injured.
=][=
Targeting civilians for political purposes is terrorism.
Targeting suspected terrorists for political purposes is vote buying. With any bystanders collatoral damage.
There is a ragged, raw circle
by tooth blood and claw.
It's not nice, nor fair, nor just. Neither is collateral damage.
This is the realpolitik anti-circle of life.
=][=
Btw normal suspects in the US are crazed militia men for bombings. 80% chance it was a local. Maybe even protesting against tightening federal gun laws.
ICantSpellDawg
04-15-2013, 21:27
Btw normal suspects in the US are crazed militia men for bombings. 80% chance it was a local. Maybe even protesting against tightening federal gun laws.
But 12 dead and no guns used can't hurt. Try to blame all of the worlds ills on law abiding gun owners. You're going to lose that war
All of the stabbings in the world won't create the body count that bombs will. A simple bomb can do this to a group of people and bombs are not difficult to make. Ban guns and crazy people will use whatever means they have to kill people. I'd rather a crazy person have a gun than a bomb because then we at least have hope of defending ourselves
Kadagar_AV
04-15-2013, 21:29
I think I will withdraw myself from discussion on this topic - on this "international" forum.
It's only cool when it's the people You deem as bad guys being hit on their soil, aight?
EDIT: If 3ish US-people dead will lead to possibly 300 tons LESS explosive materials being dropped on populated areas in third world countries, I am all for it.
Why?
Because I value every human life, and right now, the US is on a very, very, VERY big karma minus.
johnhughthom
04-15-2013, 21:29
Is it shameful that a small part of me is thinking "There you go Boston, that's what terrorism is, not some misty eyed dreams of the 'oul sod', where heroic freedom fighters kill innocent civilians with the millions you donated over the years."?
Of course it's shameful, but having lived through terrorism I find America's 'War on Terror when it suits US' hard to swallow.
Rhyfelwyr
04-15-2013, 21:29
That's horrible footage to watch. Hope the death toll doesn't rise, and that this will prove to be some sort of tragic accident.
johnhughthom
04-15-2013, 21:34
Two more devices found and dismantled, so it looks like it is terrorism.
Ja'chyra
04-15-2013, 21:43
RIP and condolences
HoreTore
04-15-2013, 21:56
The clueless at cluesforum (http://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1603) has already found out that this never happened.
Back in the real world, the police have told people to avoid trash cans, so the bombs were apparently placed there. This rules out suicide bombings, which reinforces the lone bomber over the islamist terrorist. Unabomber II?
The death count is reported as "rising". RIP
EDIT: And for a really far-fetched theory: April 15th is Kim Il-Sung's birthday.
johnhughthom
04-15-2013, 22:00
Bloody hell, some of those photos are pretty shocking. I find a mindset that makes someone whip out their cellphone and start snapping in that situation disgusting.
Greyblades
04-15-2013, 22:02
Hundreds. You express active pleasure with the murder of civilians. You are truly :daisy: in the head.
:daisy: has got a point, even if it is buried behind detestable schadenfreude; America, and the UK by unprotesting association, is far too complacent whith our government's carrying out of the same acts we purport to revile and detest. That it should take such horrific circumstance for attention to be drawn is another pointg I can add to my rant on the indifference of society.
Regardless, R.I.P.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
04-15-2013, 22:07
edited out personal attack
Worse that HoreTore and the other dancing on Thatcher's grave?
His basic point is sound - few Americans have died compared with the number of Afgan wedding parties bombed by US drones.
HoreTore
04-15-2013, 22:08
Another bomb went off at the JFK library.
The police has a suspect in custody, and it's a Saudi. Islamic terrorism it is, then.
http://larrybrownsports.com/everything-else/boston-marathon-bombing-suspect-custody/184027
HoreTore
04-15-2013, 22:09
HoreTore dancing on Thatcher's grave?
I will give you the opportunity to retract that accusation.
Papewaio
04-15-2013, 22:15
Another bomb went off at the JFK library.
The police has a suspect in custody, and it's a Saudi. Islamic terrorism it is, then.
http://larrybrownsports.com/everything-else/boston-marathon-bombing-suspect-custody/184027
A Saudi?
It can't be they are allies of the west an would never attack the US or UK or Aus
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
04-15-2013, 22:15
I will give you the opportunity to retract that accusation.
You compared her to Saddam Hussain.
HopAlongBunny
04-15-2013, 22:16
RIP
Bloody hell, some of those photos are pretty shocking. I find a mindset that makes someone whip out their cellphone and start snapping in that situation disgusting.
Welcome to the panopticon.
Another bomb went off at the JFK library.
The police has a suspect in custody, and it's a Saudi. Islamic terrorism it is, then.
http://larrybrownsports.com/everything-else/boston-marathon-bombing-suspect-custody/184027
the police has said in a press conference that the library thing is a fire and not a bomb and not related.
So i´ll wait to see it the 'suspect' is confirmed or not.
Greyblades
04-15-2013, 22:20
You compared her to Saddam Hussain.
About as harsh a comparison you can get without getting into the "so evil it's funny" area hitler inhabits.
Papewaio
04-15-2013, 22:23
Bloody hell, some of those photos are pretty shocking. I find a mindset that makes someone whip out their cellphone and start snapping in that situation disgusting.
Under pressure or shock people tend to revert to their most ingrained training. A soldier might whip out his gun and go to ground, a modern social media person will revert to whipping out a phone and taking photos.
Nothing surprising really. Now if they are taking selfies with that as the background... It's another matter.
HoreTore
04-15-2013, 22:23
You compared her to Saddam Hussain.
And you believe I danced when Saddam was hanged....?
You may have done so; I did not.
“Worse that HoreTore and the other dancing on Thatcher's grave?” Oh, finally… I was surprise that no one spoke about this… Like the coward I am, I didn’t want to start telling all the bad I think of her…
johnhughthom
04-15-2013, 22:26
Under pressure or shock people tend to revert to their most ingrained training. A soldier might whip out his gun and go to ground, a modern social media person will revert to whipping out a phone and taking photos.
Nothing surprising really. Now if they are taking selfies with that as the background... It's another matter.
Nonsense. I've been in that situation, admittedly not in the cellphone age, and standing taking photos is simply crass behaviour. Check friends and family are okay, see if anyone needs help. Don't take bloody photos.
Incomparable. Margaret Thatcher died of natural causes after a long and generally healthy life. She was fully responsible for her own actions.
The people who died as a result of these bombing may not have even supported the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I cannot fathom how the two events can be compared.
Post #2
USAians, democrazy
This is some next level 14 year old :daisy:. Keep on truckin'.
Montmorency
04-15-2013, 22:32
20-year-old Saudi national? Sounds like the sort of guy the alphabet-suits easily neutralize long before their plans enter deployment-phase.
Will be interesting to learn the level of the craftsmanship of the recovered bombs, as well as more bio.
It's either one of the typical schmucks who got lucky (if the backpack-bombs turn out to be amateurish, and the young man is a radicalized dual citizen somehow), or the govt let a highly trained and effective foreign national slip through their defenses.
I'd bet on the former, though SA, for its part, does not recognize multiple-citizenship...
Papewaio
04-15-2013, 22:41
JFK library fire was indoors, in a mechanical room.
So a fire in an area hardly anyone let alone the public access is not really a strong link to a series of bombs in a crowded public area.
If the young Saudi is only being associated with the fire then this is an unrelated event. My guess is that it was a mechanical failure or capacitor blowing up. The Saudi happened to be nearby and was nabbed by the keystones.
Montmorency
04-15-2013, 22:43
EDIT: If 3ish US-people dead will lead to possibly 300 tons LESS explosive materials being dropped on populated areas in third world countries, I am all for it.
Have you been watching too much anime or something? The size of the US arsenal of ordnance is not determined by the collective patriotic auras of those who number among its body politic.
Gruesome stuff, and about as classic a case of straight-up terrorism as you could ask for.
The choice of target and method suggest that this is not a homegrown extremist. A Federal building in Oklahoma, yes. The Boston Marathon, no.
Montmorency
04-15-2013, 22:59
I don't know - backpack bombs at a local event in a metropolitan area? Sounds pretty Inspired if you ask me.
Anyway, if the bombs are well-designed and this was a professionally-trained agent, well - why would an organization risk a promising young agent, sending him over to the enemy's heartland do pull small-time stuff that they've traditionally pushed on local lone-wolves?
And I just don't think it's likely that a pure Saudi just happened to be radicalized in SA and figured, 'Well, might as well travel to Boston as a tourist and pull some low-level stunt that's within my ability; even two Americans for my life is a good price, so I will submerge my pride for the sake of Allah and Incremental Goals!'
HopAlongBunny
04-15-2013, 23:08
A Saudi!? The path is clear.
Awaiting the "pre-emptive" American invasion of Saudi-Arabia; shock/awe, spectacle; this could be amazing!
Major Robert Dump
04-16-2013, 00:25
I find it increasingly difficult to care about any of this. Happens all over the world, every week, to people who didn't live nearly as well, with nothing but suffering and suck their entire lives until someone finally takes it from them in a final stroke of injustice. They don't get 24/7 news coverage, million dollar memorial ceremonies, and speeches from the POTUS.
Tragic? Of course it is. But at the end of the day, I just don't care. Not laughing about it, not saying anyone deserved it, but I really just do not care.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
04-16-2013, 00:41
And you believe I danced when Saddam was hanged....?
You may have done so; I did not.
Don't squirm, you made it clear you're glad she's dead.
Hax: How does it compare? Simply put, taking satisfaction in another's death.
Bombs start going off in our cities on the regular and we're gonna :daisy: the rest of the world up. Again. Bring it.
OK - see - this is what Kad was talking about.
You're going to **** the world up?
Fair does, but it's going to be a bit awkward when it turns out the perpetrator was a actually a Brit of Pakistani descent. I remember the aftermath of 9/11 - I have never seen so many pimply teenagers promising to kill "ragheads" etc.
I have to say, personally I was quite impressed, minimum resources, maximum impact, looks like the majority of the team got away with it. Plus placing the bombs and them not being moved... Overall, very clever and well executed. These boys are approaching IRA/Mossad levels now.
Which is not to take away from it being horrible.
One of the dead is an 8-year-old child. I wonder if that's enough to sate Kadagar's bloodlust.
johnhughthom
04-16-2013, 01:44
There doesn't seem to be too much interest here, or elsewhere on the western oriented parts of the net, in how many children died in these (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22149863) attacks today. Perhaps when there is Kadager will stop getting annoyed at the hysteria attacks on western civilians cause.
Papewaio
04-16-2013, 01:57
On the Sydney Morning Herald site the Boston Bombing is headline news with 2 dead.
The Iraqi bombings with 36 dead is further down the page.
What was sad in a way was when I was speaking to a couple of Arab friends, and I brought this up about the Iraqi attack too, they didn't seem to care about that. Seeing as something regular in a rough area, and they came to the west to get away from all of that and not have the west end up like that too.
There doesn't seem to be too much interest here, or elsewhere on the western oriented parts of the net, in how many children died in these (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22149863) attacks today. Perhaps when there is Kadager will stop getting annoyed at the hysteria attacks on western civilians cause.
There's a difference between pointing out this obvious double-standard and actively calling for and rejoicing in the murder of western civilians as some kind of blood penance. You know this so stop acting the people who are reacting to Kad's despicable and childish post are in the wrong.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
04-16-2013, 03:32
There's a difference between pointing out this obvious double-standard and actively calling for and rejoicing in the murder of western civilians as some kind of blood penance. You know this so stop acting the people who are reacting to Kad's despicable and childish post are in the wrong.
I don't think Kad rejoices in anyone's death - but I think he thinks that we shouldn't be surprised at this point.
There doesn't seem to be too much interest here, or elsewhere on the western oriented parts of the net, in how many children died in these (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22149863) attacks today. Perhaps when there is Kadager will stop getting annoyed at the hysteria attacks on western civilians cause.
I'm assuming that's the Iraq attacks? I actually heard about that before I heard of the Boston bombs. I was having lunch with my brother, and ABC was showing the bombing footage, etc in Boston, and I saw on the little news feed thing on the bottom mentioning the Iraq attacks. I pointed out to him that no-one cared, and he agreed, saying that why would they?
Which is true. I sympathise with the victims, but as with Major, I just don't care. I'll read it, feel bad, and scroll on, I might donate some money to a fund, I have before, but that'll be it. If it happened in Aus, I would care more, but I wouldn't expect everyone else to care. We don't care about the Iraq victims because "we're in a war with Iraq". They're just statistics to us. Yet when it happens in our country on a much smaller scale suddenly we care because it is closer to home. They're far away so it doesn't matter if they die. It's oh well, turn the page.
I agree with john, why you would take out your camera at this time is ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous.
a completely inoffensive name
04-16-2013, 03:52
There's a difference between pointing out this obvious double-standard and actively calling for and rejoicing in the murder of western civilians as some kind of blood penance. You know this so stop acting the people who are reacting to Kad's despicable and childish post are in the wrong.
What if Kad genuinely thinks the US and its citizens are monsters? Everyone cheered when Bin Laden was killed, so obviously death in itself is not always a somber act to people on forum. You and Kad just disagree on whether or not the civilians are innocent.
It makes more sense when you approach it from the stance that political apathy is implied consent.
Bit morbid to say but it could have been much worse
I find it increasingly difficult to care about any of this. Happens all over the world, every week, to people who didn't live nearly as well, with nothing but suffering and suck their entire lives until someone finally takes it from them in a final stroke of injustice. They don't get 24/7 news coverage, million dollar memorial ceremonies, and speeches from the POTUS.
Tragic? Of course it is. But at the end of the day, I just don't care. Not laughing about it, not saying anyone deserved it, but I really just do not care.
I thanked you for your post, because I agree with the sentiment.
But if you truly don't care about the dead of an 8 year old, even if it's one of the so many 8 year olds who have died all over the world in similar attacks, then I feel sorry for you.
For all the talk that has been going on about being human in this thread, your post made me feel very sad.
My condolences to all people involved.
HoreTore
04-16-2013, 10:22
Don't squirm, you made it clear you're glad she's dead.
That's only in your own mind.
If you wish to be happy when people die, fine. I'm not.
I thanked you for your post, because I agree with the sentiment.
But if you truly don't care about the dead of an 8 year old, even if it's one of the so many 8 year olds who have died all over the world in similar attacks, then I feel sorry for you.
For all the talk that has been going on about being human in this thread, your post made me feel very sad.
My condolences to all people involved.
Can't really blame him, wimps like us are not used to seeing violence of this sorts. MRD on the other hand is from a warzone
RIP.
I hope the people responsible are caught and duly punished.
It is tragic, but like Frag said it could've been much worse. Other parts of the world see worse, a lot more often.
ICantSpellDawg
04-16-2013, 11:58
They do have someone who is a Saudi national being questioned. Its not just the NY post saying this. They are searching a suspicious apartment at 364 ocean ave, Revere Massachusetts. A 411 search shows multiple people of middle eastern descent or Arabic nomenclature there, including people with the last names Zoukah, Sajid, Mounia. It is, however a large building and that the perpetrator doesn't have to be what they are alluding to.
HoreTore
04-16-2013, 12:15
They do have someone who is a Saudi national being questioned. Its not just the NY post saying this. They are searching a suspicious apartment at 364 ocean ave, Revere Massachusetts. A 411 search shows multiple people of middle eastern descent or Arabic nomenclature there, including people with the last names Zoukah, Sajid, Mounia. It is, however a large building and that the perpetrator doesn't have to be what they are alluding to.
From what I heard, the Saudi was released, and no-one is being interrogated(at least officially)... One of the injured is reportedly being protected by police at the hospital though.
If it is Islamic terrorism, wouldn't we have seen the "three guys in front of a black flag talking nonsense"-video already? Come to think of it, why isn't there a zillion Islamist groups claiming responsibility regardless of whether they did it or not? Even after ABB was identified, jihadi groups were still taking credit... Has Pakistan lost its internet connection, or what?
ICantSpellDawg
04-16-2013, 12:19
I hope it isn't anything more homegrown related to gun restrictions. We are doing so well in the gun debate at the moment, this would just screw it up. It would be counter productive to happen now.
Who knows, maybe they started planning it when things were going poorly and... Once the plan is in motion and all systems are go...
That would be awful
HoreTore
04-16-2013, 12:27
Anders Behring Breivik's american pen-pal, Kevin Forts, lives in Massachusetts. He's been charged with bomb threats previously.
Just throwing it out there....
ICantSpellDawg
04-16-2013, 12:39
I'm just playing into my own fears via your dreams.
I hope it isn't anything more homegrown related to gun restrictions. We are doing so well in the gun debate at the moment, this would just screw it up. It would be counter productive to happen now.
Who knows, maybe they started planning it when things were going poorly and... Once the plan is in motion and all systems are go...
That would be awful
Could be I suppose, wasn't it patriots day. Lots of international flags where it happened
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
04-16-2013, 12:50
That's only in your own mind.
If you wish to be happy when people die, fine. I'm not.
And the worm turns - if you'd been paying attention you'll notice that nothing gets my back up like people saying "good riddance" or "I couldn't care less". Call me old fashioned, but I believe in basic respect for the dead.
Well, this could have been a lot worse, so we should be thankful for that, at least.
The MO appears to indicate clever amateurs at this point.
HoreTore
04-16-2013, 12:55
And the worm turns - if you'd been paying attention you'll notice that nothing gets my back up like people saying "good riddance" or "I couldn't care less". Call me old fashioned, but I believe in basic respect for the dead.
In order for you to think I was happy at Maggie's death, you would have to think I was happy at Saddam's death. I don't see many reasons for that other than you being happy when Saddam died.
As for me, I was not happy when either of the two died.
Rhyfelwyr
04-16-2013, 12:59
To those that say they don't care about this because it happens all the time elsewhere - I think you are misdirecting your sense of disillusionment/anger.
The fact that this incident has receieved more coverage is not (at least primarily) because Westerners regard their lives as more important than those of Iraqis. It is getting all this coverage because it is so out of the ordinary. A bomb going off in Baghdad is not news. In other places, it is.
I recall a few years ago there was an Islamist bomb went off in Kenya and that received a lot of news coverage. Why? Because it was a new development, and suddenly there were a lot of implications to discuss (eg, will Keyan troops become invovled in Somalia, etc). Meanwhile, a bomb in Baghdad is not a development, it is part of an ongoing and established process.
On the other hand, when the Troubles were happening in Northern Ireland, deaths from bomb blasts or shootings would often only be mentioned in passing, if they even made it to the national news. And these were regular white people, with the events happening on British soil. Meanwhile, bombings in Manchester or Dublin received vastly more attention - not because the victims there are seen as being worth more, but because those events were new developments. There's stuff that still goes on in Northern Ireland all the time that would get massive news coverage in England or Scotland.
Best essay of the day (so far):
The Boston Marathon Bombing: Keep Calm and Carry On (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/04/the-boston-marathon-bombing-keep-calm-and-carry-on/275014/)
[T]errorism is designed precisely to scare people -- far out of proportion to its actual danger. A huge amount of research on fear and the brain teaches us that we exaggerate threats that are rare, spectacular, immediate, random -- in this case involving an innocent child -- senseless, horrific and graphic. Terrorism pushes all of our fear buttons, really hard, and we overreact.
But our brains are fooling us. Even though this will be in the news for weeks, we should recognize this for what it is: a rare event. [...]
Remember after 9/11 when people predicted we'd see these sorts of attacks every few months? That never happened, and it wasn't because the TSA confiscated knives and snow globes at airports. Give the FBI credit for rolling up terrorist networks and interdicting terrorist funding, but we also exaggerated the threat. [...]
Terrorism isn't primarily a crime against people or property. It's a crime against our minds, using the deaths of innocents and destruction of property as accomplices. When we react from fear, when we change our laws and policies to make our country less open, the terrorists succeed, even if their attacks fail. But when we refuse to be terrorized, when we're indomitable in the face of terror, the terrorists fail, even if their attacks succeed.
Don't glorify the terrorists and their actions by calling this part of a "war on terror." Wars involve two legitimate sides. There's only one legitimate side here; those on the other are criminals. They should be found, arrested, and punished. But we need to be vigilant not to weaken the very freedoms and liberties that make this country great, meanwhile, just because we're scared.
Empathize, but refuse to be terrorized. Instead, be indomitable -- and support leaders who are as well. That's how to defeat terrorists.
Major Robert Dump
04-16-2013, 14:30
To those that say they don't care about this because it happens all the time elsewhere - I think you are misdirecting your sense of disillusionment/anger.
The fact that this incident has receieved more coverage is not (at least primarily) because Westerners regard their lives as more important than those of Iraqis. It is getting all this coverage because it is so out of the ordinary. A bomb going off in Baghdad is not news. In other places, it is.
I recall a few years ago there was an Islamist bomb went off in Kenya and that received a lot of news coverage. Why? Because it was a new development, and suddenly there were a lot of implications to discuss (eg, will Keyan troops become invovled in Somalia, etc). Meanwhile, a bomb in Baghdad is not a development, it is part of an ongoing and established process.
On the other hand, when the Troubles were happening in Northern Ireland, deaths from bomb blasts or shootings would often only be mentioned in passing, if they even made it to the national news. And these were regular white people, with the events happening on British soil. Meanwhile, bombings in Manchester or Dublin received vastly more attention - not because the victims there are seen as being worth more, but because those events were new developments. There's stuff that still goes on in Northern Ireland all the time that would get massive news coverage in England or Scotland.
Yes, murders and death are so very uncommon in America.
People will always respond with more gusto when it happens to their own, in their own backyard. Perfectly common on a state, national and ethnic level. Been guilty of it myself, back when my give-a-damns were more than zero.
It's all horrible and terrible and the people who did it should suffer. But I am fresh out of outrage and shock. Used all mine up earlier in the month. Probably should have kept some in reserve since April typically has a couple of dates significant to people who want to murder and maim. Maybe next year.
Seamus Fermanagh
04-16-2013, 20:08
I said a few aves.
Saddening to me. Even more saddening is MRD's response -- mostly because I understand his point. Kadagar's response -- though I am only inferring it rather than having read it -- does not sadden me. Some will always take that perspective -- poking epithets at the policital "top dog" is too entertaining to worry about the people harmed as opposed to the message of hate.
MRD's is worse, because he was among those we sent in harm's way to respond to/fight our "war on terror." If he is so burned out by such things that he can't bring himself to give a rat's patootie, that is far more concerning to me.
400 dead in Iran just now because of an earthquake. How was your day
HoreTore
04-16-2013, 21:04
400 dead in Iran just now because of an earthquake. How was your day
A glorious example of why you shouldn't rely on blogs for information:
The number of casualties in Iran is not confirmed. 27 was reported by the state media, but that has since been withdrawn. 34 are reported killed in Pakistan.
Blogs are worthless.
A glorious example of why you shouldn't rely on blogs for information:
The number of casualties in Iran is not confirmed. 27 was reported by the state media, but that has since been withdrawn. 34 are reported killed in Pakistan.
Blogs are worthless.
Slow fuse, you will see
To those that say they don't care about this because it happens all the time elsewhere - I think you are misdirecting your sense of disillusionment/anger.
I disagree.
The fact that this incident has receieved more coverage is not (at least primarily) because Westerners regard their lives as more important than those of Iraqis.
Debatable but also somewhat normal to care more about oneself or one's own family.
It is getting all this coverage because it is so out of the ordinary. A bomb going off in Baghdad is not news. In other places, it is.
I recall a few years ago there was an Islamist bomb went off in Kenya and that received a lot of news coverage. Why? Because it was a new development, and suddenly there were a lot of implications to discuss (eg, will Keyan troops become invovled in Somalia, etc). Meanwhile, a bomb in Baghdad is not a development, it is part of an ongoing and established process.
Wow, yes, so that's our reality. We've simply accepted that Iraqis die because it costs us too much money to help them and they're probably used to dieing all the time by now?
The fact that it is a common occurrence down there is all the more a reason to care about it. Otherwise I might just wish we had more bombings in the west so that I won't have to be so shocked anymore because that's really inconvenient. Maybe we can get bombings to the care-level of car accidents and cancer so we can deal with actually important issues and follow the advice Lemur quoted more easily.
HoreTore
04-16-2013, 22:34
I think you need to make a separation between rational and irrational feelings and thoughts, Husar.
Rhy's post is a good description of our irrational thinking, yours is a good description of rational thinking.
You may not like his analysis, but I think Rhyfelwyr offers a good explanation as to why this bombing gets more attention than the 1.784th terrorist attack in Iraq :shrug:
Strike For The South
04-16-2013, 23:01
An 8 year old kid should never have to for geo political interests he will never understand (perhaps that some sort of macabre blessing). Of course that maxim cuts both ways. The USA, like most other "great" states has accrued enough bad karma, it's honestly a wonder it doesn't happen more often. I don't subscribe to the naive myopia that assumes that foreign intervention and terror attacks are on a binary It should also be noted that we have no idea if this is a result of foreign or domestic forces. I find it funny that the same people who claim this will lessen the tonnes of bombs dropped on brown people are also the first to point the finger at them.
I think this is just the world we live in now. The goalposts have been moved, no longer do we worry about another giant across the sea, instead we worry about short, brutish acts of terrorism. So it goes, I suppose.
Rhyfelwyr
04-16-2013, 23:06
Wow, yes, so that's our reality. We've simply accepted that Iraqis die because it costs us too much money to help them and they're probably used to dieing all the time by now?
The fact that it is a common occurrence down there is all the more a reason to care about it. Otherwise I might just wish we had more bombings in the west so that I won't have to be so shocked anymore because that's really inconvenient. Maybe we can get bombings to the care-level of car accidents and cancer so we can deal with actually important issues and follow the advice Lemur quoted more easily.
The function of the news is to tell us what is going on in the world, not to provide a memorial service. The fact that one tragedy recieves a lot of coverage while another does not does not necessarily mean that the victims of one were seen as more important or worthy of symphathy than those of the other.
Like I said, this single bombing could have big political and social consequences in ways that a bombing in Baghdad would not. Along with the fact that it is domestic news (well, for our Americans anyway) that is why it gets so much coverage. Just because the sheer volume of atrocities in Baghdad means that they can't receive the same coverage does not mean that people do not care (well maybe they don't, but that's not the reason why they get little coverage).
Montmorency
04-16-2013, 23:21
The function of the news is to tell us what is going on in the world
The function of the news (media) is to generate dividends for shareholders.
well maybe they don't, but that's not the reason why they get little coverage
Therefore, it is precisely the reason.
As it so happens, serious geopol-analysis outfits - which more than others "tell us what is going on in the world" - give quite a lot of coverage to bombings in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and so on. Just because something has transpired 'yet again in the same place' does not mean that it's just business as usual. Think about Al-Shabab in Nigeria - 'oh, more terrorist attacks in Nigeria? Whatever.' As it turned out, from 2010-12 the widening range, frequency, and complexity of their attacks turned out to reflect imported training from Al-Qaeda.
It's the very same with these 'rare' attacks on the Western world (if this is indeed one such): more often than not the events have the character of an archetype, of local radicals attempting to produce a serious effect on the enemy state while evading the enemy's security forces. Same techniques, same goals, same motivations, same story. For one to get through the defenses is indeed rare, but it is certainly not novel. It doesn't even mean that the security apparatus is breaking down! (Of course, keeping in mind that we don't yet know what really happened here. For all we know, Boston was the first step in a series of coordinated attacks by Al-Qaeda, each bigger than the last. You get the point, I hope...)
Rhyfelwyr
04-17-2013, 00:16
The function of the news (media) is to generate dividends for shareholders.
Well that depends on the station, and it's not really relevant for our purposes here. Like I said, the reason events are reported is to show significant events, not provide an obituary.
Therefore, it [lack of care on the publics part] is precisely the reason [why bombings in the Middle East do not receive coverage].
That is, as I said, at best partly true. Most news stations do show some sort of integrity, rather than just going with whatever's popular.
As it so happens, serious geopol-analysis outfits - which more than others "tell us what is going on in the world" - give quite a lot of coverage to bombings in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, and so on. Just because something has transpired 'yet again in the same place' does not mean that it's just business as usual. Think about Al-Shabab in Nigeria - 'oh, more terrorist attacks in Nigeria? Whatever.' As it turned out, from 2010-12 the widening range, frequency, and complexity of their attacks turned out to reflect imported training from Al-Qaeda.
The crucial difference there being that the value of the analysis lies in the patterns that these attacks collectively show - rather than any real impact from one individual attack.
Events like the Boston bombing are different - the very event is and of itself a phenomenon, a new development,even if this is only due to where it happened.
Also, Al-Shabab are a Somali group are they not? Unless you mean Boko Haram?
Montmorency
04-17-2013, 00:29
:daisy: me, that's right. :sweatdrop:
the reason events are reported is to show significant events
It seems to me that most local or national cable news focuses on frivolous feel-good stories and minor outrages.
As for the online fronts of those news networks - forget about it, they'll publish anything.
LittleGrizzly
04-17-2013, 01:30
I thanked you for your post, because I agree with the sentiment.
But if you truly don't care about the dead of an 8 year old, even if it's one of the so many 8 year olds who have died all over the world in similar attacks, then I feel sorry for you.
For all the talk that has been going on about being human in this thread, your post made me feel very sad.
My condolences to all people involved.
I thanked MRD as well so I will give you my take.
There is so much death going on around the world, from children to adults to old people that there literally isn't the time to mourn the passing of every human life. You are only going to hear about a certain amount of them anyway...
If you spent even an hour of each day upset at the death of someone you have never heard off outside of a mention in the news you would spend half your waking hours upset.
If I watched a long documentary on any victim of a tragedy with upset relatives and friends talking about their dreams and wishes and how great a person they were I would be upset at their death...
Those I only hear the name off or see a picture off along with a news story telling of their passing I feel very little for, it may be cold but I value the lives of all human beings the same so if one child and 2 adults dying in Boston left me feeling terrible I would never get out of bed given the daily tragedies occurring much more often in worse off parts of the world.
There will be the occasional line that hits me, like hearing of runners having their legs amputated but mostly I am cold to things reported by the news.
All that said I hope the loss is as painless as possible for the families of the deceased and those with injuries manage to live life to the fullest.
My suspicion is that it is domestic.
Reasons to think it's domestic:
Tax day
Patriot day
Obama derangement syndrome
Reasons to think it's foreign:
East coast (urban) target
Synchronized bombs
I think you need to make a separation between rational and irrational feelings and thoughts, Husar.
Rhy's post is a good description of our irrational thinking, yours is a good description of rational thinking.
You may not like his analysis, but I think Rhyfelwyr offers a good explanation as to why this bombing gets more attention than the 1.784th terrorist attack in Iraq :shrug:
Wow, yes, so that's our reality.
After that I was simply explaining my disgust with humanity and why we will always have wars and bombings as long as we define such irrationality as valid "thinking". :soapbox:
The function of the news is to tell us what is going on in the world, not to provide a memorial service. The fact that one tragedy recieves a lot of coverage while another does not does not necessarily mean that the victims of one were seen as more important or worthy of symphathy than those of the other.
The purpose of the news is to generate money for the shareholders. Money is generated by advertisement depending on the number of vieewers. The number of viewers increases during subjects that these viewers care deeply about. As such the subjects are chosen according to what people want to see. What people want to see is what they care about. Idem quo ipso tracet lalelu if the news don't show Baghdad bombings it's because that doesn't generate much revenue because people don't care as much.
Like I said, this single bombing could have big political and social consequences in ways that a bombing in Baghdad would not. Along with the fact that it is domestic news (well, for our Americans anyway) that is why it gets so much coverage.
Yes, and what does it tell us when 2 dead have more political consequences than 31 dead? And what does it tell us about how much we value the lives of foreigners when we care more about two domestic deaths than 31 deaths of foreigners?
It's not that your description of the world is completely wrong, I just criticize human thinking, which is seemingly incompatible with globalization or at least severely lagging behind.
Just because the sheer volume of atrocities in Baghdad means that they can't receive the same coverage does not mean that people do not care (well maybe they don't, but that's not the reason why they get little coverage).
As I explained above, that people don't care IS the reason there is so little coverage. Proper journalism for the betterment of mankind is in its last throes.
HoreTore
04-17-2013, 10:27
After that I was simply explaining my disgust with humanity and why we will always have wars and bombings as long as we define such irrationality as valid "thinking". :soapbox:
I'd say discarding irrational thinking(ie emotions) as irrelevant is itself an irrational thought ~;)
After that I was simply explaining my disgust with humanity and why we will always have wars and bombings as long as we define such irrationality as valid "thinking". :soapbox:
Contrary to popular belief, human beings are not rational.
The purpose of the news is to generate money for the shareholders. Money is generated by advertisement depending on the number of vieewers. The number of viewers increases during subjects that these viewers care deeply about. As such the subjects are chosen according to what people want to see. What people want to see is what they care about. Idem quo ipso tracet lalelu if the news don't show Baghdad bombings it's because that doesn't generate much revenue because people don't care as much.
I agree with you that the days of good investigative journalism, decent and well-made documentaries about ongoing events and quality news in general are, sadly, almost over. Not everything about capitalism is good.
Yes, and what does it tell us when 2 dead have more political consequences than 31 dead? And what does it tell us about how much we value the lives of foreigners when we care more about two domestic deaths than 31 deaths of foreigners?
It tells us that humanity hasn't evolved much since the middle ages, which shouldn't come as a surprise since evolution is a very slow proces. What do you expect from humanity? That in a few hundreds years we evolve from a warmongering bloodlusty and tribal species towards some sort of saints? We are what we are. Thanks to people like you, we'll hopefully evolve into something better.
You should stop wasting your time posting here and go out to spread your genes ~;p
I'd say discarding irrational thinking(ie emotions) as irrelevant is itself an irrational thought ~;)
Of course, I agree. My point was that we should not confuse emotions with thoughts and maybe use thoughts a little more often instead of running into the next wall based on our immediate emotions.
Contrary to popular belief, human beings are not rational.
Indeed, I'm not even claiming that I am. I'm not sure whether that's popular belief though, if it is then we're even worse off than I thought. ~;)
It tells us that humanity hasn't evolved much since the middle ages, which shouldn't come as a surprise since evolution is a very slow proces. What do you expect from humanity? That in a few hundreds years we evolve from a warmongering bloodlusty and tribal species towards some sort of saints? We are what we are. Thanks to people like you, we'll hopefully evolve into something better.
Yes, that is the problem, we are using technologies which are way above our evolutionary capabilities. What I demand is a return to tribal structures, dismantling of inter-regional infrastructures (internet, water, electric energy, roads), nation states, region-states and city-centric administration structures. The monkeysphere of any given person does not exceed roughly 130 persons so that's the size self-sustainable communities should have. This whole "Obama calls Putin on behalf of 300 million Americans"-concept is stupid because Obama can't even grasp the 300 million, at best he can call someone on behalf of 130 other people.
The current structures we built up are so bad that they lead us to the brink of self-destruction again and again and one day it might just actually happen.
You should stop waste your time posting here and go out and spread your genes ~;p
Whenever I find a good emotional and rational match (in my opinion), she disagrees about it. And why should it surprise us? I can't even get my point across to you rational males without explaining it again and again, how could a more emotional female of our species be expected to "get me"? They always attribute things to me that I find utterly wrong, misplaced and simply showing a lack of understanding for my personality...
Reasons to think it's domestic:
Tax day
Patriot day
Obama derangement syndrome
Reasons to think it's foreign:
East coast (urban) target
Synchronized bombs
My bet is on domestic, Breivik type. Noticed all the international flags where the first explosions went off
Seamus Fermanagh
04-17-2013, 12:49
....at the finish line of an international race (the Boston having been one of the marquee events in its genre for some time).
Not a key factor. Location was chosen for maximum casualtiess and likelihood of cameras at finish of race.
I favor the idea of a foreign operative/source because the target was NOT connected to the USG (which makes me think the domestic points noted by Lemur are less likely to apply in this case) and because they were smaller, anti-personnel explosions. The USA mentality is usually "Bigger is Better" with things that go boom -- hence Oklahoma.
HoreTore
04-17-2013, 12:58
....at the finish line of an international race (the Boston having been one of the marquee events in its genre for some time).
Not a key factor. Location was chosen for maximum casualtiess and likelihood of cameras at finish of race.
I favor the idea of a foreign operative/source because the target was NOT connected to the USG (which makes me think the domestic points noted by Lemur are less likely to apply in this case) and because they were smaller, anti-personnel explosions. The USA mentality is usually "Bigger is Better" with things that go boom -- hence Oklahoma.
US domestic mentality is also small, in the form of poisoned letters, for example.
I'm leaning towards a random loonie right now, kind of like that Batman cinema shooter.
And now there has been a blast in Bangalore (http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/17/blast-in-bangalore-injures-at-least-13/). Luckily no one was injured.
All this is really depressing.
Looks like there's a suspect (http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/cnn-suspect-in-boston-marathon-bombings-clearly-identified). Good.
[V]ideo footage from the Lord and Taylor department store and from a local Boston television station has led investigators to believe that they have "clearly identified" the individual who placed one of the explosive devices at the site of the second explosion. The department store on Boylston Street is located near the site of the second explosion. [...]
A separate report by the Boston Globe indicated that authorities have an image showing a suspect "carrying, and perhaps dropping, a black bag at the second bombing scene on Boylston Street." The Globe quoted a source who said authorities are "very close" in the investigation.
There's a ton of stuff going on the 4chan boards about this. Apparently there's been a number of pretty damn good "dissections" of all the "evidence" and they seem to have identified upwards of two people that seem to have been potential bombers. Someone's also posted an analysis of the bombing materials found and it looks like really common stuff, a low-expertise build, and the bomber may have had to have been within several hundred feet when it went off. Some of the stuff makes sense, it's amazing what the Internet enables folks to do these days.
Seamus Fermanagh
04-17-2013, 21:19
US domestic mentality is also small, in the form of poisoned letters, for example.
I'm leaning towards a random loonie right now, kind of like that Batman cinema shooter.
Apparently we have that running at the moment too; risin laced letters sent to D.C.
Greyblades
04-18-2013, 00:44
I wonder why someone would think a poisoned letter would be a good method to kill the president with.
There's a ton of stuff going on the 4chan boards about this. Apparently there's been a number of pretty damn good "dissections" of all the "evidence" and they seem to have identified upwards of two people that seem to have been potential bombers. Someone's also posted an analysis of the bombing materials found and it looks like really common stuff, a low-expertise build, and the bomber may have had to have been within several hundred feet when it went off. Some of the stuff makes sense, it's amazing what the Internet enables folks to do these days.
Indeed, someone payed really good attention there, must be the guy
Greyblades
04-18-2013, 11:21
So there's been a huge explosion down texas way and surprisingly enough it wasnt an oil platform. Connected?
a completely inoffensive name
04-18-2013, 11:42
So there's been a huge explosion down texas way and surprisingly enough it wasnt an oil platform. Connected?
Not really, it was a storage facility for ammonia nitrates (for the purpose of fertilizer) from what I hear. You don't want to be around that stuff if a fire accidentally breaks out.
Conradus
04-18-2013, 12:51
There's a ton of stuff going on the 4chan boards about this. Apparently there's been a number of pretty damn good "dissections" of all the "evidence" and they seem to have identified upwards of two people that seem to have been potential bombers. Someone's also posted an analysis of the bombing materials found and it looks like really common stuff, a low-expertise build, and the bomber may have had to have been within several hundred feet when it went off. Some of the stuff makes sense, it's amazing what the Internet enables folks to do these days.
Unfortunately for every decent analysis the internet gives us, there are two more conspiracy whacko's who appear.
ICantSpellDawg
04-18-2013, 13:09
The 4chan photos are convincing. There are 2 conspicuous white people and 3 conspicuous middle eastern people. The photo of the guy with the big bag then without it is also convincing. I think that this is a homegrown Islamic extremist. I feared that it was some crazy 2A supporter, but that doesn't seem likely.
Listen, I'm a history major, but black powder is one of the easiest things to make. 3 ingredients. In a common pressure cooker with lightbulb ignition, this is the simplest concept imaginable. It is scary to think how much damage can be done and how easily, it is a miracle that these things don't happen every day. I have always avoided large, crowded places for the noise, smell, overpriced food, standing room only, uncomfortable temp. Add this to the nearly endless list of why these things are a dumb and pointless idea
Rhyfelwyr
04-18-2013, 14:17
I noticed that this explosion took place in Waco. That wouldn't by Waco as in, Waco Siege would it?
johnhughthom
04-18-2013, 14:33
Yep.
Rhyfelwyr
04-18-2013, 15:03
Surely that would point to homegrown extremism? I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this.
Surely that would point to homegrown extremism? I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this.
The Waco explosion was at a fertilizer plant that was already on fire. Industrial accident, not terrorism. Ammonium nitrate can be some nasty stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROrpKx3aIjA
But on the Boston bombing, I'm leaning towards domestic.
Another Anders Breivik then. :sad:
Seamus Fermanagh
04-18-2013, 17:33
The fertilizer factory is located in West, Texas. The Waco fire department (about 30 minutes away) is handling the problem because the West Volunteer fire department, all six of them, were apparently killed in the blast. The area is currently being treated as a crime scene, just on the off chance that it was not an accident, but there are no specific indications that this was NOT an industrial accident.
Authorities have made no conclusive statements regarding the perpetrator(s) in Boston. The 24 hour news cycle is, of course, leaping at any half-statement made.
HoreTore
04-18-2013, 17:46
The fertilizer factory is located in West, Texas. The Waco fire department (about 30 minutes away) is handling the problem because the West Volunteer fire department, all six of them, were apparently killed in the blast. The area is currently being treated as a crime scene, just on the off chance that it was not an accident, but there are no specific indications that this was NOT an industrial accident.
An industrial accident like that should be treated as a crime, becaus it likely is one. I find it hard to believe that you can have an accident like this and not break any laws regarding proper handling of dangerous materials.
HoreTore
04-18-2013, 18:12
Minimal government FTW!
The free market can regulate itself.
Supposedly authorities have two pics of two men, which will be released Thursday (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/18/boston-marathon-bombing-suspect-photos_n_3108371.html).
And one of the main suspects "identified" by 4CHAN and Reddit has approached police to clear his own name. Police agree: He's innocent (http://www.businessinsider.com/salah-barhoun-clears-name-2013-4).
As with everything on this story, until it's all confirmed by police, nothing should be taken as a given.
Papewaio
04-18-2013, 20:37
So in response to the explosion in West Texas can we expect a War on Fire as the outcome?
Seamus Fermanagh
04-18-2013, 20:56
An industrial accident like that should be treated as a crime, becaus it likely is one. I find it hard to believe that you can have an accident like this and not break any laws regarding proper handling of dangerous materials.
You are correct, of course, but the investigative process used when an "accident" is suspected -- which may well be negligence in action -- isn't usually labeled a "criminal" investigation. It is, but doesn't get that label.
HoreTore
04-18-2013, 21:12
Supposedly authorities have two pics of two men, which will be released Thursday (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/18/boston-marathon-bombing-suspect-photos_n_3108371.html).
And one of the main suspects "identified" by 4CHAN and Reddit has approached police to clear his own name. Police agree: He's innocent (http://www.businessinsider.com/salah-barhoun-clears-name-2013-4).
As with everything on this story, until it's all confirmed by police, nothing should be taken as a given.
4Chan got something wrong?!?!
They get everything wrong. Period.
You are correct, of course, but the investigative process used when an "accident" is suspected -- which may well be negligence in action -- isn't usually labeled a "criminal" investigation. It is, but doesn't get that label.
Ah. It does here, so that's the source of my confusion... Oh well, precaution because of Boston it is then, I guess.
So in response to the explosion in West Texas can we expect a War on Fire as the outcome?
This is fertilizer we are talking about, so it will be a War On :daisy:.
Papewaio
04-18-2013, 22:06
There is a good reason that we allow relatively easy access to ammonia nitrates.
"Fertilizer generated from ammonia produced by the Haber process is estimated to be responsible for sustaining one-third of the Earth's population" Haber Process -Wikipedia
Essentially even when abused and handled incorrectly and used as a bomb the number of deaths is far less then automobiles & ammonia nitrates are responsible for allowing more human lives.
To break even on human lives-deaths with ammonia nitrate it would take about 800 million Boston bombings to wipe out the amount of people alive because of ammonia nitrate.
So yes it should be treated with care. But we should be careful how we react to its use otherwise we will cause an increase in food costs for very little benefit.
Tellos Athenaios
04-19-2013, 00:06
It is surprising to me that such a plant was allowed to stay open after failing to meet basic standards seven years ago! The fertilizer they make in that plant is the prime ingredient in most loony home-made bombs. Even in Iraq in 2008 most of the bombs were made from fertilizer and ball-bearings (because, you know, eventually you run out of the good stuff). I know everybody needs fertilizer, but if ever there was an industry that ought to be regulated much better then I would imagine this is one of them.
Meh. Judging by the NRA crowd; that would only make the red neck types go back tot the good old days of every farmer his own dung heap which will promptly catch fire come the hot, sweltering summer.
Populus Romanus
04-19-2013, 04:54
Shots fired at MIT.
Hooahguy
04-19-2013, 05:08
This week cant end fast enough, what the hell is going on with the world?
https://twitter.com/search?q=MIT&src=typd
Officer killed and gunman on the loose.
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2013/04/theres-shooter-loose-and-officer-down-mit/64379/
Warning: Graphic image.
a completely inoffensive name
04-19-2013, 05:56
Shots fired at MIT.
GOOD THING WE DON'T NEED THOSE BACKGROUND CHECKS ANYMORE GUYS. GRAB YOUR GUNS AND LETS GET THEM!
Hooahguy
04-19-2013, 06:18
Holy hell, if you listen to the police scanners they are asking for long guns and that there are multiple explosives and grenades.
What the...
EDIT: apparently the National Guard was called in?
Populus Romanus
04-19-2013, 06:49
Is this coincidental correlation, copycat, or related to the bombings? :confused:
Hooahguy
04-19-2013, 06:52
Its too early to tell, Im not even sure if any of the suspects have been apprehended.
HoreTore
04-19-2013, 07:55
They're not apprehended, but the police has released photo of the two suspects in the bombing.
Perhaps the reason no terrorist group has claimed responsibility, is because the attack isn't over yet? And if it's Al-Q again, isn't this the first time they've used firearms in their attacks(on foreign soil)?
They're not apprehended, but the police has released photo of the two suspects in the bombing.
Perhaps the reason no terrorist group has claimed responsibility, is because the attack isn't over yet? And if it's Al-Q again, isn't this the first time they've used firearms in their attacks(on foreign soil)?
Forgot about that hotel in India?
HoreTore
04-19-2013, 09:31
Forgot about that hotel in India?
I guess I did. Though India isn't that foreign to pakistanis...
Sir Moody
04-19-2013, 09:36
Forgot about that hotel in India?
that wasn't an Al-Q style group it was part of the ongoing Kashmir conflict - and guns are common in the long history of terrorism in that conflict
that wasn't an Al-Q style group it was part of the ongoing Kashmir conflict - and guns are common in the long history of terrorism in that conflict
I thought it had been claimed but I am not sure, disregard post
ICantSpellDawg
04-19-2013, 12:17
I think that they are Dagestani MIT students. Interesting
HoreTore
04-19-2013, 12:28
KGB sleeper cells then!
Finding out who said the trigger word will be top priority.
ICantSpellDawg
04-19-2013, 12:43
Islamic Seperatists. The news is reporting them as Chechen. Either way, Islamic Seperatists. But why here? Why not Moscow or something?
Islamic Seperatists. The news is reporting them as Chechen. Either way, Islamic Seperatists. But why here? Why not Moscow or something?
Guy looked pretty tanned for a Chechen seperatist
LittleGrizzly
04-19-2013, 12:52
Islamic Seperatists. The news is reporting them as Chechen. Either way, Islamic Seperatists. But why here? Why not Moscow or something?
That does seem strange choice for a Chechen, Russia being the classic choice. I could almost understand a Palestinian but America doesn't really give any support to the Russians with Chechnya other than fighting Islamic extremism elsewhere...
Strange.
ICantSpellDawg
04-19-2013, 13:00
Guy looked pretty tanned for a Chechen seperatist
Central Asians are the most fascinating people on earth. The Caucasus region has had what seems like every single culture deeply invested there at some point. People from South Eastern Russian Caucasus have Iranian, Turkic, Arabic, Armenian, Caucasian, European roots. People have been ruled by Christians, Muslims, pantheists and even Jews at certain points. Some were shipped into the area during the Communist revolution from all over Russia. Muslims with drinking problems. Cross the Caspian and the people get even more interesting and start looking East Asian... In Mosques... After getting drunk... And speaking Russian... To Indians...
That does seem strange choice for a Chechen, Russia being the classic choice. I could almost understand a Palestinian but America doesn't really give any support to the Russians with Chechnya other than fighting Islamic extremism elsewhere...
Strange.
Indeed.
My bet is on a Breivik-type
Central Asians are the most fascinating people on earth. The Caucasus region has had what seems like every single culture deeply invested there at some point. People from South Eastern Russian Caucasus have Iranian, Turkic, Arabic, Armenian, Caucasian, European roots. People have been ruled by Christians, Muslims, pantheists and even Jews at certain points. Some were shipped into the area during the Communist revolution from all over Russia. Muslims with drinking problems. Cross the Caspian and the people get even more interesting and start looking East Asian... In Mosques... After getting drunk... And speaking Russian... To Indians...
Pretty sure the dark guy is a negroe, they aren't very popular in the east
ICantSpellDawg
04-19-2013, 13:09
They are reporting that he is Kyrgyz. So... Nowhere near Chechnya. The US has bases there and they've been going through civil strife for years with a US airbase supplying ISAF
Edit: brother might be Chechen. Probably different mothers, dad may have been traveling Soviet military during 80s and 90s making babies all over central Asia.
Looks like they are Chechen after all. Why bomb people in the US I don't get it
HoreTore
04-19-2013, 16:42
Looks like they are Chechen after all. Why bomb people in the US I don't get it
Apparently they emigrated 10 years ago. A link to Chechnya is thus unlikely. Seems like it's a(nother) case of a homegrown terrorist.
Seamus Fermanagh
04-19-2013, 17:00
Looks like they are Chechen after all. Why bomb people in the US I don't get it
Sadly, one of the answers to your question is "it gets great media coverage if you whack USA'ers."
Apparently they emigrated 10 years ago. A link to Chechnya is thus unlikely. Seems like it's a(nother) case of a homegrown terrorist.
You are probably right about that
Major Robert Dump
04-19-2013, 23:30
A notable number of the dead Taliban turn out to be Chechen. The ones I have seen in person tend to have darker skin than these guys. And, ya know, be dead and stuff.
Chechen muslims have plenty of reason to kill americans, whether they were born in Dagestan, Kyrgystan or wherever. Fight one muslims fight them all.... didnt help them when Russia was raping their border villages.....they grow up here and feel like outsiders probably because they act like outsiders and then they get mad and the anger festers and then boom.
So, older brother (warned about by the Russians) gets killed this morning in a shootout with the cops, and the younger apprehended alive hiding in a boat in someone's back yard. It will be interesting to see the CYA/finger pointing about ignoring the older brother.
Chechen muslims have plenty of reason to kill americans, whether they were born in Dagestan, Kyrgystan or wherever. Fight one muslims fight them all.... didnt help them when Russia was raping their border villages.....they grow up here and feel like outsiders probably because they act like outsiders and then they get mad and the anger festers and then boom.
I was listening to the radio this morning and they were interviewing a woman who said her nephew was good friends with the younger brother, supposedly in high school he was fairly popular and never talked about his religion.
That's the creepy part they look like really nice guys. Things like this really can't be prevented, and we really don't want type of security that could.
So what will Russia say about the US liberation campaign in Chechnya?
Will it be a coordinated effort or will Russia and the US fight over who gets to liberate it first? ~;)
You are not supposed to have a sense of humour Husar you are German, doesn't anything make any sense anymore
I was listening to the radio this morning and they were interviewing a woman who said her nephew was good friends with the younger brother, supposedly in high school he was fairly popular and never talked about his religion.
Most religious extremists are not really known for their in-depth knowledge of their religious convictions.
Most religious extremists are not really known for their in-depth knowledge of their religious convictions.
Could just as easibily been seperatists, nobody knows. Nobody claimed the attack, kinda odd considering how much hurt it caused
Kadagar_AV
04-20-2013, 12:46
I must say the police seem to have done everything right. Kudos to the Boston Police for having the skill and will to capture him alive.
Also, very good spirit shown by Boston in general. Finally some people in the USA have understood that the best way to fight terrorism is to go on with your daily lives as if nothing happened.
One does however hope that a lingering thought of WHY it happened remains.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkcOkK4MYIw
I must say the police seem to have done everything right. Kudos to the Boston Police for having the skill and will to capture him alive.
Also, very good spirit shown by Boston in general. Finally some people in the USA have understood that the best way to fight terrorism is to go on with your daily lives as if nothing happened.
One does however hope that a lingering thought of WHY it happened remains.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkcOkK4MYIw
They did fine enough after 9-11, what do you mean with 'finally'.
“On the other hand, 10 years isn't a long time for a sleeper cell”: Sleeper at 9 years old?
“given our relatively good relations with Russia”: About Georgia or Kosovo?
“Fight one muslims fight them all” True, it is how extremists see it. They just forget the help to the Bosnian and the Kosovars… In fact, until the Bush No2, the US policy was more in favour of Muslim Populations than others (some said at that time it was to counter-balance the unconditional support for Israel). And before, help to Afghanistan against the Russian support of Pakistan and Indonesia…
gaelic cowboy
04-20-2013, 17:41
Will it be classed as federal or state, is there any chance he will get the rope this fella???
True, it is how extremists see it. They just forget the help to the Bosnian and the Kosovars… In fact, until the Bush No2, the US policy was more in favour of Muslim Populations than others (some said at that time it was to counter-balance the unconditional support for Israel). And before, help to Afghanistan against the Russian support of Pakistan and Indonesia…
Yeah, more-or-less. The presence of foreign individuals in the Afghan and Bosnian conflicts has been well-documented, but as far as I'm aware, to a lesser degree in Algeria, Chechnya and Kashmir (for example).
“The presence of foreign individuals in the Afghan and Bosnian conflicts” Err, more than individuals… In Bosnia, the existence of a Mudjahine Brigade was confirmed. And I had a 1st eye witness as one of my translators after the war in Gorazde was one of their translators.
Even the Chechens had their moment when the west did care. Until they started to kidnap NGO workers, cut fingers and ask for ransoms… Then attack on theatre and schools didn’t help…
ICantSpellDawg
04-20-2013, 23:29
No we aren't. I am against it. Rand Paul is against it. I'm sure that Diane Feinstein is for ir
Strike For The South
04-20-2013, 23:55
So... Enemy Combatant, or no? Republicans are already pushing for it.
:creep:
Getting your ideas from yemeni periodicals does not an enemy combatant make
“The presence of foreign individuals in the Afghan and Bosnian conflicts” Err, more than individuals… In Bosnia, the existence of a Mudjahine Brigade was confirmed. And I had a 1st eye witness as one of my translators after the war in Gorazde was one of their translators.
Even the Chechens had their moment when the west did care. Until they started to kidnap NGO workers, cut fingers and ask for ransoms… Then attack on theatre and schools didn’t help…
Well, those still constitute individuals. Groups of individuals. Or somehing.
Greyblades
04-21-2013, 00:19
No we aren't. I am against it. Rand Paul is against it. I'm sure that Diane Feinstein is for ir
Soo... basically the republicans.
...Okay, okay; minus those who aren't 100% crazy yet know they cant get elected without the republican name.
Kadagar_AV
04-21-2013, 02:56
Should I be worried about an issue of them being seen as "enemy combatants", or is there still some level of clear thinking going on?
Let's cut the **** and hope he doesn't get tortured.
I <3 memes.
Terrorists are criminals and should be dealt with by the law enforcement agencies.
I think in this case the Boston police department I guess. If the guy had run into a school and shot 20 children they would have done the same after all. Terrorism is just that usually, a despicable act of mass murder and mass murder makes you a criminal. Terrorism is just a fancy name for mass murder with a certain purpose but that shouldn't change who deals with it and how we deal with it. It's just because of the irrational fear of it that governments get away with more when they say that word IMO.
Oh and he's an American citizen anyway. His brother wasn't but he's dead.
Terrorists are criminals and should be dealt with by the law enforcement agencies.
I think in this case the Boston police department I guess. If the guy had run into a school and shot 20 children they would have done the same after all. Terrorism is just that usually, a despicable act of mass murder and mass murder makes you a criminal. Terrorism is just a fancy name for mass murder with a certain purpose but that shouldn't change who deals with it and how we deal with it. It's just because of the irrational fear of it that governments get away with more when they say that word IMO.
Oh and he's an American citizen anyway. His brother wasn't but he's dead.
Despite it being a seemingly minor point, I shall have to respectfully disagree in parts with my German friend. Whilst there is no proper definition to be found on terrorism (none internationally recognised), the threat of harming a populace and destroying property is often enough for one to be classed a terrorist. In other words, one need not be a mass murderer to be a terrorist (mass murderer is catergorised as one who murders four or more people at one location during one continuous period of time). Similarily, a mass murderer is not necessarily a terrorist as they may often not have an anterior motive and simply kill their family (sociopaths).
Terrorism presupposes a political agenda against a state or a people. An act of terrorism would therefore be destruction of property and intentional harming of people (the latter is often done without prejudice).
This raises further questions about this case assuming the two men were indeed politically motivated (which still has to be determined but would seem highly unusual if they were not). If they are classed as terrorists, who has jurisdiction? Ordinarily, one would assume that the city of Boston or the State of Massachusetts would claim such. However, is there a case for the Federal Government to claim jusrisdiction? If that is so, could the surviving member of the two brothers be classed as an 'enemy combatant' even if it cannot be proven that he is a member of a state (group) with whom the US is at war? This would seem extremely shady as he could be denied legal councel. So, which one is it?
In terms of law, this might well turn out to be quite interesting.
Quid
Despite it being a seemingly minor point, I shall have to respectfully disagree in parts with my German friend. Whilst there is no proper definition to be found on terrorism (none internationally recognised), the threat of harming a populace and destroying property is often enough for one to be classed a terrorist. In other words, one need not be a mass murderer to be a terrorist (mass murderer is catergorised as one who murders four or more people at one location during one continuous period of time). Similarily, a mass murderer is not necessarily a terrorist as they may often not have an anterior motive and simply kill their family (sociopaths).
Terrorism presupposes a political agenda against a state or a people. An act of terrorism would therefore be destruction of property and intentional harming of people (the latter is often done without prejudice).
This raises further questions about this case assuming the two men were indeed politically motivated (which still has to be determined but would seem highly unusual if they were not). If they are classed as terrorists, who has jurisdiction? Ordinarily, one would assume that the city of Boston or the State of Massachusetts would claim such. However, is there a case for the Federal Government to claim jusrisdiction? If that is so, could the surviving member of the two brothers be classed as an 'enemy combatant' even if it cannot be proven that he is a member of a state (group) with whom the US is at war? This would seem extremely shady as he could be denied legal councel. So, which one is it?
In terms of law, this might well turn out to be quite interesting.
Quid
I intentionally didn't look up the definitions but my point was not just about those and more about the level of escalation this causes. Why should the federal government throw a fit and attack other countries, restrict the populace more and whatnot simply because a guy who did something horrible had a political motive? And the mafia also works against the US government, there are gangs who have street shootouts with governments agents, yet noone ever sends in the drones even though they could be classified as enemy combatants since they belong to an organization that does not follow US laws and shoots at government officials. Terrorists do what they do for private enrichment just like mafiosi do, it's just one wants to enrich his soul and the other his wallet (which he only wants to enrich his soul in the end...). The RAF in Germany and the IRA in Britain/Ireland are classed as terrorist organizations and are/were being fought by police. If that is only because they are citizens of their respective countries then this case is clear because the only surviving Boston bomber is a US citizen as well...
I'm obviously not a state lawyer or know anything about these laws, I'm just saying how I see it and that I may just disagree with the definitions modern politicians use because IMO they use some of them for shady reasons.
For it to be terrorism they would have to be backed by something/someone. From what the FBI got so far it were probably fairly harmless guys pulling of a stunt
Rhyfelwyr
04-21-2013, 14:37
It seems that the lone wolf is the new face of terrorism in the Western world.
Whether or not you treat terrorists differently from other criminals depends on whether or not you regard them as having any sort of legitimacy. Hence why Thatcher enraged so many people by refusing to give IRA prisoners special status or privileges in prison.
I intentionally didn't look up the definitions but my point was not just about those and more about the level of escalation this causes. Why should the federal government throw a fit and attack other countries, restrict the populace more and whatnot simply because a guy who did something horrible had a political motive? And the mafia also works against the US government, there are gangs who have street shootouts with governments agents, yet noone ever sends in the drones even though they could be classified as enemy combatants since they belong to an organization that does not follow US laws and shoots at government officials. Terrorists do what they do for private enrichment just like mafiosi do, it's just one wants to enrich his soul and the other his wallet (which he only wants to enrich his soul in the end...). The RAF in Germany and the IRA in Britain/Ireland are classed as terrorist organizations and are/were being fought by police. If that is only because they are citizens of their respective countries then this case is clear because the only surviving Boston bomber is a US citizen as well...
I'm obviously not a state lawyer or know anything about these laws, I'm just saying how I see it and that I may just disagree with the definitions modern politicians use because IMO they use some of them for shady reasons.
With this I agree with you, old horse. However, I cannot possibly see this escalating into more than a short fit of argumentation pro and contra trying this fellow either locally of federally. This might hinge on the point of him being seen as either a terrorist or simply as a murderer.
The point you are making about enrichment of the 'soul or the pocket' does not impact this decision and is only a minorly related topic into which I shall not indulge but with which I could potentially agree.
Quid
For it to be terrorism they would have to be backed by something/someone. From what the FBI got so far it were probably fairly harmless guys pulling of a stunt
uhm...no, for it to be terrorism it has to be ideologically motivated, you can have a lone wolf terrorist.
and another thing - a pressure cooker filled with gunpowder and ball bearings is a WMD now??
the invasion of Iraq makes more sense now.
HopAlongBunny
04-23-2013, 06:13
It seems he will be tried as a plain old civilian mass murderer:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/23/us-usa-explosions-boston-status-idUSBRE93L1B720130423
Which likely means that wet dreams of an invasion of Chechnya will be frustrated. Too bad, it seemed a natural after Afghanistan/Iraq.
Are civilian mass murderers always tried at a federal level? I thought he's being tried at a federal level with charges of terrorism and faces a death sentence. That being important since if he were tried in Massachussetts, there'd be no death sentence.
On the radio here I understood Obama specifically managed something so the guy could face the death sentence instead of life imprisonment but I also heard that's pretty normal and couldn't find any further evidence, maybe they misrepresented it on the radio or I misunderstood?
As for the WMD thing, that means Obama drops WMDs in Pakistan. Also he killed two people and wounded a lot more but if someone shoots 20 children in a school and wounds two dozen more, does that mean he will from now on also get charged with using a WMD?
On the other hand, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a bomb, are good people with bombs, no?
Not that he doesn't deserve death-penalty, but altering something after the crime is a big no, pretty bad if that's true.
HopAlongBunny
04-23-2013, 09:56
My understanding is that he is being tried for a federal crime; the prosecutors have to determine whether they will seek the death penalty or not.
I think it's the use of WMD's that elevates this to a federal crime.
HopAlongBunny
04-23-2013, 10:05
On the other hand, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a bomb, are good people with bombs, no?
Yes, and since anyone who really wants a bomb will find one, regulating bombs simply does not make sense.
Motive is in, motivation was indeed islam. He and his brother had some sort of breakdown and radicalised.
Dafuk? Charged with use of weapons of mass destruction? Off to Norway with ya to learn how to deal with tragedy. Despite what Breivik did the justice department kept a clear head, no greater revenge than an honest trial
HopAlongBunny
04-23-2013, 10:41
It was those darn Caucasians!
I think it's the use of WMD's that elevates this to a federal crime.
Maybe that's what they were talking about on the radio, that Obama encouraged to charge him with use of a WMD.
Interesting article about that here (http://theweek.com/article/index/243109/why-the-boston-marathon-bombs-are-considered-weapons-of-mass-destruction).
And more (http://swampland.time.com/2013/04/22/dont-panic-if-the-boston-bomber-is-charged-with-wmd-use/).
Apparently they applied the same charge to Timothy McVeigh, but then again his bomb was apparently much larger.
We can only hope the government uses drones to find such terrorists faster in the future.
Ohohoh, that's a slipup of Obama. I understand that people are sad and angry but you shouldn't always take that into consideration. In the end these are radicalised amateurs not proffessional terrorists
Fisherking
04-23-2013, 12:05
12 person Sleeper Cell?
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/fbi-looking-terrorist-sleeper-cell-connected-boston-bombing-suspects-tamerlan-and
Also, the Police reported the kid ran over his brothers body. But an eye witness reported the police ran over the guy with an SUV, then shot him some more.
How do you feel about that, if it is true?
ICantSpellDawg
04-23-2013, 13:16
12 person Sleeper Cell?
http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/fbi-looking-terrorist-sleeper-cell-connected-boston-bombing-suspects-tamerlan-and
Also, the Police reported the kid ran over his brothers body. But an eye witness reported the police ran over the guy with an SUV, then shot him some more.
How do you feel about that, if it is true?
If the police ran over the kid and subsequently shot him while incapacitated, then lied about the sequence of events - those officers involved should be suspended and the ones responsible should be charged with excessive force. No one should get away with bloodlust and conspiracy to suppress evidence.
ICantSpellDawg
04-23-2013, 13:26
I'm astounded at the harping of the media on the Chechen connection here. It has nothing to do with anything. Someone's ethnic backgroun means very little. I'd expect that Tamerlan has spent as much time in Chechnya as I have in Ireland, I doubt that Johar has ever been. These kids are from central Asia, not the Caucasus. They were raised as far away from Chechnya as New York is from San Francisco, maybe further. These guys are kyrghyz/kazak and would share feelings of global, rather than the traditional Chechen regional, jihad. The countries that they were from were Islamic countries, not repressed enclaves within Russia.
But the media plays up the Chechen aspect,even though it makes no sense and the kids are unlikely to have ever been closer to that region than Machakala, Dagestan.
Seamus Fermanagh
04-23-2013, 13:34
I'm astounded at the harping of the media on the Chechen connection here. It has nothing to do with anything. Someone's ethnic backgroun means very little. I'd expect that Tamerlan has spent as much time in Chechnya as I have in Ireland, I doubt that Johar has ever been. These kids are from central Asia, not the Caucasus. They were raised as far away from Chechnya as New York is from San Francisco, maybe further. These guys are kyrghyz/kazak and would share feelings of global, rather than the traditional Chechen regional, jihad. The countries that they were from were Islamic countries, not repressed enclaves within Russia.
But the media plays up the Chechen aspect,even though it makes no sense and the kids are unlikely to have ever been closer to that region than Machakala, Dagestan.
Mantra Number One of media reporting = sell more advertising
Mantra Number Two of media reporting = focus on the "conflict" that is at the center of the issue
So, RUSSIA involved is obviously a bigger conflict ramification than Uzbekistan. If there is any such connector, you report that.
Fisherking
04-23-2013, 13:55
I searched around and found this report: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sjmjZjssnk
I doubt many people care how the guy died and it saves the state the cost of a trial.
I doubt that any more gets said on the topic.
But to me, no matter how big a scumbag he was the police should not be judge, jury, and executioner.
If they lie about one thing how do you believe them on anything else?
Strike For The South
04-23-2013, 16:23
oh my.
That's not a "report". That's a single eyewitness, who are notoriously unreliable.
Hooahguy
04-23-2013, 17:37
I searched around and found this report: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sjmjZjssnk
I doubt many people care how the guy died and it saves the state the cost of a trial.
I doubt that any more gets said on the topic.
But to me, no matter how big a scumbag he was the police should not be judge, jury, and executioner.
If they lie about one thing how do you believe them on anything else?
I dont know where I saw it but I remember reading that it was the younger brother who was driving that SUV. The police were arresting the older brother when the younger one got in the police SUV and drove straight at the police who were arresting the older brother, hitting him. The police were able to dive away in time.
Ibn-Khaldun
04-23-2013, 21:30
I found an interesting page on this bombing: http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU
Also, I find it funny that from some Americans don't make a difference between Chechens and Czechs (as I've seen in some news).
Papewaio
04-23-2013, 21:43
Well lessons learned last week were:
1) It is always bigger in Texas "That ain't a fertiliser bomb, this is."
2) Unregulated and unenforced capitalism is more dangerous then terrorism. Greed trumps maliciousness.
Strike For The South
04-23-2013, 22:38
I found an interesting page on this bombing: http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU
Also, I find it funny that from some Americans don't make a difference between Chechens and Czechs (as I've seen in some news).
Congress did not pass CISPA
Distracted by Texas? So the plant was playing the long game?
a completely inoffensive name
04-24-2013, 03:20
Congress did not pass CISPA
Distracted by Texas? So the plant was playing the long game?
Dude the vast majority of those images came straight from the most retarded of 4chan users in /pol/. It's quite astounding how far the 4chan image dumps were shared on the internet. Hell, half of Reddit tried joining in to catch the bombers before the FBI released pictures.
HopAlongBunny
04-24-2013, 06:15
Good article from those terrorists over at AlJazeera:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/04/201342312124223136.html
Major Robert Dump
04-24-2013, 20:21
I bet that dead terrorist feels dumb because he could have not bombed Boston and just claimed responsibility for the fertilizer plant
Strike For The South
04-24-2013, 23:09
Good article from those terrorists over at AlJazeera:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/04/201342312124223136.html
Yes we know this. It's also a bit rich that same outlets that create this climate of fear turn right around and rap us on the nose for being scared.
"Terrorists" over at Al Jezerra? I swear to Christ you people meet Americans in your head and look no further.
Stop posting
Major Robert Dump
04-25-2013, 00:09
Yes we know this. It's also a bit rich that same outlets that create this climate of fear turn right around and rap us on the nose for being scared.
"Terrorists" over at Al Jezerra? I swear to Christ you people meet Americans in your head and look no further.
Stop posting
Al Jareeza are terrorists, have you ever seen their ad prices?????
Kadagar_AV
04-25-2013, 00:53
Yes we know this. It's also a bit rich that same outlets that create this climate of fear turn right around and rap us on the nose for being scared.
"Terrorists" over at Al Jezerra? I swear to Christ you people meet Americans in your head and look no further.
Stop posting
Oh? I took it for granted he was sarcastic.
But with people these days...
Papewaio
04-25-2013, 04:39
Sarcasm in the Backroom! Say it isn't so.
HopAlongBunny
04-25-2013, 05:05
Sarcasm!? I prefer the appellation "ironic".
I found it ironic that Aj was one of the few news outlets during the Dubyah regime that at least (usually) got the facts right; alas they were "outside the bubble" hence in league with shady ppl.
It is a continuing irony that they remain a decent source of news and analysis while the "real" news outlets continue to spew crap :p
a completely inoffensive name
04-25-2013, 11:15
I found it ironic that Aj was one of the few news outlets during the Dubyah regime that at least (usually) got the facts right; alas they were "outside the bubble" hence in league with shady ppl.
No one believed that except the insane conservatives. It was just slander from the Bush Administration to reduce the credibility of their reporting. That's why Strike claimed you people meet Americans in your head and look no further because you obviously haven't talked to many if any real Americans.
It's as if someone came in here and said "Here is a news article from those "liberal jews", the washington post." As if the Nixon Administration's attacks on unfavorable media were in anyway indicative of the public consensus.
That's why Strike claimed you people meet Americans in your head and look no further because you obviously haven't talked to many if any real Americans.
That is kinda the sad truth really. Any European who claims that Europeans don't like looking down on Americans is lying. I have never understood it really
Greyblades
04-25-2013, 14:06
We like looking down on america half because we are jealous of your current dominance and half because we are dismayed at the crap job you are doing at what used to be our schtick, professional pride and all that. Also we find it hilarious that the front runners and main backers of democracy and free capitalism are now having it bite them in the arse big time.
Tellos Athenaios
04-25-2013, 20:37
No one believed that except the insane conservatives. It was just slander from the Bush Administration to reduce the credibility of their reporting. That's why Strike claimed you people meet Americans in your head and look no further because you obviously haven't talked to many if any real Americans.
It's as if someone came in here and said "Here is a news article from those "liberal jews", the washington post." As if the Nixon Administration's attacks on unfavorable media were in anyway indicative of the public consensus.
“Nobody except the insane conservatives.” Well that narrows down the population nicely. I suggest you reread the Al-Jazeera article, and then contemplate the simple absolute certainty with which a Romney presidency was expected by quite a few Americans. Deluded or insane. As an American who supposedly has talked to quite a few Americans and therefore is eminently qualified to make that call, you be the judge of that.
That is kinda the sad truth really. Any European who claims that Europeans don't like looking down on Americans is lying. I have never understood it really
For that matter, any American who claims that Americans don't like looking down on Americans is most definitely lying, too. Americans everywhere look down on Mississippi which at times seems to exist solely for the benefit of making Alabama and others feel a bit better about themselves. And then there is Florida. ~;)
Papewaio
04-25-2013, 21:58
I think you will find that they start them young in the EU. It is at primary and high school that they teach them how they screwed up the world. Just look at England, to wave the flag is seen as a facist gesture.
Greyblades
04-25-2013, 22:39
Oh please, as if we had enough self esteem to teach our kids of thier history. As far as britain's children know the 17-1900's was a period where nothing happened except for the american slave trade's end, the boring parts of the industrial revolution and, if they are lucky, the fact that napoleon existed.
Give it a century, a world scale war or two, (with the way america's leaders are devolving, such is a certainty) and america will join us in the club of undeserved self loathing and denial.
Kadagar_AV
04-25-2013, 23:38
NEWSFLASH: I'm not sure if this has reached international media...
But according to objective and reliable sources (their mother) the bombers are innocent. The whole thing of actual bombs is also a hoax.
She NAILED IT :rolleyes:
Or, well, technically their father did. Ill advised IMHO.
Rhyfelwyr
04-26-2013, 00:11
Yes the parents are coming across as being a bit bizarre in the videos.
Apparently they believe that an Armenian convert to Islam that was friends with their sons has somehow framed them.
The parents (or at least the mother, it's only her I've seen being interviewed) don't seem to show any remorse for the victims of the bombings.
It's hard to gauge much from them since they are probably not thinking very rationally at the minute, but I have found their reaction strange.
ICantSpellDawg
04-26-2013, 01:56
What is up with all of the dropping f-bombs lately in the forums? Its a waste of letters and detracts from your argument. Pointlessness and against forum guidelines, unless I'm missing new rules somewhere.
What is up with all of the dropping f-bombs lately in the forums? Its a waste of letters and detracts from your argument. Pointlessness and against forum guidelines, unless I'm missing new rules somewhere.
I don't see any, but I am guilty of doing it sometimes I don't think about it when I do
ICantSpellDawg
04-26-2013, 12:35
ACIN has been doing it a lot lately, in numerous threads and I've reported them because I am a jerk.
HopAlongBunny
04-26-2013, 14:03
A somewhat wider discussion of civilian casualties:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2013/04/19/how-can-we-condemn-boston-murders-but-excuse-u-s-bombing-of-civilians/
Which leaves open the question of how to stop the cycle of violence.
Greyblades
04-26-2013, 17:21
Complete and utter extermination of the other side and any who sympathise.
Sure, one side mighty collectively decide to not take revenge, but what are the chances of that?
Seamus Fermanagh
04-26-2013, 19:42
Complete and utter extermination of the other side and any who sympathise....
Yes, this approach can work, as the city fathers of Carthage might attest, but it can be a costly resolution process. Moreover, it tends to function poorly if there is not a significant power imbalance.
Strike For The South
04-26-2013, 20:59
So CISPA looks like it's DOA.
Looks like the government should have killed more people
For having the ability to commit such sinister conspiracies we really lack on the follow through.
Most of you are brain dead idiots and I pray everynight for happiness to elude you
Good day
Montmorency
04-26-2013, 21:09
What is happiness (to you)?
Strike For The South
04-26-2013, 21:22
loose women, copious amounts of alcohol, and your silence.
Montmorency
04-26-2013, 22:14
That's boring.
Get a life.
Strike For The South
04-26-2013, 22:27
Not to me.
RESPECT ME AS A PERSON
Kadagar_AV
04-26-2013, 22:38
So CISPA looks like it's DOA.
Looks like the government should have killed more people
For having the ability to commit such sinister conspiracies we really lack on the follow through.
Most of you are brain dead idiots and I pray everynight for happiness to elude you
Good day
Not to me.
RESPECT ME AS A PERSON
... Why?
a completely inoffensive name
04-27-2013, 00:50
ACIN has been doing it a lot lately, in numerous threads and I've reported them because I am a jerk.
heuhuehuehuehuehueuhe
HopAlongBunny
04-27-2013, 02:06
Complete and utter extermination of the other side and any who sympathise.
Essentially "make a desert and call it peace" (Tacitus) Crude but effective, not to mention expensive.
Is a compassionate response possible? What would it look like?
I have no answers to this, but I am interested in ideas.
Not to me.
RESPECT ME AS A PERSON
We aren't angry, just a little dissapointed
Greyblades
04-27-2013, 03:06
What would it look like?
One side is persuaded to agree unanimously to extend an olive branch and the other is persaded to unanimously accept it, and both sides let the anymosity drop. That's basically the only way it would work without needing a new enemy to direct feelings of hatred away from the two groups, getting them to express thier anymosity in a non damaging way, or killing one of the sides. It is nigh impossible to pull off on the national stage and you'd have to do it to every single conflict still ongoing.
There are some scenarios that have been thought up in stories where one person or group gains the ire of every group in existance to the point where they eclipse any disagreement between the groups, then this pariah dies or commits suicide and the ire dies with him leaving a world that had been so enamoured with hatred for the pariah they have forgotten the hatred they had for eachother. Unfortunately it assumes that everyone will just get along in the aftermath, when most people left to thier own devices will most likely just end up starting new hatreds and in those stories the only guy who was smart enough to have a chance of keeping it in check is probably the same guy who died cleaning the slate.
HopAlongBunny
04-27-2013, 04:13
There are some scenarios that have been thought up in stories where one person or group gains the ire of every group in existance to the point where they eclipse any disagreement between the groups, then this pariah dies or commits suicide and the ire dies with him leaving a world that had been so enamoured with hatred for the pariah they have forgotten the hatred they had for eachother. Unfortunately it assumes that everyone will just get along in the aftermath, when most people left to thier own devices will most likely just end up starting new hatreds and in those stories the only guy who was smart enough to have a chance of keeping it in check is probably the same guy who died cleaning the slate.
That sounds oddly like Rene Girard's concept of the "scapegoat"; hardly a clean way out of the cycle of violence insofar as it requires violence to fuse the disagreeing/competing groups. As you say, peace will last only long enough for the "allies" to turn on each other. Repeat ad infinitum.
LittleGrizzly
04-27-2013, 04:39
It is an impossible dream... even if the practicalities of it fall apart after the event I just don't know that it could ever even get to that point...
Just as two quick examples what would you have to do to get the Palestinians to hate the enemy so much they would work with Israel to fix a problem?
Also the Chechens with the Russians?
There is a nice scene in Independance day where you see the Palestinians and the Israelis working together (just a quick shot) but in reality even in these dire circumstances I expect plenty of nutters would be happy to see the world end on the basis their enemies will die as well...
TBH even speaking as a rich* educated* westerner who has had a nice lifestyle (and isn't religious) I can quite easily imagine situations where me (or me and my people) are treated so badly by others that I would be happy for humanity to be wiped out on the basis it means they will suffer just as much as me rather than the present unfair situation where we are punished and they live in relative peace.
*That is in comparison to those living in very harsh places, I am not particularly rich for a westerner (in fact the opposite) and my education does not greatly exceed the state minimums.
HopAlongBunny
04-27-2013, 05:00
I would say the Palestinians "need" the Israeli's and vice versa. The fear of the other fuses the unity of each group; much like the US/USSR before the collapse of the USSR.
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