!! Ancient Pre Elami Civilization !!

[Empire*Of*Media]

Proto-Elamite

The Proto-Elamite period is the time of ca. 3400 BC to 2700 BC when Susa, the later capital of the Elamites, began to receive influence from the cultures of the Iranian plateau. In archaeological terms this corresponds to the late Banesh period. This civilization is recognized as the oldest in Iran and Kurdistan and was largely contemporary with its neighbour, Sumerian civilization (Another Kurdish Civilization), the oldest in the world, which began around 3400 BC.

The Proto-Elamite script is an Early Bronze Age writing system briefly in use before the introduction of Elamite Cuneiform.
9194 Clay tokens, from Susa, Uruk period, circa 3500 BC. Department of Oriental Antiquities, Louvre.

During the period 8000–3700 BC, the Fertile Crescent witnessed the spread of small settlements supported by agricultural surplus. Geometric tokens emerged to be used to manage stewardship of this surplus.[1] The earliest tokens now known are those from two sites in the Zagros (Kurdistan-Luristan Now) region of Iran: Tepe Asiab and Ganj-i-Dareh Tepe.

The Mesopotamian civilization emerged during the period 3700–2900 BC amid the development of technological innovations such as the plough, sailing boats and copper metal working. Clay tablets with pictographic characters appeared in this period to record commercial transactions performed by the temples.

9195 Tablet with numeric signs and script. From Teppe Sialk, Susa, Uruk period (3200 BC to 2700 BC). Department of Oriental Antiquities, Louvre.

Besides Susa, one important Proto-Elamite site is Teppe Sialk, where the only remaining Proto-Elamite ziggurat is still seen. Texts in the undeciphered Proto-Elamite script found in Susa are dated to this period. It is thought that the Proto-Elamites were in fact Elamites (Elamite speakers), because of the many cultural similarities (for example, the building of ziggurats), and because no large-scale migration to this area seems to have occurred between the Proto-Elamite period and the later Elamites. But because their script is yet to be deciphered, this theory remains uncertain.

Some anthropologists, such as John Alden, maintain that Proto-Elamite influence grew rapidly at the end of the 4th millennium BC and declined equally rapidly with the establishment of maritime trade in the Persian Gulf several centuries later.

Proto-Elamite pottery dating back to the last half of the 5th millennium BC has been found in Sialk, where Proto-Elamite writing, the first form of writing in Iran, has been found on tablets of this date. The first cylinder seals come from the Proto-Elamite period, as well.

9196 Proto-Elamite script
Economic tablet with numeric signs. Proto-Elamite script in clay, Susa, Uruk period (3200 BC to 2700 BC). Department of Oriental Antiquities, Louvre.

It is uncertain whether the Proto-Elamite script may be considered the direct predecessor of Linear Elamite. Both scripts remain largely undeciphered, and it is mere speculation to postulate a relationship between the two.

A few Proto-Elamite signs seem either to be loans from the slightly older proto-cuneiform (Late Uruk) tablets of Mesopotamia, or perhaps more likely, to share a common origin. Whereas proto-cuneiform is written in visual hierarchies, Proto-Elamite is written in an in-line style: numerical signs follow the objects they count; some non-numerical signs are 'images' of the objects they represent, although the majority are entirely abstract.

Proto-Elamite was used for a brief period around 3000 BC, or Jemdet Nasr in Mesopotamia-Kurdistan Of Iraq), whereas Linear Elamite is attested for a similarly brief period in the last quarter of the 3rd millennium BC.

Proponents of an Elamo-Dravidian relationship have looked for similarities between the Proto-Elamite and the Indus script.

Inscription corpus

The Proto-Elamite writing system was used over a very large geographical area, stretching from Susa in the west, to Tepe Yahya in the east, and perhaps beyond. The known corpus of inscriptions consists of some 1600 tablets, the vast majority unearthed at Susa.

Proto-Elamite tablets have been found at the following sites (in order of number of tablets recovered):

Susa (more than 1500 tablets)
Malyan (more than 30 tablets)
Tepe Yahya (27 tablets)
Sialk (22 tablets)
Jiroft (two tablets)
Ozbaki (one tablet)
Shahr-i-Shokhta (one tablet)

None of the inscribed objects from Ghazir, Chogha Mish or Hissar can be verified as Proto-Elamite; the tablets from Ghazir and Choga Mish are Uruk IV style or numerical tablets, whereas the Hissar object cannot be classified at present. The majority of the Sialk tablets are also not proto-Elamite, strictly speaking, but belong to the period of close contact between Mesopotamia and Iran, presumably corresponding to Uruk V - IV.
Decipherment attempts

Although Proto-Elamite remains undeciphered, the content of many texts is known. This is possible because certain signs, and in particular a majority of the numerical signs, are similar to the neighboring Mesopotamian writing system, proto-cuneiform. In addition, a number of the proto-Elamite signs are actual images of the objects they represent. However, the majority of the proto-Elamite signs are entirely abstract, and their meanings can only be deciphered through careful graphotactical analysis.

While the Elamite language has been suggested as a likely candidate underlying the Proto-Elamite inscriptions, there is no positive evidence of this. The earliest Proto-Elamite inscriptions, being purely ideographical, do not in fact contain any linguistic information, and following Friberg's 1978/79 study of Ancient Near Eastern metrology, decipherment attempts have moved away from linguistic methods.

In 2012, Dr Jacob Dahl of the Faculty of Oriental Studies, University of Oxford, announced a project to make high-quality images of Proto-Elamite clay tablets and publish them online. His hope is that crowdsourcing by academics and amateurs working together would be able to understand the script within two years, despite the presence of mistakes and the lack of phonetic clues.

Still Much of This Civilization Remains unknown because of many destruction due to invasion of many to Iranian Plateau & Mesopotamia and looting pillaging and plundering by them. And The Researches & Excavation Still Even Has not been reached to 40% because of the current political situation.

References
WIKIPEDIA
^ a b Salvador Carmona & Mahmoud Ezzamel:Accounting And Forms Of Accountability In Ancient Civilizations: Mesopotamia And Ancient Egypt, IE Business School, IE Working Paper WP05-21, 2005), p.6 [1]
^ http://en.finaly.org/index.php/Two_precursors_of_writing:_plain_and_complex_tokens
^ "The Habib Anavian Collection: Iranian Art from the 5th Millennium B.C. to the 7th Century A.D.". website of the Anavian Gallery, New York. Retrieved 22 October 2012.
^ Gnanadesikan, Amalia (2008). The Writing Revolution: Cuneiform to the Internet. Blackwell. p. 25. ISBN 978-1444304688.
^ Hock, Hans Heinrich (2nd edition 2009). Language History, Language Change, and Language Relationship: An Introduction to Historical and Comparative Linguistics. Mouton de Gruyter. p. 69. ISBN 978-3110214291.
^ David McAlpin: "Linguistic prehistory: the Dravidian situation", in Madhav M. Deshpande and Peter Edwin Hook: Aryan and Non-Aryan in India, p.175-189
^ Coughlan, Sean (2012-10-25). "Breakthrough in world's oldest undeciphered writing". The "Reflectance Transformation Imaging System" from Oxford University in use at the Louvre Museum to obtain enhanced images of the writing (BBC News Online). Retrieved 2013-02-07.

Literature

Jacob L. Dahl, "Complex Graphemes in Proto-Elamite," in Cuneiform Digital Library Journal (CDLJ) 2005:3. Download a PDF copy
Peter Damerow, “The Origins of Writing as a Problem of Historical Epistemology,” in Cuneiform Digital Library Journal (CDLJ) 2006:1. Download a PDF copy
Peter Damerow and Robert K. Englund, The Proto-Elamite Texts from Tepe Yahya (= The American School of Prehistoric Research Bulletin 39; Cambridge, MA, 1989).
Robert H. Dyson, “Early Work on the Acropolis at Susa. The Beginning of Prehistory in Iraq and Iran,” Expedition 10/4 (1968) 21-34.
Robert K. Englund, “The State of Decipherment of Proto-Elamite,” in: Stephen Houston, ed. The First Writing: Script Invention as History and Process (2004). Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, pp. 100–149. Download a PDF copy
Jöran Friberg, The Third Millennium Roots of Babylonian Mathematics I-II (Göteborg, 1978/79).
A. Le Brun, “Recherches stratigraphiques a l’acropole de Suse, 1969-1971,” in Cahiers de la Délégation archaéologique Française en Iran 1 (= CahDAFI 1; Paris, 1971) 163 – 216.
Piero Meriggi, La scritura proto-elamica. Parte Ia: La scritura e il contenuto dei testi (Rome, 1971).
Piero Meriggi, La scritura proto-elamica. Parte IIa: Catalogo dei segni (Rome, 1974).
Piero Meriggi, La scritura proto-elamica. Parte IIIa: Testi (Rome, 1974).
Daniel T. Potts, The Archaeology of Elam (Cambridge, UK, 1999).




I think, Europe only focuses on Ancient Greece History and do not desire much to know more about Oriental Civilizations and will cause Great Ancient Oriental & Africas & Americas Civilizations remaining unknown!! maybe because European & American Archeologist think only ancient civilizations for their Europe is Ancient Greece and Have no other!! its time to know not only we had Great Civilizations older than Ancient Greece but to know BETTER CIVILIZATIONS than Ancient Greece & Hellenics !!

[Strike For The South]

Dat copy paste

[Hax]

He had me at "Sumerians, an other Kurdish civilisation".

[Empire*Of*Media]

Dat copy paste

you want me to bring history by myself !!!???
i bring from trusted References !!

[Empire*Of*Media]

He had me at "Sumerians, an other Kurdish civilisation".

Yes it is !
actually The One Word KURD now has came from many paople that time !!
Sumerians - Pre Elamies - Guties - Mitannies - Mannaeans - Lullubians - Elamies (or Ilam now) - Medya (Media) - Karduchians (Kardochians by Xenophon's).
The Kurds does not mean a one united country or nation in ancient times !! even now The KURDISH Language Consist of Many Dialects & Many Many Accents !!
The Kurdish Dialects now are : 1 Northern Kurmanji (32 Million Speakers)- 2 South Kurmanji (Sorani) (15 Million Speakers) - 3 South Kurmanji (Kalhori-Laki-Fayli) (4-5 Million Speakers) - 5 Gurani (Gorani) & Zaza (Unknown - Estimately 5-6 Million) !!!!
Kurdish Language Is The Most Wealthies & Richest Languages in in a row of Indian Languages & Dialects !!

[Strike For The South]

I enjoy your zeal

[Empire*Of*Media]

Its always nice to see that blatant ethnocentrism isn't restricted to us white people.

yes, in fact, the people are habited to know about things that are known, they only full consentrate on only and only Greeks and Romans(because Europe only had them while in China & Mesopotamia & incas & India &..... we had greater and better and wealthier civilizations!)

[Empire*Of*Media]

I don't think what you think that meant is actually what it meant.

so ... What ?!! excuse me, my english its not perfect !!

[The Lurker Below]

yes, in fact, the people are habited to know about things that are known, they only full consentrate on only and only Greeks and Romans(because Europe only had them while in China & Mesopotamia & incas & India &..... we had greater and better and wealthier civilizations!)

Don't forget Malay, Japanese, Carribe, and Mayan. Evil Western Capitalist Pigs don't know anything about those ancient, wealthy, great civilizations either. The Westerners focus on Greeks and Romans might be because their traditional customs and laws come directly from those civilizations, or it could just be blatant ethnocentrism.

[Hax]

And the moment we do focus on areas outside of the "west", we're branded orientalists and imperialists.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Don't forget Malay, Japanese, Carribe, and Mayan. Evil Western Capitalist Pigs don't know anything about those ancient, wealthy, great civilizations either. The Westerners focus on Greeks and Romans might be because their traditional customs and laws come directly from those civilizations, or it could just be blatant ethnocentrism.

Yes Exactly !! that was i wanted to tell indeed !! Thank you !! And Please spread against this habits and false thoughts! because if i do they call me Paranoid !!!! you know, ignorant and obstinated & hatred people are too many in the org and the World !!

And the moment we do focus on areas outside of the "west", we're branded orientalists and imperialists.

Being Orientalists is a proud !!
i havent seen a major and known Focus OUTSIDE OF WEST!! some Respected Germans & Russians did, but dont know who, doesnt let them be known in the world!!! because its not in their favorite !! and no one tells to someone out of imperialistic thoughts as "Imperialists" Bro !!! How you think like that !!

[Conradus]

Yes Exactly !! that was i wanted to tell indeed !! Thank you !!



Being Orientalists is a proud !!
i havent seen a major and known Focus OUTSIDE OF WEST!! some Respected Germans & Russians did, but dont know who, doesnt let them be known in the world!!! because its not in their favorite !! and no one tells to someone out of imperialistic thoughts as "Imperialists" Bro !!! How you think like that !!

You really should learn to see the sarcasm in other people's posts. The second sentence in The Lurker Below's post was a dead giveaway.
Western 'obsession' with ancient Greeks and Romans comes from the fact that they are the basis of our traditions and laws. Most of European law dates directly back to Roman law. Any educated person in the West will know that there have been a great many other advanced societies, but they had very little influence on Europe or the US. That's why there's less focus on them.

[Hax]

i havent seen a major and known Focus OUTSIDE OF WEST!! some Respected Germans & Russians did, but dont know who, doesnt let them be known in the world!!! because its not in their favorite !! and no one tells to someone out of imperialistic thoughts as "Imperialists" Bro !!! How you think like that !!

You're thinking of Wehr and Nöldeke, to name two. As for other orientalists, English, Dutch, and French: Lane, Arberry, Dozy, de Sacy?

[Kralizec]

"Kurdish" as an ethnic name doesn't appear before the Islamic age.

I always think it's a bit silly when modern Greeks brag about their ancestor's history of 2000+ years in the past, but doing the same with a civilization that has been extinct for twice that long (Sumerian) takes the cake.

No doubt that there's some Sumerian and Elamite heritage among Kurds. And among the Iraqi Arabs. And the Iranians.
:coffeenews:

PS: Assyria was more civilized and way cooler than any of the civilizations you guys mentioned.

[Empire*Of*Media]

You're thinking of Wehr and Nöldeke, to name two. As for other orientalists, English, Dutch, and French: Lane, Arberry, Dozy, de Sacy?

yes but not all. Girtschmann - Gunther Deschner - Vladmir Minorsky - Diyakonov & .....many other that i dont remember thier name !


"Kurdish" as an ethnic name doesn't appear before the Islamic age.

I always think it's a bit silly when modern Greeks brag about their ancestor's history of 2000+ years in the past, but doing the same with a civilization that has been extinct for twice that long (Sumerian) takes the cake.

No doubt that there's some Sumerian and Elamite heritage among Kurds. And among the Iraqi Arabs. And the Iranians.
:coffeenews:

PS: Assyria was more civilized and way cooler than any of the civilizations you guys mentioned.

Assyria was after the sumerians, so it should be more advanced but sumerians and Elamies were the first civilizations in pre-history & history.

and actually yes. the word KURD is after Islam, but i said, that word is a modern word for somehow claiming united ethnics of kurd, ancient kurds were so parted and not United,even after islam (Except the MADAI or medes), despite various dialect differences and some society difference, while that was because of not being united through history, but all tell themselves kurd, even when i barely understand the Northern Kurmanji Kurds(Kurdistan of Turkey) or other dialects, but all of us believe that we are KURD and differences was not made by ours, so the more united KURDISH is after the Republic of Mahabad, when the kurds so long after the Madai again thought they could be united under kurdish banner. so the Sumerian and Hurrian and Elamyans Heritage is Kurdish Heritage, not like Turks that invaded and usurpationed there and claimed their ancestor land!!

and i have some proofs that USA wants to bring the Imperialistic New World Order to middle east and refresh the old Imperialistic British New World Order, in better shape, that KURDISTAN will be Independent and free. i hope so !!

[Empire*Of*Media]

i wanted to make this thread at top again so i want to write the second one The Elami Civilization ......

Thanks for your advertency.......

[Buzghush]

An Epic Thread! Lol'd so hard.

[Myth]

May I suggest using a typeface other than Comic Sans? Might make it a bit easier to read.

[Empire*Of*Media]

May I suggest using a typeface other than Comic Sans? Might make it a bit easier to read.

Sure friend......i thought Comic Font is fun to be read...
but if you think something else is better im very delighted to do what you suggest....but consider the Public's interest too

[Kadagar_AV]

May I suggest using a typeface other than Comic Sans? Might make it a bit easier to read.

I, for one, think the Comic nailed it.

[Fragony]

I forgot the exact term, but in ancient times the later Sumerian Kings were called 'Kings from Sumer to [forgot this one, don't have it at hand]', at least suggesting that they ruled over seperate civilisations. Sumerians were from south Iraq, later expanded north, what pretty much is where Kurds live today.

[Hax]

That's all nice and well, but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest an ethnic or linguistic link between the two. If I remember correctly, the Sumerians ruled in Mesopotamia some 1500 years before the Iranian migration.

[Fragony]

That's all nice and well, but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest an ethnic or linguistic link between the two.

No there isn't as far as I know, but it does at least indicate that the later Sumerian kings ruled over two 'peoples', not one. If you position the territory up north it pretty much are where Kurds live now. The Assyrians kept using the term for their Kings, now that I thing of it, I think it is 'King of Sumer and Assad'. Don't hurt me all too much if I got that wrong.

Edit, lol it's akkad. Shame on me <- he

[Empire*Of*Media]

That's all nice and well, but there is absolutely no evidence to suggest an ethnic or linguistic link between the two. If I remember correctly, the Sumerians ruled in Mesopotamia some 1500 years before the Iranian migration.

thanks for the notice. well the matter is the Word "KURDS" will not only goes back to Medes (Medians). we have a people with their Religion called "Yezidism-Izadism" that their Religion goes back to more than 2500 Bc in 4500 years ago in Times of Hurrians (Khurrian) as both of them believes the Sun God and respected Holy Sun......still their Symbols are one matched. later the Medians came and the ARYAN KURDS were mixed to them and got from and gave influence to them!!

[Hax]

There is no evidence for any of that.

[Fragony]

There is no evidence for any of that.

Yes there is.

[Hax]

The idea of Yazidism fits really well with modern Kurdish nationalism, but it has no solid basis in anything historical. There is no indication that there was this shared Kurdish identity before like the 18th century.

[Empire*Of*Media]

The idea of Yazidism fits really well with modern Kurdish nationalism, but it has no solid basis in anything historical. There is no indication that there was this shared Kurdish identity before like the 18th century.

and with what source or discussing themselves, you got to that result?!

exactly its inverse. Yezidis gradually lost their Language and Clothes (Some not all) after the Islamic Ottomon Persecution and mostly after The Pan-Turkism and Kamalism and Pan-Arabism or Baathism by both Assads and Saddam. they were motly Arabized and Turkified in those periods not before.......so how on earth many still speak Kurmanji?! and how Yezidis in Armenia can freely and without fear build Fire Temples and Inscribe The FARWAHAR/Farvahar of Zarathushtra ?!

and strange thing is that theres some difference between Yezidis in Armenia With others.......what this can say ?

and the English source in Wikipedia is so much less and starts from where Sheikh Ezi reformed yezidism, while that religion backs to Hurrian times. here is interesting >> http://glosbe.com/en/en/Hurrians AND http://geyeti.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/ayn-300x225.jpg sorry i couldnt find powerful English Sources, as many is in Kurmanji or GERMAN.

[Hax]

I can read German.

[Empire*Of*Media]

so can you find this book: Die Kurden by Gunther Deschner ?! its a brilliant book about Kurds.

indeed Gunther spent 30 years of his life in Kurdistan of four splited parts. thats amazing!! a man spent most of his life better say sacrifice his life only to know whats wrong with this region on the earth "Kurdistan" !!
so he can say anything because he has lived long years among those people, visiting their leaders and much more.

and if you find other books by Vladimir Minorsky & David Mackenzie about THE KURDS many things will be known. the wretched fact is that no really research has been done by archeologists except those Russians & Germans i said, and it was in a bad time (WWI - WW II) and plus, it did not go worldwide! thats the why that no one knows about ancient Kurdish civilizations not only the world or even Persians, but even ourselves!!

one question: how much German and Dutch have difference?! and are Germans and Dutch common in some SAXON race?! and SAXON is that GERMAN or not completely?

[Fragony]

Much more is known here than you might think, there is much less known of the hundreds(?) of tribes that were under Persian King of Kings.

Edit: Haxie is an arab Dutchie by the way. But Germans an Dutch are pretty much the same, except for the North, Frysland is really Viking.

[Hax]

Why are you so obsessed with race?

EDIT: No, I'm not an "Arab Dutchman", I'm just Dutch. Arab is a cultural term.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Much more is known here than you might think, there is much less known of the hundreds(?) of tribes that were under Persian King of Kings.

i did not understand your post's relevance to the books i mentioned and questioned i asked ---- or your loving SPAMS recently !!! ~;)


so can you find this book: Die Kurden by Gunther Deschner ?! its a brilliant book about Kurds.

indeed Gunther spent 30 years of his life in Kurdistan of four splited parts. thats amazing!! a man spent most of his life better say sacrifice his life only to know whats wrong with this region on the earth "Kurdistan" !!
so he can say anything because he has lived long years among those people, visiting their leaders and much more.

and if you find other books by Vladimir Minorsky & David Mackenzie about THE KURDS many things will be known. the wretched fact is that no really research has been done by archeologists except those Russians & Germans i said, and it was in a bad time (WWI - WW II) and plus, it did not go worldwide! thats the why that no one knows about ancient Kurdish civilizations not only the world or even Persians, but even ourselves!!

one question: how much German and Dutch have difference?! and are Germans and Dutch common in some SAXON race?! and SAXON is that GERMAN or not completely?

i think the complete book's name is Die KURDEN - Volk Ohne Staat Geschichte und Hoffnung. i dont know what is this meaning but how lovely it would be if German or any other language was international except English!! and saving the words to memory was easier & better too!

ok. but i dont know the Vasili Nikitin (=Kurd & Kurdistan) & David Mackenzie (=The Origins of the Kurds) & Vladimir Minorski (=The Kurds & The Kurds predecessors of Medes(Media)) in German unfortunately!

so and what about The Saxons and German ?

[Fragony]

We can read German just fine, people without a state, yeah.

[Empire*Of*Media]

so can you find this book: Die Kurden by Gunther Deschner ?! its a brilliant book about Kurds.

indeed Gunther spent 30 years of his life in Kurdistan of four splited parts. thats amazing!! a man spent most of his life better say sacrifice his life only to know whats wrong with this region on the earth "Kurdistan" !!
so he can say anything because he has lived long years among those people, visiting their leaders and much more.

and if you find other books by Vladimir Minorsky & David Mackenzie about THE KURDS many things will be known. the wretched fact is that no really research has been done by archeologists except those Russians & Germans i said, and it was in a bad time (WWI - WW II) and plus, it did not go worldwide! thats the why that no one knows about ancient Kurdish civilizations not only the world or even Persians, but even ourselves!!

one question: how much German and Dutch have difference?! and are Germans and Dutch common in some SAXON race?! and SAXON is that GERMAN or not completely?


i think the complete book's name is Die KURDEN - Volk Ohne Staat Geschichte und Hoffnung. i dont know what is this meaning but how lovely it would be if German or any other language was international except English!! and saving the words to memory was easier & better too!

ok. but i dont know the Vasili Nikitin (=Kurd & Kurdistan) & David Mackenzie (=The Origins of the Kurds) & Vladimir Minorski (=The Kurds & The Kurds predecessors of Medes(Media)) in German unfortunately!

so and what about The Saxons and German ?

Hax or Fragony or anyone?! .... lol


We can read German just fine, people without a state, yeah.
so can you find that book in German or English please?! my internet is very limited! Please......
Really?! you Dutch have learned Deutsch or its close to yours or not much difference?! its like difference between Dialect?! like ours Kurdish Kurmanji & Sorani?! Like Indian Punjubi & Gujarati ?!
or Deutsch is far from Dutch?! even with now we see similarity between the word Dutch & Deutsch and i have seen some words little difference. this will reveal the heavy Racial connection between Deutschland & Dutch & Denmark & Sweden & Finland!

but i dont know what to call them Deutsch or German race or ......?

[Fragony]

German an Dutch language are related, we don't think in races. Germans and Dutch are related I guess.

Understanding Europe; http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqam5ZLUFhA

Some huge errors in it but you get the idea

[Hax]

Well, duh. We have to assume that the Germanic tribes that settled in Holland are related to those in Germany, and if that wasn't the case, Holland was part of the Holy Roman Empire for such a long time that people started to mix anyway.

In any case, all this talk about "race" and "tribe" have fairly little to do with the situation in reality. Most of the terms we apply to nationalities are arbitrary anyway, so the terms "ethnic German" and "ethnic Dutchman" don't really mean anything. It's not like the people are completely different (also, the Dutch were anywhere between Amsterdam and St. Petersburg during the Hansa league, so there is probably a lot of Dutch "blood" mixed throughout).

[Empire*Of*Media]

i think Europe like Middle East has seen many many Races and Tribe's mixes. i thought otherwise before. now i dont think "Pure Race has been remained. well i dont want to consider the 1.5 million rape to German Women by Russians, i mean the Huns and Slavs and Mongols.

but whatever it was done, its not like Middle East that Turks & Arabs really made Chaos in there and many Civilizations & Cultures were destroyed mostly forever !!

[TiagoJRToledo]

German an Dutch language are related, we don't think in races. Germans and Dutch are related I guess.

Understanding Europe; http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqam5ZLUFhA

Some huge errors in it but you get the idea

I think this is better for the understanding of Europe:laugh4::


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-WO73Dh7rY

[Fragony]

i think Europe like Middle East has seen many many Races and Tribe's mixes. i thought otherwise before. now i dont think "Pure Race has been remained. well i dont want to consider the 1.5 million rape to German Women by Russians, i mean the Huns and Slavs and Mongols.

but whatever it was done, its not like Middle East that Turks & Arabs really made Chaos in there and many Civilizations & Cultures were destroyed mostly forever !!

I don't really get your obsession with race. The situation is different here, different way of thinking. Kurds have always had a really hard time, and I can't blame you for looking for an idendity. But there is no such thing as pure blood, i am part Dutch, part German, bit of Danish, some jewish.

[Empire*Of*Media]

I don't really get your obsession with race. The situation is different here, different way of thinking. Kurds have always had a really hard time, and I can't blame you for looking for an idendity. But there is no such thing as pure blood, i am part Dutch, part German, bit of Danish, some jewish.


and i confirmed that too! i said i was obsessed earlier but not now. but that doesnt mean once some places of the world had pure races were not destroyed by hordes from Arabia & Central & Eastern Central Asia.

by the fall of Sassanids & Romans many great Races & Nations were destroyed because of rapes and abuses of the Wild Horde Factions!!

[Kadagar_AV]

Why are you so obsessed with race?

EDIT: No, I'm not an "Arab Dutchman", I'm just Dutch. Arab is a cultural term.

If Dutchmen see you as a Arab Dutchman, you obviously ain't culturally Dutch enough to qualify in their eyes.

[Hax]

Well you can go shove that up your piehole, because that decision is entirely up to me.

Christ, you don't even know me, so why don't you just shut up?

[TiagoJRToledo]

Well you can go shove that up your piehole, because that decision is entirely up to me.

Christ, you don't even know me, so why don't you just shut up?

And how about we remain civil here?

[Hax]

I have no interest in remaining civil. He doesn't know me, he doesn't know my social environment, he has no idea who I am, and neither does Fragony. Let me phrase it differently: who the hell is he to judge whether other Dutchmen see me as Dutch? What even qualifies as "being culturally Dutch", and why the hell should a Swede who spends half of his time in Austria have anything to say about that? I was born in the Netherlands, I went to a Dutch school, I study at a Dutch university, and I speak Dutch as my native language and I celebrate Dutch holidays (yes, even the "racist" one). From where did he get the authority to make a sweeping statement about someone he doesn't even know?

[Fragony]

I didn't say anything, find another skirt to hang onto

[Empire*Of*Media]

I have no interest in remaining civil. He doesn't know me, he doesn't know my social environment, he has no idea who I am, and neither does Fragony. Let me phrase it differently: who the hell is he to judge whether other Dutchmen see me as Dutch? What even qualifies as "being culturally Dutch", and why the hell should a Swede who spends half of his time in Austria have anything to say about that? I was born in the Netherlands, I went to a Dutch school, I study at a Dutch university, and I speak Dutch as my native language and I celebrate Dutch holidays (yes, even the "racist" one). From where did he get the authority to make a sweeping statement about someone he doesn't even know?

I hope you didnt refer me, cause i did not say that to you did i?! or you refered Kadgar?
anyway if he says that too i think he just said your not 100% Dutch i dont think he wanted to Insult you.

[Beskar]

I didn't say anything, find another skirt to hang onto

Sorry, Frags, but you did.

Haxie is an arab Dutchie by the way.

:bow:


I hope you didnt refer me, cause i did not say that to you did i?! or you refered Kadgar?
anyway if he says that too i think he just said your not 100% Dutch i dont think he wanted to Insult you.

He was referring to Kadagar.

Out of curiosity, would you find it insulting if some one said you were not a real Kurd and just an Iranian with identity issues? I would assume you would be upset by that person.

Such classifications can be upsetting/distressing for people.

[Fragony]

Ok, said that. Don't see any possible offence in it, but I don't have monthly hormonal spikes most of the year

[Kadagar_AV]

Well you can go shove that up your piehole, because that decision is entirely up to me.

Christ, you don't even know me, so why don't you just shut up?

YEY... I guess I can be Dutch too then, cool. Nevermind that the Dutch see me as a Swede, DAMN them if they don't accept my Dutchnessiveness* (and I can make up words too, AWESOME!!)

* That was Dutch btw.

[Hax]

Well, as long as you're right with me singing Sinterklaas songs in Dutch, then sure.

In any case, you don't know me at all, you don't really know any Dutch people and you certainly don't know how they look at me. I sort of want to say "I'm completely integrated into Dutch culture" but the statement itself is stupid because I was raised in Holland by a Dutch mother and a Dutch family.


Ok, said that. Don't see any possible offence in it, but I don't have monthly hormonal spikes most of the year

My anger wasn't directed towards you. A more correct way of saying would be Dutchmen of partially Arabic extracation, but since we've already established that Arab is more a cultural than an ethnic designation (or maybe something inbetween!) an even more correct way would be Dutchman of partially Algerian extraction. In any case, my father is much more culturally French than he'd like to admit I think.

One of the reasons why I've disliked studying Arabic over time is that people have always assumed that it's got something to do with the fact that it's because I feel the need to "get in touch with my Arab side". Although I'm willing to concede that it did play a role in the fact that I went to study that in university, I think I've really outgrown that phase. Maybe this is not the right thread to talk about this.

Kadagar: I responded a bit more agressively than perhaps was/is justifiable, but what really got on my nerves was the fact that you so easily disappropriated me of what I consider to be my own culture. I really haven't encountered anyone doubting my "Dutchness" for over 15 years now, so it does piss me off.

[Empire*Of*Media]

He was referring to Kadagar.

Out of curiosity, would you find it insulting if some one said you were not a real Kurd and just an Iranian with identity issues? I would assume you would be upset by that person.

Such classifications can be upsetting/distressing for people.

well HE himself said he was half Arab! but i think its FRAGONY's Fault that Exposed it!! he should be Blamed!!! lol:rtwno: im Voting for FRAGONY's punishment with throwing him into the Islamic Jails!! oh no thats too much hell for him. ok Beat him?! bite Him?! do whatever you like but not that hard! because he is in my Friends list!! :rtwyes:


YEY... I guess I can be Dutch too then, cool. Nevermind that the Dutch see me as a Swede, DAMN them if they don't accept my Dutchnessiveness* (and I can make up words too, AWESOME!!)

* That was Dutch btw.

your too much funny these days, or you are always?!:laugh4:


Well, as long as you're right with me singing Sinterklaas songs in Dutch, then sure.

In any case, you don't know me at all, you don't really know any Dutch people and you certainly don't know how they look at me. I sort of want to say "I'm completely integrated into Dutch culture" but the statement itself is stupid because I was raised in Holland by a Dutch mother and a Dutch family.



My anger wasn't directed towards you. A more correct way of saying would be Dutchmen of partially Arabic extracation, but since we've already established that Arab is more a cultural than an ethnic designation (or maybe something inbetween!) an even more correct way would be Dutchman of partially Algerian extraction. In any case, my father is much more culturally French than he'd like to admit I think.

One of the reasons why I've disliked studying Arabic over time is that people have always assumed that it's got something to do with the fact that it's because I feel the need to "get in touch with my Arab side". Although I'm willing to concede that it did play a role in the fact that I went to study that in university, I think I've really outgrown that phase. Maybe this is not the right thread to talk about this.

Kadagar: I responded a bit more agressively than perhaps was/is justifiable, but what really got on my nerves was the fact that you so easily disappropriated me of what I consider to be my own culture. I really haven't encountered anyone doubting my "Dutchness" for over 15 years now, so it does piss me off.

i liked your Zeal for Dutchness! kind of Zeal indeed. if it was me, they wold call it RACIST !! lol

[Hax]

im Voting for FRAGONY's punishment with throwing him into the Islamic Jails!! oh no thats too much hell for him.

Right, because all Arabs are Muslim.

I don't think I said anywhere that I was half-Arab. My father is (sort of anyway). The fact that my mother is a woman doesn't make me half-female.

In any case, my granddad held French nationality and my father was born in France, so I should be half-French.

[Kadagar_AV]

Right, because all Arabs are Muslim.

I don't think I said anywhere that I was half-Arab. My father is (sort of anyway). The fact that my mother is a woman doesn't make me half-female.

In any case, my granddad held French nationality and my father was born in France, so I should be half-French.

I understood that you were Arab way before I learned you were Dutch :shrug:

I only base that on the things you wrote thus far, and the topics you decided to get into depths on.

Sorry mate, can't blame me for your own game.

[Hax]

I understood that you were Arab way before I learned you were Dutch :shrug:

Well, that's your problem.

[Kadagar_AV]

Well, that's your problem.

In my defense, Frags was my closest source of comparison..

[ReluctantSamurai]

Guys....are you finished derailing this thread? Go watch some Hatfields & McCoys or something, will ya please? ~;)

[Empire*Of*Media]

Guys....are you finished derailing this thread? Go watch some Hatfields & McCoys or something, will ya please? ~;)

:laugh4:

who's in the Hetfield and who is in MacCoys ?!