View Full Version : As an atheist, I kinda like this new Pope...
spankythehippo
05-25-2013, 02:29
Pope Francis says that atheists that do good deeds will be accepted. At least he doesn't see heaven as a premium member service club.
I don't believe in heaven, but I appreciate the words of the Pope.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/atheists-like-what-they-see-in-pope-francis-new-openness_n_3329548.html
total relism could learn a thing or two.
This is not gonna sit well with the Evangelicals.
A very good move for the Pope. It is when such figures make enlightened comments, it takes them beyond their traditional spheres and makes even 'opponents' respect them. The previous pope was a right devil when it came to 'non-believers' especially in the comments he made about the British isles before his visit.
Catholics and Non-Catholics are able to live in peace and it is good to know that the Pope recognises that.
Hooahguy
05-25-2013, 03:52
I gotta say, Benedict stepping down and Pope Francist being appointed was probably the best thing to happen to Catholicism in a long time.
This is not gonna sit well with the Evangelicals.
Considering Evangelicals are all protestants, their opinion of the Papacy couldn't get much lower.
HopAlongBunny
05-25-2013, 10:22
"We must meet one another doing good" (from article)
I am HopAlongBunny an I approve of this message :p
http://www.openbible.info/topics/good_deeds_to_go_to_heaven
John 14:6 ESV
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
So the Pope's word trumps the word of the son of god now as far as the church is concerned? Interesting...
Empire*Of*Media
05-25-2013, 12:46
Pope Francis says that atheists that do good deeds will be accepted. At least he doesn't see heaven as a premium member service club.
I don't believe in heaven, but I appreciate the words of the Pope.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/23/atheists-like-what-they-see-in-pope-francis-new-openness_n_3329548.html
total relism could learn a thing or two.
YES! i and in where Jesus said ONLY CHRISTIANS are good men and can enter to heaven?!!(while in Islam Says The Only Acceptable people for Allah or god, are the muslims!!) in fact Jesus was a jewish protestant, he wanted to wipe off fanaticism and ignorance, but another interesting fact, Jesus Never told he has brought a new Religions, it is after Jesus Christ,that some selfish Roman popes that before were in a society full of lewdness & immorality and corruption of ROMAN Empire, wanted to have a Powerful Political Religion to control most of things in around 500-550 AD Created Catholicism and started to EDIT JESUS's thoughts and advises as their own like!!; Catholicism is POPEism, i compare them with the Caliphate Shia's Version of Wali Faqih, that call himself the Representative of God and its prophet and can do whatever and give laws how he will just because he thinks or people thinks he is Indicated by god!!!
and thats how the False Christianity grows and will be representative as main Christian in worlds eyes. Jesus never said only help a christian or a jew,(Unlike Islam) Jesus is for the world, i dont call myself christian, but it must be interesting, me in a middle east country, without being in any Christian publicity or propaganda,as it is forbidden in Islamic societies and governments, Adore the Jesus's Personality!!!!
i bet it is the False thoughts they tell you and show you about jesus and god, thats why Imperialist Governments and Their Puppet "MEDIA" will make you to see other ways except believing God (Not Religions!), or hate UnAtheist Beliefs !!
Regarding the atheist thing, the very next day the vatican released a statement, to "clarify" the Pope's statement, that said that:
"The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, said that people who are aware of the Catholic church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her.”
So no free ride you silly godless people.....step in line, business as usual.
this week the pope has also spoken against slavery, the Pope has proven this week that he apparently hasn´t read the Bible much lately.
And I´m not bagging on him for that, because I see that as a good thing.
Rhyfelwyr
05-25-2013, 13:13
The Pope certainly said atheists could do good works, but where does he say anything about them being "accepted" into heaven?
The Pope certainly said atheists could do good works, but where does he say anything about them being "accepted" into heaven?
More referring to this:
https://i.imgur.com/xnCrYTp.jpg
Considering Evangelicals are all protestants, their opinion of the Papacy couldn't get much lower.
It can. I'm not sure if the appeal to non-believers is worth risking a further rift within Christianity. He knows better of course, but still.
LittleGrizzly
05-25-2013, 14:49
Tiaexz isn't that just a way of saying we are all God's children?
Something I assume Catholics would believe anyway, whilst not necessarily meaning all God's children get into heaven?
At a guess that is.
HoreTore
05-25-2013, 16:26
I am a non-christian precisely because I do not wish to spend eternity together with the christians.
What the pope did is to actually condemn me to an even worse place than hell. I do not applaud him.
Rhyfelwyr
05-25-2013, 16:27
More referring to this:
Was that in the article?
As a atheist, I do not care as there is no Paradise to go. I don't need a reward or a threat to do things. My own humanity is enough.
a completely inoffensive name
05-25-2013, 19:45
No one should care about what the atheists here think about the Pope's statement. It's about changing the attitudes of the highly religious who currently feel that atheists are the most evil people in the world.
This statement is great because it is a message of tolerance and if anyone has ever lived in certain parts of the US, you would know it is badly needed. Don't let this become an opportunity to unleash that classic atheist smugness.
Rhyfelwyr
05-25-2013, 21:37
This statement is great because it is a message of tolerance and if anyone has ever lived in certain parts of the US, you would know it is badly needed.
I'm not sure how much sway the Pope carries in those parts of the US.
Strike For The South
05-25-2013, 21:54
I'm not sure how much sway the Pope carries in those parts of the US.
This probably just confirms a lot of their suspicions!
"classic atheist smugness.":laugh4: So much for the "message of tolerance" ~:)
"classic atheist smugness.":laugh4: So much for the "message of tolerance" ~:)
HoreTore is basically saying that he as an atheist is incredibly intolerant of Christians and ACIN is not a catholic as far as I know.
And I agree with him that atheists shouldn't really matter when it comes to religion. Everything atheists demand from religious leaders is aimed at disbanding the religion anyway, so why would religious leaders listen to them? Atheists are part of the world and people who are part of the world are owned by the devil.
spankythehippo
05-26-2013, 03:12
HoreTore is basically saying that he as an atheist is incredibly intolerant of Christians and ACIN is not a catholic as far as I know.
And I agree with him that atheists shouldn't really matter when it comes to religion. Everything atheists demand from religious leaders is aimed at disbanding the religion anyway, so why would religious leaders listen to them? Atheists are part of the world and people who are part of the world are owned by the devil.
It's kinda like being in hospital for some serious injury. Friends come over to see how your doing, and one religious friend might say "I'll pray for your swift recovery". Of course, this doesn't actually help in the recovery process, but it's the thought that counts. You don't say to that friend "Yeah, well God doesn't exist, so **** off". You say something like "Thanks" or "I appreciate it".
HoreTore seems to be exemplifying the hostility of atheists. If atheists are the rational and logical thinkers, then isn't it wise just to accept the "nice" things religious people say? To be fair, I can empathise where he's coming from. In fact, I might share the same view. But only because most uber-religious people aren't fun to hang around with. They always bring religion into every conversation. That's what is insufferable. I don't start bringing up Darwinism in every conversation, like Dawkins. So that's the only reason I wouldn't want to live in the afterlife (if it exists) with a bunch of religious nutcases, because they're not fun. And because I don't believe the afterlife exists, so it doesn't even matter.
a completely inoffensive name
05-26-2013, 05:24
[QUOTE=Husar;2053529402]HoreTore is basically saying that he as an atheist is incredibly intolerant of Christians and ACIN is not a catholic as far as I know.
[QUOTE]
I am as atheist as you can get. But I have seen some of the positives of what religion can do. Every angst ridden atheist who holds a grudge against everything and everyone that religion touches lacks perspective in my opinion.
“And I agree with him that atheists shouldn't really matter when it comes to religion.” I agree with your agreement.
To be fair, I am with TR (that is when he will give his opinion I suppose he will have)on this one.
What is the aim to have no sex before marriage, no parties, no adultery, not be able to eat what you want when you want and watch all the movies you want, not to enjoy life and to stone to death your neighbours who work on Sabbath, and explosion few people and then meet in Heaven the godless girl you always try not to think about just because she did some good and was in fact a nice person and she did some good (not that much anyway)? And not with me...
That is not FAIR… I am telling you that if I was a believer in the Catholic God, I change God. We had a CONTRACT Sir, err, God. That is where the word Religion comes from: Religio, the link, bond, in Latin, the link between the Creator and the Creature. You protect me, I worship you. It is not a one way contract, Sir. God. So, if even harlots and corrupted have access to Heaven, I say no. The believers (of the right faith, I don't speak of the Infidels, the Schismatics and Heretics) have right, Sir. God. The Masses will not accept this, Sir. God. They will have effect, the masses (Mass effect 1, 2 & 3)...... Sorry. :shame:
To be fair, I am with TR (that is when he will give his opinion I suppose he will have)on this one.
What is the aim to have no sex before marriage, no parties, no adultery, not be able to eat what you want when you want and watch all the movies you want, not to enjoy life and to stone to death your neighbours who work on Sabbath, and explosion few people and then meet in Heaven the godless girl you always try not to think about just because she did some good and was in fact a nice person and she did some good (not that much anyway)? And not with me...
That is not FAIR… I am telling you that if I was a believer in the Catholic God, I change God. We had a CONTRACT Sir, err, God. That is where the word Religion comes from: Religio, the link, bond, in Latin, the link between the Creator and the Creature. You protect me, I worship you. It is not a one way contract, Sir. God. So, if even harlots and corrupted have access to Heaven, I say no. The believers (of the right faith, I don't speak of the Infidels, the Schismatics and Heretics) have right, Sir. God. The Masses will not accept this, Sir. God. They will have effect, the masses (Mass effect 1, 2 & 3)...... Sorry. :shame:
That's not how it works though.
The way it works is that god makes the rules. And if the pope is god's ambassador on earth, he should not claim the rules changed because some atheists demand it. Why would god change the rules according to the demands of atheists? People behave like there is an almighty god but he has to bend his rules exactly the way we want it, otherwise we refuse to accept him as our lord. In case of atheists it's even funnier because they demand to change the rules of a god they don't believe exists in the first place. Which is why religious people should not listen to them.
God never had the people of the Israelites vote on who should be their king, he decided on a guy and made him king, no mention of democracy.
That is where the word Religion comes from: Religio, the link, bond, in Latin, the link between the Creator and the Creature. You protect me, I worship you. It is not a one way contract, Sir. God. So, if even harlots and corrupted have access to Heaven, I say no. The believers (of the right faith, I don't speak of the Infidels, the Schismatics and Heretics) have right, Sir. God. The Masses will not accept this, Sir. God. They will have effect, the masses (Mass effect 1, 2 & 3)...... Sorry. :shame:
Nice reflection on the meaning of religion. I would however like to offer a different etymology of the word religion.
Religio - to bind, a binding of mankind to their deity, is less contractual and more the process whereby someone can reforge the broken bond (separation) to deity. For Christianity it is the Gospel of Jesus. Or - the means whereby one can attain salvation.
As the pope rightfully points out, The Christian core teaching is that Christ suffered for all. This is basically the reforging of the broken bond between mankind and God. Then the gospel is about the conditions of Christ accepting who this applies to. Christ holds the ransom of all sins committed but gives conditions for this debt. These conditions are not widly agreed upon, which gives us the variety of denomination. Basically no one knows but Christ and should thus suspend any judgements in this regard lest they be judged themselves. It is a general consensus that not all who says Lord, Lord will receive salvation as their hearts are not where their mouth is.
Confused? Not alone... I don't comprehend the relation between having already suffered for all and still not, as conditions apply. if something is payed for, how can payment still be wanted? Justice demands consequences or payment, yet justice are satisfied through Christ. How can justice still have claim on the perpetrator? Justice here meaning God's justice. Missing pieces in my puzzle...
HoreTore
05-26-2013, 14:38
HoreTore is basically saying that he as an atheist is incredibly intolerant of Christians and ACIN is not a catholic as far as I know.
And I agree with him that atheists shouldn't really matter when it comes to religion. Everything atheists demand from religious leaders is aimed at disbanding the religion anyway, so why would religious leaders listen to them? Atheists are part of the world and people who are part of the world are owned by the devil.
"Incredibly intolerant", Husar.....?
"Why would god change the rules according to the demands of atheists?" Err, atheists demand nothing to the Flying Spaghetti. Or the Big Friend in the Sky. Or the big Crocodile.
Was that in the article?
Yes. It was mentioned in the article and it a picture taken from the video review of the event. (Which is at the bottom)
LittleGrizzly
05-26-2013, 23:41
I think all the Atheists want is the men in the silly hats to preach to preach a inclusive, peaceful and helpful message from their fictional deities so their followers cause as little trouble as possible...
Given our disbelief in God (as Atheists) we do not ask anything of him.
Given our disbelief in God (as Atheists) we do not ask anything of him.
Then why so many atheists take offense when they're told that they're on their way to Hell?
LittleGrizzly
05-27-2013, 00:48
Then why so many atheists take offense when they're told that they're on their way to Hell?
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For the purpose off this answer you have to understand that there is no God (at least in the viewpoint of Atheists)
Also this answer my seem offensive to Christians in some parts but understand that I an answering from an Atheist point of view (not that I speak for them all) and I mean no offence...
No Atheist believes God is going to send them to hell, they have no belief in either hell or God...
It is sort of like telling an adult that Father Christmas isn't going to give them any Christmas presents (kids, Santa is real, don't believe the lies!)
What a non-believer in Santa may have a problem with is that the believer believes him to be either a bad person as the reason for him not getting Christmas presents or that the believer believes in an entity that would punish good people simply for not believing in something that with no real proof of its existence being provided or simply by an accident of birth (being born somewhere where a non-belief in Santa is common resulting in a person unlikely to ever believe)
What it is important to remember is that God is infallible, he is all powerful and all seeing. If God is sending someone to hell then that must be the correct decision and must be where the person deserves to go.
So your belief that this good person will be justly punished for their actions is offensive...
Or to personalise it (let us assume I am a good person) you (assuming you are a believer as well for the purpose) think I am going to hell and that is the correct decision. I am not really all that offended in all honesty but you can understand why a person may be.
Of course there are plenty who will just use it as a chance to have a pop at religion.
For the purpose off this answer you have to understand that there is no God (at least in the viewpoint of Atheists)
That's a given. Can't be an atheist if you think otherwise.
No Atheist believes God is going to send them to hell, they have no belief in either hell or God...
Precisely.
What a non-believer in Santa may have a problem with is that the believer believes him to be either a bad person as the reason for him not getting Christmas presents or that the believer believes in an entity that would punish good people simply for not believing in something that with no real proof of its existence being provided or simply by an accident of birth (being born somewhere where a non-belief in Santa is common resulting in a person unlikely to ever believe)
Faith or lack thereof is not an indication of personal decency though. There are plenty of believers with whom I won't shake hands and plenty of non-believers whom I know to be good people. How can Hell be a punishment for someone who doesn't want to associate with God in the first place?
What it is important to remember is that God is infallible, he is all powerful and all seeing. If God is sending someone to hell then that must be the correct decision and must be where the person deserves to go.
God isn't really sending anybody to Hell. Hell exists for one reason and one reason only: nobody is required to go to Heaven, i.e. God is not forcing anybody to be with him. Those who do not want to be with him get to go to the place where there is no God, i.e. to Hell. How is that a punishment? God is merely respecting our freedom of choice.
So your belief that this good person will be justly punished for their actions is offensive...
This is obviously not my belief.
LittleGrizzly
05-27-2013, 02:39
Faith or lack thereof is not an indication of personal decency though. There are plenty of believers with whom I won't shake hands and plenty of non-believers whom I know to be good people.
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That wasn't so much a point of my argument more of a disclaimer, basically I was removing bad people from the equation so we are just talking about good people going to hell.
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How can Hell be a punishment for someone who doesn't want to associate with God in the first place?
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Well it depends on how exactly you view hell and heaven I guess.
If we are to go with Dante's inferno which I think is one of the kinder ones with regard to Atheists then...
thus the guiltless damned are punished by living in a deficient form of Heaven.
Actually I have hit a little bit of a brick wall here, I thought non believers went to Limbo but I seem to have conflicting information that says only non-believers who had no control/choice over the matter go here... So where do the non believers who did hear the word of Christ go?
I think (or at least thought) that Dante's Inferno is one of the kinder ones when it comes to non believers...
Actually I have hit a little bit of a brick wall here, I thought non believers went to Limbo but I seem to have conflicting information that says only non-believers who had no control/choice over the matter go here... So where do the non believers who did hear the word of Christ go?
I think (or at least thought) that Dante's Inferno is one of the kinder ones when it comes to non believers...
Let's keep one thing in mind: Dante was a brilliant author, but his religious authority is no greater than yours or mine. Theologically speaking, the essence of heaven is being with God. Nothing more, nothing less. Just as the essence of Hell means not being with God.
LittleGrizzly
05-27-2013, 04:01
Who am I to take as an authoritative voice on the subject then?
Surely the bible is about as authoritative as it gets...
(3) Hell is conscious torment.
Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.
Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”
That makes it very much appear that hell contains punishments aside from not being in God's presence.
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This is obviously not my belief.
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Well this point very much rests on our discussion about hell. If we assume that hell is a punishment aside from not being with God and you believe that non believers do go to hell...
Also you believe your god is infallible then the only conclusion is that you believe that good people will justly be punished. Obviously this does rest on the fact hell is a bad place aside from the lack of God's presence as I mentioned earlier.
Obviously this does rest on the fact hell is a bad place aside from the lack of God's presence as I mentioned earlier.
Of course Hell is a terrible place. Worst place ever. But God doesn't send people to Hell, people choose to go there. Whether or not that choice is made in this life or in the next one, I cannot say, but God doesn't want anybody to end up in Hell. It's not up to him though, we are free to accept God or to reject him, and end up where we should be according to our wishes.
The Lurker Below
05-27-2013, 16:08
God didn't choose sides. imo. A papal announcement that more or less makes the same assertion is a pretty significant historical event. Course that requires the church to follow up in it's practices, which clearly they have no intention to do.
Everybody look busy, Jesus is coming.
Ironside
05-27-2013, 17:42
Of course Hell is a terrible place. Worst place ever. But God doesn't send people to Hell, people choose to go there. Whether or not that choice is made in this life or in the next one, I cannot say, but God doesn't want anybody to end up in Hell. It's not up to him though, we are free to accept God or to reject him, and end up where we should be according to our wishes.
It is a bit suspicious when God created Hell, left someone whom you defeated and has extremely bad rep in charge and it's a place of great torment. There's a slight difference between Dante's Limbo (aka earth with decent people, but with a full knowledge that you missed all the great stuff) and eternal torture. Hell and Heaven doesn't have the same relationship as Hel and Valhalla.
And back on earth, it's good to have people to be a bit more calmed down rather than working with saving people's eternal souls with full effort. That's because those eternal souls are supposedly more important than the earthly life and that invites very aggressive tactics.
There's a slight difference between Dante's Limbo (aka earth with decent people, but with a full knowledge that you missed all the great stuff) and eternal torture.
The tortures of Hell come from separation from the Divine, all the mumbo-jumbo about demons with pitchforks makes for a good story, but completely misses the whole point of hell. And Dante's Limbo is still Hell. People look at that and say "Hey, this isn't that bad...", but they're missing the point: There's no hope and no love in Limbo, just an empty pointless existence with no meaning or purpose. That is what makes Hell a scary place.
Ironside
05-27-2013, 22:03
The tortures of Hell come from separation from the Divine, all the mumbo-jumbo about demons with pitchforks makes for a good story, but completely misses the whole point of hell. And Dante's Limbo is still Hell. People look at that and say "Hey, this isn't that bad...", but they're missing the point: There's no hope and no love in Limbo, just an empty pointless existence with no meaning or purpose. That is what makes Hell a scary place.
Fair enough.Even if I strongly disagree with the "God is love" idea, unless we're going into "tough love" or "kill my family and commit suecide" versions. Possessive love.
But the point of Heaven and Hell is about more than free will when God has created both places. What you describes is more like a soul normally ends up in the "Void" without any interference and believing in god would make you come to "Eudaimonia". Even if the Void is unpleasant, the god does not bear any responsibillity for those ending up there. They rejected the god's will after all or choosed to simply ignore him. But simply ignoring him is no longer an option if he also created the Void, since the options are reduced to doing as I requested and/or face the consequences I have decided.
"Possessive love." Nope. Domestic abuse: Husband don't want to beat up wife, but she choose to be "insert pretext".
But simply ignoring him is no longer an option if he also created the Void, since the options are reduced to doing as I requested and/or face the consequences I have decided.
Can't ignore God if you're in God's presence. He's too big to ignore. If you want to ignore him, you have to do it in his absence. Some would be angry with God for letting them fall, others -- for preventing them from falling. But it's an either/or proposition, and even God cannot trump logic: either you're free, in which case you're free to fall, or you're not free to fall, i.e. not free to choose. You can only choose to be happy if there is a valid choice not to be happy.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
05-27-2013, 23:06
Then why so many atheists take offense when they're told that they're on their way to Hell?
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For the purpose off this answer you have to understand that there is no God (at least in the viewpoint of Atheists)
Also this answer my seem offensive to Christians in some parts but understand that I an answering from an Atheist point of view (not that I speak for them all) and I mean no offence...
No Atheist believes God is going to send them to hell, they have no belief in either hell or God...
It is sort of like telling an adult that Father Christmas isn't going to give them any Christmas presents (kids, Santa is real, don't believe the lies!)
What a non-believer in Santa may have a problem with is that the believer believes him to be either a bad person as the reason for him not getting Christmas presents or that the believer believes in an entity that would punish good people simply for not believing in something that with no real proof of its existence being provided or simply by an accident of birth (being born somewhere where a non-belief in Santa is common resulting in a person unlikely to ever believe)
What it is important to remember is that God is infallible, he is all powerful and all seeing. If God is sending someone to hell then that must be the correct decision and must be where the person deserves to go.
So your belief that this good person will be justly punished for their actions is offensive...
Or to personalise it (let us assume I am a good person) you (assuming you are a believer as well for the purpose) think I am going to hell and that is the correct decision. I am not really all that offended in all honesty but you can understand why a person may be.
Of course there are plenty who will just use it as a chance to have a pop at religion.
But then - many atheists see the religious as morally deficient or stupid, or cowardly - it's hardly surprising the feeling is returned.
Your argument hinges on you having an appreciation of what makes a "good" person, and it assumes you are right, so that God sends "good" people to hell. This also assumes God "sends" anyone to hell to.
Think about it logically - heaven is for people who want to be with God, Hell is for people who don't want to be with God. Atheists don't believe in God and often don't want to believe - so why complain when a Christian tells you you're going to Hell.
Don't you want to go to Hell, anyway?
Papewaio
05-27-2013, 23:31
Meh, this is about as useful as die hard Trekkies vs Jedi quoting fan fiction.
A bunch of old men who dress up in bath robes arguing canon of their respective sify. My Laser sword beats your phaser.
=][=
The Popes message looks more inclusive. Except the sales department decided that it would decrease the number of ticket sales to the true believer seats and they sent out a clarification. One always has to pay to get the best seats.
LittleGrizzly
05-27-2013, 23:43
Of course Hell is a terrible place. Worst place ever.
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Okay so Hell is a bad place.
God is infallible and doesn't make mistakes.
Non-Christians go to hell.
You believe in God and the three statements above.
Thus you believe good people being sent to a terrible place is the just and correct decision. I cannot really see another way around it...
Okay so Hell is a bad place.
To me, it is. Horetore indicated that he dreads Heaven instead.
God is infallible and doesn't make mistakes.
Yup.
Non-Christians go to hell.
Some do, some don't.
You believe in God and the three statements above.
With certain reservations, yes.
Thus you believe good people being sent to a terrible place is the just and correct decision.
Of course it's just and correct. They chose it. Not me, not God, they did. As Sartre once said, we are condemned to be free. If one wishes to be free from God, God is kind enough to oblige. Or would you prefer to get herded into Heaven against your will?
LittleGrizzly
05-27-2013, 23:56
But then - many atheists see the religious as morally deficient or stupid, or cowardly - it's hardly surprising the feeling is returned.
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So religious people tell Atheists they are going to hell as revenge for some Atheists mocking their faith?
I can't see what else this statement is getting at in reference to my reply....
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Your argument hinges on you having an appreciation of what makes a "good" person, and it assumes you are right, so that God sends "good" people to hell.
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No it doesn't. I said for the sake of argument let us assume I am a good person, you could have absolutely any non-Christian as the good person in my example.
Unless we assume the standard of being a good person involves being a Christian (which I am guessing you don't?) then this is not an issue at all.
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This also assumes God "sends" anyone to hell to.
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This could just be turning into an argument over semantics but to be honest God sending people to hell is like an abusive husband hitting his wife they both like to blame their actions on the other person (or people in God's case). It is God not people who are the ultimate power so he decides where people go and he has made the decision that people who don't worship him no matter how good they are will go to hell.
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Think about it logically - heaven is for people who want to be with God, Hell is for people who don't want to be with God. Atheists don't believe in God and often don't want to believe - so why complain when a Christian tells you you're going to Hell.
Don't you want to go to Hell, anyway?
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If I was choosing mythical places to go I don't think Hell would be on the top of the list so I am probably going to have to say no there.
You say Hell is for people who don't want to be with God but the from everything I know Christianity seems to indicate that people go to hell to be punished, with the absence of God not being the only punishment.
So I will complain when a Christian says a good person is going to hell because basically...
_____________________________________________
Hell is a bad place.
God is infallible and doesn't make mistakes.
Non-Christians go to hell.
You believe in God and the three statements above.
Thus you believe good people being sent to a terrible place is the just and correct decision.
_____________________________________________
They have a belief system where good people are sent for punishment and as their God is infallible that can only be a correct and just decision...
This is of course on the assumption they believe the statements I made above and that it is possible for a non-Christian to be a good person.
LittleGrizzly
05-27-2013, 23:58
Some do, some don't.
............................
Perhaps I should have been more specific...
non-Christians since the birth of Christ who have heard of the Christian faith go to hell.
Edit: Is that what you were driving at when you said some do and some don't?
non-Christians since the birth of Christ who have heard of the Christian faith go to hell.
Is that what you were driving at when you said some do and some don't?
No, not at all. Even if you're not a Christian you can go to Heaven.
You can go to Heaven even if you don't subscribe to an Abrahamic religion.
You can go to Heaven even if you don't think that there is a God.
You just need to want to go to Heaven.
Rhyfelwyr
05-28-2013, 00:18
rvg what scripture (or church teachings, if you are that way inclined) do you base your ideas here on?
rvg what scripture (or church teachings, if you are that way inclined) do you base your ideas here on?
Just logic.
God is Benevolent and Just, and he has made us Free.
Heaven/Hell are eternal, thus any temporary punishment (not matter how harsh) is pointless, and any eternal punishment(no matter how slight) is too harsh, i.e. unjust.
God welcomes everyone, but since we're free, we can decline his offer if we wish to. That's the only way to get to Hell.
That's basically it. Nobody ends up in Hell unless they explicitly decline to go to Heaven. God isn't keeping a tally or grading on a Bell Curve: the more people get in, the happier he gets.
In the end, if Hell is empty, that's the best case scenario.
All that matters is that I will be eaten first. (https://i.imgur.com/RGptlkd.jpg)
LittleGrizzly
05-28-2013, 01:14
You can go to Heaven even if you don't think that there is a God.
You just need to want to go to Heaven.
...............................................
Okay my bad, I think where I originally got into this it was basically in reference to the idea that good non Christians go to hell.... if you don't believe this then I guess we actually have no disagreement!
Though I have to ask how exactly the part I quoted works... presumably an Atheist wouldn't believe in heaven so could not want to go there so is that the trick or is there some moment when the existence of heaven is revealed after you die where you could get into heaven*?
*presumably you would still have to be a good person or could even Judas get into heaven?
*presumably you would still have to be a good person or could even Judas get into heaven?
Judas and Osama bin Laden.
God loves even the worst of the worst.
LittleGrizzly
05-28-2013, 01:52
Cannot fault that then RVG, nobody but nobody deserves to suffer (more than God's absence) for eternity!
Papewaio
05-28-2013, 03:04
All that matters is that I will be eaten first.
That's Madonna's like a prayer... A different kind of heaven.
Meh I am still screwed http://www.irishcentral.com/story/ent/manhattan_diary/vatican-corrects-infallible-pope-atheists-will-still-burn-in-hell-208987111.html
A well, in heaven there is no beer that is why we drink it here, cheers
Atheists go to hell, but so does all Christians. Abraham's bosom is a part of Hell (sheol). :sneaky:
Atheists go to hell, but so does all Christians. Abraham's bosom is a part of Hell (sheol). :sneaky:
No, that's the whole point of Christianity: Jesus came to tell the Jews that there's life after death.
Rhyfelwyr
05-28-2013, 13:34
No, that's the whole point of Christianity: Jesus came to tell the Jews that there's life after death.
I guess he shouldn't have upset the Pharisees too much then.
I guess he shouldn't have upset the Pharisees too much then.
Why not?
Rhyfelwyr
05-28-2013, 14:06
The Pharisees believed in life after death. That was one of their defining features that made that made them distinct from the Sadducees.
No, that's the whole point of Christianity: Jesus came to tell the Jews that there's life after death.
Ehm... I think you need to modify it to: Jesus came to redeem mankind from the fall of Adam. It's just that Judaism don't believe there is any original sin to be redeemed from, yet their scripture all but spoon feed this message. Isaiah was especially verbose about the coming of the Messiah - the Lamb, to be slain for mankind.
Besides it was only the Sadducees who didn't believe in an afterlife.
edit: Rhyf got here first.
"Just logic." In Religion? In belief should I say? And why not rationality?:help:
"Just logic." In Religion? In belief should I say? And why not rationality?:help:
What exactly is your question?
Montmorency
05-28-2013, 20:53
Just logic.
God is Benevolent and Just, and he has made us Free.
Heaven/Hell are eternal, thus any temporary punishment (not matter how harsh) is pointless, and any eternal punishment(no matter how slight) is too harsh, i.e. unjust.
God welcomes everyone, but since we're free, we can decline his offer if we wish to. That's the only way to get to Hell.
That's basically it. Nobody ends up in Hell unless they explicitly decline to go to Heaven. God isn't keeping a tally or grading on a Bell Curve: the more people get in, the happier he gets.
In the end, if Hell is empty, that's the best case scenario.
How do you know that God is Benevolent and Just? How do you know that he made you, or that you are "free?
How do you know that Heaven and Hell are eternal? Why is any eternal punishment unjust? Do you have insight into the nature of Justice above that of God?
You didn't address the point of Hell being a place that God specifically created. Did he or did he not create it? If he did not, why does he tolerate its existence? And how do you know that the only downside to Hell is separation from God? And does God allow Hell's denizens other opportunities to ascend to Heaven, should they decide that they'd like to? Does he give denizens of Heaven any opportunities to descend to Hell?
And why would God get happier, the more souls there are in Heaven? Is he so base as to have a fluctuating measure/experience of Happiness? Why shouldn't his Happiness always be either null (with Happiness not a Godly quality, just as size and weight and color are not) or infinite (He being the God and therefore The Ultimate)?
Why not accept this view: perhaps most people do indeed go to Hell, which is indeed a place of eternal suffering, because this indeed is just in the sight of God and within the Universe which He himself did create, no Ifs, Ands, or Buts?
I categorize you as a Demi-Deist.
And why not rationality?
Rationality is just a self-aggrandizing myth. As if you need more of that...
How do you know that God is Benevolent and Just?
There isn't any point in believing in an evil, unjust God, now is there?
How do you know that he made you,
Know? Of course I don't know. That's what faith is for.
or that you are "free?
I have no reason to believe otherwise.
How do you know that Heaven and Hell are eternal?
Know? It's merely an extrapolation, because a temporary Heaven/Hell would be pointless.
Why is any eternal punishment unjust?
Do you think it's just?
Do you have insight into the nature of Justice above that of God?
Of course not. It doesn't mean that I have no sense of justice though.
You didn't address the point of Hell being a place that God specifically created. Did he or did he not create it? If he did not, why does he tolerate its existence?
Sure I did. Of course he created Hell, because Hell is absolutely necessary. If there's no place to go except Heaven, then going to Heaven is no longer a choice.
And how do you know that the only downside to Hell is separation from God?
Because any other downside pales in comparison.
And does God allow Hell's denizens other opportunities to ascend to Heaven, should they decide that they'd like to?
Don't know. Don't care.
Does he give denizens of Heaven any opportunities to descend to Hell?
Don't know. Don't care.
And why would God get happier, the more souls there are in Heaven?
Because he loves us.
Is he so base as to have a fluctuating measure/experience of Happiness?
He is a person, not an automaton.
Why shouldn't his Happiness always be either null (with Happiness not a Godly quality, just as size and weight and color are not) or infinite (He being the God and therefore The Ultimate)?
Like I said, he's a person.
Why not accept this view: perhaps most people do indeed go to Hell, which is indeed a place of eternal suffering, because this indeed is just in the sight of God and within the Universe which He himself did create, no Ifs, Ands, or Buts?
Why accept this view?
I categorize you as a Demi-Deist.
I do not care.
“What exactly is your question?”
It is not a question.
Religion is based on faith, not on facts, proofs, evidence, reasoning, induction, conclusion or other components of brain activity. You believe or not. That is the base. Then, due to you family background, geographical situation and moment, you believe in Zeus, Osiris, Allah, Jehovah, the Big Crocodile, The Jedi Code, etc. And following one (or several) of these deities, you follow the moral codes that the sacred texts developed by the Priests gave you: Human sacrifices for rains if needed, days-off, gifts and mustard sausages (for Terry Pratchet readers).
“What exactly is your question?”
It is not a question.
Religion is based on faith, not on facts, proofs, evidence, reasoning, induction, conclusion or other components of brain activity. You believe or not. That is the base. Then, due to you family background, geographical situation and moment, you believe in Zeus, Osiris, Allah, Jehovah, the Big Crocodile, The Jedi Code, etc. And following one (or several) of these deities, you follow the moral codes that the sacred texts developed by the Priests gave you: Human sacrifices for rains if needed, days-off, gifts and mustard sausages (for Terry Pratchet readers).
It is not a question.
Religion is based on faith, not on facts, proofs, evidence, reasoning, induction, conclusion or other components of brain activity. You believe or not. That is the base. Then, due to you family background, geographical situation and moment, you believe in Zeus, Osiris, Allah, Jehovah, the Big Crocodile, The Jedi Code, etc. And following one (or several) of these deities, you follow the moral codes that the sacred texts developed by the Priests gave you: Human sacrifices for rains if needed, days-off, gifts and mustard sausages (for Terry Pratchet readers).
So?
a completely inoffensive name
05-28-2013, 23:57
This thread reminded me to read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. Always wondered why he converted from atheism to Christianity.
Montmorency
05-29-2013, 01:13
There isn't any point in believing in an evil, unjust God, now is there?
Why not?
Know? Of course I don't know. That's what faith is for.
Faith in faith, then?
I have no reason to believe otherwise.
Do you have any reason to believe so?
Know? It's merely an extrapolation, because a temporary Heaven/Hell would be pointless.
Certain Eastern religions might beg to differ.
Do you think it's just?
Why not?
Of course not. It doesn't mean that I have no sense of justice though.
But you're just begging the question. How do you know you have any sense of justice? Perhaps your sense of Justice is perpendicular to the true character of Justice.
Sure I did. Of course he created Hell, because Hell is absolutely necessary. If there's no place to go except Heaven, then going to Heaven is no longer a choice.
No no, see, if there was nothing before God made something, including Heaven, then why doesn't the ungodly soul just head to this "void"?
Because any other downside pales in comparison.
How do you know?
Don't know. Don't care.
So much for choice, then?
Don't know. Don't care.
So much for choice, then?
Because he loves us.
He is a person, not an automaton.
Like I said, he's a person.
Woah now, that sounds like blasphemy to me. So you pretty much believe in a hippie-Zeus?
Why accept this view?
Why not? Why accept your view?
I do not care.
I don't care that you don't care.
facts, proofs, evidence, reasoning, induction, conclusion or other components of brain activity
all rest upon faith.
Why not? Why accept your view?
You don't have to. You can paint whichever picture of God (or lack of God) suits you. God's qualities, wishes and plans are open to all kinds of interpretation.
a completely inoffensive name
05-29-2013, 03:51
God's qualities, wishes and plans are open to all kinds of interpretation.
Just the way God intended?
Just the way God intended?
Who am I to say?
a completely inoffensive name
05-29-2013, 04:05
Who am I to say?
Well it is a simple deduction to make. Here we find ourselves lost in a sea of interpretations and we ask ourselves is this what God wanted? If He did, then of course we would see the inaction we currently experience. If not, he would certainly perform an action to correct it, he has certainly done so in the past if we are to take the Bible at its word and of course there would be nothing in this universe to prevent the Greatest of All Things from doing what he wishes.
If not, he would certainly perform an action to correct it, he has certainly done so in the past if we are to take the Bible at its word and of course there would be nothing in this universe to prevent the Greatest of All Things from doing what he wishes.
You are implying that God wishes to deceive us. Hardly something to expect from a loving God.
a completely inoffensive name
05-29-2013, 05:48
You are implying that God wishes to deceive us. Hardly something to expect from a loving God.
I implied nothing. I am arguing that to me it seems only logical that the current state of affairs and previous history indicates that God wishes (or does not care) that there are many interpretations of Him and what He wants.
But I phrased the original reply to you as a question, because the natural outcome to this result is to ask, "Why in the world would God not care about the rampant variety of His message when the only universal message among all the sects and branches is that one interpretation is correct?" (with almost everyone obviously claiming it is their own)
Everyone seems to agree that He wants one way, but He seems to be in no hurry to correct everyone who is wrong. His last messenger (depending on who you ask) died anywhere from 200-8000 years ago, quite a long time by anyone's account.
Montmorency
05-29-2013, 06:53
If God, on top of existing and being omnipotent and omniscient, is to be understood as having goals in the sense we commonly use, and furthermore as having some experience for humanity as one of his goals, then we probably must accept that all that transpires is according to God's plan, or at least his approval, if it is indeed the case that every single event does not in fact have God as its immediate mover.
These musings can get unfathomably more complex than even that, and no matter what they will continue to have absolutely no justifiability.
"So?" You can't apply logic. Be logical. Now, if you decide to carry on to not understanding the illogical point to apply logic on faith, nothing I can do. There is no worst deaf than the ones who don’t want to hear.
*Waiting for Brenus to throw into the discussion the Transcendental proof of God*
:pop2:
...
While we wait.
What exactly is the resurrection and who will be resurrected? Is it physical?
If it is physical, then logically Heaven and Hell should be physical locations...
You are implying that God wishes to deceive us. Hardly something to expect from a loving God.
God lied to Abraham about his intentions, he also supposedly gave us natural inclinations, and then set the rules in opposition to them.
So I´ll take whatever he says with a grain of salt.
There is no worst deaf than the ones who don’t want to hear.
Says the atheist :laugh4:
Faith is something that some people have and some don't. It can't be bought nor forced on someone. You lack it, and you would like me to lose it as well. It's as if you're jealous of what I have. Don't be jealous.
If it is physical, then logically Heaven and Hell should be physical locations...
But you already knew that, right?
Hell, Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway)
Heaven, London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_(nightclub))
Greyblades
05-29-2013, 17:29
Faith is something that some people have and some don't. It can't be bought nor forced on someone. You lack it, and you would like me to lose it as well.
Right, except where you equivilate faith as some kind of privilage, athiests equivilate faith with delusion.
Right, except where you equivilate faith as some kind of privilage, athiests equivilate faith with delusion.
Atheists are free to equate faith with whatever they want. It doesn't bother me one bit. I do not seek to change their minds, and they cannot change mine.
HoreTore
05-29-2013, 17:40
Atheists are free to equate faith with whatever they want. It doesn't bother me one bit. I do not seek to change their minds, and they cannot change mine.
That's a rather ignorant statement.
Everything you encounter will influence your thinking.
The Stranger
05-29-2013, 17:43
Right, except where you equivilate faith as some kind of privilage, athiests equivilate faith with delusion.
...
Please don't presume to speak for me if you will say stuff like that.
Everything you encounter will influence your thinking.
It did. I was an atheist for the first 25 years of my life. Atheism is overrated.
Greyblades
05-29-2013, 17:58
...
Please don't presume to speak for me if you will say stuff like that.
I apologise for offending you. I should not have overgeneralised like that. What RVG sees as faith I see as delusion.
“Waiting for Brenus to throw into the discussion the Transcendental proof of God*” ?
“Faith is something that some people have and some don't. It can't be bought nor forced on someone. You lack it, and you would like me to lose it as well. It's as if you're jealous of what I have. Don't be jealous.”
Agree. Faith has nothing to do with knowledge, science or whatever you want. You believe or not, whatever the belief is.
Of course I don’t see as a lack of something but an added freedom, but there you go. Less chains to carry.
I don’t want anything for you, and in fact I do not care of what people believe if it is harmless.
I have sympathy for believers, struggling to adjust their beliefs and what they can see, twisting words, bending facts to try to adapt their beliefs to sciences and archaeology. I admire (secretly) their capacity to ignore what doesn’t fit (the Book of Gilgamesh being of the examples).
As to be jealous, I afraid you are projecting your own. So, be confident on this aspect, believe me on faith, I am happy as I am.
Strike For The South
05-29-2013, 20:26
I don't like being called an atheist because it lumps into a group I really don't want to be a part of.
Atheism in America is just anti christian with a little bit of blind faith in science.
The Stranger
05-29-2013, 20:30
thats what it is in most places...
Strike For The South
05-29-2013, 20:41
Not really. Atheism is simply lack of belief. I don't oppose Christianity anymore than I would oppose any other sort of spiritual movement.
The Stranger
05-29-2013, 21:10
i think you misunderstood me, perhaps because i didnt make myself clear, what i meant is that what you said about atheists in america is true for atheists in most other places (atleast from my experience). i agree that atheism itself doesnt really oppose christianity or any spiritual movement.
i also think you have the wrong definition of atheism if you think it is "simply a lack of belief" but i do not wish to go into that discussion again, ive done that a few threads back already.
Strike For The South
05-30-2013, 03:28
i think you misunderstood me, perhaps because i didnt make myself clear, what i meant is that what you said about atheists in america is true for atheists in most other places (atleast from my experience). i agree that atheism itself doesnt really oppose christianity or any spiritual movement.
i also think you have the wrong definition of atheism if you think it is "simply a lack of belief" but i do not wish to go into that discussion again, ive done that a few threads back already.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in dietes. More specifically my atheism is the rejection of the Abrahamic religions. I am still very much a "cultural" christian, I just can't say I believe and truly mean it anymore.
Greyblades
05-30-2013, 03:41
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in dietes.
That's not true, I know many athiests who watch thier calorie intake!
“That's not true, I know many athiests who watch thier calorie intake!” That is not faith; that is hope.
Papewaio
05-30-2013, 08:13
If it's a hot cross bun it's the greater of the three.
I love them, particularly mocha hot cross buns.
But you already knew that, right?
Hell, Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway)
Heaven, London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_(nightclub))
:sneaky:
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(John 14:2)
https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y230/asleka/Heaven_zpsf77a7233.png~original
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
(Isaiah 14:9)
https://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y230/asleka/Hell_zps1b7d4eaa.png~original
“Waiting for Brenus to throw into the discussion the Transcendental proof of God*” ?
Oups... my bad. I saw someone discussing Christianity, logic and rationality. I assumed the next step was a debate around this.
If it's a hot cross bun it's the greater of the three.
I love them, particularly mocha hot cross buns.
If I hadn't lived in Australia, I would not have known what Pape is talking about.
HopAlongBunny
05-30-2013, 09:16
Can't we just agree this is a step up for the church? Differing from say: Tinctor's Foul Manual
http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/Ideas/ID/2384888916/?sort=MostRecent
Can't we just agree this is a step up for the church?
like I already mentioned before the step was "explained/reversed" the next day....so not really.
HopAlongBunny
05-30-2013, 14:04
I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the hair-splitting between "redemption" and "salvation". As an atheist I guess it doesn't really matter, I was just thinking the glass was half-full...
Papewaio
05-30-2013, 20:30
If I hadn't lived in Australia, I would not have known what Pape is talking about.
Well I had to mix in love into the faith and belief debate to infer Corinthian's 13:13 and then cross reference :drummer: the caloric diety thread fork ~:smoking: with hot cross buns.
For those not in the know. Hot Cross buns are small sweet cube shaped buns served in Easter that are traditional cinnamon flavoured with currents or raisins in the dough with a cinamon or plainicing in the shape of a cross on top. The newer flavours are chocolate flavour instead of cinnamon with chocolate pieces instead of raisins and chocolate icing. The newest buns are coffee and chocolate (Mocha) flavoured dough with chocolate pieces and coffee icing. They sell, well like hot cakes ~:)
HopAlongBunny
06-01-2013, 13:41
OMG!
Mocha dough, chocolate chunks and coffee icing!!!
Pape for Pope! Australia rules!!!
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