Turkish Spring ?

[LeftEyeNine]

Primarily a peaceful demonstration to stop the demolishing of "Gezi Parkı" -a tiny park that connects to the infamous Taksim Square (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taksim_Square) that was to be replaced with a mall after its destruction- turned into a fierceful chain of events following the undiscriminated, overpowered, violently inproportionate handling from the police.

The mainstream Turkish media is almost silent, only because of the fear of their bosses from Recep Tayyip Erdogan (RTE), only a few not-so-much-popular independent and opposite media are giving live feeds from the massive uprising happening around Taksim right now, into its 20th hour now.

There are casualties -an Egyptian woman hit in the head with gas canister, another Turkish citizen of Palestinian origin under intensive care following his head hemorrhage surgery, Aylin trampled under a TOMA, there are unconfirmed acts of undiluted violence of people with losing their limbs and so on.

It went so far as that neighboring military foundations have been helping the protestors with first aid kits and gas masks while some of them have come into clash with police.

Meanwhile, CNN Intl., Al Jazeera, several Norwegian, Danish channels as well as Reuters are connecting Taksim to the world -Taksim, a place maybe the most exposable to widespread attention under normal circumstances, which are non-existent following the expected authoritarian management of RTE and his ruling party.

To whomever still thinks Turkey "progressed" in last 10 years:

UP YOUR ARSES.

WE'VE NEVER SEEN SUCH OPPRESSION IN OUR LIFETIMES. YEAH, EVEN YOUR COMMONLY-HATEFUL-FOR-YEARS MILITARY-BASED REGIME DID NOT GO THIS FAR.

SCREW YOUR MALLS, SOVIET-LIKE BLOCKS OF FABRICATED LIFESTYLES, HIGHWAYS AND S*IT.

WE WANT FREEDOM. TO DRINK, WANDER, F*CK AND SPEAK AS WE LIKE.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/31/us-turkey-protests-idUSBRE94U0J920130531

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/05/2013531112443894367.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/31/world/meast/istanbul-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


Shall this be a sparkle to the wildfire to burn down the agressively capitalist, USA-Israel-politics oriented mindless government the people have been deceived by being able to sink into debt freely -nothing else.

Oh no, I'm not buying yet another "even this connects to USA :/ ?" reaction. News have whoever are in hands with each other in shaping Middle East -as if we ever asked for it. Role models are easy to spot.

Thank you.

[LeftEyeNine]

Graphic picture blog from the rebellion. Click with care (http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/).

[Rhyfelwyr]

So this is discontent with an Islamist government and a desire for the secular alternative? If so, I guess in some ways this would make what is happening in Turkey the opposite for the various other Middle Eastern Springs.

What authoritarian measures have they been putting in place?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Obviously gun launched tear gas is unacceptable at a peaceful protest. I don't know who these people think they are to do that to innocent people anywhere in the world. How could a random traumatic brain injury have anything to do with justice?

Personally, I like Erdogan and AK, but if they had any part in this or in media suppression, they should be ashamed of themselves. There is always more work to do. Turkey is one of my top 3 favorite countries, I hope that they pull there head out with this banana republic mentality that they should have shed 20 years ago.

[Papewaio]

May the Green and Blues remain united until after they gain power.

[Fragony]

RIP lady, I hope they get the guy who did that

Edit, I heard the army is handing out gasmasks to protesters, what is happening here LEN? Did Ordugan piss the army off too much?

[HopAlongBunny]

Ouch!

I hope you are safe and sound. I thought the democratic process was supposed to make all this impossible; looks like theory needs a huge revision :shame:

[Empire*Of*Media]

i dont think it has connections with the Kurds does it ??!

but giving SPRING to this little revolt is exaggerating !!
any way i Hope whatever it be, free the Kurds from Turkish made Poverty and Oppression to !!

[Fragony]

Turkey is weird, after hours of talking with a Turkish friend (not about this) I was even more confused.

'That makes no sense at all!'

'Well yeah it doesn't'

It's interesting that they call it occupie, that's a rather western term. This may actually be good. Go Turks hadi hadi

[Empire*Of*Media]

why confused exactly ?
but for this matter, i dont think be that serious !
but anything comes for the Turks, will be against Kurds !! and ********** !!!! (Censored) !



Go Turks hadi hadi

:laugh4::laugh4:
Damn that was Funny !!! how do you know that word !!

[Fragony]

Relationship between the military and the government, I don't understand who's really in charge.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Turkey is led by Military !! at it was from 1921 ! and did too many massacres and forcible migrations to Kurds & Armenians & Assyrians.

i almost forgot: its weired interesting that a little revolt is broadcasting in media, but the 90 years of killings, or at least 22 years and still going-on, of killing the Kurdish civilians In streets and Jailing Kurdish Jurnalists & Activtists,(That now Turkey has the second place in the world of jailing Jurnalists) will not be shown in any media and news channel!! and the belgium government is ordered by Germany to attack & close a Kurdish Channel!! The Danish Too BANed another!! the Silence of EU about Terrors of Three Kurdish Peace Activitists in Paris !!
Does not this means a connection between Turkish government with EU & USA and Nato to censor the news and block some news to be broadcasted?!
ah, thanks EU & USA for your support of tyranny Dictatorship and Racism!
now that PKK has gone from turkey by the order of our Leader Abdulah Ujalan, to resolve the Kurdish issue and tell that they are not Terrorists, what can you do again ?!

[LeftEyeNine]

This is a thread about a strong protest of its own kind where people of every ethnicity, religion, ages and ideals or those with none at all are flocking to Istanbul, and if they can't they gather in their hometowns.

So please drag your personal agendas elsewhere.

I've checked all Turkish TV channels a few minutes before and it's all your "ordinary Sunday" while the protests are getting stronger reinforced with people from other cities whereas police forces are rumoured to have called for an extra 10.000 to "manage" the incidents. Social and international media are the only windows opening to the outside world right now. We've read news of certain police forces from other cities refusing to reinforce their "colleagues" in Istanbul and those that have quit their jobs.

The undercover cops are told to be smashing ATMs and damaging mass transportation vehicles so as to later condemn the protests and justify the rageful conduct of the police.

If you still like Erdogan and AKP, sorry but you and I have distances as I am a Turkish citizen living in this almost-hellhole.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is a thread about a strong protest of its own kind where people of every ethnicity, religion, ages and ideals or those with none at all are flocking to Istanbul, and if they can't they gather in their hometowns.

So please drag your personal agendas elsewhere.

I've checked all Turkish TV channels a few minutes before and it's all your "ordinary Sunday" while the protests are getting stronger reinforced with people from other cities whereas police forces are rumoured to have called for an extra 10.000 to "manage" the incidents. Social and international media are the only windows opening to the outside world right now. We've read news of certain police forces from other cities refusing to reinforce their "colleagues" in Istanbul and those that have quit their jobs.

The undercover cops are told to be smashing ATMs and damaging mass transportation vehicles so as to later condemn the protests and justify the rageful conduct of the police.

If you still like Erdogan and AKP, sorry but you and I have distances as I am a Turkish citizen living in this almost-hellhole.

Surely this is not all new, though. The Turkish Republic has always had a problem balancing liberty with a perceived need to enforce fraternity. Previously, that was aggressively enforced Secularism, now it appears the current government is enforcing Cronyism with an Islamic twist.

Which is obviously worse.

[Empire*Of*Media]

This is a thread about a strong protest of its own kind where people of every ethnicity, religion, ages and ideals or those with none at all are flocking to Istanbul, and if they can't they gather in their hometowns.

So please drag your personal agendas elsewhere.

I've checked all Turkish TV channels a few minutes before and it's all your "ordinary Sunday" while the protests are getting stronger reinforced with people from other cities whereas police forces are rumoured to have called for an extra 10.000 to "manage" the incidents. Social and international media are the only windows opening to the outside world right now. We've read news of certain police forces from other cities refusing to reinforce their "colleagues" in Istanbul and those that have quit their jobs.

The undercover cops are told to be smashing ATMs and damaging mass transportation vehicles so as to later condemn the protests and justify the rageful conduct of the police.

If you still like Erdogan and AKP, sorry but you and I have distances as I am a Turkish citizen living in this almost-hellhole.

i think it had relevance with your say about your racist Government !! it shows how much oppressor and Dictator & killer & Racist is your government!

and, really is that serious ?!! i mean people want reform or Government Change due to their peaceful demonstration oppressed & Suppressed ?! and will it spread to other regions, not just Istanbul?! really at last Turks have been sapientialed?! (sorry for bad english!)

and the matter of UNDERCOVER POLICE, EXACTLY LIKE 2009 REVOLT IN IRAN after elections, they have learned from Iranian regime's anti-revolt Police, where they smashed cars & public proprietors, and later then, they said it was from a little INSURGENCY (People!!) to legalize & Justify their suppression and crimes!! LOL !! dictators have many in common!

anyway, if any REAL peace movement is headed, it must be supported, as i do. but i doubt, Turkey is USA's strong ally, and USA will do anything at all cost not to lose it. so this is transient i think, as it was the Wall-Street Movement because of suppressions. you know, IMPERIALISM !

[ICantSpellDawg]

This is a thread about a strong protest of its own kind where people of every ethnicity, religion, ages and ideals or those with none at all are flocking to Istanbul, and if they can't they gather in their hometowns.

So please drag your personal agendas elsewhere.

I've checked all Turkish TV channels a few minutes before and it's all your "ordinary Sunday" while the protests are getting stronger reinforced with people from other cities whereas police forces are rumoured to have called for an extra 10.000 to "manage" the incidents. Social and international media are the only windows opening to the outside world right now. We've read news of certain police forces from other cities refusing to reinforce their "colleagues" in Istanbul and those that have quit their jobs.

The undercover cops are told to be smashing ATMs and damaging mass transportation vehicles so as to later condemn the protests and justify the rageful conduct of the police.

If you still like Erdogan and AKP, sorry but you and I have distances as I am a Turkish citizen living in this almost-hellhole.

Media brainwashing isn't fun, is it? I'm against that stuff in Turkey, where it is obviously worse, just like I'm against it here.

Media tends to report narrative, not news. If the narrative of liberal development is threatened, media decides how to ignore news to stay on message. Narrative is the enemy of news. Broadcast news is government/power propaganda and entertainment everywhere you go. Every moment that you spend watching it you are demolishing your understanding of the world.

[Husar]

Does not this means a connection between Turkish government with EU & USA and Nato to censor the news and block some news to be broadcasted?!
No. A lot of the real reasons you mention are why Turkey has not been allowed into the EU yet and some of them are mentioned by our politicians whenever the issue comes up. There's no need to make any conspiracies up. Please show me the censorship, I have quickly found some links that show there is none:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/tuerkei-zusammenstoesse-zwischen-polizei-und-demonstranten-in-istanbul-a-903192.html
http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/demonstrationen-neue-proteste-gegen-erdogans-regierung-in-istanbul_aid_1003156.html
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/tuerkei-die-wutbuerger-vom-gezi-park-12203940.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22739423

It's also on the radio today and that Turkey is the country with the most locked up journalists was also in one of LEN's various links.
Should be pretty obvious that there is no censoring going on.

And LEN, good luck with that. A sensibly democratic Turkey would be nice to see. :bow:

[The Stranger]

wait... did that guys posts get deleted by the admins? or did he do that himself?

[Rhyfelwyr]

wait... did that guys posts get deleted by the admins? or did he do that himself?

I was wondering that as well.

[rvg]

Turkish government needs a reminder that they are supposed to stick with Ataturk's principles. Deviation from those principles is bad for the republic.

[LeftEyeNine]

Protests have hit the peak while Erdogan still insists that "it is a malpractice of the main opposition party and that there are illegal organizations provocating the scene and THAT the mall would be built there no matter what".

Your typical dictator has spoken. This is the guy that called for Mobarak's, Gaddafi's and his latest nemesis Assad's downfall just because that "they do not listen to their nation's voices".

Al Jazeera has started to conduct interviews with the protestors and if you're looking for some truth, it is bound to be ugly.

The police was told to retreat at some certain point, after which the crowd filled in and that's when the police started salvos of tear gas and even agent orange (not confirmed yet) upon people. In what kind of democracy does the police plan to trap flagless, party-free, ideology-free, belief-free demonstration and drown them in chemical fumes ?

RTE may be an influential persona of the last decades however so were Hitler, Mussolini and Bush for their times.

The protests have spread to a lot of cities and in Ankara, it's getting worse by now.

[The Stranger]

ideology-free, belief-free

such people do not exist... it is a myth.

[LeftEyeNine]

such people do not exist... it is a myth.

Your statement does not still change the fact that people who:

are faithful Muslims who regularly pray for 5 times a day

are atheists to the bone

are fans of Galatasaray (champions)

are fans of Fenerbahçe (have a fan killed after the match against GS 2 weeks ago)

are liberals

are communists

are photographers only who were always apolitical

are die-hard Kemalists

travelled from hundreds of kilometres from other cities

have been fighting under a omnipotent cloud of pepper and orange gas for almost 2 days now. That's the spirit of it and that's all that matters.

[HopAlongBunny]

I hope all goes well. Unfortunately, violence is the refuge of those best armed.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Turkish government needs a reminder that they are supposed to stick with Ataturk's principles. Deviation from those principles is bad for the republic.

Uhm, I'm not too sure that would be a good idea. We're talking principles from an era in which a totalitarian (at least nominally) secular centre - right regime was considered a civilised and perfectly kosher approach to government.

That aside, the issue is deeper: as far as I am aware the Erdogan admin still has a significant support among Turkey simply for being the guys who made "religion" in politics more accepted and mainstream. So they can still count on a significant share of the conservative vote. That is not because Erdogan is necessarily a proper humble and honest Allah-fearing, law-abiding, 5-times-a-day worshiper of the faith; it is because religion has been repressed for years.

Turkey needs to find a more grown up way of dealing with the Turks that happen to hold different view points. :shrug:

[Papewaio]

I hope all goes well. Unfortunately, violence is the refuge of those best armed.

Violence is the refugee of those best supported.

Logistics and communications are probably key right now not firearms.

I do remember the riots in Indonesia 14 years ago when it was Uni students vs paramilitary police. The police where laying into the students with brute force then the marines turned up. The marines intervened and went straight at the police. Turns out with conscripted service that the marines are mainly graduates and have lot of friends who still are students.

I hope this goes more like a Fijian coup if it does come to that.

[Fragony]

I hope all goes well. Unfortunately, violence is the refuge of those best armed.

That's why I am kinda curious if it's true the army-folks are handing out gasmasks to protesters. As I understand it Erdogan has been dismantling the power of the supposedly fiercely secular army that is like a sword of Damocles for any government. It's also interesting the protestors call themselves an occupy-movement. It sure looks different from the lol@arabspring. What failed in Iran might just work in Turkey, I bet they are kinda nervous in Teheran right now.

[Brenus]

So, finally, the Arab Spring was not Arab, but just a fight for democracy, as all Lefties, true to Marxist analyse, were saying. It is against nepotism, even painted under the Religions.
And like in South America and in the Magreb, it started for nothing political, but a peaceful demonstration against a very trivial every day life problem and sparked the fire of possibly a Revolution.
"As dark that night might be, light never goes off and so small is the ember, it sets fire to the plain." J.L. Mélenchon, Leader of the Front de Gauche in France.

Demonstrations as well in Spain, Portugal, Greece, France and Germany against the "Troika" (E.U., I.F.M., E.C.B.). I would say massive, but to be fair, I don't know how many were demonstrating in Frankfurt.:2thumbsup:

[Empire*Of*Media]

the next is KURDISH Spring !!

but this spring, does not bring Islamic fundamentalism !! but Freedom and Independence from Tyranny, oppression, hatred, Genocide,.......& Racism !!

[Fragony]

lolololol @ quality media

They have removed it by now but it sits firmly in the cache, it's in Dutch but the ministry of truth knows, for a fact, that it aren't riots but festivities. And people wonder why I don't read quality newspapers or watch state-tv

https://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3293/nosteletekst1juni2013tu.jpg < is in Dutch so it's of no use to you if you don't speak it

[Fragony]

That's cute, total freak Erdogan promises a million counter-protesters can be rallied. This is getting really interesting. LEN & Mouz stay in your appartment or I am going to call your moms and tell her you are idiots.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Uhm, I'm not too sure that would be a good idea. We're talking principles from an era in which a totalitarian (at least nominally) secular centre - right regime was considered a civilised and perfectly kosher approach to government.

That aside, the issue is deeper: as far as I am aware the Erdogan admin still has a significant support among Turkey simply for being the guys who made "religion" in politics more accepted and mainstream. So they can still count on a significant share of the conservative vote. That is not because Erdogan is necessarily a proper humble and honest Allah-fearing, law-abiding, 5-times-a-day worshiper of the faith; it is because religion has been repressed for years.

Turkey needs to find a more grown up way of dealing with the Turks that happen to hold different view points. :shrug:

This seems to me to be the nub of it.

Ataturk essentially enforced secularism upon the collapsing Turkish Empire. He did it in a way that worked, and which has made Turkey into a functioning democracy with a thriving economy.

HOWEVER, Ataturk's reforms were never a long-term alternative to an Islamic State and until very recently no thought was given to disseminating the Elite's secular principles down to the general populace. So, in the end, you have the same problem as Iran had in the 1970's. Secularism has been enforced, and embraced by the middle class, but the working class and the rural poor are not really very secular.

The difference with Turkey is that, hopefully, the rural poor and working class recognise that the secular constitution is better than enforcement of Sharia.

I hear Erdogan has started restricting the sale of alcohol during the day - here's hoping that doesn't sit well with the majority brand of Turkish Islam.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I know that the protests are widespread now, but there have already been apologies and a recognition that the violence of the police needs to be investigated. More devolution of zoning authority would probably be a good solution. Calls for government abdication are absurd at this point.

Injuries over mass mobilization are unacceptable and the police need to be held accountable. Also, media ties with government need to be broken. Let's see if any changes can be made here.

[Empire*Of*Media]

I'd like the Islamist be gone in Turkey, but in Turkey there Is Muslims Party and Kamalists Party, means both of them are dictators. The Islamist does need much tell.
but the oppositions are the Ataturkists (kamalists),that its not fully opposite though, and have 60% of the government. and Ataturkists are secular, but are in fully hatred and extremely Racist, as they made great crimes against Kurds, Armenians, Assyrians. specially about Kurds that they even did not let Kurds speak with their ancient own language! or even Dress Kurdish!! (i dont say about jailing & Torturing and Killing Kurdish Civilians, because it will full the thread).

so i dont have too much hope of this revolt, its very limited, and they just want to put the Racists FULLY in the Government again, that is horribly Dangerous for the Kurds & Peace in the Turkey. (as The AKP is too, but a very bit better than kamalists!)

[Hax]

So, in the end, you have the same problem as Iran had in the 1970's. Secularism has been enforced, and embraced by the middle class, but the working class and the rural poor are not really very secular.

You can't really compare the two. The position of the clergy in Iran was (and is) completely​ different.

[HopAlongBunny]

But it does set the conditions for religion as a useful political lever.

I have no idea how it works in Turkey, but if you have a seat distribution that favors/panders to the rural religious base, policy outcomes will reflect that influence.
Does policy reflect the outcomes of a systemic bias, or is it indeed the "will of the majority" ?

[Beskar]

Seems to be working now.

[Fragony]

All fine here but my connection hardly works posting here right now. I would check for Ddoss attacks

[HoreTore]

I hear Erdogan has started restricting the sale of alcohol during the day - here's hoping that doesn't sit well with the majority brand of Turkish Islam.

I'd say that's a pretty good proposal, actually.

[Pannonian]

I'd say that's a pretty good proposal, actually.

You're only saying that because you're a religious fundie.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You can't really compare the two. The position of the clergy in Iran was (and is) completely​ different.

Yes, but a lot else is the same - the core point remains - we may like secularism as a way of life but when its enforced it makes the religious fundamentalists the voice of Liberty.


I'd say that's a pretty good proposal, actually.

Between 6am and 10pm?

As in, most of the day?

In Turkey?

That's a political statement, that is.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes, but a lot else is the same - the core point remains - we may like secularism as a way of life but when its enforced it makes the religious fundamentalists the voice of Liberty.

Idk why, but this made me rethink some things.

[Hax]

Fifty shades of Islamism. AKP =/= Khomeini =/= Muslim Brotherhood

But wait, there's more: the influence of secular and socialist movements during the Iranian Revolution of 1979 has very often been downplayed or forgotten, the former mostly by representatives of the current regime, the second mostly by people everywhere from about 1982 onwards.

The way you constructed your post is also rather misleading, as it gives the idea that the transition from the Osman state to the Turkish republic was a sudden shift from a so-called "Islamic" state to a secular republic, while in fact, the Caliphate had been experimenting with secularist concepts from the early 19th century onwards (cf. Tanzimat, Young Ottomans, etc.).

Additionally, strong economic growth in Turkey didn't really kick off until well after the 1980's.

I'm very much opposed to the AKP and Erdogan and his lackeys for many different reasons, but in you post there are a lot of things that are either wilfully ignored or just overlooked, which leads to a very flawed analysis of the recent history of Turkey, and as such to something of a misleading argument.

[Sir Moody]

Yes, but a lot else is the same - the core point remains - we may like secularism as a way of life but when its enforced it makes the religious fundamentalists the voice of Liberty.

that depends very much on how it is enforced and how far you take the definition of secularism - there are 3 "models" which have been used at one point or another - the US model which was unenforced and has ended up in name only, the French model which is enforced by law to a point and the model Turkey used which was uncompromising and enforced by the Military - I think we can all agree the happy medium is somewhere between the US and French

It also depends on what the "religious fundamentalists" are asking for - to be heard and have their opinions considered, then yes, to have only their opinions considered, then no.



Between 6am and 10pm?

As in, most of the day?

In Turkey?

That's a political statement, that is.

yes that is a blatant pro Islamist move...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Fifty shades of Islamism. AKP =/= Khomeini =/= Muslim Brotherhood

But wait, there's more: the influence of secular and socialist movements during the Iranian Revolution of 1979 has very often been downplayed or forgotten, the former mostly by representatives of the current regime, the second mostly by people everywhere from about 1982 onwards.

The way you constructed your post is also rather misleading, as it gives the idea that the transition from the Osman state to the Turkish republic was a sudden shift from a so-called "Islamic" state to a secular republic, while in fact, the Caliphate had been experimenting with secularist concepts from the early 19th century onwards (cf. Tanzimat, Young Ottomans, etc.).

Additionally, strong economic growth in Turkey didn't really kick off until well after the 1980's.

I'm very much opposed to the AKP and Erdogan and his lackeys for many different reasons, but in you post there are a lot of things that are either wilfully ignored or just overlooked, which leads to a very flawed analysis of the recent history of Turkey, and as such to something of a misleading argument.

I'm deliberately simplifying, Hax, because I'm a student of religious oppression and I'm looking at the opposing forces at play rather than the specific players.

Until recently headscarves were banned in public buildings in Turkey - a Kamalist statement that Turkey is not as Islamic (read: Arab) country. Given that most Western men find Islamic headcovering at best mildly offensive this was applauded and the reversal of the ban was met with some disquiet.

Here's the point: When wearing a headscarf becomes a political statement against the authoritarians you are failing to secularise the country.

This is what the AKP capitalised on - the same as the Mullahs in Iran.

[Hax]

I believe I can largely follow what you're getting at.

However, I still find the comparison between the AKP and the Iranian Shi'ite clergy rather troublesome: apart from the points mentioned above, it portrays the Shi'ite clergy as a more-or-less homogeneous group of conservatives, which isn't really true (compare Ahmadinejad from 8 years ago with someone as Ali Shariati or (more recently) Mehdi Karroubi). There is an interesting letter that I will try to localise (there is an English translation) between two Iranian clerics talking about the social contract.

[Strike For The South]

I believe I can largely follow what you're getting at.

However, I still find the comparison between the AKP and the Iranian Shi'ite clergy rather troublesome: apart from the points mentioned above, it portrays the Shi'ite clergy as a more-or-less homogeneous group of conservatives, which isn't really true (compare Ahmadinejad from 8 years ago with someone as Ali Shariati or (more recently) Mehdi Karroubi). There is an interesting letter that I will try to localise (there is an English translation) between two Iranian clerics talking about the social contract.

Damn your nuance.

[Brenus]

“the influence of secular and socialist movements during the Iranian Revolution of 1979 has very often been downplayed or forgotten” They were deliberately left to die. At theses times, the fear was not Religious Extremism (as most of the Westerners thought it was just the equivalence of Conservatives) but the Lefties. In Iran, Khomeini was seen as the rampart against a possible Mossedegh. Remember that Oliver North (so Reagan’s administration) had no problem is selling weapons to Iran to arm the Contras in Nicaragua.

[HoreTore]

Between 6am and 10pm?

As in, most of the day?

In Turkey?

That's a political statement, that is.

Of course it's a political statement, how can a proposal for a new law be anything else...?

Alcohol restrictions are good in my book.

[Fisherking]

Of course it's a political statement, how can a proposal for a new law be anything else...?

Alcohol restrictions are good in my book.

So, you have no problem dictating how others should live their lives?

Thanks for sharing that.

[HoreTore]

So, you have no problem dictating how others should live their lives?

Thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, exactly.

:rollseyes:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Of course it's a political statement, how can a proposal for a new law be anything else...?

Alcohol restrictions are good in my book.

Ah, so you hate Jews.

Wait - that statement is as silly as yours.

[HoreTore]

Ah, so you hate Jews.

Wait - that statement is as silly as yours.

I have no idea what you're on about, but I'm not sure I care.


Why are Alcohol restrictions good in your book? It seems like prohibition of all kinds is doomed to failure, and has side-effects ranging from an increase in organized crime to a total subversion of large parts of your government in the name of continuing prohibition. I'd like to know why you think the opposite could be true.

I'm not talking about prohibition, I'm talking about restrictions.

There's quite a number of them here coupled with hefty taxation, and apart from the occasional shopping trips to Sweden(for a buttload of other things as well though) and what our Polish carpenters bring from home, there's next to no organized smuggling in alcohol.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have no idea what you're on about, but I'm not sure I care.

It's a pro-Islamic measure, playing to the sensitivities of Muslims against those of Christians and Jews.

Keep up.


I'm not talking about prohibition, I'm talking about restrictions.

There's quite a number of them here coupled with hefty taxation, and apart from the occasional shopping trips to Sweden(for a buttload of other things as well though) and what our Polish carpenters bring from home, there's next to no organized smuggling in alcohol.

Ahem - Norwegian Sailors.

[HoreTore]

It's a pro-Islamic measure, playing to the sensitivities of Muslims against those of Christians and Jews.

Keep up.

Do I care?

A good idea is a good idea.

If an anti-religious(make it a muslim one if you want) wanted to piss off the religious people in the country by proposing gay marriage, I would still support the measure whole-heartily even if the aim of the proposal is to raise a certain finger to a certain group in a divide and conquer-scheme.

Because it's still a damned good idea.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Erdogan is not that True Islamic that you think !!

so by all these things against your Anti ISLAMIC government, you want another Ultra-Racist criminals Kamalists be in the full of Government ?!

[HoreTore]

I guess I can get behind taxing alcohol more. Quite frankly, it needs to be treated exactly like a recreational drug and not a slightly more interesting soda pop. That would at least put people in the right frame of mind when considering what other drugs should be allowed for recreation, and also goes to show what the government can get out of a heavily taxed recreational drug (alcohol profits and the taxes from those profits are astronomical in America).

Completely outlawing something to get rid of its negative effects - prohibition - never works. Regulating it with a carrot-and-whip-scheme, on the other hand....

I don't like the idea of it being used as a means of getting tax money, however.


Erdogan is not that True Islamic that you think !!

so by all these things against your Anti ISLAMIC government, you want another Ultra-Racist criminals Kamalists be in the full of Government ?!

When you think the world can't get any weirder, just remember that you can always watch the petty feuding of the locals of some random backwater nobody cares about.

[Empire*Of*Media]

When you think the world can't get any weirder, just remember that you can always watch the petty feuding of the locals of some random backwater nobody cares about.

excuse me i didnt get that! too much hard English !:shrug:

[Papewaio]

When you think the world can't get any weirder, just remember that you can always watch the petty feuding of the locals of some random backwater nobody cares about.

Considering the power scale of the late Ottoman Empire this quote could be in Mandarin in five hundred years talking about Texans...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do I care?

A good idea is a good idea.

If an anti-religious(make it a muslim one if you want) wanted to piss off the religious people in the country by proposing gay marriage, I would still support the measure whole-heartily even if the aim of the proposal is to raise a certain finger to a certain group in a divide and conquer-scheme.

Because it's still a damned good idea.

The Autobarns were a good idea too - as were Hitler's other industrial projects - but it was still stupid of Western Europe to support him, wasn't it.

Down with Islamists and all their Ilk, says I.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Down with Islamists and all their Ilk, says I.

:2thumbsup:

[HoreTore]

The Autobarns were a good idea too - as were Hitler's other industrial projects - but it was still stupid of Western Europe to support him, wasn't it.

I would never support extensive road construction, so no points on that example.

Also, it may surprise you that you can actually support opinions, ideas and efforts made by people you disagree completely with. But I guess that's hard to grasp for someone with a black and white world-view.


Down with Islamists and all their Ilk, says I.

I oppose all religious influence on society on principle, have I ever said anything that would make you think otherwise?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I would never support extensive road construction, so no points on that example.

Also, it may surprise you that you can actually support opinions, ideas and efforts made by people you disagree completely with. But I guess that's hard to grasp for someone with a black and white world-view.

I oppose all religious influence on society on principle, have I ever said anything that would make you think otherwise?

But this policy is motivated by Islamic principles, with the objective of strengthening Islam's hand in Turkish society - so by your own argument, you should reject this policy on principle. As I do.

[Montmorency]

But I guess that's hard to grasp for someone with a black and white world-view.

But yours is black-and-white as well? :confused:

[Fragony]

Ordugan threatens he can mobilise a million counterprotesters apparantly. The guy is truly a lunatic.

[Fragony]

Don't take it for a fact, I don't know if it's true

[Ironside]

I
I'm not talking about prohibition, I'm talking about restrictions.

There's quite a number of them here coupled with hefty taxation, and apart from the occasional shopping trips to Sweden(for a buttload of other things as well though) and what our Polish carpenters bring from home, there's next to no organized smuggling in alcohol.

With those times, it's a de facto prohibition for the population outside students. It's really a law made to create illegal bypassing.

[Fisherking]

I back LEN’s view on this. I hope he pipes in soon again on it.

If LEN thinks the Prime Minister is a Truly UnRepentitive Dictator, I will take him at his word.

He dose seem to still have a support base among the more staunchly religious of Islam, who say they agree with the protesters over some of the issues, but oppose them because of the looting, vandalism, and calling the PM names.

Earlier, LEN said that he worried that was being done by undercover police. Which could be the case.

Local reporting is restricted because journalists get locked up for statements not friendly to the government. So there you have it.

[Montmorency]

I'm not impressed with these protests. A few tens of thousands of young people, secularists and environmentalists.

Erdogan still has the support of the majority of the country. His little quip could perhaps be seen as a test of the waters. That hundreds of thousands did not mobilize in response to the provocation is telling.

The upcoming local elections will show what's what.

[LeftEyeNine]

What Fragony told you is true. Rather than trying to remedy the situation, he kept his long head high -if that's what he thinks he's doing- and, first, declared that he could mobilise a million (sheep) if he wanted to and a few days later, if not right the next day, he declared that he was barely being able to "keep the 50% at their homes" (dogs). That's how he sees his voters. And then he left for a 4-day trip to Northern African countries. Moroccan king refused to meet him and today we've heard that the strongest opposition leader in Tunisia Hamma Hammami apparently rejected the dinner to join RTE saying that "they wouldn't join the feast of despots and conspirators".

@Montmorency (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/member.php?u=74339)

The country has never seen such an enduring and widely embraced series of protests. Here in Ankara, police are still very harsh on the protesters in Kızılay (heart of Ankara). People have started to stomp their cars' horns and went out to the streets as it rains with their pots and spoons clinging them in the street I'm living at right now as it hit 9 o'clock p.m..

The sole reason the government couldn't manage and handle the situation like it always could is since that they couldn't paint it in a certain color they'd find easy to target (Ergenekon (the unconfirmed terrorist organization), CHP (the main opposition party, ideologically too) etc.) and find the right public and media support to put it down.

Because the protesting community is so colorful that they are organizing free markets, free food, even a library, all in the middle of Taksim. On which earth, could I have seen protestors cleaning the place they have demonstrated in after the clashes ended ?

If the protests were one-sided, it wouldn't meet with such unparallelled support and would die out eventually. It didn't, it isn't.

Such pressure even brought the your-normal-lap-dog mainstream media to be broadcasting unbiased about the protests for 2 days now.

This feels like power now, doesn't it ?

[Fragony]

Bloggosphere once again shows to be more reliable than MSM. This is insanity.

[HoreTore]

But this policy is motivated by Islamic principles, with the objective of strengthening Islam's hand in Turkish society - so by your own argument, you should reject this policy on principle. As I do.

I consider proposals on the actual merits of the proposal, not its theoretical or real aims and wishes. Thus, I can be able to appreciate it when someone I really disagree with comes with proposals I actually like.

It makes me sad that you are so caught up in your "us vs them" worldview that you are incapable of separating the ball from the man when considering ideas and proposals.


I oppose Jesus' message. That does not in any way whatsoever mean that I oppose Christians when they want to give to the poor because they believe that Jesus wants them to. I consider giving to the poor a good thing, and so I consider Christians who give to the poor because of it as good. I honestly expected you to be someone capable of seeing enough nuances to realize that. Am I wrong?

[Montmorency]

It makes me sad that you are so caught up in your "us vs them" worldview that you are incapable of separating the ball from the man when considering ideas and proposals.

It seems you have difficulty placing policies in a wider context. Policies can never be taken in and of themselves - they must be judged within the wider network of government action.

Thus, you would never notice should supporting an opponent's Policy X contribute to the implementation of the Policies A, B, and C, which you might happen to disagree strongly with.

Thus are the arrogant reduced to sequaciousness.

[HoreTore]

It seems you have difficulty placing policies in a wider context. Policies can never be taken in and of themselves - they must be judged within the wider network of government action.

Thus, you would never notice should supporting an opponent's Policy X contribute to the implementation of the Policies A, B, and C, which you might happen to disagree strongly with.

Thus are the arrogant reduced to sequaciousness.

So what you're saying is that I cannot appreciate a Christian who gives to the poor, because I disagree with Jesus?

That's absurd.

[Rhyfelwyr]

So what you're saying is that I cannot appreciate a Christian who gives to the poor, because I disagree with Jesus?

That's absurd.

And you accuse PVC of lacking nuance?

[HoreTore]

And you accuse PVC of lacking nuance?

Well, I'll have to elaborate then. Following montmorency's recipe:

Mot christians who give to the poor, do so because of two, among several other, things: obedience to the words of whom they consider the representation of Good(Jesus)* and secondly wanting to spread the word and good of Jesus(as evidenced by most christian charities also actively or passively engaging in missionary work of some sort).

Now, when we transfer that to montys recipe, X will be "giving to the poor", while A and B will be "obedience to God" and "wanting to spread the faith". I strongly oppose both A and B. But should that have an effect on my judgement of X? I say no. X is something I already hold dear, and thus it will be deemed good regardless of the fact that it is caused by A and may lead to B.

Thus, I can't really see why I should flabbergast Erdogan for implementing policy X, which I agree with, because of eventual A's and B's.





*I know this statement could be said in a zillion ways(already accepting jesus leads one to do good, wanting to please the Lord, etc etc), and this is what I ended up with. If it offends, please rephrase it instead of charging the red flag...

[Montmorency]

So what you're saying is that I cannot appreciate a Christian who gives to the poor, because I disagree with Jesus?

That's absurd.

No. That clearly has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

I'll give you a simple example.

A ruler commands that all citizens be issued national ID cards.

You like that sort of thing, yes? Even though you don't support the leader, who is, say, a fascist?

Well, would you still persist in viewing the policy itself as good if that leader were to then command that all non-military citizens with ID numbers ending in a 0 are to be terminated?

It would be desirable for every citizen of a state to be tracked by some form of national identification in your world-view (I guess). Yet, surely you wouldn't similarly favor a wanton decimation of the whole nation? This is the conflict - by not viewing this single policy in a network of policies rather than in itself, you favor this one policy as a blind man. After all, it would be impossible to kill off all those with an ID# ending in 0 if there are no national IDs, right?

Think about it. I use this rather crude example because I'm fairly certain that this one thing - national IDs - you do support, and I don't have the patience for snide irrelevances such as 'Well, I wouldn't support that so the example is meaningless'. Substitute alternative scenarios according to your self-knowledge...

[Montmorency]

Now, when we transfer that to montys recipe, X will be "giving to the poor", while A and B will be "obedience to God" and "wanting to spread the faith". I strongly oppose both A and B. But should that have an effect on my judgement of X? I say no. X is something I already hold dear, and thus it will be deemed good regardless of the fact that it is caused by A and may lead to B.

You can only be comfortable maintaining this position because you also believe that Christian charity is not effective in spreading the faith - or at least not alarmingly so. Get it?

[HoreTore]

No. That clearly has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

I'll give you a simple example.

A ruler commands that all citizens be issued national ID cards.

You like that sort of thing, yes? Even though you don't support the leader, who is, say, a fascist?

Well, would you still persist in viewing the policy itself as good if that leader were to then command that all non-military citizens with ID numbers ending in a 0 are to be terminated?

It would be desirable for every citizen of a state to be tracked by some form of national identification in your world-view (I guess). Yet, surely you wouldn't similarly favor a wanton decimation of the whole nation? This is the conflict - by not viewing this single policy in a network of policies rather than in itself, you favor this one policy as a blind man. After all, it would be impossible to kill off all those with an ID# ending in 0 if there are no national IDs, right?

Think about it. I use this rather crude example because I'm fairly certain that this one thing - national IDs - you do support, and I don't have the patience for snide irrelevances such as 'Well, I wouldn't support that so the example is meaningless'. Substitute alternative scenarios according to your self-knowledge...

I see no problem in supporting national ID cards(which I honestly consider a requirement for any nation aspiring to the term "civilized"), while at the same time opposing whacking every tenth citizen.

[Montmorency]

I see no problem in supporting national ID cards(which I honestly consider a requirement for any nation aspiring to the term "civilized"), while at the same time opposing whacking every tenth citizen.

1. National IDs
2. Decimation

1 is good, 2 is bad and perhaps obliterates the "good" of 1.

If 1 follows, so does 2. If 1 is averted, so is 2.

Is it sensible to support 1 in this scenario?

[HoreTore]

You can only be comfortable maintaining this position because you also believe that Christian charity is not effective in spreading the faith - or at least not alarmingly so. Get it?

No.

Actually, I consider charity works to be the main PR thing for christianity - I have never considered those halleluja meetings effective at much more than maintaining the resolve of the already converted.

[HoreTore]

1. National IDs
2. Decimation

1 is good, 2 is bad and perhaps obliterates the "good" of 1.

If 1 follows, so does 2. If 1 is averted, so is 2.

Is it sensible to support 1 in this scenario?

Why is 2 averted if 1 is averted? Why does 2 follow if 1 is enacted? I see no real automatic relation between the two.

[Montmorency]

Forget the relative - in absolute terms, do you see Christian charity as bringing a significant (i.e. dangerous) number of converts to the religion?


Why is 2 averted if 1 is averted? Why does 2 follow if 1 is enacted? I see no real automatic relation between the two.

2 entails the execution of those bearing a certain type of ID. If there are no IDs, this policy can not be imagined.

[HoreTore]

Forget the relative - in absolute terms, do you see Christian charity as bringing a significant (i.e. dangerous) number of converts to the religion?

Most definitely. Without the redistributive side of Christianity, I don't see how it could have very many followers today.


2 entails the execution of those bearing a certain type of ID. If there are no IDs, this policy can not be imagined.

....so this hypothetical dictator is completely unable to come up with a different way of whacking every tenth citizen....?

He'll already have the birth certificates, btw. Lot's of numbers on those, take your pick.

[LeftEyeNine]

Sorry but what is this all about you're doing here ?

[Montmorency]

I'll make it very general: do you believe there are any credible (i.e. possible in the 'real world') scenarios in which you might like a policy in itself, revile its proponent - and ultimately decide that the policy is not worth favoring because the consequences with respect to the rest of the proponent's program may outweigh the positive aspects?

[HoreTore]

I'll make it very general: do you believe there are any credible (i.e. possible in the 'real world') scenarios in which you might like a policy in itself, revile its proponent - and ultimately decide that the policy is not worth favoring because the consequences with respect to the rest of the proponent's program may outweigh the positive aspects?

Now you've changed my premise.

My statement was that I could consider policy X as good, even though I dislike A and B.

Now you're asking whether policy X is worth favouring, because of dislike of A and B.


That's a major change.

And to relate it to Erdogan's proposal, one would then have to prove that imposing alcohol restrictions will lead to negative A's and B's, ones which will outweigh the positives of alcohol restrictions.

But even then, my answer would be that alcohol restrictions are good and thus should be implemented, and that one would have to come up with ways of countering any eventual A's and B's, just like we're coming up with ways of countering the works of Christian missionaries, without wanting to shut down christian charities.

[Montmorency]

Now you're asking whether policy X is worth favouring, because of dislike of A and B.

That's what we were talking about the whole time!


And to relate it to Erdogan's proposal

Nah, I wouldn't do that. I was getting at what I saw as an -


It makes me sad that you are so caught up in your "us vs them" worldview that you are incapable of separating the ball from the man when considering ideas and proposals.

- imprudent perspective to bring to these considerations. That is, I got the feeling that you were separating the man from the rest of his proposals. You see it?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I consider proposals on the actual merits of the proposal, not its theoretical or real aims and wishes. Thus, I can be able to appreciate it when someone I really disagree with comes with proposals I actually like.

It makes me sad that you are so caught up in your "us vs them" worldview that you are incapable of separating the ball from the man when considering ideas and proposals.


I oppose Jesus' message. That does not in any way whatsoever mean that I oppose Christians when they want to give to the poor because they believe that Jesus wants them to. I consider giving to the poor a good thing, and so I consider Christians who give to the poor because of it as good. I honestly expected you to be someone capable of seeing enough nuances to realize that. Am I wrong?

That depends - plenty of people (including you) have criticised Christian charities for being openly Christian, and therefore "preaching" with the charity.

This policy is designed to favour extreme Muslim theology and grind everyone else, minorities and secularists, down at heel. That is not only the objective - but the net effect.

You say ID cards are important for a civilised society - ok - what if the purpose of those ID cards is to more accurately identify Jews and Gypsies on the street?

That's exactly what the Nazi's used them for.

Do you approve of the Nazi use of ID cards, or would it have been better if that policy had not been implemented.

And lets be clear - I'm talking practice, not theory, if you want theory from me start an abstract debate - here I'm concerned with what's happening on the ground in Turkey, and real-life comparisons as they relate to the situation.

[Beskar]

Turkish Media:
https://i.imgur.com/EUsabdM.jpg

[HoreTore]

That depends - plenty of people (including you) have criticised Christian charities for being openly Christian, and therefore "preaching" with the charity.

I have never critized charistian charities for their aid. If you believe I have, I demand proof. What I do criticize, is their missionary side. That is something I have no respect for. However, why should that diminish my respect for the good they do? Why must I consider their good acts as bad, because I consider the net result of their good acts as bad?

I do the same with Erdogan. I have no problem agreeing with him on alcohol restrictions, while at the same time disagreeing with his intended aims and consequences.

[Empire*Of*Media]

do you think this protests can reach anywhere??! or it will lefted within days or only for that Park ?!?!

[HopAlongBunny]

My cynical take on this is the park is toast.

If the developers are removing trees, money has already changed hands; the development will occur come hell or high water.
The head-of-state seems quite content to make it happen and face the electorate; confidence or just "worth it" from a monetary perspective makes no difference.

[LeftEyeNine]

Whole country is ANXIOUS over the arrival of their (in a grammatical sense) PM, the stock exchange plummeted over his latest salvos.

https://twitter.com/cemm/status/342618858466717696/photo/1

He still insists on the destruction and construction of the buildings in question as well as declaring in the sense of "deputy PM has apologized, so what ?".

Also, the latest conspiracy is about the detention and deportation of Erasmus programme foreign exchange students taking part in the protests claiming they are operatives of other countries' secret agencies.

Kızılay (Ankara) is about to go to hell today. We are hearing of even fiercer oppression from police forces.

Reuters link about his salvos from Tunisia: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/06/us-turkey-protests-idUSBRE94U0J920130606

[Fragony]

Whole country is ANXIOUS over the arrival of their (in a grammatical sense) PM, the stock exchange plummeted over his latest salvos.

https://twitter.com/cemm/status/342618858466717696/photo/1

He still insists on the destruction and construction of the buildings in question as well as declaring in the sense of "deputy PM has apologized, so what ?".

Also, the latest conspiracy is about the detention and deportation of Erasmus programme foreign exchange students taking part in the protests claiming they are operatives of other countries' secret agencies.

Kızılay (Ankara) is about to go to hell today. We are hearing of even fiercer oppression from police forces.

Reuters link about his salvos from Tunisia: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/06/us-turkey-protests-idUSBRE94U0J920130606

Truly a cat cornered, this guy is insane. The apoligy was for police brutality for hammering down a peacefull protest not for what followed afterwards. Police officer was bonjoured from a bridge and didn't make it. Getting scary.

[LeftEyeNine]

Yeah a police officer fell from a bridge chasing away protestors and lost his life today. Tragic.

Ali İsmail Korkmaz (19), in Eskisehir, got beaten to coma following the impact of injuries to his head by undercover cops 5 of whom cornered him in a street, after him running away from tear gas.

http://www.cnnturk.com/2013/guncel/06/06/biber.gazindan.kacti.hayati.karardi/710868.0/index.html

[Fragony]

I am kinda sceptical, I suffered worse injuries riding pony's, not so sure about this he only has a scratch

[HopAlongBunny]

You realize of course that beating someone into a coma w/o leaving a mark is something you cannot fail to learn in a security job.

[Papewaio]

You can get internal head trauma from a pillow fight. It's the porridge rattling around inside that counts.

[Fragony]

You realize of course that beating someone into a coma w/o leaving a mark is something you cannot fail to learn in a security job.

I have some experience with hitting people in the face (for sports), it can't have been very hard hits, his nose would have been broken, and a hard hit on the forehead there would have bleeded really badly. Not saying it isn't true but I am kinda sceptical this put him into a coma

[HoreTore]

I have some experience with hitting people in the face (for sports), it can't have been very hard hits, his nose would have been broken, and a hard hit on the forehead there would have bleeded really badly. Not saying it isn't true but I am kinda sceptical this put him into a coma

While I haven't been punched so hard I've ended up in a coma, I've been hit hard enough to black out. Drunks only gave me a bump the morning after, I'm sure the pro's can hit harder and leave even less of a mark...

[Fragony]

While I haven't been punched so hard I've ended up in a coma, I've been hit hard enough to black out. Drunks only gave me a bump the morning after, I'm sure the pro's can hit harder and leave even less of a mark...

Look at the lines from the nose to the left of his forehead, he was hit with stick or a rod but not very hard. He got another one on his forehead but none too serious on the right. If you get hit hard on the nose there it will break, getting hit hard on the forehead there is absolute certainty that you will bleed a lot. Not so sure about this, propaganda is always mutual

[LeftEyeNine]

Same him landed around 1.00 AM (GMT+3) today.

Highlights from his speech:

* He accuses "interest lobby" for messing with the stock exchange

* He is against vandalism and he dreams of a youth with their laptops in their hand instead of pots & pans (referring to the protests people do by clinging them)

* AKP is being targeted since they could succeed what others couldn't and that "they are doing what they couldn't do through the ballot box, through ways out of the ballot box".

* He is the PM of 76 million not the 50%.

* He says "3 people died for 15 trees".

* He also denotes "police did what they had to". Demands to withdraw the police forces are meaningless because this country is not "some inn everybody passes through".

* Excessive use of power would be investigated however "a police chief who has a baby unborn yet is dead now". Many people were wounded most of whom are police officers. Cities, shops were looted, Turkish flags were burned.

* People calling themselves politicians, artists, journalists irresponsibly committed ultimate forms of hate, discrimination, lawlessness and provocation.

* Turkey's progress could not be halted by any other power than Allah's.

* The youth would be examples to those in Middle East and Africa, won't be fooled by "tricks like these", will think big, take huge steps towards the future.

[LeftEyeNine]

Also, although the mass transportation in Istanbul would be prevented on 1st of May, the metro and metrobus services were running until 4.00 am in the morning.

[Fragony]

Sounds like he is going out of his way to put himself in the same boat as Arab Spring leaders. This guy's good at digging his own hole.

Yep. Kinda funny how the eurocrats are united in silence. Even the most hardcore europhile should understand by now that Turkey does not belong in the EU. Succes my Turkish friends you have my full sympathy, cheering you on in Dutchland

And oh were the europhiles and islamphiles upset when Geert Wilders called Erdogan a total freak. Wrong as usual.

[Sir Moody]

Sounds like he is going out of his way to put himself in the same boat as Arab Spring leaders. This guy's good at digging his own hole.

hmmm maybe but it sounds more likely to me he is relying on the "tyranny of the majority"

unlike the other middle eastern leaders he really was elected so he knows he has public backing - he seems to be working under the assumption the people on the streets are the minority who wouldn't have voted for him anyway and assumes his primary support still has his back...

time will tell I guess if the elections come round and it looks like they were rigged then its the same boat with new colours...

[a completely inoffensive name]

Sorry but what is this all about you're doing here ?

Monty is trying to explain to HoreTore that policies are actually tied to agendas, agendas which cannot be ignored if you want to judge a policy unless you want to find yourself/ your country in a place you didn't imagine it would be in. HoreTore continues to assert that policies just appear out of the political aether and can only be judged by their individual merits, separated from their origins.

When the Norwegian Hitler comes to hand everyone an ID card, HoreTore will shake his hand and say thank you because when N.H. comes to take him to the prison camp, HoreTore thinks that he can just vote him out of office at that point.

[Brenus]

“When the Norwegian Hitler comes to hand everyone an ID card, HoreTore will shake his hand and say thank you because when N.H. comes to take him to the prison camp, HoreTore thinks that he can just vote him out of office at that point.”
Err, when the French ally (and traitor to his country) Pétain to Hitler, France had ID and it didn’t help to the deportation as the French ID have no record of religion or political affiliation. Mine in 1590218500185. 1 is I am a male. 59 is I born in 1959. 02, is February, 185 is the reference of the village where I born, 001 is the place on the register, 85 being an administrative key added after WW2.
What this reference tells you is I am the first baby registered in February 1959, male, born the 12 of this month, in Dompierre Sur Veyle (Ain).
Funny enough, it was debates in France prior the WW2 and the German invasion followed by the Occupation to add 1 figure for the religion (for stats). It was rejected as the French Laws forbidden it (1904: Separation between State and Religion) and by the Constitution (None can be discriminated regarding his/her origin, race or religion).

So, all depend on what a State intend to do with the laws, and you have to be careful about what can be done with repressive laws.

When in UK, it was forbidden to sell alcohol after in a certain times in pubs, or when it is still forbidden for some categories of adults to buy alcohol in supermarkets, when there are call for increasing artificially the prices of alcohol, nobody here (UK) fears for Democracy. We have others concerns about D. Cameron’s attacks on Democracy, but not this one.

[LeftEyeNine]

There and back again.

I may post a more informative one later on. I have other stuff to write for now.

[a completely inoffensive name]

So, all depend on what a State intend to do with the laws, and you have to be careful about what can be done with repressive laws.

SO in other words....it depends on the agenda that the policy is tied to.

And HoreTore gave this post a thanks?

[Fragony]

LOL this is too funny, someone has a really good sense of detail

http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/erdogansoeptgroot.html

[LeftEyeNine]

You want to get a hint of what's going on indeed ?

9488

Click for the larger version.

That's a BDP (pro-Kurdish party) partisan dashing hand in hand with someone who has an Atatürk flag in his hand while an apparently MHP (nationalist party) supporter makes the very common hand gesture unique to them.

It's Tuesday and harsh police intervention restarted. Whole area is bombed with tear gas and soaked in water with TOMAs (Vehicle for Intervention of Social Incidents). The gas has so heavily been used that people living in 5 km distance from Taksim square report burning sensation in their noses.

[HopAlongBunny]

Unfortunately, this seems to be taking on an "Us" vs" Them" narrative.

Polarize issue and justify whatever occurs as "Defending Us" against terror; I think we have seen this before...

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/06/201361111245916696.html

[LeftEyeNine]

Check the live CNN Int'l coverage through here: http://www.wwhdtvs.com/cnn-international-live-stream/

[HopAlongBunny]

Referendum proposal. Democracy in action or end-run?

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/06/201361219110174770.html

How they structure the referendum will be interesting. Local? Where all parties with an interest can vote. National? Where most have no stake in issue. I guess it depends on whether you wish to address the issue or validate the gov'ts mandate.
Arguably both can claim legitimacy; depending on how you view the situation.

[Fragony]

Ah, ok. Sultan Erdogan claims foreign powers are at work. Let's just forget that most Turks are deeply secular and don't want to live in Iran-light. Erdogan is a dangerous man, or as mr Wilders in his usual eloquent way said 'a total freak'. Pretty sure there is a big difference in how he handles all this, and how he would handle things if he could get away with it.

[LeftEyeNine]

Erdogan threatened the protestors in Taksim square, from his rally in Ankara today, saying that "they will have evacuated Taksim tomorrow or else the police force will handle it". And by 20:50, the square has been assaulted by police with a heavy tear gas bombard and watercannon.

Gezi Park has been dominated by the police. They have been bombarding INSIDE of surrounding hotels where protestors are seeking refuge.

The brutality was never so merciless. Please spread the news. It's getting very very ugly. God help guys over there.

[LeftEyeNine]

Also people are getting acid burns from the "watercannon"s. This is a first.

[LeftEyeNine]

That's the political point we have reached:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/everyone-who-enters-the-taksim-square-to-be-treated-as-terrorist-turkish-eu-minister.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48875&NewsCatID=338

[LeftEyeNine]

The state violence upon the protesters needs even more global attention than ever. Please at least "know" what we are pressurized under. Tomorrow will be even harder as AKP will be organizing its rally in Istanbul.

Ankara has been under a constant police violence by the way despite never being much focus of attention.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I don't get it - is this is a pride thing?

If he back tracked would the PM be seen as week and unmanly?

[Fragony]

The state violence upon the protesters needs even more global attention than ever. Please at least "know" what we are pressurized under. Tomorrow will be even harder as AKP will be organizing its rally in Istanbul.

Ankara has been under a constant police violence by the way despite never being much focus of attention.

Quality media is as useless as always but the internet is cheering for ya

[ICantSpellDawg]

I don't know what to think about this. I am absolutely concerned about the direction of AK after this debacle. I also have a feeling that this type of autocratic -"make terrorists out of protesters" mentality has begun to spread like a virus across the Mediterranean and Atlantic. Our government's are run by those paternalistic statists who view order as the objective and "democracy" as the bestowed teething toy to keep the masses feeling like they have a "stake". I believe that order is worthless unless it exists to protect and expand the rights of individuals. Order for the sake of order is anathema to a free people anywhere and we are obligated to question and disrupt this perverse view wherever it metastasizes.

Prepare your defenses to the furthest extent that the law allows and prepare them now, before you can't. Learn how to use these defenses if life or property are threatened and teach family and friends to do the same. This advice goes for Turks and anyone else who is looking down the barrel of government. History isn't over and despots aren't invincible, no matter what they tell you.

[Ironside]

That's the political point we have reached:

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/everyone-who-enters-the-taksim-square-to-be-treated-as-terrorist-turkish-eu-minister.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48875&NewsCatID=338

When you know your proganda thinker isn't particullary good. "Stop saying that this problem is bigger than it is and this insignificant problem deserves use of the terrorist label".

So according to your own words, you're a bigger autocrat than expected mr Egemen Bağış.

[Fragony]

A lot of wounded people apparantly. And oh oh oh was the high-left ready to claw out eyeballs when the Freedom Party called Erdogan a total freak, unspeakable disagreement with the truth. Wrong as usual, he is, in fact, a total freak

[LeftEyeNine]

the medicine students and doctors who tended to the wounded within the surrounding hotels are being detained.

9689


Also, the watercannons are loaded with a local brand of pepper gas named "Jenix" as could be seen from the picture below. This explains why it's giving burns to those soaked in that "water"

.9688

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

LEN - all I can say is, I'm sorry. This is completely nuts - the Administration's reaction is so far out of proportion as to be beyond the pale.

[LeftEyeNine]

The PM, who is currently holding his Istanbul rally, has just said in his speech that "I was fed up and WHATEVER THE COST, we would rid the square off Kılıçdaroğlu (CHP president) and terrorist organizations !".

Whatever the cost ? The sqaure where Davide Martello was giving piano concerts (whose, eventually, belongings along with the piano was seized) ?

His Hitler-level rage knows no boundaries. I wonder if any single person with a clear mind living abroad could still support him and his deeds.

[Fisherking]

There do need to be more supporting protests in other countries to get this more attention.

Of course he has ruined Turkey’s chances of getting in to the EU for a long time.

This whole thing is just one heart break after another.

[Sarmatian]

The PM, who is currently holding his Istanbul rally, has just said in his speech that "I was fed up and WHATEVER THE COST, we would rid the square off Kılıçdaroğlu (CHP president) and terrorist organizations !".

Whatever the cost ? The sqaure where Davide Martello was giving piano concerts (whose, eventually, belongings along with the piano was seized) ?

His Hitler-level rage knows no boundaries. I wonder if any single person with a clear mind living abroad could still support him and his deeds.

I sympathise but I won't hold my breath.

Protests are spontaneous, protesters aren't well organized, they aren't sure what they are protesting for. At this point only Erdogan's cruelty and stupidity is keeping them going.

They won't be able to do anything on their own and there's almost no chances of anyone outside doing anything, except strongly worded letters from ambassadors.

[HopAlongBunny]

From peaceful protest to "WHATEVER THE COST"...an insane bit of escalation imho.

Wishing you and yours a sane and peaceful transit LEN.

[LeftEyeNine]

It always was peaceful until police force is commanded to handle it, HAB. The protests were never inherently destructive. They still are not other than the natural consequences that could arise when you fire/shoot stuff at somebody.

[Papewaio]

So they are using pepper spray cannons?

That has to be breaking some sort of chemical warfare convention.
At the minimum it is disproportionate response and escalating the situation.

[HopAlongBunny]

That has to be breaking some sort of chemical warfare convention.

As a member of NATO that red line likely does not count...

[Sarmatian]

So they are using pepper spray cannons?

That has to be breaking some sort of chemical warfare convention.
At the minimum it is disproportionate response and escalating the situation.

The entire situation keeps escalating because of Erdogan's disproportionate response. Let's not forget the protests started because of a park. Erdogan could have defused the situation long ago had he been smart.

But, the underlying truth is that Erdogan still has a rather broad support. Many Turks, especially in Istanbul, are rather wary of anything resembling moving away from secularism but there is a rather radical minority that would welcome an Islamist state. That, and the fact that Erdogan has a broad base of support means that protesters don't have much chance, as outside intervention is impossible, with Turkey being a NATO member and all.

The only hope they have is that the army somehow decides Erdogan's gone far enough.

[Fragony]

So they are using pepper spray cannons?

That has to be breaking some sort of chemical warfare convention.
At the minimum it is disproportionate response and escalating the situation.

They do that at riots here as well, it hurts but leaves no permanent damage. I was once at the wrong place at the wrong time and got the full load, it really stings but after an hour you are fine

[HopAlongBunny]

The gov't seems content to ratchet up the use of force and the rhetoric.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/06/20136187192113371.html

[ICantSpellDawg]

I think that people are starting to realize, all over the world, that government authority is a myth. Government has no implied authority anywhere and can only enforce whims using power. If you drain it of power you destroy its made-up authority.
People are born into this world beholden to no one. Their parents don't own them and governments don't have a claim to them. There is no system that individuals must abide by.

A governments function is merely to exist with the minimum of power necessary to protect the rights of individuals. Governments agenda, beliefs are irrelevant. These movements are, hopefully, going to get bigger and bigger until people everywhere overwhelm their governments and chisel them down to size. Governments today are a vestige of the autocratic systems of history. It is a human goal to break the whip and bring governments into the future as tiny shells of what they once were. Start in the US and Turkey where the seeds have begun to grow.

[HopAlongBunny]

The problem is as old as politics :p
Power to do "x" may or may not equal legitimate right to do "x".
Power without the illusion of "legitimacy" may equal simple force...which the gov't has in abundance.

[Husar]

The tree of hierarchy must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of paramilitaries and peasants. It is it's natural manure. ~:rolleyes:

I also want whatever the Dawg had. :sweatdrop:

[Montmorency]

I think that people are starting to realize, all over the world, that government authority is a myth.

:laugh4:


People are born into this world beholden to no one.

"The heroes among us, they are the true slaves. Thrust against the limits of mortality, they alone feel the bite of their shackles. So they rage. So they fight. We only have as much freedom as we have slack in our chains. Only those who dare nothing are truly free."

"Live long enough, and you will see: Men resent not the whip so much as the hand that wields it."


These movements are, hopefully, going to get bigger and bigger until people everywhere overwhelm their governments and chisel them down to size.

You completely misunderstand the impetus behind these protests.


Governments today are a vestige of the autocratic systems of history.

On the contrary - states are now more powerful than they have ever been in the history of the species.

*********************

Enjoy this video, Mr. Anarchist.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJQTc-TqpU

[Greyblades]

I also want whatever the Dawg had. :sweatdrop:

I'm afraid at this point it's not a matter of what he's had, but what he is.

[a completely inoffensive name]

It takes a special kind of person to call government authority a myth literally 1 week after we have all learned that everything we say over an electronic device is being recorded and stored somewhere in Utah.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Governments have power in abundance. They have no moral authority or legitimacy to compel individuals beyond that power. The authority is a myth because it is actually the power of individuals. If we stop recognizing a governments authority and power it loses it in a snowballing effect

Many of these people protesting are asking for more government. These people really mean that they don't want o be abused or debased further. I rebel against those who seek to abuse or debase them just as hard, public sector or private.

[Montmorency]

Governments have power in abundance. They have no moral authority or legitimacy to compel individuals beyond that power. The authority is a myth because it is actually the power of individuals. If we stop recognizing a governments authority and power it loses it in a snowballing effect

Major problems:

1. Why would it be desirable for this to happen?

2. Where is the evidence that it is actually happening in the present, or will ever happen?

3. 'The Catholic Church has power in abundance. They have no moral authority or legitimacy to compel individuals beyond that power. The authority is a myth because it is actually the power of individuals. If we stop recognizing the Church's authority and power it loses it in a snowballing effect'

It is incredibly strange to call state authority a myth when there are millions of people - Americans alone - who will confidently declare "breaking the law" to be a moral ill in itself.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Major problems:

1. Why would it be desirable for this to happen?

2. Where is the evidence that it is actually happening in the present, or will ever happen?

3. 'The Catholic Church has power in abundance. They have no moral authority or legitimacy to compel individuals beyond that power. The authority is a myth because it is actually the power of individuals. If we stop recognizing the Church's authority and power it loses it in a snowballing effect'

It is incredibly strange to call state authority a myth when there are millions of people - Americans alone - who will confidently declare "breaking the law" to be a moral ill in itself.

Good points. We actually did this very thing to the Church. It has no real authority to imprison people or destroy lives. I'm advocating something similar for modern governments. Years ago few people would have believed that the Catholic Church would become a moral cheerleader rather than judge, jury and executioner, but here we are.

[ICantSpellDawg]

You have your enemies wrong, dawg. You and most Republicans, too. You need the services the government provides. I need those services. Average citizens need them. Things like police, roads, courts, enforcement of due process, etc. If you weaken the federal government you'll still have to get that stuff from somewhere, which will then effectively become your new government. To think otherwise is baffling.

The problem is when people who don't need the services of the government decide that they would rather it work for them. Corporate subversion. That's the enemy.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the #1 security threat for people in the intelligence business is, in fact, Corporate America. But that's just something we'll probably never know.

Listen, I get it. I recognize that it doesn't matter who controls your life; whoever does it is the enemy. If it is your boss, your president, your parent. All of them are the yolk that needs to be broken at that time. Cut them off from an ability to control you in any aspect of your life which doesn't affect others. Is there a need for corporate governance? Sure. Domestic governance? Sure. But does that mean that our system Is acceptable? No. We need to be constantly at war with the machine and rising up in counter power. People should constantly be getting fired everywhere.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I believe this conversation is as old as America itself.

[Greyblades]

I'd half expect that this conversation in one form or another is as old as election based government itself

[Husar]

Oh yes, after beating their own population into submission, these democrats now try to talk the EU into submission:

http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/87765-ankara-to-summon-german-envoy-warns-merkel-against-obstructing-turkey-eu-bid


Turkish European Union Affairs Minister Egemen Bagis had fumed Thursday that German reluctance to open a new chapter in EU accession talks was linked to Chancellor Angela Merkel's "election campaign".

"That is unacceptable," the German spokesman, Andreas Peschke, told reporters.

"These remarks met with great disbelief here. We will make our position abundantly clear."

But Ankara immediately fired back, saying it was planning to send for the German envoy to get an "explanation" of the summons in Berlin, a Turkish diplomat said.

Bagis warned that Germany would face consequences if Merkel did not lift her resistance.

"I hope she corrects the mistake she has made by Monday... or this will lead to reactions," he told reporters.

He had warned earlier this week that "Merkel should consider the benefit of some 4,000 German businesses in Turkey."

"Let us join or else..." Is that supposed to show that the allegations of human rights abuses and democratic deficits are false? :laugh4:

PS: Lebanese link because they are the only non-german source I found that quotes his threat.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh yes, after beating their own population into submission, these democrats now try to talk the EU into submission:

http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/87765-ankara-to-summon-german-envoy-warns-merkel-against-obstructing-turkey-eu-bid



"Let us join or else..." Is that supposed to show that the allegations of human rights abuses and democratic deficits are false? :laugh4:

PS: Lebanese link because they are the only non-german source I found that quotes his threat.


What are they going to do?

These guys are NUTS.

[LeftEyeNine]

RTE has a certain way of diplomacy and there are younger ones around him - other than those generally elderly who play good cop/bad cop strategically from time to time - that look up to him as a role model and Egemen Bagis is one of them.

The tone is not surprising - that's what we've been hearing from AKP politicians for years now.

GDP, roads, blocks and stuff, yeah yeah, "progress". Can we move on ?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

RTE has a certain way of diplomacy and there are younger ones around him - other than those generally elderly who play good cop/bad cop strategically from time to time - that look up to him as a role model and Egemen Bagis is one of them.

The tone is not surprising - that's what we've been hearing from AKP politicians for years now.

GDP, roads, blocks and stuff, yeah yeah, "progress". Can we move on ?

Well - I think the Scales have fallen from the eyes of your European Neighbours.

You're being ruled by a man who's half a step from being a Despot, everybody sees that now.

[Fragony]

Well - I think the Scales have fallen from the eyes of your European Neighbours.

You're being ruled by a man who's half a step from being a Despot, everybody sees that now.

The EU doesn't, es muss sein, Turkey must join the international-socialism. Talks continue between Turkey and that flemmish ferret who looks like an owl who dropped from his tree, his Portugese waitor and a German booksalesman about joining the EUSSR

[Husar]

The EU doesn't, es muss sein, Turkey must join the international-socialism. Talks continue between Turkey and that flemmish ferret who looks like an owl who dropped from his tree, his Portugese waitor and a German booksalesman about joining the EUSSR

Depends.

Our current government seems to be against furthering the EU entry talks and your government voted against it as well in the last round.
Austria was also mentioned as being critical but it almost sounded like the other European nations voted yes.
Our green party leader Claudia Roth, the one who got caught up in teargas while visiting Istanbul, says we have to continue the integration process to reward the protesters and their strife for more democracy. Well, I'm not sure about that because it would still look like the AKP types got a diplomatic victory right there and make them think they're doing it right. And then it doesn't even seem certain that the protesters want Turkey to join the EU. So in her case I actually agree that she seems to have lost touch with reality.

[HopAlongBunny]

The EU seems divided on the issue. It seems support divides along lines of what is perceived as "worth" discussing.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/06/2013621162546744468.html

[Fragony]

Depends.

Our current government seems to be against furthering the EU entry talks and your government voted against it as well in the last round.
Austria was also mentioned as being critical but it almost sounded like the other European nations voted yes.
Our green party leader Claudia Roth, the one who got caught up in teargas while visiting Istanbul, says we have to continue the integration process to reward the protesters and their strife for more democracy. Well, I'm not sure about that because it would still look like the AKP types got a diplomatic victory right there and make them think they're doing it right. And then it doesn't even seem certain that the protesters want Turkey to join the EU. So in her case I actually agree that she seems to have lost touch with reality.

As if it matters what our democratically elected government say, the unelected eurocrats do as the please and negotiations continue. The Netherlands is too small, and Germany will be remindeded of Europes darkest days and won't dare opposing.

[Husar]

As if it matters what our democratically elected government say, the unelected eurocrats do as the please and negotiations continue. The Netherlands is too small, and Germany will be remindeded of Europes darkest days and won't dare opposing.

Eh, no.

All member states have to agree to the ongoing process before every step. And the guys our countries sent to these votes said no, which is why Turkey is angry.

You can't just replace reality with your own made-up dystopia...

[Fragony]

Eh, no.

All member states have to agree to the ongoing process before every step.

Sorry Hussie but that's just laughable. You need more Nigel Farage explaining things to you.

[Husar]

Sorry Hussie but that's just laughable. You need more Nigel Farage explaining things to you.

So why is Turkey angry then if they can join anyway?

I don't need Farage to be able to read and listen and I don't trust him anyway.

[Beskar]

Sorry Hussie but that's just laughable. You need more Nigel Farage explaining things to you.

Nigel Farage in some aspects is correct, he knows where a lot of the weaknesses are within the EU. However, he is also part of the club which would oppose European reform due to how it would affect the balance of power, and actively voices just to leave. For the negatives of the European Union, there are quite a number of very strong positives. I believe Reform can happen within the Union to address and fix the issues, opposed to jumping ship at the merest sight of an Iceberg.

[Fragony]

Nigel Farage in some aspects is correct, he knows where a lot of the weaknesses are within the EU. However, he is also part of the club which would oppose European reform due to how it would affect the balance of power, and actively voices just to leave. For the negatives of the European Union, there are quite a number of very strong positives. I believe Reform can happen within the Union to address and fix the issues, opposed to jumping ship at the merest sight of an Iceberg.

I agree with him. I want the Netherlands to leave as well. The Netherlands doesn't need the EU for effective trading, small as we may be the EU needs us more than vica versa as we are the only ones that can provide the recources needed through our waterways to provide the German industry with. No Netherlands means no Germany. No Germany means no EU. It's about time we use what we got. We don't have to leave altogether but we can certainly stop that Flemmish ferret that looks an owl that just dropped from his tree, his Portugese waitor and a German booksalesman. Pro-EU parties are at an all time low, and we are in general really fed up with it. So are the Finnish by the way, that other AAA country, they are also beyond fed-up paying for garlic-countries they will probably blow everything up sooner.

[Sarmatian]

we are the only ones that can provide the recources needed through our waterways to provide the German industry with. No Netherlands means no Germany.

Que? Delusions of grandeur a bit?

And, Hussar is correct. No country can join EU unless every member state agree.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Nigel Farage in some aspects is correct, he knows where a lot of the weaknesses are within the EU. However, he is also part of the club which would oppose European reform due to how it would affect the balance of power, and actively voices just to leave. For the negatives of the European Union, there are quite a number of very strong positives. I believe Reform can happen within the Union to address and fix the issues, opposed to jumping ship at the merest sight of an Iceberg.

It has taken 20 years to reform the Common Fisheries policy to prevent the extinction of North Sea Cod. This is the fault of Mediterranean Countries, who are already fished out, refusing to give ground. The CAP still requires reform.

In addition to the vested interests, you have the EU technocrats who demand "Ever Deeper Union" - the Myth that the single currency is a permanent and irrevocable development is a case in point - that statement runs counter to economic sense and historical fact. The abject refusal to EVER rescind a treaty provision or disband an agency have resulted in decades of trying to paper over structural problems - instead of abolishing institutions and replacing them (as happens at a national level) the EU attempts to deal with structural problems by adding another layer of control.

Farage is fundamental correct - the EU cannot be reformed, because it refuses to be reformed.

[Montmorency]

Farage is fundamental correct - the EU cannot be reformed, because it refuses to be reformed.

The EU can not be dismantled, because it refuses to dismantle itself.

:sneaky:

[Sarmatian]

Farage is fundamental correct - the EU cannot be reformed, because it refuses to be reformed.

This is pure bollox, but we should probably continue this line of discussion in the appropriate thread.

[Brenus]

“Farage is fundamental correct”: The man so patriotic that he opened a bank account in a Fiscal Paradise to avoid paying taxes to the Country he loves so much?:laugh4:
Like Le Pen in France (who opened a Swiss Bank Account few years ago), these so call patriots just love themselves and are the good faithful dog guards of the capitalist system. They come when needed and thanks to the media they rescue the Bi-party system (parties that have the same policies, just names change) that gave the crowd the illusion of choice. Because it is becoming more and more obvious, most of the voters don’t go to vote any more.
That is the opened door to more unrest, violence and confrontation when the need and voices of the population are ignored for the sake of saving the privileges of the few at the top.
It is like a C4 charge. Stable until the detonator ignites the charge. The problem is no body know what will be the spark: trees cutting like in Turkey, suicide by fire like in Tunisia, price of bus tickets like in Portugal?

[Fragony]

Que? Delusions of grandeur a bit?

Simply how it is, only Rotterdam can handle the really big ships. If we leave the EU that doesn't change.

[HopAlongBunny]

Anyone have good current information on this?
It seems to have disappeared from from the news, and I doubt it has been resolved. Eerie I call it...

[Fisherking]

Can you believe it! The politicians of Turkey are blaming the protests on Turkish Jews.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/02/us-turkey-protests-jews-idUSBRE9610L520130702

[HopAlongBunny]

Ouch!
From the "If you can't think of anything intelligent to say" school of political discourse

Hope LEN is doing well.

[HopAlongBunny]

Nothing here

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“Farage is fundamental correct”: The man so patriotic that he opened a bank account in a Fiscal Paradise to avoid paying taxes to the Country he loves so much?:laugh4:
Like Le Pen in France (who opened a Swiss Bank Account few years ago), these so call patriots just love themselves and are the good faithful dog guards of the capitalist system. They come when needed and thanks to the media they rescue the Bi-party system (parties that have the same policies, just names change) that gave the crowd the illusion of choice. Because it is becoming more and more obvious, most of the voters don’t go to vote any more.
That is the opened door to more unrest, violence and confrontation when the need and voices of the population are ignored for the sake of saving the privileges of the few at the top.
It is like a C4 charge. Stable until the detonator ignites the charge. The problem is no body know what will be the spark: trees cutting like in Turkey, suicide by fire like in Tunisia, price of bus tickets like in Portugal?

I've said before that I don't think UKIP should be allowed into Office.

That doesn't make Farage's analysis of the problem wrong.

Your argument is an ad hominem, which is usually deployed when a debator cannot attack the Point and so attacks the Man.

[Brenus]

“Your argument is an ad hominem, which is usually deployed when a debator cannot attack the Point and so attacks the Man.” Oh. So when somebody says something and does something else, you consider he’s got a point. I consider that his actions talk for him, so, in this case prove him wrong. Dishonesty can’t be a legitimate basis for political point.
By the way, don’t use tactic you give the impression to denounce~D
Now, for the EU, Farage is wrong, so he doesn’t have a point. Like all institutions it can be change. I am part of the few countries that voted against the European Constitution and then it was imposed by my government. So, EU can change. For the worst for now, but it did change.

[HopAlongBunny]

Protest continues:

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/07/201376163756523394.html

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“Your argument is an ad hominem, which is usually deployed when a debator cannot attack the Point and so attacks the Man.” Oh. So when somebody says something and does something else, you consider he’s got a point. I consider that his actions talk for him, so, in this case prove him wrong. Dishonesty can’t be a legitimate basis for political point.
By the way, don’t use tactic you give the impression to denounce~D
Now, for the EU, Farage is wrong, so he doesn’t have a point. Like all institutions it can be change. I am part of the few countries that voted against the European Constitution and then it was imposed by my government. So, EU can change. For the worst for now, but it did change.

I was talking about the structure of the EU - not domestic taxes. Ergo, Farage's tax avoidance is irrelevant and an ad hominem.

Farage has been consistently ahead of the curve in predicting the collapse of the peripheral EU economies, his sequence of events and times have been spookily accurate. Either he understands the flaws in the EU economic arrangement - or he's orchestrating the collapse.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Either he understands the flaws in the EU economic arrangement - or he's orchestrating the collapse.

He might not be personally orchestrating the collapse, but his sort of behaviour has contributed to the crisis. The Bankers of course did their bit, but in the Southern European countries, a big part of their problem has been people dodging taxes.

[gaelic cowboy]

Farage is a bit hyped though isnt he, I mean they don't a presence in parliment except in the heads of nervous Tories.

Even that byelection result lately if extrapolated nation wide probably wouldnt result in a single seat

[Fragony]

Lennie or Mouzi explain this for me please, Turkey sits proudly on the first place when it comes to patrol-prices. I don't buy it, and most certainly don't understand it. No way it can behigher than in compact countries like Norway and the Neds, who are two and tree

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

He might not be personally orchestrating the collapse, but his sort of behaviour has contributed to the crisis. The Bankers of course did their bit, but in the Southern European countries, a big part of their problem has been people dodging taxes.

From what I understand, he briefly flirted with avoidance for one tax year over a decade ago - having either realised that it was immoral or politically untenable he cancelled the arrangement.

[LeftEyeNine]

Lennie or Mouzi explain this for me please, Turkey sits proudly on the first place when it comes to patrol-prices. I don't buy it, and most certainly don't understand it. No way it can behigher than in compact countries like Norway and the Neds, who are two and tree

Taxation is as old as money ?

[Beskar]

Taxation is as old as money ?

Even older than money!

[The Outsider]

Seriously this bloody dictator needs to go. Arresting people for their tweeter messages? having your loyal dogs attack people in the street with machetes? arresting doctors because they were tending to the wounded protestors? using relegion as a shield and a means of provocation? Enough is enough Turkey wont be another Iran (no offence) people will not abonden the secular regime and the revolutions of Ataturk and the republic. So I say Viva La Republic, To Hell With the Tyrants!!!

[LeftEyeNine]

His recent attempts at provocating his "civil" supporters gave fruit. The local shopkeepers around where protests are held grab their bats and sticks to beat protesters. Recently RTE called for the neighbors who are disturbed from the noise that protesters at home do by clinging pots and pans to inform police about that specific neighbor - in other words snitching about them.

By the way oil is 5 TL as of now and both electricity and natural gas have been subject to increase in their prices.

He, whose government's sole pillar they call "economical success" was the hot cash flow through aggressive privatization of state properties and services and the sustaining of such flow via creation of a debt system where getting yourself into credits and credit cards was never so easy -hence the evergrowing banks and their unwavering support for the economical route-, now calls for discarding those "credit cards et cetera". Mister, whole nation is under a blanket of debt which you have encouraged in the first place.

RTE never seemed so clueless and desperate. Although I despise the guy, overall, I don't like the situation - some economic crisis is banging at the door.

[HopAlongBunny]

Thank you for the update LEN :yes:

Freedom through finance! This always ends well :dizzy2:

[Fragony]

Scary stuff. Erdogan is a very dangerous man.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

His recent attempts at provocating his "civil" supporters gave fruit. The local shopkeepers around where protests are held grab their bats and sticks to beat protesters. Recently RTE called for the neighbors who are disturbed from the noise that protesters at home do by clinging pots and pans to inform police about that specific neighbor - in other words snitching about them.

By the way oil is 5 TL as of now and both electricity and natural gas have been subject to increase in their prices.

He, whose government's sole pillar they call "economical success" was the hot cash flow through aggressive privatization of state properties and services and the sustaining of such flow via creation of a debt system where getting yourself into credits and credit cards was never so easy -hence the evergrowing banks and their unwavering support for the economical route-, now calls for discarding those "credit cards et cetera". Mister, whole nation is under a blanket of debt which you have encouraged in the first place.

RTE never seemed so clueless and desperate. Although I despise the guy, overall, I don't like the situation - some economic crisis is banging at the door.

Well - the dubious upside is that if your economy tanks your government might change.

The downside is that Erodgen is doing the old Tyrant shtick of creating civil strife to shield his miss-management of the economy. This whole thing is really starting to look manufactured.

[Fragony]

LOL Turkish girlfriend of my sister doesn't understand Ramadan.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/image_zps356a5a3a.jpg

Don't tell her yet but I am going to marry her one day

[LeftEyeNine]

"Whoever the nation points to through ballot box, everybody has to submit to them"

Latest from RTE. And he is complaining about what's going on in Egypt every other day with "democracy"-oriented speeches.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ex-army chief given life for plot to overthrow Erdogan (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23571739)

As much as Turkey's military should be reigned in, I'm not sure it is happening in the right way or for the right reasons.

[Fisherking]

More one party politics!

[Fragony]

Ex-army chief given life for plot to overthrow Erdogan (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23571739)

As much as Turkey's military should be reigned in, I'm not sure it is happening in the right way or for the right reasons.

Also journalists, writers, academics, 275 total, undermining the state and all that. Not all for life though. Leftists and europhiles were appalled, but maybe mr Wilders was right, and Erdogan is, in fact, a total freak

[Yesugey]

Ah, these protesters are good and well educated people who only react against the RTE governmentns, but they are too foolish to understand that they still live in Middle East.

10 years ago, they support RTE for the name of democracy, and celebrated the arrestment of the generals who intervenes with politics, as "a step to democracy".

They made fun with people say "There is a danger that Turkiye can become like Iran."
They laughed to people who say "There is a danger that Kurdish people will divide the land".
They accused the generals as "You are lying about the true intensions of Over-Islamics and Kurds, because you want to hold the power and money for your own good. If we give Over-Islamics and Kurds freedom and rights, they will even clean the terrorists of their own themselves."

Yea, well, there you have it. Over-Islamics are banning alcoholic drinks day by day. They putting their own men to all parts of the government. Kurds openy support Pkk terrorists, calls it as their own army.

All of these is th fault of the Gezi Protesters. The Gezi protesters are the people who forgot that they are living in middle east, the lands that culturally attached to the brute force.

[Vladimir]

I thought this was an interesting and depressing peice: http://m.gulfnews.com/opinion/how-turkey-went-from-zero-problems-to-zero-friends-1.1223309


While Ankara’s foreign policy struggles in the Middle East may have been inevitable, its isolation elsewhere seems self-inflicted