Arverni in Rome 2 and Europa Barbarorum

[Decebalus]

So I made an account literally just to ask this one very lengthy question, since if I don't ask it, it will bug me for the next year or so. In Rome 2 the Averni are apparently using the banner that was assigned to the Aedui in EB.

I'm not trying to insult the research of CA or the amazing EB team at all just so that's clear :).

My question essentially is did CA make a mistake with the representation of the Averni in Rome 2?

Also, if an EB guy can respond to this can you tell me where you found out about the banners for the Aedui and Arverni?

It's not that I wouldn't trust anyone here, it's just that I love history :D. Especially the history on the barbarians of the Classical world :).

[Blxz]

I would bet on, if there were a mistake made anywhere, that it would be CA who is in error. Not that I think what they have done is wrong, they have gameplay considerations to put first and they may feel that that particular banner is better looking. Off the top of my head the Aedui banner was a boar I think? Perhaps CA feels that the boar symbolises the gallic people better than their other choices....alternatively, considering the historical inaccuracies in Rome 1 it could just be that they don't particularly care to spend the money and time on research when budgets are limited.

[Decebalus]

Hmm, your probably right. I just had to ask the question so it didn't haunt me for the rest of my life. Rome 2 is looking great, but just from that I'm worried about the historical inconsistencies that are inevitably going to pop up. Of course to be fair to CA they do have to make the game accessible to everyone. After all not everyone enjoys reading walls of text on the history of a single unit or wants to read a paragraph on each of the Gallic tribes ~:).

[Arjos]

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think there ever was a "national" banner for either of those tribes...
Keltoi carried a staff with usually an animal figure on top, which held a religious/cultural meaning. And that would be the closest thing to a banner they had...

I do not know what criteria the EB team followed to pick those particular ones for the Aeduoi and Aruernoi (unfortunately I haven't studied those cultures in such detail), but I'd guess they probably picked one of the most common representations for the corresponding regions...
Hopefully an historian will have the time to enlighten on the matter :)

[Maeran]

The EB team may not respond readily to this question. Many of the team members from so long ago (as when the faction symbols from EB 1 were chosen) have gone their own way since then that the current team may not do the answer justice.

The boar used by the Aedui in EB is a widely used symbol of power (not just gallic, the Romans used them along with the eagle as standards in the repuiblican era). The couldron and hammers of the Arverni represent a special devotion to the god Sucellos, whose symbols they are. These are decisions made by the EB team (and also CA for RTW2). The actual Aedui and Arverni didn't use symbolism to define a faction.

[Picenian]

the Boar was a widespread symbol of life/rebirth and power throughout all celtic cultures (associated with some goddess I can't remember, possibly a celtic equivalent to germanic Freya who also rode a boar), so I don't think the CA team is in error (in absence of an actual tribe-banner, a concept that, like Maeran pointed out, did not exist in celtic culture). What I would really like to point out on the other hand is that I have a feeling that the RTW2 draws HUGE inspiration from EB! I mean, we have Arverni/Iceni/Suebi instead of Gauls/Britons/Germans. I am sure that they will put in some hollywood unit like superpowerful berserkers or british headhunters, but for now it looks like the CA team learnt a lesson about accuracy :)

and, anyway, I REALLY, REALLY hope there won't be flaming pigs or roman ninjas this time :D

[Brennus]

Will aim to give my (lengthy) opinion on this soon, bit busy at the moment (overtime in work, Arevaci markets and Arverni farms for EBII).

[Brennus]

Ok, this is not as lengthy as I was hoping for, but it should answer the question.

No, the use of the boar for the Arverni in Rome 2 is perfectly acceptable. As Picenian pointed out the boar is a widespread feature of Gallic artwork. In fact the boar is the most frequently depicted animal in Celtic artwork, followed by the horse, deer, raven and wolf. In EB the symbol for the Arverni is the Gundestrup cauldron. Although this cauldron was found in Denmark it is theorised to have been produced in central Gaul. Furthemore a variety of gods are displayed on the cauldron, including Succellos, who was favoured by the Arverni. as Maeran pointed out. If we wanted to be more precise we could use the symbolism found on Gallic coinage, however that would result in the Aedui, Arveni, Boii and Britons having very similar factional banners (it would also be anachronistic for the Pritanoi).

[Decebalus]

Thanks for all of the information. School kept me away from replying. It's nice to know it wasn't chosen for an arbitrary reason.

[The Outsider]

Hmmm this was really interesting to read.

[Brennus]

Glad I could be of help. Feel free to ask any Celtic related questions you might have (I really enjoy discussing Celts :book2:).