Racism and dogs...

[Kadagar_AV]

Ok, so here is what I don't get about DNA, mutations, races, offspring, yadda yadda, and all that.

So, I live in a world of humans. Living in this world of humans, I have after a while started to see some characteristics in these humans. I have been able to quite often make predictions of their behavior, solely based on their looks and heritage.

I am of course a dirty rotten racist.

So, I live in the world of dogs. Living in this world of dogs, I have after a while started to see some characteristics in these dogs. I have been able to quite often make predictions of their behavior, solely based on their looks and heritage.

I am of course the average dog owner.




So what is my point?

This may not be a problem in other countries, I don't know. But here in Sweden these two factors are... incompatible. It came to the degree where I ponder if I could face prosecution based on what I have written just now.

So what does people think?

Where I am, I am pretty damn close to going to jail just for saying "races" unless I talk about dogs.

What's up with this? Am I the only one thinking it doesn't seem very... logical?

[Kadagar_AV]

There ARE as many differences between blacks and whites, as it is between whites and whites (or yellows and white or whatever).

However, bear in mind, and this is where it gets important, it's not the SAME differences.

IE, an somalis and a japanese have some 5000 hard programmed factors they share in random.

However, ALL somalis have this +dna factor of might is right... Whereas ALL japanese have this factor of "the winner is the one with the best case".

Even though they share much in common, even though their differences can be mended with enough time and procreation... And even though the difference is so small that it only activates in even a MINORITY of the population... It is still enough to create very different societys.

And know what? There are differences. Not just the colour of skin, but on the very basic DNA levels.

[Papewaio]

Normally skin colour of dogs doesn't determine our perception of its breed.

For instance Labradors come in mainly blond or black. Both main types are Labradors.

So I wouldn't use skin colour as the basis of racial division.

[Kadagar_AV]

Normally skin colour of dogs doesn't determine our perception of its breed.

For instance Labradors come in mainly blond or black. Both main types are Labradors.

So I wouldn't use skin colour as the basis of racial division.

Who would? :shrug:

It's not like an albino negro is less negroid, is it?

Racial divisions are best estimated in the actual divisions. No?

[Major Robert Dump]

JUSTICE FOR AVON

[Papewaio]

Who would? :shrug:

It's not like an albino negro is less negroid, is it?

Racial divisions are best estimated in the actual divisions. No?

It's a nature/Nuture divide as well.

You can see big differences in a family simply with country vs city raised cousins of a similar age group.

Sure, similar genetics but different outcomes.

Also the differences between siblings can be quite marked. So it isn't simply genetics, culture, family or society.

Our genetics alone mean we have 23 pairs of chromosomes of which on average you will share half with your siblings. And that doesn't even take into account which of the genes get activated and in which sequence.

People are highly complex machines.

[Kadagar_AV]

I think the neurological differences between cultures caused by the differences in language groups is far more interesting, if you want to talk about what makes people different from eachother.

So, so... That is indeed an interesting field of research, but as of yet, if you are result oriented - I would bear with me.

However, nah, that isn't the point of the OP. My point of the OP is that science (at least in some countries?) have a ban on even remotely touching anything Goodwin.

What happened to "information wants to be free"?

I don't care if science would prove that this specific African tribe pretty much has the best damn DNA. All I care for is to let science be science, without political agendas.

I am so, so, so SO, SO against all kinds of limitations of the human mind. Science and popular results have already proven in everyone's eyes that Negroes jump higher and run faster.

This is also accepted knowledge around the world.

If science as easily could prove they are more stupid than the rest of the population of the world, would that be seen with as loving eyes?

Or is it that being rather stupid as a race have so many historical connotations even in this modern day that the thought is inexcusable?

[Kadagar_AV]

It's a nature/Nuture divide as well.

You can see big differences in a family simply with country vs city raised cousins of a similar age group.

Sure, similar genetics but different outcomes.

Also the differences between siblings can be quite marked. So it isn't simply genetics, culture, family or society.

Our genetics alone mean we have 23 pairs of chromosomes of which on average you will share half with your siblings. And that doesn't even take into account which of the genes get activated and in which sequence.

People are highly complex machines.

Uh...

Rubbish.

Sorry... That came off as rude unintended. I meant to say that what you wrote was complete ****, intended.

Yes "people are complex machines". But with that said, two siblings will generally have a DNA structure WAY more attuned than any one of them separately would have with some random guy from some other continent.

Much like a white guy would make a rather safe bet if he bet his DNA would more resemble another white guy than a yellow guy.

Can we move on from the stuff you are supposed to have understood from having a brain, or are we going to sidetrack this into a discussion of your educational system?

[Papewaio]

Grew up on a farm. Seen both breeding programs for natural and artificial insemination.

Identical parents does not equal identical children.

Further even twins who have the same chromosomes don't all have the same ones switched on.

For instance whilst a twin may be gay it doesn't follow 100% that the other does.

So you can share a pool of genes but they are not as determinative as one thinks.

Just look at obesity. It's genes, which ones get switched on, social group, bacteria and individual lifestyle.

Genes are indicative not determinative. Big difference.

[Papewaio]

Mathematically speaking on average you only share half your genes with a sibling.

In the dog world to get these pure breeds you are fond of quoting it requires the genetic pool to be concentrated. In humans we call that inbreeding. Not really a good recommendation to survival.

Mongrels are less likely to get cancer, live longer and generally display hybrid vigor.

[HoreTore]

In the dog world to get these pure breeds you are fond of quoting it requires the genetic pool to be concentrated. In humans we call that inbreeding.

Indeed, and this is the reason why the comparison between humans and dogs fail. Dog(and cat, which I'm more familiar with) breeds are inbred families, humans are not. A breed you could compare to humans would be the "back alley" cat breed, and trying to give that breed certain characteristics will result in a massive fail.

[Fisherking]

I would tend to think it is more environmental. A black kid growing up in the north of Norway is likely to think and act a lot different than his grandparent from Kenya, lest say.

The same for a white kid growing up in the inner-city of Detroit. His ideas, speech etc. are going to be different than his cousin who grew up in rural Alabama. The wouldn’t fit the mold too well.

Now as an aside, Kadagar AV, what are you doing back in Sweden? I thought you had made a permanent move to Austria. How is it you are so different from the average Swede?

And do you hate your self and that is why you keep going back? Next summer you should try Greece or something where you won’t get arrested for nonconformity. There are lots of runaways from Sweden and Norway hiding out down there being politically incorrect.

[HoreTore]

No, Norwegian refugees are colonizing Spain(the elderly) and Thailand(the pedos), not Greece.

Anyway, you could expand your statement to include adopted children, Fisherking. Will an Asian/African/Whatever adopted as a toddler by European parents act according to the culture of its country of origin or the country it grew up in? I can't see any research showing it will act according to the culture of its country of origin, and that sways the facts heavily in favour of nurture over nature.

[Fisherking]

I am glad there is no mass Nordic exodus to Greece, more specifically the Greek Islands. Of course with the populations of those places 3 expats constitutes a colony, and might show up in whole percentage points of the population.

Back on topic, I forget the percentages of environment vs. genetics but environment has the greater determinant in behavior.

[rory_20_uk]

Look at the 100m Olympic event. Definite propensity towards certain ethnicities.

And many humans are inbred - especially from certain groups where marrying one's first cousin is considered a good idea.

~:smoking:

[Ironside]

So, so... That is indeed an interesting field of research, but as of yet, if you are result oriented - I would bear with me.

However, nah, that isn't the point of the OP. My point of the OP is that science (at least in some countries?) have a ban on even remotely touching anything Goodwin.

From a scientific viewpoint, it's very hard to differentiate between cultural upbringing and genetical factors, in particular since the first one is much stronger when looking at a group (that's why different cities got different attitudes for example). And pure genetical research hasn't reached that level yet and an fully accurate research would probably involve many clinical trials, that would be unetical (you'll need a lot of orphans for that).

But such reasearch is done regularly, it's not common as newspaper material though.

It'll also be very abused since people don't know what the data really means. Basically you got 2 factors, mean and spread. The mean is easy enough, they peak at different values. With the same spread it would mean most in the edges. Taking the US as an example, that would mean a lot more "asians" are top scoring and more blacks are in the bottom rung. Easy enough, but in the middle, where most people are, the differences are almost unnotable. A higher spread can be seen with left-handed vs right-handed. Lefties are more topscoring and also more retarded than the Righties.

Now add social pressure. The left left or sinister (latin for left) left would of course be scoring as normal while they were being oppressed historically correct?


I am so, so, so SO, SO against all kinds of limitations of the human mind. Science and popular results have already proven in everyone's eyes that Negroes jump higher and run faster.

This is also accepted knowledge around the world.

Here's another possible example. Does black people dominate high jump? NO. My suspicion is that you're refering to basketball, where the US team is usually very black and used to be superdominating, while they can lose to say Spain or Lithuania nowadays. So why does the US basketball looks like it does? Because it was much more popular in the US compared to the rest of the world and got promoted to blacks when the sport was very young -> the sport blacks could and would seriously compete in -> established as a black sport -> blacks taking the sport seriously completely outnumber the whites in the US.

So it's a hard field, a place where you need to tread carefully and you'll find yourself working the same field as a bunch of pseudoscientists, that does have a political axe to grind. So, no not a big field.

I'm also not sure how much use it has, since it's a backtrack from an induvidual level, making the picture more grainy (first rule of prejudices are that they are very rarely spot-on, more of a better than average guesses, those times they are somewhat correct).

[HoreTore]

Look at the 100m Olympic event. Definite propensity towards certain ethnicities.

And many humans are inbred - especially from certain groups where marrying one's first cousin is considered a good idea.

~:smoking:

Yeah, let's have a look at that:

http://www.olympic.org/olympic-results/london-2012/athletics/100m-m

Yanks and Caribbeans. Not very specific ethnicities(where's Ghana or Nigeria?), but incredibly specific countries of origin.

Yeah sure, that points to purely genetics. It's no indication at all of sporting culture having a drastic effect.

The thing is, if you grow up in Jamaica and run fast, you end up a runner and live the sweet life with education, freebies and glory. If you grow up in Norway and run fast, you become a striker. If you can run for a long time, you become a midfielder. In Kenya, you would've become a runner.

Since Saihou Sarr played for Mjøndalen, Norway has imported quite a few footballers from the ethnicities you believe are great sprinters. What defines most of them? Not speed, but muscle. Nearly all of them are played as target men. In the later years we've expanded a little to also include midfield ballwinners(Anthony Annan) and dribbling wingers(Vamouti Diomande), but the sterotypical african player in Norway is still the target man.

As a matter of fact, the players who have been brought in due to their speed(Kyle Helton, Joshua Gatt, Jonathan Barrojo etc) are american college players.

[rory_20_uk]

Countries of Origin... which oddly all appear to have the same groups year after year, which happen to be a tiny minority.

And Yanks and Carribbeans. A mix of white and black. For all I know that is the optimal mix for sprinters.

Did I say that pointed purely to anything?
And no one sprints int Europe, or Asia...?

I guess winning the 100m has so little fame and money few can be bothered to try...

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

Countries of Origin... which oddly all appear to have the same groups year after year, which happen to be a tiny minority.

And Yanks and Carribbeans. A mix of white and black. For all I know that is the optimal mix for sprinters.

Did I say that pointed purely to anything?
And no one sprints int Europe, or Asia...?

I guess winning the 100m has so little fame and money few can be bothered to try...

~:smoking:

A 100m runner in Norway will have to have a regular job on the side to make end meet. If he plays as a striker instead he'll earn millions and do celebrities on a regular basis.

The choice is obvious.

There are also extremely few running coaches or clubs, while you'll find a football coach on every other street corner. I live in the central area of Norway, but the closest athletics club is 40km away. Of course I played football instead.


But I suppose you have research showing that a particular European/African mix results in optimal running results?

[rory_20_uk]

A 100m runner in Norway will have to have a regular job on the side to make end meet. If he plays as a striker instead he'll earn millions and do celebrities on a regular basis.

The choice is obvious.


But I suppose you have research showing that a particular European/African mix results in optimal running results?

You do realise that you require very different skills to be a footballer and a sprinter, right? Such as, oh I don't know, the ability to play football/
You are aware that there are other sports in America that let in blacks these days beyond track and field, and that they are also paid as well as the whites? So this simplistic "explanation" falls down very quickly.

And I'm afraid that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I, as stated already, suggest that the results of certain sporting events can be used as an epidemiological study, albeit with the potential for confounding factors. I picked the 100m as the resources to run in a straight line are limited whereas competing in the sailing / cycling does require massive investment.
Another example would be the long distance event runs. They tend to be African... Oh, except for the British winner Mohamed Farah. Who happens to be Somali. Slim, tall build makes better endurance runners? Piffle!

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

You do realise that you require very different skills to be a footballer and a sprinter, right? Such as, oh I don't know, the ability to play football/
You are aware that there are other sports in America that let in blacks these days beyond track and field, and that they are also paid as well as the whites? So this simplistic "explanation" falls down very quickly.

And I'm afraid that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I, as stated already, suggest that the results of certain sporting events can be used as an epidemiological study, albeit with the potential for confounding factors. I picked the 100m as the resources to run in a straight line are limited whereas competing in the sailing / cycling does require massive investment.
Another example would be the long distance event runs. They tend to be African... Oh, except for the British winner Mohamed Farah. Who happens to be Somali. Slim, tall build makes better endurance runners? Piffle!

~:smoking:

Yeah, the long distance. Dominated by Ethiopia and Kenya. Tanzania, on the other hand, hasn't had a proper runner ever. Same ethnicity and geography, and far more of a functioning country than Ethiopia.

Kenya and Ethiopia has running academies, Tanzania does not. A Kenyan and Ethiopian is groomed by qualified coaches from an early age, a Tanzanian is not. Neither is a Norwegian, we're groomed as midfielders.


The claim that playing football requires you to be able to play football is countered by the existance of Theo Walcott. Running fast is enough.


The British has always had a strong tradition for running sports, far more than any other european country. The French, with a bigger african population than England, has never competed in running. Again I say sporting culture.

[rory_20_uk]

And there are no running academies in the whole of Europe and USA?

All you shown is that with ability and support they are the best.

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

And there are no running academies in the whole of Europe and USA?

All you shown is that with ability and support they are the best.

~:smoking:

What I'm trying to show is that those trying to prove genetic difference between races because of sporting results haven't looked closely at the facts and are ignoring the major influence proper training and sporting culture has.

There are no running academies in Norway by the way. They exist in Britain and the US, two countries who have always had strong traditions in the sport, and consequently perform well in the olympics.

[Husar]

http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/both-environment-and-genetic-makeup-influence-behavior-13907840


Genes and Environment in Human Behavior: Sociocultural Influences and Politics
An understandable fear held by many humans is that their behavior is pre-determined by their genes. If this were the case, a person might be uncontrollably locked into bad parenting, violent behavior, or drug addiction. Most human cultures hold strong beliefs in self-determination and free will, as well as the ability of humans to separate right from wrong and to make choices about the appropriateness of their actions. Heated arguments among biologists, philosophers, religious leaders, and ethicists over the relative roles of genes and behavior in human behavior have brought no simple resolution. The evils of eugenics influence many to oppose consideration of any role for genetics in human behavior. Some biologists have been criticized for underestimating the role of thought and reasoning in human behavior, while others have been accused of ignoring the power of evolution in shaping genetically adaptive behavior. This debate is far from resolved and will continue to fuel controversy, even as more is discovered about the genetic and evolutionary bases of behavior.

Heh.
Heheh.
Heheheheheheheheheheheh.

Basically says that even the experts are not clear. I do somewhat agree however that there is sometimes a bit of a stigma on generalizations, partially justified and partially overblown IMO. There are certain trends and recognizing a trend does not have to result in discrimination or loss of objectivity concerning individuals. A trend is a trend and does not cover every single data point.

So if I say that people around the equator tend to look lazy because they avoid the sun during parts of the day that's not discrimination, it is in fact a testament to their adapted lifestyle. It's not very different from saying people in the polar regions waste energy because they heat up their homes all winter. Which also incidentally shows that the environment simply has an impact on behavior and that is only a testament to the ability of all humans to adapt to their environment. A Spaniard who moves to Scandinavia will stop making siesta to avoid the hot sun and start wasting heat. The only things that are genetic are things like pizza-making abilities that are genetically coded into Italians or the ability of the dutch to move around in wooden shoes and build the best ships.

Oh and on running, it makes a difference whether you're used to wearing shoes or not. If you don't wear shoes you tend to hit the ground with the forward part of your feet first while people used to wearing shoes with dampened heels tend to put their heels onto the ground first. It's a different running style borne out of environmental/behavioral circumstances and it does affect running performance of course, regardless of race.

[Pannonian]

No, Norwegian refugees are colonizing Spain(the elderly) and Thailand(the pedos), not Greece.

Anyway, you could expand your statement to include adopted children, Fisherking. Will an Asian/African/Whatever adopted as a toddler by European parents act according to the culture of its country of origin or the country it grew up in? I can't see any research showing it will act according to the culture of its country of origin, and that sways the facts heavily in favour of nurture over nature.

Nurture will only count for so much. Sooner or later, blood tells.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHI7QTfpRXo

[Fragony]

Is being a racist so bad that you have to keep explaining it to self-congratuling moralists. Racism means acknowligement of the existance of different sorts of human-beings. That isn't a bad thing, everybody knows it's simply true, you just don't admit it. Differences between races exist, you don't have to dislike them for it but Asians are smarter than whities, and negroes are dumber. That is just how it is

[HoreTore]

Is being a racist so bad that you have to keep explaining it to self-congratuling moralists. Racism means acknowligement of the existance of different sorts of human-beings. That isn't a bad thing, everybody knows it's simply true, you just don't admit it. Differences between races exist, you don't have to dislike them for it but Asians are smarter than whities, and negroes are dumber. That is just how it is

Nothing like a completely unbased assertion being delivered with absolute certainty to brighten ones day.

[Fragony]

Nothing like a completely unbased assertion being delivered with absolute certainty to brighten ones day.

Looks pretty obvious to me http://www.google.nl/search?q=Iq+world+map&hl=nl&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=V7vWUanuHofmtQaspoDQBQ&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=644#biv=i%7C5%3Bd%7ClWYeQs_MuyT-zM%3A

You can exactly see where asians are, where arabs are, where whites are, where blacks are.

[HoreTore]

Looks pretty obvious to me http://www.google.nl/search?q=Iq+world+map&hl=nl&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=V7vWUanuHofmtQaspoDQBQ&ved=0CCsQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=644#biv=i%7C5%3Bd%7ClWYeQs_MuyT-zM%3A

We've already dealt with the lack of credibility of those, Frags. I can't be bothered to go through it again, sorry.

[Fragony]

We've already dealt with the lack of credibility of those, Frags. I can't be bothered to go through it again, sorry.

You stopped believing people who have a phd to show? That's good. Why doubt me so much this is all official.

[The Stranger]

:book2:

[Fragony]

:book2:

Looking at maps must be hard for you. Australians are just a little bit behind of northern-europe.

[The Stranger]

Looking at maps must be hard for you. Australians are just a little bit behind of northern-europe.

it seems it is hard for you... the australians are the lowest number on the map. the reason i edited my post is because the first map i checked didnt state that it is about indigenous people only. the second one did state it, so i edited.

the face you show here is not pretty frag, its quite sad tbh.

[Fragony]

Check the map mia muca, next time be a little bit better at life

Edit, it could be taken as an insult, none intended

[The Stranger]

maybe you should give a better link then. because i get a google page with a lot of maps, and the first one and second one are these:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/92/AverageIQ-Map-World.png
http://www.vdare.com/images/032206_World_IQ.JPG

[Sarmatian]

Neither is a Norwegian, we're groomed as midfielders.


Defenders actually. Usually bad. The coaches teach them the difference between a ball and a player and explain that you're allowed to kick the former and not the latter, but, when they can't get to the former because the latter already got it, you're than allowed to kick the latter to stop him taking the former past you.

After they master that, they're released upon unsuspecting world. And may God have mercy on their opponents.

[Fragony]

I don't really know, but they all show the same http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&q=iq+world+map&oq=iq+wor&gs_l=img.1.0.0i19l3j0i5i19l2.2986.7032.0.10186.6.6.0.0.0.0.167.729.0j6.6.0....0...1ac.1.19.img.jX1Ct fevEdM&biw=1024&bih=644&sei=lMLWUf77FsqNtQao-YC4CQ

[The Stranger]

well i suppose i get different stuff then. because i see maps about IQ of indigenous people, of the country as it is now, I see maps about GDP, some maps dont even make sense. It is a right mess...

like this one... http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/RacesoftheWorld2.jpg

[HoreTore]

You stopped believing people who have a phd to show? That's good. Why doubt me so much this is all official.

I don't believe phd's who are universally discredited by the entire scientific community, no. Especially when that community is backed up by research showing the opposite.

But honestly, we've been through this at great length already. I can't be bothered to repeat it. Expect nothing more than snide comments ridiculing you from me on this.


Defenders actually. Usually bad. The coaches teach them the difference between a ball and a player and explain that you're allowed to kick the former and not the latter, but, when they can't get to the former because the latter already got it, you're than allowed to kick the latter to stop him taking the former past you.

After they master that, they're released upon unsuspecting world. And may God have mercy on their opponents.

That's the ones who either can't run or can't be bothered to(I was a defender...).

[Fragony]

I don't believe phd's who are universally discredited by the entire scientific community, no. Especially when that community is backed up by research showing the opposite.

It was are perfectly fine numbers, all acounted for. They are from The wealth of Nations and I understand it's not your thing but there is no lie in it.

[HoreTore]

It was are perfectly fine numbers, all acounted for. They are from The wealth of Nations and I understand it's not your thing but there is no lie in it.

They are not from Adam Smiths masterpiece, no.

Anyway, the work you tried to refer to has been widely discredited, as has Lynn himself, who now sits on the board of a foundation founded by this charming fellow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickliffe_Preston_Draper). Lynn calls for the complete expulsion from Europe and the US of all people from cultures he gives lower IQ scores and calls for an intensive eugenics program which includes banning women from the workplace in order to make them have more babies.

Yeah sure, not a nazi at all that guy.

[Fragony]

They are not from Adam Smiths masterpiece, no.

Anyway, the work you tried to refer to has been widely discredited, as has Lynn himself, who now sits on the board of a foundation founded by this charming fellow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickliffe_Preston_Draper). Lynn calls for the complete expulsion from Europe and the US of all people from cultures he gives lower IQ scores and calls for an intensive eugenics program which includes banning women from the workplace in order to make them have more babies.

Yeah sure, not a nazi at all that guy.

He kinda was I guess. But differentiating between cultures remains an excellent idea nevertheless. Of course that is racist, but it's also a pretty good idea. What use do we have for people who are by our standards pretty much retarded. Go herding goats on the mountain you rolled of, it won't work

[HoreTore]

He kinda was I guess. But differentiating between cultures remains an excellent idea nevertheless. Of course that is racist, but it's also a pretty good idea. What use do we have for people who are by our standards pretty much retarded. Go herding goats on the mountain you rolled of, it won't work

Am I to understand that this means you've gone full nazi by now? You are advocating the removal of people of non-European descent from Europe?

Forgive me if I misunderstood your post, but your poor syntax and grammar leaves me guessing whether or not this is your idea.

[The Stranger]

Am I to understand that this means you've gone full nazi by now? You are advocating the removal of people of non-European descent from Europe?

Forgive me if I misunderstood your post, but your poor syntax and grammar leaves me guessing whether or not this is your idea.

Might be that he just wants to expell people who dont meet a certain IQ-bar.

[Fragony]

Am I to understand that this means you've gone full nazi by now? You are advocating the removal of people of non-European descent from Europe?

Forgive me if I misunderstood your post, but your poor syntax and grammar leaves me guessing whether or not this is your idea.

Me a nazi lol, my mon would get very angry at me. But I am open to for the discussion on differences in race, I see no problem in that. And my English isn't THAT bad, I know it isn't perfect but it would have been if I tried

[Kadagar_AV]

Might be that he just wants to expell people who dont meet a certain IQ-bar.

Maybe we could send them to Somalia in an effort to raise the nations average IQ?



Regardless, can I take it that most people here are OK with racial science, just that they question the use of it? That is more than fair. I wrote this primarily because of my frustration of the taboo and ban on racial science.


Some seem to think races play a very minor part of what being a person is...

If we found some DNA strings that control behavioristics, and can tell that it differs between racial groups... Should that not mean that special consideration must be shown when these two groups of people must co-exist?

As a sidenote, is it possible that behavioristics that one group feel as "natural" could cause a feeling of "ill at ease" in the other group, and that it's actually solely DNA that dictates this?

[HoreTore]

Me a nazi lol, my mon would get very angry at me. But I am open to for the discussion on differences in race, I see no problem in that. And my English isn't THAT bad, I know it isn't perfect but it would have been if I tried

Your English is that bad unfortunately, as I have no idea what the point you're trying to make actually is. I have several alternative interpretations of your last two posts, and no idea which one is correct.

[HoreTore]

Maybe we could send them to Somalia in an effort to raise the nations average IQ?



Regardless, can I take it that most people here are OK with racial science, just that they question the use of it? That is more than fair. I wrote this primarily because of my frustration of the taboo and ban on racial science.


Some seem to think races play a very minor part of what being a person is...

If we found some DNA strings that control behavioristics, and can tell that it differs between racial groups... Should that not mean that special consideration must be shown when these two groups of people must co-exist?

As a sidenote, is it possible that behavioristics that one group feel as "natural" could cause a feeling of "ill at ease" in the other group, and that it's actually solely DNA that dictates this?

That's totalitarianism without any thought or consideration for the individual.

Stalin is proud.

[The Stranger]

Maybe we could send them to Somalia in an effort to raise the nations average IQ?


Why not just kill them?

[Fragony]

I several alternative interpretations of your last two posts, and no idea which one is correct.

You I, you don't have them? English is confusing. You just failed. Badly.

[HoreTore]

You I, you don't have them? English is confusing. You just failed. Badly.

Not trying to ridicule you for lacking english skills, just saying that I can't figure out what the meaning of your last two posts is, and so I'm unable to respond to them.

[Kadagar_AV]

Why not just kill them?

Huh?

I assume I don't have to explain why killing people is bad. I am more curious as to why you choose to write that?

Do you think my thoughts are on a level with people ready to murder in the name of some racial or human cleansing? Really?

[The Stranger]

If you are willing to treat some people so inhumane by forcefully (this can also be forcefully by law, not necessarily by brute force) removing them from their homes, then I think my question is warrented.

Now I know you haven't said that, and that your response was most likely some sort of a joke, so if the above doesn't apply to you, then don't feel pressured to answer the question. I didn't expect an answer to begin with.

[Fragony]

Not trying to ridicule you for lacking english skills, just saying that I can't figure out what the meaning of your last two posts is, and so I'm unable to respond to them.

Read your sentence again Snorry

I'll help you, "I several alternative interpretations'

'I have' is how it's done mia muca

[Kadagar_AV]

If you are willing to treat some people so inhumane by forcefully (this can also be forcefully by law, not necessarily by brute force) removing them from their homes, then I think my question is warrented.

Now I know you haven't said that, and that your response was most likely some sort of a joke, so if the above doesn't apply to you, then don't feel pressured to answer the question. I didn't expect an answer to begin with.

What I wanted to point out, was that outcries and emotional responses such as yours is just why it's SO DAMN HARD to do something constructive in this field of research.

Fact is that different human populations quite often have a very hard time co-existing peacefully. Having people screaming "BLOODY MURDER" when someone wants to be constructive and research into it, isn't necessarily the best idea.

[HoreTore]

Read your sentence again Snorry

I'll help you, "I several alternative interpretations'

'I have' is how it's done mia muca

I did read it again, and have added the missing "have".

That, however, does not bring me any closer to understanding your two posts.

[The Stranger]

What I wanted to point out, was that outcries and emotional responses such as yours is just why it's SO DAMN HARD to do something constructive in this field of research.

Fact is that different human populations quite often have a very hard time co-existing peacefully. Having people screaming "BLOODY MURDER" when someone wants to be constructive and research into it, isn't necessarily the best idea.

I have no clue what you are talking about, if your post is supposed to point out any of that, then you completely misunderstood what you were replying to. I was responding to Horetore's confusion about the alleged meaning of Fragony's post. You made some sort of witty remark, and if it wasn't that, then I don't know what the point of your post was. Because my post had nothing to do with race in itself, it was about intelligence, so it would include the mentally ill, the mentally handicapped etc. You then said that we could send those people to Somalia (to make Somalia a smarter country). I asked you then, why not just kill these people, because A) I already explained that in the previous post and B) if you send retarded people to Somalia, they will certainly die, so why not just kill them outright.

I've not said anything about the research, or its usefulness, as of yet. And I don't really see any constructive debate going on, just one person venting his rage because he feels he is not allowed to be a racist (for better or worse), and another one just venting bullshit.

[Fragony]

I agree that the ability of different cultures to get along needs to be looked at long and hard...

But the problem is that such research is born of a need to get results that explain current social issues. It is almost impossible to separate potentially racist* research from the actual racists who would jump on it. It is a pandora's box.

*(actually racist, not this "I'm taking it back!" version of the word I see Frags throwing around)

Not throwing that around at all, I am just not opposed to the theory that there are differences, actually judging people would be something different. So yes it is racist, but it's not hostile. Black is not another shade off white. Why the que care isn't that kinda obvious. Does is matter, no.

[HoreTore]

I agree that the ability of different cultures to get along needs to be looked at long and hard...

How could any "solution" to that, if it was found to be problematic, possibly be implemented without throwing away our current views on liberty, respect for the individual and democracy?

[HoreTore]

I don't think any government that exists today should be in the business of finding cultural "solutions," but I do think that science would benefit from a better understanding. Please read the rest of my post though, because I do believe such research is too tempting to actual racists.

Ah, well then I guess I misread your post: I assumed those doing the looking would be the government or some other similar agent, not that you were talking about the need for more research, of which I completely agree.

Luckily for the both of us, there's an entire scientific field devoted to that kind of study: social anthropology.

Sadly for the racists and nazis, they tend to come up with conclusions who oppose the nazi agenda...

[Fragony]

I kinda dislike what I seem to be getting here. I don't even vote.

[Fragony]

Huh? No, nobody thinks your a Nazi. I do think that you remind me of some people I have known here in the states that like to flirt with racist ideas, but I don't think anyone thinks you actually are. :shrug:

That would be nice

[HoreTore]

Racists and Nazis are precisely why this field of study needs expanding, IMO. They happen for a reason.

*Or perhaps not so much expanding, as a focus of attention. Its that time of day where my semantics get blurry... ~:smoking:

If those people were the kind of people who cared about facts and science, they wouldn't be nazis in the first place.

They believe the holocaust did not occur. Will even more WW2 research help them realize how stupid that notion is?

Force is the way to deal with fascism. Always have been, always will be.

[HoreTore]

Not quite what I meant.

What I mean is that there's a fine line between political science and cultural anthropology. There's a point where the politics of culture becomes more of a cultural issue than a political one. I think Nazis and Racists are an unavoidable fact of life, caused by the never-ending friction between cultures that we barely understand because of political correctness. That is, of course, just speculation.

"Politically correct" is a term almost exclusively used by people who are upset that other people call them on their racist and/or hateful opinions. I don't see how it's a major problem in anthropological research.

Nazis may be unavoidable, but put them in the intense spotlight of the community and law enforcement and they'll disappear as soon as they came. You'll always have one or two loners, but I don't see why we should care about them. Organized nazis are surprisingly easy to dismantle.

I'm clueless about your southern KKK'ers though.

[HoreTore]

I'm using politically correct in its intended fashion. It doesn't matter if you don't like the phrase, or who traditionally uses it, because I'm using it correctly.

You use it in its intended fashion? You believe research is limited and guided by the political program of the communist international? ~;)


The biggest reason I think the cultural triggers for Nazism should be studied more is because I see a high potential for it here in our own political landscape. I still can't get over how eerily similar the Tea Party is to early Nazis, both in message and method. And the NeoCons before them. It is only a matter of time before one of these groups gets the "right" mix of nationalism and racism for it to "work." Nazism is seductive not because of political reasons, but because of cultural reasons. In my opinion.

Now that I can agree with.

[Fragony]

"Politically correct" is a term almost exclusively used by people who are upset that other people call them on their racist and/or hateful opinions. I don't see how it's a major problem in anthropological research.

Nazis may be unavoidable, but put them in the intense spotlight of the community and law enforcement and they'll disappear as soon as they came. You'll always have one or two loners, but I don't see why we should care about them. Organized nazis are surprisingly easy to dismantle.

I'm clueless about your southern KKK'ers though.

Can't you see that that loner could be you. Don't mind me saying it but you might want to talk to someone. I say this with all the best of intentions, I got a third eye for that stuff. There is something not quite right.

[HoreTore]

Can't you see that that loner could be you. Don't mind me saying it but you might want to talk to someone. I say this with all the best of intentions, I got a third eye for that stuff. There is something not quite right.

Are you asking whether I'm a social loner? If so, then no.

Or are you asking if I'm a political loner? Both yes and no. I'm a pretty standard Norwegian social democrat, like most norwegians are(only weirdos think they're special), but the most common trait of the socialist is that we rarely agree with others on political issues. We rarely agree with conservatives, but we never agree with fellow socialists.

[Kadagar_AV]

Are you asking whether I'm a social loner? If so, then no.

Or are you asking if I'm a political loner? Both yes and no. I'm a pretty standard Norwegian social democrat, like most norwegians are(only weirdos think they're special), but the most common trait of the socialist is that we rarely agree with others on political issues. We rarely agree with conservatives, but we never agree with fellow socialists.

The most common trait among Norwegian socialists is that they fail to understand why a post like:





Also, a job that does not enable you to live a good, healthy life is an irrelevant job and should be cut.

... would be offensive for the very vast majority of the world. I think that what you have yet to understand is - "when" the workers of the world unite, as you long for, you would be one of the first against the wall.

[Ironside]

What I wanted to point out, was that outcries and emotional responses such as yours is just why it's SO DAMN HARD to do something constructive in this field of research.

Fact is that different human populations quite often have a very hard time co-existing peacefully. Having people screaming "BLOODY MURDER" when someone wants to be constructive and research into it, isn't necessarily the best idea.

Horetore named the actual research done on this, namely social anthropology and it's running fine. Trying to focus purely on the genetical implies that the differences are irrevocable, while cultural differences does seem to have a much larger influence according to studies.

Second, the in population spread is huge compared to the general cultural differences. Take IQ for example. 99,7% of the population are within the 100±45 range, or 55-145. Unless you're really close to the edges, a 5+ bonus won't matter much, in particular since most people aren't min-maxing.



If we found some DNA strings that control behavioristics, and can tell that it differs between racial groups... Should that not mean that special consideration must be shown when these two groups of people must co-exist?

Larger factors are cultural ones (cultural anthropology) and induvidual ones (psychology). There's really no trait that needs to be considered outside this. Say that there's more common with the "might is right" types in Somalia than in Sweden. The way to deal with that type is still very similar, with some cultural adaptions (and research is certainly done on that), so on induvidual level it's already covered by research.


As a sidenote, is it possible that behavioristics that one group feel as "natural" could cause a feeling of "ill at ease" in the other group, and that it's actually solely DNA that dictates this?

No. That would mean a people that can never comprehend you. Such a people has never been met (they wouldn't be able to work with you in any way). Sweden is possibly the most crazy left wing country in the world (we're talking about much more things than taxes and communism), but somehow Swedes understands other countries and haven't hold the title for that long (we weren't a left country say 100 years ago). There's a small version of it, in the way that some traits are heavily influenced by genetics. So say someone with an aetheist brain (extremely low response to "faith") would not not feel at home in a very religious community, even if they grew up there. But there haven't been a large scale systematic slaughter towards such a specific trait long term in history.


Not quite what I meant.

What I mean is that there's a fine line between political science and cultural anthropology. There's a point where the politics of culture becomes more of a cultural issue than a political one. I think Nazis and Racists are an unavoidable fact of life, caused by the never-ending friction between cultures that we barely understand because of political correctness. That is, of course, just speculation.

You're falling into at least two traps: The "understanding equals tolerating" and that racists wants to educate themselves. You can perfectly understand the reasons behind say "honour murders" while vehemently opposing its practice. And racists are usually either in no or fairly low contact with the culture they oppose. It's quite rare at the point where you're constantly seeing the induviduals rather than the group and they prefer to keep it that way because the group they oppose are baad. Are the West less racist than they used to be? Yes. Are we more political correct? Yes.

[HoreTore]

Yes, the world is indeed mostly against the concept of a living wage. The majority of the world long for a 15-hour day which doesn't pay enough to feed their families.

I am of course assuming that you're living on Mars, and that Mars is the world you are speaking of.

[Hax]

Does anyone here consider Arab to be a race? Just asking.

[Kadagar_AV]

Ironside, I would respond... But I am not sure you know what you are talking about?

When you write stuff like:

"Larger factors are cultural ones (cultural anthropology) and induvidual ones (psychology). There's really no trait that needs to be considered outside this."

... I don't know. It sounds like you have been brainwashed.

You actually, REALLY, think nurture has EVERYTHING on nature?

Would you go with the same logic on dogs? Do you see anthropological and psychological factors in, say, what dog is more likely to kill a human? Or do you accept that some breeds of dogs are more likely to attack?

[Kadagar_AV]

Yes, the world is indeed mostly against the concept of a living wage. The majority of the world long for a 15-hour day which doesn't pay enough to feed their families.

I am of course assuming that you're living on Mars, and that Mars is the world you are speaking of.

What are you responding to, and if it was me, how would that make sense compared to what I wrote?

[Montmorency]

Much like a white guy would make a rather safe bet if he bet his DNA would more resemble another white guy than a yellow guy.

Back in my high school genetics class, we took a field trip to the Cold Spring labs. There's this one gene (its name and functions being irrelevant for our purposes), for which East Asians generally have two alleles, and Europeans generally have no alleles.

I have two. Suffice to say that my father is from Belarus and my mother from Georgia.

Interestingly, one of the Chinese students and the one Vietnamese student had no alleles. The only Angloid in the class had one.

Furthermore, it turns out that American "whites" resemble American "Negroids" more closely (genetically) than the latter do East-African "Negroids". Also, there is more genetic variation within that continent than anywhere else in the world. But you've heard all that before, and small-time data for a single gene alone can't serve as the basis for accepting or discarding a category...

The point is, it's a fine thing to investigate potential "racial" categories for its own sake, but on the other hand it's incredibly counterproductive to start by begging the question and stating things like, 'Clearly whites/Asians/Negroids/etc. are such...'

There is likely no such thing as a Negroid, just as there is likely no such thing as a Klaxbagorgan. "Asian" is as useful a racial category as "American" is. "White", then, is just another useless knee-jerk category, and at worst an active attempt to appropriate the prestige associated with the label.

Just because categories of a certain scope are more manageable or useful for governmental demographers than others might be doesn't mean these should automatically be premised in all cases and used as a basis for doing serious racial analytics.

I'd like to hijack Horetore's sig because then I can more or less say it snappily:


The most important white spot now is to deconstruct the minorities, and do it properly, so that they can never be called minorities again.

Also, I notice that many here are revisiting the nature/nurture fallacy. Look, guys, if anything epigenetics should have made clear by now that they both have 100% influence because attempting to differentiate causal force between two aspects of an inherently continuous process is surely futile. When examining the water cycle, would anyone here seriously ask something like, 'Which has more influence on the evaporation of water on Earth: The existence of bodies of water, or the existence of heat sources? Which has more influence on the quantity of H20 present on Earth: Water vapor, or rainfall?' It just doesn't make sense as a question.

Nature vs. nurture per se really needs a reformulation, just as the race debate does...

[HoreTore]

What are you responding to, and if it was me, how would that make sense compared to what I wrote?

You quoted me arguing in favour of living wages, saying that it is not what the majority of the world wants. I replied by calling your assertion BS. The workers of the world do in fact long for a living wage.

[HoreTore]

like to hijack Horetore's sig because then I can more or less say it snappily:

My sig is actually a follow-up to what you changed it to. It was answer to a "now what?" question after presenting results from a major study on minorities, so your change is likely what they had in mind before they started the study.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think it is fair to say that there is a very real social stigma attached to advocating racial theories, which is somewhat understandable given the history of the last few centuries. From a scientists point of view, it is always unhealthy to feel political or social pressure when conducting research down particular avenues.

I also think this stigma is used to stifle political debate. Given Marx's comments on racism as a means of justifying class distinctions, it is somewhat ironic to see modern lefties rally behind the current capitalist establishment and use anti-racism to demonize working-class/underclass people who see immigrants taking their jobs and houses and voice their grievances accordingly. When real concerns are ignored, demonized and exluded from political engagement, they tend to get more militant and extreme, and in this case turn to Nazism and the like out of frustration.

In the past this is why I've taken it upon myself to defend some BNP etc types. And I guess sometimes sympathy can turn into support, it's a human reaction. But for all that I don't think race means much. At the end of the day blacks can go to Uni and get top degrees and hold down top jobs, and they shouldn't be managing to do this is their race was half as dumb as racists tend to say they are. It seems to me that social, political, cultural, and economic factors offer the best explanations for any supposed racial differences. I used to live in a 100% white area that would put the Bronx to shame in terms of brutal violence, gangs and general social breakdown.

I think there might be some rare exceptions to this rule in cases where a population group has been genetically isolated for long periods of time. For example, this may explain the spectacularly low IQ scores of Australian Aborignes, which I find hard to explain in relation to equally poor and educationally-deprived countries. It is also possible that the brutality of the slave trade and the labour they endured may have made African Americans slightly better than others at very physical sports - but this is not true of all blacks.

All in all, there is no reason to believe in any non-negligble intelligence differences between humans from whatever background, and certainly skin colour would be a poor indication of them.

[HoreTore]

I also think this stigma is used to stifle political debate. Given Marx's comments on racism as a means of justifying class distinctions, it is somewhat ironic to see modern lefties rally behind the current capitalist establishment and use anti-racism to demonize working-class/underclass people who see immigrants taking their jobs and houses and voice their grievances accordingly. When real concerns are ignored, demonized and exluded from political engagement, they tend to get more militant and extreme, and in this case turn to Nazism and the like out of frustration.

The attitude you describe amongst the working class is an attitude Lenin would have classed as chauvinism, and I honestly can't see how you could possibly tie that in with Marxism without throwing away the majority of marxist theory.

Marxism is, and has always been, international.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The attitude you describe amongst the working class is an attitude Lenin would have classed as chauvinism, and I honestly can't see how you could possibly tie that in with Marxism without throwing away the majority of marxist theory.

Marxism is, and has always been, international.

I am not a Marxist, and was simply pointing out the irony that anti-racism should become a means for the estabishment to suppress the working-classes.

[Strike For The South]

Eugenics. Purview of the 17 year old with his subscription to Scientific American

[HoreTore]

I am not a Marxist, and was simply pointing out the irony that anti-racism should become a means for the estabishment to suppress the working-classes.

It is a means to suppress chauvinism, and that is perfectly in line with Marxism.

Marx was fully aware of the reactionary nature of large segments of the working class. I can't remember what Marx had in mind to solve it, but Engels' plan was genocide.

You should be happy we've switched to name-calling.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It is a means to suppress chauvinism, and that is perfectly in line with Marxism.

Marx was fully aware of the reactionary nature of large segments of the working class. I can't remember what Marx had in mind to solve it, but Engels' plan was genocide.

You should be happy we've switched to name-calling.

Right, turning to Nazism and racism is reactionary, but pointing out that big-businesses lobby to ensure a supply of cheap foreign labour at the expense of the ordinary worker (and indeed the solidarity of their movement) is not. This has been the traditional stance of many communist parties, has it not? Certainly, the French Communist Party springs to mind.

[HoreTore]

Right, turning to Nazism and racism is reactionary, but pointing out that big-businesses lobby to ensure a supply of cheap foreign labour at the expense of the ordinary worker (and indeed the solidarity of their movement) is not. This has been the traditional stance of many communist parties, has it not? Certainly, the French Communist Party springs to mind.

The Marxist response is to integrate those workers into the unions and demand equal pay, not throw them out or demand they keep out. We point the finger at the bourgiouse for trying to play divide and conquer, sure, but all efforts must be directed at them, and so every insult thrown at immigrant workers by the working class must be fought.

The immigrant worker is an ally and a comrade, not an enemy.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The Marxist response is to integrate those workers into the unions and demand equal pay, not throw them out or demand they keep out. We point the finger at the bourgiouse for trying to play divide and conquer, sure, but all efforts must be directed at them, and so every insult thrown at immigrant workers by the working class must be fought.

The immigrant worker is an ally and a comrade, not an enemy.

I am not suggesting blaming or villifying foreign workers, I am simply stating that Marxists ought to oppose the process that brings them here, since it is fundamentally damaging to the working-classes and their condition.

Importing what are usually young men over on a temporary basis to fill jobs needed by the natives, purely because those natives might demand half-decent conditions and pay, is a classic example of the excesses of the labour market, and I find it odd that you would support it. Alas, integration and the like sound great as buzz words, but I doubt the young guys coming over for such work in what they see as a land of opportunity would care much for the conditions of the developed world's working-classes. They are there to get their pay check and get out.

Hence, you support both capitalist excesses, and weaken the solidarity of the working-classes.

[Papewaio]

What I wanted to point out, was that outcries and emotional responses such as yours is just why it's SO DAMN HARD to do something constructive in this field of research.

Fact is that different human populations quite often have a very hard time co-existing peacefully. Having people screaming "BLOODY MURDER" when someone wants to be constructive and research into it, isn't necessarily the best idea.

Very correct.

US Civil War
World War II or as GC would name it EU Civil War
Syrian Civil War
Australian Coffee Festival

Pick the odd one out. Oh look three very blood thirsty wars fought by very similar genetic and cultural populations. The fourth a multicultural festival. Your thesis is gaining ground with speed.

[HoreTore]

I am not suggesting blaming or villifying foreign workers, I am simply stating that Marxists ought to oppose the process that brings them here, since it is fundamentally damaging to the working-classes and their condition.

Importing what are usually young men over on a temporary basis to fill jobs needed by the natives, purely because those natives might demand half-decent conditions and pay, is a classic example of the excesses of the labour market, and I find it odd that you would support it. Alas, integration and the like sound great as buzz words, but I doubt the young guys coming over for such work in what they see as a land of opportunity would care much for the conditions of the developed world's working-classes. They are there to get their pay check and get out.

Hence, you support both capitalist excesses, and weaken the solidarity of the working-classes.

.....And that is why the unions demanded that foreign workers(ie. Poles) must be paid the exact same wages as Norwegian workers.

They get paid the same, they take no jobs from anyone since we have negative unemployment and they unionize. What's not to like?

Also the concept that employment should favour natives on the grounds that they are natives is an inherently un-marxist idea. It's chauvinism, in marxist terms.

The Norwegian unions do fight the attempted unsettling of working conditions, but they don't do it by denying anyone the right to work. It is done by demanding Norwegian pay for Norwegian jobs and fighting temp work. The nationality of those who gets the pay is utterly irrelevant, the important bit is the number on it.

[HoreTore]

I think the fundamental difference between your two viewpoints is that Rhyf is looking at this from the practical POV of a worker who has to compete with foreigners. That has to do with more than wages--a foreign worker almost always works harder, because he has more to lose. From Rhyf's point of view this means not only is the little guy getting boned, but the ideals of tolerance are getting abused to the benefit of the big guy, and as a weapon against the little guy.

Whereas HoreTore, on the other hand, is arguing for your traditional marxist socialism without borders, which aspires to ideals lofty enough to remove them from the practical reality of their abuse. As I understand it.

The union answer to a globalized market and multinational cannot be to close the borders and protect our own, the answer must be globalized unions. I read an interview with an american union leader who followed this idea. His union not only recruited members on US soil, but they also opened up union affiliates and recruitment in the foreign branches of every involved company. So, if the workers were treated badly in one place, the workers went on strike in every country that company operated in. That kind of thinking is the way forward. Despite the international agenda of the workers movement, there's surprisingly little international collaboration. There's some propaganda exchange, but extremely little coordinated solidarity action.

That must change, or else globalization will be the death of Marxism. A solidarity which ends at the border is a dead solidarity.

[Kadagar_AV]

Very correct.

US Civil War
World War II or as GC would name it EU Civil War
Syrian Civil War
Australian Coffee Festival

Pick the odd one out. Oh look three very blood thirsty wars fought by very similar genetic and cultural populations. The fourth a multicultural festival. Your thesis is gaining ground with speed.

I'd go with:

US civil war - You brought this up as a positive example? Why not view it as an example of problems that have existed historically, and still influence us today? Can you REALLY claim that USA has overcome its racial differences, and is now a smooth working machine where racial integrity isn't still a factor?

10325

Let's face it. People vote by moving.

What I am saying is, anywhere you go in the world, cultural groups will click together. We can either accept it and base our society on it, or we can pretend that any such tendency is evil nazism.

However, still doesn't explain how you can see "problem solved" when racial maps of the USA clearly shows VERY clear racial borders.

EDIT: Only went through your first example. As I pretty damn clearly proved your point wrong, I'll bother with the rest of your examples once we've covered this.

[HoreTore]

I'll buy that for a dollar. Its a good answer at least.

All I know is that the entire global economy is absurd, and surely not sustainable. Beyond that, I cannot say.

I have a hefty dislike of step-by-step plans resulting in an idealized society(that line of thought is way more profound in kadagar's posts than yours though), as I cannot see how it can avoid turning totalitarian. Thus, I am not in the business of proposing any "final solutions"(marxism does, but I'm not a marxist).

I do observe a rising gap between the haves and the have nots though, and if it continues to rise to even more absurd levels I cannot see how it can avoid ending in bloodshed of some kind, as all historical evidence points to as the end result of massive inequality. I can't see any wonder fixes either(and such fixes are usually totalitarian as well), so I am left to applaud every measure which may contribute to lessen the gap, and boo every measure that will increase the gap.

The problem is unfortunately within the capitalist system itself. It's easier to make even more money if you have money than it is to make money if you have none, and that dynamic will ensure an ever widening gap. It will also ensure that the money a person ever smaller correlation with the work and effort that person put in, and more and more to do with luck(as in privilege).

The younger generations always get smarter and wiser than the older generations though, hopefully the toddlers of today will find the answer in 40 years.

[Strike For The South]

Self segregation and chattel slavery are two distinct issues.

On the whole the US has done extremely well assimilating migrant groups.

In fact the biggest "ethnic problem" in the US has to do with the two groups that have been here the longest. I fail to see your point, just more of your petite bourgeois bigotry.

[Kadagar_AV]

HT, explain why everywhere you go cultural groups tend to click together.

And then please explain why it is beneficial for a national society to within that nation import a totally different culture.

I could understand it if it's people from Japan going to Guatemala to teach them martial arts.

What I fail to understand is why a rather successful nation would benefit from opening up their borders freely, for people who don't even know the alphabet?

I do understand that the well-doing nation should accept political refugees if they go in the host nations notion of what is right.

What I do not understand is why a well doing nation have some obligation to take care of the people of nations who do less well (unless it's caused by natural disasters or so).

Would I happily give everything I have to make Norwegians safe after a meteor hit? OF COURSE!!

Would I happily give my job to a Somali person who hasn't even been involved in some movement against their state... No.


Does that make me evil?

[Kadagar_AV]

On the whole the US has done extremely well assimilating migrant groups.

.

Oh strike... I tend to ignore you, but once in a while you offer these little gems.

When you say the US has done well assimilating immigrants... Are you referring to the now common practice of a "peace pipe"?

You know, reading your post some people could get the hilarious idea that the USA is an example of how immigration is GREAT!!

But of course everyone intelligent enough to turn on a computer is intelligent enough to understand that the natives (or "Indians" as you call them), isn't as happy.

As an American, you are free to be pro-immigration only when you get a native to say "Thank you for the blankets"*.

EDIT: I don't think it's 100% proven that natives were handed contaminated blankets. We do however know that USA has acted rather bad towards the ethnic people, and we know that the ethnic people have no or very little say in political questions.

[Strike For The South]

"The blankets" is a fallacy. Germs spread through benign contact. I believe there is one recorded instance of weaponizing germs in the colonies, only after the effects of smallpox had been recorded. So it was really moot, the Indians were already dead. Please try not to attribute the spread of germs in the new world as some sort of master plan, because it wasn't.

I also don't understand you point. American-Indian relations in no way resemble modern first world immigration policy. Unless of course your understanding of immigration only extends to "people were someplace, they are now someplace else". This is entirely possible given your lack of mental faculties. The power balance is totally reversed. Immigrants from 3rd world countries don't come with advanced technology and state backing.

Isn't it also well documented that the "problem" is not with the immigrants but with their children? This would point to a cultural explanation rather than your psuedo science. You talk about the illiterate masses but isn't that what Europe needs? High education+ a low birth rate creates a need for low skill labor. Why would an educated or high skilled worker emigrate to a lower rung? Now if you don't like bringing in that kind of labor, so be it. Run for office and draft a bill.

Until then please keep your "OMG WERE ALL DO BREEDS" bullshit to yourself.

[Kadagar_AV]

"The blankets" is a fallacy. Germs spread through benign contact. I believe there is one recorded instance of weaponizing germs in the colonies, only after the effects of smallpox had been recorded. So it was really moot, the Indians were already dead. Please try not to attribute the spread of germs in the new world as some sort of master plan, because it wasn't.

I also don't understand you point. American-Indian relations in no way resemble modern first world immigration policy. Unless of course your understanding of immigration only extends to "people were someplace, they are now someplace else". This is entirely possible given your lack of mental faculties. The power balance is totally reversed. Immigrants from 3rd world countries don't come with advanced technology and state backing.

Isn't it also well documented that the "problem" is not with the immigrants but with their children? This would point to a cultural explanation rather than your psuedo science. You talk about the illiterate masses but isn't that what Europe needs? High education+ a low birth rate creates a need for low skill labor. Why would an educated or high skilled worker emigrate to a lower rung? Now if you don't like bringing in that kind of labor, so be it. Run for office and draft a bill.

Until then please keep your "OMG WERE ALL DO BREEDS" bullshit to yourself.

Uh... Yeah... That would summarize my position quite well.

"people were someplace, they are now someplace else" <- Yes that is indeed the position I am trying to defend.

Sorry I skipped through your probably drunken rambling and went straight to the point.

Are you ACTUALLY thinking that the natives of America benefited from immigration? No really, that was pretty much the question I asked.

Are you out to get me?
Are you trolling?`
Are you having a problem accepting your own morality in immigration issues when you suddenly remember that you are part of a immigration force that more or less totally wiped out the ethnic population?

[HoreTore]

HT, explain

No. After reading your childish accusations towards Papewaio, I'm done replying to you until you've shown some maturity.

[Ironside]

Would you go with the same logic on dogs? Do you see anthropological and psychological factors in, say, what dog is more likely to kill a human? Or do you accept that some breeds of dogs are more likely to attack?

Uhm, yes on both accounts? If I'm going to determine what adult dog with a determinable history (aka I'm not taking a gamble buying a puppy) to have around my child I'm a idiot if I'm only going by the breed.
The violent puppy that was later abused from the calm breed are more dangerous than the calm one raised well from an aggressive breed. In the case of the extremely bred dogs we do have unique genetic factors to take into consideration, like when you have practically zero overlap in size, but in humanity that factor appears to be insignificant in comparation.

That's why the breed becomes irrelevant on an induvidual level.

Also, last time I checked, humanity isn't stuck with their jobs from birth (outside the caste system and some smaller exceptions) and aren't bred for it, so we aren't exactly puppy buying.

[Fragony]

We have something to take into consideration then, as inbreeding is very normal in north-africa and the middle-east, with all the consequences. More prone to mental and physical disease, significantly lower iq, et etcetra

[The Stranger]

Very correct.

US Civil War
World War II or as GC would name it EU Civil War
Syrian Civil War
Australian Coffee Festival

Pick the odd one out. Oh look three very blood thirsty wars fought by very similar genetic and cultural populations. The fourth a multicultural festival. Your thesis is gaining ground with speed.

his post didnt make sense in the first place =_=

[Papewaio]

My response was sarcastic. Civil wars are the least civil.

Look at the US Civil war. Cousin vs Cousin, brother vs brother.

It wasn't a battle between vastly different cultures it as close as you can get with only a tiny divergence.

More Americans died then every other war combined.

The idea that we are automatically against those who have different genetics isn't very scientific and ignored that most violence in history has been genetically similar neighbor on neighbor violence.

The biggest racial divide in all humans based on genes is men and women.

That X vs Y is the biggest chromosome variant out there. Does that mean we should be wary of women.

[Fragony]

Of course you should be wary of women

[The Stranger]

Of course you should be wary of women

specially your mother :P

[Ironside]

We have something to take into consideration then, as inbreeding is very normal in north-africa and the middle-east, with all the consequences. More prone to mental and physical disease, significantly lower iq, et etcetra

The lower IQ only comes into play when there's retardation and similar (aka a not properly devoloped brain), not for the average person, from what I've red (that's also what makes most sense). So while those cases goes up with a factor of 2-3 for the worst regions, the effect on general IQ seems to be quite low. There's also low correlation between cousin marriage frequency and those national IQ maps.

It does certainly influence other factors like fertility and child mortality as well though.

Had they been breeding systematically for specific traits, then you would probably see a clear difference.

[The Lurker Below]

10325

Let's face it. People vote by moving.


Would I happily give my job to a Somali person who hasn't even been involved in some movement against their state... No.


Pardon me sir, it seems that it is a valued patriotic maneuver when white people move away? Why can't that be the case when blacks do? It matters not, you're a racist, self-admittedly. You seem to imply in the OP that in your country that it is illegal to behave in a racist manner. Is this true? In my country we cannot discriminate on the basis of race when it comes to service, employment, and other public business type stuff. That does not mean we have a legal obligation to not discriminate in our personal affairs. There are laws that govern you personal behavior? Or are you simply upset that most of your community aren't racists like yourself?

[Kadagar_AV]

Pardon me sir, it seems that it is a valued patriotic maneuver when white people move away? Why can't that be the case when blacks do? It matters not, you're a racist, self-admittedly. You seem to imply in the OP that in your country that it is illegal to behave in a racist manner. Is this true? In my country we cannot discriminate on the basis of race when it comes to service, employment, and other public business type stuff. That does not mean we have a legal obligation to not discriminate in our personal affairs. There are laws that govern you personal behavior? Or are you simply upset that most of your community aren't racists like yourself?

First of all, I completely agree that the issue isn't some "white" tendency, yes of course all the races (/cultures) choose to separate themselves from the rest. I fail to understand how you could have read anything else in my arguments?

Me being a racist.... Tricky question. I admit to being a racist by the swedish definition (in Sweden you are a racist if you dare think things such as "uncontrolled immigration from countries with high rates of HIV will result in economical means being removed from the well-fare state.)

I am probably not a racist by your definition. Mainly because I don't seek confrontational solutions, and that I am very much for some level of immigration and international solidarity.


What makes me upset when it comes to Sweden's view on nationalism, immigration and such questions, is different factors on different levels, so I am afraid I can't give you a short answer. Mainly because I assume our cultures are different, and no one can comprehend another persons problems in their culture, without understanding their culture as well, no?

If you are interested in a longer answer though, I'd say my grievances would be, in order of importance:

A) You do still have some sort of freedom of speach here, but that only protects you in your role as civilian. The state is, however, trying hard to kill freedom of speach in the society we actually act in.

Remember that this is Sweden, WAY more jobs than you are used to are state jobs. And many instances in society (railroad, hospitals, schools and so on) were very formerly under the states control, not private hands. As part of the state selling out to private business, part of the deal was that the private business had to keep to the states "Plan for every persons equal value).

So, eventhough you have freedom of speach, you have little freedom of actuall expression.

As an example, You could not keep your job in a school, if you as teacher among other teachers said that you believe women and children should get off of sinking boats first.

As a truck driver, you can not be a member of the truck drivers union (remember unions is still a BIG thing here), if you commit thought crimes such as thinking thinking that illegal immigrants shouldn't have free health and dental care here.


B) It's a very hostile debate climate. You are either PC or Hitler. I'm not joking, there is absolutely no grey areas to keep a open debate in.

Problem is that Sweden only ever had 2 major movements politically the last century. The "right" (or socialists as you all would say), and the "left" (the communists as you all would say), it's all on a red scale though, remember.

The left took the question of immigration to their heart in the 80's, and used that to be the "good and caring" side. It was great!!!

We were a rich country, we needed more people to come to work, we had had rather positive experiances with previous immigration (mainly work oriented). And wouldn't it be AWESOME if we could make more people Swedes?!

The right then did something COMPLETELY unexpected, and started cheering on immigration even MORE than the left. However, they didn't want qualified labour, no, they wanted drones to dump wages in the factories and for the working men.

Aaaaand... This created some sort of political meltdown.

The right support big business, so of course they LOVE the idea of the uncivilized third world coming here to dump wages for the workers, and as a bonus they get someone to walk their dog and clean their home.

The left started the whole immigration thing to have a weapon against the right. They took a VERY strong position about how helping the third world by moving people here is "good", and that everyone is equal and thus doesnt it matter what countries we migrate people from.

So, the absolute ONLY ones having any type of critical or at least questioning attitude, was the very darkest powers of the brownish right, the extreme nationalists, racists, nazists...

And the debate hasn't stepped up from there.

Can you see why that can be problematic for a person where politics is way more about grey scales and slippery slopes than good vs evil.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Kad, are you unhappy because people like yourself are being unfairly branded as 'racist', or are you actually advocating racism?*

*To avoid confusion over definitions, by 'racism' I mean the idea that humans can be categorized into a clear and (probably) hierarchical system of races. Indeed, it seems to me that part of your frustration stems from the fact that the term racism is being used loosely to apply to other things like not liking certain cultures etc. And yet, you seem to advocate some real racism as well. That's why I don't quite get where you are coming from.

[HoreTore]

A person who likes to see things in shades of grey?

Rarely have I seen a more black and white representation of reality than your post. Anti-immigration opinions are nt hunted down and silenced in Sweden. Sweden has by far the largest neo-nazi representation in Scandinavia, who regularly march around. You even have a neo-nazi party represented in Riksdagen! Truckers and teachers have all sorts of opinions on immigration, and are still members of unions. That some douchebag with retarded opinions got kicked out does not equal "impossible to have divergent views". Still, unions are political organizations with political programs, and I don't really see why unions should be forced to include members who do not share the unions political agenda(they still do though).

And the bottom line: Swedes should be banned from whining about immigration until you end your colonization of Grünerløkka and Grønland. Take back your 50.000 migrant workers, you lousy, penniless foreigners.

[Kadagar_AV]

Well Rhy, how to put it...

I do believe there are differences between the races, skill colour is one that pops to mind. Are the racial differences enough to make it impossible to co-exist with a set geographical border, imho def no.

As I see it, a racist would see it as a problem if two Swedish parents adopted a negroe child, no? Whereas I wouldnt.

A racist also probably wouldnt both date and have loads of friends from very various parts of the world.

Do I believe that, say, yellows are more intelligent than blacks? I have read interesting theories from both sides of this perspective, and I fail to draw a clear conclusion.

There's too much political spinning and wishful thinking in that line of research, and to much personal emotion for it to be relevant in many years to come.


However, I am against moving big blocks of culture and just dumping them down somewhere else, hoping for the best. And it's hard to tell, at times, what are racial and cultural questions as they quite often walk hand in hand.

If two cultures meet, and there becomes problems because of it... It really doesnt help the national identity if the groups can be so clearly seen apart that it's not about colour of shoelaces, or the pinn on your breast that tell you apart. But what keep you apart is something so basic, that we are born with it.

Look at where ever people from different groups for different reasons have been forced to live together. Has it worked out well?

So here comes the problem... It's hard to tell race apart from culture at times. Look at those maps of the USA, is it racial or cultural factors that have dictated where people choose to live and who they choose to have around themselves.

Ask yourself this:

Black parents in Harlem adopts a Chinese kid. Would the kid have had a better chance of finding his place in the world and building relationships if he would have been adopted from Africa?

So racial FACTORS can still play a role in society, mainly because it doesnt take an Einstein to understand that 2 different populations looking different and acting different WILL create friction. We can accept it, or we could pretend we are all the same wonderful starlights that HT wants to have people think.

So, yes... Races can definitely play a part in, say, how we psychologicly characterize others. And if it influence important things like that, it surely influence society at large.



TL:DR

NO, I am not a racist as I don't think one race has supremacy, neither do I think any race should strive for it. I am very much for immigration from all over the world (around 10% of any nations pop should be people from other countries imho, so good ideas and thoughts can spread).

YES, I am a racist as I acknowledge that there are racial differences (such as skin colour). I am also a racist because I don't think you can take a shovel to an ant mound, grab a big piece of the mound, and dump that piece on another mound.

I really want the Ant Starlights to at once happily start working together, but the racist in me can't help but think that this idea creates problems in at LEAST one of the two mounds.

[Papewaio]

Funny thing is I like 98% of Australians am an Imigrant.

I like 25% of Australians was born over seas.

I like a huge chunk of Aussies married outside my ethnic group.

Which is to be expected considering I have a Welsh mum and a Kiwi dad and a Swedish surname.

Every statement made about ethnic groups not getting along is falsified by my daily commute, my daily meals, my daily work, my daily life.

[Kadagar_AV]

Funny thing is I like 98% of Australians am an Imigrant.

I like 25% of Australians was born over seas.

I like a huge chunk of Aussies married outside my ethnic group.

Which is to be expected considering I have a Welsh mum and a Kiwi dad and a Swedish surname.

Every statement made about ethnic groups not getting along is falsified by my daily commute, my daily meals, my daily work, my daily life.

Aborigines?

Is the native population doing well? Is their culture respected in the country? You are all one big happy family?

Is crowding as much a problem in Australia as it is in other parts of the world?

Can you accept that there are many viewpoints on these issues, and that yours by no means must be the correct one.

[Papewaio]

The 2% who aren't immigrants would be the Aboroginal Australians.

Like most indegionous populations history has not treated them well.

It however does not mean that individuals do not get along well with each other.
"Indigenous Australians have a high interracial marriage rate. According to the 2000 Census in 1996, 64% of all married or de facto married couples involving an Indigenous person were mixed (i.e., only one partner was indigenous). In 55% of such couples, the Indigenous partner was female" - Wikipedia

Australians only removed aborigines from the wildlife census in 1967. They still deal with horrendous racism. The overall vector is improving, but it certainly isn't perfect. It does not however counter the idea of multiculturalism, it tempers it with programs to improve the institutionalized apartheid like racism of the past.

Our treatment of our indegenious people in the past is testament why programs of racial segregation are wrong.

As for land. Yes Australia is huge. As for potable water not so. But I believe with the right infrastructure we could increase carrying capacity by ten times now. Problem is rather then think big our pollies try scare tactics about boat people.

Of course there are many viewpoints on these issues. It's a big grey world with scintillating colour thrown in.

[The Stranger]

Countries of Origin... which oddly all appear to have the same groups year after year, which happen to be a tiny minority.

And Yanks and Carribbeans. A mix of white and black. For all I know that is the optimal mix for sprinters.

Did I say that pointed purely to anything?
And no one sprints int Europe, or Asia...?

I guess winning the 100m has so little fame and money few can be bothered to try...

~:smoking:

i give this reasoning some thought, and i would like to ask you a question

if you believe that the current hall of fame on the 100m reflects a biological difference between two races, do you also believe that the hall of fame for let's say Jazz music, reflects a similar biological difference? Or would you say it is a cultural/demographic/socio-economic/insert difference?

[The Stranger]

TL:DR

NO, I am not a racist as I don't think one race has supremacy, neither do I think any race should strive for it. I am very much for immigration from all over the world (around 10% of any nations pop should be people from other countries imho, so good ideas and thoughts can spread).

YES, I am a racist as I acknowledge that there are racial differences (such as skin colour). I am also a racist because I don't think you can take a shovel to an ant mound, grab a big piece of the mound, and dump that piece on another mound.

I really want the Ant Starlights to at once happily start working together, but the racist in me can't help but think that this idea creates problems in at LEAST one of the two mounds.

Maybe it is me, but to say that there differences when there are differences is not racist.

Being racist is saying that there differences that matter when they do not, or when the differences do not exist. Being racist is applying value to differences when the differences do not matter. Being racist is making false claims from universals to particulars and the other way around: to claim for example that all negroes are faster on average, you are a negro thus you must be fast or to say you are lazy, you are negro, thus all negroes are lazy. That's being racist.

[Kadagar_AV]

*does a vood00-necro dance*

2017, where are we at?

How come we are able to discuss genetic traits in dog breeds, but to suggest that East Asians is more intelligent than "white folks" is an absolutely muted debate?

[a completely inoffensive name]

You made me think Kad came back

[Pannonian]

Both this and Fringemantra are old members with alt accounts, I'd guess.

[Kadagar_AV]

You made me think Kad came back

No [pending] Sherlock.

*please do note the absolute top thread*

[Fragony]

lol hi Kds wb, how are you and your significant self doing

[Husar]

How come we are able to discuss genetic traits in dog breeds, but to suggest that East Asians is more intelligent than "white folks" is an absolutely muted debate?

We're too intelligent to fall for dumb old tricks.

[Kadagar_AV]

We're too intelligent to fall for dumb old tricks.

Danish military have a problem with immigrants not performing to standards in their IQ test.

Swedish military have a problem with - yadda yadda...

How come some genetic variances are more apt than others?

Might it be because of genetics?

Or do you refuse genetics, thus pushing science back some Ummmmpteenth of deceniums?

Fragony, my dog (wolf) is just AWESOME as ever and forever :D

Game Of Thrones - references are being tossed wildly about as I walk down central Stockholm with him NOT on a leash ;)

You should see the asians and their photo-ops....

[Gilrandir]

Danish military have a problem with immigrants not performing to standards in their IQ test.

Swedish military have a problem with - yadda yadda...

How come some genetic variances are more apt than others?

Might it be because of genetics?

Or do you refuse genetics, thus pushing science back some Ummmmpteenth of deceniums?

Fragony, my dog (wolf) is just AWESOME as ever and forever :D

Game Of Thrones - references are being tossed wildly about as I walk down central Stockholm with him NOT on a leash ;)

You should see the asians and their photo-ops....

IIRC, you were about to embark on some political career (at least you said it was time to do something instead of just talking) before you took sabbatical. Any progress on it?

[Husar]

Danish military have a problem with immigrants not performing to standards in their IQ test.

Swedish military have a problem with - yadda yadda...

How come some genetic variances are more apt than others?

Might it be because of genetics?

Or do you refuse genetics, thus pushing science back some Ummmmpteenth of deceniums?

Perhaps I'm just genetically too advanced for some people to understand?

http://time.com/91081/what-science-says-about-race-and-genetics/


Tribalism seems to be the default mode of human political organization. It can be highly effective: The world’s largest land empire, that of the Mongols, was a tribal organization. But tribalism is hard to abandon, again suggesting that an evolutionary change may be required.

One shouldn't try to argue with superior people who have evolved beyond one's primitive tribal genes.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

As I have noted elsewhere, there is little or no support for any sub-group's genetics mattering on IQ scores, problem solving, etc. Genetics profoundly affects any individual, but within group variation in genetic difference equals or exceeds between group variance thus strongly suggesting that such labels as "race" are useless beyond a few basic shared physical characteristics on a genetic level.

Cultures have a profound impact however. Are students taught to think critically about information or does the culture value acceptance of authority and not questioning one's elders? Does the culture preference conformity to group norms or individual achievement and how do these values manifest? These things can make a profound impact on IQ scores (since those tests mostly preference Western style learning) group compatibility, etc.

So if the Danes are having a problem with immigrants performing to standard, it is likely because the immigrants come from a culture or cultures the preference different values and approaches to learning that leave them under-prepared by Danish standards.

[Montmorency]

IIRC, you were about to embark on some political career (at least you said it was time to do something instead of just talking) before you took sabbatical. Any progress on it?

Let's hope not!

[Greyblades]

Normally I'd agree, but considering he's in sweden I cant exactly say it would be a downgrade to have him in government.

[Viking]

[...] within group variation in genetic difference equals or exceeds between group variance thus strongly suggesting that such labels as "race" are useless beyond a few basic shared physical characteristics on a genetic level.

Such formulations seem rather deceitful. If the vast majority of the human genome is invariant between populations, then the average difference between populations will be tiny, while the differences within populations can be large, even if different populations have distinct signatures (drowned out in the average by the overwhelming amount of similarities).

You only need to change a single nucleotide (e.g. an A to a T) in the human genome to get a big change in phenotype. Sickle-cell disease (http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/125/17/2597.long) is one such example.

Many single-nucleotide variations (SNPs) specific to certain populations (https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-15-437) are also known, as one would expect. And apparently:


Despite their potential significance, population-specific SNPs have not been studied extensively.

[Montmorency]

Such formulations seem rather deceitful. If the vast majority of the human genome is invariant between populations, then the average difference between populations will be tiny, while the differences within populations can be large, even if different populations have distinct signatures (drowned out in the average by the overwhelming amount of similarities).

You only need to change a single nucleotide (e.g. an A to a T) in the human genome to get a big change in phenotype. Sickle-cell disease (http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/125/17/2597.long) is one such example.

Many single-nucleotide variations (SNPs) specific to certain populations (https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-15-437) are also known, as one would expect. And apparently:

But these formulations are exactly the point. The two questions of how to draw populations and the presence or significance of distinguishing characteristics between populations are open questions, not givens.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Such formulations seem rather deceitful. If the vast majority of the human genome is invariant between populations, then the average difference between populations will be tiny, while the differences within populations can be large, even if different populations have distinct signatures (drowned out in the average by the overwhelming amount of similarities).

You only need to change a single nucleotide (e.g. an A to a T) in the human genome to get a big change in phenotype. Sickle-cell disease (http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/125/17/2597.long) is one such example.

Many single-nucleotide variations (SNPs) specific to certain populations (https://bmcgenomics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2164-15-437) are also known, as one would expect. And apparently:

I am all for more study on the issue.

My larger point was the profound impact of culture as opposed to genetics on a number of the issues being brought up. After all, first generation Americans generally evince IQs, values, etc. fully in line with those of multi-generational Americans. The difference is the change in culture, not the small degree of genetic change possible in one generation.

[Pannonian]

I am all for more study on the issue.

My larger point was the profound impact of culture as opposed to genetics on a number of the issues being brought up. After all, first generation Americans generally evince IQs, values, etc. fully in line with those of multi-generational Americans. The difference is the change in culture, not the small degree of genetic change possible in one generation.

See how the Pakistani immigrants fare in the UK and US. The former tend to come from rural areas, and are generally conservative (by Pakistani standards). The latter tend to come from professional classes, and are generally liberal (by Pakistani standards). Genetics are the same.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

See how the Pakistani immigrants fare in the UK and US. The former tend to come from rural areas, and are generally conservative (by Pakistani standards). The latter tend to come from professional classes, and are generally liberal (by Pakistani standards). Genetics are the same.

Indeed. One of my daughter's good friends in high school comes from such descent. Her father came to the USA for school and stayed, working as a chemical engineer. Thinks of himself as an entrepreneur, though he is pretty corporate. Is a practicing muslim, though not the strictest in keeping halal. Plays Spanish style guitar and is always working on his golf game. Her mother was the arranged bride who came here and now teaches science at an Islamic private school. She adopted the hijab here about10-12 years back, is fairly devout and stricter in her religious observance than her husband. Neither of her girls went to that private school though they have the money and they both are passionate about their two girls getting excellent grades and education. Both girls eschew the hijab, love films, and adore rap music. Though both travel yearly to Pakistan, neither likes to speak Urdu at home even though they are fluent. Neither has anything resembling a central Asian accent.

In short, the cultural mores of the USA are as, if not more, salient to them then the cultural values the parents were raised with.

[Viking]

But these formulations are exactly the point. The two questions of how to draw populations and the presence or significance of distinguishing characteristics between populations are open questions, not givens.

They rather give the impression that the questions are no longer open.

If, as a different scientific paper (http://www.genetics.org/content/176/1/351) puts it: "individuals from different populations can be genetically more similar than individuals from the same population", then what use appears at first glance in comparing different populations? Such formulations may be technically and logically correct, but I think they are easy to misinterpret (as the same paper also puts it: "The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them.").

I presume that over selected regions of the human and chimpanzee genomes, a human can be more genetically similar to a chimpanzee than other humans. In the context of this debate, it would be interesting to see how large such regions can be.



I am all for more study on the issue.

My larger point was the profound impact of culture as opposed to genetics on a number of the issues being brought up. After all, first generation Americans generally evince IQs, values, etc. fully in line with those of multi-generational Americans. The difference is the change in culture, not the small degree of genetic change possible in one generation.

The powerful potential of culture and, presumably more importantly, things like education (maybe a part of culture by some definitions), is why people pointing at actual IQ studies as evidence that some groups are smarter than others because of their genetic heritage are getting it wrong. The understanding of the topic should be far too inadequate to confidently draw such conclusions at present.

For the same reason, opposing activists insisting, for whatever reasons they might have, that such genetic differences do not exist (some might dodge the question altogether by branding its debate as 'racist', I guess) are also getting it wrong.

[Sarmatian]

For the same reason, opposing activists insisting, for whatever reasons they might have, that such genetic differences do not exist (some might dodge the question altogether by branding its debate as 'racist', I guess) are also getting it wrong.

They do not exist. The paper you quoted says exactly that.

As far as I know, there are no papers that show a particular nation, or race more intelligent than others. There are thousands of pseudo scientific papers that show that, though.

[Gilrandir]

As far as I know, there are no papers that show a particular nation, or race more intelligent than others.

http://simplyjews.blogspot.com/2014/03/russian-culture-minister-extra.html

Vladimir Medinsky, Minister of Culture of the Russian Federation:
"I think that after all the disasters that hit Russia in the twentieth century, beginning with World War I and ending with the "Perestroika", the fact that Russia has been preserved and developed, proves that our people have one extra chromosome."

[Viking]

They do not exist. The paper you quoted says exactly that.

As far as I can see, none of the papers discuss intelligence.

[Kadagar_AV]

IIRC, you were about to embark on some political career (at least you said it was time to do something instead of just talking) before you took sabbatical. Any progress on it?

Yepp, all the questions I worked for are now public data :)

The state can no longer hide the information as it is out, now the problem is just that people are quite often somewhat to retarded to get information... But when the nation goes to hell, at least they can't blame it on data about it not being public :)

Last rape-survey from 2012 - 2017 (all cases) was real cute, 95%+ of assault rapes commited by immigrants, as an example.

[totally unacceptable]


Perhaps I'm just genetically too advanced for some people to understand?

http://time.com/91081/what-science-says-about-race-and-genetics/



One shouldn't try to argue with superior people who have evolved beyond one's primitive tribal genes.

Speaking of tribal primitive genes, how's celebrating New years in Cologne doing?




As I have noted elsewhere, there is little or no support for any sub-group's genetics mattering on IQ scores, problem solving, etc. Genetics profoundly affects any individual, but within group variation in genetic difference equals or exceeds between group variance thus strongly suggesting that such labels as "race" are useless beyond a few basic shared physical characteristics on a genetic level.

Wrong.

Sure whites and blacks are genetically rather similar, just like asians and whites are, or [removed] are... and and and...

With that said, there are still DNA-differences between the groups, and yes, more important than skin colour.


Cultures have a profound impact however. Are students taught to think critically about information or does the culture value acceptance of authority and not questioning one's elders? Does the culture preference conformity to group norms or individual achievement and how do these values manifest? These things can make a profound impact on IQ scores (since those tests mostly preference Western style learning) group compatibility, etc.

So if the Danes are having a problem with immigrants performing to standard, it is likely because the immigrants come from a culture or cultures the preference different values and approaches to learning that leave them under-prepared by Danish standards.

Culture also have an effect on dna.

Inbreeding is one factor, ties in closely with intelligence. Arabs and Africans tend to inbreed way more than whites, as an example.

Who gets a child (or more) is also a cultural factor that effects DNA... Is the society making strong but dumb guys get kids, or non-aggressive and smart? In example.




I am all for more study on the issue.

My larger point was the profound impact of culture as opposed to genetics on a number of the issues being brought up. After all, first generation Americans generally evince IQs, values, etc. fully in line with those of multi-generational Americans. The difference is the change in culture, not the small degree of genetic change possible in one generation.

This even went to court in the states, court basically said "yeah black people are stupid".

Even today USA have to accept their University students after race, otherwise it would be real unfair.

It's hard to get in if you are east asian, real easy if you are black.

Blacks seem to need some help on the intellectual field.

I think it's called "Affirmitive Action", google it..


See how the Pakistani immigrants fare in the UK and US. The former tend to come from rural areas, and are generally conservative (by Pakistani standards). The latter tend to come from professional classes, and are generally liberal (by Pakistani standards). Genetics are the same.

Genetics are not the same, in Pakistan people evolved different in the rural areas compared to in the cities.


As far as I can see, none of the papers discuss intelligence.

There's a whole internet of information :)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Wrong.

Sure whites and blacks are genetically rather similar, just like asians and whites are, or [removed] are... and and and...

With that said, there are still DNA-differences between the groups, and yes, more important than skin colour.

Of course there are differences. Asiatics and Amerinds are highly likely to carry the marker for intolerance/allergy to ethanol. Certain subgroups are prone to sickle cell anemia. West African descent persons are likely to carry a higher percentage of "fast twitch" muscle fibers, etc. Most such things are largely "physical" differences. I have yet to see good research indicating a base difference in intelligence issues based upon race.


Culture also have an effect on dna.

Inbreeding is one factor, ties in closely with intelligence. Arabs and Africans tend to inbreed way more than whites, as an example.

Who gets a child (or more) is also a cultural factor that effects DNA... Is the society making strong but dumb guys get kids, or non-aggressive and smart? In example.

Now THIS is an elegant argument. We know that close inbreeding does dampen the genetic potential for intelligence, at least over the course of several generations. I also acknowledge that cultures whose values skew breeding pairings could end up reinforcing those genetic traits that contribute to a reduced propensity for genetic intellectual factors.

The SOURCE has nothing to do with race per se, but can manifest itself in a fashion that appears "racial" depending on how completely the culture in question and the phenotype in question cohere.

Good argument Kadagar

[Fragony]

Chicken or egg, what came first.

[Kadagar_AV]

Of course there are differences. Asiatics and Amerinds are highly likely to carry the marker for intolerance/allergy to ethanol. Certain subgroups are prone to sickle cell anemia. West African descent persons are likely to carry a higher percentage of "fast twitch" muscle fibers, etc. Most such things are largely "physical" differences. I have yet to see good research indicating a base difference in intelligence issues based upon race.



Now THIS is an elegant argument. We know that close inbreeding does dampen the genetic potential for intelligence, at least over the course of several generations. I also acknowledge that cultures whose values skew breeding pairings could end up reinforcing those genetic traits that contribute to a reduced propensity for genetic intellectual factors.

The SOURCE has nothing to do with race per se, but can manifest itself in a fashion that appears "racial" depending on how completely the culture in question and the phenotype in question cohere.

Good argument Kadagar

WHO (World Health Organization) made a report about Arabs and inbreeding. It seem hard to find on the internet now :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage_in_the_Middle_East

Search from there.


However, other factors plays in.

Here in the north, as an example, you have to plan on having no/next to no food for some 4-6 months of the year.

In Africa and in the Middle East you do not.

People who didn't plan got weeded out.

The list goes on and on and on and on...

We have seen what happens in Sweden when we accept Arabs and black people.

The nation has gone to ****.

Sweden used to be an exemplary nation, now we are way behind other European nations. All because of arabs and blacks.

Some areas the police have lost control in completely, that would have been unthinkable when I grew up.






Chicken or egg, what came first.

Whenever I read your posts, and remember you are sane, I still have to remind myself you live a whiff away from Amsterdam, smoooooking country.

[Fragony]

It's a sane question. SF put himself in a dificult position, he would first have to take for a fact that races exist and have different traits if he wants to ask himself where they come from.

I don't smoke by the way I am more the cocaine-type

[Kadagar_AV]

It's a sane question. SF put himself in a dificult position, he would first have to take for a fact that races exist and have different traits if he wants to ask himself where they come from.

I don't smoke by the way I am more the cocaine-type

In all fairness, anyone jabbering against me is in a though position on these issues 2017 - as the facts are now proven in Sweden and out there.

Again, 95% assault rapes being from immigrants over the last years comes to mind. These facts are now irrefutable, as we have gone through all the court cases.



Oh an Frags, if you do cocaine (I don't know if it was a joke or not), please stop and seek help - or just stop - even better.

[Fragony]

Hey it's me, i already know about Sweden and it's curious suicide for quite some time

Belongs in Immigration-topic though

[Kadagar_AV]

Hey it's me, i already know about Sweden and it's curious suicide for quite some time

I might write a book about it one day...

Did you know Sweden in 2010 changed it's ground-laws (in USAnian that would mean "the constitution")

Sweden is now a multi-cultural country.

It takes 2 sitting governments to change it :(

So 2022 is the fastest those pesky swedes could redeem it, but given it's soon 2018 and not a word, 2026 is the first "sane-world" fastest.

2030 is the real term from me, IMHO.





If Sweden hasn't turned into Yugoslavia by then :(

[Fragony]

What would you have the constitution changed into? It's already too late, changing the constitution was just a kick in the face abandon all hope thee that stays in this place. Sweden will just have to serve as an example to otbers on what reckless immigration-policy and mass-denial and cultivated denial can do

[Kadagar_AV]

What would you have the constitution changed into? It's already too late, changing the constitution was just a kick in the face abandon all hope thee that stays in this place. Sweden will just have to serve as an example to otbers on what reckless immigration-policy and mass-denial and cultivated denial can do

Chill mate, Yugoslavia managed to sort it, I am sure Sweden will as well.

Regardless, people from Africa or close thereby don't tend to like the arctic cold all that much anyway.

So I am sure that it in 50-100 years it will have worked itself out for the best, with Sweden being from the arctic circle and up - with a new caliphate around the Stockholm and southern regions.




All the mass-graves that will be required troubles me somewhat, but hey, I don't live in Sweden so... :)

[Fragony]

Not what I would like to see. You are a bit of my mr Hyde KAD's, what can happen if you take what I think to the exreme

[Kadagar_AV]

Not what I would like to see. You are a bit of my mr Hyde KAD's, what can happen if you take what I think to the exreme


Sweden already have 95% of assault rapes with immigrants as perputators.

Sweden already have no idea how to get inbreeds into a modern western society.


We have some woods in Sweden... So we have 3 outcomes.

1. These people will go back to some agricultural background around the arctic circle and make their life as they please.

2. We welcome them into a modern wellfare nation and **** them if they don't make it.

3. Taxpayers will continue to pay like the highest taxes in the world - and still have to give birth in cars or get sent to Finland - if they want to have kids, as the wellfare state has fallen - because of blacks and arabs in the gene-stock.



On TotalWar.Org I should mention that there is a 4th option, I just shudder to think about it.

Germany 1930's
Yugoslavia 1990's

[Husar]

Congratulations for going multicultural! :2thumbsup:

[Husar]

On TotalWar.Org I should mention that there is a 4th option, I just shudder to think about it.

Germany 1930's
Yugoslavia 1990's

Actually, on second thought, you are absolutely right, on this forum we should mention the unfortunate but necessary ways in which good old Germany dealt with retarded people who stand in the way of greatness, purity and public health.

http://www.autism-pdd.net/testdump/test21335.htm
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-ii/the-horrific-nazi-gas-vans-the-mobile-gas-chambers.html
https://www.ushmm.org/information/exhibitions/online-exhibitions/special-focus/nazi-persecution-of-the-disabled

:clown:

[Gilrandir]

Yepp, all the questions I worked for are now public data :)

The state can no longer hide the information as it is out, now the problem is just that people are quite often somewhat to retarded to get information... But when the nation goes to hell, at least they can't blame it on data about it not being public :)


So your political career is over?


Chill mate, Yugoslavia managed to sort it, I am sure Sweden will as well.


Yugoslavia is no more. Do you wish Sweden to follow suit?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Yugoslavia is no more. Do you wish Sweden to follow suit?

The tone of his posts doesn't suggest that he WISHES Sweden to be dismembered -- only that he thinks it all too likely to happen.


Frags/Kadagar:

While I have been arguing that "race" is not the core issue of the problem, and that a clash in cultural values is the core concern, I am actually in agreement with your basic premise. The current immigration and refugee policies being used in Sweden, The Netherlands, and numerous other EU countries are well intentioned but quasi-suicidal.

Multi-culturalism is a pipe dream and pursuing that mirage is going to tear at the foundations of Western culture in Europe until their is either a collapse or a horrific pogromatic backlash.

Cultural assimilation with some degree of cultural hybridity can be made to work provided that the influx of newcomers does not functionally overwhelm the existing core culture through sheer numbers. Over time, assimilation DOES create changes and adaptations in the existing host culture and generally for the better. Assuming all cultures are "equally valid" is to devalue your own identity -- which isn't healthy individually or societally. By all means, we should acknowledge that our own cultural values may be imperfect or lived up to imperfectly, and we should respect others' culture of itself.

This does NOT mean you have to accord equal treatment/use/allowance for others' cultural values when they are seeking to join your polity. A decent respect for the newcomer is appropriate, but does not mandate and should not mandate that natives functionally forgo their own values and beliefs to preference the those of the newcomers.

My own country was founded and built by immigrants (most voluntary, most European by ancestry). Yet long periods of my country's history have featured restrictions to immigration -- mostly to allow for assimilation before accepting another influx of newcomers. The nearly unrestricted refugee and immigration policies occurring in some EU countries seems to me almost suicidal.

[Fragony]

Sweden and the Netherlands really can't be compared, things are pretty cozy here. What we call the leftist church is a dyig breed, in Sweden that is very different, they are frankly simply not sane, and the arrogance is bewildering, what doesn't work must work because even thinking that it won't is unacceptable. The outcome of the sum must be 100, and if it isn't they will just change the numbers. They know they are lying to themselves but the social control accepts no dissent. The Netherlands is much more realistic, the Dutch don't really care about being insensitive and things are better here because of that. Multifundamentalists still exist but not as many anymore

[Hooahguy]

On TotalWar.Org I should mention that there is a 4th option, I just shudder to think about it.

Germany 1930's
Yugoslavia 1990's
Seriously?

:inquisitive:

[Kadagar_AV]

So your political career is over?

It was boring, and I got everything that I wanted done.

Some months ago several heads rolled among the most immigration friendly politicians, and information that the state previously kept from the citizens are now out in the open.

So my work is done, nothing more of interest for me there.




Yugoslavia is no more. Do you wish Sweden to follow suit?

I have been alarming that mass graves is the likely outcome from the politics Sweden has run since the mid 90's... Growing up with the Yugoslavian war, I have been very worried that Sweden heads in that exact direction.

Do you wish sweden to... Geez, what a retarded question.


Seriously?

:inquisitive:


Statistically in history Hooah, what is the likely outcome when Islam cross into new territory?

[Hooahguy]

Statistically in history Hooah, what is the likely outcome when Islam cross into new territory?
You could say the same thing about Christianity, could you not? The spread of Christianity was not exactly very peaceful either.

Very few religions, if any, do not have significant blood on their hands.

[Kadagar_AV]

You could say the same thing about Christianity, could you not? The spread of Christianity was not exactly very peaceful either.

Very few religions, if any, do not have significant blood on their hands.

I asked specifically about Islam though, so answer the question instead of being all "But others are bad too!!"

Again, what is the likely outcome when Islam gets into new territory?

[Husar]

Statistically in history Hooah, what is the likely outcome when Islam cross into new territory?

So how much Islam did Germany have in the 1930s or are you dodging your own arguments now?

[Hooahguy]

I asked specifically about Islam though, so answer the question instead of being all "But others are bad too!!"

Again, what is the likely outcome when Islam gets into new territory?
My point was that Islam is nothing particularly unique when it comes into new areas.

[Kadagar_AV]

So how much Islam did Germany have in the 1930s or are you dodging your own arguments now?

Jews were the problematic religious group at that time. I've never been much pro-religion, have I?


My point was that Islam is nothing particularly unique when it comes into new areas.

So you agree that it's problematic and generally leads to conflict.

So you give me right that Sweden (or the west at large) shouldn't have accepted loads of arabs and africans?

[Husar]

Jews were the problematic religious group at that time. I've never been much pro-religion, have I?

Can you explain that in any way or are you just quoting Hitler?

[CrossLOPER]

So you agree that it's problematic and generally leads to conflict.
Why specifically Islam, though, fam?

[Kadagar_AV]

Can you explain that in any way or are you just quoting Hitler?

Of course I can...

If you look at the universities at that point, jews were overrepresented... They also were very much so in the banking sector...

When a religious minority control public sectors, grudges generally follow suit. That's just how people are.


Why specifically Islam, though, fam?

Why Islam is a bigger problem than others?

Have you SEEN what has happened to the nations that accepts muslims?

Rapes, terrorism, shootings aso goes up.

Wellfare, social security, economy aso goes down.



I liked my Sweden with social security and a general feeling of safety.

Now the electricity can't even be down a few hours without plunderings and riots among these chaotic immigrants.


And again, we would have had 95% less assault rapes without these types of people. It's just disgusting, to be frank.

[Husar]

Of course I can...

If you look at the universities at that point, jews were overrepresented... They also were very much so in the banking sector...

When a religious minority control public sectors, grudges generally follow suit. That's just how people are.

That's still not even half an actual argument.
Where was the problem with them being overrepresented? Do you also think it's a problem when whites and men are overrepresented in corporate leadership roles and other powerful positions?

And are you saying the grudges are justified or that we should model society acoording to the lowest common denominator?

You have slept with married women according to yourself, should we just shrug if one of the husbands were to chop your head off? Because sleeping with married women causes grudges and that's just how people are, right? :shrug:

[Greyblades]

Eh, pogroms might be a tad unlikely but I suspect that should this keep getting worse this will end with something resembling the post war explusion of germans from the warsaw pact nations.

[Husar]

Eh, pogroms might be a tad unlikely but I suspect that should this keep getting worse this will end with something resembling the post war explusion of germans from the warsaw pact nations.

Because when someone says Germany 1930s and Yugoslavia 1990s, the first thing that comes to mind are pogroms. :rolleyes:
How about answering the important questions instead of deflecting from them?

[Greyblades]

I wasnt talking to you, though I realize I should have been more specific to who I was responding to. Tired from krazelic.

Kadagar has become rather inarticulate and has some... odd ideas about biology but he is not wrong in asserting that the methods of dealing with outsiders which western europe tends to revile have not been rendered in anyway impossible to resurrect and, without a significant reduction in backwardness of those denizens of the middle east ushered in, that taboo against of demographic removal is dying.

However as mentioned I do not agree with kadagar's belief it will happen in the vein of the swastika, it will be done in the style of the sickle, at worst a trail of tears.

[Pannonian]

Can you explain that in any way or are you just quoting Hitler?

Member thankful for this post:
Tribesman

Woah.

[Husar]

Woah.

I know, I feel honored by the master. :bow:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Now THAT is a name from the past. I joined the .org and my exposure to the Backroom was Tribesman, Red Harvest, and Gawain going at it....

[a completely inoffensive name]

Studies have shown that the white race is actually one of the lowest in terms of IQ.

For evidence, see all the unemployed Nazi's spending their time :daisy:posting on the internet.

[Montmorency]

Kadagar has become rather inarticulate and has some... odd ideas about biology but he is not wrong in asserting that the methods of dealing with outsiders which western europe tends to revile have not been rendered in anyway impossible to resurrect and, without a significant reduction in backwardness of those denizens of the middle east ushered in, that taboo against of demographic removal is dying.

Once again I note that if Muslim immigrants are backward then it is in much the same way that the "Western" right is backward.

If Muslim citizens can be expelled, then so can right-wing ones.

[Gilrandir]

It was boring, and I got everything that I wanted done.

Some months ago several heads rolled among the most immigration friendly politicians, and information that the state previously kept from the citizens are now out in the open.

So my work is done, nothing more of interest for me there.


One so passionate about his convictions wouldn't have stopped at just making some information public. I guess he would try to see them implemented.





I have been alarming that mass graves is the likely outcome from the politics Sweden has run since the mid 90's... Growing up with the Yugoslavian war, I have been very worried that Sweden heads in that exact direction.

Do you wish sweden to... Geez, what a retarded question.


One giving examples of failed states of the past as a paragon for his projected state models should be aware of the results of such policies.

[Fragony]

I am not that worried about a Yugoslavia-scenario, when people are left alone multicultural sociey's work fine. The multicultural-left simply won't do that though, thankfully more people are starting to understand that enforced multi-culturalism doesn't work, it's a silly hobby for cause-starved wealthy white people with a mother-complex

Meet the multicultural left (pica) http://www.dvhn.nl/groningen/Jesse-Klaver-onthaald-als-popster-in-de-Oosterpoort-in-Groningen-21987264.html notice anything?

[Beskar]

On a related topic, here is a tweet which made me think of this thread:
https://twitter.com/MuslimIQ/status/873641452827537408

[Kadagar_AV]

That's still not even half an actual argument.
Where was the problem with them being overrepresented? Do you also think it's a problem when whites and men are overrepresented in corporate leadership roles and other powerful positions?

And are you saying the grudges are justified or that we should model society acoording to the lowest common denominator?

You have slept with married women according to yourself, should we just shrug if one of the husbands were to chop your head off? Because sleeping with married women causes grudges and that's just how people are, right? :shrug:

YOU are the German... Why should I explain the German hatred towards jews in the 1930's to you?

Isn't it better that I ask you instead?

Did Hitler just NillyWilly make some stuff up and got the population along with it, or what were the actual problems?

As a historian I know that jews at that time, in germany, more or less had monopoly on some public sectors, and they were seen as not assuredly having what is best for Germany at the top of their minds.




Kadagar has become rather inarticulate and has some... odd ideas about biology but he is not wrong in asserting that the methods of dealing with outsiders which western europe tends to revile have not been rendered in anyway impossible to resurrect and, without a significant reduction in backwardness of those denizens of the middle east ushered in, that taboo against of demographic removal is dying.

However as mentioned I do not agree with kadagar's belief it will happen in the vein of the swastika, it will be done in the style of the sickle, at worst a trail of tears.

May I just say I was really, like REALLY drunk at one post, but if you try to piece it together it kind of works out grammatically, even though it was quite a struggle for myself as well the day after :)

From where do you get that it it's my belief that it will be in the form of the Swastika?

Honestly, that is the highest odds I will put it at, in Sweden.

Sweden would do it in the name of "Folkhemmet", "Old Norse", or plenty of things before the Swastika.

Mass graves as mass graves, by my macro-definition though :(




see all the unemployed Nazi's spending their time :daisy:posting on the internet.

Now now, silly. Why on earth are you on sites where unemployed nazis spread their hatred?

But hey, Ican'tspell liked your post, so at least you share intellect:)


Once again I note that if Muslim immigrants are backward then it is in much the same way that the "Western" right is backward.

If Muslim citizens can be expelled, then so can right-wing ones.

Yeah... No...

See, one goes AGAINST society and science at large.

The other go WITH society and science at large.

Notice the difference?

IE.
White men rape - against the cultural norm.
African and Arabic men rape - within the cultural norm.

Notice the difference?



One so passionate about his convictions wouldn't have stopped at just making some information public. I guess he would try to see them implemented.

One giving examples of failed states of the past as a paragon for his projected state models should be aware of the results of such policies.

YES, THE PEOPLE NEED A STRONG LEADER!!!!!!!!!! Eh... No... that is not how democracy works, mate.

The Swedish people have actually been quite good at making decisions, when they are not lied to by the state and media.

So just by making things public information, I think i have done more in the name of democracy than if I would have gone all in.

Also, there are just so many budget meetings where you discuss a 4 or 5% difference for 7 hours you can take - before you really start wondering what the slopes look like.

As I said, I am more than proud of what I have done with my years in politics. The words "Rocket career" and "Sure got a lot done" has been tossed around.




On a related topic, here is a tweet which made me think of this thread:
https://twitter.com/MuslimIQ/status/873641452827537408

I specifically like how he showed all the muslim terrors over just 2 months :(

Islam, we seriously need a new D-day where the good forces of the world slam their fist against this horror of a religion.

[Kadagar_AV]

Seriously?

:inquisitive:

Yes seriously, still.

You won't get away, answer.


What has historically happened when Islam cross borders.

[Husar]

YOU are the German... Why should I explain the German hatred towards jews in the 1930's to you?

Isn't it better that I ask you instead?

Did Hitler just NillyWilly make some stuff up and got the population along with it, or what were the actual problems?

Yes, he did, thanks for asking.


As a historian I know that jews at that time, in germany, more or less had monopoly on some public sectors, and they were seen as not assuredly having what is best for Germany at the top of their minds.

And Allah is seen as being the one, true, real, existing God by more than a billion Muslims, so I suppose you believe in him, too?

[Sarmatian]

Woah.

He's still watching over the Backroom.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yes, he did, thanks for asking.



And Allah is seen as being the one, true, real, existing God by more than a billion Muslims, so I suppose you believe in him, too?


Thank you for your deep and sincerely thoughtful answer.

So there we have it folks, Hitler while being democratically elected had absolutely no standpoint.

Also, according to Husar I now respect religions... Is it because I respect Hitler and Dr. Mengele so much?




Wow Husar, this was a new low - from you.

[Fragony]

Since we arre in WW2 territory, this for real? https://www.morgenpost.de/vermischtes/article212391287/Anne-Frank-Wirbel-um-Namen-des-neuen-ICE-der-Bahn.html

It isn't 1 april yet but

[Hooahguy]

Did Hitler just NillyWilly make some stuff up and got the population along with it, or what were the actual problems?

As a historian I know that jews at that time, in germany, more or less had monopoly on some public sectors, and they were seen as not assuredly having what is best for Germany at the top of their minds.



It's like you are just regurgitating Nazi propaganda now.


Yes seriously, still.

You won't get away, answer.

What has historically happened when Islam cross borders.

Wow, someone is a bit offended that I didnt respond right away. :laugh4:

Anyways, my answer would be again: the same thing that historically happened when Christianity crossed borders. Or really any major religion for that matter. If you want to go biblical, the Israelites pretty much wiped out the locals in Canaan, or so the stories go.

You just keep missing my point in all of this.

[Gilrandir]

YES, THE PEOPLE NEED A STRONG LEADER!!!!!!!!!! Eh... No... that is not how democracy works, mate.


It is not about becoming a leader, it is about uniting with people who share your mind and trying to get your common ideas implemented in the form of laws. Is this democracy?

[Husar]

Thank you for your deep and sincerely thoughtful answer.

So there we have it folks, Hitler while being democratically elected had absolutely no standpoint.

Also, according to Husar I now respect religions... Is it because I respect Hitler and Dr. Mengele so much?

You're completely wrong and just deflecting because you're obviously unable to substantiate your argument.
I asked you to specify YOUR argument and you return by saying I should know YOUR argument better than you do.
The simple answer is from everything you said you're just parroting Nazi propaganda and are unable to back it up in any way.


Wow Husar, this was a new low - from you.

Says the guy who is arguing with hot air.

[Fragony]

Just because the nazi's saw it like that doesn't mean he's parotting nazi's, it was widely seen like that back then

[Husar]

Just because the nazi's saw it like that doesn't mean he's parotting nazi's, it was widely seen like that back then

Yes, and Allah is widely seen as the one true God, so when will you submit to him?

[Crandar]

Kadagar's Nazi apologia is a fallacy known as appeal to popular belief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum). Many Germans (but not the majority) being mentally retarded enough to buy Hitler's hysterics doesn't mean that said hysterics had any factual basis. Many Jews belonging to the elite doesn't mean that Jews should be blamed for income inequality.

I think that blaming the elite in general, regardless of religious feelings, would be more clever, but grasping such a complicated notion went beyond the Nazis cerebral capacities. Sad!
By the way, source that many Jews didn't have Germany's best interests (whatever these may be) at heart?

Secondly, why is immigration of mainly Muslims compared to Islamic expansion? You just get a trait of the new-comers and build a nice, little fallacy. It's like claiming that all these Swedes coming here to be burnt under the Mediterranean sun are identical to Viking invaders?

I mean, have you ever heard of Scandinavians exploring the world peacefully?!?! I sure haven't!!!
#OlafGoHome #MaketheAbbasidsGr8Again #ByzantiumOnly4Byzzies

Anyway, don't worry about multiculturalism, in the '90s, every Golden Dawn wannabe was crying about all these Albanians stealing and murdering innocent Greeks. Today, many of these Albanians have joined Golden Dawn's paramilitary groups hunting down Syrians.
In 2030, Syrians, Greek Nazis and Albanians will launch together pogroms against newly arrived Swedes escaping from the Caliphate of Stockholm.

[Gilrandir]

Anyway, don't worry about multiculturalism, in the '90s, every Golden Dawn wannabe was crying about all these Albanians stealing and murdering innocent Greeks. Today, many of these Albanians have joined Golden Dawn's paramilitary groups hunting down Syrians.
In 2030, Syrians, Greek Nazis and Albanians will launch together pogroms against newly arrived Swedes escaping from the Caliphate of Stockholm.

In Czech republic it is already a fait accompli:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-13/xenophobia-victim-poised-to-boost-czech-far-right-in-parliament

[Fragony]

Yes, and Allah is widely seen as the one true God, so when will you submit to him?

i guess that somehow made sense to you I just don't know how

[Husar]

i guess that somehow made sense to you I just don't know how

You and Kadagar were arguing that just because a lot of people believed something, it was somehow true or justified a tyranny of the majority. I said that would also apply to Islam, Crandar explained the fallacy in more detail.

[Montmorency]

Anyway, don't worry about multiculturalism, in the '90s, every Golden Dawn wannabe was crying about all these Albanians stealing and murdering innocent Greeks. Today, many of these Albanians have joined Golden Dawn's paramilitary groups hunting down Syrians.
In 2030, Syrians, Greek Nazis and Albanians will launch together pogroms against newly arrived Swedes escaping from the Caliphate of Stockholm.

There's actually a good point to make about the flexibility of white supremacy here.

Think once more of how "whiteness" has expanded over the years:

In the 1700's, the English were white and maybe some of the Scandinavians.
In the early 1800's, it was the Irish and Germans acting as though they were people.
By the late 1800's, you had the Italian scourge.
In the early 1900's, Poles and Greeks and Jews, oh my.
In the 1950s, do we really have to acknowledge all of the above? At least they're not Negroes...
These days, Hispanics and Asians are increasingly identifying and identified as white.

It shouldn't surprise us if in 2050 white nationalists come to call for a world crusade against Africa to cull the Black population and secure their resources for White consumption.

[CrossLOPER]

Studies have shown that the white race is actually one of the lowest in terms of IQ.

For evidence, see all the unemployed Nazi's spending their time :daisy:posting on the internet.

No no no, you degenerate, illiterate filthy liberal hippy. Can't you read? The word used in this thread was "retirement" due to "boredom". #notallnazis


Why Islam is a bigger problem than others?

Have you SEEN what has happened to the nations that accepts muslims?
They enter a golden age of Classical Greek and Roman literary, scientific and mathematical revival and unprecedented spread of such ideas across the Old World?

I would like to remind you that most "heroes" of the middle east are ancient academics while the classical white, European archetypes of a budding "modern" civilization are hairy white apes who carve scratches on rocks:

https://books.google.com/books?id=kyEsDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT42&lpg=PT42&dq=tolfink+stone&source=bl&ots=AFqIJsGNab&sig=hjQBhszU5qGQag2-XLm4_3OiUeY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLvu6fvpvXAhXLOiYKHVIEDPMQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q=tolfink%20stone&f=false

[John Smith]

Most dogs I know get on great by happily sniffing eachothers butts. Is the solution simply to get to know one another more intimately?

[Fragony]

You and Kadagar were arguing that just because a lot of people believed something, it was somehow true or justified a tyranny of the majority. I said that would also apply to Islam, Crandar explained the fallacy in more detail.

your mind goes to strange places

[Husar]

your mind goes to strange places

Are we just saying random things now or should I report that as a personal attack?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Are we just saying random things now or should I report that as a personal attack?

I myself would take it as a compliment. Road less traveled and all of that.

[Fragony]

Are we just saying random things now or should I report that as a personal attack?

lolwut, if you want to go ahead, don't know how I made one but alas

[Hooahguy]

I think we can all agree that no more good will come from this thread so I will close it.