Citizen Militia

[ICantSpellDawg]

I'm clearly a nut, bit I've always been interested in the idea of the citizen militia. The ability of able bodied men (and now women) to be able to outfit like a modern hoplite and join the phalanx still has an appeal. Every American who is not a violent felon or completely deranged should have basic tactical training, a mid-caliber carbine, a pistol, body armor and basic knowledge of weaponry.

For armor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq3o806iMmw&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
For carbine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjlxxPUQp4&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
For pistol (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddP7IHHnM4A&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
For training (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJPgEozoHUA&feature=youtube_gdata_player) or this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq9suWD811k&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Because why not. We can own it already, why not become proficient? I know this sounds like a dumb and/or dangerous idea, but let's not lie and say it is unappealing at least to us - this is a wargaming site. Either way, small arms training will never save the world, but if people are educated and relatively peaceful, I don't see it as being dangerous. Flame on and enjoy the links. No matter how much you might disagree, you will enjoy these links

[Kralizec]

I, too, admire the ancient Greek tradition of the citizen soldier. I strongly support the people's right to own an Apsis, a spear and other forms of pre-modern weaponry to wage war on neighbouring towns.

[ICantSpellDawg]

See? This guy is down with the struggle.

[rvg]

Do we get to sell our adversaries into slavery?

[ICantSpellDawg]

No, we would need to keep it peaceful and non-abrasive to the rights of others in order for it to work.

[Vuk]

I'm clearly a nut, bit I've always been interested in the idea of the citizen militia. The ability of able bodied men (and now women) to be able to outfit like a modern hoplite and join the phalanx still has an appeal. Every American who is not a violent felon or completely deranged should have basic tactical training, a mid-caliber carbine, a pistol, body armor and basic knowledge of weaponry.

For armor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq3o806iMmw&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
For carbine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZjlxxPUQp4&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
For pistol (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddP7IHHnM4A&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
For training (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJPgEozoHUA&feature=youtube_gdata_player) or this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq9suWD811k&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Because why not. We can own it already, why not become proficient? I know this sounds like a dumb and/or dangerous idea, but let's not lie and say it is unappealing at least to us - this is a wargaming site. Either way, small arms training will never save the world, but if people are educated and relatively peaceful, I don't see it as being dangerous. Flame on and enjoy the links. No matter how much you might disagree, you will enjoy these links

Sorry mate, but Glocks are crap. Get a Huldra and a Kimber .45.

[Montmorency]

Why not just play paintball, then?

[HoreTore]

Breivik would approve of this idea.



Join the armed forces instead, like sane people do.

[Vuk]

Breivik would approve of this idea.



Join the armed forces instead, like sane people do.

Because making sure that you are trained to use the weapons you own so that you are not a danger to yourself and to others is the same as going on mass shootings of innocent civilians? Ahhh...European logic. ~;)

[ICantSpellDawg]

Hitler would approve of vegetarianism
John Wayne Gacy would approve of clowning
Walrus would approve of lying about in freezing cold water.

I'm talking about lawful activity. What he did was evil and unlawful. The mere fact that he might approve is irrelevant.

Ironically, as I've become more gun obsessed, I've also become more left leaning on many issues; ie soft on crime, more interested in other civil liberties, etc. It is possible that Lemur may attest to this

[Papewaio]

Any tool you use you should learn to use properly.

A poorly maintained axe is more likely to chop flesh than timber.

=][=

Thing is if there was another revolution it would be the hackers and console players who would rule. Because bringing a pistol to a drone fight is a recipe for mince meat not glory.

[HoreTore]

Hitler would approve of vegetarianism

If you haven't thrown Hitler in the face of a vegetarian, you haven't lived man.

[rvg]

If you haven't thrown Hitler in the face of a vegetarian, you haven't lived man.

It feels right. :laugh4:

[Kadagar_AV]

In Switzerland, pretty much every man has an assault rifle at home.

They also actually care about the democratic process.

Just throwing that in here (mind you, in USA where the majority are negroes, under class mexican or white trash, the idea of everyone having assault rifles is of course mind boggling!).

[Vuk]

In Switzerland, pretty much every man has an assault rifle at home.

They also actually care about the democratic process.

Just throwing that in here (mind you, in USA where the majority are negroes, under class mexican or white trash, the idea of everyone having assault rifles is of course mind boggling!).

Yes, because heaven knows that black people can't be trusted with weapons. :rolleyes: Those savages...:dizzy2:

[Lemur]

in USA where the majority are negroes, under class mexican or white trash
Well, you limited yourself by saying "Mexican" instead of hispanic, but you also left yourself a gigantic fudge by including "white trash." I guess your assertion makes sense if we classify, say, ~40% of white people as trash. Which seems excessive. (And yes, I know the pie chart below doesn't differentiate between hispanic-white and white-white. So sue me. I can't be bothered to go past the first page of Google results. Here, look it up for yourself (http://www.census.gov/).)

https://i.imgur.com/olLYH3h.png

[rvg]

...So sue me. I can't be bothered to go past the first page of Google results. Here, ...

Why bother casting pearls before the swine?

[Kadagar_AV]

Lemur, I think I am saying that USA has issues Switzerland don't.

Both countries are doing well on paper, both have liberal gun laws. But the statistics for the result of having said weapons are EXTREMELY different.

They have no term for "white trash" in Switzerland, just like we didn't know the term in Sweden before we started with mass immigration.

Coincidence, maybe. Or maybe accepting people from ****** up cultures will have a negative impact on your culture?

I guess the jury is still out on that one (but Switzerland don't take any chances, and seem to do OK).

[Rhyfelwyr]

Remember, fostering citizen militias is a different issue from gun laws. I guess you could say that citizen militias might foster a sense of civic duty and responsibility/discipline around weapons. And give guys an outlet for their militaristic tendencies.

On the other hand, I don't think the social situation in the USA is right for them. Too much poverty, too much disengagement from politics and civil society, too much racial division. I don't think it would take long before they got into racketeering, community violence (imagine white/black only militias), and such ills.

[Fisherking]

There is a responsible agent in each county for citizen militias. It is the sheriff. Such militia would have to be cleared by and responsible to the County Sheriff.

[Lemur]

both [USA and Switzerland] have liberal gun laws.
Um, no? Very, very different gun laws. Switzerland has a level of organization and centralized authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland) that the USA would never tolerate. Heck, getting a gun license in Swissitania means taking tests and demonstrating competence. I can only imagine the exploding heads were such a law passed in 'Murica.

The Swiss army has long been a militia trained and structured to rapidly respond against foreign aggression. Swiss males grow up expecting to undergo basic military training, usually at age 20 in the Rekrutenschule (recruit school), the basic-training camp, after which Swiss men remain part of the "militia" in reserve capacity until age 30 (age 34 for officers).

Each soldier is required to keep his army-issued personal weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG-Sauer P226 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel) at home or (as of 2010) in the local armoury (Zeughaus).

[Strike For The South]

My Grandfather also believes the Negroes are the cause of Americas ills

[ICantSpellDawg]

My Grandfather also believes the Negroes are the cause of Americas ills

Slavery is the cause of most of America's ills. Part of that is being saddled with a largely hostile population of people who are very different from all other global populations with a much deserved chip on their collective shoulders as a result of what western society had done to them. It is not far from the mark, what your grandfather says, but the sentiment in which it is delivered perpetuates the difficulty.

It also makes our country unique and helps us deal with the multi-kulti problem once and for all. We have a vested interest in it, and the African continent is doing well these days. It helps us know that people are just people - that individually we all have value not dictated by race. Culture, however, decides whether those differences can shine or cause a death spiral into pre-civilized hyperviolence, ignorance and disease.

The weight around our cultural neck may be personified by a certain subculture, but it is self imposed historically by years of inhuman cruelty that needs to be finally erased.

[Fragony]

It's because of the Chinese that Africa is doing well

[ICantSpellDawg]

It's because of the Chinese that Africa is doing well

Sure. Let the Chinese build the infrastructure, we can provide medical assistance and the internet can do the rest.

Back on track. Do not try this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ7BpaVvJhU&feature=youtube_gdata_player) at home. I can see someone trying it and immediately severing their femoral artery. But LOOK at the target size from the perspective of the opponent. Unreal. It's like there are 2 tiny people firing at you.

Pretty much all I do these days is watch YouTube.

[Papewaio]

If you're hiding behind a wheel, you're hiding behind a car and wouldn't have much of a field of view either. Unless you were hiding behind a monster pick up truck... which would fit the demographic.

[Fragony]

Sure. Let the Chinese build the infrastructure, we can provide medical assistance and the internet can do the rest.

Back on track. Do not try this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQ7BpaVvJhU&feature=youtube_gdata_player) at home. I can see someone trying it and immediately severing their femoral artery. But LOOK at the target size from the perspective of the opponent. Unreal. It's like there are 2 tiny people firing at you.

Pretty much all I do these days is watch YouTube.

Here is a good one. Bows are awesome.

Edit, forgot link http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcNY2t0h-HE

[HoreTore]

In Switzerland, pretty much every man has an assault rifle at home.

This is hardly something you can relate to US gun ownership.

I also have an assault rifle in my closet, but I don't really see any connection between my gun and the US.

[Vuk]

This is hardly something you can relate to US gun ownership.

I also have an assault rifle in my closet, but I don't really see any connection between my gun and the US.

So everyone but Americans should be able to own assault rifles?

[HoreTore]

So everyone but Americans should be able to own assault rifles?

I have no problems with the law requiring me to have an assault rifle in my house, and wouldn't have a problem with any other country adopting the same.

It's miles and miles away from the US gun laws, which is what I oppose.

[Fragony]

I have no problems with the law requiring me to have an assault rifle in my house, and wouldn't have a problem with any other country adopting the same.

It's miles and miles away from the US gun laws, which is what I oppose.

What's the difference then

[HoreTore]

What's the difference then

Switzerland is thrown round so often, yet none of you have bothered to actually investigate it? Very well:

I'm a conscript, and my gun is my service weapon. It's not my private gun - it's government property and is to be used solely for military action.

[spankythehippo]

Guns are for pussies. A simple punch in the face will solve all the worlds problems.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Of course it will.

Yes, Switzerland is much more strict than the US, but in different ways. Few Swiss still own assault weapons as some areas have moved to a central armory arrangement. Fortunately, In the US we value the rights of individuals more highly in some areas and the State is not the only thing worth protecting.

[HoreTore]

Of course it will.

Yes, Switzerland is much more strict than the US, but in different ways. Few Swiss still own assault weapons as some areas have moved to a central armory arrangement. Fortunately, In the US we value the rights of individuals more highly in some areas and the State is not the only thing worth protecting.

I'll bet my left arm that's a temporary arrangement.

Taking weapons out of storage takes a bloody long time.

[Fragony]

Switzerland is thrown round so often, yet none of you have bothered to actually investigate it? Very well:

I'm a conscript, and my gun is my service weapon. It's not my private gun - it's government property and is to be used solely for military action.

It's still there. Are you allowed to shoot a few cans? It would be hard for me to resist.

Exhibit A: https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/image_zpsdaafe936.jpg

This is what happens if you give me a bow (yes that is after a few drinks)

[HoreTore]

It's still there. Are you allowed to shoot a few cans? It would be hard for me to resist.

This is the army. You're not allowed to wipe your bum without being ordered to, you think they allo you to fire your weapon as you want...?

And anyway, it is of course kept without the firing pin(or whatever it's called in english, that little pin with the spring in the end piece which hits the casing to fire the round), so it can't be fired.

[Fragony]

This is the army. You're not allowed to wipe your bum without being ordered to, you think they allo you to fire your weapon as you want...?

And anyway, it is of course kept without the firing pin(or whatever it's called in english, that little pin with the spring in the end piece which hits the casing to fire the round), so it can't be fired.

I assume you have everything to assemble it? I have never been in the military so shooting an assault-rifle is the hight of awesome, never shooted one. Can I have it, I'll promise I will thank you every post

[a completely inoffensive name]

Well, you limited yourself by saying "Mexican" instead of hispanic, but you also left yourself a gigantic fudge by including "white trash." I guess your assertion makes sense if we classify, say, ~40% of white people as trash. Which seems excessive. (And yes, I know the pie chart below doesn't differentiate between hispanic-white and white-white. So sue me. I can't be bothered to go past the first page of Google results. Here, look it up for yourself (http://www.census.gov/).)


Not going to nit pick, but those percentages have changed a fair amount over the past 13 years. If you are going to cite sources about demographics, best to go 2010 census or nothing.

[HoreTore]

I assume you have everything to assemble it?

No, the army keeps the pin, which is then given out when required. As the pin is universal and without a serial number, that means it can be given out very quickly(unlike taking the whole end piece, for example).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think the OP is based on a fundamental miss-apprehension of what the Hoplite was.

The "Citizen militia" conscripted all able-bodied males able to outfit themselves, it mandated a minimum level of service and training a year, usually both personal and as a unit.

It was therefore both profoundly middle-class and State controlled.

[Montmorency]

it mandated a minimum level of service and training a year, usually both personal and as a unit.


For example, the hoplite was an untrained amateur fighting a decisive battle during a break in the
agricultural schedule. He cost his society little. The professional soldiers of Sparta were paid for by the exploitation – and consequent rebelliousness – of a much larger population of serf-like helots.


The training and practice Greek soldiers received could vary from almost none for an archaic hoplite, to the two years required of every young citizen male in late fourth-century Athens, to a few months per year for a good oarsman, to full-time service for many years for mercenaries and the members of elite, professional citizen units.[...] In the archaic period, when busy farmers took a couple of weeks during the break in their agricultural schedule to invade or ward off their neighbours, they had neither the time nor inclination for serious training. [...] Increased military competition between cities in the classical period led to more slippage from the ideal of the hoplite amateur. In the late fifth and fourth century, the hoplomachoi, teachers of hoplite fighting, found paying pupils despite the reactionary scorn and derision reflected in some sources. The elite units of the classical period also trained full-time to fight as hoplites.


Later Athens formalized the ephebeia, a two-year period of military training in hoplite and light-armed fighting and garrison duty eventually required of all eighteen-to nineteen-year-old citizens. Nevertheless, hoplites remained the least professional class of soldiers.

So if you really want to imitate the old Hoplites, just know that it's

fun to

stay in the

Y

M

C

A-HAY!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I didn't say a lot of training - and I'm assuming DAWG's interested in emulating Athenian or Theban Hoplites, rather than those of the minor cities.

My point stands - the Hoplites were middle-class conscripts, and America has decided conscription is incompatible with it's values.

[rvg]

I didn't say a lot of training - and I'm assuming DAWG's interested in emulating Athenian or Theban Hoplites, rather than those of the minor cities.

My point stands - the Hoplites were middle-class conscripts, and America has decided conscription is incompatible with it's values.

I wouldn't call them conscripts, they were landed rural volunteers who could afford their own weapons and armor.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I wouldn't call them conscripts, they were landed rural volunteers who could afford their own weapons and armor.

There was nothing "voluntary" about it. It was either proscribed duty on which citizenship depended (in the democracies) or it was demanded by the monarch/tyrant/oligarchs.

[rvg]

There was nothing "voluntary" about it. It was either proscribed duty on which citizenship depended (in the democracies) or it was demanded by the monarch/tyrant/oligarchs.

Athens had no standing army. The hoplites were called into service only for defensive purposes. For any sort of offensive engagements they were paid (standard rate was 1 drachma per day), i.e. they were mercenaries.

[Fragony]

There was nothing "voluntary" about it. It was either proscribed duty on which citizenship depended (in the democracies) or it was demanded by the monarch/tyrant/oligarchs.

Yes it was voluntary, you had to be quite well-off to be able to afford the armour and weapons. When called upon you had to go of course but service wasn't mandatory

[rvg]

Its not like they viewed going off to war in the same way we do. They weren't headed for the trenches, they were headed for a relatively bloodless battlefield with very pre-determined and predictable outcomes in city state vs. city state situaitons, and probably would not have felt too oppressed about the whole thing.

Exactly. Pick a field, form a phalanx and push, push, push. 15% casualty rate would be on the high side, normally it was less.

[HoreTore]

Yes it was voluntary, you had to be quite well-off to be able to afford the armour and weapons. When called upon you had to go of course but service wasn't mandatory

You need quotation marks on the word "voluntary".

If you weren't a hoplite, you had no say in society(assuming you weren't a member of any of the higher classes), so your choice was between being basically a serf and a hoplite. I can't remember the specifics about the navy crews(which for athens was much, much larger than the ground force) though.

This varied heavily between the cities though. There was definitely nothing volountary about being a Spartan, for example.

[Fragony]

You need quotation marks on the word "voluntary".

If you weren't a hoplite, you had no say in society(assuming you weren't a member of any of the higher classes), so your choice was between being basically a serf and a hoplite. I can't remember the specifics about the navy crews(which for athens was much, much larger than the ground force) though.

This varied heavily between the cities though. There was definitely nothing volountary about being a Spartan, for example.

Not absolutily sure but only citizens could become a hoplite in most of the polis at least, serfs were basicly slaves, and being a hoplite had prestige attached that was only granted to citizens. As for Sparta, there is preciously little known of what Spartan society was like, they were really inward and everything that is known about them is what was told about them, I wouldn't go on anything told about Sparta as nobody really knows.

[rvg]

This varied heavily between the cities though. There was definitely nothing volountary about being a Spartan, for example.
Sparta was unlike any other city though. Spartiates had no duties other than training, overseeing the work on their farm and killing helots during the helot-hunting season.

[Fragony]

Sparta was unlike any other city though. Spartiates had no duties other than training, overseeing the work on their farm and killing helots during the helot-hunting season.

So they say, but it are all secundairy sources. If you think of it isn't what is said about them kinda outlandish. I would at least start with scrapping what is probably bull.

[rvg]

So they say, but it are all secundairy sources. If you think of it isn't what is said about them kinda outlandish. I would at least start with scrapping what is probably bull.

What do you consider to be incorrect?

[Fragony]

What do you consider to be incorrect?

There is no evidence of these aspects in Spartan society, maybe Countarach can fill in he's the expert. As far as I know at least there is nothing but hearsay from other Polis.

[rvg]

There is no evidence of these aspects in Spartan society, maybe Countarach can fill in he's the expert. As far as I know at least there is nothing but hearsay from other Polis.

When you say "these aspects" which aspects do you have in mind?

[Fragony]

When you say "these aspects" which aspects do you have in mind?

Just about all legends about th Spartans, throwing unhealhty kids to death, a year of survival, that sort of stuff.

[rvg]

Just about all legends about th Spartans, throwing unhealhty kids to death, that sort of stuff.

Gerousia only authorized disposing of babies with visible severe physical defects. They weren't thrown to their deaths, just left in the countryside to die, but they did die.

[Fragony]

Gerousia only authorized disposing of babies with visible severe physical defects. They weren't thrown to their deaths, just left in the countryside to die, but they did die.

I am not an expert and I can be horribly wrong, it can have happened of course but was it a custom? There is really little known but I expect it to be a Polis like there were so many. And I have absolutily nothing to back that up.

[rvg]

I am not an expert and I can be horribly wrong, it can have happened of course but was it a custom?
More like custom-turned-law. I"m not sure if it was sanctioned by Lycurgus himself, but it made a lot of sense given the structure of the Spartan society.


There is really little known but I expect it to be a Polis like there were so many. And I have absolutily nothing to back that up.
That's the thing, Sparta was unique. Nobody else did things that way.

[Fragony]

It is said that they did it that way, only in Athens.

CA report here right now

[rvg]

Athens? Never heard of that being done in Athens.

[Fragony]

Athens? Never heard of that being done in Athens.

It didn't as far as I know, but that is where al stories about Sparta are from

[Vuk]

Personally, I don't think it matters if anyone in history has had militias like what the OP was talking about. We are unique, and that is a good thing. We shouldn't base our decisions on whether lesser nations have done it in the past. America is more powerful and has achieved more than any nation in history, and it has not been through strictly imitating others. It is because we take what is good from other, leave the rest, and add our own.

[rvg]

Personally, I don't think it matters if anyone in history has had militias like what the OP was talking about. We are unique, and that is a good thing. We shouldn't base our decisions on whether lesser nations have done it in the past. America is more powerful and has achieved more than any nation in history, and it has not been through strictly imitating others. It is because we take what is good from other, leave the rest, and add our own.

The Founding Fathers admired the Spartan model a lot and adopted many of its principles.

[Fragony]

The Founding Fathers admired the Spartan model a lot and adopted many of its principles.

Doesn't go any further than having a standing army really, which was normal by then.

[rvg]

Doesn't go any further than having a standing army really, which was normal by then.

Sparta was AFAIK the world's first representative democracy. Spartan Gerousia was used as a model for Congress.

[Fragony]

Sparta was AFAIK the world's first representative democracy. Spartan Gerousia was used as a model for Congress.

I think Athens was, Sparta was ruled by kings/cityholders. Again, I am not sure. Don't hurt me. CA get that ozzy butt here.

[rvg]

I think Athens was, Sparta was ruled by kings/cityholders. Again, I am not sure. Don't hurt me. CA get that ozzy butt here.

Athens was a direct democracy.

As for Spartan kings, they were mostly military leaders. Both kings were automatically included in the Gerousia, but did not have any special powers in it: each king had one vote, and they were just two out of thirty.

[Vuk]

Like I said, we take what is useful from other cultures, but we never have and never should be afraid to go forward because of lack of a precedent.

[rvg]

Like I said, we take what is useful from other cultures, but we never have and never should be afraid to go forward because of lack of a precedent.

That is very true, and a very good method of describing the American way.

[Fragony]

Athens was a direct democracy.

As for Spartan kings, they were mostly military leaders. Both kings were automatically included in the Gerousia, but did not have any special powers in it: each king had one vote, and they were just two out of thirty.

I'll look it up that's new to me, beats the Romans

[Montmorency]

AFAIK Athens was a representative democracy (or even little more than an oligarchy) from Solon and Cleisthenes until Cimon's naval exploits gave rowers and sailors the influence to demand political clout through direct representation in the 470s-460s - or something like that.

[Fragony]

AFAIK Athens was a representative democracy (or even little more than an oligarchy) from Solon and Cleisthenes until Cimon's naval exploits gave rowers and sailors the influence to demand political clout through direct representation in the 470s-460s - or something like that.

I thought I was crazy, Solon it is

[Kralizec]

You need quotation marks on the word "voluntary".

If you weren't a hoplite, you had no say in society(assuming you weren't a member of any of the higher classes), so your choice was between being basically a serf and a hoplite. I can't remember the specifics about the navy crews(which for athens was much, much larger than the ground force) though.

This varied heavily between the cities though. There was definitely nothing volountary about being a Spartan, for example.

The free men who were too poor to fight as infantry were used as rowers. In fact; every free man was expected to contribute to the military somehow. Even residents who had no citizenship and thus could not vote.
If you were extremely rich, you'd be expected to finance one or more triremes for the navy and either lead it yourself or hire a captain. I have no idea wether any of this was "mandatory" in the legal sense, though I expect a lot of it was.

[Montmorency]

Even residents who had no citizenship and thus could not vote. If you were extremely rich, you'd be expected to finance one or more triremes for the navy and either lead it yourself or hire a captain. I have no idea wether any of this was "mandatory" in the legal sense, though I expect a lot of it was.

Yes, the liturgy (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0063:id=leiturgia-cn) of the trierarchia.

[rvg]

The free men who were too poor to fight as infantry were used as rowers.

Paid rowers. A huge distinction imho.

[Fragony]

Looks like I spoke when I should have shut up looks mandatory indeed, might be confused as there was no universal law.

Yes that is a mea culpa.

[Fragony]

What is the trierarchy in Greek context?

Ohffs that's tetrarchy soz

[rvg]

What is the trierarchy in Greek context?

In the Athenian context it meant that the richest of the rich had to furnish and command the triremes in wartime. They had to provide everything: pay for the construction, hire the marines, rowers, skippers, arrange for the food and water etc. Since the trierarch usually served as the ship's captain, it was in his best interests to staff it with qualified people.

Incidentally, the trireme was one place where the richest of the rich rubbed shoulders with the poorest of the poor.

[Fragony]

Interesting read, I know also knw what confused me this was rather specific for Athens. I just got less stupid.

[Papewaio]

A self determined militia is not a conscripted army.

Wrong to conflate them.

HoreTore doesn't own the assault rifle, he maintains and trains with it. The state owns it. He is a conscript.

Owning an assault rifle for personal use does have a few interesting issues. Is it a tool, a toy or a fashion accessory?

[Vuk]

A self determined militia is not a conscripted army.

Wrong to conflate them.

HoreTore doesn't own the assault rifle, he maintains and trains with it. The state owns it. He is a conscript.

Owning an assault rifle for personal use does have a few interesting issues. Is it a tool, a toy or a fashion accessory?

All of the above?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Athens had no standing army. The hoplites were called into service only for defensive purposes. For any sort of offensive engagements they were paid (standard rate was 1 drachma per day), i.e. they were mercenaries.

You were a Hoplite, or you were not a Citizen.

Shockingly - HoreTore is correct here.


You need quotation marks on the word "voluntary".

If you weren't a hoplite, you had no say in society(assuming you weren't a member of any of the higher classes), so your choice was between being basically a serf and a hoplite. I can't remember the specifics about the navy crews(which for athens was much, much larger than the ground force) though.

This varied heavily between the cities though. There was definitely nothing volountary about being a Spartan, for example.


Gerousia only authorized disposing of babies with visible severe physical defects. They weren't thrown to their deaths, just left in the countryside to die, but they did die.

They were chucked off Mount Taygetus, archaeologists found all the bones at the bottom of the gorge.

The throwing bit was what made Sparta unusual. Exposure of deformed babies was common practice in most of the world until around the High Middle Ages.

Sparta sucked - unless you were a Spartan, and fit in with the other Spartans. Sparta was essentially a one-party state in terms of how its politics worked.

[rvg]

You were a Hoplite, or you were not a Citizen.
This is factually false.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is factually false.

In the Archaic period you are referencing, it is.

All Spartiates were Hoplites - only Spartiates were Citizens. Athens was peculiar after the reforms of Solon, not typical, that's why Solon is one of the figures used to represent democracy in the US. Typically, full Citizienship required a certain holding, which was the same as the minimum required to be a Hoplite.

It doesn't really matter though, because Hoplites were still Conscripted, they were in no way volunteers. Unless you consider the draft for Vietnam and Korea voluntary.

[Montmorency]

Seems to me like more of a normative conscription, than a legal one.

Men went to war because they would have been ashamed not to, not AFAIK because there was a statute written in stone obligating service (in the Archaic period).

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Seems to me like more of a normative conscription, than a legal one.

Men went to war because they would have been ashamed not to, not AFAIK because there was a statute written in stone obligating service (in the Archaic period).

True - but participation in the Polity would have demanded physical defense of the Polis. Failure to do so would have effectively excluded the individual from participation in decision making. Archaic states that defined the relationship between citizen and city DID mandate a level of service - cities like Sparta and Rome, for example.

[rvg]

In the Archaic period you are referencing, it is.

All Spartiates were Hoplites - only Spartiates were Citizens. Athens was peculiar after the reforms of Solon, not typical, that's why Solon is one of the figures used to represent democracy in the US. Typically, full Citizienship required a certain holding, which was the same as the minimum required to be a Hoplite.

It doesn't really matter though, because Hoplites were still Conscripted, they were in no way volunteers. Unless you consider the draft for Vietnam and Korea voluntary.

I was talking about Athens, not Sparta.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I was talking about Athens, not Sparta.

I thought you were talking about Greece in general.

[rvg]

I thought you were talking about Greece in general.

No, I find it impossible to generalize about ancient Greece. Athens and Sparta are like apples and oranges with other cities falling somewhere in between. They were all Greeks, that's about as far as I'm willing to go in terms of generalizations.

[Papewaio]

I'm confused, its all Greek to me.