View Full Version : Heavy Cavalry VS Warrior Monk Test
There has been serious doubts on which is the actual best unit, Warrior Monks or Heavy Cavalry.
They have all their pros and cons but who would win if they meet head to head on flat land?
This the question I tried to answer in my test!
I played 4 test games with units on the standard 4-men deep rows, fine day, frontal attacks on green (which is totally flat)
The Test
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Game 1: Warrior Monk (def) vs Heavy Cavalry (att)
Winner: Warrior Monk
Game 2: Heavy Cavalry (def) vs Warrior Monk (att)
Winner: Heavy Cavalry
Game 3: Warrior Monk (def) vs Heavy Cavalry (att)
Winner: Warrior Monk
Game 4: Heavy Cavalry (def) vs Warrior Monk (att)
Winner: Heavy Cavalry
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This test actually showed that when confronted head to head against each other, these two units are extremely balanced and utterly slight advantages for a particular side would tip the balance.
Remember that test judged only when HC and WM meet head to head on flat land and other factors such as angle of attack and relief of land are not taken into consideration.
Tera
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shingenmitch2
07-16-2001, 00:34
Terazawa
Good stuff Tera!
But it really shows that they are unequal -- not in combat, but in cost. That was a 500koku unit trading even w/an 600 koku unit.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif What's worse is that 600 koku unit can be beat by a 200koku YS whereas the monk won't.
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I think it's just too bad that the HC isn't a true Anit-monk. That would help the game balance more.
[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 07-16-2001).]
Ah, but it's not just about pitching one unit against one unit and seeing who wins. The units have different strengths and weaknesses depending on who they go up against - you'd be foolhardy to run HC units into a bank of spearmen, but monks would make mincemeat out of them. Likewise, Archers fail to do serious damage to ranks of cavalry, but they can decimate the armourless monks.
I'm sure you know all this, but unit types really do work best in tandem with each other. Trying to pair off a unit against an enemy unit and seeing who wins in a straight fight is just asking for trouble.
Target is right, yes, units are best when combined together and versus their natural prey.
(ps. archers kill cavalry quickly too)
But as I said this was just to test which is the best, the monk or the heavy cavalry, when met head to head against each other.
Of course in battle this will be rare but I made this just for the sake of more tactical knowledge. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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In the single player campaign, a 60 man unit of monks cost 500 koku, and a unit of Heavy Cav cost 450 koku. In the online game the cost of HC has been increased to 600 koku. The cost of the other cav types was also increased. This is what is throwing off the cavalry/infantry balance in the online game.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
MagyarKhans Cham
07-16-2001, 07:05
you ever see monks running almost as fast as cav trapping cav on a finite map?
ofcourse they all have their weaknesses and strengths but undoubtly monks are the most strongest units, best value for money honey.
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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-mongol/mongol-images/mongolsmiley.gif Quote Although the enemy moves fast, a mongol arrow will kill him at last[/QUOTE]
Just a quick note. The HC only cost 450 koku if you are Takeda. For the rest of them it costs 600 koku per unit (60 man units).
Koga No Goshi
07-16-2001, 07:46
I also reproduced this test on Green. Here are my results.
Battle 1 - Monk victory
Monks left: 13 HC Left: 18
Battle 2 - HC victory
Monks left: 6 HC Left: 7
Battle 3 - Monk victory
Monks left: 17 HC Left: 5
Battle 4 - HC victory
Monks left: 21 HC Left: 35
Battle 5 - HC victory
Monks left: 14 HC Left: 27
Battle 6 - Monk victory
Monks left: 29 HC Left: 9
Battle 7 - Monk victory
Monks left: 19 HC Left: 6
Battle 8 - HC victory
Monks left: 10 HC Left: 8
Hmmmm.... close, edge to the monks, and since they're cheaper, I feel more validated now in saying HC are not worth their price. (Or monks are worth too much for their price, one of the two). Figure in MP with the extra money an enemy would have from buying a monk to match off against your HC, they could afford a yari ashigaru or arquebusier extra... so it's just not worth it.
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Koga no Goshi
"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.
Koga No Goshi
07-16-2001, 07:51
Pro's/Con's
Against guns: HC weak Monks weak
In woods: HC weak Monks strong
On hill terrain: HC weak Monks strong
Against yari: HC weak Monks strong
Against archers: HC strong Monks good
Speed: HC Decent, gets knotted up a lot, monks good
In snow/rain: HC tire easy Monks tire moderately
So....
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Koga no Goshi
"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.
Koga No Goshi
07-16-2001, 07:52
ack when I said against archers, I meant in H2H http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Both HC and monks are quite vulnerable to all missle fire.
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Koga no Goshi
"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.
shingenmitch2
07-16-2001, 08:45
Ah, Koga you are exactly right!
That's really interesting!
However, I would still put HC before WM as a shock troop. They are much faster http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif - and speed is often the crucial factor in battle. An on-time flank of ashigaru is much more valuable than its training cost.
But of course monks are a much better choice as the mainstay of the army. A rush of HC can be stopped by YS quite easily http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by Maltz (edited 07-16-2001).]
Heavy Cavalry
Attack Factor +2
Defence Factor +6
Armour +5
Warrior Monks
Attack Factor +5
Defence Factor +2
Armour +1
This means that a straight fight with WM on the defence should be completely even, however, WM have morale bonus of +8 compared to HC of +4, so the HC will usually rout first. HC gain a +1 advantage when on defence. Its seems from these stats that HC are overpriced, especially since they are no good in forests and lacking effect on hilly terrain. However, HC gain +12(!) charging into flank or rear but -4 when atacking yari troops.
CeltiberoSkullXIII
07-16-2001, 17:52
Monks are good but not to defend!
Hc is good to defend ... to lower prices is better to take YC !... make a test YC and WM... YC ROCKS!
http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/otn/evil/skullblink.gif
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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif
There should be a bigger difference if you have one or both units in loose formation instead of 4 deep. Tera or Koga ?
Also the H/C have trouble against the faster Y/C when they clash, I think the H/C are poor value,YC are good value while W/M are excellent value.
Maltz. I prefer W/M to H/C for shock troop attack on most maps.
To a connosseur of death, the heavy cavalry is more appealing than the loin-clothed holy men. But those bare monks do have fervor, which means that when you face them in battle, you must make sure you cut off their head, for a mere mortal wound will allow them to continue their struggle against the pagans for a little while longer...
Kiwi,
Thanks for pointing that out. I always played Takeda in the single player campaign, and had forgotten about the bonus they get for cavalry.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
If clashed together on flat land a battle HC vs WM would be very balanced.
But if we look at value for money HC are absolutely not worth the 600 koku paid for in multi-player.
Heavy Cavs get decimated by missiles.
Heavy Cavs get decimated by a 100k/200k YA, YS
Heavy Cavs slower than YC.
Heavy Cavs are crap in forests.
And some others I think.
If I would re-price them I would give them no more than 450 koku.
Tera
Next test? YC VS HC
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Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
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shingenmitch2
07-17-2001, 19:25
Tera --
You are exactly correct!
The modification, I'd like to see is, reduce their cost and give them a +6 vs. monks similar to the way there are bonuses for Yari armed troops vs. Cav. If the HC could slaughter monks, then people would be apt to buy 1 or 2. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
CeltiberoSkullXIII
07-17-2001, 20:48
i think is a fair price for such a unit!
Skull http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/otn/evil/skullblink.gif
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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif
Mitch, I think so too but I don't believe that the developers will care much now http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
These things should have been reported before the release of the game by the testers.
I sincerely hope that the new Mongol units will be balanced even if I read by reviews that the Kensai costs too much for its actual power in a battle...
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Honour to Clan No Fear.
Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
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shingenmitch2
07-17-2001, 23:51
Ahh the Kensai ---
Glad to hear it is a weak, overpriced unit. The whole concept of a Kensai to me sounds stupid anyway.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I might use kensai for one thing.
He could make a good bodyguard for the daimyo since we have to live with tactical ninja also. (cough)
Kraellin
07-18-2001, 01:53
the kensai and ninja dont worry me. i think they'll be more of a novelty item or specialty item than anything else.
i wouldnt mind seeing monks toned down just a touch and heavy cav, rather than lowered in cost, be raised in ability? i mean, good lord, i'm an armored unit on an armored horse and i cant just trample my enemy to death? where's the trampling? heavy horse were a dispersing type unit, heavy shock value and not just on flanking, though that is where they were best, but a charge of heavy cav would bust up almost any front line and you just dont see that in this game. about the only thing that would stop it was heavy spears or heavy gunfire...monks stopping heavy cav? sheer nonsense. you run a heavy horse at a monk and that monk is gonna run for cover unless his honor and skill is extraordinarily high.
i really would like to see trampling instituted, especially with the mongols coming. it was quite a valid tactic, just run the suckers over. i'd also like to see 'war horses' instituted. these horses would be much less gun shy and would actually be used as weapons, not just transport. a good war horse was highly prized by its owner. a good war horse could kick, bash, stomp, block, trample and so on and was much less susceptible to running at the first bruise or pop of a gun.
K.
K
The Monguls use to have their heavy cavalary smash open the front line, then their very fast light cavalary would rush in and cause havoc. Note that the light cavalary were only issued with 60 arrows but their composite bows were very powerful and the arrows were fired at tremendous velocity. The bows were made from bamboo and the horn of a yak.
MagyarKhans Cham
07-18-2001, 12:45
since when is my pony a warhorse?
::tapping on neck of little and cute but very fast and agile steppe pony::
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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-mongol/mongol-images/mongolsmiley.gif Quote Although the enemy moves fast, a mongol arrow will kill him at last[/QUOTE]
Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
since when is my pony a warhorse?
::tapping on neck of little and cute but very fast and agile steppe pony::
[/QUOTE]
well for example in The Tulughma tactic of the Mongolians they are described as the "heavy brigade" or heavy cavalary and light cavalary.The heavies broke through and also protected the light cavalary who were directly behind them.
CeltiberoSkullXIII
07-18-2001, 15:17
SO, MOngol CAV will be then STRONGER AS JAPANESE?... maybe is a good time to know it... because NAGINATA CAV will be the only chance against them, but NC will be slower as HC, that will be a problem; maybe MAghyar Khan can tell us if Mongol Cav was very fast, slow or moderated?...
Think about it!
Skull
http://www.mpz.co.uk/cwm/otn/evil/skullblink.gif
"Shinobi Ninja - Clan Celtiberos"
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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif
[This message has been edited by CeltiberoSkullXIII (edited 07-18-2001).]
I agree CeltiberoSkullXIII the mongols will rely on speed + The real wild card is going to be how the weapons and armour upgrades effect the pre-existing Japanese units. -It is going to be an interesting match-up.
Kraellin, I agree completely about the monks and the HC. The former is way too powerful and the latter is too weak.
HC should dominate the field albeit at a very hight cost. The Takeda cavalry was really defeated by fieldworks, not yari armed infantry or teppo. The game is historically incorrect in the manner in which it portrays European style samurai pike blocks. The yari and the musket alone as actually deployed by Sengoku armies were not enough to render useless a mounted samurai, especially when he was escorted by his retainers on foot as he often was.
MagyarKhans Cham
07-19-2001, 07:03
hmmm skull sadly i dont have that much time now but i can tell u this....
i ve seen mongol steppe ponies and they are short, very short. and ofcourse they cant compete with a real warhorse for speed and power. but steppeponies are selfmantaining (bad word), can survive many hardships and have a very high endurance.
now.... a normal knight/crusader was carrying heavy armor where a man (80kg) and armor (50 kg) will reduce the knights ability a lot and where teh horses run down fast on energy.
a mongol in general weighs less than 80 kg and his armor much less (depending on unittype). so u can imagine that a sturdy short steppepony is agile enuf to outrun a knight in a small space and also on a long distance.
but when trampling is concerned i would say it is better being trampled by a steppehorse with warrior than real ancient warhorses...
so perhaps i forgot something but it is based on facts and common sense
www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl) might give u soem info on this
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http://home-4.worldonline.nl/%7Et543201/web-mongol/mongol-images/mongolsmiley.gif Quote Although the enemy moves fast, a mongol arrow will kill him at last[/QUOTE]
KumaRatta Yamamoto
07-19-2001, 17:05
Originally posted by shingenmitch2:
The modification, I'd like to see is, reduce their cost and give them a +6 vs. monks similar to the way there are bonuses for Yari armed troops vs. Cav. If the HC could slaughter monks, then people would be apt to buy 1 or 2.
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Now this would have been a great idea, and would have given more balance to the game.
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KumaRatta Yamamoto (Emissary of the ratta clan)Sonkei soshite yuki Ratta Ichizoku. Come and visit us : www.rattaclan.homestead.com (http://www.rattaclan.homestead.com)
Quote Originally posted by KumaRatta Yamamoto:
Originally posted by shingenmitch2:
The modification, I'd like to see is, reduce their cost and give them a +6 vs. monks similar to the way there are bonuses for Yari armed troops vs. Cav. If the HC could slaughter monks, then people would be apt to buy 1 or 2.
___________________________________________
Now this would have been a great idea, and would have given more balance to the game.
[/QUOTE]
I agree. This would justify the higher cost of HC.
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--RADAN(RONIN ashigaru)--
A member of CLAN..what no CLAN??
I honestly prefer h/c because of speed also. If you go head to head with monks you can easily get around them and attack rear or at least flank.
Koga No Goshi
07-20-2001, 01:46
So correct me if I'm wrong, it seems a fair consensus is that although it's controversial to say monks are imbalanced, most people agree that making HC more effective against monks would balance the units a bit more.
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Koga no Goshi
"Nandai"
Since time began
the dead alone know peace.
Life is but melting snow.
Well I would have liked to see the HC as the best unit on the field and all units would have been decimated by them...
Here we are saying that I pay 600 koku in a MP game for a HC who gets killed by YA, YS, YC, WM, MUSK, ARQS most times.
I would like to see the Heavy Cavalry beating most of those units in a more consistent way and not routing after a short round of gunfire...
Tera
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Honour to Clan No Fear.
Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
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Kraellin
07-20-2001, 05:04
well, what i was thinking was that we upgrade the hc as mentioned, but since they're going to start allowing for upgrading armor and such, why not just make an option for any cav unit that for an extra 100 koku (open for debate) or so, you would get warhorses for that cav unit that wouldnt be so skittish around guns and were maybe more effective in some of the other ways mentioned also.
K.
[This message has been edited by Kraellin (edited 07-19-2001).]
MajorFreak
07-20-2001, 20:24
For what it's worth, i believe the HC should have been beefed up. I never use them.
I just we had the capability to edit the units among other things.
Especially the stategy map, that would be cool
Well you guys, when the mongol invasion comes out what if the Mongol Heavy Cavalry totally decimate the Normal h/c?
HC Can still be effective , if used properly. But the most expensive unit should be used head on , not in a complex set of moves. That is not what u expect from such an expensive unit.. that's why i never use too many of em.
send in the Valkyries http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
I too agree that HC is almost completely worthless at the price you have to pay for them.
However giving them a +6 against WM just reinforces the paper/rock/scissors thing. IMHO they should be more powerful in all areas of combat. If we're paying 600 koku for them then they should be worth 600 koku. You should not have to spend 600 koku to buy a unit whose only use is to counter a 500 koku unit (the WM).
I propose that the HC's attack AND armour statistics should be increased. This would make them more effective against all types of troops but, if done properly, will still be vulnerable to yari's, hence maintaining some balance and not making them the new 'super unit'.
Surely these statistics are stored in the binary executable somewhere. It should be easy to hexedit it. Ideally the developers could include this change in the next patch. This would then become the 'official version' and would avoid problems of different versions of the game floating around.
Quote Surely these statistics are stored in the binary executable somewhere. It should be easy to hexedit it. [/QUOTE]
Isn't that considered cheating? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
I agree that HC is a bit weak for its price, but its still a powerful unit in the game. You just have to know how to use them.
My H1 heavy cav can beat H2 monk most of the times. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
I just meant that it would be very easy for the developers to make a patch since they only have to change the values of a few bytes.
Quote Originally posted by Polar:
I agree that HC is a bit weak for its price, but its still a powerful unit in the game. You just have to know how to use them.
My H1 heavy cav can beat H2 monk most of the times. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]
Hmmnn...if you are able to flank the WMs (assuming you are not testing one on one), the Cavalry has a + ATTACK on charging and on flanking right?
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--RADAN--
(The SAMURAI HERO Ashigaru)
A member of CLAN..what no CLAN??
CeltiberoSkullXIII
07-23-2001, 14:32
mmmm... the next problem will be The Mongol BOMBERS...taht unit will be a really monster... any info about the battelfield ninja?... and what about the kensai?. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/person/hippy.gif PEACE EVERYBODY!
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"It's better to let the enemy alive as to kill it ... To TORTURE it!" http://gifanimados.ya.com/terror/calaveras_banderas/flag_wht_blkbns_clr.gif
[This message has been edited by CeltiberoSkullXIII (edited 07-23-2001).]
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