Russian Anti-gay laws and violence, and the Olympic (Winter) Games.

[Moros]

It is sadly already a bit old news and I was surprised not to find a topic about this yet. But Russia who legalised LGB relationships in the '90ies has recently scrapped that law and replaced it with, what is called by journalists, draconian measures. Making outing illegal, spreading gay-propaganda illegal (this includes wearing rainbows or holding hands), adoption by same sex parents and by countries that allow same sex adoptions,... Even worse seem to be the hyped violence the LGB community currently suffers by Neo-nazi organistations (http://www.spectrumhr.org/hot-news-1/putinsbutcherscontinuetopersecutegayteens), who set up dates with gay boys and men that end up in being real torture sessions. Or the mass,raping of Lesbians to "convert them". All with the somewhat, but not really (http://www.spectrumhr.org/hot-news-1/putinsstatetvchannelcallsforviolenceagainstgays), secret approval of the government.

This is the same country where the Olympic (winter) games will be held shortly. In which LGB's are participating and which LGB's will be watching world wide. It reminds me a bit about the human rights debate about China when they held the olympics.

Some are asking for a boycot. Such as the always eloquent Stephen Fry (http://www.stephenfry.com/2013/08/07/an-open-letter-to-david-cameron-and-the-ioc/), Which wouldn't be the only boycot, as some American bars are already scrapping Russian Wodka. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23506425).

And while The Olympic committee first guaranteed it would not be a problem during and at the games, the Russian ministers have multiple times confirmed they will enforce the law. The rule for foreigners would be at least 15 days of prison, deportation and banishment from Russia.

See also:
http://www.spectrumhr.org/hot-news-1
http://www.coe.int/t/Commissioner/Source/LGBT/RussiaSociological_E.pdf (pre change of law)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23603870
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/02/opinion/ghitis-anti-gay-russia-games
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/30/russia-anti-gay-olympic-games-sochi_n_3676311.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-01/russia-to-enforce-anti-gay-law-during-olympic-games-ria-reports.html
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2013/08/russian-sports-minister-says-russia-will-enforce-anti-gay-law-during-olympics/ (http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2013/08/russian-sports-minister-says-russia-will-enforce-anti-gay-law-during-olympics/)
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2013/08/russias-interior-ministry-says-anti-gay-law-will-be-enforced-during-olympics/ (http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2013/08/russias-interior-ministry-says-anti-gay-law-will-be-enforced-during-olympics/)

(I know some website may not be seen as being from highest possible picking order, when it comes to journalism. But much of the information reached me by dutch websites, thus I quickly had to find different English sites that contained the information needed)



So what should the IOC do? What would be the best approach? And are there way or things the EU and US should do to help? I'd gladly hear you opinions as I'm, while shocked and disgusted, not really sure what the best course of action would be.

[rvg]

So what should the IOC do? What would be the best approach? And are there way or things the EU and US should do to help? I'd gladly hear you opinions as I'm, while shocked and disgusted, not really sure what the best course of action would be.

I don't think the IOC should do anything at all: Russians aren't stupid, they have no interest in sabotaging and de-legitimizing their very own games.

[drone]

The IOC won't do anything on their own, and neither will FIFA for 2018. For the simple reason that both organizations are incredibly corrupt and only care about money. The only way they will take action is if their bottom line is severely endangered.

[Montmorency]

:daisy: the light-blues, they're worse than the Jews!

- Russia

[Ironside]

I don't think the IOC should do anything at all: Russians aren't stupid, they have no interest in sabotaging and de-legitimizing their very own games.

So they will only sabotage and de-legitimize their own law? I mean I can totally see a homosexual medal winner openly kiss as a challenge in this case.

It's already some minor rumbling about this in the WC in Athletics atm.

[rvg]

So they will only sabotage and de-legitimize their own law? I mean I can totally see a homosexual medal winner openly kiss as a challenge in this case.

It's already some minor rumbling about this in the WC in Athletics atm.

Russia is notorious for selectively applying/enforcing her laws, forgetting about existing laws, inventing laws on the fly, retroactively applying new laws, etc. It's a complete mess, but it allows the Russian state to do whatever it wants, and what it wants in this particular case is success. Both in as a host and as a participant.

[HopAlongBunny]

It's a bully play, and a power play.
For those with no interest: Not a hill to die on
For those with an interest: I spent 4 stinkin' years getting ready for this! Do I really wanna...

Putin is playing to the home crowd; really could care less.

[Ironside]

Russia is notorious for selectively applying/enforcing her laws, forgetting about existing laws, inventing laws on the fly, retroactively applying new laws, etc. It's a complete mess, but it allows the Russian state to do whatever it wants, and what it wants in this particular case is success. Both in as a host and as a participant.

The law is feeding mostly the same element that wants a Russia looking strong. They certainly won't be happy about it.

But I might be underestimate how much the Russian population accepts double messages or accepts pragmatism above rethoric.

[rvg]

The law is feeding mostly the same element that wants a Russia looking strong. They certainly won't be happy about it.

But I might be underestimate how much the Russian population accepts double messages or accepts pragmatism above rethoric.

Putin doesn't give a crap about what the Russian population thinks. This is his Olympics, so it'll go without a hitch. If that means putting an idiotic law on hold, the idiotic law will be put on hold. Not officially of course. Russia may be full of frothing sheeple, but Putin ain't one of those. At this point all he cares about is prestige, his personal prestige. Successful trouble-free Olympics == prestige.

[Papewaio]

Winter Olympics is dominated by EU particularly Northern Europe.

Scandinavian countries and Finland are the strongest per head of population.

So if any of those are serious about equal rights and anti-facist they should boycott the Winter Olympics.

[Papewaio]

Winter Olympics is dominated by EU particularly Northern Europe.

Scandinavian countries and Finland are the strongest per head of population.

So if any of those are serious about equal rights and anti-facist they should boycott the Winter Olympics.

[HopAlongBunny]

So if any of those are serious about equal rights and anti-facist they should boycott the Winter Olympics.

Putin can't lose.
Boycott confirms Russia as isolated and strengthens Putin's grip
Trouble-free Olympics burnishes Putins' prestige

He wins no matter how you slice it. Maybe you could have teams parade with the rainbow flag; Russia has to enforce the law leading to expelling or disqualifying nations, or quietly swallow and ignores the insult.
The IOC looks like jerks no matter what happens.

[Fragony]

I see no reason for a boycot. I am not against gay-rights but that rainbow stuff is extremily annoying. It's not illegal to be gay in Russia, that there are a lot of incidents of gays getting attacked by idiots has nothing to do with the Olympic Games.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Russia is already at a demographic disadvantage. Extreme amounts of alcoholism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_alcohol_consumption) and a declining population (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Russia+population+growth)does not really bode well for an aspiring global power. If they want to alienate LGBTs and create even more drain on their human resources that's fine.

Putin is not a dictator of an empire, he is a dictator of a bunch of resource rich land. Where would Russia be if the EU no longer needed its natural gas?

[HoreTore]

I sincerely hope we will see a lot of athletes with rainbow colours somewhere on their gear.

The Russian attitude towards gays is completely unacceptable and barbaric.

[rvg]

The Russian attitude towards gays is completely unacceptable and barbaric.

You are mistaking indifference for hostility.

[HoreTore]

You are mistaking indifference for hostility.

I don't believe I am mistaking anything.

Indifference when gay people are tortured fits the "completely unacceptable and barbaric"-label neatly. Indifference which results in gays have reduced rights in society also fits well.

I read an interview with the Russian ambassador to Norway about a week ago. It was utterly hilarious. He acted like he didn't know that what he said is what we found unacceptable(making it illegal to portray gays positively), and kept saying "nono, you don't understand" all the time. Not sure if he's a robot or an idiot though.


Russia isn't a society with "traditional, christian values" like they love to say. This law makes it perfectly clear that Russia in 2013 is a backwards country with barbaric and retarded values.

[rvg]

I don't believe I am mistaking anything.

Indifference when gay people are tortured fits the "completely unacceptable and barbaric"-label neatly. Indifference which results in gays have reduced rights in society also fits well.
Who is torturing them?


I read an interview with the Russian ambassador to Norway about a week ago. It was utterly hilarious. He acted like he didn't know that what he said is what we found unacceptable(making it illegal to portray gays positively), and kept saying "nono, you don't understand" all the time. Not sure if he's a robot or an idiot though.
What did you expect? He's an ambassador.



Russia isn't a society with "traditional, christian values" like they love to say. This law makes it perfectly clear that Russia in 2013 is a backwards country with barbaric and retarded values.
You speak out of utter ignorance. You are equating Russian values with Russian laws; nothing could be further from the truth.

[Fragony]

I sincerely hope we will see a lot of athletes with rainbow colours somewhere on their gear.

The Russian attitude towards gays is completely unacceptable and barbaric.

More concerned about the attitude towards gays people from a certain religion have within our own borders. You can be gay in Russia as long as you don't want to make a point out of it and keep your head down a bit, that's not perfect but making all too much noise about it is kinda hypocrite.

[Papewaio]

You can be gay...as long as you don't want to make a point... and keep your head down a bit, that's not perfect but(t).

Selective quoting... Couldn't resist.

[Fragony]

Selective quoting... Couldn't resist.

:sweetheart:

[Major Robert Dump]

I don't see what the problem is since there are no gay athletes

Chic Filet should be a sponsor.

[Ironside]

Putin is not a dictator of an empire, he is a dictator of a bunch of resource rich land. Where would Russia be if the EU no longer needed its natural gas?

Good question. We're seeing the answer in real time due to the US fracking gas, that's severly price cutting the Russian one.

[HoreTore]

More concerned about the attitude towards gays people from a certain religion have within our own borders. You can be gay in Russia as long as you don't want to make a point out of it and keep your head down a bit, that's not perfect but making all too much noise about it is kinda hypocrite.

Gays in Russia are lured on dates which quickly turn into torture sessions, which is then published on the internet, uncensored. Are you suggesting that going on a date means "making a point of it"?

I don't see much of a difference between the attitude of the resurgent christian values in russia, and the attitudes of muslim immigrants in western europe, by the way.


I don't see what the problem is since there are no gay athletes

Chic Filet should be a sponsor.

Half the norwegians are gay...

[Sir Moody]

I with Horetore here - the stories coming out of Russia are terrifying and the fact their government is actively ignoring these attacks (and worse actively telling the victims not to bother reporting them) very much earns them the "barbaric" moniker

we aren't just talking "good ole fashioned gay beatings" either - we are talking murders, "corrective" rapes, brutal maiming and torture - and still the Police and Government refuse to step in and curb the violence...

as to the Olympics... changing the venue or boycotting the event wouldn't change anything - better to take part and have the Worlds media shine a light on Russia...

[rvg]

I with Horetore here - the stories coming out of Russia are terrifying and the fact their government is actively ignoring these attacks (and worse actively telling the victims not to bother reporting them) very much earns them the "barbaric" moniker

we aren't just talking "good ole fashioned gay beatings" either - we are talking murders, "corrective" rapes, brutal maiming and torture - and still the Police and Government refuse to step in and curb the violence...

Can you provide a link to the aforementioned "murders", "corrective rapes" and the like? The OP link doesn't feature any violence, sexual or otherwise.

[Sir Moody]

here is a link to an amalgamation of some stories which saves me tracking down all the links

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/08/the-20-most-shocking-anti-gay-news-stories-from-russia-so-far/

Unfortunately there are no links to the "corrective rape" stories from actual new sources - some quotes of gay right activists claiming it happens and Stephen Fry made a point of it to the BBC but no actual cases in the news - then again you wouldn't expect there to be since rape is under reported as is even over here

[rvg]

here is a link to an amalgamation of some stories which saves me tracking down all the links

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/08/the-20-most-shocking-anti-gay-news-stories-from-russia-so-far/

Unfortunately there are no links to the "corrective rape" stories from actual new sources - some quotes of gay right activists claiming it happens and Stephen Fry made a point of it to the BBC but no actual cases in the news - then again you wouldn't expect there to be since rape is under reported as is even over here

So... there's a mention of one (1) murder and no corrective rapes. That's just an isolated incident, nothing more.

[HoreTore]

So... there's a mention of one (1) murder and no corrective rapes. That's just an isolated incident, nothing more.

Sounds like you need to research the "Occupy Pedophilia"-group a bit.

A linky: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-russia-violent-videos-show-a-startling-new-form-of-gay-bullying/278294/

[rvg]

Sounds like you need to research the "Occupy Pedophilia"-group a bit.

I don't need to research anything. The evidence presented so far is rather wanting. One guy dead, a few guys beaten up by local drunks and a few people on the internet claiming how they're being repressed and of course the ever present Internet Tough Guys ready to rape pillage and burn...
Yeah, perfect reasons for the athletes all over the world to cripple their sports careers over some unsubstantiated hearsay.

[HoreTore]

I don't need to research anything. The evidence presented so far is rather wanting. One guy dead, a few guys beaten up by local drunks and a few people on the internet claiming how they're being repressed and of course the ever present Internet Tough Guys ready to rape pillage and burn...
Yeah, perfect reasons for the athletes all over the world to cripple their sports careers over some unsubstantiated hearsay.

If you follow the first link in the link I provided, you'll get the VK-profile of a guy with plenty of videos depicting various forms of torture. Completely open, and none of them are prosecuted for their actions.

If that's not a hostile enviroment, I'm not sure what your standards are. Is everything below Auswitchz a-okay?

Another linky:

http://www.towleroad.com/2013/07/watch-russian-homophobes-are-using-social-media-to-lure-entrap-and-torture-gay-teens-video.html

....And one with english subtitles in this article:

http://www.vocativ.com/07-2013/russian-neo-nazis-baiting-beating-gay-teens-in-a-twisted-take-on-to-catch-a-predator/

[rvg]

If you follow the first link in the link I provided, you'll get the VK-profile of a guy with plenty of videos depicting various forms of torture. Completely open, and none of them are prosecuted for their actions.

I saw a few videos. So from the gist of it, these guys pose on the internet as underage boys and lure in sexual predators. Afterwards the predators are publicly exposed... Am I supposed to be outraged over this? Seriously?

[HoreTore]

I saw a few videos. So from the gist of it, these guys pose on the internet as underage boys and lure in sexual predators. Afterwards the predators are publicly exposed... Am I supposed to be outraged over this? Seriously?

Yeah, things are usually worth looking at a bit harder than just first impressions...

This group has, like many christian groups, taken pedophilia as a synonym for homosexuality. The subtitled video features a 15-year old boy being abused.

And look at the men featured in the videos. Do they look like they're middle-aged men or do they look like teenagers, or at best men in the very early 20's?

I'd still say that this torture would be barbaric even if it was actual pedophiles, but this isn't about that at all.

[rvg]

Yeah, things are usually worth looking at a bit harder than just first impressions...
This group has, like many christian groups, taken pedophilia as a synonym for homosexuality. The subtitled video features a 15-year old boy being abused. Christian? :laugh4: These guys are Nazis.


And look at the men featured in the videos. Do they look like they're middle-aged men or do they look like teenagers, or at best men in the very early 20's? There was a video of them busting a guy who came on his "date" with a knife, a pistol, and a bag of weed.


I'd still say that this torture would be barbaric even if it was actual pedophiles, but this isn't about that at all.
There's something that people in the West need to understand about Russia: Russia is LAWLESS. I'm talking about 3rd world North-Western Frontier Province level of lawlessness. They at least try to keep an appearance of law in Moscow and Leningrad; everywhere else you're on your own. You are outraged about a gay guy being beaten up, but you don't have to be gay or muslim, or a foreigner to get in trouble. You can be beaten and/or killed for simply looking at a wrong guy the wrong way, for cutting someone off in traffic, for telling someone to behave properly, etc. etc.
There is no law in Russia. That's the real problem.

[HoreTore]

I did not claim they are christian(notice the lack of the word "other" before the word "christian"?), I merely pointed out that they are making a claim that, in our western world, is usually done by christian groups.

The Russian orthodox group is a whole 'nother matter, and you often see priests marching with neo-nazis.

Russia is of course not a state with a functioning justice system or police force(I'm a commie, my knowledge of Russia is thus a bit more than just surface knowledge), and hate-gangs have found several different kinds of victims to beat up. The gays are far from alone in their situation.

Couple this with organized groups with stated victims to target, social media fame for theof stories of police and state behaviour going far beyond the normal Russian incompetence, and I feel perfectly justified in calling this utter barbarism.

[rvg]

... I feel perfectly justified in calling this utter barbarism.

It's all relative. This would be barbaric within the framework of a properly functioning nation state. Russia is anything but that. So in the context of that situation these occurrences aren't barbaric, just bad.

[Papewaio]

To quote Princess Bride 'I don't think you understand what that word actually means'


| Definition | Thesaurus | TranslationsAlso found in: Legal, Acronyms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia

or





bar·bar·i·an (bär-bâr-n)
n.
1. A member of a people considered by those of another nation or group to have a primitive civilization.
2. A fierce, brutal, or cruel person.
3. An insensitive, uncultured person; a boor. See Synonyms at boor.
[French barbarien, from barbare, barbarous, from Latin barbarus; see barbarous.]
bar·bari·an adj.
bar·bari·an·ism n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
barbarian [bɑːˈbɛərɪən]
n
1. (Social Science / Anthropology & Ethnology) a member of a primitive or uncivilized people
2. a coarse, insensitive, or uncultured person
3. a vicious person

A non functioning state is a barbaric one.

[rvg]

Don't patronize me, I have a damn good idea what it means. It's a matter of perspective. The samurai considered europeans to be barbarians.

[Papewaio]

You cannot excuse the actions of a subset of people in Russia being violent (barbaric) by excusing it because the Russian state is non functioning (Barbaric).

Two barbaric characteristics do not negate each other and form a bad situation. It just reinforces the perception that it is a barbaric state of affairs.

[rvg]

You cannot excuse the actions of a subset of people in Russia being violent (barbaric) by excusing it because the Russian state is non functioning (Barbaric).

Two barbaric characteristics do not negate each other and form a bad situation. It just reinforces the perception that it is a barbaric state of affairs.

I'm not excusing anyone's actions, I merely refuse to stereotype 140 million people based on the actions of a tiny minority.

[Papewaio]

I agree that the violence at this point is being handed out by a minority whom many characterize as Neo-nazis.

What is telling however is the way the state is handling this. Tacit support and harsh laws based on someone's gender is barbaric.

That the people on the whole seem comfortable with this makes them passively complicit.

That we would still send entertainers there for a big party to celebrate makes our countries complicit too.

[rvg]

What is telling however is the way the state is handling this. Tacit support and harsh laws based on someone's gender is barbaric.
Russian state is rotten to the core. It's also completely detached from Russian people and persists strictly through fraud and oppression. In fact, it is so utterly indifferent to the people that it doesn't even bother hiding electoral fraud. I recommend googling "146%" when you have a chance. It's equally sad and hilarious.


That the people on the whole seem comfortable with this makes them passively complicit.
People understand that their will does not matter. They are complicit because they do not believe they can change anything.

[HoreTore]

I'm not excusing anyone's actions, I merely refuse to stereotype 140 million people based on the actions of a tiny minority.

Remember that I'm a socialist, rvg, I don't give a crap about the actual individuals, and when I call a society barbaric I'm not really talking about the individuals who make up that society(and I strongly believe that humans are basically good as well).

The person is the product of the society, and it is the society which is to blame here.

[rvg]

Remember that I'm a socialist...
You keep saying that as if it's supposed to somehow enhance your expertise about Russia. It does not.


I don't give a crap about the actual individuals, and when I call a society barbaric I'm not really talking about the individuals who make up that society(and I strongly believe that humans are basically good as well).
A barbaric society populated by non-barbaric individuals? That's quite ridiculous.


The person is the product of the society, and it is the society which is to blame here.
It's a two way street.

[HoreTore]

You keep saying that as if it's supposed to somehow enhance your expertise about Russia. It does not.


A barbaric society populated by non-barbaric individuals? That's quite ridiculous.


It's a two way street.

Expert on Russia? No, that I'm a socialist means that I see the world as collectivist as opposed to individualist, and I have no problem seeing a barbaric society populated by sane people.

And being socialist, I of course don't see your two way street, I see the person as overwhelmingly a product of society. Not trying to start a new discussion here, I simply said this to clarify my position.

[rvg]

I have no problem seeing a barbaric society populated by sane people.

I find that rather curious. If you build a sand castle, it has to be made out of sand. If you build a sand castle out of rocks, it's no longer a sand castle.

[Ironside]

I find that rather curious. If you build a sand castle, it has to be made out of sand. If you build a sand castle out of rocks, it's no longer a sand castle.

Poor allegory. The castle doesn't directly influence the building material and the building material itself doesn't change with time and/or outside influence.

We accept a lot of crazy stuff in the name of tradition, progression and the social game.

[rvg]

Poor allegory. The castle doesn't directly influence the building material and the building material itself doesn't change with time and/or outside influence.

We accept a lot of crazy stuff in the name of tradition, progression and the social game.

The point is that the society at large is representative of its most common basic components.

[Ironside]

The point is that the society at large is representative of its most common basic components.

You're Assyrian if I remember correctly? To make it more general in any case, an immigrant is a slightly different person depending on where he or she grew up, agreed?

And growing up is influenced a lot by the history of the family and region. So the society itself changes how the basic components looks like, making both top-down laws possible in changing attitude (far from always of course) and gives also room for a toleration window, as in "I don't like this way, but it's the way it's been (or should be) done and therefore I won't protest against it enough to create the change".

See the police abuse thread and the support of the congress for US' examples. The American society is coloured by it, it's hated by their own citizens, yet it's still there, accepted enough to remain.

[rvg]

You're Assyrian if I remember correctly? To make it more general in any case, an immigrant is a slightly different person depending on where he or she grew up, agreed?
To an extent, yes.



See the police abuse thread and the support of the congress for US' examples. The American society is coloured by it, it's hated by their own citizens, yet it's still there, accepted enough to remain.
Of course they're accepted because overall they do a lot more good than harm. They're kept not because of some tradition, but because they perform a very necessary function and serve a very necessary purpose.

[Ironside]

Of course they're accepted because overall they do a lot more good than harm. They're kept not because of some tradition, but because they perform a very necessary function and serve a very necessary purpose.

But the amount of harm they're allowed to do is decided by tradition. In the US the police has been traditionally corrupt (some places more than other) and so has the congress. So it's seen as more acceptable, even when it's disliked. To put in other terms, the team that says "..., but he's our crook" will have more crooks than the team that tolerates none of it, even if both equally hates the crooks guts.

But with your building block theory, you're arguing that the average American is more corrupt than the average Scandinavian (http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/) simply by default (every building block is sand after all) and you also discount that the society can force it's will upon the citizen. If everything is run on bribes, no matter you personal opinion about it, you can't avoid them and still live a functional life there.

[rvg]

But the amount of harm they're allowed to do is decided by tradition.
I disagree, it's decided on a case by case basis.


In the US the police has been traditionally corrupt (some places more than other) and so has the congress.
More corrupt than who? Besides, the biggest problem with cops here is excessive enthusiasm for using lethal force coupled with some good old profiling. That's the problem, not the corruption.


So it's seen as more acceptable, even when it's disliked. To put in other terms, the team that says "..., but he's our crook" will have more crooks than the team that tolerates none of it, even if both equally hates the crooks guts.
Do you have an example in mind?


But with your building block theory, you're arguing that the average American is more corrupt than the average Scandinavian (http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/) simply by default (every building block is sand after all) and you also discount that the society can force it's will upon the citizen. If everything is run on bribes, no matter you personal opinion about it, you can't avoid them and still live a functional life there.
By my building block theory average American is more tolerant of cops shooting people compared to an average Scandinavian, and I happen to agree with that.

[Ironside]

I disagree, it's decided on a case by case basis.

And this case by case basis is based on very defined rules or some vague idea that simply form up in the combined conciousness?Because the second one is exactly what I'm talking about with tradition in this case. Maybe culture is a better word, although I wanted extra focus on the historical weight. It's those unwritten rules that forms up that you as a group agrees on.


More corrupt than who? Besides, the biggest problem with cops here is excessive enthusiasm for using lethal force coupled with some good old profiling. That's the problem, not the corruption.

Corruption was used more generally here. Power abuse as an alternative term? If you want more traditional corruption you got the impound laws that allows the police to sell of property of suspects.


Do you have an example in mind?

From the top of my head, you got the good old supporting your own senator, while thinking all the rest are crooks. Or that dubious party member that's only supported because he's got the right party.


By my building block theory average American is more tolerant of cops shooting people compared to an average Scandinavian, and I happen to agree with that.

Then you would not have any problems with that sane people can be more tolerant of a barbaric society.

And if you're going with that Americans being more tolerant of shooting people period, then please continue with that Americans are more willing to screw people over so that they can get a bigger paycheck in the future (aka what the congress is accused of) to be consistant.

[Montmorency]

As an example, think of the Germans in WW2. Yes, many disliked Jews (and Gypsies, and...), many even hated them outright. But what is it that made them casually and remorselessly (on the whole) commit or contribute to crimes that normally they wouldn't have conceived of, wouldn't have condoned in theory? It wasn't ideology - it was society, its roles and statuses, and its division of labor.

German society normalized work in general as simply a duty that had to be carried out, no matter how distasteful.

First, consider the civilian roles in the Holocaust.

For the mechanic maintaining the trains that carry the Jews to the camps, it's just a matter of keeping the machinery running, who cares what they're doing with the Jews, none of my business.

For the file clerk, it's just a matter of putting the paperwork in its proper place, who cares if the contents of the paperwork are bizarre, it's just something that must be done.

For the finance specialist in the Department of Economic Adminstration, overseeing civilian production might as well be the same as compiling Jewish death-lists and calculating the logistics and expenses of mass extermination.

Now, considering the SS killers, and even all the complicit Wehrmacht rank and file:

The military narrows the focus, creates a wholly new society for an individual to operate in. Individual initiative in the German military was encouraged, but this existed within a tightly-bound framework based on obedience to the spirit of the higher-ups. The pluralistic society of civilian life was almost totally marginalized by a new society based on strict hierarchy, but above even that, cameraderie. So if there's a heavy institutional influence weighing down on soldiers, not only is their behavior strongly affected by it, but this very behavior massively increases the effect by setting the behaviors in a social framework defined by this cameraderie, so that soldiers do because their training, conditioning, and situation pushes them to, and then in turn soldiers do because their fellow soldiers do the same.

Moreover, the interpretive paradigms enforced by the German military at the time normalized brutality, so that not only was it just part of a job, it became something enjoyable, it became something commendable, something to boast about and discuss with comrades. You see how it all fits?

I'm sure such influences were much stronger even, on, say, the Japanese footsoldiers.

All this is heavily magnified during war, and even more so during battle situations.

To sum up, what that means is that men (and these are mostly working-class or rural young men in question) with violent or sadistic tendencies were given full outlet in the context of the military, and even more sensitive or empathetic men were acting within the same institution, under the same norms, and with these 'more barbaric' individuals as peers or superiors. Violence with impunity, something that would not have been tolerated to such an extent in the peacetime society of Germany,

Plus (as an aside, almost), there's the fact that Hitler's Germany had for years prior to the war (and in many cases, during the formative adolescent years of the soldiers in question) deliberately undermined the pluralism in German society and encouraged violence against any and all declared enemies as virtuous and necessary. (See below)

So, for a Heer sergeant that is invited to come along to a mass shooting of Jews by an SS officer, that is simply an obligation to a higher-up, perhaps even a somewhat distasteful one, but one that is easily carried out in its moment, and then left behind.

For the same man, killing a POW in the heat of battle would be comparatively nothing, spurred on by training, racist ideology, but most of all the fact that his new (i.e. current) paradigm for confronting and interpreting the world shows the combatant before him as an insult and a threat to his solidarity with fellow troops, in his unit and beyond. Probably he would not have shot a Russian man over a patriotic bar fight, perhaps he would have recoiled at the thought, but in this institutional and situational context/environment, it is not only seen as conducive toward or part of carrying out his professional duty, but morally respectable, or at worst (in retrospect) unremarkable and understandable.

For an SS officer himself, one who is daily operating under a responsibility to collocate and eliminate specified enemies of the state, one who on average would have ideology as an even stronger psychological factor, it would be like cleaning rats out of a sewer to maintain the infrastructure of civilization - dirty and unpleasant work, but something that must be done, and moreover something which is right. Common humanity is a meaningless refrain in the context of all we have discussed, the potential (ethereally-so) senselessness of the particular orders or genocidal program itself even more so. The possible moral interpretations of such large-scale murder would not strike him at all, or would be trumped by all we've discussed. The important thing is that even this character, so much the likelier to sadistically enjoy his bloody work, would probably at the end of the day feel nothing more than the satisfaction of a job well-done. This is all so even if, 5 years before, this man had been nothing but a 'dinner-party Anti-Semite', one who would have reacted with shock if offered to 'break some kike skulls' in the neighborhood. The commited Nazis, or just plain bloodthirsty men, have already been mentioned, and we need no elaboration to explain why they might have acted the way they did at this point.

An example from a POW, just cuz:


HAGEN: I took part in all that business with the Jews in 1936—these poor Jews! (Laughter.) We smashed the window panes and hauled the people out. They quickly put on some clothes and (we drove them) away. We made short work of them. I hit them on the head with an iron truncheon. It was great fun. I was in the SA at that time. We used to go along the streets at night and haul them out. No time was lost, we packed them off to the station and away they went. They were out of the village and gone in a flash. They had to work in quarries but they would rather be shot than work. There was plenty of shooting, I assure you. As early as 1932, we used to stand outside the windows and shout: “Germany awake!

I recommend this (http://www.amazon.com/Soldaten-On-Fighting-Killing-Dying/dp/0307958124/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1376952689&sr=8-1&keywords=soldaten)book, BTW.

In case you've forgotten by now, the point of this post was to demonstrate how "society", "reference frameworks", and all that can contribute to individual behavior far more than individual factors such as personality, experience, personal philosophy, and so on. How otherwise 'moral', 'normal', or ambivalent Germans could be shaped by society to (for the most part) unquestioningly and casually - which is to say without incurring any particular emotional impact, neither righteous hateful satisfaction nor painful remorse - directly or indirectly kill off millions of humans, many of them fellow countrymen, simply because they were declared enemies by the political order.

Here are a few transcripts of spontaneous conversations by German POWs, just to complement the TLDR (underlines my emphasis):


THÖNE: I expect you have heard about the treatment of the Jews in RUSSIA. In POLAND the Jews got off comparatively lightly. There are still Jews in POLAND living there. But in the occupied parts of RUSSIA there aren’t any left.
V. BASSUS: Were the ones in RUSSIA considered more dangerous?
THÖNE: More hatred—they were not dangerous. I am not letting any cat out of the bag by telling you this. I think I can safely say that all Jews in RUSSIA, including women and children, were shot without exception.
V. BASSUS: Wasn’t there some compelling motive for it?
THÖNE: Hatred was the compelling motive.
V. BASSUS: Hatred by the Jews—or?
THÖNE: By us. It isn’t a reason, but it is actual fact.



MINNIEUR (re: execution of Jews in LITHUANIA, near VILNA while he was a member of the “Arbeitsdienst”): They had to strip to their shirts and the women to their vests and knickers and then they were shot by the “Gestapo.” All the Jews there were executed.
HARTELT: In their shirts?
MINNIEUR: Yes.
HARTELT: What was the reason for that?
MINNIEUR: Well, so that they don’t take anything into the grave with them. The things were collected up, cleaned and mended.
HARTELT: They used them, did they?
MINNIEUR: Yes, of course.
HARTELT: (Laughs.)
MINNIEUR: Believe me, if you had seen it it would have made you shudder! We watched one of these executions once.
HARTELT: Did they shoot them with machine guns?
MINNIEUR: With tommy guns … We were actually there when a pretty girl was shot.
HARTELT: What a pity.
MINNIEUR: They were all shot ruthlessly! She knew that she was going to be shot. We were going past on motor cycles and saw a procession; suddenly she called to us and we stopped and asked where they were going. She said they were going to be shot. At first we thought she was making some sort of a joke. She more or less told us the way to where they were going. We rode there and—it was quite true—they were shot.
HARTELT: Did she walk there in her clothes?
MINNIEUR: Yes, she was smartly dressed. She certainly was a marvelous girl.
HARTELT: Surely the one who shot her, shot wide.
MINNIEUR: No one can do anything about it. With … like that no one shoots wide. They arrived and the first ones had to line up and were shot. The fellows were standing there with their tommy guns and just sprayed quickly up and down the line, once to the right and once to the left with their tommy guns; there were six men there and a row of—
HARTELT: Then no one knew who had shot the girl?
MINNIEUR: No, they didn’t know. They clipped on a magazine, fired to the right and left and that was that! It didn’t matter whether they were still alive or not; when they were hit they fell over backwards into a pit. Then the next group came up with ashes and chloride of lime and scattered it over those who were lying down there; then they lined up and so it went on.
HARTELT: Did they have to cover them? Why was that?
MINNIEUR: Because the bodies would rot; they tipped chloride of lime over them so that there should be no smell and all that.
HARTELT: What about the people who were in there who were not properly dead yet?
MINNIEUR: That was bad luck for them; they died down there!
HARTELT: (Laughs.)
MINNIEUR: I can tell you, you heard a terrific screaming and shrieking!
HARTELT: Were the women shot at the same time?
MINNIEUR: Yes.
HARTELT: Were you watching when the pretty Jewess was there?
MINNIEUR: No, we weren’t there then. All we know was that she was shot.
HARTELT: Did she say anything beforehand? Had you met her before?
MINNIEUR: Yes, we met her the day before; the next day we wondered why she didn’t come. Then we set off on the motor-cycle.
HARTELT: Was she working there too?
MINNIEUR: Yes.
HARTELT: Making roads?
MINNIEUR: No, she cleaned our barracks. The week we were there we went into the barracks to sleep so that we didn’t … outside—
HARTELT: I bet she let you sleep with her too?
MINNIEUR: Yes, but you had to take care not to be found out. It’s nothing now; it was really a scandal, the way they slept with Jewish women.
HARTELT: What did she say, that she—?
MINNIEUR: Nothing at all. Well, we chatted together and she said she came from down there, from LANDSBERG on the WARTHE, and was at GÖTTINGEN university.
HARTELT: And a girl like that let anyone sleep with her!
MINNIEUR: Yes. You couldn’t tell that she was a Jewess; she was quite a nice type, too. It was just her bad luck that she had to die with the others. 75,000 Jews were shot there.


GRAF: The infantry say they shot 15,000 Jews on the aerodrome at POROPODITZ. They drove them all together, fired machine guns at them and shot them all. They left about a hundred of them alive. First they all had to dig a hole—a sort of ditch—then they shot them all, except a hundred, whom they left alive. Then these hundred had to put them all in a hole and cover them up, leaving a small opening. Then they shot the hundred and put them in too and closed it. I wouldn’t believe it but someone showed me the hole, where they were, all trodden down. Fifteen thousand of them! It’s in a clearing in the wood, like this camp here. He says they worked for a fortnight at the hole.
KRATZ: I once saw a big lorry convoy came into NIKOLAJEV, with at least thirty trucks. And what was in them? Nothing but naked bodies—men, women and children all together in one truck. We went over to see where they were going—soldiers: “Come here.” I watched; there was a big hole. Formerly they simply made the people stand on the edge, so that they just toppled in. But that meant too much work in throwing the bodies out, because not enough go in when they just fall in anyhow. So men had to get down into the hole—one had to stand up on the edge and the other got down inside. The bodies were laid out on the bottom with others on top—it was nothing but a spongy mass afterwards; they piled one on top of another, like sardines. That sort of thing is not forgotten. I shouldn’t like to be an S.S. man. It’s not only the Russian commissars who’ve shot people in the back—others have too. Such things are avenged.

These are all from rank-and-file Wehrmacht men so far. See the matter-of-factness, the 'eh-what-can-you-do, work-is-work, -war-is-war, orders-are-orders' attitude?

The next is between generals. As you can see, the high-minded aristocrats tended to be a bit less comfortable with the genocide business, but even so rarely did much of anything to stop the killings.


KITTEL: It was terrible. I once saw them being transported but I had no idea they were people who were being driven to their execution.
SCHAEFER: Have the people any idea what is in store for them?
KITTEL: They know perfectly well; they are apathetic. I’m not sensitive myself but such things just turn my stomach; I always said: “One ceases to be a human being; that’s got nothing more to do with warfare.” I once had the senior chemist for organic chemistry from IG FARBEN as my adjutant and because they had nothing better for him to do he had been called up and sent to the front. He’s back here again now, though he got there quite accidentally. The man was done for weeks. He sat in the corner the whole time and wept. He said: “When one considers that it may be like that everywhere!” He was an important scientist and a musician with a highly strung nervous system.
FELBERT: That shows why FINLAND deserted us, why RUMANIA deserted us, why everyone hates us everywhere—not because of that single incident but because of the great number of similar incidents.
KITTEL: If one were to destroy all the Jews of the world simultaneously there wouldn’t remain a single accuser.
FELBERT (very excited and shouting): It’s obvious; it’s such a scandal; it doesn’t need to be a Jew to accuse us—we ourselves must bring the charge; we must accuse the people who have done it.
KITTEL: Then one must admit that our State system was wrongly built.
FELBERT (shouting): It is, it’s obvious that it’s wrong, there’s no doubt about it. Such a thing is unbelievable.
KITTEL: We are the tools …
SCHAEFER: I think, if such conditions are permitted in a modern State, one can only say that the sooner this pack of swine disappear, the better.
KITTEL: We fools have just watched all these things going on.
BRUHN: If you come along to-day as a German general people think “He knows everything; he knows about that, too,” and if we then say: “We had nothing to do with it,” the people won’t believe us. All the hatred and all the aversion is a result purely and simply of those murders, and I must say that if one believes at all in divine justice, one deserves, if one has five children, as I have, to have one or two killed in this way, one does not deserve victory; one has deserved what has now come to pass.
FELBERT: I don’t know at whose instigation that was done—if it came from HIMMLER then he is the arch-criminal. Actually you are the first general who has told us that himself. I’ve always believed that these articles were all lies.
KITTEL: I keep silent about a great many things; they are too awful.

On the other hand:


[LT-GEN] SIRY: One mustn’t admit it openly, but we were far too soft. All these horrors have landed us in the soup now. But if we’d carried them through to the hilt, made the people disappear completely—no-one would say a thing. These half measures are always wrong.

Now just more quotes:


“They call us ‘German swine.’ Look at our great men, such as WAGNER, LISZT, GOETHE, SCHILLER, and they call us ‘German swine.’ I really can’t make it out.
“Do you know why that is? It is because the Germans are too humane and they take advantage of this humaneness and abuse us.

Even the Germans who expressed outright shock were, of course due to societal forces, weighed down by a lethargic apathy towards the atrocities:


PRIEBE: At CHELM (?)—my father told me about it too, he is in EAST GALICIA, on excavation work. They also employed Jews to begin with. I don’t believe anyone could hate or oppose Jews more than my father did, but he also said that the methods they used were horrible. Above all, the works at GALICIA employed Jewish labour only, Jewish engineers and everything imaginable. He says that the people of German blood (Volksdeutsche) in the UKRAINE are completely useless. The Jewish engineers were really damned clever. Then there were various types too. There was a Jewish council in the town which supervised the Jews. My father once spoke to one of his engineers, who said: “Yes, sir, when I look at the Jews en masse, then I can understand why there are anti-Jewish people.” Then came that period of mass arrests and the S.S. commandant simply sent my father a chit saying: “By midday to-day so-and-so many Jews must be named.” My father said that it was dreadful for him. They were simply shot. The order came: “So-and-so many shootings are to be reported by such-and-such a date.” The S.S. leader, a Sturmbannführer, rounded up the Jews, when there were no more, he sent the Jewish council a … “By 1430 hours to-day so-and-so many pounds of meat, fats, spices, etc. must be produced.” If it wasn’t there by then, one them was shot. But many of the Jews poisoned themselves.


AMBERGER: I once spoke to a Feldwebel who said: “This mass-shooting of Jews absolutely sickens me. This murdering is no profession! Hooligans can do that.

And also, don't forget that many of these people would have been fine with the Jews being "liquidated" somehow - it's just that mass-shootings in particular discomfited them.


PRIEBE: The story went round that they were simply driven into a sort of reservoir. Then water was let in and ran out again at the other end. By then there was nothing left of them at all. The number of young SS fellows who had nervous breakdowns simply because they could carry on with it no longer! There were some real thugs amongst them too. One of them told my father he didn’t know what he’d do when all the Jews were dead. He had got so used to it he could no longer exist without it. I couldn’t do that either. I simply couldn’t. I could kill fellows who had committed crimes, but women and children—and tiny children! The children scream and everything. The only good thing is that they took the SS and not the Armed Forces for that.

See that? The division of labor stretches the impact thin.


AUE: Perhaps we didn’t always do right in killing Jews in masses in the East.
SCHNEIDER: It was undoubtedly a mistake. Well, not so much a mistake as un-diplomatic. We could have done that later.
AUE: After we had finally established ourselves.
SCHNEIDER: We should have put it off until later, because Jews are, and will always remain, influential people, especially in AMERICA


JöSTING: He had to pass the spot, however, and witnessed the scene. He told me himself that the barn was bunged full of women and children. Petrol was poured over them and they were burnt alive. He saw it himself. He said: “You can’t imagine what their screams sound like. Is such a thing right?” I said: “No, it isn’t right. You can do whatever you like with them, but not burn them alive or gas them or heaven knows what else! It’s not their fault. They should be imprisoned and after the war has been won you can say: ‘This people must disappear. Put them in a ship! Sail wherever you wish, we don’t care where you land but there is no room for you in GERMANY from now on!’ ” We have made enemies galore![...] I’d be first to agree to getting rid of the Jews; I’d show them the way—out of GERMANY! But why massacre them? That can be done after the war, when we can say “We have the power, we have the might; we have won the war; we can afford to do it!” But now! Look at the British government—who are they? The Jews. Who governs in AMERICA? The Jews. While Bolshevism is Judaism in excelsis.

And another one:


SWOBODA: The executions were like an assembly line. You got a 12 marks bonus, 120 kroner per day for the shooting commandos. We didn’t do anything else. Groups of twelve men led in six men and then shot them. I didn’t do anything else for maybe 14 days. We got double rations because it puts a lot of strain on your nerves … We shot women, too. Women were better than men. We saw a lot of men, Jews, too, who started crying in their final moment. If there were weaklings there, two Czech nationals came and held them up in the middle … The man earned his double rations and 12 mark bonus, killing 50 women in half a day. In ROISIN we also carried out executions.
KAHRAD: There was a large airfield there.
SWOBODA: At the barracks, it was a treadmill. They came from one side, and there was a column of maybe 500 or 600 men. They came in through the gate and went to the firing range. There they were killed, picked up and brought away, and then the next six would come. At first you said, great, better than doing normal duty, but after a couple days you would have preferred normal duty. It took a toll on your nerves. Then you just gritted your teeth and at some point you didn’t care. There were some of us who got weak in the knees when shooting women, and we had selected experienced frontline soldiers. But orders were orders.

Now, these are all from declassified docs in national archives (so despite their coming from a book, there can not be copyright infringement), but I'll leave off here, expecting that reading these must be somewhat - tiring...

[rvg]

And so the thread comes to its successful Godwinian ending. As they all do.

[Montmorency]

Huh, I'm not equating the present-day Russians to "evil Nazi scum" or whatever, I'm just using the example of Nazi Germany to put up an argument for the power of society in determining individual action

- or something like that. :shrug:

I suppose it's no coincidence that this book I linked is the book I'm currently reading. :blush:

[HoreTore]

And so the thread comes to its successful Godwinian ending. As they all do.

What a truly pathetic response to a very good post. Grow up.

As for Monty, I was kinda surprised to see such a long post on that topic without a reference to Hannah Aarendt... If you haven't read her, you should ~;)

[Montmorency]

Looking at the post the following morning, I see it's customarily vague, digressive, and incomplete. It's like a handful of pieces to the corners of a jig-saw puzzle. There's even an actual thought-break in the middle!

I just want to emphasize though, with reference to the transcripts, that these are spontaneous conversations between peers in various branches of the German Armed Forces (mainly Wehrmacht). They reflect in a broad way not just what was acceptable for discussion between such men - soldiers - but the - I don't know, say inflection - brought to the subject. Also, I could have commentated on some of the individual conversations more, though perhaps some would say that it's better to let the men speak for themselves...


If you haven't read her, you should

You'd be surprised at how many people I haven't read - or would you? :wink:

[Sarmatian]

Not to disagree that there are huge problems for LGBT population in Russia, but the bottom line is, there's not a single country in the world where alternative sexualities are 100% accepted.

Those competitions need a venue and it's not the first time the venue isn't 100% perfect in all ways. But, since it's Russia in this case (as it was with Beijing 2010) it's so cool to point it out.

In other news, the sky is blue, water is wet and the Earth keeps spinning.

[rvg]

Careful there, you might interrupt an lgbt/holocaust circlejerk.

[Papewaio]

Not to disagree that there are huge problems for LGBT population in Russia, but the bottom line is, there's not a single country in the world where alternative sexualities are 100% accepted.

Those competitions need a venue and it's not the first time the venue isn't 100% perfect in all ways. But, since it's Russia in this case (as it was with Beijing 2010) it's so cool to point it out.

In other news, the sky is blue, water is wet and the Earth keeps spinning.

Because legalized gay marriage in some countries is equivalent to being tortured by countrymen, persecuted by the state or jailed for being gay in other countries.

Of course some might argue in the same fashion that water boarding is college pranks and that marriage is torture.

A sports event is an entertainment venue. I do not think we should celebrate such a backwards country just because a corrupt Olympic committe got a few extra back handers to select it.

[Sarmatian]

Marriage is torture, that's an axiom. :)

On a serious note, I don't disagree that situation is bad in that regard in Russia. What I despise, though, is selective outrage over it.

South Africa is many, many times worse than Russia when it comes LGBT rights. Where was the outrage back then?

[Kralizec]

South Africa is a hostile environment for LGBT people due to bad law enforcement. Russia has the same problem but has opted to enshrine this bigotry into law by making "homosexual propaganda" a criminal offense. Pretty big difference.

[rvg]

South Africa is a hostile environment for LGBT people due to bad law enforcement. Russia has the same problem but has opted to enshrine this bigotry into law by making "homosexual propaganda" a criminal offense. Pretty big difference.

Since you bring up enforcement, what makes you think that this law will be dutifully enforced in Russia?

[Kralizec]

Presumably the athletes will be asked to be discreet about it. And if a gay athlete kisses his partner in front of the cameras I expect that it would be censored, but that would probably be the end of it.

I expect that Putin & Co don't want to enforce them on the athletes (or high-profile foreigners in general) because they don't want the diplomatic mess it would cause. Supposedly they even assured the IOC that they wouldn't do so. In the end it's about wether or not it's ethical to hold an event like this in an autocratic craphole like Russia, to stipulate for exceptions for your own privileged people while the residents of the country are subject to harsh treatment.

Problem is, under that line of thought the pool of countries where you can olympic games becomes rather limited, while the whole premise of the event is that it's for all nations and all people. Some people argue that countries like Russia and China use these events as propaganda tools. But unless I missed something, the IOC is not a missionary organisation that aims to promote democracy and other good stuff, even though a lot of people expect it to be.

[rvg]

... But unless I missed something, the IOC is not a missionary organisation that aims to promote democracy and other good stuff, even though a lot of people expect it to be.

Precisely.

[Sarmatian]

Presumably the athletes will be asked to be discreet about it. And if a gay athlete kisses his partner in front of the cameras I expect that it would be censored, but that would probably be the end of it.

Two Russian girls actually kissed on the mouth during the world championship in athletics in Moscow after they received their medals. They were both cute and it was hot :). I don't know what was the reaction to it. I'll google it.

EDIT: I was too far away. Only the right one is kinda cute, and I'm not sure it was full on the mouth but close enough.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/08/18/kseniya_ryzhova_and_tatyana_firova_russian_athletes_kiss_on_winners_podium.html

EDIT 2: This was the photo I've seen originally. Here they both look cute and kiss full on the mouth. Now, if they were only to put on nurse uniforms... :)

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/national-international/Podum-Kiss-Between-Two-Russian-Female-Athletes-Spark-Debate-220105411.html



Problem is, under that line of thought the pool of countries where you can olympic games becomes rather limited, while the whole premise of the event is that it's for all nations and all people. Some people argue that countries like Russia and China use these events as propaganda tools. But unless I missed something, the IOC is not a missionary organisation that aims to promote democracy and other good stuff, even though a lot of people expect it to be.

Give the man a cigar!!!

But, only Russia and China? Don't you think that placing a WTC flag along national flags of participant nations during Salt Lake City Olympic games was using the event as a propaganda tool???

[Montmorency]

Just to oblige with a rag on the former Russian Empire, I'd like to drop a story:

A guy I know bought an apartment in Ukraine for cheap after its owner died.

Problem is, the former owner-man had taken out a mortgage off the books, which no one knew about until after the property was sold to New Guy, so now the bank who 'owns' the mortgage is suing New Guy.

Apparently, in the Ukraine mortgages are attached not to the borrower, but to the property itself*; thus, the bank can demand that New Guy pay up on this mature loan - which the previous owner had deferred or skipped out on somehow.

Again, let me emphasize that the original loan was off the books and that Ukrainian mortgages are linked not to the borrower but to the property. Also, the interest rate is like 15% or something.

:thinking:...:dizzy:

I hope the poor fellow can settle out of court or else find some kind of loophole.

*And this isn't how it works in the US, right? I haven't yet taken out a mortgage, and I only know a few basic generalities, but surely in the US the estate of the deceased borrower would be expected to honor the loan, or else whoever manages the property or appropriates it (and why not the bank itself, there...) - right? I can't recall who exactly New Guy bought the property from, but whoever sold it ought to be repaying any outstanding loans, right? That makes a little more sense, right?

How the hell can it make sense to transfer the mortgage to the buyer?! What a back-asswards system. In fact, I wonder if this is really even how it works in the Ukraine and whether the New Guy, as a foreigner, is getting scammed by this bank...

[Sarmatian]

Just to oblige with a rag on the former Russian Empire, I'd like to drop a story:

A guy I know bought an apartment in Ukraine for cheap after its owner died.

Problem is, the former owner-man had taken out a mortgage off the books, which no one knew about until after the property was sold to New Guy, so now the bank who 'owns' the mortgage is suing New Guy.

Apparently, in the Ukraine mortgages are attached not to the borrower, but to the property itself*; thus, the bank can demand that New Guy pay up on this mature loan - which the previous owner had deferred or skipped out on somehow.

Again, let me emphasize that the original loan was off the books and that Ukrainian mortgages are linked not to the borrower but to the property. Also, the interest rate is like 15% or something.

:thinking:...:dizzy:

I hope the poor fellow can settle out of court or else find some kind of loophole.

*And this isn't how it works in the US, right? I haven't yet taken out a mortgage, and I only know a few basic generalities, but surely in the US the estate of the deceased borrower would be expected to honor the loan, or else whoever manages the property or appropriates it (and why not the bank itself, there...) - right? I can't recall who exactly New Guy bought the property from, but whoever sold it ought to be repaying any outstanding loans, right? That makes a little more sense, right?

How the hell can it make sense to transfer the mortgage to the buyer?! What a back-asswards system. In fact, I wonder if this is really even how it works in the Ukraine and whether the New Guy, as a foreigner, is getting scammed by this bank...

Mortgages are always tied to the property. That's why they're called mortgages and not credits. The deal is that you shouldn't be able to transfer ownership unless the bank okays it.

[rvg]

Mortgages are always tied to the property. That's why they're called mortgages and not credits. The deal is that you shouldn't be able to transfer ownership unless the bank okays it.

Note to self: do not by any real estate in Eastern Europe.

[Montmorency]

To clarify, this is how I meant "tied":


1.a. Mortgages are tied to properties in that properties are used as collateral while they are being paid for.

1.b. Mortgages are tied to the owner in that the owner has legal-contractual responsibility for paying off the loan to the lender. If the lender sells his property while the mortgage is still outstanding, the bank collects from the proceeds however much is necessary to satisfy the mortgage. If the borrower dies, then his estate or whoever the property passes on to is henceforth responsible for the mortgage, unless there is a foreclosure following the death. See also: Due-on-sale clauses.


This is what is familiar/expected by me.


2.a. Mortgages are tied to properties in that properties are used as collateral while they are being paid for.

2.b. Mortgages are tied to the property in that if the borrower sells the property, the borrower is no longer responsible for the mortgage; the responsibility is passed on to the new owners of the property. Whoever owns a property at a given time is responsible for paying off the mortgage attached to the property.

This is what had me confused.


The deal is that you shouldn't be able to transfer ownership unless the bank okays it.

Well, :daisy: the bank for putting up an off-the-books mortgage that no one knew about until the lawyers came barging in.

[Montmorency]

Encumbrance of the immovable property by mortgage shall be subject to state registration per

the legally established procedure. In case this condition is not observed, the mortgage agreement

shall be valid, but the mortgagee’s claim shall not acquire priority against the registered rights or

claims of the other persons in the immovable property transferred on mortgage.

Yeesh.


In the event of foreclosure on the subject of mortgage by the overlying mortgagee, the

underlying mortgagee shall be also entitled to foreclose, even if the main obligation to the

underlying mortgagee has not yet matured. If the underlying mortgagee did not use this right, the

underlying mortgage shall be valid until full satisfaction of the claim of underlying mortgagee

under the main obligation, the ownership right in the subject of mortgage shall pass to the new

owner along with the encumbrance of this property with the underlying mortgage.

Could this be what's screwing my fellow?


Article 17 Grounds for Mortgage Termination

Mortgage shall be terminated in the following cases:

- termination of the main obligation;

- sale of the subject of mortgage according to this Law;

Wait a -


In the event the ownership right (the right of full economic management) in the subject of

mortgage passes from the mortgagor to another person, including heritage or legal succession,

the mortgage shall remain effective for the acquirer of relevant immovable property even in the

event he/she was not notified of the property encumbrances with the mortgage.

Oh. :disappointed:

Welp, that's enough for now. if anyone wants to dig through the legislation, here's (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebrd.com%2Fdownloads%2Flegal%2Fcore%2Fukrlom.pdf) the link.

Though why would you, you weirdo.

[Papewaio]

Olympic Games have been boycotted in the past.

The encloypedia example of propaganda would come with a picture of the Olympic flag.

My personal opinion is we should allow any country that is improving its human rights record to hold it. Those in retrograde we should consider boycotting.

I for one can happily give up my bread and circuses for improving human rights.

[HoreTore]

Marriage is torture, that's an axiom. :)

On a serious note, I don't disagree that situation is bad in that regard in Russia. What I despise, though, is selective outrage over it.

South Africa is many, many times worse than Russia when it comes LGBT rights. Where was the outrage back then?

Where the outrage was? All over the place?

[Papewaio]

Apartheid South Africa got ostracised by the Commonwealth nations, trade bans and sports bans.

Not exactly the best one to pick as your defence.

"Your honour, where was the outrage about Nazi Germany in the early 40's" - Defendant
"Have you heard of WWII?" - Judge

[Sarmatian]

Where the outrage was? All over the place?

Yeah, but no one could hear it from the vuvuzelas, right? Got ya.


Apartheid South Africa got ostracised by the Commonwealth nations, trade bans and sports bans.

Not exactly the best one to pick as your defence.

"Your honour, where was the outrage about Nazi Germany in the early 40's" - Defendant
"Have you heard of WWII?" - Judge

I'm not talking about apartheid South Africa, I'm talking about "hell on earth for lgbt" current South Africa. And that South Africa hosted the world cup, the biggest sport event in the world by far.


So, you analogy doesn't really work. To work, it would have to go something like this"

"Your honour, where was the outrage about Nazi Germany" - Defendant
"Have you heard of Marshall's Plan?" - Judge

[Ironside]

I'm not talking about apartheid South Africa, I'm talking about "hell on earth for lgbt" current South Africa. And that South Africa hosted the world cup, the biggest sport event in the world by far.


Has South Africa done any legal changes on the matter recently? Or any clearly influential inofficial changes?

Changes creates reactions, that's the way things works. If you actually want to see protests in Africa on worsening the situation for lgbt, see Uganda.

What you're saying is that if you're aren't outspoken about a nasty status quo in any place of the world, you can't complain about a country making changes for the worse, as long as they're not as nasty. That's a common and incredibly paralysing and vile argument.

To follow that logic. Even while bombed, Serbia wasn't the worst place on earth. Unless the Serbian people did a particulary complaining about those places, they had no right to complain about getting bombed.

Fine, fine to correct it, it would be any actual protester in another country that hasn't that right.

[Sarmatian]

Has South Africa done any legal changes on the matter recently? Or any clearly influential inofficial changes?

Changes creates reactions, that's the way things works. If you actually want to see protests in Africa on worsening the situation for lgbt, see Uganda.

What you're saying is that if you're aren't outspoken about a nasty status quo in any place of the world, you can't complain about a country making changes for the worse, as long as they're not as nasty. That's a common and incredibly paralysing and vile argument.

To follow that logic. Even while bombed, Serbia wasn't the worst place on earth. Unless the Serbian people did a particulary complaining about those places, they had no right to complain about getting bombed.

Fine, fine to correct it, it would be any actual protester in another country that hasn't that right.

I'm not arguing against discussion of lgbt rights in Russia, but the thread's about whether international sport events in Russia should be boycotted because of it.

The elephant in the room that everybody is trying to ignore is South Africa which hosted a world cup a few years ago. Nobody called for boycot, and mainstream media largely ignored the issue.
Just because a situation is worsening in Russia, it's still light years ahead of South Africa.

it's the double standards that bother me, simple as that.

[Husar]

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/08/the-20-most-shocking-anti-gay-news-stories-from-russia-so-far/

This link was posted here earlier and had a little surprise for me. I was surprised to read that the video in point 4 is just about one gay guy, the picture made me think otherwise. It reminded me of Lemur's thread of anti-gays who turn out to be gay after all.
I mean, it looks hilarious and I honestly thought the "sailor guys" (paratroopers, I know) were the gay ones there. :laugh4:

The South African problems were discussed here in the media throughout the World Cup btw. as are the Russian ones.
So in a way these events shine a brighter light onto the problems these countries have than is done usually. That is, even if the problems aren't the focus of media attention next to the sports coverage, they're still discussed far more than they usually are. And just the notion of maybe boycotting it, even if there is no boycott, intensifies the discussion of the problems.

Alternatively we could try to invade Russia and force them to accept gays, a historically proven method.

[Sarmatian]

It should be easier. You wouldn't have to transfer panzers south to take Kiev, you could save them all for one final push on Moskau :). Stalingrad doesn't exist anymore. Leningrad also. Actually, it would walk in the park.

[Husar]

I meant "we" as in the West. The whole Germany-Russia thing was a welcome side-joke but I have no doubt that our current army doesn't stand a chance regarding an invasion of Russia. We're constantly sizing it down ever since the Cold War ended. Did you know the Netherlands recently disbanded the last tank batallion they had?

[HoreTore]

I meant "we" as in the West. The whole Germany-Russia thing was a welcome side-joke but I have no doubt that our current army doesn't stand a chance regarding an invasion of Russia. We're constantly sizing it down ever since the Cold War ended. Did you know the Netherlands recently disbanded the last tank batallion they had?

Now that's a positive change. Bring the olympics to the Neds, I say!

[Fragony]

Now that's a positive change. Bring the olympics to the Neds, I say!

Just the Leopards, they are going to Indonesia, of course we are not unoficially putting them there because of China, and the Patriot systems that are stationed in Turkey have everything to do with protecting Turkey from Syria and absolutily nothing with Iran ;)

[Goofball]

What I would really like to see is during every podium ceremony, the gold medalist plants a solid French kiss on the silver medalist, right there in front of the cameras (sorry bronze medalist, you get left out; maybe try a little harder next time). Then the Russians would have to decide: march in the jackboots and defend their "glorious ideals" in full view of the world, or acknowledge the idiocy of their laws.

[Papewaio]

Pity it's the Winter Olympics ... The Netherlands Female Hockey team is both a very high chance of getting a gold and very good looking.

[HopAlongBunny]

I'm with Goofball on this.
I intend to watch every female podium exercise for explicit demonstrations of choice.

For Freedom!

[Sarmatian]

I'm with Goofball on this.
I intend to watch every female podium exercise for explicit demonstrations of choice.

For Freedom!

Only female, you homophobe?

[rvg]

Only female, you homophobe?
Of course, only female! Gah, just thinking about the alternative makes me wanna vomit.

[HopAlongBunny]

Only female, you homophobe?

Only so much time in the day...must prioritize! :)

[Rhyfelwyr]

Of course, only female! Gah, just thinking about the alternative makes me wanna vomit.

According to the internet, you are insecure in your sexuality. To demonstrate the security of your heterosexuality, you have to flirt with other male members and post homoerotic euphemisms at every opportunity.

[Fragony]

Pity it's the Winter Olympics ... The Netherlands Female Hockey team is both a very high chance of getting a gold and very good looking.

They haven't been the same since Fatima left https://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&q=fatima+moreira+de+melo&oq=fatim&gs_l=img.1.0.0l10.3324.5250.0.7046.5.5.0.0.0.0.168.733.0j5.5.0....0...1ac.1.26.img..0.5.728.HAiOOfn7 LZc&biw=1024&bih=644&sei=pEgfUrK3L-mV0AW8x4CYDA#biv=i%7C1%3Bd%7Coh5UBEv91Q9p6M%3A

Still the hottest team ever

[Husar]

According to the internet, you are insecure in your sexuality. To demonstrate the security of your heterosexuality, you have to flirt with other male members and post homoerotic euphemisms at every opportunity.

Oh what a cute post. :kiss2:

[Sarmatian]

Oh what a cute post. :kiss2:

That's great. Now, to balance your feminine side, you need to do something extremely masculine. Take of your socks and leave them in the middle of the living room, tell the wife to pick them up herself it they bother her, drink beer directly from the bottle, burp three times and scratch your balls.

[a completely inoffensive name]

According to the internet, you are insecure in your sexuality. To demonstrate the security of your heterosexuality, you have to flirt with other male members and post homoerotic euphemisms at every opportunity.

Oh man that reminds me, I really wish I had a man handy in the kitchen who could really teach me how to toss a salad.

[Fragony]

Oh what a cute post. :kiss2:

Hussie makes me warm and fussy

[Strike For The South]

true equality is earned, not bestowed