View Full Version : When did American society become so feminized?
By feminized, I do not mean trait genetically belonging to women, but rather the traditional western cultural view of femininity.
I recently got a new job and had to take a drug test for the first time. The clinic had a sign on the outside that said "No firearms or weapons allowed inside" or something to that extent. I never considered for a moment that that could apply to a simple pocket knife. After all, isn't a weapon something that is designed for fighting or killing rather than just something that it is possible to kill with? I could kill someone more easily with a beer bottle than with my pocket knife, but apparently my tiny pocket knife is considered a deadly weapon.
The woman asked me to empty my pockets, so I took my pocket knife, chap-stick, comb, and loose change out and set it on the table. The woman immediately got all freaked out and told me that weapons were not allowed inside the building, and that I would need to take it outside and come back without it. When I tried saying it was just a pocket knife she informed me that it was a 'deadly weapon' and was not permitted inside the building. I had to take it out to my car or they would have called the police on me.
What the heck happened to our society? I remember when I was younger everyone carried a pocket knife. I started carrying on when I was six and have always carried one since (while going to Uni, when abroad, when at work, etc, etc.). Maybe it is just something that people who don't do physical work cannot understand. A pocket knife is designed to be a tool, not a weapon. It is an invaluable tool that I use all the time for all kinds of things that I never could have foreseen me using it for.
If a weapon is defined simply as something capable of killing someone, then what the heck about keys, bottles, tire irons, pens, etc, etc?! If a cop pulls someone over and finds a tire iron in their car and they gonna charge them for possession of a deadly weapon?!
Why can't our society ever be rational about things like this? A pocket knife is no more a weapon than a steel pen is! I wonder how long it will be till they legally mandate that we need to wear diapers to prevent dangerous spills!
Rhyfelwyr
08-24-2013, 23:50
Well carrying a knife here can get you a prison sentence. Used to be you could have a blade of up to 4 inches, but not any more. A lot of the bigger shops have detectors at the entrance as well so it would be hard to get away with it.
If you have a proper reason for having one (eg, for going camping), then you should be fine. But just walking around with a pocket knife would get you in trouble.
Well carrying a knife here can get you a prison sentence. Used to be you could have a blade of up to 4 inches, but not any more. A lot of the bigger shops have detectors at the entrance as well so it would be hard to get away with it.
If you have a proper reason for having one (eg, for going camping), then you should be fine. But just walking around with a pocket knife would get you in trouble.
lol, they don't consider general utility to be a proper reason to carry one? Laws like that are such rubbish. There are so many things that are equally and more deadly that they do not ban (and realistically could not), so they are hardly going to stop anyone with bad intentions. All they do is create inconveniences for law abiding citizens.
I actually found out after I already got back home that the knife I carried in Hungary was illegal there. I guess the idea of pocket knives being illegal just never occurred to me. I was stopped by the police twice too (I was walking back to my apartment late at night), but thankfully they laughed and left me alone as soon as they found out I was American, so I was never arrested for carrying a pocket knife. :P
HoreTore
08-25-2013, 01:08
Unlike the US, most of Europe does not have a zero tolerance policy on crime, and so the police won't bother you if you break a law or two.
I also carry a pocket knive but I do see it as a weapon, and that's exactly why I have it with me. Better to have it and not having to need it than the other way around.
Papewaio
08-25-2013, 06:41
You had me at chap stick.
Definitely feminized.
HopAlongBunny
08-25-2013, 07:59
Changing demographics and expectations.
I remember a few years ago the police being called to a bar on the outskirts of Calgary. Apparently, a truck was observed parked outside a bar with an unsecured high power rifle in the gun rack. Turns out, the owner of the gun and truck was a ranch hand; unlike 90% of the trucks in town, this was an actual work truck :p; the owner had stopped for a beer and a bite after a days work and never thought about the rifle (although he did remove and was carrying the bolt) Until recently the whole thing would have been a non-event, but the increasing gentrification of the populace made a truck with a gun a hostile object. Tools needed for a job become weapons in the eyes of others.
Greyblades
08-25-2013, 11:00
I don't think feminism fully means what you think it means. Regardless, it is somewhat odd that a country that worships the gun is becoming squeamish of the knife. Here, knife crime is generally viewed as endemic, even if it's only prevalent due to the people wanting to kill others not being able to get anything more effective. Personally I find myself coming down on vuk's side on this one, unlike guns knives are versatile tools and to suppress thier utility in fear of misuse is counter productive.
In their defence, a knive is a weapon if you want to use it as one. They probably get a lot of junkies and drunks who are really unpredictable, wouldn't want to have it laying around either if I were them. If that's the protocol it's their's to decide
I say more power to the women and the effeminate!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png
If you truly want to curb violence and criminality, you should support this because obviously being feminine means being less violent.
Or do you not want to protect your family?
The Lurker Below
08-25-2013, 15:05
I keep a bunch of cheap ass pocket knives like they used to give away as free gifts back when you purchased something at monkey wards. On the rare occasion I go to the airport or stadium I carry one just so I can hand it over and have some smart ass comment implying that you aren't even a man if you don't carry a pocket knife. They are for utility purposes dammit!
Strike For The South
08-25-2013, 16:51
If you were a real man, you wouldn't bother with wage labor. LIVE OFF THE LAND
I also carry a pocket knive but I do see it as a weapon, and that's exactly why I have it with me. Better to have it and not having to need it than the other way around.
Just because you carry one as a weapon does not make pocket knives weapons. People use beer bottles as weapons. I used to carry a tire knocker under my winter coat for self-defense, but that doesn't mean tire knockers are weapons. If something was designed as a weapon or being used as a weapon, then it is a weapon. But that doesn't make the tire knocker the trucker keeps with him, or the pocket knife I carry around weapons. All it means is that your pocket knife and my tire knocker are weapons.
Why should I be told I can't carry an extremely useful tool with me because some bloke somewhere likes to carry one as a weapon? (a pocket knife is really a pretty crappy weapon anyway, and I would seriously advice against it for self-defense. A pocket knife makes a fight deadly, but unlike a gun it is no decisive and may much more easily be used against you. Legally and practically speaking a pocket knife is a horrid weapon for self-defense.)
You had me at chap stick.
Definitely feminized.
Heaven knows, really men just let their lips dry out till they crack and bleed! lol Nearly everyone I know carries chapstick. When you like in a place as cold as Wisconsin and your heat is constantly dehydrating you in your car or house, it is hard to get by without some kind of lip balm.
I say more power to the women and the effeminate!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png
If you truly want to curb violence and criminality, you should support this because obviously being feminine means being less violent.
Or do you not want to protect your family?
There are so many things wrong with that argument...where to start...
Tell you what Husar, the incarceration rate of babies and the infirm is almost nothing. Should we all have our limbs remove to prevent crime? lol
If you were a real man, you wouldn't bother with wage labor. LIVE OFF THE LAND
I think you would find that a knife would be essential for that.
HoreTore
08-25-2013, 17:26
Heaven knows, really men just let their lips dry out till they crack and bleed! lol Nearly everyone I know carries chapstick. When you like in a place as cold as Wisconsin and your heat is constantly dehydrating you in your car or house, it is hard to get by without some kind of lip balm.
Norway is much colder.
We vikings get by without makeup. You woman, you.
EDIT: And it's summer now.... Double-woman.
Ironside
08-25-2013, 17:26
I say more power to the women and the effeminate!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/U.S._incarceration_rates_1925_onwards.png
If you truly want to curb violence and criminality, you should support this because obviously being feminine means being less violent.
Or do you not want to protect your family?
I wonder if not the last sentence has most relevance, even if you point out that feminine isn't normally used the way Vuk uses it (yes it actually has definitions). It has probably more to do with a culture of fear, rather than feminisation (the most masculine rich nations are Japan and South Korea, not exactly known for their liberal gun laws or knife carrying normal citizens).
The stranger is scary, violent, child molesting, school shooting, drug high, etc, etc, so of course he's going to be dangerous if he carries a potential weapon.
There are so many things wrong with that argument...where to start...
Tell you what Husar, the incarceration rate of babies and the infirm is almost nothing. Should we all have our limbs remove to prevent crime? lol
Jesus already said we should be more like children to make the world a better place so you don't really have an argument there.
The last point is even ridiculous since I was talking about being feminine and you extrapolate that to removing limbs. What does removing limbs have to do with being feminine? It's not even like we need to change anything if you think society is diverging towards femininity all by itself anyway. Removing the limbs is quite a big and drastic change in comparison.
The change towards a more feminine society is a good one, especially considering that we've had extremely male societies for thousands of years, so we have plenty of compensation to do.
Norway is much colder.
We vikings get by without makeup. You woman, you.
EDIT: And it's summer now.... Double-woman.
It is not make-up, it is moisturizer. You Vikings can swim in arctic waters and wrestle polar bears, so it is hardly fair to use you as a standard.
I wonder if not the last sentence has most relevance, even if you point out that feminine isn't normally used the way Vuk uses it (yes it actually has definitions). It has probably more to do with a culture of fear, rather than feminisation (the most masculine rich nations are Japan and South Korea, not exactly known for their liberal gun laws or knife carrying normal citizens).
The stranger is scary, violent, child molesting, school shooting, drug high, etc, etc, so of course he's going to be dangerous if he carries a potential weapon.
I said in my first post that I was referring not to female, but to the traditional meaning of 'feminine' behavior in western society. Fear of strangers and weapons usually went along with that. And sorry, but Japan and South Korea are amongst the most feminine nations on earth. They may treat women poorly, but that is not exactly masculine. The dudes in those countries style themselves, dress, and act extremely effeminately by Western (esp US) standards.
Jesus already said we should be more like children to make the world a better place so you don't really have an argument there.
The last point is even ridiculous since I was talking about being feminine and you extrapolate that to removing limbs. What does removing limbs have to do with being feminine? It's not even like we need to change anything if you think society is diverging towards femininity all by itself anyway. Removing the limbs is quite a big and drastic change in comparison.
My point is that just because a certain demographic is less likely to commit crime, that doesn't mean we should model our society after that demographic in order to reduce crime. There are a lot more factors at play.
The change towards a more feminine society is a good one, especially considering that we've had extremely male societies for thousands of years, so we have plenty of compensation to do.
Why? Because something was one way for a while, that means we have to bring it in the other direction? Again, to use an absurd example, we have always viewed disease as something to be avoided, that doesn't mean that we need to compensate now by embracing disease and aiding its spread (which I guess we do by embracing the homosexual and swinger cultures, lol :P).
'Masculine' behavior has always been defined as along terms of self-protection, protection of your family, and supplying for the needs of your family. Maybe instead of moving away from that we should disassociate it with male genitals and people of both sexes should embrace it.
HoreTore
08-25-2013, 20:56
Moisturizer = makeup. I keep one in a drawer with my other womanly stuff(painkillers, thermometer, cough syrup, cigarettes, etc) for that one day of the year I use it. I haven't carried it around since I was a kid, and can't really recall any male friends who do that.... But it's many months and lots of alcohol since winter, so my memory might be a bit shaky on that.
Anyway, on to the more relevant stuff:
Ref. Japan - Are you suggesting that the Samurai warrior of old who chopped the head off 5 men before lunch is feminine because he spent the evening braiding the hair of his brother-in-arms? I find that curios.
Also remember that the place in western society where most of the man-on-man nonsexual contact occurs is that most masculine of places - the army.
HoreTore
08-25-2013, 21:30
Actually, I'm pretty sure its Penn State.
That's just because you're in denial, soldier boy... But remember that no amount of therapy can erase what you experienced that night in the tent!!
HoreTore
08-25-2013, 21:50
Bah. I've heard the statistics thrown around but honestly, having served five years in line units as a lower enlisted all over the Army, I never once saw Man on Man sexual assault. I saw lots of false Male on Female reporting, I saw lots of legitimate Male on Female reporting, I even heard of a female CO who was putting the moves on her minions--but I never even heard of Male on Male going on. The way the media goes on about it, you'd think it would be a big visible problem, but honestly the biggest problem I saw in the Army was drug abuse (to include Alcohol abuse, which is absolutely rampant). Where's the coverage on that?
I'm not talking a little bit of weed here either, I'm talking Cocaine, Meth, Crack, Ecstasy, and other hard drugs that are out of your system fast. I saw a few stoners, but most got caught because you get piss-tested at least every 2 weeks in most units I was in. Every single unit I was in had a few Coke-heads. My first unit was so bad with it that we were nick-named the Delta Dimebags, and we had crack heads in that unit. Functional crack-heads. And they went to Iraq with us.
How did you miss the word nonsexual I wrote before "contact"?
I'm not talking about sex or rape, I'm talking about consensual male-on-male cuddling. The kind of touches your mom used to give you, now given by your fellow man.
Rhyfelwyr
08-25-2013, 22:07
It is not make-up, it is moisturizer.
You are not helping yourself here...
Papewaio
08-26-2013, 00:23
If I want Chapstick on my lips I kiss my wife.
Maybe it is because I have a Swedish surname and some tiny genetic advantage. But I'm not a great fan of cold weather in my old age.
Again, to use an absurd example, we have always viewed disease as something to be avoided, that doesn't mean that we need to compensate now by embracing disease and aiding its spread (which I guess we do by embracing the homosexual and swinger cultures, lol :P).
Great point, did you tell your wife that her behavior is comparable to a disease, too?
'Masculine' behavior has always been defined as along terms of self-protection, protection of your family, and supplying for the needs of your family. Maybe instead of moving away from that we should disassociate it with male genitals and people of both sexes should embrace it.
Yes, because everybody loved muscular women the last time we discussed the topic, right?
Also this protection is only required because of other men. Tell me how often men historicall needed their strength to protect their family from women. The truth is they had to protect their families from other strong men or died trying. Strength is easily abused just like other forms of power.
a completely inoffensive name
08-26-2013, 01:00
I was going to type up a large rebuttal but my elbows are so dry and irritating and I ran out of my shea cocoa butter.
I gotta head to the salon and get myself a FHN (face, head, nails) tune up.
PanzerJaeger
08-26-2013, 02:04
This thread is actually about the legal concept of liability and how distorted it has become. That's a discussion worth having.
Ironside
08-26-2013, 09:55
I said in my first post that I was referring not to female, but to the traditional meaning of 'feminine' behavior in western society. Fear of strangers and weapons usually went along with that. And sorry, but Japan and South Korea are amongst the most feminine nations on earth. They may treat women poorly, but that is not exactly masculine. The dudes in those countries style themselves, dress, and act extremely effeminately by Western (esp US) standards.
Nah, that has to do with 2 things. The first is that the US completely reject the cute boy concept officially. Possibly of fear of the gay (oh my God, I found that guy slightly attractive, that can totally not happen).
The thing is that the cute boy is getting more girls than the muscle man, see for example the boy band persona. Actually getting the girl counts as masculine I think?
Second, historically women couldn't perform on stage, so men had to do drag queen. This survived partically into today, making it socially accepted to act and dress very feminine on stage and it's also been used as a form of rebellion (the satanic guy dresses in girl clothes there to be as shocking). So that media has a lot of girlish stuff, while it very low outside that media.
Now I might be overreaching on how common the term is, but Hofstede uses the terms like this:
Masculine cultures' values are competitiveness, assertiveness, materialism, ambition and power, whereas feminine cultures place more value on relationships and quality of life. In masculine cultures, the differences between gender roles are more dramatic and less fluid than in feminine cultures where men and women have the same values emphasizing modesty and caring.
And his studies and world values survey (they uses different meassurements) are the 2 big ones when it comes to comparing world values.
This thread is actually about the legal concept of liability and how distorted it has become. That's a discussion worth having.
It's certainly linked to it. But the general safety hysteria is a larger trend. You can see it here in Sweden as well here and there. Media is the spreading vector, but I'm not sure if it originates there and modern media is simply scarier or if it's another driving factor working.
Why can't our society ever be rational about things like this? A pocket knife is no more a weapon than a steel pen is! I wonder how long it will be till they legally mandate that we need to wear diapers to prevent dangerous spills!
Not so much feminized as dumb, scared, sheep who don't know what hard work or thinking for yourself looks like. :yes:
Nah, that has to do with 2 things. The first is that the US completely reject the cute boy concept officially. Possibly of fear of the gay (oh my God, I found that guy slightly attractive, that can totally not happen).
The thing is that the cute boy is getting more girls than the muscle man, see for example the boy band persona. Actually getting the girl counts as masculine I think?
Second, historically women couldn't perform on stage, so men had to do drag queen. This survived partically into today, making it socially accepted to act and dress very feminine on stage and it's also been used as a form of rebellion (the satanic guy dresses in girl clothes there to be as shocking). So that media has a lot of girlish stuff, while it very low outside that media.
Now I might be overreaching on how common the term is, but Hofstede uses the terms like this:
Masculine cultures' values are competitiveness, assertiveness, materialism, ambition and power, whereas feminine cultures place more value on relationships and quality of life. In masculine cultures, the differences between gender roles are more dramatic and less fluid than in feminine cultures where men and women have the same values emphasizing modesty and caring.
And his studies and world values survey (they uses different meassurements) are the 2 big ones when it comes to comparing world values.
It's certainly linked to it. But the general safety hysteria is a larger trend. You can see it here in Sweden as well here and there. Media is the spreading vector, but I'm not sure if it originates there and modern media is simply scarier or if it's another driving factor working.
Yes, the fact that women in many modern societies are preferring 'cute boys' over real men proves exactly how feminine society has become. No matter how feminine men become, women are still going to mostly prefer men over other women. That doesn't make the feminine men who get women hyper-masculine.
The Hofstede definition you posted is extremely flawed at best, and does not mesh with the common understanding of the word 'masculine'.
You all got it wrong. Just be kind.
Yes, the fact that women in many modern societies are preferring 'cute boys' over real men proves exactly how feminine society has become...
If that's the criteria, then the worst days are behind us. Don't you remember the '80s?
You are not helping yourself here...
You just don't have enough hair on your chest to understand that real men use chapstick. That is ok though, I forgive you.
Great point, did you tell your wife that her behavior is comparable to a disease, too?
Comparing one thing to another does not mean that you think they are at all similar. In fact, one of the points here was to show just the opposite.
You did not address the major point I made though that just because something has been slanted one way in the past does not mean that it needs to be slanted in the other direction now.
In fact, I reject the notion that the traditional meaning of 'femininity' is at all 'natural' to the female sex. It is the result of oppression and repression, and is not at all healthy for society and should be rejected by both sexes.
Yes, because everybody loved muscular women the last time we discussed the topic, right?
Also this protection is only required because of other men. Tell me how often men historicall needed their strength to protect their family from women. The truth is they had to protect their families from other strong men or died trying. Strength is easily abused just like other forms of power.
Who is talking about muscular women? We are talking about attitude and belief systems, not muscles.
And no, this protection is not required only because of other men. Internally, if you had a society of just women, you would an enormous amount of woman on woman crime. The major reason you have so little now is A) it is a lot harder for a woman to mug a man than another woman and B) because most women have protection from some sort of men (whether that is a family member, boyfriend, the police, or just a bystander). If there were no men in a society, you would see woman on woman crime sky-rocket.
You don't see a lot more crime amongst men because they act in a masculine manner. You see more crime among men because they are more capable of committing crimes and think they are more able to get away with them.
Look at the single most hyper feminine country in the world, South Korea that has been stripped of every vestige of masculinity and you will find they have double the violent crime rate that the United States does.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/85740/skorean-violent-crime-rate-exceeds-united-states/
And as far as protecting a country or your family from other strong men, that is unavoidable. There will always be strong men inside and esp outside even the most feminine society, and the more feminine your society is, the more you will be sheep to the wolves.
Again though, you are associated violent criminals with physical strength with the western idea of masculinity. That is a fallacy. The correlation between sex and these behaviors is the result of society, and are not genetically determined. It is only a myth that 'masculinity' is a thing of men. It is an independent and responsible way of thinking and acting that historically been associated with one sex, but is ideal for both. Femininity is a passive, dependent way of thinking that looks to make other people or institutions your protector and provider, and is the result of millennia of oppression. It is not at all a healthy world view for men or women. Unfortunately it is the way modern societies are going...
If that's the criteria, then the worst days are behind us. Don't you remember the '80s?
Ever hear of Justin Beiber? lol
You are right though of course, that thankfully in many parts of this country (mine being one of them...thank goodness) that is not true. But esp in very feminine societies such as Japan, SK, and some European countries that is the reality. I'm lucky enough to live in a more 'traditional', 'masculine', rural area where women still prefer real men. In places like Japan though, overwhelmingly women think that men having any kind of muscle is barbaric and unattractive.
ReluctantSamurai
08-26-2013, 18:24
Raw justice:
http://rawjustice.com/2010/09/13/12-most-unusual-murder-weapons-used-in-real-life/
So the next time you Shogun fanatics are heading downtown after a heated session of gaming........leave the katana in the car, please!~D
....and make sure granny has had her meds before showing up for the holiday dinner......
Ironside
08-26-2013, 18:53
Yes, the fact that women in many modern societies are preferring 'cute boys' over real men proves exactly how feminine society has become. No matter how feminine men become, women are still going to mostly prefer men over other women. That doesn't make the feminine men who get women hyper-masculine.
Yes they are going to prefer men. I did not know that you considered Leonardo di Caprio, Matt Damon, Brad Pitt girly. They still started their careers as cute boys (cute is severly associated with youth for both genders btw) and their movie star predessors are quite a bit older. For overkill, the "latin lover" Rudolph Valentino born 1895 actually does look quite a bit feminine (he's the first really big movie star).
But I mean you remember the old days, before preferring 'cute boys' over real men was the standard. Before the feminine society sneaked in. I must say that I'm honoured that we have such venerable members on this forum. Is it the moisturizer that keeps you so fresh?
The Hofstede definition you posted is extremely flawed at best, and does not mesh with the common understanding of the word 'masculine'.
The common understanding that only you are fully following? Really, the concepts have a very hard time to survive moving outside your country because a lot of it are constructs. So trying to find a more universial terms are going to make them vague.
The common understanding that only you are fully following? Really, the concepts have a very hard time to survive moving outside your country because a lot of it are constructs. So trying to find a more universial terms are going to make them vague.
There is no universal definition. Each definition is unique to locale and culture. When you try to make a definition that fits all, it contradicts most and does not represent any.
Possibly of fear of the gay (oh my God, I found that guy slightly attractive, that can totally not happen).
lmao mate! Sorry, but if you find guys attractive, then you are at least bi.
Papewaio
08-26-2013, 23:23
Yes they are going to prefer men. I did not know that you considered Leonardo di Caprio, Matt Damon, Brad Pitt girly. They still started their careers as cute boys (cute is severly associated with youth for both genders btw) and their movie star predessors are quite a bit older. For overkill, the "latin lover" Rudolph Valentino born 1895 actually does look quite a bit feminine (he's the first really big movie star).
Plenty of suspicions about Valentino.
Montmorency
08-27-2013, 00:13
lmao mate! Sorry, but if you find guys attractive, then you are at least bi.
There's a difference between considering another man handsome or 'good-looking' and considering him as a desirable sexual partner.
I seriously doubt you are overcome with nausea or disgust, or even total ambivalence, whenever you look at any other male's face.
I'm sure you find some men better-looking than others. From there, it isn't much of a leap to judge one man or another particularly good-looking.
Similarly, it is not unusual for a straight male to consider some females to be 'good-looking', even if not sexually attractive or desirable.
Get it?
HoreTore
08-27-2013, 00:25
lmao mate! Sorry, but if you find guys attractive, then you are at least bi.
The gay is strong in this one, Obi-Wan.
There's a difference between considering another man handsome or 'good-looking' and considering him as a desirable sexual partner.
I seriously doubt you are overcome with nausea or disgust, or even total ambivalence, whenever you look at any other male's face.
I'm sure you find some men better-looking than others. From there, it isn't much of a leap to judge one man or another particularly good-looking.
Similarly, it is not unusual for a straight male to consider some females to be 'good-looking', even if not sexually attractive or desirable.
Get it?
There is a difference between thinking something is good looking and being attracted toward it. Dogs can be handsome, but that doesn't make them attractive. Horses can look noble and majestic, but that doesn't mean you are attracted to them. Likewise you can see and dude and recognize that he is handsome (like what people think when they look at me :beam:) without being attracted to him. If you are attracted toward another dude, then you are gay. Period.
Papewaio
08-27-2013, 02:26
Anyhow what one considers gender roles is heavily dependent on the family/community/country one grows up in.
One mans foppish trait is another ones toolset is another mans weapon.
a completely inoffensive name
08-27-2013, 02:51
There is a difference between thinking something is good looking and being attracted toward it. Dogs can be handsome, but that doesn't make them attractive. Horses can look noble and majestic, but that doesn't mean you are attracted to them. Likewise you can see and dude and recognize that he is handsome (like what people think when they look at me :beam:) without being attracted to him. If you are attracted toward another dude, then you are gay. Period.
Difference between mental attraction and physical attraction dude.
Just because certain male members on this board could coax drunk ACIN into a night of passion doesn't make me gay. If I wanted to commit to a relationship and found myself attracted to the individuals personality despite differing political, religious views, THEN I would be gay. But I am not the latter. So I'm not gay.
It isn't really gay if it's your clone
Ironside
08-27-2013, 09:54
There is no universal definition. Each definition is unique to locale and culture. When you try to make a definition that fits all, it contradicts most and does not represent any.
Ever hear of Justin Beiber? lol
You are right though of course, that thankfully in many parts of this country (mine being one of them...thank goodness) that is not true. But esp in very feminine societies such as Japan, SK, and some European countries that is the reality. I'm lucky enough to live in a more 'traditional', 'masculine', rural area where women still prefer real men. In places like Japan though, overwhelmingly women think that men having any kind of muscle is barbaric and unattractive.
Ahem. Which was a bit of my point of you using a very encompassing term to describe a local phenomena.
lmao mate! Sorry, but if you find guys attractive, then you are at least bi.
Witch are a demonstration of the "fear of the gay" I mentioned. From what you say, if you look at a hot drag queen thinking it's a girl, get attracted to him and then told it's a guy, then you're gay, since you did find a guy attractive. For a less gotcha version, you've got androgynous people, looking girly on one picture and boyish on the next. Are you gay if you find those attractive?
Now personally, it's quite a bit of downer if it turns out to be a guy, even if it's only picture, putting me fairly far into the hetrosexual camp.
But if you're running on that very harsh measurements (like you comparing human beauty to animal beauty or landscape beauty for that matter) and don't want to see yourself as gay in any way (since you don't feel like you are one, or are in denial about it), you then need to make sure to eliminate anything even close to be gender confusing and therefore pushing the muscular "super manly man".
Now, I don't know how driving that one is, but the muscle mountain is touted more nowadays than it used to for some reason.
I am not attracted to guys, but I can see it when a guy is handsome. Friend of mine is rediculously pretty, the attention he gets from women drives him nuts, not just him, us as well. We jokingly call him the Gebronste Adonis, hinting at his perfectly tanned skin. Poor guy has no place to hide.
This thread is actually about the legal concept of liability and how distorted it has become. That's a discussion worth having.
That's an interesting point.
Why do companies have such regulations? Why do you sometimes read the most absurd things in manuals?
Could it have something to do with silly lawsuits and deranged judges making the most weird judgements?
Has there perhaps been a precedent of a company being liable because one of their co-workers stabbed somebody while the company didn't have a policy that said you need to keep knives out of the building?
Maybe it is not feminization that caused this company to decide to implement such a silly rule. Maybe, there's just something wrong with your legal system?
HoreTore
08-27-2013, 11:35
I don't think you can blame the extreme growth in company legal departments to customers alone. I'd say the majority comes from the business culture of different companies trying to screw each other over all the time, using the law as a weapon.
That's an interesting point.
Why do companies have such regulations? Why do you sometimes read the most absurd things in manuals?
Could it have something to do with silly lawsuits and deranged judges making the most weird judgements?
Has there perhaps been a precedent of a company being liable because one of their co-workers stabbed somebody while the company didn't have a policy that said you need to keep knives out of the building?
Maybe it is not feminization that caused this company to decide to implement such a silly rule. Maybe, there's just something wrong with your legal system?
It's because people have become more selfish and tend to turn more and more things into what they perceive as their rights.
As a result, low wage employees turn into the personal slaves of the customers, marriages fail because people can't be bothered to find any fault with themselves, compromise goes out of the window everywhere and kids are being taught they should always only look out for themselves because others will do the same and those who don't will go under. The problem is that society doesn't work that way. If everybody behaves like a masculine man and ruthlessly takes what he or she wants, it only fosters conflict. The only thing that prevents it from being too obvious is that people are incredibly fake and hide their real intentions all too often.
There's less voluntary cooperation and more rivalry and it's promoted by the few who profit from it and supported by those who believe they are masculine winners.
It's because people have become more selfish and tend to turn more and more things into what they perceive as their rights.
As a result, low wage employees turn into the personal slaves of the customers, marriages fail because people can't be bothered to find any fault with themselves, compromise goes out of the window everywhere and kids are being taught they should always only look out for themselves because others will do the same and those who don't will go under. The problem is that society doesn't work that way. If everybody behaves like a masculine man and ruthlessly takes what he or she wants, it only fosters conflict. The only thing that prevents it from being too obvious is that people are incredibly fake and hide their real intentions all too often.
There's less voluntary cooperation and more rivalry and it's promoted by the few who profit from it and supported by those who believe they are masculine winners.
So, you're saying the American society is a very masculine one?
This either means you are very girly or Vuk is a super masculine male.
Anyway, I'm glad you're not blaming the lawyers.
ReluctantSamurai
08-27-2013, 13:39
There's less voluntary cooperation and more rivalry and it's promoted by the few who profit from it and supported by those who believe they are masculine winners.
The current American Congress is a perfect example of this.......
It's because people have become more selfish and tend to turn more and more things into what they perceive as their rights.
As a result, low wage employees turn into the personal slaves of the customers, marriages fail because people can't be bothered to find any fault with themselves, compromise goes out of the window everywhere and kids are being taught they should always only look out for themselves because others will do the same and those who don't will go under. The problem is that society doesn't work that way. If everybody behaves like a masculine man and ruthlessly takes what he or she wants, it only fosters conflict. The only thing that prevents it from being too obvious is that people are incredibly fake and hide their real intentions all too often.
There's less voluntary cooperation and more rivalry and it's promoted by the few who profit from it and supported by those who believe they are masculine winners.
You basically describe highschool girl rivalry and then call it masculine! lol
Selfish behavior is unfortunately becoming more common, but it is neither masculine nor feminine. Currently it is worse amongst women (esp young ones) than men, but it has not always been that way and now men seem to be catching up. Selfishness has always existed in cultures most masculine and feminine. About your post early though about how men cause the violence in society and how there would be none if women ruled: here is a good example that humans are cruel and violent, regardless of sex. (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/geekquinox/unearthed-peruvian-tomb-confirms-women-ruled-over-brutal-160013738.html)
EDIT: In fact mate, selfish behavior is contrary to both traditional ideas of masculinity and femininity! Maybe not in our growing gang culture, but at least where I live ideas of masculinity are tied up in ideas of chivalry, and femininity in defined very much in terms of lady-like behavior. Both discourage the type of behavior you are talking about, which has always ran contrary to the ideals of gender expectations.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-27-2013, 14:57
lol, they don't consider general utility to be a proper reason to carry one? Laws like that are such rubbish. There are so many things that are equally and more deadly that they do not ban (and realistically could not), so they are hardly going to stop anyone with bad intentions. All they do is create inconveniences for law abiding citizens.
I actually found out after I already got back home that the knife I carried in Hungary was illegal there. I guess the idea of pocket knives being illegal just never occurred to me. I was stopped by the police twice too (I was walking back to my apartment late at night), but thankfully they laughed and left me alone as soon as they found out I was American, so I was never arrested for carrying a pocket knife. :P
I used to carry a knife on the farm - since I started living in the city the only bits I use are the screwdriver and the bottle opener, and that's inside the house.
This is, general utility is a valid reason, but in the age where libraries will issue you a pen or a pencil sharpener, you almost never need one.
I used to carry a knife on the farm - since I started living in the city the only bits I use are the screwdriver and the bottle opener, and that's inside the house.
This is, general utility is a valid reason, but in the age where libraries will issue you a pen or a pencil sharpener, you almost never need one.
Sure you still do. Opening plastic packages, cutting tape, cutting boxes, cutting loose threads off your clothing, prying stuff (sure, it is not good for your knife, but some times you have no alternative), etc, etc. You would not believe the amount of times I have needed a knife for things I never could have predicted I would use a pocket knife for. It is like a flash-light (something I always keep on my belt except when I am going to job interviews), one of those essential things that even if you use rarely you need there for those important times when nothing else will suffice.
Montmorency
08-27-2013, 16:06
All this could also have everything to do with the urbanization of society - the "fear", the "feminization", the compartmentalization of tool use...
All this could also have everything to do with the urbanization of society - the "fear", the "feminization", the compartmentalization of tool use...
I don't know. Two of my brothers are currently working in a big cheese plant as they are going back to school for a second major, and they carry a folding knife and two multi-tools with them everywhere (including at work where they have had need of them). You need tools like that whether working on a farm or in a factory.
Montmorency
08-27-2013, 16:19
Beyond industry...
Mate, I used my folding knife all the time when I was working at Arbys to open packages, break-down boxes, etc.
It is a pretty useful tool for tons of different jobs and just for everyday life when not on the job.
Montmorency
08-27-2013, 16:29
Using tools on the job and carrying the same around in public - there's a difference, no? Do you see it?
Fisherking
08-27-2013, 16:37
Using tools on the job and carrying the same around in public - there's a difference, no? Do you see it?
Oh? Does that mean that people stop carrying Lethermans and such now? Just about anyone who works with their hands is usually not without one, on the job or at home.
Montmorency
08-27-2013, 16:44
on the job or at home.
Maybe I'm not being clear:
*Most people in contemporary urban societies do not need to make use of such tools
*Those that do compartmentalize their use to work situations
*Hobbyists who use such tools confine their use to that specific context
*Consumers out about the town simply do not ever carry such tools and have no expectation of others carrying them in their environment
*Front-end/customer service workers have as their primary - and usually only - tool the computer
What;s so hard to get about this?
Fisherking
08-27-2013, 16:49
Maybe I'm not being clear:
*Most people in contemporary urban societies do not need to make use of such tools
*Those that do compartmentalize their use to work situations
*Hobbyists who use such tools confine their use to that specific context
*Consumers out about the town simply do not ever carry such tools and have no expectation of others carrying them in their environment
*Front-end/customer service workers have as their primary - and usually only - tool the computer
What;s so hard to get about this?
Urban society perhaps but most people don’t work white collar urban jobs. They live in suburbs and get their hands dirty. Even nerdy engineers carry such tools in case they need to fix something.
Go out and see some fly-over country.
Montmorency
08-27-2013, 16:55
Even nerdy engineers carry such tools in case they need to fix something.
*Most people in contemporary urban societies do not need to make use of such tools
*Those that do compartmentalize their use to work situations
They live in suburbs and get their hands dirty.
Listen, seeing a plumber walking around with their tool-kit is taken by the observer as part of the plumber's job. It's analogous to a man in a business suit carrying a briefcase.
Now, if the plumber were then asked if they were currently heading to a job/assignment, and they responded, "No", that would be taken as bizarre.
Just as bizarre as a businessman-by-day going out for (non-business related) dinner with briefcase in hand.
Fisherking
08-27-2013, 17:08
I think you are a little hide-bound in your viewpoint. Obviously you live in a large urban center, but most people do not.
What you may think of as normal is actually a narrow view. Most men do ware such out to dinner, mostly because their wife would object, but they would come to the dinner table at home with such, and likely ware it shopping or around town.
Speaking of bizarre, why don’t you go to a Wallmart and report back on what you have seen. ;)
Montmorency
08-27-2013, 17:27
Half the US lives in cities of more than 1 million inhabitants...
In Bulgaria the law is the most retarded thing. We can't carry blades longer than 20 cm., you need a license to carry even a bb gun, you can't carry semi auto or full auto.. Oh but it gets better.
Say a guy picks a fight with you. Say he is an 80 kg. boxer. You pull a knife on him and stick him? You are at fault, you pay him damage and may eve get locekd up. You are required by law to answer his fists with your fists, never mind that he will punch your teeth in and you will have to spend 5000 euro to fix them.
Say some junkie pulls a knife on you in the street and wants you wallet. You can't shoot him. No, not even in the leg or arm. You'd be at fault and you'd get your license revoked and will have to pay him. Also you'll do several years jail time.
Say you're a watchman in a watermelon patch and a bunch of gypsies come with 4-5 horse drawn carts. They jump off, wielding axes and 30 cm. knives, threatening you. You shoot ONE in the leg with a legally owned rifle. You are guarding someone's private property, at night. Guess what happens - that's right. You pay the thief you shot a hefty reparation, and you go to jail.
Self defense and private property laws are a joke here. It's even funnier that the people whom you'd want to have a gun AGAINST are either the roma minority who are protected by the reverse-discrimination in the government and by a bunch of NPOs and Soros-es, or they are thugs and mobsters who own automatic weapons illegally and the police don't do anything against them. Sucks to be a regular citizen here.
Not being allowed to carry a knive of 20 cm doesn't sound that odd to me really, what purpose could it have other than hurting someone much more than you should want to
Fisherking
08-27-2013, 18:23
Half the US lives in cities of more than 1 million inhabitants...
Sure, but it does not make what you describe as typical. Not all cities over a million are the same.
What is typical for the North East is not typical for the rest of the county. Many of those urban centers reach a million because they incorporate large suburban areas. San Antonio is not Boston. The norms are much different. Also as you say half live there and half do not. Again, different values and norms.
Some of what Vuk is experiencing is a culture clash. He grew up in a rural setting on a farm. The country is growing more urban, and much more risk adverse, to the point of idiocy actually.
I suggest he move west, not to the coast, but further west at any rate.
I almost always have a pocket knife with me. Never used it on people even when attacked. But it is useful for a whole lot of things. Also it's more than knives, there's can openers on it, a screwdriver, pincet,... All which have been useful outside my home.
About your post early though about how men cause the violence in society and how there would be none if women ruled: here is a good example that humans are cruel and violent, regardless of sex. (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/geekquinox/unearthed-peruvian-tomb-confirms-women-ruled-over-brutal-160013738.html)
No, it's just a good point about the masculine women you're asking for. As you said yourself, just because they were women there is no reason to assume they were actually feminine and not masculine according to the definition of these words.
The high school girl rivalries are only happening because the girls are raised with the same masculine values as the boys, they learn from a young age that they have to take what they can get and this leads to the struggles they have among eachother. Truly feminine girls would share the values of cooperation, sharing and the diplomatic solving of conflicts. A masculine culture that promotes solving conflicts through power gains simply corrupts the nature of these girls.
Montmorency
08-27-2013, 19:29
Also as you say half live there and half do not.
But 80% overall live in urban areas. Which is the point - in urban areas, carrying around tools common in rural areas is, well, uncommon.
The denser the city, the more surprising it seems.
But 80% overall live in urban areas. Which is the point - in urban areas, carrying around tools common in rural areas is, well, uncommon.
The denser the city, the more surprising it seems.
Seeing a woman in a Hijab is surprising where I come from. Does that mean we should infringe on her freedom to wear one when she goes shopping?
In Bulgaria the law is the most retarded thing. We can't carry blades longer than 20 cm., you need a license to carry even a bb gun, you can't carry semi auto or full auto.. Oh but it gets better.
Say a guy picks a fight with you. Say he is an 80 kg. boxer. You pull a knife on him and stick him? You are at fault, you pay him damage and may eve get locekd up. You are required by law to answer his fists with your fists, never mind that he will punch your teeth in and you will have to spend 5000 euro to fix them.
Say some junkie pulls a knife on you in the street and wants you wallet. You can't shoot him. No, not even in the leg or arm. You'd be at fault and you'd get your license revoked and will have to pay him. Also you'll do several years jail time.
Say you're a watchman in a watermelon patch and a bunch of gypsies come with 4-5 horse drawn carts. They jump off, wielding axes and 30 cm. knives, threatening you. You shoot ONE in the leg with a legally owned rifle. You are guarding someone's private property, at night. Guess what happens - that's right. You pay the thief you shot a hefty reparation, and you go to jail.
Self defense and private property laws are a joke here. It's even funnier that the people whom you'd want to have a gun AGAINST are either the roma minority who are protected by the reverse-discrimination in the government and by a bunch of NPOs and Soros-es, or they are thugs and mobsters who own automatic weapons illegally and the police don't do anything against them. Sucks to be a regular citizen here.
Now you know what conservatives are afraid America will turn into. That really sucks.
Not being allowed to carry a knive of 20 cm doesn't sound that odd to me really, what purpose could it have other than hurting someone much more than you should want to
First of all, you should not have a knife to hurt someone. If you have a knife to defend yourself, then its purpose is to stop someone, and that is binary. Either it is big enough or it isn't. There is no such thing as a knife being able to stop someone too much!
I just want to say here and now that I it is my decided opinion that a knife is NOT a suitable self-defense weapon in most modern countries (including the US), but if you are using it for one then it has two major functions: 1) intimidation and 2) incapacitation.
As far as intimidation goes, the bigger the better. If a larger knife intimidates an opponent to the point where they do not attack you, then your larger knife just stopped someone from getting hurt.
As far as incapacitation goes, giving someone a little cut is not going to stop them. You incapacitate them by '*#&$@ing them up'. If you do not '*#&$@ them up', then your knife is not going to help you. You either make them lose so much blood they go into shock or die, or you cut something they need to physically function in their attack. Anything short of that and your knife is not going to help you incapacitate them. If the point of the knife is self-defense, than the larger the better, because almost incapacitating someone does you no good.
That said, a knife, and esp a folding pocket knife is probably the worst possible choice for self-defense.
First of all, when you are being attacked, what are you gonna do? Dig through your pocket, clumsily pull it out and try to unfold it while the other bloke politely stands to the side and lets you? With a fixed blade, an automatic in a holster or holding pocket, or with a gun you can at least get your crap out fast, but not with a folding pocket knife.
Second of all, carrying any weapon is largely ineffective unless you practice retrieving it as fast as possible many, many, many times. Do you practice with your pocket knife? If you did you would probably realize how clumsy and ill-suited it is for self-defense.
The second reasons knives are horrible self-defense weapons is because you have to actually really know what you are doing with it or you will most likely only get yourself killed against an armed opponent.
Also, a gun has major intimidation, a knife does not.
Add on to that that you pulling the knife means that they can argue that you made a non-lethal situation lethal. Can you prove that pulled his weapon first? It won't look good in court even if you live when you pull a knife out stab some dude in the guts. In people's minds shooting is much more clean cut, but knives are messy and dirty and the bad guys carry them. You using one automatically makes people think of you as a bad guy.
Long story short, don't use a knife for self-defense. If you do, then don't use a folding knife. If you do use a folding knife though, keep it somewhere other than your pockets. If you do keep it in your pocket, keep it alone in a retaining pocket mean just for it where you can reach in easily to access it.
Better to just not use knives in self-defense.
No, it's just a good point about the masculine women you're asking for. As you said yourself, just because they were women there is no reason to assume they were actually feminine and not masculine according to the definition of these words.
The high school girl rivalries are only happening because the girls are raised with the same masculine values as the boys, they learn from a young age that they have to take what they can get and this leads to the struggles they have among eachother. Truly feminine girls would share the values of cooperation, sharing and the diplomatic solving of conflicts. A masculine culture that promotes solving conflicts through power gains simply corrupts the nature of these girls.
Ok, if you say so mate. Masculine = greedy and evil and Feminine = Angelic and Sweet.
There is no point in having this conversation any longer.
Seeing a woman in a Hijab is surprising where I come from. Does that mean we should infringe on her freedom to wear one when she goes shopping?
She can't stab you with a hijab though.
She can't stab you with a hijab though.
No, but she can much more easily conceal a weapon or bomb under it, and she may be using it to cover her face because she intends to commit a crime. It still doesn't mean I should keep her out of my supermarket.
No, but she can much more easily conceal a weapon or bomb under it, and she may be using it to cover her face because she intends to commit a crime. It still doesn't mean I should keep her out of my supermarket.
If you really want to, you should be able to keep her out of your supermarket. It's your supermarket.
BroskiDerpman
08-27-2013, 20:49
Wouldn't it be under this franchise or something where you got to adhere to rules? (i.e Don't trash talk customers or discriminate)
Sources: Reading the documents my parents got when they use to own a Quiznos.
Fisherking
08-27-2013, 21:01
But 80% overall live in urban areas. Which is the point - in urban areas, carrying around tools common in rural areas is, well, uncommon.
The denser the city, the more surprising it seems.
No it is not. Perhaps in an office or classroom, or where ever you have not noticed them.
Men carry them in their pockets and women carry them in their hand bags. Perhaps it is only a credit card sized object with a small blade, tweezers, etc. A woman may have a nail file and perhaps clippers. Still tools. You may carry a pin, a tool for writing. People carry the tools they think they may need. Urban or rural that makes no difference.
If you really want to, you should be able to keep her out of your supermarket. It's your supermarket.
You are right, I should have the right to, and the clinic should have the right to tell me I cannot carry a pocket knife, but that doesn't make it any less stupid. There are lots of stupid things that can be done but should not be done.
No it is not. Perhaps in an office or classroom, or where ever you have not noticed them.
Men carry them in their pockets and women carry them in their hand bags. Perhaps it is only a credit card sized object with a small blade, tweezers, etc. A woman may have a nail file and perhaps clippers. Still tools. You may carry a pin, a tool for writing. People carry the tools they think they may need. Urban or rural that makes no difference.
Good point, how would anyone really know who is carrying a pocket knife when they are in their pocket or purse?
Ok, if you say so mate. Masculine = greedy and evil and Feminine = Angelic and Sweet.
There is no point in having this conversation any longer.
Indeed, your prejudices are all wrong and that's not what I said, it's just a reductio ad absurdum of my argument.
Indeed, your prejudices are all wrong and that's not what I said, it's just a reductio ad absurdum of my argument.
If you say so. It doesn't matter anyway as the definition of feminine is not what this topic is about. It is about why America is turning into Land of Sheep and Home of the Fools. It is about why people can be so stupid and feel so threatened about such stupid things.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-27-2013, 22:39
Sure you still do. Opening plastic packages, cutting tape, cutting boxes, cutting loose threads off your clothing, prying stuff (sure, it is not good for your knife, but some times you have no alternative), etc, etc. You would not believe the amount of times I have needed a knife for things I never could have predicted I would use a pocket knife for. It is like a flash-light (something I always keep on my belt except when I am going to job interviews), one of those essential things that even if you use rarely you need there for those important times when nothing else will suffice.
None of which I need to do outside the house.
I literally NEVER need a knife off the farm/moors. When I do, I carry two knives known as Mr Choppy and Mr Stabby. My Stabby is for slitting throats and Mr Choppy is for cutting hooves off.
:shrug:
Montmorency
08-27-2013, 23:08
Seeing a woman in a Hijab is surprising where I come from. Does that mean we should infringe on her freedom to wear one when she goes shopping?
Well, while I have no problem with pocket knives - and we are speaking of tools more generally -
No it is not. Perhaps in an office or classroom, or where ever you have not noticed them.
Men carry them in their pockets and women carry them in their hand bags. Perhaps it is only a credit card sized object with a small blade, tweezers, etc. A woman may have a nail file and perhaps clippers. Still tools. You may carry a pin, a tool for writing. People carry the tools they think they may need. Urban or rural that makes no difference.
But not that generally. Come on now.
The crux: there is no way you can convince me people in dense cities - not urban sprawl interspersed with suburbs and farmland - are not used to individuals just carrying around tools for construction, mechanics, agriculture, or whatever. If they see such a thing, they'll assume the carrier is a blue-collar worker on the job. They would be very surprised to see someone carrying such things just because they might come in handy at some point in the day.
Because that doesn't make any sense. In the city, such tools are deployed either on jobs/job sites, or very rare DIY situations (in which case there's no need for them to leave the home).
How is this at all controversial?
Anyway, as I was saying, a hijab is just a headscarf and does not cover the face. As for bombs, where the heck would that fit between the head and the fabric? That's like something out of a cartoon.
If you really want to, you should be able to keep her out of your supermarket. It's your supermarket.
I'm sympathetic to this perspective, but in the end there's the concern that permitting - or, returning to - service discrimination based on ethnic (broadly speaking) categories might result in an unwanted level of social friction.
If you say so. It doesn't matter anyway as the definition of feminine is not what this topic is about.
Yes, tht only mattered when you didn't like the definition of someone else.
It is about why America is turning into Land of Sheep and Home of the Fools. It is about why people can be so stupid and feel so threatened about such stupid things.
Because it lowers violence and the crime rate. I remember people in gun threads saying that while the US did not implement sweeping gun control,the crime rate has steadily gone down in recent years. Obviously that supports my argument that more femininity lowers crime rates and violence.
You're absolutely barking up the wrong tree buddy, nothing about this is stupid, masculinity is not the solution, it is the problem.
Montmorency
08-27-2013, 23:33
Obviously that supports my argument that more femininity lowers crime rates and violence.
The problem with monocausal explanations is that they not only ignore other factors, but discount the potential that their own causality might just be illusory.
This kind of thought-process is of the same sort as, 'My mother has suddenly died, so the woman who moved into the village a month ago must be a murderous witch!'
The problem with monocausal explanations is that they not only ignore other factors, but discount the potential that their own causality might just be illusory.
This kind of thought-process is of the same sort as, 'My mother has suddenly died, so the woman who moved into the village a month ago must be a murderous witch!'
That doesn't prove anything, and it certainly doesn't prove that femininity makes America worse.
None of which I need to do outside the house.
I literally NEVER need a knife off the farm/moors. When I do, I carry two knives known as Mr Choppy and Mr Stabby. My Stabby is for slitting throats and Mr Choppy is for cutting hooves off.
:shrug:
Good for you. I find they come in handy quite often when away from my house.
Well, while I have no problem with pocket knives - and we are speaking of tools more generally -
But not that generally. Come on now.
The crux: there is no way you can convince me people in dense cities - not urban sprawl interspersed with suburbs and farmland - are not used to individuals just carrying around tools for construction, mechanics, agriculture, or whatever. If they see such a thing, they'll assume the carrier is a blue-collar worker on the job. They would be very surprised to see someone carrying such things just because they might come in handy at some point in the day.
Because that doesn't make any sense. In the city, such tools are deployed either on jobs/job sites, or very rare DIY situations (in which case there's no need for them to leave the home).
How is this at all controversial?
Anyway, as I was saying, a hijab is just a headscarf and does not cover the face. As for bombs, where the heck would that fit between the head and the fabric? That's like something out of a cartoon.
I'm sympathetic to this perspective, but in the end there's the concern that permitting - or, returning to - service discrimination based on ethnic (broadly speaking) categories might result in an unwanted level of social friction.
First of all, I meant burqa, not hijab. I know the difference, but I typed the wrong word.
Second of all, does it really matter if people are unused to seeing it? Does that make it right for them to say that someone cannot? Esp when a pocket knife poses significantly less danger than lots of things they allow?
They would be very surprised to see someone carrying such things just because they might come in handy at some point in the day.
Because that doesn't make any sense.
And yes, it does make sense. It is the same reason I carry a flashlight. Not because I go out and say "Hey, I am gonna drop something in a dark hole and need a flashlight to see it today!", or "I think tonight is a nice night to break down!", but because it is one of three easy to carry tools that come in handy in random situations fairly often, and are not a pain to carry around. A leatherman multi-tool, a flashlight, and a folding pocket knife are three things I carry on my belt and in my pocket everywhere (including when I go out to eat).
It is for the same reason I keep a short-handled, flat shovel, a fire extinguisher, a first-aid kit, a sand-log, and a hatchet in my car at all times: just because they may come in handy at some point in the day, and I would rather have them at that time than not. Why doesn't that make any sense? Or would you rather be the guy who pays out his rump for a service he could easily have done himself?
Indeed, your prejudices are all wrong and that's not what I said, it's just a reductio ad absurdum of my argument.
masculinity is not the solution, it is the problem.
Really? lol
Montmorency
08-28-2013, 01:39
That doesn't prove anything
Yep.
And yes, it does make sense. It is the same reason I carry a flashlight. Not because I go out and say "Hey, I am gonna drop something in a dark hole and need a flashlight to see it today!", or "I think tonight is a nice night to break down!", but because it is one of three easy to carry tools that come in handy in random situations fairly often, and are not a pain to carry around. A leatherman multi-tool, a flashlight, and a folding pocket knife are three things I carry on my belt and in my pocket everywhere (including when I go out to eat).
It is for the same reason I keep a short-handled, flat shovel, a fire extinguisher, a first-aid kit, a sand-log, and a hatchet in my car at all times: just because they may come in handy at some point in the day, and I would rather have them at that time than not. Why doesn't that make any sense? Or would you rather be the guy who pays out his rump for a service he could easily have done himself?
Flashlight: Depends on the size. If it's pen-sized, sure whatever. Maybe you forget your phone at home and need to find something that rolled under a desk.
Multi-tool: Why do you need a pocket knife if you're carrying one of these?
Car: Keep whatever you need in there, you spend a lot of time in the sticks anyway. The point is that there's no need to carry this stuff on your person at all times. Take me as a representative of the big city; that's how it is.
First of all, I meant burqa, not hijab. I know the difference, but I typed the wrong word.
Who even wears a burqa
Why have a folding knife if I have a multi-tool? Because a folding knife is a lot easier and quicker to access, so I don't like to use the one on the multi-tool unless I have to. The multi-tool itself is great for all kind of other stuff though. (I got the Leatherman Wave for Christmas two years ago and fell in love with it)
Strike For The South
08-28-2013, 04:29
If you are not trained with a knife and try to defend yourself with it, you will hurt yourself
Nonsense, you just stab with it, streetfights are no martial arts
Really? lol
No, it's not the same.
Can you name some masculine societies you like? Would you say Russian society is masculine?
Fisherking
08-28-2013, 09:52
Just to interpose, I don’t think he meant feminized so much as he meant effeminized.
He is railing against what he sees as of bunch of pansy, risk adverse, litigious, and feel-good laws and regulations, particularly since 9/11.
Put on your macho hat, think of John Wayne, walk with a swagger and call everyone pilgrim. That should put you in the right mood.
:creep:
And yes, it does make sense. It is the same reason I carry a flashlight. Not because I go out and say "Hey, I am gonna drop something in a dark hole and need a flashlight to see it today!", or "I think tonight is a nice night to break down!", but because it is one of three easy to carry tools that come in handy in random situations fairly often, and are not a pain to carry around. A leatherman multi-tool, a flashlight, and a folding pocket knife are three things I carry on my belt and in my pocket everywhere (including when I go out to eat).
It is for the same reason I keep a short-handled, flat shovel, a fire extinguisher, a first-aid kit, a sand-log, and a hatchet in my car at all times: just because they may come in handy at some point in the day, and I would rather have them at that time than not. Why doesn't that make any sense? Or would you rather be the guy who pays out his rump for a service he could easily have done himself
Flashlight - i use my mobile phone. That Galaxy SIII has a widget called "assistive light" and it's as bright as the independence day mothership. Granted it won't last too long but then again I don't plan on doing caligraphy in the dark in the middle of nowhere.
Short shovel I only carry in my trunk when it's winter here, because it sucks major spheric objects to gets stuck with a vehicle that is not 4x4 where your tires eventually creat little arching patches of glass-smooth ice and you can't get out.
Fire extinquisher and first aid kit are mandatory for all motor driven road vehicles here. Alongside a reflective vest, a reflective triangle and spare bulbs for your short headlights and your stop lights. Is it differente over there? Here, when the cop is really pissed/bored/hungry for a bribe he will check every litle detail and ask to see if you have that stuff in your trunk.
I have a shovel that can also be replaced with a hatched and was considering carrying it in my trunk but I can't forsee a situation where I would actually make use of a hatchet, apart from going medeival on someone which is not really a sound plan over here. I do however carry a blanket for unforseen sexy time in some field with my GF.
Nonsense, you just stab with it, streetfights are no martial arts
Eh, if you're fighting someone who knows what they are doing you'd get that knife stuck in your bunghole. If the both of you are inexperienced average joes then probably you having a knife will make him retreat. Knowing how to use it only matters if you're fighitg a skilled opponent.
Fisherking
08-28-2013, 10:10
Nonsense, you just stab with it, streetfights are no martial arts
Strike is from Texas, he is just telling you how it is.
As in “Boy, you pull that thing on me, it best be made out of chocolate, cause, you go’na be the one eating it.”
Eh, if you're fighting someone who knows what they are doing you'd get that knife stuck in your bunghole. If the both of you are inexperienced average joes then probably you having a knife will make him retreat. Knowing how to use it only matters if you're fighitg a skilled opponent.
Disarming someone is nigh impossible, I got a black belt in jiu-jitsu and I can assure you that I can't disarm someone. You would need a handlock movement to make someone release it and you are very unlikely to make one, and you will probably get hurt trying. If someone has a knive, run. Much better.
Yes but the average idiot will not have your posture, foot work, speed, reflexes and confidence. He will probably flail madly at you until he starts blinking sweat from his eyes. At some point you'd be able to bring him down and avoid the knife hand. If you're a striker you can knock him out, if you're a grappler/lockdown specialist you can bring him to heel. I used to train Aikido but only for a couple of years, and I know that what you train for and what happens in the street are two different things. But, if push comes to shove, someone like you will have a much higher chance to win with no or maye a minor wound. Perhaps you will get a horizontal slash or two against your forearms, big deal. Once you get a hold of the moron wiht the knife you can jump on his head until it resembles playdough. I know I would.
If the guy with the knife is some street thug who has been in may fights (and knife figths) then you'd be better of running, grabbing something with better reach or shooting him. Here's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h1U2QIc4K8) somethig fun to watch while on the subject.
The average person will tear me up pretty badly really. Martial arts are a sport, except for kickboxing that is actually fighting
Edit, just got to, we do it differently here, at my home great fun
The REAL bear jew https://smg.photobucket.com/user/Fragony/media/image_zps8e164f1b.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
Me being seriously beat up
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/1f48fcab-4da5-4eed-a43a-a6931761502d_zps32f2a91e.jpg
Goodnight et adieu https://smg.photobucket.com/user/Fragony/media/image_zpsb1b401c2.jpg.html?sort=3&o=24
Full contact no protection ;)
If you are not trained with a knife and try to defend yourself with it, you will hurt yourself
I cannot believe it, but I actually find myself agreeing with Strike on something! No, not because it is likely that your opponent will pull the knife out of your hand an use your own knife on you, but mainly, when an attacker who wants to rough you up and take your money sees you reaching for a knife, his intent will get a lot more serious. Most times you are gonna be attacked by more than one person. If you are trying to stab the guy, his friends who were just gonna rough you up are gonna stab you now or maybe beat you to death instead. Second of all, if they start grappling with you, are you gonna be able to keep hold of the knife? If not, it could be used directly against you. Even if you do keep it in your hand, you still may be held down and beaten to death.
Nonsense, you just stab with it, streetfights are no martial arts
You are right that they are not martial arts, but there is more to it than 'just stab with it'. How do you just stab with it? Martial arts are controlled practice sessions to train reflexes in you for real situations, but often times the practice is so removed from reality that they end up training reactions in you that can get you killed (such as bjj to name one of many). Having real experience in fights trains reflexes a lot better.
You are right that in a street fight people aren't gonna be doing a bunch of fancy looking techniques and are not going to be really thinking, but the guy with the best reflexes is still gonna win. Knowing what you are doing is pretty important.
Like I say, chances are in many situations that you will not even get your pocket knife out of your pocket and unfolded in time.
Flashlight - i use my mobile phone. That Galaxy SIII has a widget called "assistive light" and it's as bright as the independence day mothership. Granted it won't last too long but then again I don't plan on doing caligraphy in the dark in the middle of nowhere.
Short shovel I only carry in my trunk when it's winter here, because it sucks major spheric objects to gets stuck with a vehicle that is not 4x4 where your tires eventually creat little arching patches of glass-smooth ice and you can't get out.
Fire extinquisher and first aid kit are mandatory for all motor driven road vehicles here. Alongside a reflective vest, a reflective triangle and spare bulbs for your short headlights and your stop lights. Is it differente over there? Here, when the cop is really pissed/bored/hungry for a bribe he will check every litle detail and ask to see if you have that stuff in your trunk.
I have a shovel that can also be replaced with a hatched and was considering carrying it in my trunk but I can't forsee a situation where I would actually make use of a hatchet, apart from going medeival on someone which is not really a sound plan over here. I do however carry a blanket for unforseen sexy time in some field with my GF.
Eh, if you're fighting someone who knows what they are doing you'd get that knife stuck in your bunghole. If the both of you are inexperienced average joes then probably you having a knife will make him retreat. Knowing how to use it only matters if you're fighitg a skilled opponent.
No, nothing like that is required here. Most people think I am really weird for having that stuff in my car. lol
As far as a hatchet, the reason I have it is mostly to break glass. I have needed it to break a windshield before (which even with a hatchet is a lot harder than you would think BTW). Also, I use my car off-road a lot during certain times of the year (Crown Vic FTW), so it can come in handy then.
Strike is from Texas, he is just telling you how it is.
As in “Boy, you pull that thing on me, it best be made out of chocolate, cause, you go’na be the one eating it.”
Though, realistically Strike probably knows a lot less and has a lot less experience than Frags when it comes to real fights and to martial arts training.
Disarming someone is nigh impossible, I got a black belt in jiu-jitsu and I can assure you that I can't disarm someone. You would need a handlock movement to make someone release it and you are very unlikely to make one, and you will probably get hurt trying. If someone has a knive, run. Much better.
True, straight out disarming someone with a BJJ handlock or whatever is hard, but kicking someone in lower gut, then in the face when they reel tends to disarm them pretty quickly.
My advice to you Frags (if you are gonna insist on using a knife) is to get a fixed-blade with 6" blade on it, and install the sheath into a pocket in your overcoat in the winter, and one with a 4" inch blade for your trouser pocket in the summer.
If you cannot deploy your knife before you a knifed, it really does you no good.
Do not undersetimate yoursel Fragony! :yes:
The Lurker Below
08-28-2013, 15:33
Just to interpose, I don’t think he meant feminized so much as he meant effeminized.
He is railing against what he sees as of bunch of pansy, risk adverse, litigious, and feel-good laws and regulations, particularly since 9/11.
Put on your macho hat, think of John Wayne, walk with a swagger and call everyone pilgrim. That should put you in the right mood.
:creep:
well said.
may I add - When we stopped calling them thongs and men decided they were okay to wear in places other than the showers and the beach. You CANNOT defend a woman's honor wearing flipflops. Oh, and when we stopped defending a woman's honor, that didn't help.
My advice to you Frags (if you are gonna insist on using a knife) is to get a fixed-blade with 6" blade on it, and install the sheath into a pocket in your overcoat in the winter, and one with a 4" inch blade for your trouser pocket in the summer.
If you cannot deploy your knife before you a knifed, it really does you no good.
I am never in the the situation, just got it with me. I'll walk away from a 12 year old
...I'll walk away from a 12 year old
Who wouldn't? God forbid you hurt the kid, you'll be in a world of trouble (especially if it's Obama's son). If he hurts you, he'll be facing very limited liabilities due to age.
I am never in the the situation, just got it with me. I'll walk away from a 12 year old
Yeah, but you have it with you in case you are ever in that situation, right? Best to be prepared.
EDIT: Yeah, and I don't really get the whole 12 year old thing either.
ReluctantSamurai
08-28-2013, 23:40
Mate, I used my folding knife all the time when I was working at Arbys to open packages, break-down boxes, etc.
It is a pretty useful tool for tons of different jobs and just for everyday life when not on the job.
I would not dispute this. Being a country boy, myself, I carry all kinds of things on my person, or in my vehicle that I might find a use for during my daily activities. But......
....when I need to enter a public building, especially a government building, I leave everything except my cell phone and wallet in my truck, because I know that I will need to pass through a security checkpoint to enter. This sort of thing has been going on for years where I live. I know what to expect and deal with it accordingly.
So I do not understand the big deal, here. If you don't like the way things work, bitch to someone who might be able to do something about it. Otherwise.....just get on with it............:shrug:
....when I need to enter a public building, especially a government building, I leave everything except my cell phone and wallet in my truck, because I know that I will need to pass through a security checkpoint to enter. This sort of thing has been going on for years where I live. I know what to expect and deal with it accordingly.
So I do not understand the big deal, here. If you don't like the way things work, bitch to someone who might be able to do something about it. Otherwise.....just get on with it............:shrug:
Does every supermarket need to operate like a high security government building though? Isn't that a little ridiculous? Does an Occupational Health Clinic need to?
As far as the bolded bit, you could say that about any conversation had on the Org. The point is to discuss the merits and demerits and whether or not the measures taken are reasonable.
EDIT: Yeah, and I don't really get the whole 12 year old thing either.
I just don't like violence, so I walk. Doesn't really matter to me that I could easily win
Papewaio
08-29-2013, 09:23
If it is a medical clinic then it has a higher than normal chance of being held up by a desperate addict.
Addicts + disease + sharp objects = very dangerous.
Sure, I can understand that, but what about all the supermarkets who have armed security and still don't let you bring a pocket knife in?
Also, this was an occupational health clinic, and as far as I know they mostly just do drug testing and occupational therapy, so I doubt they would have any drugs there (or many diseased individuals coming in).
It just seems like major overkill and a really unnecessary inconvenience for the customer/client. (not to mention discriminatory, because a guy in a suit could walk in with a steel pen clipped on his shirt pocket and they wouldn't blink an eye) I think they are just paranoid.
I just don't like violence, so I walk. Doesn't really matter to me that I could easily win
Yeah, and that is the right thing to do, but you cannot always walk away. My point is that since you are carrying a knife for those times when you cannot walk away, I would simply switch the knife and how a carry it to something more effective.
Could always walk away really, but you can open a folder in a split-second, even by taking it out of your trousers if there's a pin on it's back
Nah, you cannot always walk away. Not when your back is against a wall and someone is intent on killing you. Would you walk away if someone was kidnapping a friend of yours?
It is pretty easy to whip it out switch-blade fashion regularly, but if someone is trying to kill you and your 'fight or flight' response has kicked in, are you gonna have the coordination to do that quickly and without it flying out of your hand? You will probably be fumbling quite a bit if your life is really on the line.
Nah, you cannot always walk away. Not when your back is against a wall and someone is intent on killing you. Would you walk away if someone was kidnapping a friend of yours?
It is pretty easy to whip it out switch-blade fashion regularly, but if someone is trying to kill you and your 'fight or flight' response has kicked in, are you gonna have the coordination to do that quickly and without it flying out of your hand? You will probably be fumbling quite a bit if your life is really on the line.
I don't know, never been in such a situation, avoiding any conflict works great so far. People who are violent scare me, so I take my loss when it comes to any pride. What is there to gain really, you will only hurt someone, or he will hurt you, better to just be a sissy no?
I don't know, never been in such a situation, avoiding any conflict works great so far. People who are violent scare me, so I take my loss when it comes to any pride. What is there to gain really, you will only hurt someone, or he will hurt you, better to just be a sissy no?
Yeah, I definitely agree there. Avoidance has always been my strategy too.
EDIT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEJniCCuqR4
Guess my point is this song here. Best to swallow your pride and avoid trouble when you can, but there are some times when you have to stand your ground.
The Lurker Below
08-29-2013, 17:23
flip flop flip flop - the sound of today's man trying to stand his ground. the flip flop is just another symptom of further effeminization. Kenny wore boots.
People who have pocket knives here are those who seek to cause intimidation and threaten to 'stab people' or mug them. I am not talking about a toolkit which is in the back of the car, i am on about those who wear such items on their person.
There is no reason to carry around a pocket knife unless you intend to stick it into some one. So when you turn up at the random clinic and pull out a knife at them, no wonder they get worked up and tell you to get rid of it.
People who have pocket knives here are those who seek to cause intimidation and threaten to 'stab people' or mug them. I am not talking about a toolkit which is in the back of the car, i am on about those who wear such items on their person.
There is no reason to carry around a pocket knife unless you intend to stick it into some one. So when you turn up at the random clinic and pull out a knife at them, no wonder they get worked up and tell you to get rid of it.
lmao mate, that is too funny. I am happy for you and your countrymen that you live in a country where the only people to carry pocket knives are those who seek to intimidate others, but for your to make the statement "There is no reason to carry around a pocket knife unless you intend to stick it into some one." is beyond absurd. You are seriously telling me that the only reason I carry my pocket knife (and have since before I have memory) is so that I can stick someone with it? Well I must be pretty darned bad if after all these years I have still failed to do that! I guess 80%+ of guys around where I live are all murderers to! I am glad that you decided that. Just because your country is hell hole does not give you reason to tell me and most people where I live that we are all want-to-be murderers!
And the way you word it makes it sound like I pulled a knife out, un-folded it, and stuck it at the woman's throat! She told me to empty my pockets, so I took it out (still folded up) and set it on the table. That is hardly threatening.
So because you banned guns, people are using tools as weapons? And now you're afraid of tools too?
Shocker.
We are not talking about screw driver or a wench, but a knife. A knife is for cutting things. A knife at a dinner table or a kitchen is none-threatening. A knife at a shop counter is something else entirely.
We are not talking about screw driver or a wench, but a knife. A knife is for cutting things. A knife at a dinner table or a kitchen is none-threatening. A knife at a shop counter is something else entirely.
lol mate, you gonna cut pretty deep to hit a blood vessel large enough to really cause damage with a pocket knife (except on the neck if you are really lucky or really know what you are doing). The only way to realistically kill someone with a pocket knife is to stab them, and a screw driver would do better than most pocket knives. Also, you consider wenches to be tools where you come from? Around here we don't speak about women that way. ~;)
The Lurker Below
08-29-2013, 22:46
We are not talking about screw driver or a wench, but a knife. A knife is for cutting things. A knife at a dinner table or a kitchen is none-threatening. A knife at a shop counter is something else entirely.
I pray I never have reason to harm someone, but if I did I'd much prefer a good Phillips head with a 6" shaft to my 2" blade that I use to cut string on hay bales, plastic off wiring, and clean out from under my nails with. I suspect I'd find a good wrench with 2+ lbs of iron to be a better bludgeon weapon than my "cutting" pocket knife. Let alone how dangerous we could be with a wench. I could flat out pull somebody clean in two with one them.
Papewaio
08-29-2013, 23:19
Its just a knife, man. I bought a big fat knife at a corner store for my sister not too long ago, and nobody was intimidated when she was playing around with it. It wasn't even a tool, it was clearly just one of those knives you sell people who like knives. Do you guys have to register your knives over there?
:laugh4:
This is at the heart of the gun debate, you know. If you take away guns, people will hurt eachother with other things. You gonna ban those too? Gonna keep at it until all of society needs to register their forks and spoons, and adults have to cut paper with safety scissors?
All you do by banning guns is make assault a little safer. You don't take away assault, and you don't take away murder. The whole thing is a red herring to avoid the question of "Why is there crime?" in the first place. Because that question always leads to the need for societal restructuring.
Because in Aus we see entire classes massacred by crocodile Dundee knives...
Rhyfelwyr
08-30-2013, 00:52
The UK has a sort of culture of fear when it comes to carrying a blade. They tend to be associated with chavs and the sort of people that will mug you. Sadly this has led to discretion being thrown out of the window, and carrying a knife is seen as a big deal, regardless of context.
The Lurker Below
08-30-2013, 22:52
There's an easy solution to that: let the poor blighters have guns and the knife fear will disappear.
Crazed Rabbit
09-04-2013, 05:46
People who have pocket knives here are those who seek to cause intimidation and threaten to 'stab people' or mug them. I am not talking about a toolkit which is in the back of the car, i am on about those who wear such items on their person.
There is no reason to carry around a pocket knife unless you intend to stick it into some one. So when you turn up at the random clinic and pull out a knife at them, no wonder they get worked up and tell you to get rid of it.
This ties in neatly with the topic, I think.
Pocket knives have many uses. I generally have one or another with me (but since I haven't stabbed anyone yet they all must be defective. Or maybe myself and all the people I know who carry knives/multitools/etc. are defective - or just not British).
Of course, those uses correlate with self-reliance, even if it's as simple as opening a package, unscrewing something, etc. I don't want to say it's feminine to not be self reliant, but not being self reliant seems to be the result of paternal governmental and societal pressures. As in, people are told they don't need to take care of themselves because someone else will do it for them, and they might hurt themselves anyway.
A huge part of this, of course, is related to our society's changing analysis of risk, as discussed in this excellent essay by Bruce Schneier (http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/our_newfound_fe.html);
We're afraid of risk. It's a normal part of life, but we're increasingly unwilling to accept it at any level. So we turn to technology to protect us. The problem is that technological security measures aren't free. They cost money, of course, but they cost other things as well. They often don't provide the security they advertise, and -- paradoxically -- they often increase risk somewhere else. This problem is particularly stark when the risk involves another person: crime, terrorism, and so on. While technology has made us much safer against natural risks like accidents and disease, it works less well against man-made risks.
...
Security measures combat a very different sort of risk: a risk stemming from another person. People are intelligent, and they can adapt to new security measures in ways nature cannot. An earthquake isn't able to figure out how to topple structures constructed under some new and safer building code, and an automobile won't invent a new form of accident that undermines medical advances that have made existing accidents more survivable. But a terrorist will change his tactics and targets in response to new security measures. An otherwise innocent person will change his behavior in response to a police force that compels compliance at the threat of a Taser. We will all change, living in a surveillance state.
When you implement measures to mitigate the effects of the random risks of the world, you're safer as a result. When you implement measures to reduce the risks from your fellow human beings, the human beings adapt and you get less risk reduction than you'd expect -- and you also get more side effects, because we all adapt.
We need to relearn how to recognize the trade-offs that come from risk management, especially risk from our fellow human beings. We need to relearn how to accept risk, and even embrace it, as essential to human progress and our free society. The more we expect technology to protect us from people in the same way it protects us from nature, the more we will sacrifice the very values of our society in futile attempts to achieve this security.
And before you go blaming them 'evil liberals' and the like remember its very often conservatives and republicans who are the most vocal advocates for restricting freedom/asserting control in the name of safety - e.g. in response to or anticipation of terrorist attacks. Recall also that the army doesn't let soldiers just carry around guns on military bases as they please, especially here in the US.
So I blame fear of risk.
CR
Of course, those uses correlate with self-reliance, even if it's as simple as opening a package, unscrewing something, etc. I don't want to say it's feminine to not be self reliant, but not being self reliant seems to be the result of paternal governmental and societal pressures. As in, people are told they don't need to take care of themselves because someone else will do it for them, and they might hurt themselves anyway.
I agree with the sentiment, but I disagree when it comes to pocket knives/flip-knives. Only time we generally come in contact with packaging that requires a tool is when we are at home and at work, and we have access to tools there such as a pair of scissors open and easily. If you are working in some where like Walmart where there are a lot of packages, they often give employees box-cutters which are hook shaped and which generally cannot be used as a weapon.
So to your example of quoting that you don't feel the need to cut people, which I am glad about, no one reasonable here ever feels the need to carry around a pocket-knife, and those that do come from high-poverty areas who want use them as 'hidden blades' akin to assassins creed. It might be that this association has really soured opinion of pocket-knives and causes such disdain, but I cannot think of an everyday situation where I have gone "I wish I had a pocket-knife to hand", it isn't a self-reliance issue.
Fisherking
09-04-2013, 10:50
I think a lot of this has to do with were you live and the things you do. People who are only “at work” or “at home” may not have a need or a problem but not everyone lives like that. Particularly those who live in more rural setting actually do things “outside“, or “on the go”. There is little need for a tool kit to rattle around in your car or truck if you have a multitool. Some make do with a pocket knife with a couple of small blades, a can opener, and two screwdriver points. They are usually under 3 inches long.
This does not include butterfly knives or 6” pig stickers. People don’t want to go home and get out the scissors to cut away the armored plastic packaging on most items. They want to use it then and there or out in the woods or fields, not in the kitchen.
Those who live indoors and only go from door to door in their lives may have no way of understanding what is outside their world view and will strongly disagree.
But real people do have legitimate uses for such tools on a daily basis. They don’t think of them as weapons and don’t carry them as such.
Thugs that carry weapons are going to carry weapons. If you take away knives they will develop new tactics using what ever they think will work. You will never be safe from them. You are fooling your self if you think that.
I am sorry Britain has a knife problem. Take their knives and you may be attacked by belt wielding thugs with large buckles, or what ever. Then you can outlaw those too.
They don’t think of them as weapons and don’t carry them as such.
I do, It always comes in handy, slicing up an orange that sort of thing, but I want to be able to defend myself if the odds are against me. Will absolutily use it.
Fisherking
09-04-2013, 14:26
I do, It always comes in handy, slicing up an orange that sort of thing, but I want to be able to defend myself if the odds are against me. Will absolutily use it.
I don’t think you are a really good example. Most people never are involved in street fights.
My guess would be that were you in the US you would try for a canceled carry permit.
I don’t think you are a really good example. Most people never are involved in street fights.
I am not either. Last time I was must be at least 10 years ago. But I do like to have it with me just in case.
Rhyfelwyr
09-04-2013, 16:58
Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six and all that...
I agree with the sentiment, but I disagree when it comes to pocket knives/flip-knives. Only time we generally come in contact with packaging that requires a tool is when we are at home and at work, and we have access to tools there such as a pair of scissors open and easily. If you are working in some where like Walmart where there are a lot of packages, they often give employees box-cutters which are hook shaped and which generally cannot be used as a weapon.
So to your example of quoting that you don't feel the need to cut people, which I am glad about, no one reasonable here ever feels the need to carry around a pocket-knife, and those that do come from high-poverty areas who want use them as 'hidden blades' akin to assassins creed. It might be that this association has really soured opinion of pocket-knives and causes such disdain, but I cannot think of an everyday situation where I have gone "I wish I had a pocket-knife to hand", it isn't a self-reliance issue.
You have never bought something you needed on the go from a store, and found out the packaging was impossible to open without a tool? Driving home is usually not practical, or in some cases (like when the item is for your car) not possible.
The truth is that most pocket knives make great tools and abysmal weapons. The pocket knife I currently carry has a roughly 3" blade if I remember, and is one of those 'flip out' ones (called tactical folders) that can be opened as fast as an automatic. It has a serrated portion at the rear of the cutting surface and a tanto tip. The scales are knurled steel, and the whole thing is blackened. To add to that, it has some stupid name like 'EXTREME OPS' to make it sound cool.
Here is a picture of it I found on the internetz:
10686
If the average bozo saw that they would think "OH NOEZ! IT IZ SKARIEZ MILITAREEZ NIVES! MASS KILLERZ!"
The truth is that the knife would be one of the worst choices possible as a weapon. First of all, it is a cheap piece of crap I bought because it was dirt cheap ($10 if I recall) and I needed a knife on the go and had forgot the one I usually carry. Second of all, while it may look intimidating because of its colour and style, it is a horrible weapon for impaling, and can do no real good for cutting.
The buck knife I used to carry around looks something like this:
10687
Most people would think that is a much less intimidating knife, and much more reasonable for someone to carry, but in reality the buck knife would be far more deadly as weapon.
People are afraid of pocket knives because they are ignorant, uneducated buffoons. If they knew anything about them they would not be. It is not to say that they cannot be used as weapons, but it is stupid to be so much more afraid of them than other tools and objects that can be just as deadly and more so.
My evil, black, killer, EXTREME OPS, military looking tactical folder that scared the stupid nurse at the clinic is well suited to general work, but extremely poorly suited to being used as a weapon. Because of its colour and style though she perceived it in an entirely different way.
The problem is the same one that made people burn innocent women for centuries: people are afraid of what they do not understand. It is wrong to let one's ignorance infringe on another's freedom though.
EDIT: lol, from the all powerful wiki:
There has been criticism against the notion of a "Tactical Folding Knife" when employed as a weapon instead of a utility tool. Students of knife-fighting point out that any locking mechanism can fail and that a folding knife regardless of lock strength can never be as reliable as a fixed-blade combat knife. Lynn Thompson, martial artist and CEO of Cold Steel pointed out in an article in Black Belt magazine that most tactical folding knives are too short to be of use in a knife fight and that even though he manufactures, sells, and carries a tactical folder, it is not ideal for fighting.
Young, Robert (2001). "Secrets of the Blade". Black Belt 39 (4): 92–97.
Montmorency
09-04-2013, 17:28
people are afraid of what they do not understand. It is wrong to let one's ignorance infringe on another's freedom though.
:mellow:
:mellow:
Right there. A knive is a weapon, or can be used as one. That people have other purposes for it is a bit of gayish. Of course it's a weapon. As Tiaxizz said there are also boxcutters with a hooked edge.
Right there. A knive is a weapon, or can be used as one. That people have other purposes for it is a bit of gayish. Of course it's a weapon. As Tiaxizz said there are also boxcutters with a hooked edge.
Same with a pair of scissors, a hammer, a beer bottle, a steel pen, a screwdriver, a tire iron, etc, etc.
Something is only a weapon if it meets one of two criteria:
1. It is designed for fighting or killing someone.
2. It is being used with the intent to fight or kill someone.
If neither are true, then it is not a weapon. If you attack someone with a tire iron, you will be charged with 'assault with a deadly weapon', even though it was not designed for the purpose you used it for. Does that make every tire iron a weapon? Of course not.
99% of folding knives are designed for utility, not as weapons, so unless a particular knife is being used as a weapon, it is not one.
Something having the physical capacity to kill does not make it a weapon. Otherwise would we count all who have the physical capacity to kill (ei, 99%+ of the worlds population) as murderers? Of course not, because there is not intent.
Likewise with tools, there needs to be intent; either in the design or the operator. Without the intent the tool is not a weapon.
EDIT: and those box cutters suck for opening anything other than a particular type of cardboard box BTW. There is tons of packaging that they cannot open effectively, and they are a pain in the rear to use on some things. At the end of the day, you are never going to match the versatility of a knife.
Fisherking
09-04-2013, 18:44
And I was talking one of these.
https://i.imgur.com/XvupYAU.jpg
Sorry, but if the sign said no knives, I would have sent you back out side to with that.
And I was talking one of these.
https://i.imgur.com/XvupYAU.jpg
Sorry, but if the sign said no knives, I would have sent you back out side to with that.
If it said no knives I would not have brought it in. It didn't though, it said no weapons. I stopped carrying one like the one you linked to when I turned 11 or twelve and I started carrying a multi-tool and a folder instead. It is way too much of a pain in the butt to get your blade out when it is in a mess like that, and they are generally weak, unreliable knives.
If a Swiss Army style knife does it for you, that is fine, but I have found them to be way too much a pain in the butt to operate.
Crazed Rabbit
09-07-2013, 07:18
Only time we generally come in contact with packaging that requires a tool is when we are at home and at work, and we have access to tools there such as a pair of scissors open and easily. If you are working in some where like Walmart where there are a lot of packages, they often give employees box-cutters which are hook shaped and which generally cannot be used as a weapon.
So to your example of quoting that you don't feel the need to cut people, which I am glad about, no one reasonable here ever feels the need to carry around a pocket-knife, and those that do come from high-poverty areas who want use them as 'hidden blades' akin to assassins creed. It might be that this association has really soured opinion of pocket-knives and causes such disdain, but I cannot think of an everyday situation where I have gone "I wish I had a pocket-knife to hand", it isn't a self-reliance issue.
That's a lot of assertions based just on your personal experience that you proclaim as truth for everyone. Just because it isn't a self reliance issue for you, personally, doesn't mean it's not a self reliance issue. Surely you can see that others might not have your exact circumstances?
CR
If it said no knives I would not have brought it in. It didn't though, it said no weapons. I stopped carrying one like the one you linked to when I turned 11 or twelve and I started carrying a multi-tool and a folder instead. It is way too much of a pain in the butt to get your blade out when it is in a mess like that, and they are generally weak, unreliable knives.
If a Swiss Army style knife does it for you, that is fine, but I have found them to be way too much a pain in the butt to operate.
https://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&q=spyderco+tenacios&oq=spyderco+tenacios&gs_l=img.3...2405.13531.0.14798.17.12.0.5.5.0.225.1564.2j9j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.26.img..1.16.1565.tCQ Nsq4uJd0&biw=1024&bih=644&sei=DvMqUoKsLMWb1AXdw4GIDg#biv=i%7C1%3Bd%7Ckw040CadTgbCRM%3A Awesome for the price, Spyderco Tenacious. Inredible value, don't drop it though the blade breaks pretty easily
I also have a Leatherhand multitool by the way, that is a really fine product. Kinda expensive though. One to keep for sure.
That's a lot of assertions based just on your personal experience that you proclaim as truth for everyone. Just because it isn't a self reliance issue for you, personally, doesn't mean it's not a self reliance issue. Surely you can see that others might not have your exact circumstances?
Sure, but it is rather clear from my posting that I am not addressing the small minority Bear Grylls crowd but your average person who lives in modern society. I really don't see how anyone needs the 'EXTREME OPS' combat knife to pick up kids in your car whilst on the school run, or to pick up groceries from Walmart, or during the hours of your desk-job.
Sure, but it is rather clear from my posting that I am not addressing the small minority Bear Grylls crowd but your average person who lives in modern society. I really don't see how anyone needs the 'EXTREME OPS' combat knife to pick up kids in your car whilst on the school run, or to pick up groceries from Walmart, or during the hours of your desk-job.
Why do you need a fire extinguisher to pick up your kids? You don't, but you are still gonna keep one in your car, right? A knife is one of those tools that mostly gets used for unexpected reasons when you are carrying it. Just like a fire extinguisher, I don't need it to pick up my kids (I don't have kids, but I am using your example), but I will still have it with me in case I need it on the way there, there, or on the way back.
And mate, what do you mean combat knife? The quote-unquote Extreme Ops is not a combat knife. The name was chosen as a marketing stunt to make people think of a tough, dependable knife that someone in the military would use. In reality, it is just a cheap piece of crap, and you better hope your life never depends on it. Second of all, if a person in the military were to use a similar knife, that does not make it a combat knife. Folders like that are used exclusively for utility, not combat. A ka-bar is a combat knife, a folding knife is not. I will point you again to this snippet from Black Belt magazine.
There has been criticism against the notion of a "Tactical Folding Knife" when employed as a weapon instead of a utility tool. Students of knife-fighting point out that any locking mechanism can fail and that a folding knife regardless of lock strength can never be as reliable as a fixed-blade combat knife. Lynn Thompson, martial artist and CEO of Cold Steel pointed out in an article in Black Belt magazine that most tactical folding knives are too short to be of use in a knife fight and that even though he manufactures, sells, and carries a tactical folder, it is not ideal for fighting.
Young, Robert (2001). "Secrets of the Blade". Black Belt 39 (4): 92–97.
A tactical folding knife (again, just a name chosen by a marketing team to increase sales) is an awful weapon for combat or self-defense. Not only that, but it is not designed as one. To call that cheap piece of crap knife of mine a 'combat knife' is patently false.
https://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&q=spyderco+tenacios&oq=spyderco+tenacios&gs_l=img.3...2405.13531.0.14798.17.12.0.5.5.0.225.1564.2j9j1.12.0....0...1ac.1.26.img..1.16.1565.tCQ Nsq4uJd0&biw=1024&bih=644&sei=DvMqUoKsLMWb1AXdw4GIDg#biv=i%7C1%3Bd%7Ckw040CadTgbCRM%3A Awesome for the price, Spyderco Tenacious. Inredible value, don't drop it though the blade breaks pretty easily
I also have a Leatherhand multitool by the way, that is a really fine product. Kinda expensive though. One to keep for sure.
Spyderco makes a decent knife, but I don't like their blade designs and they are way too expensive for me. If I had a better job and wanted to buy a folding knife, I would get the Cold Steel Espada XL. Ever since I saw Tool use it in the Expendables I have been in love with that knife. I would never use it of course because it is too pretty. I would just hang it over my bed or something. :P
Crazed Rabbit
09-07-2013, 15:34
Sure, but it is rather clear from my posting that I am not addressing the small minority Bear Grylls crowd but your average person who lives in modern society. I really don't see how anyone needs the 'EXTREME OPS' combat knife to pick up kids in your car whilst on the school run, or to pick up groceries from Walmart, or during the hours of your desk-job.
I know a lot of average folks who do carry around a pocket knife. Again, you're making a lot of assumptions that all "regular people" who aren't yourself have the same needs and thoughts and act the same as you.
'Extreme ops' knives are just flashy marketing. They can be neat, mechanically speaking, and fun to collect.
Finally, just because a person usually won't need a pocketknife is no argument against the utility of carrying one for the occasional time they do find one useful.
CR
Spyderco makes a decent knife, but I don't like their blade designs and they are way too expensive for me. If I had a better job and wanted to buy a folding knife, I would get the Cold Steel Espada XL. Ever since I saw Tool use it in the Expendables I have been in love with that knife. I would never use it of course because it is too pretty. I would just hang it over my bed or something. :P
This one is cheap, you should be able to get one for 50 or so, for a Spyderco knive that's pretty good. It's made in China but it's exactly the same knive
This one is cheap, you should be able to get one for 50 or so, for a Spyderco knive that's pretty good. It's made in China but it's exactly the same knive
Yeah, but I don't got $50 to spend on a knife. I am making about $9.50 an hour, and have tons and tons of debts that I owe every one and their mother.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-08-2013, 00:19
People who have pocket knives here are those who seek to cause intimidation and threaten to 'stab people' or mug them. I am not talking about a toolkit which is in the back of the car, i am on about those who wear such items on their person.
There is no reason to carry around a pocket knife unless you intend to stick it into some one. So when you turn up at the random clinic and pull out a knife at them, no wonder they get worked up and tell you to get rid of it.
Oh I'm sorry, but that's piffle.
I have a pocket knife with a 3 inch blade and nice wooden insets in the handle. It's a proper lock-knife with a catch, too.
I used it to open the Amazon backed the Skyrim Legendary edition came in.
That knife is illegal in public without good reason.
https://www.gov.uk/find-out-if-i-can-buy-or-carry-a-knife
Actually - official UK advice here is contradictory, because all Swiss Army Knives are lock-knives.
Anyway, the point is that I never need the knife in public. Ever.
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