The Conspiracy of Everything!

[Fisherking]

Quoting from Myth:

Afghanistan happened after the Talliban stopped all heroin production. Now, under US occupation and inlfuence, the heroin production is at an all-time high. Don't even get me started on 9/11, I think even the majority of US citizens nowadays feel there is something fishy about it. Only 1 in 4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polls_about_9/11_conspiracy_theories) beleive the talliban did it.

Iraq happened for complex reasons, oil being the primary one but also because it is a threat to Israel, because it has some very important archeological sites (believe it or not) and that whole chemical weapons scare was a hoax as was revealed. Now I'm not saying Saddam wasn't a sodomizing evil despot, but I'm saying that major foreign policy decision are not made because "let's bring liberty, freedom, democracy and Mcdonalds for the Iraqui people". Baghdad hadn't even fallen yet when tankers for the already pre-contracted oil companies came to leech from Iraq. I know a guy who was a military surgeon stationed in Kerbalah, so I have some knowledge of what is going on. He told me that the US military was so well equipped, they could have ended this war in 6 months, but they dragged it out because they needed an excuse to keep the land occulied and contine with the oil theft.

Libya happened after Gaddafi had ideas to revive the golden (http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Videos.php/2011/05/08/gaddafi-gold-for-oil-dollar-doom-plans-b) dinar and also because of its oil. Can't have someone messing with the hegemony of the all mighty worthless green paper printed by the "federal" reserve.

Egypt has been the object of CIA/Mossad interests for years now, and has been thoroughly destabilized. The latest events in Egypt are products of the funding and planning provided by these agencies and mean to remove the muslim threat from the second largest and one of the scariest neighbors of Israel.

Syria is a pure 100% product of the efforts of western and Israeli agents. The mercs who are the "rebels/protesters/freeDUHm fighters" have been paid for and equipped by the allies. Hell, they even admitted to supplying them with weapons. This gas attack everyone is talking about now was done by the rebels and pinned on the government, because you know what? There is no such thing as independent and objective western media (not that the eastern meida is much better). They force feed their people bullshit and most eat it with an appetite and like it. Some even get mad when they are being told the truth.

Now after a lot of machinatins, the retards from our Bulgarian government blamed Hizbualh for the suicide bomber attack at the Burgas airport. This made the Eu finalyl cave to Israeli/US (the same thing basically) demands to catalogue Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation. Lebanon is next and maybe they were thinking of just smashing Syria and Lebanon together for the sake of speed and practicality. Hezbollah's primary ideologies: Shia Islamism, Anti-imperialism, Anti-Zionism. They ar ethe leading party in Lebanon.

Iran is a big bite to chew but they have been prepped for some years now. Nuclear armament, threats, misinformation spewing from the corrupt media. It's funny how Israel made their own nukes and didn't ask the big 5 for permition, but when Iran does it suddenly we're talking full scale war.

See the pattern? Any country which:

1. Has valuable natural resources that can be exploited
2. Does not conform to the western banking elite's policy of slavery by debt and mindles consumption
3. Is close to and/or a threat to Israel

has to be either directly invaded or destabilized trough agents and paid mercenaries and "freedom protesters"

However, as the west becomes more and more greedy and obnoxious they will only stregthen the opposion in the face of Russia/China. Those two don't want to be colonized and we're possibly looking at WW3 if push comes to shove in the middle east.
This links them all as one for world control.
A Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEV5AFFcZ-s

What is said comes from many sources. Much of this is true, however, calling it one conspiracy is stretching it. At least for me, it is.
I don’t believe in a Jewish conspiracy for world domination but I do believe many interests are trying to gain power. Power at the expense of individuals along with their rights and liberties which might be inconvenient to their profit motive.
Pass over UFOs and free energy and get to the rest. Governments and Corporations are in league and do promote agendas. It may not be one agenda or one conspiracy but many. Pushed by moneyed elitists and corporate sponsors to have their way and promote their industry or products at the expense of others.
To this end, politicians are bought off with money and incentives to look favorably on these agendas.

While you may prefer to thing of it as corporate and government self interest it could end the same way as the movie predicts.

It is food for thought. Or, did your attention span give out before the end?

Can't wait to see the assorted reactions!

[HoreTore]

Conspiracy theories are nonsense.

That the rich get richer and the poor is kept poor is just the natural way of our society, there's no need for a huge conspiracy to make it so.

We all try to do the most to elevate our standing, and the result of our combined effort is the world today. Things happen independently, and are not connected to each other. Al-Qaida crashed planes into WTC, there's absolutely nothing fishy about it whatsoever. "The jews" certainly do not control the world and syria is the natural result of unresolved conflicts in syrian society fueled by economic downturn and regional spillover effects. The US could've defeated the Iraqi uprising in 6 months? "lol" is the only appropriate response to that.

TL;DR version: conspiracy theories are retarded.

[Papewaio]

Right. Only problem with this is everyone always sees the oil but never looks below the news :coffeenews:

Yeap the worlds second largest traded resource is coffee. Try and make a decent conspiracy about that.

[Fisherking]

There are conspiracies every day. You need look no further than your classroom for that. People conspire to do things. Basic cooperation.

To many these may look like some cabal. Many entities may have things in mind you would not agree to, or with.

Having a closed mind and pretending such things do not happen is the retarded part.

Explaining what is occurring, which interests etc. would seem more productive and reasonable than saying it is just bunk, don’t look at the man over there.

[Myth]

HoreTore you are so full of yourself, I'd like to meet you and punch you in the face, then have a beer with you. But since you have glorious Viking genes you're probably 2 meters tall with trunks for arms so we could just go for the beer. I didn't know you were a teacher but being so opinionated Is a side effect of your profession I suppose.

The thing I learned in my ever ongoing search for the truth is that one cannot make other people open their mind and wake up by force. It is an internal process and the only thing we can to is guide people on how to look for information and where to start, once they bring up the subject themselves.

The easiest way to avoid unpleasant truths is to paint them with clown makeup. A conspiracy and conspiracy theories now is a bad word with a negative connotation. When you hear "conspiracy theorist" you imagine a nutjob with a tin foil hat who is talking about alien abductions, reptillian queens and frequencies. Everyone wants to be in the norm, to not stick out as someone out of line with society. We are social animals. Thus, by attaching such a negative connotation to a word which should mean one who looks for alternative sources of facts, who observes patterns and who doesn't take his information as it is we actually prefer to distance ourselves from doubting the status quo and from "overthinking things".

Yet everyone thinks they are smart. I haven't met a single person who admits to being of average intelligence. To be smart, one must doubt, test and confirm for oneself. Obviously you don't need to test if falling from the 10th floor would kill you, I'm talking about dobuting and testing things which are related to happenings you cannot observe directly, to explanations of motivations, cause, to renditions of history and so on.

Also, I would like for the people in this thread to use terms as their true meaning implies, and if I use a term wrongly I ask to be corrected. Thus, we should avoid the degradation of the thread. When I talk aboit Zionism I don't mean that "THE JEWS DID IT". In fact, the Jewish community sports some of the biggest opposers of the Zionist politics. Also, some of the biggest Zionists are not ethinic jews themselves!

I started my search for the truth out of curiosity about the great seal of the United States on the back of the dollar bill, long before Dan Brownpants wrote his books about it, long before Hollywood sh*t out that farce National Treasure. I will abstain from talking of history and occultism here, because those require their own separate topics and because talking about the streets of Washington D.C. or the closing ceremony of the London Olympics and Beyonce's Superbowl performace will make people lift up their hands and say "okay we're in crazy land again".

So let's talk politics and economics, and provide facts, OK?

Let me ask you this: who, according to you, is running the world? Or more precisely: Europe and the USA? Do you truly believe you live in a democracy? Especially if you live in the USA? If you think your government runs things and if you think you are experiencing democracy i have bad news for you.

The current system of the Western societies (let's call them that) fits the bill of CheGuevara's, Marx's and Lennin's worst fears. How are laws made? They are made with lobbies buying off goverment officials and pushing the laws that would benefit them. Do the laws function and are they enforced equally for all citizens? No they are not. If you steal a turnip from the local farmer's marked you will be arrested and possibly suied/fined/locekd up. If you are a billonare you float high above the reach of the law and can do whatever you damn well please. Your primary concern becomes extending your sphere of control. The current society has an incredibly rich 1% of the population who walk as gods among men, immune to prosecution, judgment and even to pulbic outcry (becuse they own the media) and the 99% who live shackled with invisible chains.

Who tells you what is going on? The news. TV and the papers. Who owns them? If you follow the chian you will eventually reach one or two of about 15-16 families (dynasties). Who produces, processes and packages your food? It all leads up to mega brands, owned by these same people. When we talk about corporations, in reality we are talking abut the same people at the very top or behind the curtain. Monsanto, Chevron, Kraft Foods - all leads up to the same few multi-trillonaires who run the show.

Is it possible to live your life without encountering the shackles of debt, the guiding hand of your government, the enforcing smite of the police baton? Nope. Is it possible for a country to splinter off and be independant? Maybe. See Venezualla for exmaple, or North Korea. Or Iran. But those are "bad" countries right? I had a 33 degree mason, ex foregin minister, tell me over the radio the other day that the allies have to invade Syria sooner rhater than later because it was a matter of good vs. evil and that we have to stand on th e side of good and not let evil do what it pleases. This is an absolute farce, yet if you say a lie enough times people start beleiving in it. That's why so many americans still talk about terrorism this and war on terror that.

Small countries like Bulgaria have it worse than the western societies. Following the crash of the Berlin Wall, things went downhill here. A standing army of 200,000 with adequate equipment, missile launching sites and a dense network of AA guns that can challenge even the US airforce - that was the legacy of the Communist regime. All these were dismantled and destroyed once we got into Nato. A colony does not need an army after all. We whored ourselves to be given admition into the EU, by giving airspace to the USA so it can test its bombs in Serbia. Depleted uranium had horrible consequences for the civilian population and for the agriculture in the region, but you don't hear about that do you?

Our manufacturing centers were privatized in a pathetic way, then driven to bankrupsy and sold for peanuts. The best gems were bought out by the same coprorations who run the colonizers to the west - such as our oil refinement plant, metalurgy plants and of course - our gold mine. This is what you do to a colony - you take their resources, you make living conditions hell so their young, bright minds stream to your countries, you keep people ignorant, poor and unhealthy. Dundee Prescious Metals has mined 100 tons of gold so far. Bulgarian gold which is supposed to be a national treaure, they mined out and shipped off to wherever. The concession was signed by corrupt politicians bought by that same corporation.

And we are still a European country. Things go downhill for those who don't bend the knee and take it with pleasure from the rear. Such as - you guessed it, muslim countries, militarized states and so on. So what do we do? We sick our media on them, paint devil horns on them, then invade and take what we want. More importantly, we squash those who would appear as beacons of resistance to our desires to run the world the way we want to.

Syria is being destabalized by mercenaries employed by Nato. The Egyptian army overthrew the Muslim president on orders from Washington - these are modern day Crusaders who still want the middle east but can't get it as easily because we are supposed to be more "civilized".

Meanwhile the people who live in these false democracies are fed lies and bullshit, and furhter more are gradually sumberged in more and more stupidity, obecity and ignorance. I can tell you first hand that our educational system was better before we "modernized" it to fit the pansy US standard of essays and tests. I can see the kids getting less and less educated as the generations pass.

More and more distractions are given - a three ringed circus of celebrity bullshit and the new "TOP STORY" to dangle before us like pacifiers, whilst the truly imporant events of the day fade into obscurity.

The food is poison, not the kind that will kill you outright of course, but it is tailor made to make you addicted, fat and eventually unhealthy. Because the same corporations also own the pharmaceutical companies. You will not see a cure for cancer - because cancer generates money. And don't get me wrong - money is not the issue here. These people manufacture money. But money is a way to pin the population down and it's doing a damn good job of it, because for you and I, not having money is as good as being dead. Here are some videos to watch to get a better and more precise understanding of what I'm talking about here with broad strokes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExBE651_vOY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx_LWm6_6tA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

These are very mild, no reptiles and UFOs there. But yes - wars, finanical crisis, disease, famine: they are all artificially created and/or endorsed. Keeping the population down, endebted, divided, angry, ignorant, starving, sick and so on is a great way to control it. Much better than cracking a whip across people's backs. The same elites who run your countries and leech the life out of colonies like my country, consider us as nothing more than cattle. And condition us in a way which is suitable to them.

[Hax]

The irony of Myth's post is that he decries supposed western influence everywhere, but acknowledges its existence at the same time. There's a paradox in the logic of conspiracy theorists: rather than assuming there are very real problems that can be fixed by very rea people, everything is somehow connected through a complex system led by the Jews/the banks/corporations/space lizards.

Furthermore, it handily avoids any real investment in trying to figure out what these problems are throughout the world. E.g, the manifestations against Morsi were not the result of poor economic management combined with authoritarian and religious reforms, but were all instigated by "The West". The roots of the conflict in Syria lie not in three decades of suppression the respective Assad (Hafez and Bashar) regimes, but were simply the result of "The West".

Ironically this kind of "West" (or Israel) blaming is something we encounter a lot throughout the Middle-East itself: rather than facing problems on their own terms and trying to work towards realistic and viable goals, whenever something goes wrong, it's automatically blamed on "western/zionist interference".

Get a grip.

[Myth]

The irony of Myth's post is that he decries supposed western influence everywhere, but acknowledges its existence at the same time. There's a paradox in the logic of conspiracy theorists: rather than assuming there are very real problems that can be fixed by very rea people, everything is somehow connected through a complex system led by the Jews/the banks/corporations/space lizards.

Furthermore, it handily avoids any real investment in trying to figure out what these problems are throughout the world. E.g, the manifestations against Morsi were not the result of poor economic management combined with authoritarian and religious reforms, but were all instigated by "The West". The roots of the conflict in Syria lie not in three decades of suppression the respective Assad (Hafez and Bashar) regimes, but were simply the result of "The West".

Ironically this kind of "West" (or Israel) blaming is something we encounter a lot throughout the Middle-East itself: rather than facing problems on their own terms and trying to work towards realistic and viable goals, whenever something goes wrong, it's automatically blamed on "western/zionist interference".

Get a grip.

You are so well informed about the suppresion in Syria. What was suppressed? In what way? You will always find disgruntled plebs ready to wield torches and shout in every regime and every nation. That the intelligence agencies are masters of manipulating the unwashed masses in doing what they want and placing insurgents within them to spark civil war is fact.

I also don't see any contradictions, the problems are very real - the western society is based on stupid, fat people living an imposed dream and shackled with debt. Everything ties because world shattering events don't just happen like that - someone always benefits, and if you look at history you will see who has benefitted the most by all the strife humanity has gone through.

Western influence is everywhere except for countries which violently expunge it. If you have examples of e contradicting myself - go on, let's debate them.

[Myth]

Right. Only problem with this is everyone always sees the oil but never looks below the news :coffeenews:

Yeap the worlds second largest traded resource is coffee. Try and make a decent conspiracy about that.

Haha. Well the difference is that coffee is a product of agriculture. Thus, the ones who produce it do so for very low return of their labor. The ones who buy the raw harvest and then process it and package it make the big bucks, and they are the ones who are trading it. They don't particuarly add much value but they do increase the price to make huge profits. Who has more money, a coffee farmer in Columbia or Nescafe? It is a process strictly controlled by the corporations and mega brands. See image here. 10644

Oil is a natural resource which can directly be converted to money and can actually be used for trade (bartering oil for AK-47s happens a lot). Whilst the refineries and companies like BP and Chevron still make quite a buck by buying it raw and reselling petrol and diesel to the population, the raw oil is still valuable enough to be traded on the stock exchange even (barrels of unrefined oil).

If a country has possession of its oil and DOES NOT give it as a concession to be exploited by Shell, Chevron or BP, then it becomes rich, its GDP increases and it does not take loans from the IMF. And that is bad, because small miserable countries have to be ensnared with debt to Rothschild's IMF. So how can you leave Lybia to trade its oil only with gold dinars? You can't, your dollar would become junk and Lybians will get to live well and be free of your whole system of banks making money out of thin air.

How do you let Saddam trade his oil in Euros? You can't, because the dollar would plunge faster than a lead brick. Hence going to war, figting terror, doing backflips, just so you can put your hands on that resource.

It's the same reason small countries don't get to mine their own gold and diamonds and why no one will be allowed to make gold-backed currency.

[Fisherking]

Hax

I don’t think there is a head to any global conspiracy. Banks and Central Banks do operate on debt and do exert a certain amount of control governments. But there are other players too. Not all with the same ideas in mind. Oil interests oppose other energy sources, for example. Large defense corporations support selling arms, and the threat of using them. Whether it is one conspiracy or many corporate interests competing for power, it makes little difference in the outcome.

The conspiracy behind the formation of the Federal Reserve was real, just as Wilson’s goal of involving the US in the first world war was real. A few months ago you would be incredulous as to the amount of government spying on people. Just a crazy conspiracy theory with all of the rest.

These interests may not be in control of all events but they are more than willing to take advantage of them for their own purposes.

It is always prudent to examine the motives behind policies and laws and to treat skeptically what the government and media are telling you.

More often than not, it is not the truth.

[HoreTore]

There are conspiracies every day. You need look no further than your classroom for that. People conspire to do things. Basic cooperation.

To many these may look like some cabal. Many entities may have things in mind you would not agree to, or with.

Having a closed mind and pretending such things do not happen is the retarded part.

Explaining what is occurring, which interests etc. would seem more productive and reasonable than saying it is just bunk, don’t look at the man over there.

Small conspiracies happen all the time(it's really just cooperation), and are part of our daily life.

The grand conspiracy where an elite group is secretly running the world behind the scenes, however, is utter crap. And when you start believing that it wasn't Bin Laden who was behind 9/11 or any other crap like that, you're far off into idiot-land. Sorry.

[HopAlongBunny]

A simpler way to look at it:

You don't need to posit a conspiracy on the part of wolves to acknowledge the fact that they tend to keep the caribou population in check
Sometimes its just the natural outcome of a process.

No difference in man-made environments

[Fisherking]

Small conspiracies happen all the time(it's really just cooperation), and are part of our daily life.

The grand conspiracy where an elite group is secretly running the world behind the scenes, however, is utter crap. And when you start believing that it wasn't Bin Laden who was behind 9/11 or any other crap like that, you're far off into idiot-land. Sorry.

And if you read what I am saying you would not be applying that to me.

Cartels and interest groups try to influence the people and governments all the time. Those, conspiracies if you will, are real enough. They are also dangerous enough, if left unchecked.

The grand conspiracy as I see laid out only attempts to tie together all of the real smaller ones and attribute it to some grand puppet master, whom I do not believe exists.

My purpose is to separate the real from the imagined. Break them into component parts.

However, in aiding these various groups, I see governments moving ever closer to the outcome postulated by those who do believe that is all a global conspiracy, by their natural tendency to amass more control and more power over those they are supposed to serve.

[HoreTore]

The third sentence of your OP reads:


Don't even get me started on 9/11, I think even the majority of US citizens nowadays feel there is something fishy about it. Only 1 in 4 beleive the talliban did it.

Which puts it deep into idiot-land. Most of the rest fits the same category, like attributing the Syrian uprising to "western influence".

What never fails to amuse me is how those who claim our countries are not democratic enough are so quick to support confirmed dictators, like Assad.

[rvg]

Everyone knows that the 9/11 attackers had mind control chips personally implanted into them by the leader of the World Jewry. Jews know about that via their regular "Take Over the World" newsletter that every Jew secretly receives. I saw it myself, I swear!

[drone]

It's funny how Israel made their own nukes and didn't ask the big 5 for permition, but when Iran does it suddenly we're talking full scale war.
Small point, Israel is not a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, Iran is. Isreal did it like India and Pakistan, nice and legal. Iran would be in direct violation if they are weaponizing.

[Lemur]

Useful for this discussion: All-in-one conspiracy theory flowchart. Helpful if you're uncertain whether you're blaming everything on Freemasons, Jews, or Aliens.

https://i.imgur.com/JqqgfLj.jpg

[Myth]

Opinions are like butt holes, right? You give no argument nor do you present facts, therefore you only state your opinion. Hore Tore also insults (indirectly of course, him being a mannered superior Nordic genius).

I gave you examples of why you live in a false democracy where you don't REALLY have the freedoms your betters do, nor do you have the freedoms to live outside of the model they set for you. I show you that sooner or later all of the big companies that exert influence in governments and in third world countries belong to a small number of people. You respond with aliens, jewsdid9/11, chips and so on.

Watch the first and third videos I posted. Tell me again about how bloody free you are. Especially the third video. Rebuke it with facts, right here. I'll wait.

Hore Tore and rvg obviously believe what fox news told them, but all those behind the 911truth movement are not idiots and tin foil hats, you know? There is factual evidence that these jets could not have caused the damage we witnessed, but this is not a thread about 9/11, nor is it a thread about the jewish peoples.

I admire Fisherking's desire to have a discussion about conspiracy theories and where the truth lies (probably in between Faux news' breaking reports of chemical weapons in Iraq and the guy who thinks the Queen of England is a reptile from another dimension) but it is impossible to have such a discussion because while we accept that they have their version of the truth and we respect that, they see us with the clown make up and can't take us seriously. Everyone believes what they want.

Regarding Iran - if it were not nuclear weapons, it would be something else. Iran is a thorn in their side and they want it gone, but it's too big to go and fling missiles at until it keels over. That war (when it comes) will have long reaching and disastrous effects on all of us.

[rvg]

...Hore Tore and rvg obviously believe what fox news told them, but all those behind the 911 truth movement are not idiots and tin foil hats, you know?

I am an American conservative while HoreTore is a Scandinavian liberal. The fact that the two of us manage to agree on anything at all is in itself a miracle of nature. Yet being on the polar opposites of the political spectrum we are very skeptical of conspiracy theories. I wouldn't call 911 truthers idiots even though I really want to. Not all of them are idiots, those on top probably manage to skim quite a bit of cash off this scam.

[a completely inoffensive name]

"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy or the grey aliens or the 12 foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control. The truth is more frightening, nobody is in control. The world is rudderless."

Alan Moore for those curious

[Montmorency]

If all human events possess purpose, then all human deeds possess purpose. And yet when men vie with men, the purpose of no man comes to fruition: the result always falls somewhere in between. The purpose of deeds, then, cannot derive from the purposes of men, because all men vie with all men. This means the deeds of men must be willed by something other than men. From this it follows that we are all slaves.
Who then is our Master?

Seems relevant.

[Sarmatian]

Secret societies, free masons, jews, locked-up masons, ritual handshakes and nose pullings are indeed nonsense, but to believe powerful lobbies exert no influence over policy makers is also quite retarted.

[HoreTore]

I am an American conservative while HoreTore is a Scandinavian liberal. The fact that the two of us manage to agree on anything at all is in itself a miracle of nature. Yet being on the polar opposites of the political spectrum we are very skeptical of conspiracy theories. I wouldn't call 911 truthers idiots even though I really want to. Not all of them are idiots, those on top probably manage to skim quite a bit of cash off this scam.

I see no real difference between a "9/11 truther" and a holocaust denier. Both equally disgusting, and I see absolutely no need for me to engage in debate with such vile opinions.

I have no desire to talk with people who are so full of hate as to believe that the US government are willing to murder 3000 of its own citizen.

You spit on the memories of those who lost their loved ones, Myth, shame on you.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I have no desire to talk with people who are so full of hate as to believe that the US government are willing to murder 3000 of its own citizen

Governments kill their own citizens all the time. Not blatantly (unless they are perhaps a dictatorship), but discreetly through omission, misinformation, and corruption. As an off-the-wall example:

How many drugs that have been FDA approved turned out to be downright deadly to those taking them? People died as a direct result of government officials being in bed with pharmaceutical big-shots......murder in my book:shrug:

[HoreTore]

Governments kill their own citizens all the time. Not blatantly (unless they are perhaps a dictatorship), but discreetly through omission, misinformation, and corruption. As an off-the-wall example:

How many drugs that have been FDA approved turned out to be downright deadly to those taking them? People died as a direct result of government officials being in bed with pharmaceutical big-shots......murder in my book:shrug:

Not relevant at all to the act of crashing a plane into a tower.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Not relevant at all to the act of crashing a plane into a tower.

But relevant to your comment that the US government does not murder its' own citizens....it has, it does, and will continue to do so.


Whatever the future holds, it is chaos and greed that drives it--not some conspiracy.

I do not subscribe to a conspiracy theory.....as the answer to everything bad that happens to a people. But there are conspiracies that take place all the time. So.....


It is always prudent to examine the motives behind policies and laws and to treat skeptically what the government and media are telling you.

.....This.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Our government is so inept they can't even collect taxes without falling over themselves.

On the other hand, our government is also so devious and efficient that it was able to cause 9/11 without mainstream america realizing the truth.

:shrug:

[Tuuvi]

Governments kill their own citizens all the time. Not blatantly (unless they are perhaps a dictatorship), but discreetly through omission, misinformation, and corruption. As an off-the-wall example:

How many drugs that have been FDA approved turned out to be downright deadly to those taking them? People died as a direct result of government officials being in bed with pharmaceutical big-shots......murder in my book:shrug:

"The government" is a huge entity with many different organizations and interests, the motives and actions of some corrupt bureaucrats do not represent the motives of the government as a whole. I don't believe it would be too much of a stretch to assume that there are some people within the FDA who actually do care about food health and safety.

Knowingly approving dangerous drugs is appalling, but that is not the same as the whole government intentionally attacking its own citizens.

[Myth]

The FDA has approved some other gems like BGH (was made mandatory for cow farmers at some point even, right?), Monsanto's GM crops (the reason why USA agricultural exports have taken a massive plunge. Monsanto's lawyer was head of the FDA at some point), Aspartame (the then director of the FDA disallowed it, he was changed and approved the additive 3 months after his installment) and probably others but I haven't researched them too much.

Does it matter if it's a rich pharmaceutical company/chem company that is buying off the FDA or it's a conspiracy to keep the population sick? The end result is the same - you eat poisonous food. Some things are ven the result of Americans taking things over the top (a normally good trait to possess when talking about hygene or hard work) - that is water fluridation. Fluride in moderate amounts bonds with the structure of tooth enemael along with calcium and does improve dental resilence. But the amount of fluiride dumped in the water supply went to the point of having a negative effect on people's health.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I feel like I am reading /pol/ here.

Aspartame isn't bad for you btw. It's one of the most researched compounds ever created, and recent research has shown the scary 1970s tests to be methodologically flawed and/or not applicable to humans.

[HoreTore]

I feel like I am reading /pol/ here.

Aspartame isn't bad for you btw. It's one of the most researched compounds ever created, and recent research has shown the scary 1970s tests to be methodologically flawed and/or not applicable to humans.

Never let facts get in the way of a good conspiracy, ACIN. Who needs actual knowledge when you can get angry blog posts?

[Myth]

syria is the natural result of unresolved conflicts in syrian society fueled by economic downturn and regional spillover effects. T


The roots of the conflict in Syria lie not in three decades of suppression the respective Assad (Hafez and Bashar) regimes, but were simply the result of "The West".

Ironically this kind of "West" (or Israel) blaming is something we encounter a lot throughout the Middle-East itself: rather than facing problems on their own terms and trying to work towards realistic and viable goals, whenever something goes wrong, it's automatically blamed on "western/zionist interference".

Get a grip.


The third sentence of your OP reads:
Which puts it deep into idiot-land. Most of the rest fits the same category, like attributing the Syrian uprising to "western influence".
What never fails to amuse me is how those who claim our countries are not democratic enough are so quick to support confirmed dictators, like Assad.


http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/army-radio-french-officers-train-syrian-rebels-in-jordan-turkey/2013/06/19/

http://www.debka.com/search/?search_string=Turkish+officers

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/01/us-usa-syria-obama-order-idUSBRE8701OK20120801

[Myth]

I feel like I am reading /pol/ here.

Aspartame isn't bad for you btw. It's one of the most researched compounds ever created, and recent research has shown the scary 1970s tests to be methodologically flawed and/or not applicable to humans.

http://dorway.com/aspartame-the-bad-news-repost/peer-reviewed-aspartame-studies/

See some differences between industry funded and independent research?

[Fisherking]

There is very little in the way of scientific research studies less credible than American research studies. Most have a conclusion before they have the data.

Aspartame has been a politicized item since it was first approved. I think Donald Rumsfeld was head of FDA at the time, shortly after leaving Searle & Co. the inventor of NutraSweet.

[ReluctantSamurai]

"The government" is a huge entity with many different organizations and interests, the motives and actions of some corrupt bureaucrats do not represent the motives of the government as a whole. I don't believe it would be too much of a stretch to assume that there are some people within the FDA who actually do care about food health and safety.

I certainly did not mean to insinuate that the US government "as a whole" was negligent. And yes, there undoubtedly are people at the FDA who are concerned with protecting consumers from faulty products. However, it is often the case that the motives and actions of "some corrupt bureaucrats" go unpunished or the offenders even identified.

To continue with the faulty product example....public outcry eventually brings an investigation when enough people get sick or die; then a massive congressional investigation begins; the product is finally pulled from the market; the inevitable lawsuits begin and perhaps lead to substantial settlements (though probably not as much as the company made marketing the product); the faulty product is then shipped overseas to third world countries; and eventually the whole process starts all over again. Net result? Some people get very sick or die, the pharmaceutical at fault gets a slap on the wrist, has to pay a bunch of money to quiet things down, and nothing is done to actually fix the way the system works in the first place.

It's criminal, and it's murder in my book....but not necessarily a conspiracy~;)

[Montmorency]

Most have a conclusion before they have the data.

Pretty much sums up the conspiracy theorist, to harp.

Does anyone do mole people any longer? Not glamorous enough?

[Fisherking]

What an open mind you have. Not

Mathematics was once an occult science too, viewed as the work of the devil. I guess it still would be if everyone was as open to new way of looking at things.

I suppose there is no government corruption and they only work for the good of the common man.

Do lobbyists conspire with elected officials to pass laws benefiting themselves to the detriment of the people or other firms?

Do regulatory agencies conspire with those they are to regulate?

Have industries conspired to set prices on goods?

It does not have to have a world spanning scope to be a conspiracy.

It does not have to involve UFOs or Bigfoot, Maybe you are one of the Mole people. Put your head in the dirt and think all is well, I don’t see a thing.

So, do government agencies ever conspire to keep knowledge from the people, or punish those who blow the whistle on their shady activities?

[Montmorency]

What an open mind you have. Not

You believe your mind is open. Why? Because you believe things most do not?


Mathematics was once an occult science too, viewed as the work of the devil.

Whut. Laughable.


I guess it still would be if everyone was as open to new way of looking at things.

Mathematics is associated with civilization from its very outset, because mathematics is necessary for civilization. Mathematics produced results in ancient societies.

All that can not be compared to some sort of inchoate and incoherent paranoia.


I suppose there is no government corruption and they only work for the good of the common man.

Do lobbyists conspire with elected officials to pass laws benefiting themselves to the detriment of the people or other firms?

Do regulatory agencies conspire with those they are to regulate?

Have industries conspired to set prices on goods?

It does not have to have a world spanning scope to be a conspiracy.


What does that have to do with the Jewish-Illuminati lizard-alien New World Order? Let's not equivocate or resort to strawmen; you well know what sort of "conspiracy theory" is being mocked here.

We've stablished that by this point.

But seriously, that math-thing was a real error on your part. You'll be torn apart by Horetore for it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Because ideas are often labelled as "conspiracy theories" to discredit them, I think there is a bit of confusion as to why exactly falls under that banner.

Take for example Lemur's chart, which seems to label global warming as a conspiracy theory. EDIT: Global warming denial that is, silly me.

By conspiracy theory, do we man a wacky and highly improbable fringe theory? Or do we take the term more at face value - a conspiracy to a particular end between two or more parties?

The former covers mostly silly notions, but the latter is a fact of life, one of the most basic interactions between individuals or institutions.

[Montmorency]

Take for example Lemur's chart, which seems to label global warming as a conspiracy theory.


Global warming denial as a conspiracy theory. E.g. Frags

[Rhyfelwyr]

Global warming denial as a conspiracy theory. E.g. Frags

Ah, well now I look stupid.

Still, to run with that example... I don't think you are necessarily indulging in conspiracy theories if you deny global warming. Or, at least (as I think is implied), man-made global warming.

Sure, if people deny it because they think it is a scare tactic to raise taxes, or that scientists are forced to advocate it, then that is a conspiracy theory. But if you question the science, that's different.

That's why I think we are lumping too many things under the same banner - questioning the science of man-made global warming is nothing like reptilian or ancient astronaut theories. At least the former offers evidence that can be challenged, whereas the wackier theories can't be debunked - maybe that would be a good dividing line for where we enter the realm of 'conspiracy theories' (if we are going to use the term with all it's negative connotations, rather than its plain meaning).

[Myth]

This is pointless, as some have pointed out in PMs. No one even bothered reading and comprehending my first post, nor did they watch the videos I posted. I specifically said I wanted to talk politics and economics, and stray away from the occult side of conspiracy theories. Posters said Syria is a product of it's own making and that no one is conspiring to release harmful products for general consumption in the US of A. I gave links, they talked about reptillians and jews and patted each other on the backs because it feels so good to have others agree with you and jump the bandwagon. I really wanted to talk facts but you know what - it doesn't happen with some of the posters here.

[Montmorency]

Well, OK, let's invest some time into creating a typology of conspiracy theories suited to this thread.

1. Just the most literal and general meaning of a plan agreed upon by two or more parties. Can include anything from a lunch meeting between two colleagues to cartelization, insider trading, or high-level governmental corruption.

2. a. Theories that propose grand, sweeping 'hidden' intentional forces behind the majority of human events (e.g. state actions and international relations). This includes theories that propose the existence of a One World Government, a New World Order, alien origins behind human civilization and/or humanity itself, active alien or non-human overlords, Jewish bankers, Illuminati, all the good stuff.

b. Theories that propose that some or many or most phenomena perceived to be real can be explained as malicious totalitarian efforts by particular governments or corporations to weaken the freedom, will, independence, and so on, of their citizens/consumers in order to better control/profit from them. This includes chemtrails, fluoride, vaccines, 9/11, secret cancer/AIDS cures, mental illness/pharmaceuticals, faked moon landings, and so on.

c. Theories that propose that some set of individuals or organizations is out to get you specifically. For instance, that one theory that the US government directs agents to pass by targeted individuals in vehicles of a certain color merely in order to provoke or infuriate the individual somehow.

The categories of #2 may be counted as supervenient in order, I suppose.

That should do as a provisional typology; I think I've sketched some outlines, at least.

I notice that the pattern of #2 seems to be an extremely strong emphasis on control, intentionality, and egoism. But maybe that's tautological. What do you see?

I'll just note here that subscribers to one conspiracy theory often think that those who hold other conspiracy theories are nuts, especially if the two theories seem incompatible somehow.

[HoreTore]

When your third sentence in a post is a claim that Bin Laden was not responsible for 9/11, we are going to put you in the loonie bin.

I, and I suspect(and hope) many others here as well, do not wish to discuss ideas with people who proclaim such despicable, insulting and vile views.

If this board ever accepts holocaust deniars, 9/11 truthers or other people in that category, I'm certainly gone for good. I believe, and hope, that a large number of others will also leave at that point.

Seriously, yours is an incredibly offensive and idiotic statement.

[lars573]

This is pointless, as some have pointed out in PMs. No one even bothered reading and comprehending my first post, nor did they watch the videos I posted. I specifically said I wanted to talk politics and economics, and stray away from the occult side of conspiracy theories. Posters said Syria is a product of it's own making and that no one is conspiring to release harmful products for general consumption in the US of A. I gave links, they talked about reptillians and jews and patted each other on the backs because it feels so good to have others agree with you and jump the bandwagon. I really wanted to talk facts but you know what - it doesn't happen with some of the posters here.
Or maybe someone read your post. And understood. Then came to the logical conclusion you believe crazy horse shit. Two steps removed from the bat-shit insane reptilians/Jews/NWO/Aliens/Illuminati crap. That you patently ignore a plain and simple truism of the world, never assume malice when incompetence will do. And everything you've brought up as conspiracy theory (IE malice) can be easily explained as incompetence. Oh and greed of individuals leads to the incompetence of organizations.

I think you need to watch and understand this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWeh4A600E0
We all like to think we're Dent/the mod/Gordon, but really we're all the Joker.

[The Lurker Below]

I did not click on the Thrive movie link from the op until today. Subliminal thought implanted earlier (probably by any of several information agencies) caused me to equate the main character to the character played by Philip Seymour Hoffman in The Master. The same outside subliminal controls obviously caused me to not see The Master prior to this Tuesday past. I wish I had time to view the movie for more than 10 minutes, but I'm at work was taking a break during plan period.

I should make no comments regarding the possible gullibility or the heinous, guilty, corrupt, close-mindedness of others posting here.

[Fisherking]

@ Lurker, you may be the first to actually click the link. No one is asking anyone to change their minds or beliefs.

@ Montmorency


I didn’t know you could not read, very sorry.

You show more and more ignorance with each post.

You rant about thing I didn’t say invent things from whole cloth and assume you know things you obviously do not.

Do some more research before you run off at the mouth.

I have been trying to discuss what may be the real basis behind the theories and why people get the idea they are more than they seem. You know, misconceptions. Obviously you have a misconception about the whole thread.

You on the other hand don’t seem able to make an intellectual examination but use ridicule as your only tool.

[Montmorency]

I have been trying to discuss what may be the real basis behind the theories

Which theories? If they're from Category #2 over there, which by all indication they are, I'm afraid there's nothing to discuss.

[Fisherking]

I don’t know what Category #2 is. If it refers to the chart, that is just another distraction, and ridicule.

Much of what conspiracy theorist point out have a basis in truth, which most people ignore once the theorist point out who they believe is behind the curtain.

Other supposed conspiracies are true to a point but reach conclusions that are more a leap of faith than rooted in hard data.

Handling Conspiracy Theories with ridicule is a huge disservice to everyone, because ridicule has not data, is not rooted in fact and is the real straw man of the argument.

People who set out using ridicule only reinforce the idea that the truth of a conspiracy needs to be hidden from the public and that those doing the ridiculing are either themselves a part of the conspiracy or a dupe who knows nothing besides what his masters have told him.

If any of this is going to be unraveled it has to be done using thought and reason but approached with an open mind.

[Myth]

When your third sentence in a post is a claim that Bin Laden was not responsible for 9/11, we are going to put you in the loonie bin.

I, and I suspect(and hope) many others here as well, do not wish to discuss ideas with people who proclaim such despicable, insulting and vile views.

If this board ever accepts holocaust deniars, 9/11 truthers or other people in that category, I'm certainly gone for good. I believe, and hope, that a large number of others will also leave at that point.

Seriously, yours is an incredibly offensive and idiotic statement.

75% of the US population is not convinced that Bin Laden did it. But I suppose you know better. You didn't click a single link, did you?

@ Lurker, you may be the first to actually click the link. No one is asking anyone to change their minds or beliefs.


I clicked it and am watching it in inceremental steps of about 30 minutes per session. Will comment on it once I finish it.

[HoreTore]

75% of the US population is not convinced that Bin Laden did it. But I suppose you know better. You didn't click a single link, did you?

Then that's a sign 75% of the US population are idiots, nothing else.

Bin Laden was behind it, the US government/dem jooos/CIA/whatever was not. Claiming otherwise is a despicable statement I hope we'll never bother with on this board, just like I hope we'll never have someone here openly promoting holocaust denial.

It's a slap in the face of human intelligence, and an insult to every victim. Go away.

[Myth]

I'm not going away from a thread where I was invited to participate via PM. You on the other hand are free to abscond and treat that slap before it turns purple.

[HoreTore]

I'm not going away from a thread where I was invited to participate via PM. You on the other hand are free to abscond and treat that slap before it turns purple.

Evil deserves ridicule, and I'm quite happy to continue doing so.

[Montmorency]

If any of this is going to be unraveled it has to be done using thought and reason but approached with an open mind.

I am not ridiculing - merely pointing out that this is a self-serving illusion.

[Strike For The South]

This place used to have meaningful disscussion

The only meaningful point that has come out of this melodramatic circle jerk is that Hore Tore is a pompous ass

[HoreTore]

This place used to have meaningful disscussion

The only meaningful point that has come out of this melodramatic circle jerk is that Hore Tore is a pompous ass

I don't care what some poor guy without an oil fund has to say.

~;)

[Strike For The South]

Repost this if ur a proud strong nordic country who dont need no euro

[drone]

I have actually learned an important fact from this thread: the octosquids are running the whole show. The Illuminati/Bankers/NWO/Jews/Big Pharma make all the noise, no one notices the true masters. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

[Myth]

Then that's a sign 75% of the US population are idiots, nothing else.

Bin Laden was behind it, the US government/dem jooos/CIA/whatever was not. Claiming otherwise is a despicable statement I hope we'll never bother with on this board, just like I hope we'll never have someone here openly promoting holocaust denial.

It's a slap in the face of human intelligence, and an insult to every victim. Go away.

From this I learned that:

1. You think yourself smarter than at least 237 417 750 people (actually much more because a lot more people don't beleive the official 9/11 story)
2. You can't be bothered to chech the other side's proof or sources
3. You provide none of your own
4. You argue using logical fallacies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion) an intentionally linking them up to fabricate the other side as "EVIL"

Denying the holocaust means one says that those 6+ million people did not actually die and that someone is lying about it. Doubting the officiaL 9/11 story means that you DO acknowledge the death of all those people (and I personally am sorry for them) but you do not beleive the information about who actually did it and why. There is a difference but you obviously choose to act like a maiden who's butt has been pinched rather than start actually talking sense.

I still see no reply for the links showing that Syria was prepared well in avance or that Aspartame is definitely 100% proven to be safe.

[HoreTore]

As I have said, I am not willing to contribute to this forum being a place where despicable ideas like US involvement in 9/11 is discussed, and so you will not see any arguments at all from me on that subject. Ever. Not on any other subject either, as I see no reason to discuss with the likes of you.

I will, however, work as hard as I can to ridicule, belittle, harass and laugh at you, until you either leave or get a brain.

[Myth]

Pfft your pathetic attempts shall achieve nothing, as your opinion has no value for me.

[Ironside]

Aspartame is definitely 100% proven to be safe.

It's officially proven to not be safe. It's just that the official safe level lies around a daily consumption of slighly less than 5 liters of diet soda. I've not done some major checks but your link is including plenty of excessive dosage studies for example (aka what happens if we give 100 times above the recommended maximum?).
Of course those studies will say that it's bad.

It's depressive enough at it is without any conspiracy theories. The truth is that FDA and similar organisations can't keep up with proper checking of chemicals, so it becomes a "good enough" situation, where chemicals comes out before they're studied properly for long term, small dosage situations. In particular that cumulative effects between diffferent chemicals also occurs, but aren't really researched by the companies.

One major reason on why bromine compounds are so popular (they were even more popular, but a lot of uses are banned nowadays) is because bromine is a poisonous waste product. That poison effect seems to stick around, even in the compounds. If you don't recognize it, it's used in most flame retardants, among other uses.

[HoreTore]

It's officially proven to not be safe.

The poison is in the dosage, as it is with every substance known to man.

Everything is both poisonous and safe at the same time. This seems to be a fact the conspiracy theorists can't seem to wrap their heads around.

[lars573]

I personally think of poisonous as how much could you realistically consume to get to the toxicity point before your body can filter it out. Considering it's possible to poison yourself with potable water.

[Vladimir]

I personally think of poisonous as how much could you realistically consume to get to the toxicity point before your body can filter it out. Considering it's possible to poison yourself with potable water.

It's also great for motivating employees.

[Myth]

Of course none but the most addicted neckbeards drink 5 liters of any soft drink per day. But you can find Aspartame in a lot more things we consume on a daily basis, such as chewing gum, coffee sweetener, ice tea, cakes and so on. And yes, accumulation over the years has not been tested. It's safe to say that if it doesn't kill you outright the FDA will approve it given the right incentive, and most other countries will follow (seen "FDA approved" as a valid reason to approve something here)

[Fisherking]

Of course none but the most addicted neckbeards drink 5 liters of any soft drink per day. But you can find Aspartame in a lot more things we consume on a daily basis, such as chewing gum, coffee sweetener, ice tea, cakes and so on. And yes, accumulation over the years has not been tested. It's safe to say that if it doesn't kill you outright the FDA will approve it given the right incentive, and most other countries will follow (seen "FDA approved" as a valid reason to approve something here)

A doctor friend once told me that the problem with the stuff was when it is used in hot drinks, to cook with or when soda heats to over 80°F, that it breaks down in to more harmful components. But it still tastes sweet. She also said that, that also has an effect on the body that prevents normal weight loss. Pretty strange for a product people use to reduce weight or to cut calorie intake.

[Ironside]

A doctor friend once told me that the problem with the stuff was when it is used in hot drinks, to cook with or when soda heats to over 80°F, that it breaks down in to more harmful components. But it still tastes sweet. She also said that, that also has an effect on the body that prevents normal weight loss. Pretty strange for a product people use to reduce weight or to cut calorie intake.

Yes, that happens and those components are harmful but also occurs naturally in the body by higher concentrations (I'm going by official information here).

The wieght loss thing has to do with how the body works. Eating something sweet tells to body that sugar is on its way. Since no sugar is coming, that part of your body is going to get grumpy and wanting real sugar, increasing your sugar desire.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Eating something sweet tells to body that sugar is on its way. Since no sugar is coming, that part of your body is going to get grumpy and wanting real sugar, increasing your sugar desire.

The bad part about this is that insulin gets released in response to the false sugar alert. Since there is no additional sugar on the way, the excess insulin then targets any sugar it can find which usually leads to a drop in blood sugar levels which has the potential to cause some real problems for individuals who are sensitive to blood sugar levels. There should have been a warning for those who are hypoglycemic, to consume something that would provide free carbs to digest when an artificial sweetener is ingested...

[Fisherking]

I just could not resist.

Here is one of those conspiracies you never heard of.

Operation Mockingbird

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

Now, you watch the news. Do you think it ever ended?

[HoreTore]

I just could not resist.

Here is one of those conspiracies you never heard of.

Operation Mockingbird

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird

Now, you watch the news. Do you think it ever ended?

You're right. The news are full of praise for the president, and there's never, ever any criticism of the US government.

[Fisherking]

Pretty close.

What did Brzezinski say this week? That Obama’s failure to gain support was due to alternative media.

Well, damn! Sorry you might miss your favorite war.

[HoreTore]

But seriously, that math-thing was a real error on your part. You'll be torn apart by Horetore for it.

I missed this gem, sorry 'bout that.

Mathematics have historically been seen as a fundamental tool for understanding the "real purpose of life", ie. the divine. Mathematical theory have been advanced by religous figures from the very start of history, from calculating star movements to determine religous festivals to its absolute rules being seen as proof of a divine creator. Pythagoras based a philsophical-religious cult on his mathematical findings, for example.

Never has it been seen as heretical by any church, but has instead been fueled and advanced in large part by religious motivation. There have been a few cases of silly opposition to mathematics, but that fits within an anti-modernist movement, not a religous one( though anti-modernist tend to be religious), like when some idiots in the state wanted to pass a law defining pi as exactly 3...

[Fisherking]

Interesting,

So you are unaware of any of the various Inquisitions targeting Alchemist, Astrologers, Numerologists, and the like and that a knowledge of mathematics by a lay person or churchman of a different order made one a suspect of The Black Friars? Why, a Mathematician was synonymous with the practice of these foul arts and who you would go to in order to acquire knowledge of them.

And their practice was wide spread. Many people, including the powerful went to great lengths to conceal their birth information.

[HoreTore]

You lost all respect when you included astrology and numerology in your list of mathematics-related subjects. That's pseudo-science, not mathematics. Burn 'em at the stake, I say.

As I have said, there have been a few instances targeting mathematics, but they are few and mostly motivated by anti-modernism. The Catholic Church have always encouraged mathematics, and in post-roman Europe was almost the only ones keeping the art alive.

As far as I know, a Catholic theology study has mandatory mathematics courses. I'm not a 100% on whether this is universal or not, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[HoreTore]

Also, whenever a mathematicians senses danger, he simply withdraws to his community, believing there is safety in numbers.

[Fisherking]

Right, and the Church was also responsible for keeping Astrology and Numerology alive for a long time.

Interesting how you blame the messenger though. Are you sure you are not a Dominican?

[HoreTore]

Right, and the Church was also responsible for keeping Astrology and Numerology alive for a long time.

Interesting how you blame the messenger though. Are you sure you are not a Dominican?

The Church is based on pseudo-science(ie. religion), so just how surprising is it that they've branched out?

Still, that has very little to do with the fact that mathematics have been and still are an integral part of all religious life.

And what messenger?

[Fisherking]

It was this part. If I am not mistaken Astrology requires quite a bit of math, when done correctly.



You lost all respect when you included astrology and numerology in your list of mathematics-related subjects. That's pseudo-science, not mathematics. Burn 'em at the stake, I say.


And if you had studied to be a Dominican it would surely explain how you see heresies and heretics all around you.

But maybe that was too much Total War. :laugh4:

[HoreTore]

Astrology also requires you to lobotomize your brain, which is the reason it's counted as hogwash and not science.

And given that the end result of astrology is pure nonsense anyway, why on earth would you require any mathematics? You can just wave your fingers around to create nonsense, you don't even need to know multiplication to do that.

[Fisherking]

Astrology also requires you to lobotomize your brain, which is the reason it's counted as hogwash and not science.

And given that the end result of astrology is pure nonsense anyway, why on earth would you require any mathematics? You can just wave your fingers around to create nonsense, you don't even need to know multiplication to do that.



Is that more like Freudian Psychiatry or Global Warming Computer Models?

[HoreTore]

His point was that the very old methods of astrology are steeped in calculations. Mysticism and mumbo jumbo, but also a driving force in the furthering of Math in ancient India, and other places.

You will soon discover that it was astronomy which furthered both religion and mathematics, while astrology is and have always been the domain of the insane.

Ancient India is an unnecessary specification though, as all civilizations have invented mathematics, and they've all done it the same way: by gazing at the stars and calculated movements, and keeping track of their grain warehouses.

[HoreTore]

Are you capable of conceding a point?

Nope.

26 years of socialist indoctrination, what do you expect?

[HoreTore]

Fair enough, I suck at it too. I'm just saying that without Astrology, we might not have math. If the other side effect of that ancient school of study is irrational superstition then that is just lovable irony.

NO.

Without astronomy, we'd might not have math.

Astrology is something else entirely.

We invented complex math by trying to figure out the circumference of the earth and the distance to the moon - NOT by figuring out whether those born in August are happier than those born September.

[HoreTore]

If you went back in time and tried to point out the difference to an ancient babylonian, he'd call you a heretic and sacrifice you to the same gods you just said he wasn't trying to calculate the moods of. You can't separate the superstitions and the "science" of ancient peoples so easily.

Fine - all sciences have their dirty secrets. Darwinism has Hitler, astronomy has astrology.

[HoreTore]

And the Socialist model for viewing history and human progress has its Stalin. :creep:

Get with the times bro, most marxists today have long since rejected class struggle as a basis for history along with the dialectic nonsense...

Well, at least the sane ones have.

[HoreTore]

Its not a bad model for viewing history in a social context. History is big, and class struggles have been a defining factor in all large and impactful nations, and is likely to be a major factor in the future globalized world. I'm really not an expert on modern Socialism though.

Yeah....... A quick "Marxism 101" would be to take what you wrote there, and then twist it into lala-land.

The struggle between the Haves and the Have-nots, peasant and lord, proletariat and capitalist, or whatever you want to call it, is undoubtedly a major feature of human history. No sign of it being less important in the future either.

The first sign of sillyness comes when the Marxist elevates this feature so high it becomes the sole method of explaining history. Remember racism, gender issues, religious differences, cultures, etc? All irrelevant to the Marxist, they are but symptoms of the class struggle, and have no independent meaning.

Then, of course, comes silly point #2: this nice theory has to fit into an arbitrary philosophical system, Dialectics. Suffice to say, when 10.000 years of history plus the future is crammed into a system with only three stages, it tends get messy....

[HopAlongBunny]

Throw out class? The dialectic!?

I...I...I feel alienated :stare:

[HopAlongBunny]

America Burning!
Let us not rule out aliens or intergalactic elves!

http://wonkette.com/528533/wingnuts-figure-islamic-terrorists-are-better-explanation-for-wildfires-than-global-warming-carelessness-lightning#more-528533

[Husar]

On the topic of the Intelligence Community, this is a really wonderful interview:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/429044/september-12-2013/philip-mudd

I think it's the first time I really, seriously disliked a guest.
We can only hope that his "hint" that his boses are/act like him is not true because he seems like a dangerous psychopath to me. :stare:

[rvg]

On the topic of the Intelligence Community, this is a really wonderful interview:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/429044/september-12-2013/philip-mudd

I think it's the first time I really, seriously disliked a guest.
We can only hope that his "hint" that his boses are/act like him is not true because he seems like a dangerous psychopath to me. :stare:

Just watched this.... I actually ended up disliking Colbert; he behaved like a total ass. Mudd carried himself with dignity and professionalism.

[rvg]

He's a method acting satirist. You never thought he was for real did you?

Many of his guests, especially earlier on, never got that.

This time he was quite different from his usual performance: very abrasive, condescending and downright disrespectful towards his guest. Very unbecoming of him as a host.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Colbert has acknowledged that his character is supposed to be an ass for everyone, but when he is genuinely interested in what someone is saying he tunes it down. Not the best, but he acknowledges his bias and he isn't a journalist in the first place.

[Husar]

Just watched this.... I actually ended up disliking Colbert; he behaved like a total ass. Mudd carried himself with dignity and professionalism.

Dignity and professionalism?
First of all he was on a comedy show, if he didn't know how Colbert does his interviews then he must've done some shabby research for someone from the intelligence community...
And while I somewhat agree with his assessment of the value of TV in a general sense (think reality TV etc.), it was nowhere near polite or professional to say that on a TV show that he was trying to use to sell his stuff.
Then he professionally flip-flopped between "we shouldn't torture (anymore) because the majority of Americans does not want us to" and "we should attack Syria because the majority of Americans are all just cowards afraid to do the right thing". That he thinks torturing is only wrong because a majority of the people who pay his wage says so also tells us a lot about his moral compass.
His arguments might even remind one of Nuremberg except that he's on the victorious side so far.

Oh and I loved how "we're not just american citizens, we're global citizens" resonates with the government's argument of "don't worry about the NSA, they only spy on foreigners". Basically he's bending everything in a way that suits him and his agenda and since he represented the government's agenda for 25 years that says something IMO.

[Myth]

Has anyone actually watched Fisherking's video in the OP of this thread? Does anyone have any comments?

[rvg]

Dignity and professionalism?
First of all he was on a comedy show, if he didn't know how Colbert does his interviews then he must've done some shabby research for someone from the intelligence community...
And while I somewhat agree with his assessment of the value of TV in a general sense (think reality TV etc.), it was nowhere near polite or professional to say that on a TV show that he was trying to use to sell his stuff.
Then he professionally flip-flopped between "we shouldn't torture (anymore) because the majority of Americans does not want us to" and "we should attack Syria because the majority of Americans are all just cowards afraid to do the right thing". That he thinks torturing is only wrong because a majority of the people who pay his wage says so also tells us a lot about his moral compass.
His arguments might even remind one of Nuremberg except that he's on the victorious side so far.

Oh and I loved how "we're not just american citizens, we're global citizens" resonates with the government's argument of "don't worry about the NSA, they only spy on foreigners". Basically he's bending everything in a way that suits him and his agenda and since he represented the government's agenda for 25 years that says something IMO.

He is a CIA guy. People who join the CIA tend to put their moral compass on hold and do whatever needs to be done to further the interests of this country. American interest should be (and apparently is) the only motivation behind this guy's actions. When he had the tools needed to make a terrorist squeal, he used them. All of them. Now that some of his tools have been taken away he vouches to only use what he is allowed to use. Moral or not, there's a high chance that this guy's actions have contributed to us capping Bin Laden. He is not a nice guy, he is a CIA officer, he's not paid to be a nice guy, he's paid to be a guy who gets things done.

[Ethelred Unread]

Has anyone actually watched Fisherking's video in the OP of this thread? Does anyone have any comments?

Man, that video is over 2 hours long. Very little evidence presented unless you can give me time stamps to look at.

Seems to be usual Gish-gallop of ideas without evidence, coincidences and anomaly hunting.

[Husar]

He is a CIA guy. People who join the CIA tend to put their moral compass on hold and do whatever needs to be done to further the interests of this country. American interest should be (and apparently is) the only motivation behind this guy's actions. When he had the tools needed to make a terrorist squeal, he used them. All of them. Now that some of his tools have been taken away he vouches to only use what he is allowed to use. Moral or not, there's a high chance that this guy's actions have contributed to us capping Bin Laden. He is not a nice guy, he is a CIA officer, he's not paid to be a nice guy, he's paid to be a guy who gets things done.

So did Putin, yet he doesn't seem to get a lot of respect for being a professional.

And you agree that the whole "let's be global citizens" thing is just a propaganda tool to lead Americans into the next war that serves American interests? That American interests in this case serve the American population is doubtful though, given that a majority of the population seems to be against it. Mudd even agrees with Colbert that Americans need to be lead in this case, which runs somewhat counter to his point that the populace should decide what the intelligence services do. So do the people decide or do they have to be lead?

Or is there a person or a group in or near the government that decides when to listen and when to lead like a benevolent dictatorship/oligarchy?

[rvg]

So did Putin, yet he doesn't seem to get a lot of respect for being a professional.
Respect? Depends on what you mean by that. What about Putin is worthy of respect? He's an extremely smart guy and basically a natural born politician. He is pragmatic to the extreme and harbors no illusions about dogma, be it political or religious. He crushed an islamist rebellion and brought some semblance of control into an otherwise very shaky and restless region of North Caucasus. Yes, all those things are worthy of respect.
At the same time he presides over a brutal, shameless cleptocracy that robs and oppresses its people, and he does not lift a finger to change things. That is not really anything worthy of respect.


And you agree that the whole "let's be global citizens" thing is just a propaganda tool to lead Americans into the next war that serves American interests? That American interests in this case serve the American population is doubtful though, given that a majority of the population seems to be against it. Mudd even agrees with Colbert that Americans need to be lead in this case, which runs somewhat counter to his point that the populace should decide what the intelligence services do. So do the people decide or do they have to be lead?
In Mudd's opinion America stands to gain something from overthrowing Assad. I happen to disagree with that, but he is entitled to have his opinion and to defend it.


Or is there a person or a group in or near the government that decides when to listen and when to lead like a benevolent dictatorship/oligarchy?
That's how conspiracy theories begin :laugh4:

[Husar]

At the same time he presides over a brutal, shameless cleptocracy that robs and oppresses its people, and he does not lift a finger to change things.

So does every American president. If you think it's not true, ask the opposition party at any given point in time, lately they seem even more convinced on both sides.


In Mudd's opinion America stands to gain something from overthrowing Assad. I happen to disagree with that, but he is entitled to have his opinion and to defend it.

Yes, and every American president who agrees with him robs and oppresses people outside of America in addition to the above. Does that foster respect?



That's how conspiracy theories begin :laugh4:

I'm just drawing conclusions from mister Mudd's words. At one time he says the CIA does what the people want, at another he says the CIA needs to lead the people, what is it now? Or is it just the CIA does whatever it wants until the people accidentally find out and complain?

[rvg]

So does every American president. If you think it's not true, ask the opposition party at any given point in time, lately they seem even more convinced on both sides.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


Yes, and every American president who agrees with him robs and oppresses people outside of America in addition to the above. Does that foster respect?
Your statement begs the question.


I'm just drawing conclusions from mister Mudd's words. At one time he says the CIA does what the people want, at another he says the CIA needs to lead the people, what is it now? Or is it just the CIA does whatever it wants until the people accidentally find out and complain?
CIA is the arm of the government. As such it takes orders from the government rather than the people directly. Most of the time the interests of the government coincide with the interests of the people. Most of the time, but not always.

[Fisherking]

CIA is the arm of the government. As such it takes orders from the government rather than the people directly. Most of the time the interests of the government coincide with the interests of the people. Most of the time, but not always.


The interests of the government almost never coincide with the best interests of the people. But the people don’t have a well developed propaganda arm and the public seems often easily fooled. Most of the time, but not always.

The US is also a cleptocracy, if you haven’t noticed. They take from the people and give to corporations who in-turn give back to elected officials to buy your votes.

[rvg]

The US is also a cleptocracy, if you haven’t noticed. They take from the people and give to corporations who in-turn give back to elected officials to buy your votes.

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

You need a first hand experience with a real cleptocracy.

[Myth]

Man, that video is over 2 hours long. Very little evidence presented unless you can give me time stamps to look at.

Seems to be usual Gish-gallop of ideas without evidence, coincidences and anomaly hunting.

Sources (http://www.thrivemovement.com/fact_checks) for every subtopic in the entire movie.

Also, check this (http://www.thrivemovement.com/reality-check) test out.

[Fisherking]

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

You need a first hand experience with a real cleptocracy.

Right! cause your friends told you and you saw it on TV.

[rvg]

Right! cause your friends told you and you saw it on TV.
Yeah, what could I possibly know about Russia? I was only born and raised there...

[HoreTore]

Sources (http://www.thrivemovement.com/fact_checks) for every subtopic in the entire movie.

Also, check this (http://www.thrivemovement.com/reality-check) test out.

Hilarious. Simply hilarious.

[lars573]

Complete and utter lunacy from otherwise sane people usually is.


Sources (http://www.thrivemovement.com/fact_checks) for every subtopic in the entire movie.

Also, check this (http://www.thrivemovement.com/reality-check) test out.
Most of that propaganda, sorry "facts", only give half the story to trick idiots and the gullible. And don't get me started on that test. I could take my paranoid schizophrenic cousin off his anti-psychotics and he'd start spouting WAY more sense than that bullshit test.

[Ethelred Unread]

Sources (http://www.thrivemovement.com/fact_checks) for every subtopic in the entire movie.

Also, check this (http://www.thrivemovement.com/reality-check) test out.

It's a good list of logical fallacies, but it isn't proof.

Myth do you have any knowledge or training in critical thinking or logic? This isn't to patronise you (and this may read that way in text which is not my intention).

If we can agree on what "rules" to use to discuss these topics, burden of proof etc then we can have a discussion if you like.

For example - I try and use logic where possible to identify flaws in an argument (but I'm far from perfect). I use logic because this is a system of critical thinking that you can always apply to ideas and evidence.

Can we agree that this system is the one we should apply to these conspiracy theories?

[Myth]

I don't have any formal training. While the entire thrive movement is funded by the Procter & Gamble corporation and ultimately serves dubous ends, I don't think you can dispute the facts.

Is the FED a goverment organization? No.
Does the US borrow worthless dollar bills from it? Yes.
Actually, the value of the dollar also comes from the fact that oil is sold in green bills. The moment someone decides to sell oil in another currency, they get democracised with bombs (Lybia, Iraq). Because if that happens the dollar would tank.
Are the major corporations and banks playing in league? Yes.
Do banks create inflation because they make money out of thin air? Yes.

So what is there to dispute, seriously?

[Ethelred Unread]

Ok, before we get onto specifics, can we go back to first principles and see what we do agree on?

My assumptions:-

1. The physical world is real and not a dream/hallucination.
2. Causes have effects, and the results can be observed.
3. Logical reasoning is the framework we apply to ALL phenomena.

Ok, do we agree on that? I'm not trying to trick you - these are the fundamentals of how I think critically. If you have a different system then we need to gain consensus on that first!

[lars573]

I don't have any formal training. While the entire thrive movement is funded by the Procter & Gamble corporation and ultimately serves dubous ends, I don't think you can dispute the facts.

Is the FED a goverment organization? No.
Does the US borrow worthless dollar bills from it? Yes.
Actually, the value of the dollar also comes from the fact that oil is sold in green bills. The moment someone decides to sell oil in another currency, they get democracised with bombs (Lybia, Iraq). Because if that happens the dollar would tank.
Are the major corporations and banks playing in league? Yes.
Do banks create inflation because they make money out of thin air? Yes.

So what is there to dispute, seriously?
So you're just going to cherry pick 5 things from that list that are somewhat reasonable, and go on and ignore the bat-shit insane stuff? Well that's just great. :dizzy2:

[lars573]

~NM

[Montmorency]

3. Logical reasoning is the framework we apply to ALL phenomena.

It's important to keep in mind though that logic is a framework for thinking, and not necessarily a framework for being.

[Myth]

Ok, before we get onto specifics, can we go back to first principles and see what we do agree on?

My assumptions:-

1. The physical world is real and not a dream/hallucination.
2. Causes have effects, and the results can be observed.
3. Logical reasoning is the framework we apply to ALL phenomena.

Ok, do we agree on that? I'm not trying to trick you - these are the fundamentals of how I think critically. If you have a different system then we need to gain consensus on that first!
Yes. Go on.

lars573 well please, pick five of the most insane things and post them.

[Ethelred Unread]

It's important to keep in mind though that logic is a framework for thinking, and not necessarily a framework for being.

I think I agree with you, but can you clarify? I think you mean that logic and emotion don't naturally sit well together?

To clarify my point - yes this is for critical thinking only though you can start a new thread on living philosophically if you want!

Myth excellent! Just a few more things to agree on then we can look at the claims in the video. These next 3 are what I hope puts me in the critical thinker/rationalist/sceptic camp.

1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
2. The most likely explanation is usually the right one (good old Occam)
3. I'm no expert in any field (except maybe ways to exploit at TW AI) so generally I go with a consensus view so long as it follows all previous points, is peer reviewed and is recognisably science.

That last one is the tricky slippery one, we don't have to agree on that point but this is where we could reach an impasse.

Still with me?

[Montmorency]

I think you mean that logic and emotion don't naturally sit well together?

That is, logic is a layer of abstractions that is successful in explaining the abstractions we can perceive. But no more.

[Ethelred Unread]

That is, logic is a layer of abstractions that is successful in explaining the abstractions we can perceive. But no more.

I don't understand. What more is there than the abstractions we can perceive? Is abstractions we can perceive synonymous with reality?

[Montmorency]

What more is there than the abstractions we can perceive?

The universe?


Is abstractions we can perceive synonymous with reality?

Only in a parochial sense.

Logic is just a means to process what we can perceive. It ignores the fundamental uniqueness of everything. It gerrymanders categories.

[lars573]

lars573 well please, pick five of the most insane things and post them.
Just 5?

-Crop circles
-Electromagnetic fields in crop circles
-Kimberly Gamble on Suppression of Alternative Cancer Cures
-Royal Rife's Cancer Cure and Suppression
-9/11 False Flag

[Beskar]

First crop circle was a joker who used a plank of wood to cause the grain to bend over without breaking it, and it stumped people as they didn't know how it was done until he revealed his secret years later and it can be easily reproduced.