View Full Version : Civil War Trigger
VAE VICTUS
09-26-2013, 07:16
I'm 175 turns into a Parthia campaign, and I've over extended myself. I pulled my armies back, fearing a civil war due to low influence. Nothing happened. I decided to trigger, so I got my influence down to 1%. Nothing. 25 turns later nothing. Is CW only triggered by influence over 75%(ish), or is it just random?
I think it is pretty random at times. As Parthia, I think a low influence should trigger it. If you are very high as a kingdom, it doesn't matter. Or shouldn't anyways.
AntiDamascus
09-26-2013, 14:17
There were a couple of discussions here that talked about the trigger for a CW. It was somewhat more complex than that I think.
There is a load screen tip that specificly mentions ambition as the thing to lookout for as leading to civil wars. I don't know hot that ties with peoples experiences, as i never got that far, so far.
Someone was posting about this at the .com site.
In his particular case the ultimate trigger was a statesman from another family with an ambition of 3.
But quite a few posters say there's a lot of randomness to the civil war trigger.
here's the thread if you want to read it. The discussion gets better a few pages in.
http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/97333-Civil-War-Trigger-DISCOVERED
From the ingame Encyclopedia
"in a tribe or monarchy any show of weakness may be challenged, again leading to civil war."
"high ambition can lead to a bid for power through civil war"
easytarget
09-26-2013, 23:25
I've no idea what just triggered it in my campaign. As a game mechanic it needs some work both in terms of documentation and the politics implementation in general.
I'm not that distressed by it, it's the first interesting thing to happen in my campaign in 50 years, so honestly I welcome the diversion of having 10 stacks of uber Romans drop out of the sky like they teleported down from the enterprise right on top of Macedonia. And they are in fact wreaking havoc all over the place because they immediately proceeded to snag settlements and hit the ocean in every direction possible.
I also have to say I'm envious of their color scheme, could be I just like the change, but either way, the nice blue colors they are sporting look nice.
Anyway, no idea what triggered it, I was in the 30's. been managing everyone so they stayed even with me, never too low, never too high, just to see if it was avoidable, apparently it's not, which is a shame in and of itself, it should be possible to manage politics to avoid it, otherwise what's the point of politics, just ignore it and the event will randomly kick in anyway, or game it and cause it to trigger early to avoid the number of stacks I'm facing now (if you can figure out what causes it). Oh, imperium was in the last section, but by no means pegged.
Go figure. But hey, least I've got something to do for the next 5 or 10 years, haha...
VAE VICTUS
09-27-2013, 01:46
on this forum? i didnt see them, I'd really like to know when to expect CW, I guess that is why it is the way it is.
Bramborough
09-27-2013, 02:00
on this forum? i didnt see them, I'd really like to know when to expect CW, I guess that is why it is the way it is.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?145501-Civil-War-(playing-as-Rome)
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?145581-Civil-War-(not-Rome)
In addition to the discussions themselves, toward the end of the first thread Hooahguy linked a good vid about the internal politics system.
Someone was posting about this at the .com site.
In his particular case the ultimate trigger was a statesman from another family with an ambition of 3.
But quite a few posters say there's a lot of randomness to the civil war trigger.
here's the thread if you want to read it. The discussion gets better a few pages in.
http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/97333-Civil-War-Trigger-DISCOVERED
From the ingame Encyclopedia
"in a tribe or monarchy any show of weakness may be challenged, again leading to civil war."
"high ambition can lead to a bid for power through civil war"
That discussion is such a pain the ass to read.
That discussion is such a pain the ass to read.
Yeah, it is. There are some decent nuggets of information in there, though.
The .com site can be a mixed bag.
Hmm... So, assassinating everyone with more than 1 ambition and keeping Gravitas in the so-so levels for everyone could stall civil war I suppose?
easytarget
09-28-2013, 22:58
But is it inevitable?
Play a campaign and see how long you can delay it.
easytarget
09-29-2013, 00:31
I am, and I delayed it for a long time, but it still happened.
So, question I'm asking is, is it inevitable?
I'm not sure. I remember someone saying it will happen sooner or later, no matter what I do but I have not figured it out myself yet.
easytarget
09-29-2013, 16:26
So far from the main forum discussions I've seen the impression generally is that it's inevitable. I don't care actually whether it is, I consider it just a part of the fatally broken politics of the game anyway, the whole thing needs re-doing.
What's really ultimately rather pathetic about it is it doesn't even accomplish it's goal of making the mid or late game hard. It's easy enough to deal with the Star Trek style teleporting in stacks, so the real irony is that this is a failed attempt at RD in R2. I mean come on, at least with RD in S2 the impact of the divide meant you had your hands full with an entire island bent on your destruction for the remainder of the campaign, and in fact, they kept getting madder at you as time went on.
Here, I deal with the red shirts that beam down (they were blue actually, but I've got to stay with the ST theme) and what happens to the borked half baked politics? It stops working altogether. So the mechanism that was so half baked gives up the ghost entirely and just stops working for the remainder of the campaign. I mean really CA? Really?
Nothing now could be easier than the remainder of this boring campaign, I take my 12 chevron'd up stacks and march all over the known world taking whatever I want wherever I want.
I've said this before and I'll say it again, if I didn't know better, I'd swear that parts of this game were farmed out for design and execution to people who had never laid eyes on S2.
It is a little stupid that after a civil war, internal politics just stop working.
easytarget
09-30-2013, 01:30
Yeah, right now I find that and my inability to establish trade with 20 factions very annoying. To secure every victory condition and still be faced with the inability to win the campaign is beyond annoying. I've offered factions 3-400k for trade and been turned down flat. That's insane. In fact, just so we're clear about just how utterly retarded this component of the game is, there aren't 20 factions in the entire world i can trade with at this point even if they were willing to trade.
So, now I'm stuck I guess switching to military or cultural to finish.
To the OP: What was your Imperium? The civil war likelihood seems to be tied to imperium too. The higher the imperium the more likely the CW is. In my campaigns it almost always triggers once I reach the 3rd Imperium level.
Yeah, right now I find that and my inability to establish trade with 20 factions very annoying. To secure every victory condition and still be faced with the inability to win the campaign is beyond annoying. I've offered factions 3-400k for trade and been turned down flat. That's insane. In fact, just so we're clear about just how utterly retarded this component of the game is, there aren't 20 factions in the entire world i can trade with at this point even if they were willing to trade.
So, now I'm stuck I guess switching to military or cultural to finish.
Should have made vassals, not outright conquered everyone. Even if at the start vassals refuse trade, they tend to come back and offer it later (for free, mind you).
easytarget
10-04-2013, 00:19
And vassals, or as they are called now, client states, are not inclined to trade with you any more than anyone else is. Another design flaw in my opinion. In S2 if you asked it defaulted to yes, as it should be, no client state should have the right to extort money or outright refuse trade with the parent who could just obliterate you off the face of the earth for your impertinent jackal like behavior, which is exactly what I did every time it came up.
This game is so broken in a lot of small ways like this and suffers the death of a thousand cuts as a result to immersion and enjoyment. If this had followed empire I would have expected, following Shogun 2, I'm insulted.
And vassals, or as they are called now, client states, are not inclined to trade with you any more than anyone else is. Another design flaw in my opinion. In S2 if you asked it defaulted to yes, as it should be, no client state should have the right to extort money or outright refuse trade with the parent who could just obliterate you off the face of the earth for your impertinent jackal like behavior, which is exactly what I did every time it came up.
This game is so broken in a lot of small ways like this and suffers the death of a thousand cuts as a result to immersion and enjoyment. If this had followed empire I would have expected, following Shogun 2, I'm insulted.
Give the vassals some time to "cool their head". They tend to come back and offer the trade themselves after a few turns.
easytarget
10-04-2013, 23:36
Yeah, occasionally they come back. Point is there should never, and I do mean never, be a situation in any TW game where the amount you are being requested to pay your client state to trade with you is 100x what that trade will net in return over the life of the campaign. Not only did this happen to me, it happened A LOT. And by mid to late game I didn't have 20 factions capable of trading with me in total left in the campaign, even if they all agreed to it, it was physically impossible to obtain an economic victory.
That's a sanity test as to whether you are playing a broken game mechanic, and for my money, both examples above are proof this game was not play tested properly.
Well, they patched it, now everyone trades with you, kind of like it was in Rome 1/M2, where the minute a diplomat got anywhere near another faction's stuff, the questions for trade agreements went out.
Yeah, occasionally they come back. Point is there should never, and I do mean never, be a situation in any TW game where the amount you are being requested to pay your client state to trade with you is 100x what that trade will net in return over the life of the campaign. Not only did this happen to me, it happened A LOT. And by mid to late game I didn't have 20 factions capable of trading with me in total left in the campaign, even if they all agreed to it, it was physically impossible to obtain an economic victory.
That's a sanity test as to whether you are playing a broken game mechanic, and for my money, both examples above are proof this game was not play tested properly.
Now, in patch 4 beta, if they come to you asking for money in exchange for trade, non-aggression: just reverse the offer. Ask THEM for money for the same thing. In many cases they agree. This is on VH campaign difficulty.
easytarget
10-05-2013, 19:13
Well, they patched it, now everyone trades with you, kind of like it was in Rome 1/M2, where the minute a diplomat got anywhere near another faction's stuff, the questions for trade agreements went out.
Yeah, why drive down the middle of the road when you can just go from one guardrail to the other.
AntiDamascus
10-05-2013, 20:47
"Went from one extreme to the other"
Well, I wasn't gonna say anything since before now everyone complained about the AI never wanting to trade, now it trades with everyone and people still get annoyed ^^
I just remember in Rome 1 and Medieval 2, as soon as your diplomat ran into another faction's diplomat, it was like "Hi, trade right and map information?" -"Trade right and map information." *handshake* "Good day!"
easytarget
10-06-2013, 16:39
Don't get me wrong, I like this guard rail better. ;)
On to another topic:
Not sure if this is new with the patches, but I am running into minor factions sitting on one settlement with 3-4 stacks going no where. You'd think they'd program them to expand.
Which also made me think of the major factions, say a Carthage or Athens, or even Rome if you are playing someone else, why would CA not program them to seek out and complete AT THE VERY LEAST, the province that is their home turf? I can't count the number of times the majors are wiped in my campaigns, not least of which because bandit barbarians or other factions raid them of a settlement or two, they respond by doing jack all about it, and then just slowly die off.
If you are going to create a province system, script the AI to at least at some rudimentary level pay attention to expanding back to fill out the province, this needs to be done because holding down the capital often will lead to starvation, something I also run into all to often.
To say that someone at CA play tested this is a joke. Everything I've ever written about that's messed about this game here or at the main forum should have been caught by anyone playing through this once, just once. Ever.
I think at the very least, AIs should attempt to unite the province they start in. It's kind of silly to see... The Helvetii or whatever they are called (Octuduron, north west of Medhlan/Milan, northern Italy) always build up to having a massive amount of people defending their little hovel of a town (3 20 stacks in my last campaign) and do absolutely nothing with it... Nothing until you attack them anyways.
AntiDamascus
10-06-2013, 17:31
It should be like in other Total War games, a city turns rogue and you have to get it back.
It should be like in other Total War games, a city turns rogue and you have to get it back.
Yeah that is what it is like but the AI never cares =P
AntiDamascus
10-06-2013, 17:39
"People of.... wherever! I liberate you from the oppression of... Ooooo candy"
I was really disappointed with the civil war. Those legions outnumbering me almost 2 to 1 took the entire province of Roma in 2 turns and then... just sat there. I kid you not. While my veterans hauled back from the far end of Egypt and I recruited almost a fuill legion in Magna Graecia, the Senate loyalists just camped in Roma.
When I did arrive and gathered all 4 legions for a slow and methodical push, the enemy had literally starved to death. The loyalist legions were down to about 15% unit strength... It was a very anti-climatic massacre.
easytarget
10-19-2013, 01:08
Yeah, there's been a lot of discussion at the main forum about how disappointing this is, so I expect CA to work to improve it. It really does need some help.
Empire*Of*Media
10-22-2013, 13:45
i went with Rome (i will go for great Parthia late!! anyway!) now my influenced raised to 58.
with marriage reduced to 53 and i even killed all my characters and brough low ambition & gravitas characters but influence did not reduced
after one turn 60-70 full units were raised in Epidamnos (dont know why there!!) !! i have absolutely nothing to stop them,,,,,,,despite i like civil war but...NOT NOW when i have enemies and many unconquered lands!!!
what should i do or even a trick or cheat to reduce or stop civil war FOR NOW ?!!
plz helpppppppppppp meeeeeeeeeeeeee !!!
You mean 50-70 units distributed among armies (so 3-4 fullstacks) or 50-70 stacks which would be really strange? Anyway my advice is to gather your forces and don't panick. They will starve out. The bigger the enemy, the faster he will starve out.
Empire*Of*Media
10-22-2013, 15:12
You mean 50-70 units distributed among armies (so 3-4 fullstacks) or 50-70 stacks which would be really strange? Anyway my advice is to gather your forces and don't panick. They will starve out. The bigger the enemy, the faster he will starve out.
some full stacks some half. but they are very alot and the worst is they are near my capital Epidamnos>>>>>>Rome, Near!
and the worst matter is that after i updated to patch4 im starving too!! food surplus is -21!!
what should i do for stopping civil war?! my armies are too much far from my enemies while they are near my Capital!
Reconfigure your settlements for more food production. Fight with as many armies that reinforce each other as possisble. Isolate enemy armies using agent actions.
Empire*Of*Media
10-22-2013, 23:11
Reconfigure your settlements for more food production. Fight with as many armies that reinforce each other as possisble. Isolate enemy armies using agent actions.
دNO! i just want some way to stop civil war before triggering it! i have only one turne to civil war im completely unable to stand against senate loyalists!!
Hooahguy
10-22-2013, 23:20
You cant stop the civil war from happening, its bound to happen sooner or later. You cant stop it.
Empire*Of*Media
10-22-2013, 23:35
i mean DELAY it! now im in the worst situation how can i stand against 0 stacks of full army with only 4 full army?!?!
i should assassinate who or do what ?!
can i upload my save that u find a solution or something for me?!
You're not using patch 5 so we will probably mess up your save. You have to not use a general for battles if he has anything more than 1 in ambition. High gravitas characters you have to get rid of - I'd say yours and the enemy, depending on balance. You have to stop conquering new lands as that seems to be part of the trigger as well. But that's only temporary if you've gotten to that point it's probably beyond reversing.
Empire*Of*Media
10-22-2013, 23:59
You're not using patch 5 so we will probably mess up your save. You have to not use a general for battles if he has anything more than 1 in ambition. High gravitas characters you have to get rid of - I'd say yours and the enemy, depending on balance. You have to stop conquering new lands as that seems to be part of the trigger as well. But that's only temporary if you've gotten to that point it's probably beyond reversing.
i did not got u friend!! because i killed all my generals and characters and now the new ones have very less ambition & gravitas!!
but still influence is 53%!! no what should i do in this 1 TURN!! dont u think assasination solves?! but who?!
plz help me i have not played for 2 days dont know what to do im depressed :D!!
Hooahguy
10-23-2013, 00:12
You cant prevent it in just one turn. Stop trying to change that.
I would try to fight it out. Every town the rebels besiege fight them with your garrisons, whittle them down until you can bring in your other armies to finally defeat them. And if you lose? So what? Its a video game! If you lose, start again fresh, with the knowledge that you have gained from the last campaign.
Empire*Of*Media
10-23-2013, 00:23
You cant prevent it in just one turn. Stop trying to change that.
I would try to fight it out. Every town the rebels besiege fight them with your garrisons, whittle them down until you can bring in your other armies to finally defeat them. And if you lose? So what? Its a video game! If you lose, start again fresh, with the knowledge that you have gained from the last campaign.
so what is THE MOST matter of triggering civil war?! Ambition? Gravitas?! or Influence?! or just its Random?!
although i like a civil war but i have only 4 stacks of full army but senate loyalists with 70 stacks of full army!!!!!! this defense its like defense of 4 million Germans against 17 million Soviet USSR in WWII even more!! victory here is not possible,,,,,and i have done too much for this campaign i dont JUST play i play total war with thinking and attention!! from the day came im in 65 turn!! i mean i dont just click on END TURN simply!!
(plus, if there is no way, i'll be shaken with continuing ROME's campaign and will start PARTHIAN CAMPAIGN!!)
Hooahguy
10-23-2013, 00:28
Nobody is really sure what causes the civil war. Sometimes its too much ambition or gravitas, influence, nobody is really sure.
So you have 70 stacks, right? Are you using the Radious mods? A side effect of that mod is that it spawn an insane amount of rebel stacks. So try disabling the mod, playing until you get the civil war, then re-enable the mod and continue on.
Empire*Of*Media
10-23-2013, 00:47
Nobody is really sure what causes the civil war. Sometimes its too much ambition or gravitas, influence, nobody is really sure.
So you have 70 stacks, right? Are you using the Radious mods? A side effect of that mod is that it spawn an insane amount of rebel stacks. So try disabling the mod, playing until you get the civil war, then re-enable the mod and continue on.
well radious is not compatible with update4 but i have some that are compatible.
but yes thanks i will try out!
Hooahguy
10-23-2013, 00:48
The new update of Radious doesnt work as its updated for patch 5. By the way, why arent you updated to patch 5?
Empire*Of*Media
10-26-2013, 16:33
http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/97333-Civil-War-Trigger-DISCOVERED
That gut in ther was right! i did anything to stop Civil War but nothing changed!
i tried to assassinate an inferiority complex REGULUS that was defeated and wounded many times in wars triggered the civil war!
i did and civil war never happened ! even when my influence was 53%!!
so u must know who is triggering civil war actually!!
From my own experience (anecdotal): for monarchies, CW is almost guaranteed to start if your influence is below 60 (in the 50s) and you reach the imperium level that allows 12 armies (the one before the last). With influence higher than 70, I could cruise through to the highest level of imperium (15 armies in vanilla), then, the CW will take place regardless of influence or anything else.
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