Gameroom Mafia Discussion

[Visor]

I've been playing mafia here for a while now and on a few other sites, and I've got a few things I would like to discuss with all of you who visit and play in the gameroom about mafia.

1. About the content in posts:

I've played with lots of different day phase times, average post counts in games and plenty of other variables, however, I find the system here (24/24 generally) to be one of the better I've played with. That said, we don't post an awful lot in these posts and especially in the smaller games. I like that we put more effort towards flavour in a game, it makes the experience more enjoyable for all in my opinion. However, I would love to see even just a few more words per post, in a game, at least starting from Day 2 onwards, D1 is a lottery as far as I'm concerned no matter where you come from, but from D2 onwards I feel just a little more content in posts even if it is simply just "I find this guy scummy because he voted Player X D1." would be great. I'm very well aware that I'm guilty of this too and I will be attempting to make a change in my game. Keep in mind that I'm not asking you to post more often, just with a bit more content (this isn't an issue in the later stages of the game of course). I think it would make the game a better experience for all.

2. A place to chat about mafia related things and like:

Sometimes I would like to talk to people about a certain setup or a role or a game or just have a chat about anything in general. I feel if we had a discussion thread it would facilitate those needs. I don't think I'm the only one (or at least I hope not) who likes to talk about mafia and shoot the shit in general.

3. All lists need a third item.
I can't think of a third thing right now.

Anyway my main point is the first one, but I would also like to see this thread (or something like it be used to discuss mafia related things such as strategies, hosting, game setups, roles, and so on.

[Makrell]

Can we have a gameroom cafe thread? it would be awesome IMO, and bring up activity, we have one in the mafia section of twc(which is smaller) and it is great.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I heartily approve this thread. Use this for your Mafia and other discussion.

TRY to keep it on the subject of mafia/gameroom related topics.

If it becomes as off-topic as the one at TWC I will close it. We do have a frontroom and backroom.

[Jolt]

I'm absolutely excited over the upcoming Resident Evil 2 game. ATPG probably knows what huge luck I had at escaping out of the first game alive.

- Surviving the first attack on the bridge by a Serial Killer and another Special Zombie.
- Accidentally moving away from the bridge, the round the Tyrant arrived and murdered pretty much everyone, and returning to the bridge the very next turn after everyone (Tyrant included) was dead.
- Running trough the city without any Zombie attacks.
- Meeting up with a friendly and uber-geared SynTech merc group posing as S.T.A.R.S that fortunately also had the Metal Detector I needed to escape.
- Not being killed by the Mini-Tyrant guys (The doctor that was with me since the bridge died there, I think).
- Surviving getting shot by a sniper one turn away from escaping
- And finally actually managing to escape through the minefield, and getting out of there alive without turning to a zombie.

I hope my massive streak of luck continues.

[GeneralHankerchief]

*sees interesting thread, stumbles out of his cave*


1. About the content in posts:

I've played with lots of different day phase times, average post counts in games and plenty of other variables, however, I find the system here (24/24 generally) to be one of the better I've played with. That said, we don't post an awful lot in these posts and especially in the smaller games. I like that we put more effort towards flavour in a game, it makes the experience more enjoyable for all in my opinion. However, I would love to see even just a few more words per post, in a game, at least starting from Day 2 onwards, D1 is a lottery as far as I'm concerned no matter where you come from, but from D2 onwards I feel just a little more content in posts even if it is simply just "I find this guy scummy because he voted Player X D1." would be great. I'm very well aware that I'm guilty of this too and I will be attempting to make a change in my game. Keep in mind that I'm not asking you to post more often, just with a bit more content (this isn't an issue in the later stages of the game of course). I think it would make the game a better experience for all.

I think this is an issue of seepage. Okay, so nobody has any data to go off of for the D1 vote, that's been a constant. But let me explain.

Back in the Before Time, before the metagame evolved to the way it did, yeah, nobody had any concrete data to use, but people actually tried. They'd probe, question, do other weird/wacky/etc things, something besides just throwing out a blatantly random vote. This allowed for the collection of some data to be used on D2, thus starting the actual process of the town using publicly-provided information (i.e. the thread) to root out the mafia.

Now? Things have changed. Basically everyone's throwing out blatantly random votes. The reasons for this are mainly a) there's no real data, so why look stupid and b) it no longer stands out in the crowd. Nobody wants to make waves on Day 1. The problem with this sort of thinking is that it's bad for the town in the long run. Why? Now we go from *some* data being produced on D1 to *no* (or, if we're feeling generous, very little) data being produced on D1. This means that once again, there's not really that much to discuss on D2, thus starting the whole "no conversation" process all over again. Theoretically, we could get to the point where the entire game is played on autopilot and the only way things are resolved are either through lucky guesses or night actions shedding light on things. It's an extremely gradual process, but I could see it happening - and it's already starting.

At a certain point, the town has to make the leap and realize that you can't analyze data without generating data, and if that means putting yourself out there, so be it. Unfortunately, the only way I can see this happening without the host artificially intervening is another natural evolution of the metagame, which will take time.

Basically, it's on us as townies to not be afraid to actually be productive on D1.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Day one should be used as the day you declare in a loud, steady voice:

I am willing to lynch johnhughthom, today, and watch his body burn to ashes, because I am not his mafia partner, and if I am, I'm perfectly comfortable pulling a History Of Violence and going it alone.

It's basically the day you do not bus your mafia partner unless you really really want to regret it when you do.

It's the day you remove yourself from the "I am possibly mafia with this guy" pairings.

But you have to really try to get them killed, or you're just making noise.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm absolutely excited over the upcoming Resident Evil 2 game. ATPG probably knows what huge luck I had at escaping out of the first game alive.

- Surviving the first attack on the bridge by a Serial Killer and another Special Zombie.
- Accidentally moving away from the bridge, the round the Tyrant arrived and murdered pretty much everyone, and returning to the bridge the very next turn after everyone (Tyrant included) was dead.
- Running trough the city without any Zombie attacks.
- Meeting up with a friendly and uber-geared SynTech merc group posing as S.T.A.R.S that fortunately also had the Metal Detector I needed to escape.
- Not being killed by the Mini-Tyrant guys (The doctor that was with me since the bridge died there, I think).
- Surviving getting shot by a sniper one turn away from escaping
- And finally actually managing to escape through the minefield, and getting out of there alive without turning to a zombie.

I hope my massive streak of luck continues.

You can tell the game was fun when 3-4 years later, a player remembers every single :daisy: thing that happened to them.

Request an invite if you haven't already, peoples.

[seireikhaan]

You can tell the game was fun when 3-4 years later, a player remembers every single :daisy: thing that happened to them.

Request an invite if you haven't already, peoples.
Yup. This game was a carnival of fun. And that's me speaking as a guy who was literally the most cowardly person in the game, who ran away from every fight and scurried across the map like the scared mouse I was until I figured a way out of the trap. I can't even imagine how much fun all the mercs and plague fellers and other actually productive townies had. C'mon peeps. This game's gonna be legendary.

As for the D1 randomness issues, the old general pretty much nailed it on the head. At the end of the day, even the best designed game falls flat on its face without the players actually putting in the bravery and prerogative to make it work. The players need to start the ball rolling in D1, even if it's just with entertaining randomness. That's actually alright. But in D2, the try-hard pants have to come on, even if all you've got is to fish for reactions. Just because there isn't data doesn't mean you can't create it. A couple ruthless bandwagons onto two or three people can often create this, but it requires the town to actually commit to them in order to generate reaction.

[Askthepizzaguy]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?145175-Oct-2013-Resident-Evil-2-Pregame-discussion&p=2053551543&viewfull=1#post2053551543
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?145175-Oct-2013-Resident-Evil-2-Pregame-discussion&p=2053551545&viewfull=1#post2053551545

Eye candy. Map is 50% completed.

Gives you a general idea of what the finished product will look like. Picture a ton more buildings, like an actual city, not an empty grid of streets.

Drool, my minions. Drool.

[Sprig]

Basically, it's on us as townies to not be afraid to actually be productive on D1.

I have commented on this in the game I am about to host, Sometimes the impression I get from some games is that, if your a townie and you die, then you suck. When in actual fact, its ok to sacrifice yourself for the greater good. We don't tell solders that they suck if they die while serving their country. Instead we honor them.

So here's to you fallen townies! We honor your contribution!

[Double A]

I heartily approve this thread. Use this for your Mafia and other discussion.

TRY to keep it on the subject of mafia/gameroom related topics.

If it becomes as off-topic as the one at TWC I will close it. We do have a frontroom and backroom.

How OT are your diamond balls?

[Darth Feather]

I have commented on this in the game I am about to host, Sometimes the impression I get from some games is that, if your a townie and you die, then you suck. When in actual fact, its ok to sacrifice yourself for the greater good. We don't tell solders that they suck if they die while serving their country. Instead we honor them.

So here's to you fallen townies! We honor your contribution!

I agree, but sometimes it is difficult to remain concerned when you die N2. (So Scumbags stop killing me N2 :bow: )

Just kidding, someone has to go N2

[Jarema]

I agree, but sometimes it is difficult to remain concerned when you die N2. (So Scumbags stop killing me N2 :bow: )
[/SIZE]

yeah, scumbags!
please be nice, do what he wants and kill him night one!
:bow:

[Darth Feather]

yeah, scumbags!
please be nice, do what he wants and kill him night one!
:bow:

That wasn't exactly what I meant .... :bomb2:

But to stay on-topic: A board to discuss games and stuff is certainly usefull. It can only do good to the Gameroom.

[Zack]

*sees interesting thread, stumbles out of his cave*



I think this is an issue of seepage. Okay, so nobody has any data to go off of for the D1 vote, that's been a constant. But let me explain.

Back in the Before Time, before the metagame evolved to the way it did, yeah, nobody had any concrete data to use, but people actually tried. They'd probe, question, do other weird/wacky/etc things, something besides just throwing out a blatantly random vote. This allowed for the collection of some data to be used on D2, thus starting the actual process of the town using publicly-provided information (i.e. the thread) to root out the mafia.

Now? Things have changed. Basically everyone's throwing out blatantly random votes. The reasons for this are mainly a) there's no real data, so why look stupid and b) it no longer stands out in the crowd. Nobody wants to make waves on Day 1. The problem with this sort of thinking is that it's bad for the town in the long run. Why? Now we go from *some* data being produced on D1 to *no* (or, if we're feeling generous, very little) data being produced on D1. This means that once again, there's not really that much to discuss on D2, thus starting the whole "no conversation" process all over again. Theoretically, we could get to the point where the entire game is played on autopilot and the only way things are resolved are either through lucky guesses or night actions shedding light on things. It's an extremely gradual process, but I could see it happening - and it's already starting.

At a certain point, the town has to make the leap and realize that you can't analyze data without generating data, and if that means putting yourself out there, so be it. Unfortunately, the only way I can see this happening without the host artificially intervening is another natural evolution of the metagame, which will take time.

Basically, it's on us as townies to not be afraid to actually be productive on D1.
I also think a big part of the problem is that people have become so reliant on night actions and vague buzzwords (e.g. he's "scummy").

[El Barto]

Maybe we could have some enforced roleplaying (like the time when I made Winston play a cat).

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

I keep meaning to post something here, and now I actually have the time.

Realistically I have little to add to an amalgamation of what GH, 'khaan and Zack have said. Random votes generate little information and lead to less analysis, as well as lowering the chances of town success.

While one way of improving the situation is to rely on a concerted effort to change our mindsets and approaches - less overt randomness and more focus from Day 1, etc. - I wonder whether there might be other ways. In an ideal world, more activity would lead to more information, but clearly people have lives outside off Mafia, and cannot be expected to post more than they already do. Really, with this trend, the balance is starting to shift in favour of the mafia, and, although this may be just me, it seems that mafia successes are becoming more common.

I also (vaguely) remember previous eras, and one thing which I think could conceivably improve gameplay is a return to the mafiosi having to write their own kill descriptions. Yes, it is a labour-intensive process, but it does add to the flavour (as well as eclecticism) and increases the amount of information available to the town.

Role-playing, as El Barto suggests, might also be an option for themed games...

[Montmorency]

In role-heavy games at least, things should definitely get rolling by D2.

***post reminiscing about Buffy 2***

EDIT: In fact, role-heavy games should have 48-hour D2s.

[johnhughthom]

A game was just won by a 3 man mafia team with a combined post total of 20. If we allow such lurkiness to be rewarded, and fail to comment on it after games, it's no surprise that activity falls overall.

Not having a dig at the mafia team here really, more the town that let it happen (in the case of BSmith AGAIN X150!!!:stare: :laugh4:).

[Askthepizzaguy]

What did I used to always say? No lurker victories?

We enforced it so well that we ended up losing games just to make a point of making sure victory was denied to the lurkers. So the gangsters finally stopped.

We've been lax, and now, they can skate by the final round without even voting and win flawlessly.

I won't even beat them up for it. That's all on the town. In fact, pulling that off is actually ballsy, especially given the blatantly scummy last second save the round prior.

And what did I always say about last second voting?

BAH!!! It's like my teachings have been forgotten like so much lore about the Ring of Power.

[Zack]

Let us all get out our copies of The Mafia Bible, and turn to the Book of Askthepizzaguy, Chapter 12, Verse 5:


Behold, the man who doth not policy-lynch lurkers doth possess the intelligence of a stinky butthole.

And lest we forget, from the same book, Chapter 1, Verse 17:


And on the seventh day, the scumbag didst place a last-second vote to save his ugly partner.

[Jarema]

I like idea of introducing voting on something else than lynch (in addition to regular lynch)
Of course, it is not applicable to many mafia games, but to some of them it is. If we allow players to vote for something besides lynch (e.g. item, or - like in my game - jailing someone, or appointing a mayor), that will generate lot more data for analyzing day two

[El Barto]

Thou shalt not metagame in vain.

[White_eyes:D]

All this talk of lurking mafia victories has me thinking about two of the worst losses I ever suffered from over-active scum bags.~:handball:

One was Midgard 3, first half of that felt like a drunken frat party where you may have done things best left unremembered...then when I turned serious in the second half and was trying to kill/lynch TinCow, I found Reenk was blocking my every move. Then to rub salt in my wounds, TinCow made an obvious kill write-up pointing right at him and just brushed it off as a frame job. It was hilarious when Reenk died and found out he was protecting his arch-nemesis the whole game but that still stands as one of the more bitter tasting defeats I had.:shame:

The other is Shadow fort...What happeneds when your Mason buddy is forced-recruited into scum and you have tons of third party roles wanted to kill but not lynch the scumbag? Hilarity and bitter tasting defeat...they lynched me to be sure and kept Pizzaguy alive to kill him in combat. When he kept surviving and the body count piled up is the point where I think I saw the humor in it all...:laugh4:

I sometimes like to look back and see what I did wrong then...I kept coming to the conclusion that I just talked too much. I could be wrong though...:shrug:

[Askthepizzaguy]

The other is Shadow fort...What happeneds when your Mason buddy is forced-recruited into scum and you have tons of third party roles wanted to kill but not lynch the scumbag? Hilarity and bitter tasting defeat...they lynched me to be sure and kept Pizzaguy alive to kill him in combat. When he kept surviving and the body count piled up is the point where I think I saw the humor in it all...:laugh4:

Oh, I was laughing pretty hard when I outed myself and they lynched you instead, as I was offering fake and worthless recruitment invitations to the townies for the luls, not even a serious attempt at confusion.

I deserved to get killed right at the end, given how much combat I saw. But the body count made everything better.

Was also funny how I picked out the last scum guy and worked really hard to make sure he didn't get killed so town would lose no matter what happened.

[Visor]

I'm been tossing around the idea of a 9 player game with a cult. I know I'd need an inquisitor and an alarmist. Any other ideas?

It'd have a bunch of vanilla townies, and a cult leader (maybe godfather) who has a 1 shot recruitment, and there is an alarmist and an inquisitor, cannot no lynch. Does that sound reasonable?

EDIT: One of the funnier things I've seen in a game was when Johnhughthom 'outed' our entire mafia team, and we went on to thrash the town and were going to win if the host hadn't abandoned the game.

[johnhughthom]

I like idea of introducing voting on something else than lynch (in addition to regular lynch)
Of course, it is not applicable to many mafia games, but to some of them it is. If we allow players to vote for something besides lynch (e.g. item, or - like in my game - jailing someone, or appointing a mayor), that will generate lot more data for analyzing day two

I generally hate item voting, jailing and voting for positions and would often be put off a game that has them.

[Visor]

I generally hate item voting, jailing and voting for positions and would often be put off a game that has them.

The general problem with item voting is that it can become a popularity contest, or they can just be given to a heavily experienced player which they tend to be, over anyone else.

[Jarema]

I'm been tossing around the idea of a 9 player game with a cult. I know I'd need an inquisitor and an alarmist. Any other ideas?
I am just toying with my 'smallest cult' setup for 8 players. So I will not help you :rolleyes:

But I wish you good setup :bow:

[Visor]

I am just toying with my 'smallest cult' setup for 8 players. So I will not help you :rolleyes:

But I wish you good setup :bow:

8 Players? An even number? Would you have any kills? (Give me something to run with :p)

[Jarema]

I will have no kills, and recruitment every second night. So, at the start of day 2, there is probably 5 townies 2 cultists. At the start of day 3, probably 4 townies 2 cultist, and it is almost LyLo. Why almost? because there is at least one power role - player who can protect chosen person from being recruited. That player cant protect the same person twice, and if cult tries to recruit him, he dies. That is only case that someone dies during night.
Thats probably the whole setup; maybe I would add limited tracker/watcher to it. Please dont do exactly this game

[Visor]

I will have no kills, and recruitment every second night. So, at the start of day 2, there is probably 5 townies 2 cultists. At the start of day 3, probably 4 townies 2 cultist, and it is almost LyLo. Why almost? because there is at least one power role - player who can protect chosen person from being recruited. That player cant protect the same person twice, and if cult tries to recruit him, he dies. That is only case that someone dies during night.
Thats probably the whole setup; maybe I would add limited tracker/watcher to it. Please dont do exactly this game

Of course I'm not going to take your setup. Half the fun of hosting games is watching your roles fumble around in the darkness and watching the chaos your setup creates.

I was thinking, 1 shot cult recruiter, 7 vanilla townies and inquisitor. Cult has 1 time night godfather immunity to be used on any night necessary. Possibly give the leader a 1 shot kill if immunity isn't used and can only be used by either the recruit/cult leader (will determine this when I host it).

[Jarema]

you can also peek here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cult_C9

[Visor]

you can also peek here: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cult_C9

I did see that, but I disliked two lynches per day.

[Jarema]

yeah, me too. That is why I've chosen another method of changing relative speed of lynch/recruitment - recruitment only at odd days