Golden Dawn Showered by Raids

[Papewaio]

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-30/greece27s-golden-dawn-leader-charged-with-belonging-to-crimina/4987964


The leader of the far-right Golden Dawn Party in Greece has been arrested and charged with belonging to a criminal organisation.

The arrest of Nikolaos Michaloliakos is the most prominent in a series of arrests of the party's MPs since last week.

Greece's anti-terrorist unit said it found weapons, ammunition and thousands of euros in cash at the party leader's home.

Twenty other Golden Dawn members were arrested over the weekend, including five of its members of parliament.


The Supreme Court has rained on the Golden Dawns torch lit parades after investigating them and have found sufficient evidence of acting as an organized crime syndicate to arrest five MPs along with the leader.

Lets hope Golden Dawns charges aren't watered down. :smoking:

[Fragony]

Hardcore nazi's, I don't think this will stand though. Everybody knows they are scum but it's going to be pretty hard to prove they are a criminal organisation, they are, but they are also a democratically elected party.

[AntiDamascus]

Asian Dawn? No wait, I read about those guys in Time Magazine.

[HopAlongBunny]

Golden showers and Nazi's!?
This can only end badly ~:eek:

[Rhyfelwyr]

So, a forceful political crackdown on the ugly face of popular disillusionment, but absolutely no measures to tackle the huge variety of social injustices that both fostered it and were voiced through it in the first place.

Good job.

Imagine, you lose your livelihood, your home, heck your whole life... and now have your political representation taken away from you...

What is the typical working-class, downtrodden, political ignorant Golden Dawn supporter going to think of democracy now?

[Fragony]

So, a forceful political crackdown on the ugly face of popular disillusionment, but absolutely no measures to tackle the huge variety of social injustices that both fostered it and were voiced through it in the first place.

Good job.

Imagine, you lose your livelihood, your home, heck your whole life... and now have your political representation taken away from you...

What is the typical working-class, downtrodden, political ignorant Golden Dawn supporter going to think of democracy now?

It's hard to as politically ignorant to not know who these guys are, can't be compared to the BNP or the likes. They attack immigrants, destroy their marketplaces, patrol the streets. They are pretty damn hardcore. But it certainly is a dillema. Finding weapons somewhere doesn't mean it's a criminal organisation, and the behaviour of their supporters doesn' either. Really tough one I would love to have these guys behind bars as I detest their kind but the one doing that would probably have to cheat.

[Husar]

It's hard to imagine nazi supporters as having a high opinion of democracy in the first place.

There are other parties that support downtrodden workers, you don't have to beat up immigrants to support the working class.

[Fragony]

It's hard to imagine nazi supporters as having a high opinion of democracy in the first place.

There are other parties that support downtrodden workers, you don't have to beat up immigrants to support the working class.

They are absolute scumbags, but I don't know where the canary in the coalmine is when it comes to democracy, if you would have to draw a line would you be confident of where to put it

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I will admit that a quick scan of the thread title had me thinking it was the title of some kind of "adult" film effort. Fortunately, I was mistaken.


Ryf':

You are, so far, the closest thing to an apologist for these blokes in the thread (though I think you're arguing that the issues that fostered such a fascist party are still un-addressed, not arguing for fascism).

So, what are those social injustices? I had heard that Greece was facing tough times as they clawed their way from under the debt rock, but you are suggesting something more, no?

[drone]

Why would you start a Golden Dawn revival in an Orthodox country? :inquisitive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEnBs_hdK_c

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ryf':

You are, so far, the closest thing to an apologist for these blokes in the thread (though I think you're arguing that the issues that fostered such a fascist party are still un-addressed, not arguing for fascism).

So, what are those social injustices? I had heard that Greece was facing tough times as they clawed their way from under the debt rock, but you are suggesting something more, no?

I never defend far-right views, I do however defend the average far-right supporter. I think sometimes in the past people have missed this distinction when I have made certain posts, though I always try to make it clear.

The social injustices many Greeks face are the same as those faced by many throughout the developed world. However, the situation in Greece is of course particularly bad, and it does have a few unique features. For example, the animosity with the conditions being imposed upon it by the EU - something the nationalism and isolationism of the likes of Golden Dawn obviously taps into. Equally, there is the reality that much of the financial situation in Greece can be attributed to the tax-dodging of the middle and upper classes - the same classes who support the mainstream parties that are now banning Golden Dawn in a flurry of righteous indignation; while the average working-class Golden Dawn supporter was never responsible for the crisis, yet suffers the most from its effects. And these same people that cannot get jobs must watch as immigrants fill up what work remains, and are allowed to do so by the lobbying of corporations who want their cheap labour, and form a rather bizarre alliance with left-wing groups in shooting down any questioning of immigration with a burst of (often faux) moral outrage.

And that is merely the particulars that are unique to Greece - the Greek working class/lower class/underclass/whatever suffer from the same ills they do in the rest of Europe - which is a crap life with no prospects, and complete alienation from economic, political, and (something often underappreciated by many) social life.

As I said, I believe fascism is not the right answer to these problems, but unfortunately for a poorly educated, politically isolated and desperate bunch of people, it seems to be the best answer they can come up with. Isolationism is not the answer to the EU/sovereignty issue. Racism is not the answer to immigration issues. Ultra-nationalism is not the answer to a national unity fractured by inequality. But the sad reality is that these do all provide an outlet for their frustrations, hence why fascism is so often a reaction to poverty in the developed world.

That is my position on the matter.

[gaelic cowboy]

I will admit that a quick scan of the thread title had me thinking it was the title of some kind of "adult" film effort. Fortunately, I was mistaken.


Ryf':

You are, so far, the closest thing to an apologist for these blokes in the thread (though I think you're arguing that the issues that fostered such a fascist party are still un-addressed, not arguing for fascism).

So, what are those social injustices? I had heard that Greece was facing tough times as they clawed their way from under the debt rock, but you are suggesting something more, no?


Apparently costly drugs are very scarce in Greece, I bet potential death makes for strange political bedfellows.

[Papewaio]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If the Golden Dawn party is doing criminal activities then they must be prosecuted or the government ends up legitimizing the activities of GD.

The other side of the equation is addressing the root causes of the situation. Greece has to take an honest look at all levels of society and make sure that they all are paying their fair share. Greece is fairly infamous rightly or wrongly in operating a large amount of black markets and paying very little tax yet expecting government to pick up the tab at much higher levels then comparable tax bases. It is unsustainable, but the austerity solutions have already been show to be based on a faulty interpretation of data so that isn't the way out either.

So make surre basic welfare is achieved ie warmth, shelter food that is good enough to sustain life. Then start reforming both the processes and the people around long term sustainable life styles. If they want more social securities then they need to improve efficiencies and their tax base.

[Andres]

Nazis don't come out of thin air. Organized Nazis with widespread support of any kind speaks to deep, deep issues in Greece. By the time Nazis enter a political arena, a large portion of the population has to be unhappy and ready to get evil to "fix" things.

Many of them will see their party as even more legitimate now that they are being "bullied" by the establishment. Bad situation and bad political handling. Glad I'm not greek.

Indeed.

It's easy to wave your finger at the evil nazis, it's far more complicated to run your country in a way that the general population isn't kicked into misery and becomes receptive for the ideas of scum like Golden Dawn.

Rhyfelwyr is right. It's easy to judge people while sitting well fed and well educated in your comfortable chair sipping coffee.

[Andres]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If the Golden Dawn party is doing criminal activities then they must be prosecuted or the government ends up legitimizing the activities of GD.

The other side of the equation is addressing the root causes of the situation. Greece has to take an honest look at all levels of society and make sure that they all are paying their fair share. Greece is fairly infamous rightly or wrongly in operating a large amount of black markets and paying very little tax yet expecting government to pick up the tab at much higher levels then comparable tax bases. It is unsustainable, but the austerity solutions have already been show to be based on a faulty interpretation of data so that isn't the way out either.

So make surre basic welfare is achieved ie warmth, shelter food that is good enough to sustain life. Then start reforming both the processes and the people around long term sustainable life styles. If they want more social securities then they need to improve efficiencies and their tax base.


They could start with ending tax benefits for their rich ship owners and perhaps prevent them from transferring their very favourable taxed wealth abroad.

And maybe they should also show their middlefinger to the troika which is now forcing them to sell their state owned assets at dumping prices to sharks.

Last thing I heard, is that universities are now forced to close their doors this year.

And then people act surprised when the monster of extreme right rises again in Europe.

Wait and see. 68 years of peace in Europe is no guarantee for another few decades of peace. Those from reality detached troika idiots are playing with fire.

:applause:

[ICantSpellDawg]

Golden Dawn are actual violent fascists. Hammer them into the ground. Even 7% is way too many to have in government.

[Fragony]

Nazis don't come out of thin air. Organized Nazis with widespread support of any kind speaks to deep, deep issues in Greece. By the time Nazis enter a political arena, a large portion of the population has to be unhappy and ready to get evil to "fix" things.

Many of them will see their party as even more legitimate now that they are being "bullied" by the establishment. Bad situation and bad political handling. Glad I'm not greek.

I have little interest in excusing them in anything really. They aren't even pretending to be something they are not.

[Empire*Of*Media]

why u always match the white neo-Nazi racists and super racists of eastern europe to normal Nazis?!
Nazis in Greece and Thailand only want independence and cut dependence from Imperialists !

[Papewaio]

why u always match the white neo-Nazi racists and super racists of eastern europe to normal Nazis?!
Nazis in Greece and Thailand only want independence and cut dependence from Imperialists !

I will go out on a limb here why people see them as wannabe Nazis. It might be their white greek meanser styled like a nazi like swatizka, anti-Semitic output, black uniforms and beating up and murdering of ethnically different people than themselves at a guess.

Of it could be their MPs wearing iron cross jewelry, having tattoos of Sieg Heil or their official magazine having articles stating "We are the faithful soldiers of the National Socialist idea and nothing else" and "[...] WE EXIST, and continue the battle, the battle for the final victory of our race".

IMDHO It kind of hints that they are wannabe Nazis.

[Fragony]

They aren't wannabees they are nazi's.

[Empire*Of*Media]

I will go out on a limb here why people see them as wannabe Nazis. It might be their white greek meanser styled like a nazi like swatizka, anti-Semitic output, black uniforms and beating up and murdering of ethnically different people than themselves at a guess.

Of it could be their MPs wearing iron cross jewelry, having tattoos of Sieg Heil or their official magazine having articles stating "We are the faithful soldiers of the National Socialist idea and nothing else" and "[...] WE EXIST, and continue the battle, the battle for the final victory of our race".

IMDHO It kind of hints that they are wannabe Nazis.

first consider why in GREECE Without any Nationalism & Nazism Basis, is growing and why not in German that has been controlled strictly by USA & EU?! why in a country without any Aryan & German Race?! dont u think they want to be Free and be in better situation and break their dependence and be independence?!
anyway....
i didnt say they dont want to be Nazi or dont have all of the Nazi Specifications, i meant they are not matched with The White Neo-Nazis (those terrorists that believe White race as greater Race!!) ! anyway u see Nazism as Devil i dont want to talk about that (Has much great long discussion!) but your prejudice of Anti Nationalism that u r told to think like that, just shows how much your narrow minded and one minded!! the SWATSKA that u fear & hate when u see it (again are told u to be like this by controlled media) has not came from HITLER!! itler wanted only to resurrect that symbol!

The Symbol called Swastika has Aryan Iranian & Aryan Hindian Roots and and continued & went across until the Danube River Where the GOTHS were stationed before their Kingdoms in Italy & Spain and thats why Many Aryan-German Raced people are in France - Germany - Austria - Finland - Sweden! and that was why why that symbol got roots in Germania (germany & Austria - to Sweden & Finland)
your Hatred and Fear is only what THEY told u to think like what they please !
plz be more Logical & dispassionate & unprejudiced! (not u i mean All the people in Modern Countries with Huge Media Control over them!)

[Papewaio]

Mate I had relatives who fought and died in WWII. I also have relatives who are Buddhists so I've seen plenty of swatiskas. That's why I called them the nazi swatiska and the nazi iron cross not to be confused with other belief systems such as Buddhism or Christian crosses.

I don't fear Nazis, I loathe and pity them. I am disgusted with people who think it is alright to bully others based on their ethnic group or place of birth. I also know WWII well enough to distinguish between Nazi Germany, Vichy France and Fascist Italy. I am in no doubt of what evils were perpetuated by them.


I don't follow you when you call Greeks non-white. Sure they have tanned skin, but they are the crucible from which a lot of western civilisation sprang. They are very much Europeans. Which until relatively recently one would consider equivalent with white.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Mate I had relatives who fought and died in WWII. I also have relatives who are Buddhists so I've seen plenty of swatiskas. That's why I called them the nazi swatiska and the nazi iron cross not to be confused with other belief systems such as Buddhism or Christian crosses.

I don't fear Nazis, I loathe and pity them. I am disgusted with people who think it is alright to bully others based on their ethnic group or place of birth. I also know WWII well enough to distinguish between Nazi Germany, Vichy France and Fascist Italy. I am in no doubt of what evils were perpetuated by them.


I don't follow you when you call Greeks non-white. Sure they have tanned skin, but they are the crucible from which a lot of western civilisation sprang. They are very much Europeans. Which until relatively recently one would consider equivalent with white.

well friend! i told u Axis were not 100 % Devil!
its just World Zionism & Usa Propaganda! but i will not deny their horrible works! u know its war! men dont kiss each other in war!
but i hope ur negative sense toward Nazis be like toward Imperialists that colonized the world for 300 years and still on, inviting people to kill each other and send them guns! dividing & spliting ethnics & peoples to rise tension so money be transfered to their account well and the region be like what they like! creating Dictators so they get much benefits from every aspects and are relax about that regions too! and..many things i just titled it not example!
u know u hate 1 side because THEY show and create so called truths, but u even dont think that hey, maybe your wrong too!!
i hope u know what im meaning!

(And that symbol is not only for buddhists but Ancient Iran & Mesopotamia (Kurdistan)- it was from Zoroastrianism (the 4 origin elements of World - Water-Fire-Soil,this is not in buddhism-Wind) that went to Buddhism that symbol came much older than buddhism)

sorry for bad english

Chao!:bow:

[Fragony]

Mate I had relatives who fought and died in WWII. I also have relatives who are Buddhists so I've seen plenty of swatiskas

That's odd, swastikas aren't a budhist symbol but a hindu one

[PanzerJaeger]

It's easy to judge anti-immigrant sentiments when you haven't lived with them. These people are watching their neighborhoods, and many times their ancestral homes going back generations, be essentially turned into crime ridden housing blocks for a population that could care less about Greece or its culture and customs, and is instead only interested in chasing benefits through Europe.

There is a certain idealized notion of the immigrant that is strongly reinforced in contemporary Western thought, but spend a bit of time in these areas and it becomes clear that these people, especially those flocking to Europe, bring the same disfunction, petty rivalries, and violence that has kept their respective homelands in the third world. I don't blame the average working class Grecian for observing the crumbling world around him and concluding that his reality is not being understood or addressed by the current major parties.

As for Golden Dawn's alleged violence, one must also consider the violence perpetrated against them by immigrants and their Marxist allies - it certainly goes both ways. These people are fighting a vicious street war for their families and their homes and now face a crackdown by a government that no longer represents them. It would not surprise me if they become more violent, and I would not blame them.

[Brenus]

The “alleged” violence by member of the Greek Racist Party is to have killed a lefty. Resurrecting the Sturm Brigades, they are using the same methods. So they’ve got the same result. The F.N. henchman in France killed as well, an anti-fascist lefty. The problem with the lefties is they come without weapon, so they are just meat for these criminals.

The problem of emigration is a problem that has to be resolve within the parliament and laws.

“i told u Axis were not 100 % Devil!”! Err, what was the good part? They ONLY killed homosexuals, handicaps, Communists, Socialists, Roms, Jews and Slavs? Enslaved entire population, starved to death what left, burning just for the fun villages with people in it. And of course, the most beautiful Photos Concurs (winner was the picture of a SS killing the mother AND her Child with one bullet: The price was attributed on the moment before death, the expression of the victim(s)). Oh, wait, they built motorways…

And yes, my discuss goes as well to the Colonisations and the Bloody Columns, and the slaughters and the slavery… But, I don’t believe you when you are saying “i will not deny their horrible works”, because you are saying “its just World Zionism & Usa Propaganda”. It is not propaganda, my friend, this is unfortunately the horrible truth.

[Pannonian]

“i told u Axis were not 100 % Devil!”! Err, what was the good part? They ONLY killed homosexuals, handicaps, Communists, Socialists, Roms, Jews and Slavs? Enslaved entire population, starved to death what left, burning just for the fun villages with people in it. And of course, the most beautiful Photos Concurs (winner was the picture of a SS killing the mother AND her Child with one bullet: The price was attributed on the moment before death, the expression of the victim(s)). Oh, wait, they built motorways…

And yes, my discuss goes as well to the Colonisations and the Bloody Columns, and the slaughters and the slavery… But, I don’t believe you when you are saying “i will not deny their horrible works”, because you are saying “its just World Zionism & Usa Propaganda”. It is not propaganda, my friend, this is unfortunately the horrible truth.

This Japanese guy on TWC was protesting against alleged discrimination against Japanese people such as the demonisation of imperial Japan, and pointed to the British as fellow bad guys who oppressed the Irish, Indians, Asians, etc. The discussion ended up with a load of Irish, Indian, Asian, etc. guys talking about how their relatives joined up to fight against the Axis, and how said relatives loathed the Japanese but liked the British.

[Papewaio]

That's odd, swastikas aren't a budhist symbol but a hindu one

The symbol predates most religion and is widely used. If you want to eat at a vegetarian restaurant in a Buddhist country look for the swastikas.

Landing for the first time in Taiwan, tired, jet lagged and staring through early morning mists seeing row upon row of swatiska covering temples and restaurants. My mind went WTF? As my exposure was WWII history and people saying it was recovering an old symbol no longer in use. Well that symbol never went out of use in the east and is very common.

FYI if you like soy products made to look and taste like meat ones follow the swatiskas.

[Empire*Of*Media]

“i told u Axis were not 100 % Devil!”! Err, what was the good part? They ONLY killed homosexuals, handicaps, Communists, Socialists, Roms, Jews and Slavs? Enslaved entire population, starved to death what left, burning just for the fun villages with people in it. And of course, the most beautiful Photos Concurs (winner was the picture of a SS killing the mother AND her Child with one bullet: The price was attributed on the moment before death, the expression of the victim(s)). Oh, wait, they built motorways…

And yes, my discuss goes as well to the Colonisations and the Bloody Columns, and the slaughters and the slavery… But, I don’t believe you when you are saying “i will not deny their horrible works”, because you are saying “its just World Zionism & Usa Propaganda”. It is not propaganda, my friend, this is unfortunately the horrible truth.

Hello Friend! Good Day/or Night to u!
if u look i said 100% we have even 99% too!LoL! i didnt say they were saint!!! well as My Nation suffered genocide thousand times more than Jews, i hate even the word! so i have a common sense toward them too because hey, im human apart my nationality &race!

but i dont want to believe as the 1% wants us to believe!
i told before, i dont want to deny holocaust i dont want to hate jews or anything u want that to incriminate to me!
i have many relatives in Israel!
but i only want to holocaust be freely reconsidered! i know if a Zionism or Zionism Controlled see that word RECONSIDERED will ban me or attack me, but many things that u call it HORRIBLE TRUTH, i say ok it maybe be truth but have u seen it?! have u researched it without any media influenced or ignorancy or anything one & narrow minded?! NO!
we shouldnt stick to the details, but u say burning the villages! but i say it was not what u r told to see then believe! because the villages that they set to fire supported many many rebels and the rebels were there but before the army's arrival they fled! first if they were freedom fighter they should have remained and defend or just shouldnt went there! and u know, its war! they wanted to somehow defend themselves, well, they couldnt remain silent against their enemy! and in this events, horrible things will occur unfortunately! im not making someone good or evil im just saying as before i said, its war not Heaven! war from every aspect u look at it its wrong and worse! even if lead by the messiah!
u just see & believe what THEY make u to believe! u only see documentaries & Videos of the VICTOR not the beaten!

i dont go to the details much, because its useless we only should discuss about titles because thats the real problem! or we should discuss 3000 pages!

just add this that U think these things happened because u r told to believe this by mass producing Documentaries & Movies and creating so called truths!! in these period time of the world people only see Electronic Media, so u know, controlling and enjecting their goal to us is very easy!
if REALLY holocaust has happened, so why should those that only want the happening be reconsidered (NOT DENIAL COMPLETELY) will be Imprisoned, Banned, beaten, Penalize &.... them like Robert Faurisson, or even concentration camps survivor Paul Rassinier?!!
(the trial of Nurenburg was fun!! they trialed a general for crimes against humanity, and their proof was 2 witness that ONLY claimed that they made soap from the jewish bodies!!!!!-while what r told, but we suppose, how some people believe jews are impure dirty and low-level, will create jewish soap for cleaning?!!!!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

why not speak & discuss about this like what they claim in a FREE & DEMOCRATIC world?! so dont u think they are afraid of their Great deception?! because discussing will bring doubts and researching more!!....so their deception will be uncovered & revealed!!
why the world doesnt focus on Armenian Genocid or Kurdish Genocide or Bulgarian genocide or German Genocide & .... why the so called genocide must be focused on a peoples that have much 80% of world economy & Money?!
.
.
.
.
i dont like someone only seek benefits!! why u only Bolded a little of my text while u even didnt mention the truths about Imperialism?! (that time were called Allies!)
why u didnt say anything about titles like:
but i hope ur negative sense toward Nazis be like toward Imperialists that colonized the world for 300 years and still on, inviting people to kill each other and Sell/send them guns! dividing & spliting ethnics & peoples to rise tension and create & engineering so called Revolutions so money be transfered to their account well and the region be like what they like and their power be greater! creating Dictators so they get much benefits from every aspects and are relax about that regions too! and..many things i just titled it not example!

not mentioning these archly by yours, isnt the meaning u only want to impose your believes or what u r told to believe?!
as i told, these things were/are only titles!! god knows how much other unknown/hidden disasters and misadventures they inflicted upon poor nations & peoples! they are only hidden thats the matter! the crimes of Nazis are shown/known even exaggerated but Imperialists (when i say this i mean they all are one in one hand!) crimes will be covered & hidden from media & world!! and u know, they got this lesson when they were flagrantly withdraw from INDIA & VIETNAM & Laos & Kambodia & ....
thats why they didnt continued this kind of Colonizing & New World Ordering!!

the mind & thought controlled people criticize Nazism and their crimes, but remain silent and apathetic about Hiroshima & Nagazaki !! or even the force migration of 13 million Germans after WWII and more crimes against Germans because they were only called GERMANS!!! (Does anybody know about this?!?! NO!!)
the mind & thought controlled people criticize Hitler and his cruelty, but dont even know and dont want to know about the engineering civil wars & Coups & revolutions & Dictators that brought Middle East - East - Africa - South and Latin America by WINSTON CHURCHILL & Roosevelt Families & Eisenhower Families and such, that brought disasters and misadventures and crisis to those regions!!

not going much, i think its enough for someone understandable - reasonable - unprejudiced and independent thoughts Human!

just 1 last thing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The History (and so called Truth!!) is WRITTEN BY THE VICTOR !!

[Papewaio]

It's easy to judge anti-immigrant sentiments when you haven't lived with them. These people are watching their neighborhoods, and many times their ancestral homes going back generations, be essentially turned into crime ridden housing blocks for a population that could care less about Greece or its culture and customs, and is instead only interested in chasing benefits through Europe.

There is a certain idealized notion of the immigrant that is strongly reinforced in contemporary Western thought, but spend a bit of time in these areas and it becomes clear that these people, especially those flocking to Europe, bring the same disfunction, petty rivalries, and violence that has kept their respective homelands in the third world. I don't blame the average working class Grecian for observing the crumbling world around him and concluding that his reality is not being understood or addressed by the current major parties.

As for Golden Dawn's alleged violence, one must also consider the violence perpetrated against them by immigrants and their Marxist allies - it certainly goes both ways. These people are fighting a vicious street war for their families and their homes and now face a crackdown by a government that no longer represents them. It would not surprise me if they become more violent, and I would not blame them.

Except my personel experience is as an immigrant and living in Syndey where 40% of the population is born overseas. A city constantly in the top ten most liveable cities in the world.

I have lived in Parramatta since 2000. I'm a Westie.

Parramatta has over 50% born overseas.

[Husar]

These people are watching their neighborhoods, and many times their ancestral homes going back generations, be essentially turned into crime ridden housing blocks for a population that could care less about Greece or its culture and customs

Well, in that case it could be worse.

As for the rest, I still consider apologizing for some nazi worshippers worse than saying that not all immigrants are criminals.
Golden Dawn is not some harmless neighborhood watch, it's a dangerous organization.

And joining some murderous nazis instead of forming a party that actually representes an opposition to violent immigrants or badly executed immigration is quite lazy and shows an utter lack of judgement or education. The latter is a real problem as Rhyfelwyr pointed out. One more reason to think the government should provide a proper education for everyone.

[Montmorency]

I think more specifically Panzer's point is that Muslims, like blacks, just suck and should stay away from our pristine Heimat. :mellow:

[Papewaio]

Colonial aka Imperialism normally had the stated aim of making profit. Whatever was the cheapest method of getting goods was normally done. Mass murder was normally avoided as it depleted the labour pool, pushed up prices and increased instabilty which meant paying for more soldiers.

It got so expensive that before New Zealand joined the British Empire the British were trying to figure out how to scale back the number of colonies. Independence was a long way off but it was a solution the Brits were happy with.

Nazi Germany mass murdered its own citizens and those of countries it captured. Not because they offered resistance or because it was profitable. They killed them because of idealogical reasons. The mass murdered had the wrong religion, wrong sexuality, the wrong politics or the wrong handicap.

It wasn't for profit, it wasn't even neccesarily for security and it was done on an industrial scale (something IMDHO which is a Teutonic trait not something from facism otherwise the Italians would have shown better organizational skills).

[Montmorency]

If all that's the case, then it's strange of him to say:


It's easy to judge anti-immigrant sentiments when you haven't lived with them. These people are watching their neighborhoods, and many times their ancestral homes going back generations, be essentially turned into crime ridden housing blocks for a population that could care less about Greece or its culture and customs, and is instead only interested in chasing benefits through Europe.

There is a certain idealized notion of the immigrant that is strongly reinforced in contemporary Western thought, but spend a bit of time in these areas and it becomes clear that these people, especially those flocking to Europe, bring the same disfunction, petty rivalries, and violence that has kept their respective homelands in the third world. I don't blame the average working class Grecian for observing the crumbling world around him and concluding that his reality is not being understood or addressed by the current major parties.

As for Golden Dawn's alleged violence, one must also consider the violence perpetrated against them by immigrants and their Marxist allies - it certainly goes both ways. These people are fighting a vicious street war for their families and their homes and now face a crackdown by a government that no longer represents them. It would not surprise me if they become more violent, and I would not blame them.

That doesn't sound very much like 'I want to stabilize the size of my national group and focus our attention and resources on internal affairs and development'.

Or at least, it sounds like there's something a bit more - subtle - going on...

[Montmorency]

Not really so much racist as "xenophobic" or "ethnocentric".

I get a 'those poor stalwart peasants are witnessing the violation of their patrimony by savage hordes of (swarthy) foreigners' sort of vibe.

[Fragony]

While I am not going to agree with Panzer I do understand him. The golden dawn is a stretch too far for me though. Blame the ones who are responsible, not those that are here because of their policies, it just isn't fair. More fair, put the burden on those who support it, where people vote for immigration, usually people from 99% white neighbourhoods who put their kids on a 99% white schools (obligatory negroe), and see how they like it when it becomes their own reality, instead of what they feel others should do. All this nonsense will be over very soon.

[Husar]

I never said he wasn't using talking points that are Racist, I just don't think he believes them. Or rather, he earnestly doesnt think it is racist.


Not really so much racist as "xenophobic" or "ethnocentric".

I get a 'those poor stalwart peasants are witnessing the violation of their patrimony by savage hordes of (swarthy) foreigners' sort of vibe.

As much as I liked to believe that PJ isn't racist, I find that hard to believe as well given that he is part of a relatively wealthy family himself and owns several expensive guns. It sounds about as believable as saying that the industrials in the NSDAP really sincerely cared about the poor russian working classes and that's why they wanted to remove all the, in their eyes, evil jews from Russia.

I thought PJ had grown up from the days where he said stuff like "1000 Afghans aren't worth the life of a single American" but I'm not so sure anymore...

I don't think anybody here would seriously let such an explanation count if I said that the poor 9/11 bombers were really just trying to keep the imperialist Americans out of their precious Heimat to keep their limit resources for their precious Arabian national Heimat which they only want to keep free of foreigners who come to take their stuff (limited resources). From an Arabian POV I could also add the whole "if only you had lived with them, they drink alcohol, smash glass on the floor and pee onto the floor and the seats in the toilet stalls, those barbarians" - thing to make it perfect. Actually that's why I'm not fond of student parties anymore and I'm not even Arabian.

Also Heimat is a German word, of course it's a superior word. ~;p

[Brenus]

“i say ok it maybe be truth but have u seen it?! have u researched it without any media influenced or ignorancy or anything one & narrow minded?! NO!” Oh… You are doing the questions and the answers? :laugh4:
So, Yes, I have seen it, at least what the Nazi didn’t have time to destroy (plus family/village history) and not only once (in France, Austria, Serbia, Croatia). And yes, I studied it. The best in all the Holocausts Deniers is the fact that the Courageous Nazis never denied it (only their heirs), they just told it was not them, only the dead Nazis were responsible for it. We have more documents, plans and buildings left by the Nazis than we will ever need to know the truth.

“we shouldnt stick to the details, but u say burning the villages! but i say it was not what u r told to see then believe! because the villages that they set to fire supported many many rebels” I could laugh if it was not so sad: the 2 only partisans in my village was my Grand-father and my grandmother, and they even were not there when the SS came… YOUR problem is YOU believe that it is history when it is something still very alive in our villages…
The other thing YOU are missing is History is NOT written by Victors, but by survivors and following post-war political Agenda. Reason why people is the West still believe in “USSR was saved by Western Weapons” and believed that the Western Allies had better Armies that the Soviets.

“u r told to believe this by mass producing Documentaries & Movies” Nope. I don’t believe. I know, but studies and proofs left by the Murderers. If I see a Medieval Castle, I don’t believe in a Castle, I see it. Nor you believe in a car, or planes. They are just there. But I suppose in few centuries, people like you will explain that cars and planes are just big hoaxes… YOUR problem is YOU believe in what you want to believe, whatever proofs and evidences of the crimes are. We have the plans, the buildings, the perpetrators, the names of the victims (not all, I grant you this), but you still deny (de facto, you do) because that what you want to do.

“why not speak & discuss about this like what they claim in a FREE & DEMOCRATIC world?” Because the Holocaust Deniers, as the names told you, don’t want to discuss it. They deny it. As you do. I can ask you where are the Dutch Jews, the Hungarian Jews, the Roms Community of Darda (Croatia), you will still not answer the questions and deny it happened. Where are the Jews deported by the French of Pétain and hand-over to the Nazi? The French Railways that carried them under the order of the German Authorities have been PAID for it, so we know with this kind of documents (and in all Europe we have thousands of this kind of documents, in all Countries) we know that Jews were deported to Poland. So where are they? Why they didn’t came back… Answer: They are all dead when the Russian/USSR, English, French and US troops liberated the Camps.
I interviewed one of the foot Soldier belonging to the 2 DB (2nd Armoured Division) who did just that, and to see his eyes, and his skin when telling me that… But I supposed he was paid by the Jews/Zionist and USA to tell me this….

“why the world doesnt focus on Armenian Genocid or Kurdish Genocide or Bulgarian genocide or German Genocide & .... why the so called genocide must be focused on a peoples that have much 80% of world economy & Money?!” The Armenian Genocide is very well documented and discussed. Some said it is not the right qualification, figures are not discussed… What Kurdish genocide, or Bulgarian or German? Never exist only in the ones who want to deny the real Holocaust.
As your last sentence, it is just pure and plain Anti-Semitism. If you just look at the pictures of the deported, you will easily see how rich where the Polish Jews, or Russians, or Hungarians…

“(Does anybody know about this?!?! NO!!)” Very well known facts. Why shouldn't they? Did you STUDY the position and acts of the Ethnic Germans in the Countries they were expelled from? And in what hand you are saying for the Nazi’s crimes, well it was war, then for the Allies one, you just explain how bad they were.
Like when the Western Powers left Warsaw in the hand of Stalin, forgetting that Stalin did exactly the same in Greece, where the British reinstalled the King.

[Pannonian]

As much as I liked to believe that PJ isn't racist, I find that hard to believe as well given that he is part of a relatively wealthy family himself and owns several expensive guns. It sounds about as believable as saying that the industrials in the NSDAP really sincerely cared about the poor russian working classes and that's why they wanted to remove all the, in their eyes, evil jews from Russia.

I thought PJ had grown up from the days where he said stuff like "1000 Afghans aren't worth the life of a single American" but I'm not so sure anymore...

I don't think anybody here would seriously let such an explanation count if I said that the poor 9/11 bombers were really just trying to keep the imperialist Americans out of their precious Heimat to keep their limit resources for their precious Arabian national Heimat which they only want to keep free of foreigners who come to take their stuff (limited resources). From an Arabian POV I could also add the whole "if only you had lived with them, they drink alcohol, smash glass on the floor and pee onto the floor and the seats in the toilet stalls, those barbarians" - thing to make it perfect. Actually that's why I'm not fond of student parties anymore and I'm not even Arabian.

Also Heimat is a German word, of course it's a superior word. ~;p

PJ longs for the days glorified by military men in snazzy dress.

[Pannonian]

Anyone who wishes to excuse the deeds of the Nazis and imperial Japanese are likely to be severely wrongheaded in their worldview. I don't know about the Japanese, but most modern Germans don't fit into this category. There are quite a lot of Third Reich worshippers in other countries though.

[Fragony]

PJ longs for the days glorified by military men in snazzy dress.

What a nasty thing to say or even suggest. I reported this post, just so you know I did that I post it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I think that EasternSpartakus/Aram of Mada is upset because we tend to focus only on Nazi atrocities, and not those by the Soviets and even the Allies. The sufferings of ethnic Germans during, and more especially after the war, tends to be ignored.

To be fair, if you count forced deportation as genocide, then the experiences of ethnic Germans in Central and Eastern Europe after the war do match the Holocaust in terms of scale, and yet remain pretty much unknown in popular knowledge.

12-14 million ethnic Germans were forced to flee/were expelled from these places, and most estimates I see put the death toll at a very sizeable 2 million. If you consider that some estimates put the figure of ethnic Germans remaining in Eastern Europe are as low as 700,000, this would also make it a far more successful genocide than the Holocaust. The Allies forced 1.9 million Sudeten Germans to move to West Germany; the Soviets forced another 1 million to their own sphere - this out of a population of 3-3.5 million. The death rate of ethnic Germans that were forced from the Soviet occupation zone into work camps in Asia was up to 30%; at one point there were 1.5 million ethnic Germans forced into these camps.

I have no time for Nazi ideology and I don't mean to use this to apologize for them (it was, after all, largely stuff that happened after the war), but this does seem to be something of a hidden genocide.

btw, all figures are from here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%9350))

[Pannonian]

I think that EasternSpartakus/Aram of Mada is upset because we tend to focus only on Nazi atrocities, and not those by the Soviets and even the Allies. The sufferings of ethnic Germans during, and more especially after the war, tends to be ignored.

To be fair, if you count forced deportation as genocide, then the experiences of ethnic Germans in Central and Eastern Europe after the war do match the Holocaust in terms of scale, and yet remain pretty much unknown in popular knowledge.

12-14 million ethnic Germans were forced to flee/were expelled from these places, and most estimates I see put the death toll at a very sizeable 2 million. If you consider that some estimates put the figure of ethnic Germans remaining in Eastern Europe are as low as 700,000, this would also make it a far more successful genocide than the Holocaust. The Allies forced 1.9 million Sudeten Germans to move to West Germany; the Soviets forced another 1 million to their own sphere - this out of a population of 3-3.5 million. The death rate of ethnic Germans that were forced from the Soviet occupation zone into work camps in Asia was up to 30%; at one point there were 1.5 million ethnic Germans forced into these camps.

I have no time for Nazi ideology and I don't mean to use this to apologize for them (it was, after all, largely stuff that happened after the war), but this does seem to be something of a hidden genocide.

btw, all figures are from here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%9350))

There was a poster at TWC who was a descendant of one of these Germans who fled the Soviet advance and lost all they had owned for centuries. He had little time for those who equated this exodus with the deeds of the Nazis, saying that, with all that they'd done, Germany deserved to lose all they did and more. His older family members, who belonged to a generation who still remembered the days before the war, held the same view.

[Rhyfelwyr]

There was a poster at TWC who was a descendant of one of these Germans who fled the Soviet advance and lost all they had owned for centuries. He had little time for those who equated this exodus with the deeds of the Nazis, saying that, with all that they'd done, Germany deserved to lose all they did and more. His older family members, who belonged to a generation who still remembered the days before the war, held the same view.

That is interesting, although I still cannot accept the notion that ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe should be held accountable for the actions of the German state. I'm guessing this TWC poster's family were also fortunate enough to end up on the Allied side and not in the Soviet work camps.

[Pannonian]

That is interesting, although I still cannot accept the notion that ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe should be held accountable for the actions of the German state. I'm guessing this TWC poster's family were also fortunate enough to end up on the Allied side and not in the Soviet work camps.

I don't see how we on the Allied side can be faulted for what the Soviets did, far away from where we could affect anything. Morality is not an absolute position where one is either binarily on or off, but a matter of how much we can humanly do. To excuse the Nazis and imperial Japanese by equating them to the colonial British and French or the western Allies is something one consciously does and chooses to do; there is no necessity to do so but for one's choice to make that comparison in order to lighten the load of these villains. To do as much as we could in WWII was morality as far as we could extend it; to expect more is to expect more than was humanly possible, and to dismiss what we did because we didn't do more is to excuse the Axis again because we weren't morally absolutely perfect. As cited, this is backed up by someone who could have held a grudge, but who did not, because they considered their own moral position in the light of history and humanity. While those who did those deeds would have a hell of a time making up for them, their deeds do not reflect on their descendant, who accepted the weight of history without seeking to avoid it. AFAIK, most Germans are like this, and so I don't include them in the category of Third Reich sympathisers and apologists.

[Fragony]

The Soviets? The Polish did it, aftermath of WW2 was ugly. The Germans that were driven out and mostly killed didn't have any blood on their hands they were just citizens.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The Soviets? The Polish did it, aftermath of WW2 was ugly. The Germans that were driven out and mostly killed didn't have any blood on their hands they were just citizens.

While objectively true, Frags, history is a litany of ordinary folk trying to get through their lives -- who nevertheless take it on the chin for the political action of others. After the 5+ year gore-fest that was WW2 in Europe, I suspect that forgiveness was pretty thin on the ground.

We had a President once who, in the waning days of a major war, advocated "Malice toward none and charity for all," as the attitude to be taken following the conflict. Someone -- a sympathizer of the losing faction -- put a bullet through his head as a riposte. Forgiveness is not always easy.

[Empire*Of*Media]

People, I really have expectance of u too see my Posts and replies, even if is unpleasant for u, we r in this dam ned political topics to discuss, or we would all play Rome2!! so when u want to discuss, in discussion even goes to contention, and its natural we r not expect to kiss each other at the end!! so if u have something in mind tell us and dont ignore my or anyones pos that is against your favors & believes! i will try to be as polite and reasonable as it should be! Thank u !


“i say ok it maybe be truth but have u seen it?! have u researched it without any media influenced or ignorancy or anything one & narrow minded?! NO!
So, Yes, I have seen it, at least what the Nazi didn’t have time to destroy (plus family/village history) and not only once (in France, Austria, Serbia, Croatia).
Really?! for god's sake your too much old!! u were in Bosnia In Iraqi Kurdistan in Coratia in almost everywhere!!!!and u go savin them!! i think your prophet!! why u dont identify yourself we worship u!!!! O HOLY BRENUS PLZ COME TO IRAN & Afghanistan * Uganda &... TOO!! or maybe your there we dont know!!!!
And yes, I studied it. The best in all the Holocausts Deniers is the fact that the Courageous Nazis never denied it (only their heirs), they just told it was not them, only the dead Nazis were responsible for it. We have more documents, plans and buildings left by the Nazis than we will ever need to know the truth.
i heard say that Napoleon said in Spain that butcher every Gypsies & Catalan and even Aliens because he just hated their shape of Eyes!
Many quotes can be made easily like many quotes Jews made for Xerxes and Hamann & Garbling & manipulated the history and and Pourim!! (dont mean any any hate toward Jews, only an example, i didnt have any in mind NOW because if i say more u will deny them too!)

“we shouldnt stick to the details, but u say burning the villages! but i say it was not what u r told to see then believe! because the villages that they set to fire supported many many rebels” I could laugh if it was not so sad: the 2 only partisans in my village was my Grand-father and my grandmother, and they even were not there when the SS came… YOUR problem is YOU believe that it is history when it is something still very alive in our villages…
The other thing YOU are missing is History is NOT written by Victors, but by survivors and following post-war political Agenda. Reason why people is the West still believe in “USSR was saved by Western Weapons” and believed that the Western Allies had better Armies that the Soviets.

1. its war, supporting the rebels as they call it, its penalty is death in times of War for the aggressor/defender, the thing that your Beloved USA did in Exterminating The Children & Women and setting fire to their Homes & Farms in VIETNAM!! why u dont /like want/dare to talk about this?!?! because your Imperialistic Favors will be In Danger!!
2.“USSR was saved by Western Weapons” ok! and so we can say "WESTERN Governments were saved by Soviet Lives" if the Soviets did not resist, Nazism would take the world because Westerns were no match against German Military Science & Technology and Nazi Germany's People's & Army's Zeal & Faith!!

“u r told to believe this by mass producing Documentaries & Movies” Nope. I don’t believe. I know, but studies and proofs left by the Murderers. If I see a Medieval Castle, I don’t believe in a Castle, I see it. YOUR problem is YOU believe in what you want to believe, whatever proofs and evidences of the crimes are. We have the plans, the buildings, the perpetrators, the names of the victims (not all, I grant you this), but you still deny (de facto, you do) because that what you want to do.

Then, well i told about the Nuremberg trial and the SOAP PROOF!! if thats what u call it proof! those proofs remind me showing the proofs of North Korea about the West to their people!!
as long as 60% of the so called judges were jew or zionis jews, and they accepted the accusations only by words of some not by real documents and proofs i dont say intelligent liars and truth creators!


“why not speak & discuss about this like what they claim in a FREE & DEMOCRATIC world?” Because the Holocaust Deniers, as the names told you, don’t want to discuss it. They deny it. As you do. I can ask you where are the Dutch Jews, the Hungarian Jews, the Roms Community of Darda (Croatia), you will still not answer the questions and deny it happened. Where are the Jews deported by the French of Pétain and hand-over to the Nazi? The French Railways that carried them under the order of the German Authorities have been PAID for it, so we know with this kind of documents (and in all Europe we have thousands of this kind of documents, in all Countries) we know that Jews were deported to Poland. So where are they? Why they didn’t came back… Answer: They are all dead when the Russian/USSR, English, French and US troops liberated the Camps.
I interviewed one of the foot Soldier belonging to the 2 DB (2nd Armoured Division) who did just that, and to see his eyes, and his skin when telling me that…

1.They dont deny they want to reconsider the zionists exaggerating about holocust! why anyone wants to discuss about Zionis Jews abd their hatred toward the world, or those want to only see the holocaust matter LOGICAL not like 300The movie, should be seen as a wild racist beast?! we suppose you and your masters are true! why They dont understand these people why they dont bring the proofs they doubt, but instead they penalized them, lockup them, beat them by hiring thugs, and.... so that is called FEAR fear from uncovering truth & revealing their deception.
2. your right there is no jews in those regions because they were vanished by the nazis and many myths created for them!
from the Jewish mass killings at medieval age by catholics in time of plagues that reduced jewish population in all europe so significantly, can u tell me whats this 7 million jews living in Israel and over 12 million in USA and over almost 5 million in across Europe?!?! were they duplicated or mass produced?!!! why no one even thinks if they killed 6.5 million Jews in Holocaust in 1935-45, so the population of jews should be something below than 1-2 million in world!
hau! nasty & horrible great deception!

“why the world doesnt focus on Armenian Genocid or Kurdish Genocide or Bulgarian genocide or German Genocide & .... why the so called genocide must be focused on a peoples that have much 80% of world economy & Money?!” The Armenian Genocide is very well documented and discussed. Some said it is not the right qualification, figures are not discussed… What Kurdish genocide, or Bulgarian or German? Never exist only in the ones who want to deny the real Holocaust.
As your last sentence, it is just pure and plain Anti-Semitism. If you just look at the pictures of the deported, you will easily see how rich where the Polish Jews, or Russians, or Hungarians…

No Kurdish & German Genocide?!!? i...i really dont know what to say!! are u Zionist?! because we have more than 400.000 Kurdish jews and they dont hate Kurds! and German jews that dont hate Germans! Kurdish genocide NOT EXISTED only because world has not much information about them because they didnt have zionist Jews Super Extreme Economy & Wealth to Spread propogandas?! what a nasty reason for denying! yet your work is to deny!
yet i will just add yes not much information about Kurdish (and Assyrian Christians) Genocide because we are not in Europe like Bosnia, because they got freedom & saved because almost some 200.000 of them were killed by Serbs,then the world surprised because it was in europe! but the Kurds are giving martyrs over 5 million from the past 90 years! even the Masud Barzani President of Autonomous Kurdistan's Region Government of iraq said, from my 128 relatives and family, only one was survived! and they were my cousin and my CAT!! All of them died by Ba'sis and SADDAMists!! yet this is a little-no a bit a micron for iraqi kurdistan not Kurds in Turkey even were denied their existence until past 3 years! and their language was banned that speaking it even with your own family, its penalty was jailing over 10 years or even execute!! and i didnt say about Kurds Genocide in Syria & Iran!!
The German Genocide?!! ufffffff really readers havnt been tired?! because im ready to name the German Soft Genocide by USSR & Western Allies!

your very opportunist and u only dare to discuss about the matters u CAN deny and Attack it!! because i wrote too many and try to make them subversioned & destruct it too force and impose your believes that they told u to have it! IF NOT! why when i compared your hate toward Nazism, and matched to Imperialism that should be exactly like this, and when i told about Himler's Crimes compared & Matched to Winston Churchil, Stalin, Eisenhowers & Roosevelts Families &.. and crimes of any other western Imperialist governments that are one, and their colonization & extermination of poor people, u DIDNT BOLD THOSE AND ACCEPT OR DENY THEM!! because u know u CANT talk about them!!
i will not continue u know why?! your job is to deny and insult & mock & hate those not in ur favor! first i thought u dont want to know! know i know u r Servant or at least a loyal zealot advocate of your lovely Imperialists with too much fanaticism!!

[QUOTE=Rhyfelwyr;2053553016]I think that EasternSpartakus/Aram of Mada is upset because we tend to focus only on Nazi atrocities, and not those by the Soviets and even the Allies. The sufferings of ethnic Germans during, and more especially after the war, tends to be ignored.

To be fair, if you count forced deportation as genocide, then the experiences of ethnic Germans in Central and Eastern Europe after the war do match the Holocaust in terms of scale, and yet remain pretty much unknown in popular knowledge.

12-14 million ethnic Germans were forced to flee/were expelled from these places, and most estimates I see put the death toll at a very sizeable 2 million. If you consider that some estimates put the figure of ethnic Germans remaining in Eastern Europe are as low as 700,000, this would also make it a far more successful genocide than the Holocaust. The Allies forced 1.9 million Sudeten Germans to move to West Germany; the Soviets forced another 1 million to their own sphere - this out of a population of 3-3.5 million. The death rate of ethnic Germans that were forced from the Soviet occupation zone into work camps in Asia was up to 30%; at one point there were 1.5 million ethnic Germans forced into these camps.

I have no time for Nazi ideology and I don't mean to use this to apologize for them (it was, after all, largely stuff that happened after the war), but this does seem to be something of a hidden genocide.

btw, all figures are from here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%9350))

Exactly Friend! oh i see u wise & understandable too! i dont care they call me Anti-Semitism if they think like this maybe they r right in their believes!

but what i say u see one u must see another or it will be like u r told to believe like this! or it comes from fanaticism or from ignorancy!
we say HEY THEY KILLED JEWS LETS KILL NAZI advocates and destroy the Nazi Graves like Rudolf Hess, but we dont see for example the German Genocide and tortures by the West & East Allies Imperialists or Rwanda Extermination by US or Colonization of Poor India & Africa by UK, The Nuking Hiroshima and Ngazaki, and..... yes, those GOOD Democrat good faced peoples and good Angel the saviors of humanity like what HollyWood dictate and make that empathy to us , that r in power now and continuing and spreading their Imperialistic Favors and matter in the world!

(for the first listeners Better watch the ANONYMOUS in youtube or search anywhere that have infiltrated the most secrets of USA & Britains Secrets and r revealing their deceptions and crimes, those that led the WALL STREET MOVEMENT that was completely suppressed by USA government and no one criticized and condemned their suppression and standing against freedom seekers in the USA himself, u know they know what to do to dont let people see their ugly and evilry face!!)

i just say dont be one minded or narrow minded!

open your mind and remove your limitation of mind that is because of geographical, political, enviremental & or any other limitation

[a completely inoffensive name]

If the Greek public wishes to elect fascists let them. If the fascists do what fascists do and dismantle democracy, then as long as they did it after being elected by a large majority of the country, it will have been legal (under Greek law) and under the consent of the people.

If they wish to subvert democracy through extra-legal processes, then crush them by any means.

If they wish to follow in Hitlers footsteps after gaining power, then I have no problem with American Imperialism being on the right side of history again.

If I was Greek, I would be fighting the Golden Dawn tooth and nail, but at this point the Greeks are only driven further into their arms when the "outsiders" and "immigrants" interfere.

[Strike For The South]

It's at this point in the thread where I gleefully point out that fact PJ is an immigrant

so happy

[Seamus Fermanagh]

East'Spart':

Brenus is, I assure you, NOT a USA apologist. I don't think he has any real axe to grind against the USA, but he isn't a starry-eyed fan either.

I am far more of an US-Exceptionalist type than he.

[Brenus]

Ahh, the good old totalitarian methods.:2thumbsup:

First pretends to be funny but wage a smear campaign. Our Kurdish Friend uses the methods in vogue during the Nazism and Stalinism. First mock your opponent but don’t forget to tell he is lying: Done in the first answer.
Second, don’t answer just change subject, divert the attention. Do not hesitate to push too far: Done in the second answer.
Third, return the argument in (apparently, in this case) you favour focussing in the bad action of your opponent. The aim is to finish what you did in the second step: diversion. Again, don’t hesitate to push, opposing term are good: Done in the third answer.
Do NOT hesitate to falsify and distort a text for your opponent: Done in the fourth answer.
Affirm unproved assertions, lie in abundance. Don’t forget to NOT answer the question. Truth and Reality are NOT important. Done in the fifth answer
Underline your opponent or his allies faults, and don’t answer the question. Don’t forget to insult or humiliate (in a funny way in public) your opponent. Ask questions without even trying to find the answer. Remember the answer is not what you seek: Done in the sixth answer.
Make affirmations: Do not hesitate, bigger they are, better they are. Who care of facts when only YOU know the truth…
Try to keep the Moral High Ground as bonus: The last sentence was GREAT...

I think you qualified. Congratulation. :rtwyes:

However: You still didn’t tell me where the Jews from Budapest, the Roms from Darda, etc are.
For your problem of statistic, in the Middle-Ages the French Population was around 5 million. Despite all what you describe (and 1,600,000 young men killed on the battlefields (this ONLY for the WW1) they are now around 65,000,000.

You are a Holocaust denier. You are an anti-Semitic. You take all your “knowledge” from their sites, and you use their vocabulary and methods.
And, as my fanaticism for USA is very well known on regular readers of this site can tell, I can laugh on your non-sense rant.

In one think you are right. I will fight people like you as much as I can. As my Grand-Parents did during the war if needed. I will do it by words here. No Pasaran.

[Kralizec]

I think more specifically Panzer's point is that Muslims, like blacks, just suck and should stay away from our pristine Heimat. :mellow:

I don't agree with Panzer's opinion on this, but this is unfair.

Greece is disproportionally burdened by illegal immigrants compared to most other European countries. It's not surprising Golden Dawn attracts votes. They're violent, but so are a lot of leftist groups in Greece.

Of course the arrests and prosecutions have been a long time coming. There's the risk that they'll successfully paint themselves as martyrs - but that risk is not nearly as serious as the danger of letting these thugs break the law at will.

[Montmorency]

Greece is disproportionally burdened by illegal immigrants compared to most other European countries.

But that's a completely different matter. It is not an unfair characterization.

[PanzerJaeger]

:laugh4:

That my expression of sympathy and understanding for the Greeks enduring the uncontrolled influx of welfare immigrants resulted not only in the usual, thoughtless cries of racism, but also an entire sidebar of conjecture about what could possibly motivate me to feel that way, including suggested Nazi sympathies, shows just how detached this forum is from what is going on in Greece and many parts of Europe.

Fragony is correct; fault ultimately lies with a political/intellectual class that has succumbed to the idea that anything short of an open door policy is tantamount to racism and inhumanity. These are indeed the same people who are the most insulated from the results of such a policy. But placing blame solely at the feet of the political class removes any fault from the immigrant himself; conforming to the idealized notion of the immigrant that passes as reality among the middle and upper classes who have little day to day dealings with them.

Yes, Strike, I am a first generation immigrant to the United States, which gives me a unique perspective on the subject. My family and I came to the US to become Americans, not Germans living in America. We created a successful business and through it contributed to our community in the way of created jobs and taxes paid and even contributed just a little bit to the GDP; we did not come to this country to take advantage of a generous welfare system. In my relatively young 26 year life, I've already paid a significant sum to the government; I've never collected a check. We have made every effort to become American and conform to the cultural norms of our new country. My parents disallowed Deutsch spoken in our home; and while it certainly was not easy to fit into the culture of the American South, I made every effort to understand America - its history, its political structure, its economy, and its culture - better than the Americans around me. We did not seek out other Germans and attempt to build a nation within a nation off the largesse of a bloated welfare system and a paralyzed host population.

Welfare immigrants are the scum of the earth. The come to take, and leave when there's nothing left. In contrast to the popular notion, they do not strengthen a nation, they drain it of its resources and destroy labor markets. We endure a similar situation in America, although certainly not on the same level as what has occurred in Europe. Mexicans come to this nation to send American dollars back to Mexico and now demand that we change our laws to accommodate their desire to be fully accepted into the welfare system. They have become so numerous that it is now infeasible to deport them; thus some form of amnesty is the only realistic option. And yet, in the depths of the recession, when our nation was on its knees, many of those mexicans simply packed up and went back home because the US was no longer a teet worth sucking. The whole situation is disgusting to those of us who went through the arduous citizenship process. Germany is a wonderful country, but the United States is my home - not my current transitory benefit check provider. I'll be here through the good times and the bad.

Any sensible immigration policy would limit entry to those who could reasonably be perceived as a providing a net benefit to the nation in question; however, the short term benefit for those proponents of socialism to import dependent votes is more than enough to ignore the long term impact such a policy will have. There is a reason that Golden Dawn receives its largest share of votes from neighborhoods that have been filled with third world immigrants living off of the government dole. It could very well be that all those Greeks are secret Nazis longing for the heady days of German occupation (:rolleyes:), but maybe, just maybe, they are reacting rationally to the reality around them.

[Strike For The South]

I still love you

[Montmorency]

You are no better than those you denigrate, PJ - remember that.

[Fragony]

You are no better than those you denigrate, PJ - remember that.

Someone who has made every effort to be a benifit to society not better than a wellfare-tourist? Welfare tourists cost 8 billion a year here. Wellfare fraud goes on top of that but I got no exact numbers on that one, but it's a lot. And let's not even start about the rediculous overpresentation in the crime statistics.

[Montmorency]

The very first fallacy is that an immigrant - let alone a short-term immigrant - is a "welfare immigrant" and "scum of the Earth" if they don't abandon their entire history and culture and try to imitate the white residents of their locality to a T.

The second fallacy is that if an immigrant arrives to satisfy the predatory demand of employers for ever-cheaper labor, and works their butt off in poor conditions and with relatively little access to state protections or amenities, they are "welfare immigrants" and "scum of the earth" for daring to attempt to support their families with their meager income.

The third fallacy is specific to the Greek case, and it is that most of the long-term immigrants to/in Greece, whether documented or not, are "from the Third-World", and not from neighboring Southeastern European countries.

Ethnocentrism based on rational cost-benefit analysis is one thing, but a delusional ethnocentrism built upon hatred, arrogant self-importance, and misconception is a purely despicable thing.

[Fragony]

Ah sure, no such thing as wellfare tourism, it just isn't there, it's all rainbows and unicorns.

[Husar]

:laugh4:

That my expression of sympathy and understanding for the Greeks enduring the uncontrolled influx of welfare immigrants resulted not only in the usual, thoughtless cries of racism, but also an entire sidebar of conjecture about what could possibly motivate me to feel that way, including suggested Nazi sympathies, shows just how detached this forum is from what is going on in Greece and many parts of Europe.

Fragony is correct; fault ultimately lies with a political/intellectual class that has succumbed to the idea that anything short of an open door policy is tantamount to racism and inhumanity. These are indeed the same people who are the most insulated from the results of such a policy. But placing blame solely at the feet of the political class removes any fault from the immigrant himself; conforming to the idealized notion of the immigrant that passes as reality among the middle and upper classes who have little day to day dealings with them.


That you think open doors is actually the immigration policy in Europe shows how detached you are from actual realities on the European continent. Calling them "welfare immigrants" just supports the idea that you're racist and condescending. Your claim that our elites have no day to day dealings with thew immigrants is great, so how many dealings do you have with them? I for one live in an area with a whole lot of Turkish, Lebanese(Arabian) and Asian immigrants and I see no reason to vote far right.

[Montmorency]

A crucial point about 'national unity':

It is not at all important that all immigrants assimilate entirely to the majority group, or that the majority group retain socio-political advantages to ensure or prolong their primacy.

What's important is that all the various groups become acclimated to each other and find common ground in such things as industry, language(s), popular culture, or core national tenets grounded in history and general consensus.
For instance, isolation of ethnic enclaves, or really any sizeable territory with almost no representation from more than one ethnic or racial group, is pretty unhealthy for national unity - it cultivates resentment and parochialism.
This is why cities -especially dense ones - are so great: myriad small-but-tight-knit communities united around an economic, political, and social core. Even the most uniform neighborhoods will never be more than a few blocks away from divergence. So rather than having situations in which a given citizen may not have seen a member of another race or ethnicity in months or years, you get such situations as:

*A black man relating a humorous anecdote from his Jewish co-worker to his friends
*A Hispanic police officer on her beat as a Hasid crosses the street with his two small children, in a boulevard crowded with "black" faces
*Jewish groups spending Christmas day in Chinese restaurants, and Chinese groups spending Christmas day out eating Kosher
*Italian contractors waiting for their appointment with a South-Russian dentist as the Mexican receptionist chats with the Filipino mailman
*Unescorted burqa-clad women with veils upturned walking the streets of Lower Manhattan wearing high-heel shoes and carrying full bags from boutique stores
*Greeks, African-Americans, Ukrainians, Indians, Japanese, Romanians, Dominicans, Chinese, Bangladeshis, Koreans, Egyptians, Cambodians, Germans, and so-on mingling in public-school classrooms

But that's a more extreme example. It's not to say that entire populations should be redistributed throughout countries or the world to achieve maximum diversity; the point is that diversity breeds understanding, and homogeneity breeds insularity and ignorance.

More urgently, one of the most damaging factors towards the development of national unity is the presence of pompous bigots who actively ignore, dismiss, or undermine the process of mutual integration so as to maintain their own sense of difference, and thereby superiority - and then complain about the aloofness, disengagement, or animosity of the newcomers and leverage it as reason to implement penalties or restrictions against the newcomers. It's a hideous and thoughtless cycle of hostility and resentment, and it is spearheaded by cowards who can not endure the thought of ceding even an iota of their hegemony.

So what do we get when people like Panzerjaeger come over, take pride in abandoning all traces of their former home and heritage, predicate social success on the approbation of their highest-prestige neighbors, and deride and look down upon any immigrants that do not conform to this model of cultural sycophancy? We get the aforementioned pompous bigots reinforced in their pride of inbred homogeneity, and distrust and discontent fanned in the name of 'prosperity', 'stability', 'fairness', and - 'national unity'.

You and your ilk are the problem PJ, not the 'dirty Mexican welfare-leeches'. Spend some time living in an area where "whites" are 1/3 of the population or less, or where the proportion of 1st/2nd generation immigrants among the population exceeds 3/4. It might surprise you, but we are doing just fine. :brood:

[Husar]

Come on, everybody hates Chinatown and Italian restaurants because these filthy foreigners kept their original culture.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Ah sure, no such thing as wellfare tourism, it just isn't there, it's all rainbows and unicorns.

People aren't welfare touring Greece at the moment, though, are they? Welfare tourism does exist (here), but simply not in any numbers to make a dent in the budget compared to the amounts being spent on the usual shambles, say, the JSF. It's all about scale.

[Fragony]

That you think open doors is actually the immigration policy in Europe shows how detached you are from actual realities on the European continent. Calling them "welfare immigrants" just supports the idea that you're racist and condescending. Your claim that our elites have no day to day dealings with thew immigrants is great, so how many dealings do you have with them? I for one live in an area with a whole lot of Turkish, Lebanese(Arabian) and Asian immigrants and I see no reason to vote far right.

Don't we all. If things go wrong I don't want to hear you didn't see it comming though. I probably dispise these Golden Dawn guys just as much as you do, but at least I am not completily blind on why they exist. In short, you are idiots, and your idiocy is making bad things possible.

[Fragony]

People aren't welfare touring Greece at the moment, though, are they? Welfare tourism does exist (here), but simply not in any numbers to make a dent in the budget compared to the amounts being spent on the usual shambles, say, the JSF. It's all about scale.

You kidding me. We could buy over 350 JSF and build a carrier to put them on. In a single year.

[Husar]

Don't we all. If things go wrong I don't want to hear you didn't see it comming though. I probably dispise these Golden Dawn guys just as much as you do, but at least I am not completily blind on why they exist. In short, you are idiots, and your idiocy is making bad things possible.

It was idiotic to think that putting all the immigrants into segregated areas where the natives do not have to deal with them was somehow a good idea. And now we wonder why they're not properly integrated after we tried to avoid them for as long as possible. I've heard a few stories about foreign workers who wanted to integrate but weren't welcomed by any of the Germans they met. And now these same Germans complain about a lack of integration?

You can tell me that this is normal human behavior and I cannot disagree but that doesn't mean it is not flawed to some extent given the modern requirements. Somehow corporations have far less trouble adapting to and between different cultures and they are the real drivers of progress, not the government. Most people care far more about their job than about who is in government. The truth is that the governments and peoples' minds are so far behind a globalized economy that if you want to adjust the circumstances to human nature, you have to forbid companies to do business outside their nation of origin to "fix" this. Or you have to simply work towards adjusting peoples' attitudes toward one another. In other words the Nazis might as well ruin the economy for a long time if they throw all the foreigners and their companies out of a country.

That people only see the violent Nazi way out of this is just a result of a failure to educate people properly. And I'm not sure why entire nations and foreign policies should be adjusted to people who quite frankly have no idea. Unless you think science and knowledge are a despicable blight that prevents people from getting a good job because it makes them dumb. :dizzy2:

[Fragony]

It isn't a lack of science that makes you dumb, it's not understanding human beings that makes you dumb. You can't emphatise with their situation. Dumb is perhaps the wrong word, stupid is better, as those supporting lunacy are usually not dumb. But oh so stupid

[Husar]

It isn't a lack of science that makes you dumb, it's not understanding human beings that makes you dumb. You can't emphatise with their situation. Dumb is perhaps the wrong word, stupid is better, as those supporting lunacy are usually not dumb. But oh so stupid

I'm a human being and you clearly don't understand me.

[Fragony]

I'm a human being and you clearly don't understand me.

Sure you are a human being, but that doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with some cultures. Just is. Even in the west wher they have nothing to complain about, a waitor would probably be fired for bad catering if he doesn't meet their demands.

[Husar]

Sure you are a human being, but that doesn't mean there isn't something wrong with some cultures. Just is. Even in the west wher they have nothing to complain about, a waitor would probably be fired for bad catering if he doesn't meet their demands.

There is no waiter and there are not demands.
Yeah, but he didn't get hired and noone wanted to talk to him and that is unthinkable even in the East where they are not like the West in these things at all except where they are so you are completely wrong.

[PanzerJaeger]

*A black man relating a humorous anecdote from his Jewish co-worker to his friends
*A Hispanic police officer on her beat as a Hasid crosses the street with his two small children, in a boulevard crowded with "black" faces
*Jewish groups spending Christmas day in Chinese restaurants, and Chinese groups spending Christmas day out eating Kosher
*Italian contractors waiting for their appointment with a South-Russian dentist as the Mexican receptionist chats with the Filipino mailman
*Unescorted burqa-clad women with veils upturned walking the streets of Lower Manhattan wearing high-heel shoes and carrying full bags from boutique stores
*Greeks, African-Americans, Ukrainians, Indians, Japanese, Romanians, Dominicans, Chinese, Bangladeshis, Koreans, Egyptians, Cambodians, Germans, and so-on mingling in public-school classrooms

:laugh4:

This is some of the most starry-eyed, idealistic drivel I've read on this board in a long time. Is this really what you think is going on in Greece? Let me introduce you to reality (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/world/europe/15iht-greece15.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0).


ATHENS — As the Greek government struggles to save its debt-racked economy from collapse, another crisis is growing in the capital: A sharp increase in violent crime is stirring unrest among a public already demoralized by unending economic hardship.

Once a rarity in Athens, long proclaimed one of the safest European capitals, crime has grown uglier. Knifings are no longer unusual and assault rifles have been used in armed raids on street kiosks and jewelry shops.

According to police statistics for 2010, the most recent available, street robberies in the capital doubled compared with 2009, robberies of taxi drivers nearly quadrupled and homicides were up 50 percent. The figures are stark compared with those in other Greek cities where increases are mostly in the single digits.

“Crime has not just increased — it has become more complex and more violent, particularly organized crime,” said Thanassis Kokkalakis, a police spokesman.

Some offenses are broadly attributed to the growing desperation of drug addicts — thousands are on a waiting list for rehabilitation at state clinics — and a rising population of illegal immigrants, most of whom end up in Athens after crossing overland into mainland Greece from Turkey or by vessels to Greek islands.

Much of the crime, however, is attributed to Greeks or migrants from Balkan countries like Albania and Bulgaria, who, according to the police, exploit impoverished arrivals from Africa and Asia.

An attempted crackdown on organized crime has had limited success, provoking several shootouts. Two police officers were killed in March, and several more have been wounded.

Illicit trade and crime have created a no-go zone, splitting the heart of Athens in half. Commercial and archaeological sites frequented by tourists are largely unaffected. But dingy streets and plazas behind Omonia Square have become a haven for the drug and sex trades and the scene of frequent armed clashes between migrant groups wrestling for control of this trade. As tolerance wears down, migrants have been singled out in a wave of brutal attacks linked to far-right groups.

Residents and shopkeepers have had enough. Most of those who can have moved away, said Vassiliki Nikolakopoulou, 57, who heads a residents’ committee and has been robbed twice by people she perceived to be immigrants wielding knives.

“We were warning this would happen five years ago,” she said. “Now it’s a jungle.”

Ioanna Katseli, who manages a street kiosk near the city center, has been robbed several times by people she said were immigrants and drug addicts and said her husband, a taxi driver, had been threatened at knife-point by thieves.

Ms. Katseli, 58, stopped wearing jewelry after the murder of a 45-year-old owner of a kiosk in February, a few blocks away, by men wielding Kalashnikov rifles. “I’m not surprised my old customers stay away,” she said, adding that her efforts to find work elsewhere had failed.

Public anger peaked on May 10 when a 44-year-old Greek man was knifed to death on a street corner while his wife was going into labor. The assailants snatched the video camera with which the man had planned to film the birth.

After rumors that the killers were immigrants, a 21-year-old Bangladeshi man was stabbed to death. Two Afghan citizens have since been charged with the Greek man’s murder while the Bangladeshi’s killers remain at large.

A public demonstration protesting the Greek’s killing was hijacked by far-rightists who chased immigrants and beat them with clubs. Since then, a small crowd guards a makeshift shrine at the scene where the Greek man was stabbed, closing the road at night with a metal barrier draped in a Greek flag.

After the stabbings, Prime Minister George Papandreou called on his ministers to act, warning that “Athens will sink if it descends into violence.”

The city’s mayor, Giorgos Kaminis, conceded that the situation was out of control.

“The economic crisis, combined with extreme criminality, renders the risk of the city collapsing a clear possibility,” he said, naming drug addicts and illegal immigrants as the biggest problems.

In recent weeks, police have increased patrols and hundreds of illegal immigrants have been evacuated from squats. The authorities have created several facilities, outside Athens, for detention of immigrants facing deportation. There are plans to move drug rehabilitation clinics from the city center.

Many migrants argue they are being punished for the wrongdoing of a few. “Most of us just want to work,” said Salim, 28, who came to Athens from Afghanistan in 2006 and manages a convenience store near Victoria Square. He declined to give his surname for fear of reprisals; his store windows have been smashed twice in two weeks.

The police say half of all crime suspects are immigrants.

“The security problems in the city center are largely linked to the problem of illegal immigration,” said Mr. Kokkalakis, the police spokesman. “Many migrants resort to petty crime, thefts, burglaries, prostitution and drug dealing to survive and pay off their supposed benefactors” — smugglers who bring migrants for a fee.

Yiannis Panousis, a professor of criminology at the University of Athens, said the problem could not be attributed to immigrants or drugs. Police raids should be more focused, he said.

“If organized crime is broken, the cover-ups will be exposed,” he said, noting that migrants resorting to crime are protected by the people who exploit them.

The economic crisis and 16 percent official unemployment are not the cause of the increased crime, said Yiannis Panousis, a professor of criminology at the University of Athens. “You don’t start mugging because you’ve lost your job," he said, but tolerance had been eroded.

Vassiliki Papoulia, 46, an employee at a public company near Koumoudourou Square, where dozens of migrants sleep at night, said: “I was never a racist but I’ve become one. Why can’t we send them all home?”

Others are more understanding. Aliki Katsikari, 63, manages a restaurant in the trendy district of Psyrri and employs a Bangladeshi and a Pakistani in her kitchen. Her street has been the site of brawls between gangs of Asian and African immigrants and is a hangout for drug addicts.

“It’s not their fault,” she said. “It’s the neglect of the state.”

Since far-right parties made gains in local elections in November, vigilante groups have patrolled city squares.

“An elderly citizen who sees a man on a motorbike hit an immigrant with a club may applaud the attacker,” said Mr. Panousis, the criminologist, adding that the cause was not racism, but fear.

For Mr. Panousis, the murder on May 10 was a turning point.

“People identified with him,” he said of the Greek man with the pregnant wife. “He wasn’t a taxi driver or a night-shift security guard. He was just a regular guy going to his car.”

Surging crime, deteriorating property values, imported ethnic strife, ghettoization of formerly established areas, and reactionary anti-immigrant violence are just a few of the results of open door immigration. You can stick your head in the sand and sing Kumbaya all you like, but it will not change the reality of the situation.



You and your ilk are the problem PJ, not the 'dirty Mexican welfare-leeches'. Spend some time living in an area where "whites" are 1/3 of the population or less, or where the proportion of 1st/2nd generation immigrants among the population exceeds 3/4. It might surprise you, but we are doing just fine. :brood:

I have little interest in addressing made up anecdotes and personal attacks. The fact that you apparently have the means to spend the majority of your day in front of a computer playing games and/or writing essay length posts on a gaming forum makes it pretty clear that you are not living in the situation being discussed, so please do not imply otherwise. Enjoy your day.

[Fragony]

There is no waiter and there are not demands.
Yeah, but he didn't get hired and noone wanted to talk to him and that is unthinkable even in the East where they are not like the West in these things at all except where they are so you are completely wrong.

From my side there aren't all that much demands, but I want to be treated as I treat others. And that is where things usually go wrong. An immigrant leaves his stuff behind, a colonist takes his stuff with him.

[BroskiDerpman]

Descendant from an immigrant here. I do agree about working to contribute to where I live (US) I mean why not? That would be beneficial to me that the US is well off so I contribute to this nation so I can be well off too and live (stay) there. So if there was conflict between USA and China I'd support the US for the betterment of the nation and myself.


I can speak (horribly) Chinese, why shouldn't I know how to? It doesn't harm me or anything except I can have other opportunities and useful abilities in life.

Many people in the US would consider me Chinese but from my experience the Chinese think I'm "American". :wall:

[HoreTore]

:laugh4:

This is some of the most starry-eyed, idealistic drivel I've read on this board in a long time. Is this really what you think is going on in Greece? Let me introduce you to reality.

Yeah, how 'bout some? How about the fact that the Golden Dawn is chock full of criminals, both their voters and their representatives? How does voting in criminals work to fix problems with crime, exactly? How about the fact that there is virtually no "welfare immigration" in Greece, as Greece doesn't have any money anyway and the immigrants targeted by the Golden Dawn are illegals who wouldn't be entitled to anything anyway?

You're mixing concerns and issues from all over Europe and putting them all into Greece. That's not how Greece works, pipe down.

[Papewaio]

"There is a reason that Golden Dawn receives its largest share of votes from neighborhoods that have been filled with third world immigrants living off of the government dole. It could very well be that all those Greeks are secret Nazis longing for the heady days of German occupation (), but maybe, just maybe, they are reacting rationally to the reality around them."

Golden Dawn's official magazine identifies themselves as Nazis so I think that part is not part of the argument. The why and therefore the solution is more interesting.

What I've observed in Sydney is that new immigrants will tend to bunch together around favourite supermarkets, delis, barbers, restaurants. Essentially new ones will latch on to something familiar and the majority of the time it will be access to food. So unless PJ your family gave up all German food it isn't really any different to other immigrant families.

The smaller the community and the longer it has been in an area the more likely it will have take on English as the main language.

As for another reason they chose to live. It is generally where they can afford so I see a lot of new immigrants living in the poorer parts of Sydney were the locals had a lower socio economic standing then general. Perhaps in Greece it is the same and the areas immigrants are moving into already had a worse reputation then the norm.

I do not believe that a pile of money forms a moral high ground.

[Husar]

From my side there aren't all that much demands, but I want to be treated as I treat others. And that is where things usually go wrong. An immigrant leaves his stuff behind, a colonist takes his stuff with him.

I don't want others to treat me the way you treat others, I want them to treat me the way I treat my uncle. And that's exactly where things go wrong because noone can know how I treat my uncle. An immigrant comes to get a better life, a colonist comes to take someone else's good life and country.

[HoreTore]

As for another reason they chose to live. It is generally where they can afford so I see a lot of new immigrants living in the poorer parts of Sydney were the locals had a lower socio economic standing then general. Perhaps in Greece it is the same and the areas immigrants are moving into already had a worse reputation then the norm.

Living expenses are our prime expense. It trumps everything else and takes a huge chunk out of your income. Immigrants, and every single other person, bases their choice of living mainly on what can be afforded. It's not an influx of immigrants causing a drop in property values, it's always a low property value causing an influx of immigrants. The common bitching by people claiming their house devalued is always caused by those people either forgetting how it used to be or simply cannot accept that they used to be or are poor themselves.

And National Socialism and other totalitarian and undemocratic forces have always had an appeal to a large segment of the poor. It's no surprise that the greek poor turn to the same. Also worth considering is that Greece is a very recent democracy, and the old dictator still has an appeal. In addition to that, their war of independence, resulting in an absolute monarchy, is utterly romanticized. I had a look through the War of Independence unit of a greek international school last week, and it would've put Soviet education on ww2 to shame. And that was an international IB school, I shudder to think how they're portrayed in public schools.

Finally, I would like to see some actual stats on Golden Dawn voting. The trend for the rest of Europe is the complete opposite - the more immigrants there are in an area, the more left-wing the native population will be, with right-wing parties having their base in rural hillbillyland. (and if you ask any marxist why he went to the left, I can almost guarantee it was because of anti-racism)

[Tuuvi]

:laugh4:

This is some of the most starry-eyed, idealistic drivel I've read on this board in a long time. Is this really what you think is going on in Greece? Let me introduce you to reality (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/world/europe/15iht-greece15.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0).

I thought it was pretty obvious that Montmorency was describing everyday life in just about any cosmopolitan city in the US, those were not made up anecdotes. This may not be the situation in Greece, but earlier on you criticized Mexican immigrants to the US so his points are relevant.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That my expression of sympathy and ...just maybe, they are reacting rationally to the reality around them.

This was the most cogently expressed version of your general argument on this class of issues that I have seen you post.


Husar

I didn't interpret "welfare immigrant" as an inherently racist epithet. I thought he was trying to avoid that overtone to clarify his argument. I understand your point as well, since all of the immigrant groups considered "problematic" for Greece and the USA are melanin advantaged, but I read it as him attempting to NOT bring that into the discussion and to frame it more neutrally in terms of ethical choice when facing economic hardship.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Living expenses are our prime expense. It trumps everything else and takes a huge chunk out of your income. Immigrants, and every single other person, bases their choice of living mainly on what can be afforded. It's not an influx of immigrants causing a drop in property values, it's always a low property value causing an influx of immigrants. The common bitching by people claiming their house devalued is always caused by those people either forgetting how it used to be or simply cannot accept that they used to be or are poor themselves.

And National Socialism and other totalitarian and undemocratic forces have always had an appeal to a large segment of the poor. It's no surprise that the greek poor turn to the same. Also worth considering is that Greece is a very recent democracy, and the old dictator still has an appeal. In addition to that, their war of independence, resulting in an absolute monarchy, is utterly romanticized. I had a look through the War of Independence unit of a greek international school last week, and it would've put Soviet education on ww2 to shame. And that was an international IB school, I shudder to think how they're portrayed in public schools.

Finally, I would like to see some actual stats on Golden Dawn voting. The trend for the rest of Europe is the complete opposite - the more immigrants there are in an area, the more left-wing the native population will be, with right-wing parties having their base in rural hillbillyland. (and if you ask any marxist why he went to the left, I can almost guarantee it was because of anti-racism)

I too was perplexed here. PJ seemed to suggest that the GD groups greatest support was among poor immigrant enclaves. That's counter intuitive. Unless, of course, the whole line was sarcasm in which case I missed it.

[PanzerJaeger]

How about the fact that there is virtually no "welfare immigration" in Greece, as Greece doesn't have any money anyway and the immigrants targeted by the Golden Dawn are illegals who wouldn't be entitled to anything anyway?



Hi HoreTore -

Please educate yourself on the subject before issuing lectures on it. First, illegal immigrants in Greece are eligible for government assistance (http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2013/10/02/feature-01). Of course, those familiar with the situation understand that these locusts are simply using Greece as a gateway to Western Europe (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-08-06/greece-illegal-immigrants/56819230/1). That is why they continue to come despite the country's dire situation. The could care less about Greece or the strain (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/07/world/europe/vast-police-operation-targets-migrants-in-athens.html?_r=0) they are putting on its citizens; it's just a cheap hostel to them.

This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the thread. I assumed a certain level of knowledge about the situation, and maybe I should have been more clear from the beginning. These are not the idealized immigrants romanticized in Western culture - hard working, fiercely patriotic to their new country and thankful for the opportunity to be there. They are burdensome and unwelcome transients chasing a better benefit package in wealthier European nations.

Deep down, I think that most here would be quite upset if a group of people moved into your neighborhood, bringing with them crime, violence, and poverty, who have no interest in putting down roots and really don't even want to be there any longer than necessary. No nation should allow its citizens to be used in such a manner. When these immigrants do move on to bigger and better in Western Europe, they leave behind shattered communities.


I do not believe that a pile of money forms a moral high ground.

I'm not sure you could stuff another word in my mouth in this thread if you tried.



I too was perplexed here. PJ seemed to suggest that the GD groups greatest support was among poor immigrant enclaves. That's counter intuitive. Unless, of course, the whole line was sarcasm in which case I missed it.

Golden Dawn's greatest support comes from native Greeks living in neighborhoods with high immigrant populations. In contrast to the utopian visions of diversity and ethnic harmony put forth by some in this thread, those living closest to these immigrants are the most averse to their presence. They have the clearest understanding of how this mass immigration is impacting their communities.

[Strike For The South]

*A black man relating a humorous anecdote from his Jewish co-worker to his friends
*A Hispanic police officer on her beat as a Hasid crosses the street with his two small children, in a boulevard crowded with "black" faces
*Jewish groups spending Christmas day in Chinese restaurants, and Chinese groups spending Christmas day out eating Kosher
*Italian contractors waiting for their appointment with a South-Russian dentist as the Mexican receptionist chats with the Filipino mailman
*Unescorted burqa-clad women with veils upturned walking the streets of Lower Manhattan wearing high-heel shoes and carrying full bags from boutique stores
*Greeks, African-Americans, Ukrainians, Indians, Japanese, Romanians, Dominicans, Chinese, Bangladeshis, Koreans, Egyptians, Cambodians, Germans, and so-on mingling in public-school classrooms

Did you just finish watching Crash?

I find myself agreeing with PJ


Golden Dawn's greatest support comes from native Greeks living in neighborhoods with high immigrant populations. In contrast to the utopian visions of diversity and ethnic harmony put forth by some in this thread, those living closest to these immigrants are the most averse to their presence. They have the clearest understanding of how this mass immigration is impacting their communities.

It's like this everywhere though.

[Montmorency]

Surging crime, deteriorating property values, imported ethnic strife, ghettoization of formerly established areas, and reactionary anti-immigrant violence are just a few of the results of open door immigration. You can stick your head in the sand and sing Kumbaya all you like, but it will not change the reality of the situation.

If you would read your own article, and other sources on the Greek situation, you would see that the problems come mostly from the native Greeks and immigrants from their neighboring Balkan states. Immigrants from Asia are usually illegal immigrants, and/or are merely using Greece as a transit point into Western Europe. So stow your baseless crud about "3rd-World" immigrants overrunning Greece to live off welfare. I mean, who would even go to Greece specifically for welfare tourism? They'd be better off wherever they started.

Separate from the matter of immigration into Western Europe, it's pretty clear that Asian migrants in Greece are not an undue burden other than in the sense that the whole country is an economic shambles.


Please educate yourself on the subject before issuing lectures on it. First, illegal immigrants in Greece are eligible for government assistance. Of course, those familiar with the situation understand that these locusts are simply using Greece as a gateway to Western Europe. That is why they continue to come despite the country's dire situation. The could care less about Greece or the strain they are putting on its citizens; it's just a cheap hostel to them.

This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the thread. I assumed a certain level of knowledge about the situation, and maybe I should have been more clear from the beginning. These are not the idealized immigrants glorified in Western culture - hard working, fiercely patriotic to their new country and thankful for the opportunity to be there. They are burdensome and unwelcome transients chasing a better benefit package in wealthier European nations.

Deep down, I think that most here would be quite upset if a group of people moved into your neighborhood, bringing with them crime, violence, and poverty, who have no interest in putting down roots and really don't even want to be there any longer than necessary. No nation should allow its citizens to be used in such a manner. When these immigrants do move on to bigger and better in Western Europe, they leave behind shattered communities.

So you blame migrants - for being migrants? Seriously?

They are not "bringing" crime with them, they are merely amplifying the existing situation. Even if there were no Asian migrants in Greece whatsoever, violent crime and ethnic conflict would still be sky-high in Greece; I'm sure the Golden Dawn would be placing proportionally much more blame on Albanians in Greece.


Golden Dawn's greatest support comes from native Greeks living in neighborhoods with high immigrant populations. In contrast to the utopian visions of diversity and ethnic harmony put forth by some in this thread, those living closest to these immigrants are the most averse to their presence. They have the clearest understanding of how this mass immigration is impacting their communities.

And it doesn't seem to you to be a result of the general Depression in Greece? Of course when the economy is collapsing people look for scapegoats - that doesn't mean the immigrants are somehow destroying communities by their villainous natures. In this state of affairs, even native Greeks moving from one neighborhood to another would create massive frictions - as it does.

It's amazing how you affirm a narrative so oafish in its conception, that people seeking job opportunities are somehow villains who by their very presence rightfully invite retribution from 'put-upon' natives, that they are responsible for increased crime when the increased crime is mostly perpetrated by natives against them...

Here's what a genuinely-rational position with respect to Greece might look like: Greece is still in the middle of an ongoing economic catastrophe, and accordingly living standards and social cohesion have declined, while crime has spiked. Given this situation, migrants moving through Greece to other parts of the EU are further straining the state's limited resources, and contributing to rising xenophobia and violence. In addition to potentially being undesirable in Western Europe for their being undocumented, Asian migrants in Greece are not currently contributing much to the tottering economy not least due to lack of opportunities and labor demand, and furthermore are potentially reducing their overall long-term economic prospects and increasing their risk of suffering interpersonal violence by residing in Greece for any period of time. For the duration of the crisis at least, Greece should set a moratorium on all documented visits to or stays in Greece longer than, say, a month, while raising the priority of border security in order to reduce the number of undocumented visitors, migrants, and immigrants, to which end the EU should provide logistical support. All existing migrants who wish to move on from Greece should be expedited on their journey; those who intend to become fully-naturalized citizens and live permanently in Greece should be shielded from local resentment and helped to integrate into the Greek community.


I have little interest in addressing made up anecdotes and personal attacks. The fact that you apparently have the means to spend the majority of your day in front of a computer playing games and/or writing essay length posts on a gaming forum makes it pretty clear that you are not living in the situation being discussed, so please do not imply otherwise.

Quite ironic.

I live in Queens County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Queens), buddy - get some perspective.

[Fragony]

'They are not "bringing" crime with them, they are merely amplifying the existing situation.'

What is the existing situation in the Netherlands than?

Majority of the prison-population wasn't born here, the good part of the rest was born here but have an immigrant background.

[Montmorency]

You have fewer than 15,000 prisoners, I believe.

And what does that have to do with Greece?

[Fragony]

You have fewer than 15,000 prisoners, I believe.

And what does that have to do with Greece?

It has to do with amplying the situation. What situation is being amplified. Fact:immigrants bring crime.

The absolute majority of Maroccan youth has a criminal record, so how about that then.

[Montmorency]

You've had about 50K Moroccan immigrants in the past 15 years, so I doubt it.

[Fragony]

You've had about 50K Moroccan immigrants in the past 15 years, so I doubt it.

They get children no? But says something n'est pas. It's the same in Belgium, France, Sweden, etc. You can doubt it all you want. Doesn't change the facts.

[Husar]

This is the point I have been trying to make throughout the thread. I assumed a certain level of knowledge about the situation, and maybe I should have been more clear from the beginning. These are not the idealized immigrants romanticized in Western culture - hard working, fiercely patriotic to their new country and thankful for the opportunity to be there. They are burdensome and unwelcome transients chasing a better benefit package in wealthier European nations.

Deep down, I think that most here would be quite upset if a group of people moved into your neighborhood, bringing with them crime, violence, and poverty, who have no interest in putting down roots and really don't even want to be there any longer than necessary. No nation should allow its citizens to be used in such a manner. When these immigrants do move on to bigger and better in Western Europe, they leave behind shattered communities.

You could've been more clear about what kind of people you're talking about, basically only the illegal immigrants who are also up to no good.
It's still delusional to think that Europeans are somehow in favor of them or okay with them. Police here tell us openly that there are roaming bands of criminals from Eastern Europe that break into peoples' apartements and they are being hunted and prosecuted and I haven't heard a single lefty say that they should be left alone. So what's all this about then? I don't go around telling people how Republicans love Mexican drug cartels because they help them play war and shoot their guns or something equally silly.

As for immigration issues, that goes both ways since xenophobic natives make that really hard for the immigrants if they shut them out of "normal" life in a country as it often happens.

[HoreTore]

Hi HoreTore -

Please educate yourself on the subject before issuing lectures on it.

I would suggest you do the same, starting with learning the difference between an asylum applicant and an illegal immigrant.

[Fragony]

You could've been more clear about what kind of people you're talking about, basically only the illegal immigrants who are also up to no good.
It's still delusional to think that Europeans are somehow in favor of them or okay with them. Police here tell us openly that there are roaming bands of criminals from Eastern Europe that break into peoples' apartements and they are being hunted and prosecuted and I haven't heard a single lefty say that they should be left alone.

Political correctness has a hierarchy, wait untill the police says that it are mostly Roma's who steal everything they can carry and lefties will go for your eyes.

[Husar]

Political correctness has a hierarchy, wait untill the police says that it are mostly Roma's who steal everything they can carry and lefties will go for your eyes.

That's pretty much what they say and I haven't heard any lefties disagree. In fact there are a whole lot of people who say the Roma steal a lot. Apparently they used false/stolen credit cards to buy cigarettes at my previous workplace. One day my boss suddenly had a lot of paper saying all the transactions were fraudulent.

I have no problem with sending the heavily criminal immigrants back, I only have a problem when people just want to send all immigrants back because of some bad apples.

[Fragony]

That's pretty much what they say and I haven't heard any lefties disagree. In fact there are a whole lot of people who say the Roma steal a lot. Apparently they used false/stolen credit cards to buy cigarettes at my previous workplace. One day my boss suddenly had a lot of paper saying all the transactions were fraudulent.

I have no problem with sending the heavily criminal immigrants back, I only have a problem when people just want to send all immigrants back because of some bad apples.

Maybe we can send those who say that with them. But if the police would warn for Roma's specifically, what is entirely justified, the machine kicks into gear, A CAUSE, A CAUSE, my sanity for a cause (instant Shakespear syndrome, rewritten). People shouldn't look away from obvious problems, almost all Roma's come here to steal & beg and it's organised. We aren't as sensitive about just saying as it is, but in (naturally) Sweden there is outrage because the police keeps a list of Roma's. Outrage! How dare they! It's not xenophobia it's just acknowledging a problem. Ever hear someone complaining about Asians or Hindi?

[Husar]

Maybe we can send those who say that with them. But if the police would warn for Roma's specifically, what is entirely justified, the machine kicks into gear, A CAUSE, A CAUSE, my sanity for a cause (instant Shakespear syndrome, rewritten). People shouldn't look away from obvious problems, almost all Roma's come here to steal & beg and it's organised. We aren't as sensitive about just saying as it is, but in (naturally) Sweden there is outrage because the police keeps a list of Roma's. Outrage! How dare they! It's not xenophobia it's just acknowledging a problem. Ever hear someone complaining about Asians or Hindi?

Asians are too good at maths and Hindi all smell. ~;)

But seriously, I think the difference is that the Roma have no country of their own and are not welcome in the countries they live in. So for generations upon genrations they have learned to take what they can get to survive and not to respect the law of the land because the law of the land does not respect them (that's my best guess anyway). That doesn't make their criminal activities okay but shuffling them around between countries is not a solution either.

[Fragony]

Asians are too good at maths and Hindi all smell. ~;)

But seriously, I think the difference is that the Roma have no country of their own and are not welcome in the countries they live in. So for generations upon genrations they have learned to take what they can get to survive and not to respect the law of the land because the law of the land does not respect them (that's my best guess anyway). That doesn't make their criminal activities okay but shuffling them around between countries is not a solution either.

Congratulations it's an idiot! ;)

It's organised mia muca, these beggars are picked up with a fat Mercedes when their shift is over, these sick kids are drugged up to their eyeballs, these missing limbs are amputated. Do you know how their overlords live in eastern-europe, very very nice

[HoreTore]

Congratulations it's an idiot! ;)

It's organised mia muca, these beggars are picked up with a fat Mercedes when their shift is over, these sick kids are drugged up to their eyeballs, these limbs are amputeted. Do you know how their overlords live in eastern-europe, very very nice

Yeah, screw drugs, there's more money in change!!

Honestly people....

I'm not sure if its worth bothering with facts here, but anyway: "the overlord" is the local moneylender, who takes a rather high interest since he's not an official bankier.

Also, Balts and Poles have always faetured in the theft-statistic, it's hardly a Roma-only problem(who tend to do more shoplifting stuff, while the balts break into cabins).

[Husar]

Congratulations it's an idiot! ;)

It's organised mia muca, these beggars are picked up with a fat Mercedes when their shift is over, these sick kids are drugged up to their eyeballs, these limbs are amputeted. Do you know how their overlords live in eastern-europe, very very nice

Congratulations, it's a Nazi! ;)

They want to genocide everybody without blue eyes and blonde hair, they're dangerous, already murdered a lot of people and their bosses are vicious criminals who live a very good life, why don't you know that?

[Fragony]

Yeah, screw drugs, there's more money in change!!

Honestly people....

I'm not sure if its worth bothering with facts here, but anyway: "the overlord" is the local moneylender, who takes a rather high interest since he's not an official bankier.

But of course Horrie http://kukoncik.com/bizarre/new-architectural-direction-gypsy-castles.html

I will never accuse them of having any taste though gypsy castles < google

[HoreTore]

But of course Horrie http://kukoncik.com/bizarre/new-architectural-direction-gypsy-castles.html

I will never accuse them of having any taste though gypsy castles < google

Are you under the impression that nobody is aware that there are people with money in areas without money....? What's next, photos of a black man in harlem with bling?

[Fragony]

Are you under the impression that nobody is aware that there are people with money in areas without money....? What's next, photos of a black man in harlem with bling?

lol Horrie, maybe Edyzmedieval can fill you in he's from romania. Those are headquarters of criminal gangs. They even pimp it, yo

[HoreTore]

lol Horrie, maybe Edyzmedieval can fill you in he's from romania. Those are headquarters of criminal gangs. They even pimp it, yo

Again, how is this supposed to surprise anyone?

Where do you think the black guy in harlem got his three tons of bling from anyway? Trading stocks at wall street?

[Fragony]

Again, how is this supposed to surprise anyone?

Twice needs a first to exist, 'again' 'what' exactly

[Beskar]

I know this maybe a revolutionary concept, but there is a difference between Legal and Illegal immigration.

Legal immigration usually consists of stringent measures ensuring eligibility for working in the nation and possessing the funds able to house, food and cloth yourself, so you do not depend on the state, you usually pay more tax/social security ontop and have limited benefits. Panzer's family would have been legal immigrants to the USA. Apart from some strains of hyper-nationalism, usually used by immigrants/first-generation to make themselves more-native than natives as they feel they have to, to fit in, I am sure he is a well adjusted individual and helps his community just like the others.

Illegal immigration is a different kettle of fish. It is generally dirt-poor individuals who don't have a penny to their name and they are constantly 'on the run' from the legal authorities. They do not have entitlements and only receive the bare minimum of the system which is below satisfactory. They have to resort to crime for money and food, which on the grander scope they are already committing crime by being in the country, these petty crimes are nothing. There are often others found in slave-like conditions and some of these are illegally trafficked into the host nation, so they cannot free themselves from horrible conditions.

So straight away we have two groups of people being discussed and getting lumped together. Three, if you include the Human Trafficking element which people who legally reside in host nations inflict upon vulnerable people.

The big thing with Golden Dawn and its kin, and even whilst reading the topic, people seem to 'miss the difference'. So forgive me for mentioning you again, Panzer, but Golden Dawn wouldn't make an exception for you, because you are not a 'true Greek' and by that, generations of Greek blood, even if you were a model member of society. Such as some people misguidedly believe 'Black' 'Latino's' and others cannot be 'true Americans' even when they are model members of their society and maybe even 7th generation.

[Fragony]

Golden Dawn is scum, no question. But did you wonder why they exist. What lefits intellecuals will neverunderstand isthat they simply don't get things very well.

Say thing with poetry, better than just hitting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

[Husar]

Sometimes I think you are a bot who posts the same random things again and again regardless of the curse of the discussion.

Please show me these leftists who think gypsy crimes are okay and should be tolerated or whatever you accuse them of doing.
Also what do leftist intellectuals have to do with the existence of Golden Dawn? Are you saying if we deport all immigrants we won't have Nazis anymore? By that logic everybody could have surrendered to the Romans so there wouldn't be war anymore.

[Fragony]

Are you mad? That saying is in reference to racist Nazis in the first place. People like golden dawn lol

No tell me it isn't so

[Kralizec]

Roma, leftists and whatnot

Indeed, leftists are soft on Roma criminals. Just look at France, where those bloody leftists stopped the deportation of Roma the moment that Hollande got elected.

...yeah.

[Fragony]

Indeed, leftists are soft on Roma criminals. Just look at France, where those bloody leftists stopped the deportation of Roma the moment that Hollande got elected.

...yeah.

Gotta hate competition.

But I think that it was under Sarkozy that France starting taking this route, i don't think it comes from that onion Hollande but I am not sure of that

[HoreTore]

Gotta hate competition.

But I think that it was under Sarkozy that France starting taking this route, i don't think it comes from that onion Hollande but I am not sure of that

Honestly frags, do you ever start to check the basic facts of a case?

Yes, it was Sarky who started deportations, as anyone with half a brain knows.

[Fragony]

Honestly frags, do you ever start to check the basic facts of a case?

Yes, it was Sarky who started deportations, as anyone with half a brain knows.

My half of a brain was correct then no? No I don't check things, if I am wrong I just suffer it when corrected. But I wasn't wrong was I. Sarky started it, Hollande keeps doing it. One of the two is a total hypocrite.

[Brenus]

Only Foreigners still believe that Holland is a Socialist or a Lefty...:laugh4::laugh4:
He was elected pretending being one, making promises to do a left orientated program but he is worst rightist than Sarkozy. All his political and economical actions are more rightist than Sarkozy. Ok, he doesn't act like a Lunatic as Sarkozy did...
Total, last local election, 64 % abstention, extreme-Right go to vote and got 40 % of the vote. So, Media, lap-dog of the Big Parties, started their hymn to the "Republican" vote against the menace of the Front National. Sorry, I will not vote for the them. The Extreme-Right Party is the guard dog of the system, and we, lefties fall in the trap each time. Not this time, not this time. I will not be hostage of their politic because the 2 main parties and their affiliates the Media play the extreme-right to gather the sheep and frighten them to get the vote.

[Fragony]

Got anything more for me, that sounds interesting

[Andres]

It would be a huge mistake to think that Golden Dawn is Greece's biggest problem.

This year, universities don't have enough funding to keep their doors open.

That means that next year, there will be no engineers, teachers, lawyers, scientists, doctors etc. graduating.

This also implies, that you have a big young and intelligent group of people who are very angry (minus the rich kids who will go study abroad).

For every Golden Dawn you oppress, there will be a Silver, Platinum and Diamond Dawn rising, each with different ideologies, but all of them representing desperate people.

Add to that the fact that Greece has bought a lot of war material, instigated by France and Germany, btw and the fact that Greece has already known military dictatorship and that there are undoubtedly still left overs from that in positions of power.

If the troika continues its' madness, we may very well see civil war in Greece. Unless they get the idea to use their newly acquired and modern weapons against Turkey or, why not, Europe.

The hysteria around Golden Dawn is smoke and mirrors to distract attention for the underlying problems the country is facing.

This will not end well and I think we may very well see war on our continent once again.

[Husar]

It's about time, before we became pussies we had a lot more wars in sixty years. At least Vuk will be proud of us.

What should the Troika do anyway? I can see how what they do now is seen as madness but which alternative is actually better? Greece seems like a black hole for money so throwing more at it does not look like a solution to me.

[Montmorency]

Nationalize Greece - by force of arms, if necessary. :wink:

[Andres]

It's about time, before we became pussies we had a lot more wars in sixty years. At least Vuk will be proud of us.

What should the Troika do anyway? I can see how what they do now is seen as madness but which alternative is actually better? Greece seems like a black hole for money so throwing more at it does not look like a solution to me.


I once read that 1 out of 4 commerical ships carries the Greek flag.

The shipping companies have enormeous tax benefits.

But blaming civil servants, immigrants, unemployed and the disabled is easier.

As always, instead of contributing their fair share, the elite prefers war. Makes you wonder what's so elite about the elite.

[Husar]

I thought the Troika just tells Greece to reduce spending and/or increase income in order to achieve a somewhat balanced budget.

I'm not sure whether they can force Greece to tax the shipping companies. And let's not forget that the rich shipping people will leave Greece for the next country to offer them cheap conditions and slave labor if they actually have to pay taxes. There's always some country that loves to sell out to them for short term profit. And for the Greeks this means that even the little taxes they do get fall away while unemployment rises, at least in the short and mid-term.

It's almost as though losing your credit rating while you are financially troubled turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy where you are doomed to fail.