Are US-Americans dumb? [Archive]

The Lurker Below

10-09-2013, 15:21

Seamus Fermanagh

10-09-2013, 15:28

I've taught for years at the college level and sold insurance in peoples homes.

All in all, I have met very few people who I thought were unintelligent. I suspect our melting pot of mutts is pretty smart overall, certainly no worse than human average.

However, the level of self chosen ignorance is staggering.

Fragony

10-09-2013, 15:30

Nah. Merkel couldn't even point out where Berlin is on a map.

HoreTore

10-09-2013, 15:37

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/10/08/literacy-international-workers-education-math-americans/2935909/

You've probably already heard about how 1 in 5 Americans can't find the U.S.A. on a map.

why? I teach Americans favorite subject to hate, so I know, but I'd still like to check my answer with others'.

This is basically the same as the situation in every other country except Finland.

I believe the cause is mostly due to media and politician's inability to properly read statistics.

Kadagar_AV

10-09-2013, 15:38

Fragony

10-09-2013, 15:42

I think USAnians, by and large, trust others to do the thinking for them.

This, coupled with an absolutely rampant media climate and churches that aren't exactly bastions of enlightenment, of course have a sad impact on the society at large.

Rampant media climate, Sweden was where you are from right. If you look at the list of top 50 of universities Sweden isn't even in it.

HoreTore

10-09-2013, 15:50

Rampant media climate, Sweden was where you are from right. If you look at the list of top 50 of universities Sweden isn't even in it.

Frags is wrong as he always is, Karolinska Institutet is number 42 (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking).

EDIT: And well above the top dutch uni, Leiden, which is at #64 by the way.

Not that any of this is relevant anyway, since it's a centralize/decentralize-thing.

Andres

10-09-2013, 15:55

Frags is wrong as he always is, Karolinska Institutet is number 42 (http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking).

EDIT: And well above the top dutch uni, Leiden, which is at #64 by the way.

Not that any of this is relevant anyway, since it's a centralize/decentralize-thing.

I'm not sure if having one or several of your elite institutions in such a ranking is a good indication about the general education level of the population :balloon2:

Seamus Fermanagh

10-09-2013, 16:39

I think USAnians, by and large, trust others to do the thinking for them.

This, coupled with an absolutely rampant media climate and churches that aren't exactly bastions of enlightenment, of course have a sad impact on the society at large.

Actually, they don't trust others to do their thinking for them. Sadly, that doesn't always translate to attempting to do their own. In the gap lies ignorance and poor decision making -- of which the USA has no shortage whatsoever.

I concur with you as to the rampant media climate, but disagree with churches/enlightenment. There are so many faith groups in the USA that actively seek enlightenment as a means of coming closer to the deity and/or as a means of spiritual growth. The fundamentalists and literalists get a lot of press, but they are nowhere near a majority of the churched in this country and it is only those subsets that might be viewed as anti-enlightenment.

Unless you are defining anything other than Popperian rationalism as being unenlightened.

Andres

10-09-2013, 16:45

We Europeans like our stereotypes and cliches.

An American mentioning Popper should be locked up in a cage and put in a museum or a zoo, as a curiosity. You cannot possibly be a normal American.

Montmorency

10-09-2013, 16:46

Hyperspecialization?

E.g. Sherlock Holmes not knowing of the heliocentric model.

For this to be the case, it need not imply that most members of the hyperspecialized masses have very deep knowledge in any one conceivable area.

Zoom out far enough and I'm sure that a spectrogram of one individual's knowledge would look identical to everyone else's.

Shock or ridicule: the root of it is the perception that another or many others are ignorant of what seems to the one a very fundamental or trivial (i.e. "obvious") fact or concept, e.g. that every citizen of a given country should have familiarity with the geographies of at least their country at large.

Compulsory education: its basic purpose is to inculcate some facts and concepts that are deemed by society to be fundamental or trivial, along with tools of critical thinking and continual acquisition/absorption of new information. The problem is, there are just way too many fundamental or trivial things to learn: long-term retention is unreliable, cognition under-equipped, and life short and busy. And this is even sidestepping the problem of evaluation.

It is a truism to say that if one is reminded or made newly aware of something that they then consider or have considered to be fundamental or trivial, they will almost never find fault with others' ignorance of the same.

TLDR: All these reports on selected ignorances are pretty much just there to amuse you and to boost your self-satisfaction. What sort of vegan is a vegan who delights in the flavor of "vegetarian meat"?

TinCow

10-09-2013, 18:11

Most Americans are not dumb. The problem is that most dumb Americans are loud.

Seamus Fermanagh

10-09-2013, 18:21

Most Americans are not dumb. The problem is that most dumb Americans are loud.

I said not dumb but ignorant.

Sadly, we are both correct.

HoreTore

10-09-2013, 18:25

I'm not sure if having one or several of your elite institutions in such a ranking is a good indication about the general education level of the population :balloon2:

It's not, I just felt like pointing out that Frags is dead wrong once again ~;)

Fisherking

10-09-2013, 18:41

Americans are ignorant, not dumb. You can fix ignorant.

Oh yeah?

You should try it some time. Anything that smacks of book learning or high culture is anathema to about 85% of the population and another 10% pretend that they know less than they do.

I would agree that it is ignorance and not stupidity but it is self imposed and they have strong opinions on it too.

Just think of RVG…

Fragony

10-09-2013, 18:46

RVG is Syrian..

Fisherking

10-09-2013, 19:03

I hate to tell you, but there is a great deal of what you speak of in the large suburban areas of the Pacific Northwest too, and the rest of the country to boot.

I don’t think you would have to go to far to find it in Eugene too.

The Lurker Below

10-09-2013, 19:15

So I'm thanking every response that apportions some measure of fault to ignorance. Ignorance in and of itself is not evil, it's just a matter of fact. I will forever be ignorant in the field of rocket science, and I'll never be ashamed of it. Our problem lies in the cause of the ignorance. I would argue that the cause is apathy. Most of us simply don't care. I have seen two reasons for the apathy.

first - I got mine and am set, don't care if you have yours or not, don't need to know.
second - the man is holding me down and I have no chance, so why should I care.

Most Americans are apathetic. Until we get hungry again we will have no reason not to be. You hungry people in the rest of the world can go ahead and fight over who will host the next success story (current American Dream).

edit - not capitalizing us in the title was purposeful. I suppose my play on us ignorance wasn't that amusing though. So no matter.

The Lurker Below

10-09-2013, 19:39

Well f me if somehow I managed to make Americans apathy an ideological issue. I sure didn't mean for that to happen.

It is pointless to discuss the causes for the poor Americans. We will not agree. Thread after thread after thread breaks down into this argument and nothing is proven from that, no minds are changed. Can't we just let it go at that?

Montmorency

10-09-2013, 19:46

Americans are complacent.

Kadagar_AV

10-09-2013, 21:00

Montmorency

10-09-2013, 21:05

I'm sure many USAnians have empirical evidence of other situations, but cultural views are there for a reason.

Er, you can't just make up "cultural views" on the spot...

Kadagar_AV

10-09-2013, 21:06

so just did.

But I have empirical evidence to support it!

Lemur

10-09-2013, 21:10

I have empirical evidence
FWIW, "empirical" is not a synonym for "anecdotal," which is clearly what you meant to say.

Kadagar_AV

10-09-2013, 21:15

FWIW, "empirical" is not a synonym for "anecdotal," which is clearly what you meant to say.

Empirical evidence (also empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge, or the a posteriori) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation

No?

FWIW I honestly thought I used it right? If you want to you can educate me in PM and delete these last, not to derail :)

TinCow

10-09-2013, 21:22

Europeans coming to the USA are generally seen as intelligent and sophisticated.

That depends entirely on where they go. Anyone coming to NYC is generally seen as an idiot yokel by the locals, regardless of their nation of origin.

Kadagar_AV

10-09-2013, 21:23

That depends entirely on where they go. Anyone coming to NYC is generally seen as an idiot yokel by the locals, regardless of their nation of origin.

Including, of course, USA :laugh4:

Even a broken watch is right two times a day :creep:

Strike For The South

10-09-2013, 21:29

Most Americans are not dumb. The problem is that most dumb Americans are loud.

You rang?

Fisherking

10-09-2013, 21:47

Most Americans don't care what Europeans think. Delusions of superiority won't last too long after we default and drag your weak dependant economies with us. :shrug:

Jingo-bells, jingo-bells, jingoism all the way…

Montmorency

10-09-2013, 21:50

How dare you not accept that Europeans are your intellectual superiors?

You must be a jingoist! You must think that America is superior to everyone else!

:freak:

TinCow

10-09-2013, 21:58

Kadagar_AV

10-09-2013, 22:09

I find it odd that you Euromutts are talking about the superiority of the Euros as a whole. You're not all German; quite a lot of you are Greek, Spanish, Italian, and Belgian. Your collectivism is dragging you down, in much the same way that Alabama drags down NYC.

Yeah... Truth be told, it's only the Germanic parts of Europe that is holding up.

But since the last debacle, we are happy to let the rest of Europe trail along to scorn the others, even if it's a monetary waste.

Seamus Fermanagh

10-09-2013, 23:24

Its no secret Kadagar brings out the jingo in me. It's what he does. :yes:

Bully!

rickinator9

10-09-2013, 23:53

Europeans are still superior. We didn't treacherously leave our countries for american gold.

Sarmatian

10-10-2013, 00:01

Europeans are still superior. We didn't treacherously leave our countries for american gold.

Exactly. Instead we tried to make the whole world our country.

The idea had some merit, but the execution was flawed. It's western Europeans fault, actually.

Sp4

10-10-2013, 00:02

This thread is kind of pointless. You 'produce' similar results for any other group of people or country in the world by just asking the right people. Or the wrong ones, whichever way you look at it.

Kadagar_AV

10-10-2013, 00:49

Europeans are still superior. We didn't treacherously leave our countries for american gold.

The way I see it, we sent all the prudes away on boats.

Papewaio

10-10-2013, 02:41

The way I see it, we sent all the prudes away on boats.

Yes, because the beaches of Brazil are so prudish.

Xiahou

10-10-2013, 03:26

Our public education system is most certainly a disgrace. :yes:

Pannonian

10-10-2013, 10:20

I know, I'm being pithy. If we had clear geographical delineations this would have erupted into war decades ago.

Clear geographical delineations do exist. Intelligence decreases dramatically once one goes north of Watford, while south of Dover intelligence levels hold up, but the natives turn it to devious and reprehensible ends, like speaking in strange tongues.

Fragony

10-10-2013, 10:31

It's not, I just felt like pointing out that Frags is dead wrong once again ~;)

Pfffft, ok I was wrong about one viking uni, we got 4 in the world rankings

Husar

10-10-2013, 13:14

Most Americans don't care what Europeans think. Delusions of superiority won't last too long after we default and drag your weak dependant economies with us. :shrug:

But that is the whole point.
Our idiots make us dependent on you and we want their house of cards to crumble hoping that we may restart without so much dependence.

Going by the banking crisis there is no reason to be overly optimistic but then again I'm just the Euo version of a tea party lunatic. ~D

Tuuvi

10-11-2013, 05:53

Let's face some VERY simple facts here...

USAnians coming to Europe are generally seen as stupid and unsophisticated.
Europeans coming to the USA are generally seen as intelligent and sophisticated.

We can play the "blame shift" game all day long, but this kind of IS how it IS, no?

I'm sure many USAnians have empirical evidence of other situations, but cultural views are there for a reason.

I live close to a national park and lots of Europeans come into my work during the summer time. They like to wear fannypacks and socks with sandals. I've never considered socks with sandals to be intelligent and sophisticated, except for when I was 10 and I got bullied a lot.

Sarmatian

10-11-2013, 15:14

Fashion is whatever Europeans decide it is.

Fisherking

10-11-2013, 16:31

I live close to a national park and lots of Europeans come into my work during the summer time. They like to wear fannypacks and socks with sandals. I've never considered socks with sandals to be intelligent and sophisticated, except for when I was 10 and I got bullied a lot.

Germans! Don't ask why...

Sarmatian

10-11-2013, 18:05

Germans! Don't ask why...

Because they go so well with lederhosen...

Sarmatian

10-11-2013, 18:06

Germans! Don't ask why...

Because they go so well with lederhosen...

Kralizec

10-15-2013, 19:13

To clarify, I don't consider the limey British to be European. They're just funny little island people who produce fantastic television. They also speak the right language. :creep:

I know exactly what you mean. The UK is a nice enough place but I would never consider moving there. I don't think I'd be able to adjust to such an alien environment, with cultural patterns and mores that are, for me, impossible to relate to.

OTOH I'd be able to move to and integrate in European countries like Latvia and Bulgaria without effort, if I had any reason to want that.

Fragony

10-15-2013, 22:44

I know exactly what you mean. The UK is a nice enough place but I would never consider moving there. I don't think I'd be able to adjust to such an alien environment, with cultural patterns and mores that are, for me, impossible to relate to.

OTOH I'd be able to move to and integrate in European countries like Latvia and Bulgaria without effort, if I had any reason to want that.

Maybe you can't relate because it's mostly white trash. The UK sucks the life right out of you when you are just being there, it's an incredibly depressing place. Everything is ugly, the buildings are ugly, the people are ugly, the whole place has the charm of a pregnant spider I hate being there.

Kralizec

10-15-2013, 23:09

Maybe you can't relate because it's mostly white trash.

That's really insenstive of you, Frag.

In the past I would have been able to laugh about such things (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxifmyYcOws), but since then I've realised that British culture is simply different from Europe and that it should be recognised and respected for it, not mocked.

You and I would be able to assimilate without much trouble into other European countries because there's a shared culture. Granted, there will probably be a language barrier, but that accounts for most of the trouble. We know how to greet others by waving our hand, we know that covering your genitals is expected in public and we know that a nod means "yes" and that shaking your head means "no". Except in Bulgaria, which is weird.

None of that applies to Britain - any difference between the Dutch and other European countries pales in comparison to the differences with Britain. Why? Because they're not European. Because God wanted it to, because of their unique origin and because of 40 kilometres of water sepearating them from actual, real European nations.

Fragony

10-15-2013, 23:36

That's really insenstive of you, Frag.

In the past I would have been able to laugh about such things (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxifmyYcOws), but since then I've realised that British culture is simply different from Europe and that it should be recognised and respected for it, not mocked.

You and I would be able to assimilate without much trouble into other European countries because there's a shared culture. Granted, there will probably be a language barrier, but that accounts for most of the trouble. We know how to greet others by waving our hand, we know that covering your genitals is expected in public and we know that a nod means "yes" and that shaking your head means "no". Except in Bulgaria, which is weird.

None of that applies to Britain - any difference between the Dutch and other European countries pales in comparison to the differences with Britain. Why? Because they're not European. Because God wanted it to, because of their unique origin and because of 40 kilometres of water sepearating them from actual, real European nations.

I am a really sensitive person so I can feel the sadness that lingers over the place. There is something deeply wrong there I can't really explain it, but I know something isn't quite right there. Feel free to say that I am not quite right.

Seamus Fermanagh

10-16-2013, 04:34

This royal throne of kings, this sceptred isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise,
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war,
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands,--
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England.

--William Shakespeare, "King Richard II", Act 2 scene 1