California transgender students now able to pick which bathroom they want.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Story can be found here:
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/08/13/california-governor-signs-landmark-bill-for-transgender-students (http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/08/13/california-governor-signs-landmark-bill-for-transgender-students)

They are also given the same freedom to pick which gendered sports program they identify with. I can see why many people would be upset with this, but when I first read this oddly enough the first thing that popped in my head was "Will the women's bathroom need to install urinals now?".

Is this needed equality or just California going too far?

[Kamakazi]

I honestly think equality is a severe quandary of a term. A lot of people want the equality but expect different treatment....

[a completely inoffensive name]

Is it okay to not give a single crap?
Sure, not everything has be important to you. I generally don't care about foreign affairs.



I feel the same way about gay marriage. Just do not care at all. Happy people are being treated better, but overall I see it as liberals wasting their energy on the easy fights.
Interesting, you think that having underage men and women share the same bathrooms is an easy fight to have? I personally am surprised it even happened given how riled parents are when it comes to anything school related.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Eh, I'm not a supporter of this bill from the article you linked.

As I understand it, a student simply needs to claim they are transgender in order to use facilities made for the other gender and compete on sports teams comprised of the other gender. Does this mean some guy just needs to say he was born a male but is really a female, and then can play on female sports teams, without any further effort to actually make the transition (ie surgery, hormone treatments, etc.)?

That seems to open up all sorts of issues regarding abuse of this law.

CR

[Fragony]

I don't get why people would have a problem with the bathroom. Sport is a different matter, it's still a men's body so it's a bit unfair for females, men are just stronger in general. But then again, they get female hormones. What does it do to testosteron buildup, never thought about that

[Husar]

They should just make all bathrooms mixed gender + animals, would be cheaper, too.

And less dog poop on sidewalks.

[Ronin]

reading the news piece I couldn´t figure out at what age this would take place.
the other day I saw a news item about a 6 year old going to court over something like this, I would say that to me it seems like giving attention to this sort of thing before the kid even goes through puberty is ridiculous.

other than that....don´t really care.

[Gregoshi]

They should just make all bathrooms mixed gender + animals, would be cheaper, too.
No. I don't want to wait in long bathroom lines at sport/entertainment events. ~;)

[Beskar]

In the United Kingdom, you have to live your life as you would do a woman for one year before you have any surgery. (Same for ftm)

During this time, if you were originally male, you would have to use the female facilities and other gender specific things so you know that this life is for you and if you can put up with the stigma and discrimination associated with being transgender. After the year and you still are positive this is the life for you, you can go ahead and have surgery, hormone treatments and other such things.

With this system in usage..

Should those born male undergoing gender-reassignment be blocked from using the Womens' bathroom? No, and the comment about urinals was just silly nonsense.

As for Sports, I think those should be Unisex anyway in a large degree, only objections should be a professional level.

It is not equality gone too far.

[Fragony]

Just musing, it isn't anything I know something about. What they do know so far in neuroligy is that female brains are different from a male's brain, physically. Has there ever been any research on the wires of someone who feels that he/she was born in the wrong sex-category, it would be interesting.

[Beskar]

Has there ever been any research on the wires of someone who feels that he/she was born in the wrong sex-category, it would be interesting.

Probably a lot of it, unfortunately, I don't have access to the journals I used to use.

Here is a picture explaining about Gender in a simple format:

https://i.imgur.com/laTc782.png

[HoreTore]

Well, PE-teachers have had a tendency to "forget" stuff in the changing rooms of the opposite gender since forever, so....

Honestly, this is just putting teachers and students on an equal footing.

[Husar]

Probably a lot of it, unfortunately, I don't have access to the journals I used to use.

Here is a picture explaining about Gender in a simple format:

*Picture*

I don't quite get it, which of the figures do they want on bathrooms now and how many different bathrooms are there going to be?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Probably a lot of it, unfortunately, I don't have access to the journals I used to use.

Here is a picture explaining about Gender in a simple format:

https://i.imgur.com/laTc782.png


Nice graphic - really low on practical application.

First point: Gender specific bathing was instigated primarily to reduce instance of sexual assault - if you live in a nice Western European country, ask someone who live in Eastern Europe or the Med about it.

Second Point: Non-gendered athletics means the death of competitive female athletes - at every level men out-perform women, and unisex athletics will just mean that girls will be dominated by boys - especially in the early-teenage years where we look for the next Olympians.

Third point: Like it or not, we are not a wholly self-defining species. You may feel that you were born in the wrong body, but the vast majority of these people were born in to the "wrong" body that is fully functional and healthy - and it's not readily apparent who is "trans" and who is not.

Fourth point: What does "Shis" stand for? Or is it just to make the trans people feel more "normal" because that's the idea, isn't it? To make trans people feel more normal - even though most people can no more relate to their experience of their bodies than they can to everyone else.

Summation: Life sucks - being a trans teenager is somewhat harder than being a normal teeneager - but it's not like anyone is happy with their body growing up.

[HoreTore]

Second Point: Non-gendered athletics means the death of competitive female athletes - at every level men out-perform women, and unisex athletics will just mean that girls will be dominated by boys - especially in the early-teenage years where we look for the next Olympians.

This is patently false.

Girls improve by training with boys, it's not the other way around.

You become the best by spending your teenage years constantly being beaten. Those who go through their teenage years winning all the time end up as janitors. As proof, I submit Xavi and Iniesta, who rarely won matches in their youth.

I can also throw in Gareth Bale, who had to submit to a set of special rules to make it much harder for him to play, like only using the wrong foot.

[Montmorency]

Gender specific bathing was instigated primarily to reduce instance of sexual assault

That's a strange point to throw out.

If someone wants to commit sexual assault, arbitrary gender-specific bathrooms aren't going to stop them; they'll just waltz right on in to the other gender's bathroom.

Also, having a uni-sex bathroom increases the number of people on average who will be in a bathroom at any given moment, which means a higher chance of someone being on hand to help or call for help in case of a crime being committed.


Summation: Life sucks - being a trans teenager is somewhat harder than being a normal teeneager - but it's not like anyone is happy with their body growing up.

I guess the point is to be more accommodating of the "abnormal" so as to lessen the strain of their existence...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is patently false.

Girls improve by training with boys, it's not the other way around.

You become the best by spending your teenage years constantly being beaten. Those who go through their teenage years winning all the time end up as janitors. As proof, I submit Xavi and Iniesta, who rarely won matches in their youth.

I can also throw in Gareth Bale, who had to submit to a set of special rules to make it much harder for him to play, like only using the wrong foot.

It is not patently false - the majority of girls will be completely crushed as teenagers facing off against boys. I've seen what happens when guys let loose against girls in sports like rugby - the girls are like ragdolls flying across the pitch - the lack the basic mass to compete. Oh sure, there are exception, but only a very few. Unisex sports would be dominated by men - get over it.


That's a strange point to throw out.

If someone wants to commit sexual assault, arbitrary gender-specific bathrooms aren't going to stop them; they'll just waltz right on in to the other gender's bathroom.

Also, having a uni-sex bathroom increases the number of people on average who will be in a bathroom at any given moment, which means a higher chance of someone being on hand to help or call for help in case of a crime being committed.

The difference being, everybody know a boy shouldn't be in the girls room - and vice versa.

[Montmorency]

The difference being, everybody know a boy shouldn't be in the girls room - and vice versa.

"Hey, you're not supposed to be here."

"Please leave."

"Leave at once or I'll call the guards."

"You're not supposed to touch me there."

"Don't touch me."

"I'm warning you."

"That's it! Guards! Gua-rmphbthmths"

Now, I understand that life can seem like a videogame at times, but come on...

[HoreTore]

It is not patently false - the majority of girls will be completely crushed as teenagers facing off against boys. I've seen what happens when guys let loose against girls in sports like rugby - the girls are like ragdolls flying across the pitch - the lack the basic mass to compete. Oh sure, there are exception, but only a very few. Unisex sports would be dominated by men - get over it.

If there's a girl with potential in a club, she'll start training with the boys(assuming the club has brains). The reason is that in order to progress, you need to train with people of a higher standard than yourself. It's precisely because it will be dominated by boys that the girls prosper. You're not supposed to dominate in your teens, that should be happening when you're 18-20 when you actually start competing.

And come on: you said sports, not sillyness like rugby. That activity is just a substitute for people who are too afraid to get out of the closet, who choose a socially acceptable way of having intimate relations with fellow males.

[Fragony]

I do kickboxing Horrie, do you think it's fair to put a woman in my weightclass against me. Sure, some will kick my butt. But I am stronger and faster, I carry less weight so to say. Someone can hit or kick me on the chest without it really hurting me, it is extremily painfull for a woman though, and could cause serious internal bleedings. My tighs are lighter, so I can kick harder. Women and men are just build diffently, your obsession with equality is just unrealistic. Men are not women.

[Husar]

Women are fat and men have more muzzles.

It's from the Ostrogen and the Westosterone, the Westosterone always wins because capitalism.

[HoreTore]

I do kickboxing Horrie, do you think it's fair to put a woman in my weightclass against me. Sure, some will kick my butt. But I am stronger and faster, I carry less weight so to say. Someone can hit or kick me on the chest without it really hurting me, it is extremily painfull for a woman though, and could cause serious internal bleedings. My tighs are lighter, so I can kick harder. Women and men are just build diffently, your obsession with equality is just unrealistic. Men are not women.

Again, I'm talking about sports and not activites you do to have socially acceptable intimate relations with another man.

Still, a woman who wants to be a good kickboxer will have to train with the boys, yes. You need someone better than you to train with, and that usually means training with the boys.

And this has extremely little to do with "equality", this is about how to improve. Say you have a 10 year old who plays well at his football team. You want him to get better, and so you can choose one of the following three options:

1. Move him down to the 9-year olds so he can really dominate and excel.
2. Stay put and simply be very good at his team-
3. Move him up to the 11-year olds where he will no longer be better than the rest of the players.

Which one do you choose?

[Montmorency]

I like this anecdote (not personal):


(I’m a secretary for a high end security firm that hires bodyguards out to wealthy businessmen and celebrities. Today, we’re doing a hand-to-hand combat refresher course. Two of our new employees are a pair of former bodybuilders/bouncers. They have been quite belligerent after finding out the tiny, 5’1″ girl in front of them is getting paid far more than what they are.) (http://notalwaysworking.com/secure-in-her-ability/31342)

Guy #1: “Man this is bull-s***! Why the f*** would anyone pay that micro-b**** to guard them?”

Guy #2: “I know man; I bet she’s [company owner's] daughter, or some stupid s***, and just sits in an office collecting a paycheck.”

Instructor: “[Guy #1]! So glad you’re willing to volunteer for our first demonstration. [Girl], will you please come up here to assist?”

Girl: “Sure thing, lets just get this over with.”

Instructor: “Okay then, [Guy #1] you’re a big strong guy. Your job is to stop the crazy fan-girl who will be played by [Girl] before she gets to the actor you’re protecting.”

(Guy #1 gets a cocky smile, and simply charges forward to grab the girl. He manages to get one hand on her shoulder when she lashes out, kicking one of his legs out from under him. As he stumbles, she pulls him towards her and flips him over her shoulder and into the mat, slamming him hard enough to kick up dust.)

Instructor: *looking down at Guy #1* “And this is lesson one: it doesn’t matter how big or small your assailant is, never underestimate someone. Oh, and since you and [Guy #2] were wondering why she makes three times what you do, this is why. Celebrities hire guys like you to stand in front of them and look scary; millionaire businessmen hire people like her if they want real security.”

I wish my younger sister were like that. Though she's a 'girlie-girl', I try to launch a good blow into her mid-section from time to time, just to see if it will unlock some hidden talent. Or - hmmm.... :wacko:

[Major Robert Dump]

Man this is seriously going to screw up Glory Hole etiquette. Death to America

[Fragony]

Again, I'm talking about sports and not activites you do to have socially acceptable intimate relations with another man.

Still, a woman who wants to be a good kickboxer will have to train with the boys, yes. You need someone better than you to train with, and that usually means training with the boys.

And this has extremely little to do with "equality", this is about how to improve. Say you have a 10 year old who plays well at his football team. You want him to get better, and so you can choose one of the following three options:

1. Move him down to the 9-year olds so he can really dominate and excel.
2. Stay put and simply be very good at his team-
3. Move him up to the 11-year olds where he will no longer be better than the rest of the players.

Which one do you choose?

Don't mind me sticking to my own example. If I would fight in the same way as I do against a man I could cause serious injury to her, we don't have a womb that can burst after a nasty blow, or ovarys that can get damaged, not to mention the damage that can be done to their breasts. Not that females can't be good at it, the daughter of a friend of mine is really good, but he would never let her fight against a man, you just can't risk the potential damage you could do to her. There are just differences to take into consideration.

Edit, I don't do it anymore by the way, knees are kinda messed up

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Man this is seriously going to screw up Glory Hole etiquette. Death to America

There's an etiquette?

You folks with military experience learn to handle just about everything don't you?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And come on: you said sports, not sillyness like rugby. That activity is just a substitute for people who are too afraid to get out of the closet, who choose a socially acceptable way of having intimate relations with fellow males.

Oh - like Chess?

[Major Robert Dump]

There's an etiquette?

You folks with military experience learn to handle just about everything don't you?

Well the etiquette is more a regional thing than a military thing. For example, etiquette at a truck stop in Kentucky will vary significantly from etiquette in a school bathroom in California. One of the items on my bucket list is to use a glory hole in all 50 states, thankfully I got California years ago.

[Noncommunist]

Don't mind me sticking to my own example. If I would fight in the same way as I do against a man I could cause serious injury to her, we don't have a womb that can burst after a nasty blow, or ovarys that can get damaged, not to mention the damage that can be done to their breasts. Not that females can't be good at it, the daughter of a friend of mine is really good, but he would never let her fight against a man, you just can't risk the potential damage you could do to her. There are just differences to take into consideration.

Edit, I don't do it anymore by the way, knees are kinda messed up

There are some male spots that if hit are extremely painful too and could probably be permanently damaged if hit too hard.

[Fragony]

There are some male spots that if hit are extremely painful too and could probably be permanently damaged if hit too hard.

Of course but you aren't allowed to hit there, it's a sport, not a fight. But hits on the belly or on the breast are allowed, so putting a woman against a man is bad idea, women are just more fragile. Also not for the man because unless he's an idiot he won't hit her there.

[Major Robert Dump]

The problem with women is when they start losing in a match they will start crying. This is proven fact, I did internet research.

Back on OT, does this mean they will have to put tampon dispensers in the male bathrooms for transitioning females?

[Myth]

Any high-school or college student brave enough to admit to being transgender and able to bear the scrutiny in a USA school facility deserves to use the opposite bathroom. And plus, it's not like you can see others' private parts in a bathroom. You get access to a stall with a door and the sink. Big deal.

I can see some asshats using this law in some fancy, $500 for a dinner type restaurants though. I'd find it hilarious.

"John, a 190 lbs. man in a dress came in the bathroom behind me. I was so scared! I asked for the manager but they said he was allowed inside because he was trans genetal or something! I'm suing them first thing tomorrow!"

Then the 190 lbs. man can suie the woman for not respecting his choice to be a disney princess or something. Ah, USA...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Any high-school or college student brave enough to admit to being transgender and able to bear the scrutiny in a USA school facility deserves to use the opposite bathroom. And plus, it's not like you can see others' private parts in a bathroom. You get access to a stall with a door and the sink. Big deal.

I can see some asshats using this law in some fancy, $500 for a dinner type restaurants though. I'd find it hilarious.

"John, a 190 lbs. man in a dress came in the bathroom behind me. I was so scared! I asked for the manager but they said he was allowed inside because he was trans genetal or something! I'm suing them first thing tomorrow!"

Then the 190 lbs. man can suie the woman for not respecting his choice to be a disney princess or something. Ah, USA...

Myth has the right of it, I think. The only ones to truly profit from this will be the attorneys.

[HoreTore]

Myth has the right of it, I think. The only ones to truly profit from this will be the attorneys.

This is why you need to abondon this small state-nonsense of yours, cripple the civil law system and create government agencies to handle such grievances. No reward to the accuser, a slap on the wrist for the accused and a processing time of a zillion years = the perfect system to handle would-be abusers.

[Major Robert Dump]

This is why you need to abondon this small state-nonsense of yours, cripple the civil law system and create government agencies to handle such grievances. No reward to the accuser, a slap on the wrist for the accused and a processing time of a zillion years = the perfect system to handle would-be abusers.

But your idea takes the fun out of lawsuits

[HoreTore]

But your idea takes the fun out of lawsuits

Trust me - complaining about government inefficiency is way more fun.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This seems pertinent: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25198063

We've know for a while that the male and female brains work differently - this is the first piece positing such extensive differences I have read, however.

The Logical solution seems to be to scan the brain of someone who is transgender - at which point you can determine if the disconnect they feel is biological or psychological - and treat accordingly.

[Beskar]

The Logical solution seems to be to scan the brain of someone who is transgender - at which point you can determine if the disconnect they feel is biological or psychological - and treat accordingly.

How do you 'treat' it, similar to how they used to treat homosexuality back in the 1960's, or simply accepting them and allowing them to sex change?

[Kadagar_AV]

This seems pertinent: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25198063

We've know for a while that the male and female brains work differently - this is the first piece positing such extensive differences I have read, however.

The Logical solution seems to be to scan the brain of someone who is transgender - at which point you can determine if the disconnect they feel is biological or psychological - and treat accordingly.

I seem to have read the exact same thing surely more than 10 years ago... I thought it was common knowledge already then?

Womens brains interact more with itself, mens brains make them interact more with themselves.

[Kadagar_AV]

How do you 'treat' it, similar to how they used to treat homosexuality back in the 1960's, or simply accepting them and allowing them to sex change?

I had the same view, up until I talked with a doctor friend of mine. He asked me if I would be as happy to help anorexic's have fat removal or hunger-killing surgery?

Basically, as he explained it, people who have undergone sex change still profoundly often commit suicide, or keep having depressions and other problems AFTER the surgery.

In fact, again as he explained it, there has been no study showing that allowing people to gender change leads to a better or more fulfilling life for them.

I only have an academical interest in the issue, I find it interesting though. And after the talk with that doc, I started second guessing my previous take on it: That doctors should pull out the knives when asked to.

Allowing the sex change mustn't necessarily be the treatment they need.

Oh, and it's wrong to mix homosexuality and transgender-ism... Homosexuals have quite clearly benefited from being able to live the way they want. The same can't be said of transgenders.

[Beskar]

Oh, and it's wrong to mix homosexuality and transgender-ism... Homosexuals have quite clearly benefited from being able to live the way they want. The same can't be said of transgenders.

Though in the same light, it is wrong to mix anorexia and transgender. Anorexia is dangerous illness that results in death through starvation. It isn't merely to be slim/thin, such as going on the weight watchers diet which everyone sees as a healthy approach to food. If it was merely about healthly eating and not being overweigh, no one would have any issues with it.

There are also clear differences, in order to change gender, you have to live as the opposite sex for at least one year before any treatment or surgery. It is not a choice of walking into a clinic and having a boob job and penis chopped off. You have to live that way whilst going through councillors and psychologists to make a life changing decision which is in everyone best interest. There is also a waiting list of approx 2 years before you even get seen about starting the process, you cannot do it on a whim.

So I disagree with your statements, Kadagar, the doctor was rather ignorant of the issue. It has more in common with homosexuality due to lifestyle choices and the lack of social acceptance than a life-threatening illness.

[Fragony]

The academic way would be questioning if it is really a male/female who was born in the wrong body, or a mental condition. Cue, a lot of gay people come from families with a lot of men, are they really gay? I wouldn't know and I don't care anyway, but it's pretty much a given statistically. Men and women have different brainfunctions, I kinda got what I asked for earlier http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25198063

Man and women have different brains, looking at that should ellevate the discussion beyond mere tolerance. If a transgender has a brain that just works different than it should, alas. But it could also simply be a mental condition like annorexia.

[Montmorency]

Basically, as he explained it, people who have undergone sex change still profoundly often commit suicide, or keep having depressions and other problems AFTER the surgery.

In fact, again as he explained it, there has been no study showing that allowing people to gender change leads to a better or more fulfilling life for them.

Perhaps it has something to do with the widespread discrimination against them?

It's easy to hide your feelings in your initial state, but once you go through the transition you become a glaring target. Oh well, let the pioneers take the brunt of it and once the transhumanism wave hits no one will really care.

[Kadagar_AV]

Though in the same light, it is wrong to mix anorexia and transgender. Anorexia is dangerous illness that results in death through starvation. It isn't merely to be slim/thin, such as going on the weight watchers diet which everyone sees as a healthy approach to food. If it was merely about healthly eating and not being overweigh, no one would have any issues with it.

There are also clear differences, in order to change gender, you have to live as the opposite sex for at least one year before any treatment or surgery. It is not a choice of walking into a clinic and having a boob job and penis chopped off. You have to live that way whilst going through councillors and psychologists to make a life changing decision which is in everyone best interest. There is also a waiting list of approx 2 years before you even get seen about starting the process, you cannot do it on a whim.

So I disagree with your statements, Kadagar, the doctor was rather ignorant of the issue. It has more in common with homosexuality due to lifestyle choices and the lack of social acceptance than a life-threatening illness.

Maybe I should have been more clear.

Yes anorexia quite possibly make you dead, and transgenderism (sp?) make you cut of your bald best friend, or equally yucky things.

What I meant was, transgenderism might be a mental illness just like anorexia, whereas homosexuality is more of a... Bug? I guess that would be a fair way to explain it?

Homosexuality can't be treated, whereas transgenderism quite possibly can, at least one can get to grips with the underlying depression and anxiety.

What if some/most/all transgenders are just deeply disturbed and left out people. I am rather confident counseling and medicine could and would do more good then, than to bring out the knives.

As a sidenote; I believe that there are more than one type of transgender. Some might benefit from surgery, maybe? We just have to get better at telling one from the other before we force doctors to do permanent damage by mutilation, dontcha know :book2:

[Beskar]

Yes anorexia quite possibly make you dead, and transgenderism (sp?) make you cut of your bald best friend, or equally yucky things.

Yucky is subjective. Also, they don't all cut off the 'bald bestfriend' either. See: shemales, traps, others.


What I meant was, transgenderism might be a mental illness just like anorexia, whereas homosexuality is more of a... Bug? I guess that would be a fair way to explain it?

It is mostly a social issue in my opinion, to be honest. There are 'various degrees' which people are willing to take or partake, but it comes to how society forces people to behave which is the biggest factor in relation to transgender. A feminine male might be forced to be a 'man' whilst they are comfortable being pretty or in a dress. If you think about it, where is said in nature that men must not wear a dress but a woman can? Why is it wrong that a male might want to have long hair, wear pink and wear loose clothing or a dress? The ancient greeks had a special interest, so does Southeast Asia have quite a number.

Then again, people in ancient times had no issues with homosexuality either. What is the issue is enforcing people to live by a certain way or standard. You might argue about procreation but that is just silly, you can say we shouldn't masturbate by the same argument as you cannot procreate that way either. It is an activity people enjoy, and as long as it is between consenting adults, we should turn a blind eye to it and leave our noses out of their business.


Homosexuality can't be treated, whereas transgenderism quite possibly can, at least one can get to grips with the underlying depression and anxiety.

In order to undergo a sexchange, you have to be attended by mental health professions and be signed off as mentally well to a acceptable standard. If you have crippling depression or anxiety, you are treated first to more manageable levels before a conscious decision can be made. Plus the length of the process and the hurdles in place really does prevent a lot of people going through with it, opting to remain without any alterations to their body.


What if some/most/all transgenders are just deeply disturbed and left out people. I am rather confident counseling and medicine could and would do more good then, than to bring out the knives.

You seem to be ignoring my comments when you make these statements as "going through a team of professions for over 3 years before a knife will even touch you" pretty mean says that people are counselled long before it even comes to the knives. So is a misnomer to suggest people simply go straight under the blade.


As a sidenote; I believe that there are more than one type of transgender. Some might benefit from surgery, maybe? We just have to get better at telling one from the other before we force doctors to do permanent damage by mutilation, dontcha know :book2:

Yet this comment is far removed from the reality. As I clearly said, it takes approx 3 years before knives are even discussed and they are seen by specialists in that area. There is no "I fancy being a woman today" and off they pop for a surgery to get a big snip. It is a long process and a critical life decision. Sorry to say, but there are people who do know what they are talking about and no doctors are forced to do anything, the people who do it are specialist surgeons with expertise in sex reassignment and do further training in order to be able to perform the work necessary. I doubt people would go through the lengths and hurdles required unless they have an interest.

[Kadagar_AV]

Tiaexz, your posting style has degraded, what's up mate?

Not only are you horribly centered on your little part of the world, you also come off as way more aggressive than you really need to be. Not only is this a very minor issue for me, it's also one I in no way claim expert knowledge in, heck, I probably don't know much more about this than your average Builder Bob.

I had an USAnian acquaintance. He was in my (then) WOW-guild, and we spent pretty damn many nights up talking. This guy underwent sex-op, we even had this cute little ceremony ingame when he switched gender on his character.

6 months after surgery she killed himself.

I know, I know, one case isn't enough to make broad generalizations.

But from my minor knowledge coming from empirical evidence, people working directly in the field, and articles in scientific / non scientific magazines... Have led me to believe the issue isn't as easy or clear cut as you seem to want to make it.

The help people WANT isn't always the help they NEED. It is, however, a whole lot easier giving people what they want. That's why we need regulations and very VERY much deeper studies in the field.


You might argue about procreation but that is just silly, you can say we shouldn't masturbate by the same argument as you cannot procreate that way either. It is an activity people enjoy, and as long as it is between consenting adults, we should turn a blind eye to it and leave our noses out of their business.

Or... I might not argue that at all.

No wonder you get offensive when you make up my arguments and make them stupid.

You SERIOUSLY think I would debate like a southern USAnian evangelist? Because... that's just SO me, aight?

[Fragony]

'The help people WANT isn't always the help they NEED. It is, however, a whole lot easier giving people what they want. That's why we need regulations and very VERY much deeper studies in the field'

I am with skiboy here. I know a transgender as well, all my countrymen probably heard of her as well as she was in Big Brother. Haven't seen her for a while, but she showed rather radical behaviour. I am perfectly ok with it, she and her friend stayed at my home when I was on a trip, they slept in my bed, so that says something I guess. No problem for me. But I simply can't rule out different issues with a transgender. She certainly has them but I won't go into that.

[Beskar]

Or... I might not argue that at all.
No wonder you get offensive when you make up my arguments and make them stupid.
You SERIOUSLY think I would debate like a southern USAnian evangelist? Because... that's just SO me, aight?
That particular point was addressing a few arguments saying homosexuality is wrong because it lacks procreation in general.

---

I know a lot about the pains and troubles transgender people go through, either through my work or from people I know/friends. I know people who won't go through the surgery because they don't think it would make them happy, being pretty much closet-transgender, sometimes using the internet to hide behind a female persona in order that more feminine side of theirs.

I know a person who grew up with gender identity issues, they enjoyed playing with Barbie (and action men too), in a fancy-dress pack, they put on this yellow princess dress (and power rangers, etc), they used to try wearing their female cousins bridesmaids dress when their parents remarried, a mix of exploration of what it was like and perhaps some innate preference being expressed at a young age. They said how being male is all an act, a front they always had to display, feeling far more natural and relaxed whilst presenting themselves as a woman, never really identifying in the usual male trends such as football and over sexualisation of females. What is kind of sad for them, is that they are also this big broad male which no amount of surgery could ever work for them opposed to if they were a rather short slim and feminine male, so they live out life through a mask unless with very trusted friends like myself who simply accepts them. They also do not suffer from anxiety or any kind of mental illness, they do have some mild depressive moods now and then, but they mostly overcome that due to the anonymity of the internet, where they can simply be who they want, not saying what gender they are to people and most people who come into contact with them automatically assume they are female.

Another person I know suffers with a lot of depression due to their gender identity issues, being at suicide risk and taking regular antidepressants. Being from a poor background, they can only reasonably go through the public health service channels and have been waiting for nearly three years already, with the long waiting queues, the doctor who they were meant to see retiring, so having to re-join at the back of another doctors line then having that clinic close on them, so they had to find a brand new one. Obviously the incidents taking very heavy blows to their wellbeing, especially as the closer they got to having an appointment was bringing very visible improvements to their state of mind. This is something they really want, very open in discussing the matter, and even when they have received multiple abuse about it in real life and online, it is still what they want. They have gone through psychologists, psychiatrists and the entire works of the mental health system, which try their best to patch them up, but they would never be happy until it happens for them.

There is someone I know who is an artist who has undergone treatments and gender reassignment, most of their art makes you wonder if the people in it are females or males as they are very gender ambiguous but feminine in appearance. It is a theme which encompasses a lot of their art and how they explored their own sexuality, sometimes even modelling work to express themselves. They have a lot of admirers and they are very happy with the gender reassignment and only wish they could have had it sooner as they have never been so happy before it happened.

Someone else I know has lived their last five years as a male, using chest binders and cutting their hair short. Being honest, they pull the look off very well, they simply look bit like a nerdy feminine featured male, the sort of smallish guy with glasses who definitely would not make it on the football team. If they had the option, they would undergo surgery to remove their breasts, but their circumstances doesn't really give them that option due to the costs involved.

List goes on, from lots of people I have encountered in all walks of life, from people with rich backgrounds to poor, those where families accepted them to those who were kicked out of the house, those who want to undergo surgery, those who do not want to go to those lengths, one that became a drag-queen rising star, another who hides behind a computer screen. From males and females, to pretty much being able to put names to people with how they feel to the different types featured in the chart I posted earlier.

I have had personal and professional contact with transgender individuals, so perhaps that means I am horribly centred in my world as you put it, but as you say, you don't know as much as Bob the Builder, I feel I do know what I am talking about, understanding the many issues and difficulties that transgender individuals face.

[Fragony]

I don't question your judgement, but something for your consideration, it might be that they just don't fit in and that radically changing their identity is the only way to alleviate that, that they get confused in how to do that. Rich and poor doesn't really matter as being unlucky about yourselve is pretty universal, every enviroment can be a hostile place. I believe you that for some it's the best thing to do, but isn't it just damage-control for deeper issues. I don't know and I am not making any claims, but I am sceptical.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

How do you 'treat' it, similar to how they used to treat homosexuality back in the 1960's, or simply accepting them and allowing them to sex change?

Simple question - if a man believes he is a dog, or Jesus, do we humour him or commit him?

We commit him, for his own sake to stop him hurting himself. In the same vein, you aren't allowed to get a castration just because you think "sex is sinful". What you have with someone who is trans-gender is a profound disconnect between mind and body. How that disconnect is treated should depend on the medical evidence, no the person's preference. This is especially true in the Western World where, increasingly, the taxpayer foots the bill for gender reassignment.

Michel Foucault was not a God, he was a social theorist - a very clever one - but his view of reality and sexuality does not trump all others.

This seems simple, medically, you scan someone's brain - you determine whether they're really a woman trapped in a man's body, or whether they've had a psychotic break. Treatment can then be proscribed accordingly.

Wailing about individual choice will not stand up to Ockham's razor, I'm afraid.

I'm glad you mentioned homosexuals, btw, because you can scan a homosexual's brain and immediately tell the differences to a heterosexual. Homosexual men, I know from experience, are wired different to heterosexual men - it's not just a question of the type of bed partner.

[Montmorency]

Simple question - if a man believes he is a dog, or Jesus

What if he is Jesus?

Can you take the chance that he isn't?

[Kadagar_AV]

What if he is Jesus?

Can you take the chance that he isn't?

Yeah. You can.

The odds would also be horribly in your favour of getting it right. Read up on the experiment where they put 3 Jesus in the same room. Would you?

[Montmorency]

Read up on the experiment where they put 3 Jesus in the same room. Would you?

Well, yeah - why do you think we sinners are still cooling our heels here on Earth? :verycool:

[Kadagar_AV]

Well, yeah - why do you think we sinners are still cooling our heels here on Earth? :verycool:

Because a shitload of people go by a text written by some desert dwelling people millenniums ago?

Let's face it, do your seriously trust the word of a people spending FORTY YEARS TO GET OUT OF LIKE THE SMALLEST DESERT IMAGINABLE!?

What's next, you will cut off parts of your penis?

I am just joking of course, I am sure you already did *cough*GULLIBLE*cough*

Oh... And I meant that that would be a very gullible thing to do in a modern world. You can take it as an insult if you have parts of your penis missing because of religious reasons.

Other people with intact dicks wouldn't.

[Montmorency]

What does circumcision have to do with Jesus-God Jesus?

[Beskar]

This seems simple, medically, you scan someone's brain - you determine whether they're really a woman trapped in a man's body, or whether they've had a psychotic break. Treatment can then be proscribed accordingly.

I mean, waiting over three years to undergo something which is personally humiliating through a process involving numerous interactions with mental health specialists only because you deeply believe it is a solution which may help isn't bad enough. You now have a chance of random people deciding politics based on arbitrary brain scans?

The process may not be for all people but it isn't for others to decide. It is for the individual and it takes some real guts and commitment to even go through with it, so much so, many people don't bother at all.


Wailing about individual choice will not stand up to Ockham's razor, I'm afraid.

I thought I was meant to be the evil angry pinkocommie anti-indvidualist here?

[Kadagar_AV]

I thought I was meant to be the evil angry pinkocommie anti-indvidualist here?

Then you obviously are set by national as well as geographical made up norms.

Not exactly much of a shocking discovery given your trend.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...What's next, you will cut off parts of your penis?....

I don't think that the operation is generally done on one's self.....I would think that that would be the exception.

[drone]

At this point, thread needs a soundtrack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_DVS_303kQ

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yeah. You can.

The odds would also be horribly in your favour of getting it right. Read up on the experiment where they put 3 Jesus in the same room. Would you?

Well, if he is Jesus, the Sky's about to fall in - so you should be worrying less about him and more about stocking up on ammo or condoms, according to preference.


I mean, waiting over three years to undergo something which is personally humiliating through a process involving numerous interactions with mental health specialists only because you deeply believe it is a solution which may help isn't bad enough. You now have a chance of random people deciding politics based on arbitrary brain scans?

The process may not be for all people but it isn't for others to decide. It is for the individual and it takes some real guts and commitment to even go through with it, so much so, many people don't bother at all.

Ultimately - medical procedures should be decided by doctors - patients should not be able to demand mutilation. Lets consider some of the operations.

1. Removal of reproductive organs.

2. Rewiring or urinary tract and pelvic flaw.

3. Cosmetic adjustment to the skull, including breaking the jaw, nose, building up or grinding down the eye sockets...

4. Breast implants - possibly other bag of silicone.

5. Liposuction

6. Followed by lifelong hormone therapy.

Any you haven't ACTUALLY changed gender - you're just had yourself neutered and altered to present a different outward appearance.

None of this is reversible, of course, and you're suggesting the choice should be down to the patient, and that there should be no actual medical exam to demonstrate the appropriate treatment?

Come off it.

This is obviously personal to you,but the fact you apparently know so many transgender people demonstrates how unusual you are. I'm pretty Bohemian and I've only met two openly transgender people.

Mind you, I'm pretty niche myself - how many gay Anglican theologians are you supposed to know?


I thought I was meant to be the evil angry pinkocommie anti-indvidualist here?

No - that's HoreTore - you're the post-structuralist Liberal. By the way, your long post pretty much undermined your whole argument viz gender politics on this board. If the defining feature of someone trans-gender is that they adhere to the opposite gender stereotype then that implies the stereotypes are valid, which undermines your whole thing about men and women basically being the same.

In fact, if you take the belief that men and women ARE fundamentally the same to its logical conclusion you would have to conclude that anyone with a trans-gender identity MUST have suffered a psychotic break and have developed acute psychological gender dismorphia.

They would be mentally ill for clinging to a gender-identity that is discredited.

[The Stranger]

if the skys about to fall in, why worry about condoms. you wont have 9 months left and all the horrible diseases you can get take some time to manifest as well :P

[HoreTore]

None of this is reversible, of course, and you're suggesting the choice should be down to the patient, and that there should be no actual medical exam to demonstrate the appropriate treatment?

Uh, what? Didn't Tiaexz state pretty clearly in the post you quoted that there were three years of medical examination before any surgery was done...?

How did you manage to turn that into "no medical exam"?

[Pannonian]

Mind you, I'm pretty niche myself - how many gay Anglican theologians are you supposed to know?

Not many. The world's full of gays and theologians, but Anglicans are a pretty niche bunch.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Seeing as how this is trending, I want to point out one point of terminology difference that I point out in my classes as well.

"Sex" is the term used by scholars to denote the physical biological sex of the individual.

"Gender" is a sociocultural and/or psychological outlook and is a mental construction. It is even argued that gender is a "performance" enacted through, within, and against sociocultural and biological constraints. Wiki
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_studies)

[Beskar]

Uh, what? Didn't Tiaexz state pretty clearly in the post you quoted that there were three years of medical examination before any surgery was done...?

How did you manage to turn that into "no medical exam"?

I mentioned that in a few posts. It keeps being overlooked for some reason by the respondents.

Technically, you have to see a doctor then get referred to a psychiatrist who then refers you to a specialist clinic. The waiting times for these clinics are roughly 2 years, at this time, the psychiatrist would diagnose you for any symptoms for depression and other illnesses if they are evident, the person might be on anti-depressants already. Once they get to the clinic, the specialist will go through it all, talking, testing and diagnosis. If they agree to go ahead with the treatment,, you have to live the life of the opposite sex for a year, this includes going into the other restrooms. This is so people know about the hardships they will face even after surgery and the discrimination. The person has to be of self-resolve to be able to successfully live this life. So by the time this is done, there is a big meeting about going forward then they start discussing hormone treatments and if you want surgery, that. Typically, you would begin the hormone therapy first before knives are put to you, due to the pretty much irreservable damage which can occur. So throughout the process you are examined by multiple professionals before over the course of three years before a blade even touches you.


Seeing as how this is trending, I want to point out one point of terminology difference that I point out in my classes as well.

"Sex" is the term used by scholars to denote the physical biological sex of the individual.

"Gender" is a sociocultural and/or psychological outlook and is a mental construction. It is even argued that gender is a "performance" enacted through, within, and against sociocultural and biological constraints. Wiki
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_studies)

That is completely correct, sex and gender are different.


...then that implies the stereotypes are valid

It actually implies stereotypes exists, but they are not valid. I am aware of the existence of stereotypes, it is a rudimentary function related to basic survival instincts which are erroneous. Stereotypes should be consistently challenged at every opportunity.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...It actually implies stereotypes exists, but they are not valid. I am aware of the existence of stereotypes, it is a rudimentary function related to basic survival instincts which are erroneous. Stereotypes should be consistently challenged at every opportunity.

A fair point. Stereotypes, at their best, serve as a mental "shorthand" wherein we react to and characterize an entire group of humans according to some set of pre-determined values commonly associated with that group. This saves time, since you can apply communication scripts etc. based on the group rather than having to process each person as an individual -- a time saver cognitively. However, this is ALSO the inherent weakness of stereotyping, since by accepting the labels associated with that stereotype you tend to curtail your ability to process an encounter with another individual as an individual. Since none of our macro label efforts apply perfectly on an individual level, it means that stereotyping as an interaction tool can never approach true effectiveness.

It is a wise personal policy to disregard stereotypes. Sure it is more cognitive effort to treat individuals as individuals, but we ARE individuals and not some monolith.

[Fragony]

You call it discrimination Tiaexz but would you sleep with a transgender, I certainly wouldn't. It's even kinda cruel to assume a sex-change will change anything, a promise of a life they can't have. As skiboy said, what they want isn't necesarily what they need. What they really want can't be provided.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It actually implies stereotypes exists, but they are not valid. I am aware of the existence of stereotypes, it is a rudimentary function related to basic survival instincts which are erroneous. Stereotypes should be consistently challenged at every opportunity.

Then how does wanting to play with barbies make you trans-gender?

I picked up on what you said about the Clinic, and I'm aware of the the process.

As far as I know, though, currently "diagnosis" is psychological - then treatment is surgical.

As far as I'm concerned - that doesn't track. Surgical treatment should not be applied after a psych eval, no matter how exhaustive.

Mutilating someone's sex organs is the same as cutting their leg off - which is generally not something doctors want to do. I do recall one instance where they DID do it, because irrc he was set on committing suicide if they didn't. I'm not convinced that was the right choice.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You call it discrimination Tiaexz but would you sleep with a transgender, I certainly wouldn't. It's even kinda cruel to assume a sex-change will change anything, a promise of a life they can't have. As skiboy said, what they want isn't necesarily what they need. What they really want can't be provided.

Taking your three sub-themes in reverse order:

Eventually, medical science will progress to the point where some form of physical sex change is possible, this may even include full functionality in time -- the ethics of such advanced procedures will be decided, as usual, only after they become practicable.

Results on quality of life issues following sex reassignment surgeries are mixed. 3 in 4 report satisfaction with almost half (m to f) reporting more or less normal sexual function thereafter. On the other hand, post surgery Transgenders have increased rates of suicide and attempted suicide. Clearly, the results are mixed.

Discrimination? I hope that we are all discriminating about who we sleep with. That discrimination should be based on relevant issues such as perceived attractiveness, personality interest, shared interests and goals, etc. -- in short, all of the usual things that go into a relationship. For the post-operative, the issue only has a direct relevance on procreation (an admittedly big, if not central, element in many relationships).

[Fragony]

I think it's a hard topic, I would never deny it to them if it makes them happy but it keeps feeling wrong probably because I would have to 'see' them as a woman/men, like I am supposed to be a figurant in their theater. I am not really sure what I think of it. They can do whatever they want to but I don't really am all that motivated to play along, neither will society that could explain the suicide rate. If it helps them they should be helped but I don't think I will ever really accept it, it just goes against the way I look at things. I also don't really buy it really that there is such a thing as being born in the wrong body, I make no claims whatsoever mind you, I am no expert, but I am just kinda suspicious that it as simple to be just having a sex-change.

[Beskar]

You call it discrimination Tiaexz but would you sleep with a transgender, I certainly wouldn't. It's even kinda cruel to assume a sex-change will change anything, a promise of a life they can't have. As skiboy said, what they want isn't necesarily what they need. What they really want can't be provided.

You are aware that many people go to Thailand for the allure of such pleasures, even MRD said about such activities in the Philippines too. Because you don't want to, doesn't mean no one wants to. Some people like boys, some like girls, some like a little in-between. As Seamus touched on, it is the choice of people involved and for their own personal discriminations. Who am I to judge what consenting adults want to do? I dislike Snicker bars and other chocolate/peanut combination snacks, doesn't mean we should ban them from the shops.

You know that argument is a little silly Frags, it is nothing to do with personal preferences and assumptions based upon them.


Then how does wanting to play with barbies make you trans-gender?

*shrugs* It is what the person said when talking about it. I think I played with a Sydney doll, which is like a rival company version of Barbie as a Action-Mans significant other at a young age. As far as I am aware, I am not signed up for any gender reassignment listings. From the interaction, it is clear that the individual was trying to point to stereotypical norms of what they say is feminine and expressed it as a demonstration of how they align themselves with that category more than the category they have for being male.

I do have some sympathy for transgender individuals as I feel I am an atypical male. I dislike football, I dislike beer and heavy drinking, I don't go "cor look at dem titties!" when I approach a female and I don't scratch my rear-crack in public generally acting like a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal. I am obviously jesting with this paragraph, but how many of those characteristics apply to you? I assume barely any, but there you go, there is a 'male stereotype', because of its existence, is it valid? I do feel that overt pronounces of certain stereotypical traits does alienate people and some people are more sensitive to this than others. Also transgender can be very cultural specific, the nation with the highest gender reassignment rate is Iran, mostly as some homosexuals see it as a way to legally be with others without being hung.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You are aware that many people go to Thailand for the allure of such pleasures, even MRD said about such activities in the Philippines too. Because you don't want to, doesn't mean no one wants to. Some people like boys, some like girls, some like a little in-between. As Seamus touched on, it is the choice of people involved and for their own personal discriminations. Who am I to judge what consenting adults want to do? I dislike Snicker bars and other chocolate/peanut combination snacks, doesn't mean we should ban them from the shops.

You know that argument is a little silly Frags, it is nothing to do with personal preferences and assumptions based upon them.



*shrugs* It is what the person said when talking about it. I think I played with a Sydney doll, which is like a rival company version of Barbie as a Action-Mans significant other at a young age. As far as I am aware, I am not signed up for any gender reassignment listings. From the interaction, it is clear that the individual was trying to point to stereotypical norms of what they say is feminine and expressed it as a demonstration of how they align themselves with that category more than the category they have for being male.

I do have some sympathy for transgender individuals as I feel I am an atypical male. I dislike football, I dislike beer and heavy drinking, I don't go "cor look at dem titties!" when I approach a female and I don't scratch my rear-crack in public generally acting like a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal. I am obviously jesting with this paragraph, but how many of those characteristics apply to you? I assume barely any, but there you go, there is a 'male stereotype', because of its existence, is it valid? I do feel that overt pronounces of certain stereotypical traits does alienate people and some people are more sensitive to this than others. Also transgender can be very cultural specific, the nation with the highest gender reassignment rate is Iran, mostly as some homosexuals see it as a way to legally be with others without being hung.

That closing pun is worthy of Gregoshi. I salute you!

[Kadagar_AV]

That closing pun is worthy of Gregoshi. I salute you!

OMG, I totally missed that pun. Effin brilliant!

[Montmorency]

how many gay Anglican theologians are you supposed to know?

So you've been gay this whole time? :beam:

Seamus, the problem with stereotypes is that they are useful - indeed, necessary.

Stereotypes are heuristics used in literally every component of cognition, from identifying objects to assessing and predicting the actions of individuals on the basis of region, occupation, facial expression, and so on.

And now, going in the other direction, I would say that all stereotypes, being heuristic, fail at some point - usually sooner rather than later. Even stereotyping a single individual on the basis of extensive relationship, let alone "personality" - that is, intra-individual stereotypes - is extremely problematic.

Yet we cannot abandon stereotypes on any level, because they are an inherent neurological fact and also because it could not practically be any other way, unless we had infinite cognitive resources: in short, divinity.

But someone or thing with the intelligence could develop extremely powerful and effective stereotypes. Such a one would become our overlord in short order.

Anyway, I do agree that ethnic stereotypes are often the least productive ones, not least because they are usually built from ignorance rather than any deep case-knowledge...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So you've been gay this whole time? :beam:

Seamus, the problem with stereotypes is that they are useful - indeed, necessary.

Stereotypes are heuristics used in literally every component of cognition, from identifying objects to assessing and predicting the actions of individuals on the basis of region, occupation, facial expression, and so on.

And now, going in the other direction, I would say that all stereotypes, being heuristic, fail at some point - usually sooner rather than later. Even stereotyping a single individual on the basis of extensive relationship, let alone "personality" - that is, intra-individual stereotypes - is extremely problematic.

Yet we cannot abandon stereotypes on any level, because they are an inherent neurological fact and also because it could not practically be any other way, unless we had infinite cognitive resources: in short, divinity.

But someone or thing with the intelligence could develop extremely powerful and effective stereotypes. Such a one would become our overlord in short order.

Anyway, I do agree that ethnic stereotypes are often the least productive ones, not least because they are usually built from ignorance rather than any deep case-knowledge...

Agreed. I should have been more selective in expressing my point. I think it is wise to question/discard stereotypes when dealing with other persons. As a heuristic tool -- the shorthand I mention -- stereotypes have their place and are by no means an inherent evil.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So you've been gay this whole time? :beam:

Sorry to disappoint - no.

Would you believe I critique raunchy fanfics for computer games like the Elder Scrolls and Dishonoured, though?

And before your mind gets too blown - just remember that one Pope apparently achieved the Holy See with the help of a Succubus.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

kadagar hit the nail on the head with the comparison to anorexia. Any doctor who prescribed liposuction for an anorexic should lose his license, even with a three year wait and consultation with mental health "experts". Surgery is not a treatment, helping people to not be irrationally uncomfortable with their bodies is.

A closer comparison would be that disorder some bodybuilder types have, dysmorphia or something like that, since that is gender related as well. Some people actually get injections and implants. http://thechive.com/2013/09/20/i-think-this-guy-mightve-broke-the-bro-dometer-19-photos/guy-on-synthol-transformation-8/

There was also a case I think of some guy who tried to transform himself into a tiger using plastic surgery. Also, there a thing where people have a sexual fetish for thinking of themselves as an amputee, and seek to have parts of their body amputated. Basically, trying to transform your body through surgery like that is just never healthy.

The most important thing to remember about these conditions is that no one is born with them. You cannot inherently have anorexia, or dysmorphia. Transgender people are not actually women in men's bodies or vice versa, they just obsess (often as a sexual fetish) about it. They are likely predisposed to some degree, but the full fledged condition always comes from obsession or monomania. Without thinking about, fantasizing about it, etc, the urge would not be so powerful as to interfere with their life.

What makes these surgical treatments incredibly immoral is that it is entirely possible that they will find that a new drug comparable to ritalin or prozac, combined with therapy, could get these people who feel they are "in the wrong body" to be content with the body they have, and just think of themselves as a very feminine personality with a masculine body. Maybe the would just cross dress sometimes. Surgery is expensive, basically irreversible, people die during it sometimes, and since it doesn't get at the root of the problem it leads to more suicides than a real treatment would.

there's at least some evidence that this might be possible:

"In 1988 the treatment with buspirone of a m a n who had a transvestic fetishism
was first reported {Fedoroff, 1988}. Using an open A-B-A design, this patient was
successfully treated using a low dose of buspirone {5 mg three times a day}. While
taking buspirone he reported a dramatic decrease in his urges to cross-dress. His
urges to cross-dress returned when he discontinued the medication and remitted
again when he restarted the medication. Of particular interest was his wife's
report that his sexual interest and performance with her improved while he was
taking buspirone (Fedoroff, 1989}. "

I would not be surprised if simple depression is a major factor for many of them in desiring surgery. I read more about this a while back but I don't remember the details. Basically we know that drugs can effect obsessive behavior and the sex drive to some degree. Can't quote the articles sorry.


however, it seems entirely possible that possible treatments of this sort will be ignored and remain uninvestigated as it becomes a political, ideological issue. michael bailey's book "the man who would be queen" was very good on this subject in general. He is pro-transgender people to an almost absurd degree, but his argument that one kind of transexuallity is a sexual paraphilia which he calls "autogynephilia" (being aroused by thinking of oneself as a woman) resulted in harassment:



"The hostilities began in the spring of 2003, when Dr. Bailey published a book, “The Man Who Would Be Queen,” intended to explain the biology of sexual orientation and gender to a general audience.

“The next two years,” Dr. Bailey said in an interview, “were the hardest of my life.”
...
Other scientists praised the book as a compelling explanation of the science. The Lambda Literary Foundation, an organization that promotes gay, bisexual and transgender literature, nominated the book for an award.

But days after the book appeared, Lynn Conway, a prominent computer scientist at the University of Michigan, sent out an e-mail message comparing Dr. Bailey’s views to Nazi propaganda.
...
by the end of 2003, the controversy had a life of its own on the Internet. Dr. Conway, the computer scientist, kept a running chronicle of the accusations against Dr. Bailey on her Web site. Any Google search of Dr. Bailey’s name brought up Dr. Conway’s site near the top of the list.

The site also included a link to the Web page of another critic of Dr. Bailey’s book, Andrea James, a Los Angeles-based transgender advocate and consultant. Ms. James downloaded images from Dr. Bailey’s Web site of his children, taken when they were in middle and elementary school, and posted them on her own site, with sexually explicit captions that she provided. (Dr. Bailey is a divorced father of two.) Ms. James said in an e-mail message that Dr. Bailey’s work exploited vulnerable people, especially children, and that her response echoed his disrespect."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/health/psychology/21gender.html?pagewanted=2

!!!!


this is also a good read:

http://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/02/surgical-sex--35

********************

as far as the schools and bathrooms goes. It is obviously absurd. Someone feeling that they are a woman in a man's body has no relevance at all to using a bathroom. Is their psyche supposed to be so fragile that having to go into the "men's room" is traumatising? Clearly it is just being turned into a stupid ideological crusade of some kind:

""This is a powerful affirmation of basic human dignity, and puts California at the forefront of leadership on transgender rights," said Assembly Speaker John Perez, D-Los Angeles, in a statement. "Young transgender Californians should be treated with dignity and respect, and recognized for who they truly are.""

A complete non issue is being made out to be something gigantic, the very frontier of human rights. 100% nonsense.


*************

"So throughout the process you are examined by multiple professionals before over the course of three years before a blade even touches you."--Tiaxz

I think you just have too much trust in the professionals. There is a great deal of ideology and pseudo-science in mental health. Remember it wasn't that long ago that thousands of people were being accused of raping their children by therapy patients who had been convinced that the supposed victims had repressed the memory of it.

[Fragony]

'You are aware that many people go to Thailand for the allure of such pleasures, even MRD said about such activities in the Philippines too. Because you don't want to, doesn't mean no one wants to. Some people like boys, some like girls, some like a little in-between. As Seamus touched on, it is the choice of people involved and for their own personal discriminations. Who am I to judge what consenting adults want to do? I dislike Snicker bars and other chocolate/peanut combination snacks, doesn't mean we should ban them from the shops.

You know that argument is a little silly Frags, it is nothing to do with personal preferences and assumptions based upon them.'

I never made that any argument that denied that. I don't care what consenting adults do, if they are happy I am happyfor them.

[Kadagar_AV]

Thank you Sasaki, you kind of made my point in a more elaborate and more diplomatic way :bow:

So yeah... What he said instead of what I said...

[Rhyfelwyr]

I don't get how people can claim that gender is just a socially-created construct. Our brains are wired completely differently. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25198063)

We get our concepts of masculinity and femeninity from applying the core biological realities to the particular social environment. Hence in recent decades the ideal male was a nice guy with a stable job who would provide economic security for his family. Now due a change in the economic climate, many men can't offer that any more, and as Dianne Abbot has noted (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/may/14/male-identity-crisis-machismo-abbott), this has led to a return to more 'macho' values and now physical strength is what men have to offer. Note how the varying concepts of manliness are all rooted in indisputable biological realities - superior male strength, the strong male as the provider (going back to a time when strength/fitness was directly related to your ability to provide - hunters etc).

As for transgender people, homosexuals, and the various others that reject the natural use of their own body - I think they do this when they see that they can't fulfil the social roles attributed to their gender. That is why homosexuals tend to be camp, lesbians tend to be butch, etc. Not entirely so of course, but the trend is pervasive enough to warrant observation.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I don't get how people can claim that gender is just a socially-created construct. Our brains are wired completely differently. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25198063)

We get our concepts of masculinity and femeninity from applying the core biological realities to the particular social environment. Hence in recent decades the ideal male was a nice guy with a stable job who would provide economic security for his family. Now due a change in the economic climate, many men can't offer that any more, and as Dianne Abbot has noted (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/may/14/male-identity-crisis-machismo-abbott), this has led to a return to more 'macho' values and now physical strength is what men have to offer. Note how the varying concepts of manliness are all rooted in indisputable biological realities - superior male strength, the strong male as the provider (going back to a time when strength/fitness was directly related to your ability to provide - hunters etc).

As for transgender people, homosexuals, and the various others that reject the natural use of their own body - I think they do this when they see that they can't fulfil the social roles attributed to their gender. That is why homosexuals tend to be camp, lesbians tend to be butch, etc. Not entirely so of course, but the trend is pervasive enough to warrant observation.

I said that most social scientists separate sex and gender, with sex being a physical, biological fact and gender being a mental construct. I did NOT say that sex was therefore irrelevant. There are a few "only nurture matters" types out there, but I have never agreed with that viewpoint.

Yes, by a large margin, most people are comfortable in enacting/embodying a gender that conforms to most of the behaviors etc. associated with that gender in a particular culture. Those who cannot are likely to suffer marginalization, ostracism, or outright discrimination.

Also, there are a number of persons who might be offended by your labeling of homosexuality or transgenderism as not being "natural." They would argue that these lifestyles too are a part of the "natural world." You would be correct in noting that they are comparatively rare and represent only small minorities within the larger mass of humanity -- that's verifiable with simple statistical measures.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Fair play Seamus, but regarding the last bit:


Also, there are a number of persons who might be offended by your labeling of homosexuality or transgenderism as not being "natural." They would argue that these lifestyles too are a part of the "natural world." You would be correct in noting that they are comparatively rare and represent only small minorities within the larger mass of humanity -- that's verifiable with simple statistical measures.

I mean natural in the sense of being natural to the human condition. The natural human way of life is to enjoy monogamous heterosexual relationships within a self-sufficient extended family unit, based in a wider community of around 150 people. That is what our brains are wired for. Anything else is unnatural to the human condition.

Although even if you were to think of nature as the whole animal kingdom, I've never really seen any precent for homosexuality as a sexual identity the way people use it nowadays. Homosexuality tend to be either acts of dominance or desperation (the lack of female partners).

[Beskar]

kadagar hit the nail on the head with the comparison to anorexia. Any doctor who prescribed liposuction for an anorexic should lose his license, even with a three year wait and consultation with mental health "experts". Surgery is not a treatment, helping people to not be irrationally uncomfortable with their bodies is.

This is more rhetorical than practical. You are over looking the elephant in the room and missing out cosmetic surgery.

Lets be honest, this how anorexia argument is a ploy just trying to discredit any form of surgery. I won't go as far as to include 'obvious cases' where surgery is indeed treatment as that would be going in the reverse direction and being guilty of committing the same fallacy.

For example, Breast reduction is a surgery practise which you can get treatment for. There are cases where breasts are too big for comfort. Leaving them there would have no serious complications, however, due to their large size, they could interfere with breathing, back problems, there may be more cosmetic such as dress sizes/clothes being horrendous to fit. There are increases of depression, anxiety, being very self-conscious of oversized breasts. Instead of tackling the cause, you are using medication to mask the symptoms when there is a valid solution to the problem.


A closer comparison would be... dysmorphia or something like that, since that is gender related as well. Some people actually get injections and implants.

Plausible in some cases. I don't disagree.


I would not be surprised if simple depression is a major factor for many of them in desiring surgery. I read more about this a while back but I don't remember the details. Basically we know that drugs can effect obsessive behavior and the sex drive to some degree. Can't quote the articles sorry.[/quoute]

No problem, I know about the research. There is a fundamental problem about cause and effect. Lets say you lost your wedding ring, and you were upset (and so would your partner). If I gave you medication so you felt happier, I gave you pills to confront the anxiety when having to tell your partner, I gave you some nytol to help with sleeping. Am I treating you ?

That is something you have to consider.

Personally, you are not being treated. Treatment would be tackling the cause of the issue, such as helping you find your wedding ring, being able to get a replacement, perhaps intervention with your partner to make them more reasonable. Solutions.

[QUOTE]however, it seems entirely possible that possible treatments of this sort will be ignored and remain uninvestigated as it becomes a political, ideological issue. michael bailey's book "the man who would be queen" was very good on this subject in general. He is pro-transgender people to an almost absurd degree, but his argument that one kind of transexuallity is a sexual paraphilia which he calls "autogynephilia" (being aroused by thinking of oneself as a woman) resulted in harassment:


There is more to it than political/ideological as I mentioned in the quote before, but I do condemn baseless accusations upon some ones character.


Someone feeling that they are a woman in a man's body has no relevance at all to using a bathroom. Is their psyche supposed to be so fragile that having to go into the "men's room" is traumatising? Clearly it is just being turned into a stupid ideological crusade of some kind:

Well, there is a difference between "I feel abit feminine, I am going to use the womans bathroom with my beard, suit and tie" compared to a post-op transexual in a dress, breasts, otherwise looking just like a female using the womans room.


I think you just have too much trust in the professionals.
Possible. I do know a lot of very competent professionals. I also do know some who shouldn't really have their job as I don't feel they are the right person suited for that line of work.

[Beskar]

Although even if you were to think of nature as the whole animal kingdom, I've never really seen any precent for homosexuality as a sexual identity the way people use it nowadays. Homosexuality tend to be either acts of dominance or desperation (the lack of female partners).

You missed out there is simply the sheer pleasure of enjoyment too. Best way to think about it is simply preferences. I like Mars bars, you like Snickers, are either one of us really wrong? A homosexual can enjoy a heterosexual encounter and a heterosexual can enjoy a homosexual encounter, but the way it is portrayed in society is more rooted in our need for self-identification based on our internal values, sometimes inspite of them, as seen by group-polarisation.

As for the natural in the beginning, short answer is this. Reality is far more basic than that, and you are overcomplicating the natural order to have it conform to your belief.

[Montmorency]

Reality is far more basic than that, and you are overcomplicating the natural order to have it conform to your belief.

This is more generally applicable to all topics, probably.

[Beskar]

This is more generally applicable to all topics, probably.

I am sure some one said a quote like: "Nature is simple, man is complicated"

Though disagreements would occur when you look deeply into cell biology, I have to admit, sometimes I wonder how we even are existing when you go deep into the subject. It makes the interior of a cell and their relations with others akin to the complex functioning of a interstellar empire.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

This is more rhetorical than practical. You are over looking the elephant in the room and missing out cosmetic surgery.

Lets be honest, this how anorexia argument is a ploy just trying to discredit any form of surgery. I won't go as far as to include 'obvious cases' where surgery is indeed treatment as that would be going in the reverse direction and being guilty of committing the same fallacy.

For example, Breast reduction is a surgery practise which you can get treatment for. There are cases where breasts are too big for comfort. Leaving them there would have no serious complications, however, due to their large size, they could interfere with breathing, back problems, there may be more cosmetic such as dress sizes/clothes being horrendous to fit. There are increases of depression, anxiety, being very self-conscious of oversized breasts. Instead of tackling the cause, you are using medication to mask the symptoms when there is a valid solution to the problem.

I don't think the anorexia argument is a ploy anymore than your breast reduction argument is a ploy. I am simply saying that for anorexics and bodybuilder dysmorphics, it is wrong to fix their problems with surgery, and by analogy so it is with transexuals. You on the other hand, make the analogy between a transexual and this woman who wants breast reduction surgery. But the way you are describing this person who wants breast reduction, they have back pain, trouble finding clothes, self-consciousness. None of that requires medication surely. It's simply not very significant, it's not comparable to how intensely important some transexual people feel their issue is. You are describing the equivalent of someone 40 pounds overweight who would like to lose it, not the equivalent of an anorexic person.


No problem, I know about the research. There is a fundamental problem about cause and effect. Lets say you lost your wedding ring, and you were upset (and so would your partner). If I gave you medication so you felt happier, I gave you pills to confront the anxiety when having to tell your partner, I gave you some nytol to help with sleeping. Am I treating you ?

That is something you have to consider.

Personally, you are not being treated. Treatment would be tackling the cause of the issue, such as helping you find your wedding ring, being able to get a replacement, perhaps intervention with your partner to make them more reasonable. Solutions.

I don't see how this is an argument for your position. Usually therapy is not needed, much less medication, much less surgery. Someone losing a wedding ring is a good example of a case where no help is needed. It's the equivalent of someone a bit overweight like I said. Someone very overweight might need some more professional advice from a dietician, etc. Someone extremely obese might realistically need a gastric bypass. Although even there the tendency is to see surgery as a quick fix--actually same with the show a biggest loser iirc. The case of anorexia is fundamentally different. Anorexics are not fat, but believe they are. Transexuals are not women in man's bodies, but either believe they are or are kind of obsessed with the idea, the way anorexics are obsessed with their own body image. They need to be helped to see things the way they are. If they have a sexual fetish, or are clinically depressed, then drugs could potentially help them see that. If we had a pill that could make anorexics see things clearly it would be much better to give it to them than to prescribe liposuction.

**********

You mentioned earlier a lot of things about people feeling that being male is all an act, about our division of clothes into feminine and masculine being just cultural, and ways in which you aren't stereotypically masculine. But there are many many people who aren't stereotypically masculine or feminine who are just fine with being themselves in their own bodies. What if someone who felt they needed extensive surgery could somehow come to not want that? Especially your friend who is a "big broad male which no amount of surgery could ever work for them"? I think it's an outrage that people in a health field would spend several years saying "we'll wait and see if you stay the same in your desire for this" rather than actively helping them not desire it. Perhaps they are making a false analogy to homosexuality, but they have no excuse for doing that.


************
And anyway, I have to ask. What about the guys who are navy seals, or own a military history publishing house, or something extremely masculine, and then when they act like a woman they act like an extremely stereotypical woman? What do you think is going on there? If it is about not being stereotypical, how come they are so stereotypical?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Fair play SeamusI mean natural in the sense of being natural to the human condition. The natural human way of life is to enjoy monogamous heterosexual relationships within a self-sufficient extended family unit, based in a wider community of around 150 people. That is what our brains are wired for. Anything else is unnatural to the human condition.

Although even if you were to think of nature as the whole animal kingdom, I've never really seen any precent for homosexuality as a sexual identity the way people use it nowadays. Homosexuality tend to be either acts of dominance or desperation (the lack of female partners).

Monogamous heterosexual relationships are by no means the natural way of life for humanity and are not hard wired into our brains at all. Any number of polyamorous set-ups have been used through the centuries in divers cultures (a mental construction that is a learned facet of existence, not hard-sired). As a Westerner and an American, I find those other forms unfulfilling -- preferring the arrangement you describe -- but that's a cultural preference.

The Human condition has always been a blend of the mental construct imposed by ourselves and the dictates of biology. The combination is the reason for our dominant status on this planet and is basic to our survival as a species. Operating alone, humans are relatively slow, relatively weak, and probably fairly tasty. Put us together in a coordinated group and our intelligence lets us top the food chain. To do so, however, we have to communicate and we have to develop some form of culture that reifies the knowledge, skills, and rules of living that promote the health of the community. There is no one culture that has the "ideal" recipe for success -- yet most of them can succeed. This is true whether its a Greek city-state with its males using women for children and boys for pleasure or a puritan household with all the trimmings in the Plymouth Bay colony.

To date I am unsure as to how homosexuality (other than the situational kind you allude to) fits into the survival picture. Nevertheless, it is a recurrent element in human history and seems to account for 2-3% of the population throughout history and across cultures (despite I'm-a-dinner-jacket's famous assertion). It gets hard to claim that such a recurrent component is NOT part of the human condition in a "natural" sense, even though it clearly does not aid, directly, in the basic imperative of species survival.

[Montmorency]

Good, but the "dictates of biology" of course underpin these "mental constructs"; change the biology, and we get a whole new style of mental construct.

Some call it madness; some call it Semantic Apocalypse.

[PanzerJaeger]

That is why homosexuals tend to be camp, lesbians tend to be butch, etc. Not entirely so of course, but the trend is pervasive enough to warrant observation.

This has not been true in my experience. Camp/butch homosexuals are the most visible - especially as that seems to be the only way in which they are portrayed in popular culture, unfortunately - but I do not believe one could say with any certainty that they are the most numerous.

[Beskar]

This has not been true in my experience. Camp/butch homosexuals are the most visible - especially as that seems to be the only way in which they are portrayed in popular culture, unfortunately - but I do not believe one could say with any certainty that they are the most numerous.

In my work-place, a large percentage of males are homosexual. Only one of them can be described as 'Fabulous' whilst two act a little camp, whilst the other seven act pretty 'normal' and you only really 'notice' when they mention about having a boyfriend whilst the heterosexual ones generally talk about their kids, as they otherwise act no different. Only slight difference if any, is that the homosexual colleagues are generally more presentable and smartly dressed.

Just expanding on Panzers contribution.

[Beskar]

I don't see how this is an argument for your position. Usually therapy is not needed, much less medication, much less surgery. Someone losing a wedding ring is a good example of a case where no help is needed.

That is completely missing the point/moral of the story. The details can be adjusted rather easily (as they don't matter) to better examples whilst still retaining the essence of the concept.


If we had a pill that could make anorexics see things clearly it would be much better to give it to them than to prescribe liposuction.

This is where I say this is a ploy because it is basically a non-sequitur. Prescribing liposuction/hunger-suppressants will kill an anorexic. The whole idea is absurd. How do you compare examples where in one example is virtually certain death whilst in the other example, it is as harmless as a man having a boob-job. My breast-reduction comparison is more in-line with reality as that includes 'butchering' as it was delightfully described involving the same sort of risks which might be involved.


I think it's an outrage that people in a health field would spend several years saying "we'll wait and see if you stay the same in your desire for this" rather than actively helping them not desire it. Perhaps they are making a false analogy to homosexuality, but they have no excuse for doing that.

No, that is what they do. It is a 'wait and see' as the person goes through counselling and they try to tackle the emotions and issues involved. Surgery and hormone treatments can have irreversible results, so they want to make clear what any risks and downsides are. It isn't encouragement, it is only support and help for the people involved. Even why there is a whole 'live a year as a female' to see if the person involved are very aware of downsides and public perception.

[Fragony]

I second that, a few of my friends are gay, if I didn't know I couldn't tell. Even been with one of them to a gay-bar, saw nothing but normal guys. Did have a gay collegue where you could notice it but that was just how he was, we didn't along but that was because he was a suckup (no pun intended). He was fun to prank though. Once bought a cake and put a note on it 'for my dear dear Boss, greets René' and put it on my bosses desk. The look on his face was priceless. Keeping a straight face was pretty hard.

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[Montmorency]

Bottom line, for the time being at least medical ethics seem to point to trying to get people comfortable in their own skin above all else. :shrug:

The cosmetic neurosurgery will be sooo 2020s. :sneaky:

[Beskar]

Boob jobs are reversible. Genital mutilation is not. Given current social stigmas regarding post op transgenders one could even argue that having the transformation and living in certain regions is death in every aspect except the physical one.

Different matter really. Homosexuality is illegal in Iran, Transgender is not. Different regions have different rules. We are living in a open-minded liberal democracy. You can get death sentence for premartial sex in some regions too, do you think you should face that punishment?

Eitherway, they are living as a woman for a year before surgery. So that is a whole year as that without surgery which might make the fact less obvious.


I am not trying to side with Sasaki here, but I want to ask you a question Tiaexz. Do you believe that currently recognized mental illnesses such as bi-polar disorder, schizophrenia etc... are things which given enough time can become diminished or reversed without outside intervention? Of course I think we would both say that is not the case. So if you apply it to the case of individuals uncomfortable with the sex of their body, can you see why the notion of "3 years wait, along with some doctors notes" is not a sufficient policy for medical professionals to be implementing?


I am not fully understanding your argument here... Breaking it down:
Serious mental issues, these generally require treatment to make them well.
It is unlikely they would be diminished or reversed without outside intervention.
Those with transgender issues are suffering the same.
Because there is 3 years involving professions which will treat medically with drugs and counselling the people involved. This is not sufficient.

I am guessing you are overlooking the fact that non-surgical methods are used before the surgical methods are employed. They are quite conservative in their prescription.


The same problem occurs when you talk about this waiting period being time for counseling and tackling emotions involved, this is presuming that the individual in question is still more or less a rational actor. If this desire is more of an obsession characteristic of any other mental illness, simple introspection is not likely to provide any headway other than a deeper commitment to their obsession.

Well, you are tested that you are indeed a rational actor.If you are sectioned under the mental health act, you cannot have the surgery. If you are mentally incapable as to where some one has to act on your behalf, you cannot have the surgery either.

[Kadagar_AV]

Different matter really. Homosexuality is illegal in Iran, Transgender is not. Different regions have different rules. We are living in a open-minded liberal democracy. You can get death sentence for premartial sex in some regions too, do you think you should face that punishment?

I agree with your opening, that it is a different matter entirely.

I must however question why you then go on to compare apples to pears?

As a sidenote, the idea that you (we / people in the western world) are living in an open-minded liberal democracy is laughable.

Laughable Tribesman style: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

I know you wrote more stuff. I just got bored after the first block and decided to point out the hideous errors in that before being bothered to read on.

[Beskar]

I know you wrote more stuff. I just got bored after the first block and decided to point out the hideous errors in that before being bothered to read on.

It is technically correct. :shrug: So no error.

The 'west' is often addressed as liberal democracy, with sometimes even 'social democracy' being used to describe the mostly the more eurocentric ones.

[Kadagar_AV]

It is technically correct. :shrug: So no error.

That's what she said.. But I'm afraid she was only trying to be nice mate..

[Beskar]

That's what she said.. But I'm afraid she was only trying to be nice mate..

Okay.

[Kadagar_AV]

It's way more fair if you answer instead of going back editing.

Anyway.. Nooooo.. We don't live in much of an open liberal society, or we wouldn't be here arguing it, would we?

[Beskar]

Anyway.. Nooooo.. We don't live in much of an open liberal society, or we wouldn't be here arguing it, would we?

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy#Liberal_democracies_around_the_world):

Liberal democracy is a form of government in which representative democracy operates under the principles of liberalism, i.e. protecting the rights of minorities and, especially, the individual. It is characterized by fair, free, and competitive elections between multiple distinct political parties, a separation of powers into different branches of government, the rule of law in everyday life as part of an open society, and the equal protection of human rights, civil rights, civil liberties, and political freedoms for all persons. To define the system in practice, liberal democracies often draw upon a constitution, either formally written or uncodified, to delineate the powers of government and enshrine the social contract. After a period of sustained expansion throughout the 20th century, liberal democracy became the predominant political system in the world.

Liberal Democracies around the world:

There is agreement amongst several intellectuals and organizations such as Freedom House that the states of the European Union, Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, Japan, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, South Korea, Taiwan, the United States, India, Canada, Israel,[7][8][9][10][11] Mexico, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand[12] are liberal democracies, with Canada having the largest land area and India currently having the largest population among the democracies in the world.[13]

Boundless on Liberal Democracy (https://www.boundless.com/sociology/understanding-government/democracy/the-spread-of-liberal-democracy/)

Liberal democracy is a common form of representative democracy. According to the principles of liberal democracy, elections should be free and fair, with the presence of multiple and distinct political parties. Liberal democracies also usually have universal suffrage, granting all adult citizens the right to vote.

From the History Learning (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/liberal_democracy.htm) website -

Liberal democracy is frequently used to describe the political philosophy of America. Though books may argue about how many governments America has, each sector of government would claim to base itself on liberal democracy. Indeed the basis of governments having to go to the electorate on a fixed and frequent rate is part of this democratic process whereby government is done for the people rather than an exercise that leads to the creation of policies but at the exclusion of public debate.

Numerous books/journals on the issue, and this is very loosely skimming the surface -
The Strange Triumph of Liberal Democracy (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/136918/shlomo-avineri/the-strange-triumph-of-liberal-democracy)
Low Fertility and Liberal Democracy in Western Europe (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1972620?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21103096879207)

There is a handy website called google (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Liberal+Democracy) which may assist if you wish to know more.

[Kadagar_AV]

No western country is liberal. I think the closest we got was England, but the people whining about child labour RUINED it.

And if it was open, we wouldn't be worried that big brother read this, would we?

[Xiahou]

As with most things, SouthPark handled this issue with the delicate sensitivity (http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s09e01-mr-garrisons-fancy-new-vagina) they're known for....

Personally, I think we're better off teaching people to accept and like who they are rather than trying to change them into something they're not and never will be. :shrug:

[PanzerJaeger]

Transsexuality is a complicated subject that I am certainly not knowledgeable or qualified enough to make any kind of judgment about. I do believe two things, however:

A) Gender reassignment is a financially draining, physically grueling, and emotionally exhausting process that takes years to complete. If someone has committed to that process, it can generally be assumed that their decision stems from years of agonizing, unbearable discomfort with their bodies. It is most definitely not a decision made lightly. As a society, we should respect that decision and have the decency to allow them to live as their chosen gender free of the social stigma that currently surrounds transgender people, including the use of public restrooms and other facilities appropriate to their gender. Whether we believe that it is a mental disorder or that gender truly can be misapplied during gestation, it is clear that transexuality is not a conscious choice. We owe them the same respect, compassion, and human dignity that everyone should be afforded in a proper liberal democracy.

B) It is very unhealthy to foster a medical establishment that is incentivized to funnel children into gender reassignment therapy. No child can truly comprehend or consent to such a process, and no parent should be allowed to make that decision for him/her.

[Beskar]

We owe them the same respect, compassion, and human dignity that everyone should be afforded in a proper liberal democracy.

I agree completely.


B) It is very unhealthy to foster a medical establishment that is incentivized to funnel children into gender reassignment therapy. No child can truly comprehend or consent to such a process, and no parent should be allowed to make that decision for him/her.

Luckily, there is no incentive, as I mentioned earlier, they are quite conservative with it. Children only end up involved when they are born mixed sex (then public healthcare might be involved) or through private channels where finances would severely limit people eligible for this and parents by nature would be very hesitant in enabling children to go through it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[Papewaio]

Women are more than just a certain pattern of behaviors and clothes. Unless you have a uterus, you are not really living as a woman.

This is probably one of the most quaint and incredibly insulting posts I have seen in sometime without malicious intent , I think... If it is on purpose then its sexist too.

First you are confusing gender with sexual phenotype. There is obviously a large cross over between the two but they aren't equivalent. Compare the gender roles for say as a Canadian lumberjack vs a San Francisco IT hipster.

Second the insult. You have just said that a woman who has had a hysterectomy is no longer a woman. So is your Grandma not a woman because she had gone through menopause and her uterus is surplus to requirements? Pretty awful statement to make both socially and factually.

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[Fragony]

Can an ozzy explain this to me? Australia made gay marriage illegal again, and 27 marriages have been disbanded. But when these marriages were held it was still legal, I find that kinda odd, wouldn't that be changing the rules in the middle of the game

[Papewaio]

Simple a state let alone a territory cannot make a law contradictory to the Consitution and have it stand.

The Federal government will first have to have the Consitution changed to allow same sex marriages.

=][=

As for sex phenotypes people can just like genders display a range. For instance there is a lot of children born whose gender is indeterminate, others who appear to be one but are in fact the other and individuals who have physical traits normally only observed in the other sex type. BTW some species have more then 2 sexes.

So some humans have physical transgender identifying parts, others have a mindset that gender wise does not match their physical layout. Humans are not cookie cutter and the Y chromosome is not always dominate. Then add in Chimeras, gene switching etc and one can see a spectrum with peaks and troughs not just a binary human population.

[Shaka_Khan]

So any man who dresses like a woman in California can use the ladies' room?