Mandela - Sinner or Saint

[PanzerJaeger]

RIP to all of Nelson Mandela's many innocent victims.

- split from RIP Mandela thread.

[Montmorency]

You're right - prepare the gallows for Kissinger. :rolleyes:

[Kadagar_AV]

Panzer, I think you might want to explain your thoughts more elaborately, no?

[PanzerJaeger]

No. This is an RIP thread, meaning empty platitudes are the only acceptable response. Spend about five minutes on Google and you'll be able to figure it out.

[Rhyfelwyr]

In the hope this is inkeeping with an RIP thread - Mandela did take part of a lot of activities that are repugnant, and in most circumstances would be wholeheartedly condemned by Western media/society. I think he was flawed and the nature of the ANC's origins always meant it was never going to be well suited to good governance.

But at the same time, he was a product of Apartheid South Africa. The white establishment reaped what they sowed - they wanted the benefits of cheap black labour, traditional black lands - and the resultant oppression that comes with subjugating a population in that way. Those were the conditions that created Mandela and his revolution - the good and the bad.

[Gregoshi]

This is an RIP thread, meaning empty platitudes are the only acceptable response.
And knowing this, you still could not withhold your comments for another few days until his funeral. :no:

The thread at this point in time is for those who wish to pay their respects to Nelson Mandela. After his funeral service, you are all free to discuss the good and/or the ill of the man's life.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And knowing this, you still could not withhold your comments for another few days until his funeral. :no:

The thread at this point in time is for those who wish to pay their respects to Nelson Mandela. After his funeral service, you are all free to discuss the good and/or the ill of the man's life.

I have always enjoyed this backroom tradition.

[ICantSpellDawg]

And knowing this, you still could not withhold your comments for another few days until his funeral. :no:

The thread at this point in time is for those who wish to pay their respects to Nelson Mandela. After his funeral service, you are all free to discuss the good and/or the ill of the man's life.

Bah to censorship. He's not being offended. Mandela always seemed OK, especially when he got older and realized that Marxism was a joke. People live and then they die and this incessant public circle jerk is getting old.

What I enjoy about these high profile deaths is that they get people to pull their heads out and read about historical occurrences for five seconds, or long enough to spray sycophantic platitudes all over everyone.

RIP

[PanzerJaeger]

RIP Nelson Mandela

Really? Your edit changed the intent of my post. I corrected it.

[Beskar]

Really? Your edit changed the intent of my post. I corrected it.

It was changed to a simple acknowledgement of a mans death, in keeping with tradition you mentioned yourself. It wasn't intended to mistake you for an anti-apartheid supporter.

[PanzerJaeger]

It wasn't intended to mistake you for an anti-apartheid supporter.

My stance on apartheid is not the issue (http://www.volkstaat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1340:church-street-bombing-20-may-1983-pictures-of-an-anc-massacre&catid=70:anc-eng&Itemid=127) (NSFW Link).

[a completely inoffensive name]

Personally I am interested in what Panzer has to say about the matter. But I can wait 5 or so days for it.

[HoreTore]

In the hope this is inkeeping with an RIP thread - Mandela did take part of a lot of activities that are repugnant, and in most circumstances would be wholeheartedly condemned by Western media/society. I think he was flawed and the nature of the ANC's origins always meant it was never going to be well suited to good governance.

But at the same time, he was a product of Apartheid South Africa. The white establishment reaped what they sowed - they wanted the benefits of cheap black labour, traditional black lands - and the resultant oppression that comes with subjugating a population in that way. Those were the conditions that created Mandela and his revolution - the good and the bad.

What Mandela's racist opposition(like PJ) somehow doesn't seem to get, is that we hail Mandela because he renounced his previous violence. The man who left Robben Island was a very different man than the one who went in, and it is that man we admire.

[HoreTore]

My stance on apartheid is not the issue (http://www.volkstaat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1340:church-street-bombing-20-may-1983-pictures-of-an-anc-massacre&catid=70:anc-eng&Itemid=127).

This is like linking to Hitler for evidence of Jewish crimes.

[Fragony]

What you don't remember because you never saw it http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc

[Empire*Of*Media]

May his Soul In Peace!
indeed a Great man! i cant imagine myself be in a Damn brutal BRITISH prison for 27 years, and then, after all suffers and tortures and insults those damn british imperialists did to him, for goddamn 27 years, and he forgive them all! he even did not insult his torturers!! what a man can be such a great except GANDHI,Nelson Mandela, Mother Teresa!!

its injustice such this people die but someone like Eisenhower Families, Roosevelt Families, Kissinger, Bush family and such these devils are rich and living!
ah......goddamn this world!



You're right - prepare the gallows for Kissinger. :rolleyes:
Exactly!:yes:


Hey BRENNUS dont you have anything to offense & attack & Insult this great man too?!!

[HoreTore]

What you don't remember because you never saw it http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc

Get over yourself Frags, we all know about it.

We also know the context(something it doesn't look like you do), which allows us to keep admiring Mandela

[Fragony]

Get over yourself Frags, we all know about it.

We also know the context(something it doesn't look like you do), which allows us to keep admiring Mandela

And what is it that you know exactly? Nope, 'you' don't know all about it because quality media ignores it. Doesn't suit the worldview they like to jerk of on. Not being 100% OK is instant excommunication in the leftist church. What's the counter, 40.000 whites butchered by now?

Zimbabwe 2.0

[HoreTore]

And what is it that you know exactly? Nope, 'you' don't know all about it because quality media ignores it. Doesn't suit the worldview they like to jerk of on. Not being 100% OK is instant excommunication in the leftist church. What's the counter, 40.000 whites butchered by now?

Zimbabwe 2.0

I would suggest keeping your uninformed drivel to a non-RIP thread.

[Visor]

I'm seconding Horetore here, this isn't the thread for that. Make one tomorrow if you want.

[Fragony]

I would suggest keeping your uninformed drivel to a non-RIP thread.

True that, apoligies

[Lemur]

A right-winger at NRO gets it right: (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/365631/nelson-mandela-rip-deroy-murdock)

"“Like many other anti-Communists and Cold Warriors, I feared that releasing Nelson Mandela from jail, especially amid the collapse of South Africa’s apartheid government, would create a Cuba on the Cape of Good Hope at best and an African Cambodia at worst […] Far, far, far from any of that, Nelson Mandela turned out to be one of the 20th Century’s great moral leaders, right up there with Mahatma Gandhi and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. […] So, I was dead wrong about Nelson Mandela, a great man and fine example to others, not least the current occupant of the White House. After 95 momentous years on Earth, may Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela rest in peace.” — Deroy Murdock

[Strike For The South]

What the hell. This isn't about Rugby

[Brenus]

“Hey BRENNUS dont you have anything to offense & attack & Insult this great man too?!!” Ho? You are back? You still have to make effort: Brenus, 1 n, Brennus, 2 n, is another person. But, as usual, do not bother with reality.

The fact you seem to miss (well, one of the numerous facts you ignore should I say) is I insult nobody whereas you don’t hesitate. You are a fascist anti-Semitic with Stalinist inclination, or a Stalinist anti-Semitic fascist, so I can’t blame you to use the tactic linked with you obedience.

Then, I can’t offend dead people by definition. Dead people don’t care. I don’t believe in Legends but I recognised Mandela travel and struggle. It is easy to blame a bomb attack on someone when you are not the one daily humiliated, and that one point.

As Gandhi is concerned, he deserves nothing than scorn and shame: he had the sexuality we all know, he was a willing and active political tool of the Indian Bourgeoisie who wanted Independence but without risking a “soviet” revolution in India, and he had no political success in whatsoever fields (except breaking strikes when they were in a momentum to become successful), even at his pick (1934). He told the German Jews to obey Hitler, and the result of his Peaceful Protest was clear when they ended in Auschwitz, Treblinka or Majdenek (or others camps), killing you deny.

Contrary to Gandhi going in hunger strike to force Nehru to go to war against the Muslim (after imposing the Sun Wheel on the Indian Flag, clearly indicating that the Muslim were not real India Citizens), Mandela went for a process of peace and reconciliation. Not perfect, didn’t work everywhere, but it didn’t finish in a blood bath as it was feared.
So RIP Mandela, cross the seas and find rest.

[Empire*Of*Media]

You are a fascist anti-Semitic with Stalinist inclination, or a Stalinist anti-Semitic fascist WOW!!!----what STALINIST?!!:laugh4: so for all, im a dangerous person now!! haha! i didnt know that! so take care or i will bomb your house or cut your throat!:laugh4:

doesnt matter what u say, because you want to wash your guilty & traces of lies of yours with abuse & accusals! all you Imperialists are like each other! all the world is bad and should be offensed but NOT YOURS! you are GOD! maybe upper than something like GOD!! no one should criticize you or he is CONSPIRACY THEORIST, Fascist ,Dictator ,liar and anything to cover your crimes!

but we suppose your right for now, so then you are an Imperialist that supports sucking innocent peoples and deplete their resources ONLY for yours in poor countries only for your Imperialistic wishes and your goddamn benefits!!
if anti Imperialistic and anti 1% controlling the world, and be a freedom fighter and liberal, is anti semitic and ignorance, then im them all! and i praise and i honor it!

the gandhi matter i spoke alot, and many denied your lies, and he will not be an evil by one night of your hate & lies! so i will not go on on that.

the little kind you pretend to Mandela, is for that no one COULD say anything against him, and if such a thread was not posted, then you would post a thread like "Mandela, -snip- that stopped and destroyed imperialistic colonization of south africa"!!

if it would not be Mandela or martin Luther king and revolts of black people, you still would be racist like 200 years UK & US has been and had black slaves like your beloved George Washington and British empire! no difference between Roman Empire in Wild ages with you so called democrat and modern!
so please dont say the holy name of Mandela, for your tongue has the dirt of lies and hate and blood of innocent people!

after all, your in US army, i should not expect better that you

plus, all the thing i said or the lack of discuss, is only because i have forgotten English much, and i cant write without Dictionary! so dont think i cant defend against u in reality!!

sorry Mandela, for those that once tortured you and insulted & mocked you, now misuse your Great name for their own good and purposes!

[Pannonian]

May his Soul In Peace!
indeed a Great man! i cant imagine myself be in a Damn brutal BRITISH prison for 27 years, and then, after all suffers and tortures and insults those damn british imperialists did to him, for goddamn 27 years, and he forgive them all! he even did not insult his torturers!! what a man can be such a great except GANDHI,Nelson Mandela, Mother Teresa!!


Wow, we British were to blame again, this time for Mandela's imprisonment. Is there no end to our iniquities?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You are a fascist anti-Semitic with Stalinist inclination, or a Stalinist anti-Semitic fascist WOW!!!----what STALINIST?!!:laugh4: so for all, im a dangerous person now!! haha! i didnt know that! so take care or i will bomb your house or cut your throat!:laugh4:

doesnt matter what u say, because you want to wash your guilty & traces of lies of yours with abuse & accusals! all you Imperialists are like each other! all the world is bad and should be offensed but NOT YOURS! you are GOD! maybe upper than something like GOD!! no one should criticize you or he is CONSPIRACY THEORIST, Fascist ,Dictator ,liar and anything to cover your crimes!

but we suppose your right for now, so then you are an Imperialist that supports sucking innocent peoples and deplete their resources ONLY for yours in poor countries only for your Imperialistic wishes and your goddamn benefits!!
if anti Imperialistic and anti 1% controlling the world, and be a freedom fighter and liberal, is anti semitic and ignorance, then im them all! and i praise and i honor it!

the gandhi matter i spoke alot, and many denied your lies, and he will not be an evil by one night of your hate & lies! so i will not go on on that.

the little kind you pretend to Mandela, is for that no one COULD say anything against him, and if such a thread was not posted, then you would post a thread like "Mandela, a nigger bastard that stopped and destroyed imperialistic colonization of south africa"!!

if it would not be Mandela or martin Luther king and revolts of black people, you still would be racist like 200 years UK & US has been and had black slaves like your beloved George Washington and British empire! no difference between Roman Empire in Wild ages with you so called democrat and modern!
so please dont say the holy name of Mandela, for your tongue has the dirt of lies and hate and blood of innocent people!

after all, your in US army, i should not expect better that you

plus, all the thing i said or the lack of discuss, is only because i have forgotten English much, and i cant write without Dictionary! so dont think i cant defend against u in reality!!

sorry Mandela, for those that once tortured you and insulted & mocked you, now misuse your Great name for their own good and purposes!

You realise Boers are Dutch, right?

Afrikaans is a dialect of Dutch, not English. No way off there.

Beyond that - Mandela realised, as you do not, that a person should not be judged by the colour of his skin, and you should not cling pointlessly to the past for the purpose of hating someone.

If your skin is dark, and mine is pale, and you live somewhere hot and dry, and I live somewhere cold and wet, and I cannot own land in my own country that cannot be taken away from me because I have a Queen, and you can because you have a Constitution.

What have I ever done to you, other than be born in a different place to different parents?

[Pannonian]

You realise Boers are Dutch, right?

Afrikaans is a dialect of Dutch, not English. No way off there.

Beyond that - Mandela realised, as you do not, that a person should not be judged by the colour of his skin, and you should not cling pointlessly to the past for the purpose of hating someone.


Mandela also realised that friends are to be judged on their actions. Hence he was actually rather fond of certain sections of the British people, who had backed him through decades of imprisonment. But apparently EasternKurdikus knows better than Mandela did, because Britain is to blame for everything.

Hint to EasternKurdikus: look up cricket. It's a rather significant part of the Mandela story.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Mandela also realised that friends are to be judged on their actions. Hence he was actually rather fond of certain sections of the British people, who had backed him through decades of imprisonment. But apparently EasternKurdikus knows better than Mandela did, because Britain is to blame for everything.

Hint to EasternKurdikus: look up cricket. It's a rather significant part of the Mandela story.

well thanks, no friend i dont mean BRITISH PEOPLE! i meant BRITISH EMPIRE! no government is REAL representative of its country (except like sweden & switzerland)!

i know its the british PEOPLE in the government, but power is different, yes i alwayse hate and criticize british imperialism, not me, anyone who really suffered their cruelty & injustice!

so CHEERS mate, i have no hate on British or American PEOPLE !:bow:
i just expect them more open minded and think more & deeply....

[Kadagar_AV]

well thanks, no friend i dont mean BRITISH PEOPLE! i meant BRITISH EMPIRE! no government is REAL representative of its country (except like sweden & switzerland)!

i know its the british PEOPLE in the government, but power is different, yes i alwayse hate and criticize british imperialism, not me, anyone who really suffered their cruelty & injustice!

so CHEERS mate, i have no hate on British or American PEOPLE !:bow:
i just expect them more open minded and think more & deeply....

That's how Sweden works? HURRY, you must tell the people and politicians, election is only a year away!!

[HoreTore]

\and you should not cling pointlessly to the past for the purpose of hating someone.

I feel that this is the essence of what Mandela stood for.

Mandela is one of the few, along with leaders such as Vaclav Havel, who, when given power in a revolution chose not to persecute the old regime, but instead seek reconciliation. In my opinion, that is a massive contribution to world history, and I hope we will see more of it. In addition to that, Mandela didn't offer just silence on the crimes of the old regime, like the Spanish did, but he instead sought the truth without punishment.

That is the reason I personally admire him. He was a proponent of seeking the truth for the sake of truth itself, not for punishment. I sincerely hope that this will eventually become the norm when a country moves from an oppressive to a free society.

I truly believe it is more important to establish the truth than it is to punish the perpetrators.

[Pannonian]

well thanks, no friend i dont mean BRITISH PEOPLE! i meant BRITISH EMPIRE! no government is REAL representative of its country (except like sweden & switzerland)!

i know its the british PEOPLE in the government, but power is different, yes i alwayse hate and criticize british imperialism, not me, anyone who really suffered their cruelty & injustice!

so CHEERS mate, i have no hate on British or American PEOPLE !:bow:
i just expect them more open minded and think more & deeply....

And you're trying to wriggle out of blaming Britain now that it's been pointed out to you that Mandela actually rather liked us. And FWIW, I'd like to see you explain just how the British Empire was to blame for his imprisonment.

The Anglos conquered the Boers after the 2nd Boer War, with the Union of South Africa set up after the political settlement was complete. The Union of South Africa was led by the following PMs during its existence.

Louis Botha (former Boer general)
Jan Smuts (former Boer general)
JBM Hertzog (former Boer general)
DF Malan (Afrikaner Nationalist)
JG Strijdom
HF Verwoerd (founder of Apartheid)

Verwoerd, the man who founded the Apartheid regime, was so much a part of the British Empire you profess to hate, that he pushed for and got complete independence from Britain, turning the Union of South Africa into the Republic of South Africa, thus cutting even the few remaining ties to Britain, in 1961. Mandela was sent to prison in 1964.

Yup, Britain is completely to blame for Mandela's imprisonment.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Mandela is one of the few, along with leaders such as Vaclav Havel, who, when given power in a revolution chose not to persecute the old regime, but instead seek reconciliation. In my opinion, that is a massive contribution to world history, and I hope we will see more of it. In addition to that, Mandela didn't offer just silence on the crimes of the old regime, like the Spanish did, but he instead sought the truth without punishment.Absolutely. Whatever condemnations may be laid at Mandela's feet, it is impossible not to count this to his credit. History is NOT replete with other such examples.

I have long been awed by the efforts of the USA's founding fathers, but must acknowledge that our treatment of the Loyalists in the USA following the Revolution was far harsher (no death marches or ethnic cleansing but pretty vicious and confiscatory) than the treatment of the Afrikaaners by the ANC under Mandela. After our own civil war, somebody murdered the one leader who really wanted to be conciliatory, so we ended up with the Reconstruction. Again, not a series of pogroms, but pretty harsh and mean. All in all, the ANC under Mandela did something pretty special.

My concerns regarding S.A. now center on what the ANC will do without their living legend and moral compass. Will they continue the path he blazed, lapse into just another kleptocracy as have so many African states, or will his absence allow those with violent grudges to wallow in gore. I am hopeful, but concerned.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

And you're trying to wriggle out of blaming Britain now that it's been pointed out to you that Mandela actually rather liked us. And FWIW, I'd like to see you explain just how the British Empire was to blame for his imprisonment.

The Anglos conquered the Boers after the 2nd Boer War, with the Union of South Africa set up after the political settlement was complete. The Union of South Africa was led by the following PMs during its existence.

Louis Botha (former Boer general)
Jan Smuts (former Boer general)
JBM Hertzog (former Boer general)
DF Malan (Afrikaner Nationalist)
JG Strijdom
HF Verwoerd (founder of Apartheid)

Verwoerd, the man who founded the Apartheid regime, was so much a part of the British Empire you profess to hate, that he pushed for and got complete independence from Britain, turning the Union of South Africa into the Republic of South Africa, thus cutting even the few remaining ties to Britain, in 1961. Mandela was sent to prison in 1964.

Yup, Britain is completely to blame for Mandela's imprisonment.

I wish you would stop posting via mobile device. It prevents me from adding my "thanks" to your posts -- which are usually worthy of such.

[Pannonian]

Absolutely. Whatever condemnations may be laid at Mandela's feet, it is impossible not to count this to his credit. History is NOT replete with other such examples.

I have long been awed by the efforts of the USA's founding fathers, but must acknowledge that our treatment of the Loyalists in the USA following the Revolution was far harsher (no death marches or ethnic cleansing but pretty vicious and confiscatory) than the treatment of the Afrikaaners by the ANC under Mandela. After our own civil war, somebody murdered the one leader who really wanted to be conciliatory, so we ended up with the Reconstruction. Again, not a series of pogroms, but pretty harsh and mean. All in all, the ANC under Mandela did something pretty special.

My concerns regarding S.A. now center on what the ANC will do without their living legend and moral compass. Will they continue the path he blazed, lapse into just another kleptocracy as have so many African states, or will his absence allow those with violent grudges to wallow in gore. I am hopeful, but concerned.

If anything bad happens to black-ruled South Africa, it won't have happened under Mandela's watch. It would never have happened under his watch.

[PanzerJaeger]

This is like linking to Hitler for evidence of Jewish crimes.

Do you dispute the information given on the page?

How you or anyone else can look at those charred bodies and mindlessly parrot the whitewashed propaganda that has been built up around this man is beyond me.

[Montmorency]

look at those charred bodies and mindlessly parrot the whitewashed propaganda that has been built up around this man is beyond me.

Why does it escape you that this is your very fault here?

[PanzerJaeger]

Never mind.

[Strike For The South]

I agree with meine lieble

I'll expand after my final, quite possibly after a responsible pub visit because Im an adult

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

well thanks, no friend i dont mean BRITISH PEOPLE! i meant BRITISH EMPIRE! no government is REAL representative of its country (except like sweden & switzerland)!

i know its the british PEOPLE in the government, but power is different, yes i alwayse hate and criticize british imperialism, not me, anyone who really suffered their cruelty & injustice!

so CHEERS mate, i have no hate on British or American PEOPLE !:bow:
i just expect them more open minded and think more & deeply....

The British Empire sent Mandela to university and gave him the vote - the Boer took that away from him.

Don't get me wrong, the British Empire has a lot to answer for - but the British Government tried to prevent Apartheid, and was certainly not responsible for what happened to Mandela.

[Empire*Of*Media]

The British Empire sent Mandela to university and gave him the vote - the Boer took that away from him.

Don't get me wrong, the British Empire has a lot to answer for - but the British Government tried to prevent Apartheid, and was certainly not responsible for what happened to Mandela.

thats exactly to say, we should not blame Stalin for all his executions and crimes, because someone else has done the order!!
im sorry but, pretty much bad Idea!

i dont know for europe, but the rest of the world that has been colony of the brits, and have suffered much that the post can not take the whole of it, have the experience of their so called GOODNESS & KINDNESS!! and thats why much of their past colonies are in very good situation!! Look Africa & India & Middle East and South East Asia!
at least USA have colonies but they spare a little to the colony! but Damn britain plundered and drained all of the coloies resources without giving them a bit! and anyone who stodd for, would be jailed or killed!
after all of this, still not blaming Government but its agents?!

[Brenus]

“after all, your in US army, i should not expect better that you” I can’t stop laughing. You do not read my post do you? You just see what you want to see, like a good fascist, Stalinist or other tenants of dictatorships you are.

“so dont think i cant defend against u in reality” That is not the real point. You can’t defend because you have no facts backing what you say. And the reason is because you just go for insults and denials. You never answer a point, you just telling that the points others mentioned are lies without supporting it with facts.

“im a dangerous person now” You are part of a dangerous system of mind, yes, shared by the Stalinist, the Fascist and the Nazi. You think that verbal attacks and insults is enough to win a debate. The problem is that in real life it is true. As the Hitlerian Brown Shirts sung once “the street belongs to those who take it”. It is your attitude in each of your interventions.

“all you Imperialists are like each other! all the world is bad and should be offensed but NOT YOURS! you are GOD! maybe upper than something like GOD!! no one should criticize you or he is CONSPIRACY THEORIST, Fascist ,Dictator ,liar and anything to cover your crimes!” There you go, swiping generalisation, personal attacks and insults. You would have thrived under Himmler or Beria.

“then you would post a thread like "Mandela, a nigger bastard that stopped and destroyed imperialistic colonization of south africa"!!” I would have? So now, you know what I would have posted. The fact, but don’t let fact go against you, a mistake that fascists/Nazi and Stalinists never allow anyway, is I didn’t. And I wouldn’t. Your lack of knowledge and control is amazing. You imagine what someone you don’t know would write and you write it. What those remind me? Ahhh, yes, the confessions forced by the Gestapo, KGB and others Stasi on interrogated prisoners.

“if it would not be Mandela or martin Luther king and revolts of black people, you still would be racist like 200 years UK & US has been and had black slaves like your beloved George Washington and British empire! no difference between Roman Empire in Wild ages with you so called democrat and modern!so please dont say the holy name of Mandela, for your tongue has the dirt of lies and hate and blood of innocent people!” Again, personal attack again someone you don’t know. I will give a clue. You link two separate facts and you assume a lot: I went in Iraq (Kurdistan) and I was in the Army. Theses two real facts but they are not linked. All your mental representation of me is based on wrong guesses so your hate speeches against me fall flat.
I suppose it is fun for all the others members of the org who read my posts how wrong your insults could go. Ok, I can’t resist that to show you how empty your hate rhetoric is: I am not American, or USAnian, nor British.:laugh4:

[HoreTore]

Do you dispute the information given on the page?

How you or anyone else can look at those charred bodies and mindlessly parrot the whitewashed propaganda that has been built up around this man is beyond me.

Yes, I do dispute the extremely limited text on that site.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Mandela seems like someone who was going to engage in violent terrorism, but figured out that verbal propaganda works much better, perhaps during his trial. You can much more easily get the support of the western countries that way. I have to say the "inspirational" quotes are pretty inane, “No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.” etc. It just seems like for whatever reason people have made him (with his help) into an icon or symbol of some spiritually redemptive story.


I have long been awed by the efforts of the USA's founding fathers, but must acknowledge that our treatment of the Loyalists in the USA following the Revolution was far harsher (no death marches or ethnic cleansing but pretty vicious and confiscatory) than the treatment of the Afrikaaners by the ANC under Mandela. After our own civil war, somebody murdered the one leader who really wanted to be conciliatory, so we ended up with the Reconstruction. Again, not a series of pogroms, but pretty harsh and mean. All in all, the ANC under Mandela did something pretty special.

alexander hamilton worked hard to defend the loyalists, and the confederate leadership was treated quite well. Considering how standards for that kind of thing have evolved over time I don't see why people are so impressed with mandela not turning out to be mugabe. The fact that there has been a lot of horrible vengeance doesn't make decent behavior saintly. I feel like in the normal course of events mandela and the ANC would be judged by how well they have governed the new south africa, and not by their rhetoric.

I don't mean to bash him, but he seems like gandhi or lincoln, one of those figures that gets built up all out of proportion, to the point that when people actually see that he was involved with terrorists at all they are shocked. The real things you would judge a person by get covered up.

[Pannonian]

The British Empire sent Mandela to university and gave him the vote - the Boer took that away from him.

Don't get me wrong, the British Empire has a lot to answer for - but the British Government tried to prevent Apartheid, and was certainly not responsible for what happened to Mandela.

Around the time Mandela was being sent to prison, Britain was honouring a black foreign citizen for his work against racism in Britain, knighting him, fast tracking him through the judicial qualifications system, and eventually making him a Peer of the Realm.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

thats exactly to say, we should not blame Stalin for all his executions and crimes, because someone else has done the order!!
im sorry but, pretty much bad Idea!

i dont know for europe, but the rest of the world that has been colony of the brits, and have suffered much that the post can not take the whole of it, have the experience of their so called GOODNESS & KINDNESS!! and thats why much of their past colonies are in very good situation!! Look Africa & India & Middle East and South East Asia!
at least USA have colonies but they spare a little to the colony! but Damn britain plundered and drained all of the coloies resources without giving them a bit! and anyone who stodd for, would be jailed or killed!
after all of this, still not blaming Government but its agents?!

No

The BRITISH Government was not responsible - the SOUTH AFRICAN Government was.

Like I said, under the British government Mandela went to university, passed the bar and had the vote - once Britain LEFT the Dutch Boers instituted Apartheid.

You're also factually incorrect - The British Empire never instituted a policy of extraction of resources - what they did was enforce trading monopolies that benefited British merchants, which the British Government then taxed IN BRITAIN.

You want to talk about former British Colonies?

India is the largest democracy on Earth.

Get a grip - read the actual laws the British government passed - or just read the wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa

Nobody's saying Britain was wonderful - but they were not responsible for Apartheid - SA has been self-governing since 1931.

[Empire*Of*Media]

“after all, your in US army, i should not expect better that you” I can’t stop laughing. ...............:

well here is not a place to stand against your insults and lies!

the interesting matter, is that all those things you accuse to me, its directly going to you, but i have forgot to tell it, or my bad english. anything, but you too (if we suppose i didnt!) brought facts! you only BOLD what you wish to offense! and did never replied to ALL of my texts! only your own lies or some bull shit from some imperialist British & American officers & soldiers and you call it HISTORY!! well, you know, i have an idea, go rewrite history, and say before the birth of GOD Humanitarian Imperialism (!!) of Britain & USA created human civilization! and make all of us relax not to debate with you anymore!

so....go one on your army's goal. Humanitarian KILLing and Plunder and putting shitt y lies in your own history books and nerve War!!
ah....another question....how many people did you beat ?! and more....how many people did you kill for your master?!


ah .......sorry people, i know this thread is not for this, but i cant stand ignorance and lie and hatred !

THE.......END of quarreling with Imperialist Killers.....

[HoreTore]

Brenus is French.

A Frenchman cannot serve in the US army.

[Pannonian]

Dang it, why did you have to spoil it? I was hoping for more words of wisdom from EasternKurdikus on why Brenus's American compatriots are colonising the world after dropping the BRITISH ATOM BOMBS on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

[Brenus]

“Brenus is French.” “Dang it”. Don’t worry; I suppose EasternKurdikus will find a way to turn it… He is full of imagination and has a fertile brain. I will be personally responsible for the Treaty of Lausanne (1923). It was nice to be qualified as a Imperialist Yankee. It was entertaining. Can't wait for him to adapt to see what are my crimes...

[Fisherking]

Brenus is French.

A Frenchman cannot serve in the US army.

Unless they have changed the rules recently, even you could serve.

[Pannonian]

“Brenus is French.” “Dang it”. Don’t worry; I suppose EasternKurdikus will find a way to turn it… He is full of imagination and has a fertile brain. I will be personally responsible for the Treaty of Lausanne (1923). It was nice to be qualified as a Imperialist Yankee. It was entertaining. Can't wait for him to adapt to see what are my crimes...

Didn't the French invade Cambodia during the 1970s? At around the same time when Mandela was rotting in a British prison.

"i cant imagine myself be in a Damn brutal BRITISH prison for 27 years, and then, after all suffers and tortures and insults those damn british imperialists did to him, for goddamn 27 years, and he forgive them all! he even did not insult his torturers!! " - EasternKurdikus on Nelson Mandela

[PanzerJaeger]

Is it still too early to discuss the gross mismanagement and rampant corruption that characterized his administration, or are we still in sanctification mode? What about Mandela's denial of anti-retrovirals to HIV positive pregnant women - pregnant women - one of the most heinous acts of evil committed by any post-war leader that ended hundreds of thousands of lives?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

... I don't mean to bash him, but he seems like gandhi or lincoln, one of those figures that gets built up all out of proportion, to the point that when people actually see that he was involved with terrorists at all they are shocked. The real things you would judge a person by get covered up.

That's a fair point. Like both of those others you mentioned, Mandela the icon is being distanced somewhat from Mandela the person. In my post above, I did start with a caveat that this was not the ONLY issue that defines Mandela's career -- though it is one aspect that I believe is worthy of much credit.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Is it still too early to discuss the gross mismanagement and rampant corruption that characterized his administration, or are we still in sanctification mode? What about Mandela's denial of anti-retrovirals to HIV positive pregnant women - pregnant women - one of the most heinous acts of evil committed by any post-war leader that ended hundreds of thousands of lives?

So long as you're also willing to discuss his complete about-face on the issue - in the context that the majority of governments had not got to grips with HIV in 1995

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/biographies/nelson-mandelas-mixed-legacy-on-hivaids/

"The most important thing he did was after his own presidency. He decided in 2001 that he was not going to be quiet about the etiology* of AIDS and the importance of treatment.

The fact that he stepped out and talked about this was enormously important. Before the opening of Parliament in 2002, he made a speech in giving his Health and Human Rights Award, which spoke about the importance of preventing mother-to-child (PMTC) transmission. This was at the very time that the Mbeki government was being dragged to court by the Treatment Action Campaign because it was refusing — on denialist grounds to give PMTC to mothers with HIV. So his intervention on that was crucially important.


President Mandela’s most decisive acts on stigma were fantastic. He donned the HIV Positive T-shirt in July 2002, and when he spoke about his own son, Matata Mandela, who died of AIDS. But those were later. And they were magnificent acts. All of that to his enormous credit. … Now just imagine if he had done comparable things seven years earlier."

You're confusing him with Mbeki - and they don't even look alike.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Is it still too early to discuss the gross mismanagement and rampant corruption that characterized his administration, or are we still in sanctification mode? What about Mandela's denial of anti-retrovirals to HIV positive pregnant women - pregnant women - one of the most heinous acts of evil committed by any post-war leader that ended hundreds of thousands of lives?

I'm not sure who was directly responsible for that:


Tshabalala-Msimang's administration as Minister of Health was controversial, because of her reluctance to adopt a public sector plan for treating AIDS with anti-retroviral medicines (ARVs). She was called Dr Beetroot for promoting the benefits of beetroot, garlic, lemons, beer, and African potatoes as well as good general nutrition, while referring to possible toxicities of AIDS medicines.[3] She was widely seen as following an AIDS policy in line with the ideas of South African President Thabo Mbeki, who for a time publicly expressed doubts about whether HIV caused AIDS.


"Science denial kills. More than 300,000 South Africans died needlessly in the early 2000s because the government of President Mbeki preferred to treat AIDS with garlic and beetroot rather than antiretroviral drugs (Chigwedere, Seage, Gruskin, Lee, & Essex,2008). "

But it does seem very out of place to me for people to reminisce with rose colored glasses, while there are such tremendous problems. Shouldn't they at least take the opportunity to criticize mandela's successors?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/07/world/africa/disappointment-in-successors-to-revered-father-of-a-nation.html?_r=0

the new york times takes that approach in this article at least.

[PanzerJaeger]

You're confusing him with Mbeki - and they don't even look alike.

Please educate (http://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/history-official-government-hivaids-policy-south-africa) yourself on the subject.


At the beginning of 1998, a battle for the provision of anti-retroviral drugs (ARVs) by the South African government that would last for much of the following decade began. South African AIDS activists and researchers alike called upon the government to distribute an ARV drug called Zidovudine (AZT) to pregnant women. However, all ANC-led provinces rejected the use of AZT, based primarily on claims that it was too expensive to distribute. Moreover, Health Minister Dlamini-Zuma openly opposed the drug, and asserted that the South African government’s policy was to focus on prevention rather than treatment. This argument seemed illogical to the Health Minister’s critics, however, as the drug has been shown to dramatically reduce HIV transmission from pregnant women to their unborn children.

Note that this was in 1998, not 1988. AIDS had been a known quantity for years at that point, and there was absolutely no excuse for the death sentence Mandela effectively issued to those children. He and the whole ANC cabal should have been sent back to prison. And yet today, those with only the slightest grasp of what Mandela actually did spout off a sanitized version of history that has no resemblance to reality in order to turn this villain into a hero. Your idolization is patently disgusting, but history does have a way of revisiting such characters, and I have no doubt the truth will emerge.

No matter how hard you would like to, you cannot separate Mandela from his administration's despicable and deadly handling of the AIDS epidemic. And the fact that it got so much worse under Mbeki only reinforces his culpability in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of the nation's most innocent and vulnerable children. Indeed, even after the extent of Mbeki's AIDS denialism was revealed, Mandela threw his full support (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Mandela-backs-Mbekis-2nd-term-not-on-Aids-20020404) behind him when he was in a unique position to end the senseless killing.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Please educate (http://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/history-official-government-hivaids-policy-south-africa) yourself on the subject.



Note that this was in 1998, not 1988. AIDS had been a known quantity for years at that point, and there was absolutely no excuse for the death sentence Mandela effectively issued to those children. He and the whole ANC cabal should have been sent back to prison. And yet today, those with only the slightest grasp of what Mandela actually did spout off a sanitized version of history that has no resemblance to reality in order to turn this villain into a hero. Your idolization is patently disgusting, but history does have a way of revisiting such characters, and I have no doubt the truth will emerge.

No matter how hard you would like to, you cannot separate Mandela from his administration's despicable and deadly handling of the AIDS epidemic. And the fact that it got so much worse under Mbeki only reinforces his culpability in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of the nation's most innocent and vulnerable children. Indeed, even after the extent of Mbeki's AIDS denialism was revealed, Mandela threw his full support (http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Mandela-backs-Mbekis-2nd-term-not-on-Aids-20020404) behind him when he was in a unique position to end the senseless killing.

...and then he recanted.

[Montmorency]

PJ, it's like you don't even read your sources or the posts in this thread.

Your pious moral fervor does you massive disservice and outs you as a hypocrite.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Interesting piece on the Mandela/British issue. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20716298)

You can't distance Britain entirely from the South Apartheid regime. Its mistreatment of both the Boers and the blacks created the foundations for Apartheid. And yet Mandela obviously had some sort of appreciation for British society/politics and the role in played in ending Apartheid.

Anyway, next point. Panzer. I share your sentiments about the early Mandela, I don't get the mindset of people that think it is OK to kill civilians, even if they are 'collateral'. But I think the criticisms of his tenure in office are a bit tame. I expect there were important reasons behind him backing Mbeki, and he made the fact that he didn't support his position on AIDS clear enough. At the end of the day he could have gone the way of Mugabe, instead he made a functioning country that is (for the most part) better for the majority of its people than it used to be. His legacy is largely positive.

[Brenus]

“Didn't the French invade Cambodia during the 1970s? At around the same time when Mandela was rotting in a British prison.” No. The French protected Cambodia (the French NEVER invade) from the greedy imperialism of the Siam, today Thailand, in 1867.
But this shouldn’t stop you to link this with Mandela’s treatment in the hands of the British.

[Empire*Of*Media]

Didn't the French invade Cambodia during the 1970s? At around the same time when Mandela was rotting in a British prison.
"i cant imagine myself be in a Damn brutal BRITISH prison for 27 years, and then, after all suffers and tortures and insults those damn british imperialists did to him, for goddamn 27 years, and he forgive them all! he even did not insult his torturers!! " - EasternKurdikus on Nelson Mandela

Pannonian is that you?!! i mean really you!
at last you revealed your wisdom!..............
why you were silence in all these times ?!

oh my god i found an open minded and wise man here at last! (with some....)

Dang it, why did you have to spoil it? I was hoping for more words of wisdom from EasternKurdikus on why Brenus's American compatriots are colonising the world after dropping the BRITISH ATOM BOMBS on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
yes i said too many times in many threads but there was no one to see and imperialist brenus could offense and lie about all! were were you?!

if Nazis would do that, they would create billions of videos and movies and documentaries about it and would say that how much devil they were. but why the world didnt/doesnt care?! because its the GOOD devil Imperialism!! all the world is bad EXCEPT them!! they are god and if they do devil things....they cover it or ..... simply doesnt matter!!
thats what im angry about!

anyway french or usa.....french NATO its not different with US army. all working together for their Imperialistic purposes to finish The NEW WORLD ORDER !


Didn't the French invade Cambodia during the 1970s? At around the same time when Mandela was rotting in a British prison.
ah! you forgot one as i did! you missed the FRENCH COLONIZATION & INVASIONS IN VIETNAM from 1880s to 1950s when Brave VietKong Guerillas ****ed superpower colonizer France despite huge aids from dear Devil USA & Britain!!

well again we didnt mention Terror of Martin Luther King & Kennedy !
we didnt mention German Cleansing & Genocide of 11 million german poor civilians and forcible migration and transplant them immediately after WW2 by the Allies!
the coupe of removing MOSSADEQ in 1953 for destroying democracy in Iran for their own wishes..... and remove the Shah as well in 1970s because he wanted to NOT SELL OIL CHEAP to USA & BRITAIN! and bring an Islamist fundamentalist! (then after Khomeini turned back from his master........!)
mass kilings in Rwanda led by CIA
killing of frredom fighters in Bolivia including Che Guevara
Colonization and dictatorship in India by the Brits
awfffffff!! should i say more?!! Oh my god this was just some bit titles of their Crimes and Colonizations and taking the world as great Imperialists of the history of mankind!
Pannonian or anyone....your turn!! (sorry for my bad English!)


!! but after all.... history is WRITTEN by the VICTOR !!

[PanzerJaeger]

...and then he recanted.

As with those innocents murdered during his terrorist campaign, Mandela's regret came far too late to help his many victims. It is at least comforting to think that he was haunted in his final years by the lives he destroyed.



PJ, it's like you don't even read your sources or the posts in this thread.

Your pious moral fervor does you massive disservice and outs you as a hypocrite.

So far in this thread I have put forward two examples of Mandela's actions costing the lives of thousands of innocent people - many of them children. Both examples are well documented and support my position that a man who has left such a body count in his wake should certainly not be celebrated as a man of peace. You'll have to explain how any of that makes me a hypocrite.


But I think the criticisms of his tenure in office are a bit tame. I expect there were important reasons behind him backing Mbeki, and he made the fact that he didn't support his position on AIDS clear enough.

There was no issue more important in South Africa in 1998 and 2002 - more literally life and death - than the government's response to the AIDS epidemic. When in power, Mandela denied anti-retrovirals to those suffering from the disease. Out of office, he threw his full support behind the world's foremost denialist. A coward would have stayed silent during the election, a hero would have stood up to Mbeki in spite of any party loyalty to the ANC. It took a particularly sadistic vein of thoughtless indifference on Mandela's part to support him after witnessing the horror AIDS had wrought in his country and Mbeki's response. It still astounds me how little understanding most in the Western world really have of what AIDS has done to Africa. To actively resist proven treatments and support those who do in favor of witch doctor concoctions that clearly do not work is pure evil.


At the end of the day he could have gone the way of Mugabe, instead he made a functioning country that is (for the most part) better for the majority of its people than it used to be. His legacy is largely positive.

This is the biggest fallacy of all. I wish people would actually read and understand the history of the period. Mandela's rise to power had little to do with the success of his movement, which posed little real threat to the apartheid state institutions, but was instead due to crisis of conscience within the white power establishment. It was only with their consent that he ascended to power, and they certainly would not have allowed him to go the way of Mugabe. Mandela took the only option available to him; any violence directed toward whites would have surely ushered in the return to the apartheid state with a vengeance.

[Montmorency]

So far in this thread I have put forward two examples of Mandela's actions costing the lives of thousands of innocent people - many of them children. Both examples are well documented and support my position that a man who has left such a body count in his wake should certainly not be celebrated as a man of peace.

He should be acknowledged as a strong leader. All strong leaders have left high body counts. A body count points nowhere in itself.


You'll have to explain how any of that makes me a hypocrite.

Well, I do acknowledge that your broader worldview might have shifted by now, but I doubt it has.

[gaelic cowboy]

This is the biggest fallacy of all. I wish people would actually read and understand the history of the period. Mandela's rise to power had little to do with the success of his movement, which posed little real threat to the apartheid state institutions, but was instead due to crisis of conscience within the white power establishment. It was only with their consent that he ascended to power, and they certainly would not have allowed him to go the way of Mugabe. Mandela took the only option available to him; any violence directed toward whites would have surely ushered in the return to the apartheid state with a vengeance.


So what PJ, even if your statement is lies or truth it's still a fact South Africa is/was better for having him as president.

[Noncommunist]

This is the biggest fallacy of all. I wish people would actually read and understand the history of the period. Mandela's rise to power had little to do with the success of his movement, which posed little real threat to the apartheid state institutions, but was instead due to crisis of conscience within the white power establishment. It was only with their consent that he ascended to power, and they certainly would not have allowed him to go the way of Mugabe. Mandela took the only option available to him; any violence directed toward whites would have surely ushered in the return to the apartheid state with a vengeance.

I've read that the whites were concerned that apartheid would not have survived for much longer and simply wanted to let it down more softly than if it were to continue to its bitter end.



mass kilings in Rwanda led by CIA

What? While Belgian colonization may have fostered the differences that separated the tutsis and hutus and the west can be faulted for its indifference to genocide when black people die, I'm not seeing where the CIA is involved in perpetrating the genocide.

[Strike For The South]

Ok this is bulldung. How is Saski going to drop in for the first time in months and take all the wind out of my sails?

[Brenus]

“ah! you forgot one as i did! you missed the FRENCH COLONIZATION & INVASIONS IN VIETNAM from 1880s to 1950s when Brave VietKong Guerillas ****ed superpower colonizer France despite huge aids from dear Devil USA & Britain!!” :laugh4:, you didn't forget, you just miss the fact I was not a citizen of the USA. You pretend to do research and know things (the TRUTH) when it is obvious you were not even able to see facts just under your nose. You were so hasty in insulting that you didn't even care of facts. But, it how fascist-nazi and stalinist kind of mind works.:deal2:
Come on, you can do better than that… France had 2 Colonial Empires periods. A little bit of research, man…

And because I just think of it, you, Kurds, were the spear head of Empire enslaving populations during Centuries. Can we expect some apologies for your part in this shameful activity? Ok, you get you asses kicked by brave Ottomans Soldiers, but you served well in their ranks.

[Pannonian]

What? While Belgian colonization may have fostered the differences that separated the tutsis and hutus and the west can be faulted for its indifference to genocide when black people die, I'm not seeing where the CIA is involved in perpetrating the genocide.

The CIA carried out the Rwandan genocide after concluding there was a threat, from the evidence tortured out of Mandela in a British prison. Brenus was one of those CIA agents during his time in the US Army.

[Brenus]

"Brenus was one of those CIA agents during his time in the US Army." Sub-contracted by the FSB and the Mossad, with the agreement of the Shin-Bet.

[Fragony]

Panzer knows what he is talking about as usual. The Boers should just come back to the Netherlands where they belong, this is going to get ugly. Let the ANC have their Zimbabwe 2.0, have a nice starvation, and please deal with it yourself, good luck and godspeed.

[The Stranger]

nope, the Netherlands are full. They can stay where they are or be confined into camps we created after their example.

[Fragony]

nope, the Netherlands are full. They can stay where they are or be confined into camps we created after their example.

It were the English who build the concentration-camps TS, it were the Dutch who were put into them during the Boer-wars.

Which wasn't very nice of them.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sUFMjpccvrQ

[Brenus]

After 400 years in a in a different country, the Boers are still Dutch? If I would say this, let's be in France, about the 3rd Generation of Immigrants it would be considered rightly as racism. So, roughly, what you are saying is that the whites in Africa are still Europeans but the Black in European are full citizens. Strange...

[Fragony]

After 400 years in a in a different country, the Boers are still Dutch? If I would say this, let's be in France, about the 3rd Generation of Immigrants it would be considered rightly as racism. So, roughly, what you are saying is that the whites in Africa are still Europeans but the Black in European are full citizens. Strange...

Ok make that Dutch immigrants. But they are still connected to us, that doesn't change. We share the same bloodlines, and while Afrikaner is dutch merged with Swahili we also share a language, they are still Dutch to me. I really don't care what someone considers to be racist, I know myself too good for caring about such perceptions.

Secondary reason, I want to be able to lay claim on Candice Swanenpoel http://hollywoodneuz.com/candice-swanepoel-profile-biography-pictures-news/

Needs a lot of Dutch lack of cuisine to put her into shape though, too skinny.

[Rhyfelwyr]

There was no issue more important in South Africa in 1998 and 2002 - more literally life and death - than the government's response to the AIDS epidemic. When in power, Mandela denied anti-retrovirals to those suffering from the disease. Out of office, he threw his full support behind the world's foremost denialist. A coward would have stayed silent during the election, a hero would have stood up to Mbeki in spite of any party loyalty to the ANC. It took a particularly sadistic vein of thoughtless indifference on Mandela's part to support him after witnessing the horror AIDS had wrought in his country and Mbeki's response. It still astounds me how little understanding most in the Western world really have of what AIDS has done to Africa. To actively resist proven treatments and support those who do in favor of witch doctor concoctions that clearly do not work is pure evil.

Well I read an good piece (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-10529266) on this very issue today. It would seem that Mandela's errors on the AIDS issue stemmed more from ignorance than malice, and in time he came to play a big role in tacking tabboos about AIDS in South African society. I wouldn't underestimate the levels of ignorance about AIDS even with well educated Africans - look at President "I'll just wash it off in the shower" Zuma.


This is the biggest fallacy of all. I wish people would actually read and understand the history of the period. Mandela's rise to power had little to do with the success of his movement, which posed little real threat to the apartheid state institutions, but was instead due to crisis of conscience within the white power establishment. It was only with their consent that he ascended to power, and they certainly would not have allowed him to go the way of Mugabe. Mandela took the only option available to him; any violence directed toward whites would have surely ushered in the return to the apartheid state with a vengeance.

And? White people once stood singing to celebrate the inauguration of Mugabe. The white establishment didn't release Mandela out of the goodness of their hearts. Certainly, the way I understand it, SA had become competely internationally isolated because of his imprisonment and the Apartheid issue. It was just no longer acceptable in the global community. Mandela chose to work with the white establishment, with white civil society, to keep the country functional. That sort of cooperation is a two way street.

[HoreTore]

Afrikaner is dutch merged with Swahili

Here Frags (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans), have some education. Free of charge!

[Fragony]

Here Frags (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaans), have some education. Free of charge!

First of all it's 'afrikaner' so that wiki page already failed there. Yes it has many influences, history and all that. There are over 30 active languages/dialects in South-Africa. It's a complicated place. The Boers speak a mixture of Dutch and Swahili.

Charging you, want compensation.

[The Stranger]

It were the English who build the concentration-camps TS, it were the Dutch who were put into them during the Boer-wars.

Which wasn't very nice of them.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sUFMjpccvrQ

i know that.

and the netherlands isnt actually full. it was never meant to be accurate.

[Fragony]

i know that.

and the netherlands isnt actually full. it was never meant to be accurate.

Not that far off though, camp Vught that was later used for transportations by the Germans was build because queen Wilhelmina thought jewish refugees from Germany were awfully close to one of her palaces, inconceivable, the nerve, fleeing for your life and being that close to her comfortable bliss doing so. So our highness build them accomendations before she fled and stole a good part of the gold in our treasury, and got her plumb ass kill a good lot of Brittish soldiers because she had forgot her diamonds.

[HoreTore]

First of all it's 'afrikaner' so that wiki page already failed there. Yes it has many influences, history and all that. There are over 30 active languages/dialects in South-Africa. It's a complicated place. The Boers speak a mixture of Dutch and Swahili.

Charging you, want compensation.

Swahili is way up north and to the east. The African languages spoken in SA and its neighbors are Khoisa and Bantu(and related), not Swahili.

Anyway, care to share some phrases/words afrikaans and swahili have in common?

[Fragony]

Swahili is way up north and to the east. The African languages spoken in SA and its neighbors are Khoisa and Bantu(and related), not Swahili.

Anyway, care to share some phrases/words afrikaans and swahili have in common?

It's Afrikaner. No I wouldn't, I don't speak Swahili. But my former neighbours at my mom's are South-African and they both speak Swahili, depends on the region I guess. I don't know enough about the place to answer your question. It doesn't come directly from me I am just parroting what I heard from them.

[Kralizec]

The Boers should just come back to the Netherlands where they belong

Wot?

Their language maybe similar, but it's not Dutch - and arguably, the similarity between the two would make it harder for them to adapt to Dutch. There are almost 3 million people of Afrikaner descent - if even 10% of them came over here within a short period, that would cause all sorts of problems.

Are you serious?

[HoreTore]

It's Afrikaner. No I wouldn't, I don't speak Swahili. But my former neighbours at my mom's are South-African and they both speak Swahihi, depends on the region I guess. I don't know enough about the place to answer your question. It doesn't come directly from me I am just parroting what I heard from them.

Both Afrikaans and Swahili are languages who are big on borrowing words and phrases from other languages, so that may be the cause of your confusion. Other than that, there's no link between the two languages.

And my language is called norsk, but when I write in an English forum, I refer to it as Norwegian ~;)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ok this is bullshit. How is Saski going to drop in for the first time in months and take all the wind out of my sails?

It is Kojiro-san's way. It is not for us to doubt the way, only to acknowledge our unwisdom and learn.

[Fragony]

Wot?

Their language maybe similar, but it's not Dutch - and arguably, the similarity between the two would make it harder for them to adapt to Dutch. There are almost 3 million people of Afrikaner descent. There are almost 3 million people of Afrikaner descent - if even 10% of them came over here within a short period, that would cause all sorts of problems.

Are you serious?

Afrikaners living in armed compounds can handle themselves just fine, but we should be open for the people who are basicly being hunted down. Better cause than giving 150 million (with 175 million on tops) to the genocidal government of Sudan.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

“ah! you forgot one as i did! you missed the FRENCH COLONIZATION & INVASIONS IN VIETNAM from 1880s to 1950s when Brave VietKong Guerillas ****ed superpower colonizer France despite huge aids from dear Devil USA & Britain!!” :laugh4:, you didn't forget, you just miss the fact I was not a citizen of the USA. You pretend to do research and know things (the TRUTH) when it is obvious you were not even able to see facts just under your nose. You were so hasty in insulting that you didn't even care of facts. But, it how fascist-nazi and stalinist kind of mind works.:deal2:
Come on, you can do better than that… France had 2 Colonial Empires periods. A little bit of research, man…

And because I just think of it, you, Kurds, were the spear head of Empire enslaving populations during Centuries. Can we expect some apologies for your part in this shameful activity? Ok, you get you asses kicked by brave Ottomans Soldiers, but you served well in their ranks.

I wondered about that highlighted line when I first read it. What I've read has suggested that U.S. aid to France in Indochina was haphazard at best and poorly coordinated along with being far less substantial than it could have been. British "aid" consisted of two rifle companies in Saigon for 3 weeks following the surrender of Japan and prior to Leclerc showing up. Not to take away anything from the bravery of the Viet Cong (that would be an entirely different subject for discussion), but they faced France during a time frame when France was in turmoil politically and economically and, in the case of Indochina, largely on its own.

[PanzerJaeger]

I understand and respect the tradition, but tradition for tradition's sake is not always the best course of action. RIP threads have always amounted to little more than spam. Worse, they tend to stifle real discussion surrounding the legacy of the subject. I guarantee that when you reopen the Mandela thread you split from this one on the 15th, if you even bother to remember to do so, it will get very little if any responses. I was not thinking about Mandela before his death, and I probably won't be thinking very much about him in a week. Now is when people are thinking about the man and his life, now is when historians and pundits are weighing in on his legacy, and now is when we should be allowed to do the same. Many of you may not agree with my opinion on Mandela, but my responses did generate meaningful and insightful discussion and rebuttals. Such discussions are the true reason the Backroom is one of the fine wines of the internet, under-appreciated by the masses but very appealing to those with sophisticated and discriminating intellectual tastes - not meaningless traditions and self censorship.

[Montmorency]

The simple solution is to just operate as a hit-squad and kill whomever we have been discussing before they can die of their own accord. (Nothing's classier than paying respects to the man you've just killed, BTW)

That should cover all the bases.

[Beskar]

Thread unlocked.

[Ironside]

I'll simply point out that the two major things Mandela did get critised for, was the poor initial response towards the HIV-epedemic and that supporting the ANC was a carte blanche towards any later misdeeds (say like Mugabe). And that the presidents that've followed aren't exactly great.

That was in the newspapers.

That the don't speak much about the voilent past of ANC is more mixed. One part is indeed don't smolder the name. One is not to go into the complexities of it. One is that it was before what made him great. One is that saying that being part of the partially violent unrest that forces a change and succeed with it, isn't exactly a message you want out as some kind of truth (even if it does work in some situations).

[Major Robert Dump]

I heard he was an excellent baker

[Fragony]

Tiring argument that

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Tiring argument that

About his baking?

[Fragony]

About his baking?

Well kinda, a burning tire around ones neck kinda bakes them

[HoreTore]

That the don't speak much about the voilent past of ANC is more mixed. One part is indeed don't smolder the name. One is not to go into the complexities of it. One is that it was before what made him great. One is that saying that being part of the partially violent unrest that forces a change and succeed with it, isn't exactly a message you want out as some kind of truth (even if it does work in some situations).

Where is this world where nobody talks about violent resistance to the Apartheid regime...?

And where is the world where the never-ending screw-ups of the current SA-regime are kept secret?

[Ironside]

Where is this world where nobody talks about violent resistance to the Apartheid regime...?

And where is the world where the never-ending screw-ups of the current SA-regime are kept secret?

I never said that the current screw-ups aren't talked about. I said the opposite.

I haven't seen the media I've red taking up Mandela's involvence in Umkhonto we Sizwe, but then I didn't read all Swedish media either. But it's not exactly a hidden secret. They did mention that ANC was internationally classified as a terrorist organisation.

[HoreTore]

I never said that the current screw-ups aren't talked about. I said the opposite.

I haven't seen the media I've red taking up Mandela's involvence in Umkhonto we Sizwe, but then I didn't read all Swedish media either. But it's not exactly a hidden secret. They did mention that ANC was internationally classified as a terrorist organisation.

My second sentence wasn't directed at you, but at "the thread"... I didn't find a way to communicate in a non-confusing manner, sorry.

Anyway, I don't believe I have ever read a piece on the African independence movements of the 50's, 60's and 70's who tried to "conceal" the violence associated with it. The African revolutions were very violent as a rule, both towards the colonial power and then within the movement. Mandela in the 90's was the exception when he decided not to punish the old regime, which is the reason he is admired.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well kinda, a burning tire around ones neck kinda bakes them

I thought that had been patented by the Duvaliers!

[Noncommunist]

My second sentence wasn't directed at you, but at "the thread"... I didn't find a way to communicate in a non-confusing manner, sorry.

Anyway, I don't believe I have ever read a piece on the African independence movements of the 50's, 60's and 70's who tried to "conceal" the violence associated with it. The African revolutions were very violent as a rule, both towards the colonial power and then within the movement. Mandela in the 90's was the exception when he decided not to punish the old regime, which is the reason he is admired.

Or most revolutions/independence movements for that matter. George Washington certainly wasn't a pacifist nor Robespierre or Lenin.