K,here we go-mounted spears and swords...

[Michael the Great]

If carried by infantry the spear has a defensice function no doubt,and swords r more offensive.
But,when mounted,I think swords and spears have different functions.
What do u think? What stats should cav with spears have? and what stats should cav with swords??
I generally think,that cav with spears should regullary have a better defensive strength,while mounted swords should have higher mellee(of course,defence depends on how much armor the unit has...).
One thing in this is sure,cav with lances have a much better charge...
But still,trying to stab someone with a lance on top of a moving horse doesn't sound too offensive...
A sword has a much better angle of attack,making it easier 2 cut the enemy 2 pieces.

Btw,can someone plz post the stats for Kataphraktoi,as I see that they r extremly good in melee,and they have a lance...
And I just can't understand how Chivalric Knights get 8 charge when they have a shield,so they hold their lance with only one hand...

------------------
Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.

[Cardinal]

Try this one for size:

Cavalry charge with their lances. Once in melee, throw away lance and wield battle axe, sword, mace......

OK, the graphics are not quite there yet, but with a little imagination...

[Michael the Great]

I actually think this could be done in the game.
They should just skip the animations of droping/swaping weapons,just get on to combat with swords after charging with lances...

[Cardinal]

This would however leave us with one problem. You would only be alowed one charge (with lance). They could however the pick up new lances once out of harms way, but this would complicate things in the animation, and for the AI to understand when you should pick up new lances. Then there is the last problem of deciding how many lances your knights have brought to battle, and if they actually used theirs at all during the last charge??
Why not just keep it simple??

[AgentBif]

Quote Originally posted by Cardinal:
This would however leave us with one problem. You would only be alowed one charge (with lance). They could however the pick up new lances once out of harms way, but this would complicate things in the animation, and for the AI to understand when you should pick up new lances. Then there is the last problem of deciding how many lances your knights have brought to battle, and if they actually used theirs at all during the last charge??
Why not just keep it simple??

[/QUOTE]

Actually, this is the way it worked in reality... once a lance was expended in a charge, the knight became a melee guy. If you score a hit with a lance, either the lance breaks or you have to drop it. And once enmeshed in melee, the cavalryman must drop the lance and draw a suitable weapon.

In a multistage battle, it might be feasible for cavalry to return to their squires and obtain new lances. But generally, it would be realistic if each knight could only charge (and hit) once.

The software could track this sort of thing and it should be clear visually whether or not your knights still had some lances left... Those who do not score a charging hit and do not engage in melee on the first charge would likely still have one, they could then cycle to the front of the formation.

bif

[Dionysus9]

Quote Originally posted by AgentBif:
. . . Those who do not score a charging hit and do not engage in melee on the first charge would likely still have one, they could then cycle to the front of the formation.
bif
[/QUOTE]

Damn, Bif, you are full of all kinds of good ideas today. I'd love to see that level of realism.

I guess, ideally (from the Knight's perspective), you'd hit your mark with the lance and then draw your melee weapon as the enemy unit breaks into a rout. Chase 'em for awhile with mace/sword and take a few more heads.

I really like the idea of tracking which men in the unit have lances and which dont. The game-engine could either cycle them to the back of the unit or just pass all the lances up to the front rank.

What I really REALLY would like to see is a seperation of the steed and rider for combat purposes. It would be truly awesome to watch a unit of knights charge some spears and see half of their steeds get killed in the initial impact....see the now foot-knights hop up off the ground and engage on foot.

When that encounter has been resolved maybe half the unit will be without a steed-- this is the real problem-- but there are many creative solutions. For example, riders could "double up" with a slower movement rate overall. Or you could split off the foot-knights into a seperate unit. Or you could order the remaining knights with steeds to dismount. etc. etc.

After a few more iterations the TW series is going to kick some SERIOUS arse.




------------------
Bacchus
----
In the end times, there will be rumors of a patch-- but none shall come. And there shall be a great wailing and gnashing of teeth across the lands. And still no patch shall come. And the poor suckers will start eating their children out of frustrated desperation. And yet-- no patch shall come. Alas the end of days shall be dark and horrible.

[sbreden]

eventually i hope that the combat because so realistic that it appears nearly chaotic.

[Michael the Great]

Well,in fact,I asked if mounted spears should still have a higher defence factor?
And monuted swords should still have a higher melee?
Or does the fact that being mounted,change all these??

[Cardinal]

Quote Originally posted by Michael the Great:
Well,in fact,I asked if mounted spears should still have a higher defence factor?
And monuted swords should still have a higher melee?
Or does the fact that being mounted,change all these??[/QUOTE]


Probably. What is the point of defensive factors for mounted warriors? When defending you usually stand your ground and hold formation. These are probably the two most important factors of defence in a battlefield (let us just leave physical cover out of the equation). Cavalry have neither. Scare the horses and the cavalry collapses. I believe you get some hight advantage when mounted, but a mounted warrior in a melee is truely handicapped once his momentum is lost. I guess that a big warhorse could create some havoc bulldozing its way thought the fray.

Anyway, to conlude, I think that being mounted is all that counts in the defence stats, and that the defensive factors should be calculated from the probability of retaining momentum and initiative, and not weapons.

[This message has been edited by Cardinal (edited 11-02-2002).]

[andrewt]

Quote Originally posted by AgentBif:
The software could track this sort of thing and it should be clear visually whether or not your knights still had some lances left... Those who do not score a charging hit and do not engage in melee on the first charge would likely still have one, they could then cycle to the front of the formation.

bif

[/QUOTE]

You don't know that the software could actually do that unless you have firsthand experience with the game engine. I know from experience with other games that developers can't add seemingly easy stuff if the engine was not programmed to do it.

Blizzard had to scrap Warcraft2's engine for Starcraft and Starcraft's for Warcraft3. They reused Diablo's engine for Diablo2 and it caused a lot of problems because of the new stuff they implemented. Bioware also had to create a new engine for Neverwinter Nights because the Infinity engine was already limited. In Medieval, they couldn't add moving from one siege engine to another because of engine limitations.

Creating a new engine usually takes at least a year, not to mention they have to start from scratch after that.

[AgentBif]

Quote Originally posted by andrewt:
You don't know that the software could actually do that unless you have firsthand experience with the game engine.[/QUOTE]

I seem to recall the manual saying that it tracked valor on a per-man basis. Also, each man in the formation has a health rating, I believe. If these are both true, then a suitable data infrastructure already exists for tracking per-man info; So the above feature may well be a reasonably easy thing to implement.

BTW, when certain software mods are considered infeasible, it's not a matter of "can't" but "cannot afford" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

bif

[AgentBif]

Quote Originally posted by Dionysus9:
What I really REALLY would like to see is a seperation of the steed and rider for combat purposes. It would be truly awesome to watch a unit of knights charge some spears and see half of their steeds get killed in the initial impact....see the now foot-knights hop up off the ground and engage on foot.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, this would be pretty cool! It would help cavalry units out in melee, because often the loss of horse does not cause immediate loss of the man. I recall one account (in the forum here?) of a battle involving a knightly charge that was eventually repulsed... They apparently suffered 50% loss of horse and 10% loss of men.

There are difficulties that I suppose CA wanted to avoid, but it seems to me it would be fairly easily solved this way:

The horseless men form their own unit which exists only on the battlefield. When the battle ends, these men regain their mounts and rejoin the original unit.

But then there's the problem where the interface only allows 16 units per side. My solution would be: Redisign the interface to support an arbitrary number of units!

This will be a feature of MTW2 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

bif

[Michael the Great]

Cardinal,

The defence factor depends more on the armor and shield.
But I think that a mounted man has a great height advantage over a..let's say..a man at arms,wich adds to the melee factor.
But,should the lance cavalry have generally a higher defence factor then melee factor?
And should sword cavalry have a higher melee than lance cav?
One thing is certain,lances have a much greater charge than swords...
And I just can't figure why Chivalric Knights have such a high charge when they carry a shield too,and so r forced to carry the lance with only one hand...

------------------
Io,Mihai-Voda,din mila lui Dumnezeu,domn al Tarii Romanesti,Tarii Ardealului si a toata tara Moldovei.

[Kraxis]

Quote Originally posted by Michael the Great:
And I just can't figure why Chivalric Knights have such a high charge when they carry a shield too,and so r forced to carry the lance with only one hand...

[/QUOTE]

Maybe because it is the couched lance... it is a onehand weapon, or rather a one arm weapon. The way the lance was used made sure a lot of the force induced into the lance went into the body of the knight and through the saddle into the horse. He did not need two hands on the lance.
Go take a look at some jousting-reenactors... onehanded couched lances.

I don't know if lanced cavalry should have better defense, but they certainly should have better charge. As said earlier they dropped the lance after the charge and fought with whatever shortrange weapon they had along. So lancecavalry is just swordcavalry with a good charge. Just look at the Templars vs the other orders.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you!

[Michael the Great]

Quote Originally posted by Kraxis:
Maybe because it is the couched lance... it is a onehand weapon, or rather a one arm weapon. The way the lance was used made sure a lot of the force induced into the lance went into the body of the knight and through the saddle into the horse. He did not need two hands on the lance.
Go take a look at some jousting-reenactors... onehanded couched lances.

I don't know if lanced cavalry should have better defense, but they certainly should have better charge. As said earlier they dropped the lance after the charge and fought with whatever shortrange weapon they had along. So lancecavalry is just swordcavalry with a good charge. Just look at the Templars vs the other orders.
[/QUOTE]

Yes,but we are talking strictly about game terms.
In fact,I think there is a very low posibillit of us seeing knights charging with lances and then take swords...and just how many times should they charge..until there lances break?
What I know,is that a lance isn't quite as long as a pike,but still longer than a spear.
If you have a pike,the enemy can go beyond youre pike's tip,and then u r doomed...,but,if you're on a horse,no one can go beyond youre lances' tip,coz u ain't on the ground.
Having the height advantage a horse offers,and the range given by a lance,i think lance cavalry,in general,should have a quite good attack rating.
The defence is somethin different,I think what counts more here,is how much armor u and ur horse wear,rather than the weapon u r fighting with...,but of course,the extended range the lance gives you might help defend better,but u can't really say u'r 100% certain u can defend on a horse,coz u gotta protect ur self(above all),and youre horse too.
Cavalry,in general,were used because of their speed,capabilty to wear much more armor than infantry so a much bigger charge,and,of course,of that great height advantage that being mounted gives...
Cavalry were not used to defend,so,defending on a horse is something relative...
But what about sword cav,should they have better mellee above all?
I tend 2 believe,u can much better slash at the enemy with a sword than a lance, being mounted...

[Lord Krazy]

MTG,
With regards to what you can and can't do with
cavalry using two weapons on a graphic level.
I believe this topic was well covered in the
modding forum.

The engine can not be changed of course
but many things can be done.
I have posted a mod for the demo
and for version 1.00
that allows certain knights to
fight with a sword after they charge
it's not great but it's an example of how
things can altered for different effects.


I find that the people posting to
the modding forum are often modders.
These peopel have some first hand
expierance with such things.
So if want to discuss the reality
of it all and why it is so,
then you are in the right place:)

However if you want to know
about how to change, or if it
is possible, to change these things,
then you should go to the
Dungeon(modding\patches\and smart arses:forum) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

To me this thread seems to contain a bit of both
and I'm not sure if understand you correctly.
So please forgive me if I missed the point:)

regards,
LK

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (Lord Krazy @ Nov. 08 2002,20:59)]MTG,
With regards to what you can and can't do with
cavalry using two weapons on a graphic level.
I believe this topic was well covered in the
modding forum.

The engine can not be changed of course
but many things can be done.
I have posted a mod for the demo
and for version 1.00
that allows certain knights to
fight with a sword after they charge
it's not great but it's an example of how
things can altered for different effects.


I find that the people posting to
the modding forum are often modders.
These peopel have some first hand
expierance with such things.
So if want to discuss the reality
of it all and why it is so,
then you are in the right place:)

However if you want to know
about how to change, or if it
is possible, to change these things,
then you should go to the
Dungeon(modding\patches\and smart arses:forum) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

To me this thread seems to contain a bit of both
and I'm not sure if understand you correctly.
So please forgive me if I missed the point:)

regards,
LK
Lk,


I much appreciate youre sugestion,and I will go 2 the modding forum.
2 b honest,I didn't really want this thread to have anything about cav charging with lances and switching to swords,I just wondered on how the stats for cav with lances and swords should be...
Luckely someone just brought this up... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Thx,I'll check the modding forum right away

Best Regards

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 03 2002,17:04)]
Quote[/b] ]Originally posted by Michael the Great:
And I just can't figure why Chivalric Knights have such a high charge when they carry a shield too,and so r forced to carry the lance with only one hand...



Maybe because it is the couched lance... it is a onehand weapon, or rather a one arm weapon. The way the lance was used made sure a lot of the force induced into the lance went into the body of the knight and through the saddle into the horse. He did not need two hands on the lance.
Go take a look at some jousting-reenactors... onehanded couched lances.

I don't know if lanced cavalry should have better defense, but they certainly should have better charge. As said earlier they dropped the lance after the charge and fought with whatever shortrange weapon they had along. So lancecavalry is just swordcavalry with a good charge. Just look at the Templars vs the other orders.

------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.

You may not care about war, but war cares about you
While many would say that u can't defend too well on a horse with a lance,the majority of lance cavalry in thy game have a higher defence than melee.....tough most of these DO have much armor on them...

[Alrowan]

my 2 cents...

basically you have knights with one charge, but with lances, make thier charge with lances get a huge bonus, as with wedge. after that they fight with swords etc. Also, i think that horses should kill a lot in mele as well.. i mean the did trample thier enemies a lot

[G0THIC-Lobster]

I think that the spear is better for charging, because when a cavalry charge all the energy or power thing(i don't forgot what they are) was focus on the spear, so when it hit it is devastating. of course they used a lance to charge and could stapped pplz with it but they could get out their axe, sword or mace and whack or cut at their enemy, because after a charge the lance moslty break.

[Michael the Great]

Quote[/b] (G0THIC-Lobster @ Nov. 10 2002,00:46)]I think that the spear is better for charging, because when a cavalry charge all the energy or power thing(i don't forgot what they are) was focus on the spear, so when it hit it is devastating. of course they used a lance to charge and could stapped pplz with it but they could get out their axe, sword or mace and whack or cut at their enemy, because after a charge the lance moslty break.
Yeah,but the cav in the game have their stats according to their weapons,armor etc.
And,for example,Kataphraktoi have 5 defence and 3 melee.....
So,with a lance,u brreak in the enemy formation,and then hold them off with the lance and try to find the right moment to stab them...

[andrewt]

Quote[/b] (AgentBif @ Nov. 02 2002,20:42)]
Quote[/b] ]Originally posted by andrewt:
You don't know that the software could actually do that unless you have firsthand experience with the game engine.

I seem to recall the manual saying that it tracked valor on a per-man basis. Also, each man in the formation has a health rating, I believe. If these are both true, then a suitable data infrastructure already exists for tracking per-man info; So the above feature may well be a reasonably easy thing to implement.

BTW, when certain software mods are considered infeasible, it's not a matter of "can't" but "cannot afford" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
bif
Thing is, doing that could cause a lot of lag especially in large battles. Valor is easily tracked per unit since it is just a number.

Having knights use a lance then discard it after a charge and use a sword instead requires a different approach. You have to have different graphics for the lance and the sword so that players can tell whether their knights still have a lance or are using a sword. If CA has a different sprite or model for the knight and the weapon, you can replace the graphic for the lance with the graphic for the sword while causing a little lag. However, if the entire thing is only a single sprite or model, your processor has to delete all knights once their charge hits and draw the new knights both on screen and off screen.

Experience with Diablo2 states that drawing new sprites on screen makes a lot of lag. When Baal summons new monsters to fight against you in the Throne Room, there is usually a second or two where most computers can't do anything because the animation for the monsters are loading.

What CA can do is to use the lance or sword graphic even though the in-game numbers considers the knight as using either the lance or the sword. However, this is just going to raise confusion as you can't tell whether they are using lances or swords just by looking at them.

[Michael the Great]

Whatever anyone would say,it seems that most lance (heavy) cavalry in the game have a higher defence than melle or just have a very strong defence......so this means that the lance can hold off enemyes very well until they can get stabed.
For example,take the Lancers,why do they have 7 defence? yeah,they have armor,but doesn't the lance play a role in that 7 defence?

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Michael the Great @ Nov. 11 2002,12:47)]Whatever anyone would say,it seems that most lance (heavy) cavalry in the game have a higher defence than melle or just have a very strong defence......so this means that the lance can hold off enemyes very well until they can get stabed.
For example,take the Lancers,why do they have 7 defence? yeah,they have armor,but doesn't the lance play a role in that 7 defence?
Defense stat is based the weapons used, skill/tactics of units(and looks like being on a horse generally means a bit more in defense)

Of the few units who has 7 in defense the Gothic Knights are one of them and they dont have lances. For the defense 5 cavalry you see the same thing: Gendarmes, Teutonic Sergeants, Knights Templar and Boyar.

CBR

[Alrowan]

well lancers and gothic knights all have tonns of armour to start with... go figure