why did the legion abandon the scutum?

[Hamata]

Salve Plebeians of Europa barbarorum I was wondering why the legion abandoned the rectangular scutum in for a more rounded type shield? I all way's see images of late roman legions using round shields/little armor etc so why the change?

[The Black Douglas]

it's debatable, probably due to a change in enemy weapons/strategy.
there's a bunch of theories, if you google it you'll see them all.

[moonburn]

rounded is more effective against missiles and skirmishers and since the sassanids where the romans greatest opponents i can imagine it as an adaptation

there´s also quite a few crazy theories regarding changes in tactics strategies and so forth

you could also ask why did the roman army abandoned the pillum

[BroskiDerpman]

Round shield is more simpler and cost effective, plus you can form shield wall with spears protruding which isn't possible with a scutum. Their doctrine was becoming more defensive or reactive in nature.

The Romans never really abandoned pila. Though other missile weapons were introduced like war darts, multi purpose spear/javelin combo, smaller javelins, simpler pila, etc.

[kdrakak]

I seem to remember a quote by a roman author noting how their enemies (I think referring to German tribes of his time) used projectiles prior to the attack while the romans did not do that anymore... I also seem to remember the same author noting that the legion did not charge as a standard practice as it did in the republican and early empire years. I'll try to locate it and come back on that. Unless, someone can tell us who it is by memory.

.....(edit) got it. Vegetius on the battle of Pollenta (end edit).

[Fluvius Camillus]

I used this page as my main source of information to finish my high school paper on Roman military history.

http://roman-empire.net/army/army-pictures.html
If you click the pictures you can nicely see the evolution of the Roman military in the first 5 centuries of the first millennium A.D.

~Fluvius

[moonburn]

ain´t bad but it ends at the 5h century there´s also another 1000 years of history in the eastern roman empire

[Andres]

I came to this thread because I thought it was about the legion abandoning the scrotum.

Read the thread title again and will now disappear back into the shadow... :embarassed:

[Brave Brave Sir Robin]

I came to this thread because I thought it was about the legion abandoning the scrotum.

Read the thread title again and will now disappear back into the shadow... :embarassed:

If that had been the point of the thread would you have had something to add? :clown:

[the man, the myth, the legend]

If I remember correctly, I think it had something to do with the throwing axes of the franks, riccocheting (sp?) of their shield into the rear ranks, as well as the fact they they fought in shieldwalls too. I'm sure its cheaper to make flat shield too.

[BroskiDerpman]

Yup it's more cost effective and you can fight in a shield wall like Hoplites of classical Greece.

Usually methinks Late Romans don't really charge but throw missiles/ barrage charging opponent under waves of missiles to impede movements, disrupt formation, and then kill people of course. Instead of the pila charge you have missile fire all the time until you reach their lines while they are hunkering down in shield wall by the time you get there to absorb the charge if there's any left. This is especially useful dealing with cavalry forces such as cataphracts. As I said before pila still exists, but a plethora of new missile weapons were introduced and used by soldiers.

Late Roman army on paper sounds much superior to Principate in terms of overall flexibility or sophistication (All sorts of new toys and a bunch of new titles) but in reality it is impeded by native man power (Especially good quality recruits) shortage, a ton of corrupt officials, and eventually individual warlordism as central authority wanes; Principate Rome may have many of these issues but Late Rome takes all these issues to the next level and beyond. All the issues and doctrine changes come from a slow evolution or some may describe it as a devolution. It's more from the overall situation (political, religion, etc) at the time which changed the Empire.