The BDS movement and the association of anti-Zionism and antisemitism

[Hooahguy]

A bunch of my friends on Facebook keep posting this article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-how-to-fight-academic-bigotry/2014/01/09/64f482ee-795e-11e3-af7f-13bf0e9965f6_story.html?wprss=rss_charles-krauthammer) by Charles Krauthammer, talking about how the American Studies Association's boycott of Israeli universities is bigotry and antisemitism.


And don’t tell me this is merely about Zionism. The ruse is transparent. Israel is the world’s only Jewish state. To apply to the state of the Jews a double standard that you apply to none other, to judge one people in a way you judge no other, to single out that one people for condemnation and isolation — is to engage in a gross act of discrimination.

And discrimination against Jews has a name. It’s called anti-Semitism.

And this is a very popular opinion among Jews, from the modern orthodox (as the hardcore orthodox are anti-Israel anyways, but for different reasons) all the way to the members of the reform movement, that if you happen to disagree with something that the Israeli government does in its treatment of the Palestinians, you apparently hate Jews. During Operation Pillar of Defense in November of 2012, when Israeli patriotism was running high on Facebook, with many people posting whenever another rocket struck Israeli territory (even if it landed in an empty field) I posted a status suggesting that maybe, just maybe, Israel was being a bit too heavy-handed, and it caused a storm, resulting in at least 3 people unfriending me and a number of very angry messages about how Im a traitor for even thinking that Israel could be wrong in any way shape or form. I ended up deleting the status because I didnt need the headache, but 1.5 years later I kind of feel that it was a cop-out on my part.

Anyhow, even more recently, Im being met with hostility for suggesting that part of the problem why the Palestinians are so angry is that they might not like it how the Israeli government keeps taking more and more of their land in the West Bank. I find it shocking that many pro-Israel advocates continually demand that the Palestinians just roll over and give up completely, as if they have no say in the matter, that they should be "good little Palestinians" and let the Israelis take whatever they want. Gods forbid that they try to fight back. Of course, I do not approve of their tactics, but desperate people do desperate things. I came to understand this through Battlestar Galactica, when the human resistance put a suicide bomber into a crowd of humans who were collaborating with the Cylons because they had no other way to fight back. Its the exact same thing here, any uniformed attempt to attack the IDF is swiftly put down as the IDF is much better trained and better equipped. So they shed their uniforms and are fighting and insurgency, the only real option for people facing overwhelming enemy forces. It has been this way for centuries, partisans would always be organized to harass larger enemy forces. Of course, if they were to only attack military targets it would give them much more legitimacy, but I understand why they do what they do. People backed into a corner will do anything to fight back.

Now, back on topic.

The opposition to the BDS movement is more of this idea that Israel can do no wrong. While I might personally partly disagree with the BDS movement, as I do not agree with taking out one's frustrations with the Israeli government on Israeli academics (really for more of the idea that all views should be brought to the table than anything else), they (the BDS movement) are entitled to their opinion just as those who oppose it are allowed theirs as well. But to call the BDS movement anti-Semitic? Ridiculous! The claim that they are treating Israel unfairly is a bogus one in my eyes. Every nation is different, you cannot compare one to another, as each has a myriad of problems and factors leading to those problems that must be approached differently.

Israel claims itself to be a democracy (though being a Jewish state goes against the tenets of a democracy anyways) and being one, its supporters should be welcoming any criticism that is brought up and not use the anti-Semitism excuse to sweep any criticism under the rug.

I apologize if this post rambled too much or was incoherent. Im quite tired right now.

[Hooahguy]

While I do not think that Israel is engaged in ethic cleansing (at least not yet), the attitude of many Israelis, especially the more religious ones, seems to favor that.

I find it funny that the mantra of "never again" only seems to apply to other Jews...


And I absolutely agree that the US needs to stop giving so much money to them.

[Pannonian]

Anyhow, even more recently, Im being met with hostility for suggesting that part of the problem why the Palestinians are so angry is that they might not like it how the Israeli government keeps taking more and more of their land in the West Bank. I find it shocking that many pro-Israel advocates continually demand that the Palestinians just roll over and give up completely, as if they have no say in the matter, that they should be "good little Palestinians" and let the Israelis take whatever they want. Gods forbid that they try to fight back. Of course, I do not approve of their tactics, but desperate people do desperate things. I came to understand this through Battlestar Galactica, when the human resistance put a suicide bomber into a crowd of humans who were collaborating with the Cylons because they had no other way to fight back. Its the exact same thing here, any uniformed attempt to attack the IDF is swiftly put down as the IDF is much better trained and better equipped. So they shed their uniforms and are fighting and insurgency, the only real option for people facing overwhelming enemy forces. It has been this way for centuries, partisans would always be organized to harass larger enemy forces. Of course, if they were to only attack military targets it would give them much more legitimacy, but I understand why they do what they do. People backed into a corner will do anything to fight back.

I've said a number of times that land grabbing was the most common cause of war in history, and that any sane assessment of the situation would conclude that the Palestinians have a iusta causa. The best anti arguments concentrate on the questionable means that the Palestinians use. The most insidious arguments deny the Palestinians an identity at all, thus rendering void the question of land grabs (you can't steal land from a people that don't exist). This category of argument usually argues that the "Palestinians" belong to a state that already exists outside the combined Israel-Palestine borders, usually Jordan, thus making them aliens who don't belong in the territory being disputed.

[HopAlongBunny]

Simply put, it's colonization with extermination of the subject population.
The method is outside the bounds of international law, and often, Israeli law.

One other way to look at it is: the process is no different then what has gone on since humans formed societies; get over it.

Witnessing it is distasteful; recognizing that it is illegal is troubling; but really there is not much to be done about it.

[Hooahguy]

Wait, can we define "extermination"? I have yet to see any real evidence that Israel is systematically murdering the Palestinians, just widespread oppression. I would compare it to post Kristallnacht, pre-ww2 Germany.

[Pannonian]

Wait, can we define "extermination"? I have yet to see any real evidence that Israel is systematically murdering the Palestinians, just widespread oppression. I would compare it to pre-Kristallnacht Germany.

It reminds me more of 1984 and the Communist regimes that inspired the novel. The definition of a conformist people and the contrary definition of an unpeople who don't fit the first definition who are outlawed from normal society and ghettoised into areas away from the proper people. There is no need to argue hatred against them if you can argue against their existence.

[Hooahguy]

Good point. As mentioned before, I find it very troubling that any criticism from within the Jewish community about the subject of the Palestinians is silenced. Blind nationalism at its worst.

[HoreTore]

Wait, can we define "extermination"? I have yet to see any real evidence that Israel is systematically murdering the Palestinians, just widespread oppression. I would compare it to post Kristallnacht, pre-ww2 Germany.

I wouldn't. The Kristallnacht was just the second event that showed the brutality of the regime, they had certainly let their nature known by the night of the long knives. If you want to argue that the kristallnacht showed a greater likelihood of genocide than the night of the long knives, well, there's a strong argument to be made that several people(even, or should I say especially, among displaced jews) was of the opinion that the action was undertaken to remove them from power/germany and put them to different use, but not specifically to kill them all.

Anyway, the old "Israel is held to a different standard"-argument is so old and tired it's getting absurd. It is, of course, utterly false. Israel isn't held to a different standard than, say, the UK or the US. Have we forgotten how apeshit we went back in the good ol' days of W's sabre rattling already? There is certainly a hefty dose of jew-hate in this world, but a call for academic boycott certainly does not fit that category.

And while we're on the subject of academic boycotts... If we make the assumption that intellectuals and artists have an actual impact on both society and politics, directly or indirectly, it is certainly a kind of boycott I would support, far and above the silly jaffa-boycotts others want. The reasoning is that Joe Israel wouldn't feel any impact, and it would force through a change. Now, whether academia have an actual impact on society is of course another discussion....

[HoreTore]

Good point. As mentioned before, I find it very troubling that any criticism from within the Jewish community about the subject of the Palestinians is silenced. Blind nationalism at its worst.

It's the siege mentality IMO. I have little doubt that many people believe Israel will disappear and all jews will be killed RIGHT NOW THIS INSTANT if any weakness is shown, as the threat to the land is simply apocalyptic. This can easily lead to pretty vile reprisals against those in the "us-group" who do not share the same view.

By the way.... What would this groups abbreviation be if they also decided to be marxists?

[Pannonian]

It's the siege mentality IMO. I have little doubt that many people believe Israel will disappear and all jews will be killed RIGHT NOW THIS INSTANT if any weakness is shown, as the threat to the land is simply apocalyptic. This can easily lead to pretty vile reprisals against those in the "us-group" who do not share the same view.

I think the Israelis have their right to this mentality. What I find hard to understand is why the US seem to put Israeli interests above their own to the extent that they do. I have the same issue with UK Muslims who show a similar patriotism to another country.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It'll end up as another round of "the dog chasing it's own tail."

The Academic Left are largely of the opinion that Israel stole most of the land it claims from the Palestinians, that they stole the land despite the UN suggesting different borders (many of them believe that the UN had no right to establish a Jewish state/carve up Palestine in the first place). The view the Israeli occupation of Gaza, the West Bank, and anything beyond the 1947 borders as illegal. They view Israeli treatment of the Palestinians as being somewhere on a scale between illegal and immoral on one end down to evil/just as bad as the Nazis on the other. Academics boycotting Israel -- at least as individuals -- is a decades old thing. I knew folks who wouldn't submit a paper idea for a conference in Israel just on that basis.

All of this, however, is irrelevant. Absent a nation state willing to pay the blood price to eradicate them, they are not moving. They will not give the Palestinians anything resembling the "right of return" compensation they seek. They will not allow Palestinians self-rule while there is anything resembling a credible threat from that state or its adherents. All of this boycotting and worrying about is it anti-Semitism or not is rather moot.

[Hooahguy]

I do not believe that Israel has ever been in real danger of being wiped off the map since the Yom Kippur war.

Of course zionists will continually say how Israel is on the brink of destruction 24/7, even though when was the last time a nation went under from a few random rocket strikes?

[HopAlongBunny]

An academic boycott is sort of pointless. Sure, it makes a statement but its effect on the situation is negligible.
Israel is there to stay; what becomes of the Palestinians is vague at best.
Just don't cry when someone gets fed up with the BS and blows themselves up at your convocation.

[HoreTore]

Sure, it makes a statement but its effect on the situation is negligible.

True, but it would also have zero effect on the average Israeli. It can have two possible effects:

1. Moderate Israeli academics/artist who have some sympathi for the palestinians, but have kept it to themselves, may feel the need to voice their opposition to current Israeli policy in public.
2. The hawks gain another propaganda point, further radicalizing the Israeli loonie-fringe.

It would be effective if it causes more of 1 than of 2, but I fear it's the opposite.

[rvg]

imho academic boycotts are just as idiotic as olympic boycotts. Science like sports should be above politics.

[HoreTore]

imho academic boycotts are just as idiotic as olympic boycotts. Science like sports should be above politics.

Academics and athletes should not be free to speak their mind?

All hail freedom!!!!!11111

(I'm not going to bother pointing out how removing politics from science is a logical impossibility)

[rvg]

Academics and athletes should not be free to speak their mind?

Did I say that?

[HoreTore]

Did I say that?

How can you be "above politics" and engage yourself in politics at the same time...?

[rvg]

How can you be "above politics" and engage yourself in politics at the same time...?

How is quantum physics related to politics?

[HoreTore]

How is quantum physics related to politics?

Do you honestly believe it's the hard science who's pushing for a boycott? Ever met a mathematician capable of withstanding the direct sunlight for the amount of time(ie. over 10 minutes) needed for a rally/demonstration?

Still: the creationism/science debate is highly political and only concerns the hard sciences.

Not to mention that the organization of quantum physics education and research remains highly political.

[Kadagar_AV]

What is this BDSMovement you talk about?

When you use an acronym, please explain it, if it isn't common knowledge (and since I never heard about that one, it probably isnt).

ON TOPIC: Israel is just a vile and horrible nation. They deserve much worse than what they get.

[HoreTore]

What is this BDSMovement you talk about?

When you use an acronym, please explain it, if it isn't common knowledge (and since I never heard about that one, it probably isnt).

The boycott movement against Israel is pretty damn common knowledge. Uneducated Swedes should refer to google when he finds his Swedishness has got the better of him ~;)

[HopAlongBunny]

True, but it would also have zero effect on the average Israeli. It can have two possible effects:

1. Moderate Israeli academics/artist who have some sympathi for the palestinians, but have kept it to themselves, may feel the need to voice their opposition to current Israeli policy in public.
2. The hawks gain another propaganda point, further radicalizing the Israeli loonie-fringe.

It would be effective if it causes more of 1 than of 2, but I fear it's the opposite.

I agree.
If it mobilizes academia to actually object and articulate then it works; however to articulate objections to the "Whole Land " project in Israel is in some sectors equivalent to treason.
The issue is extremely polarized; bringing it to a head might be dangerous. I just don't think there is the "will" in Israel to face the issue.

[Fragony]

I don't know that movement. But how is the fixation in Israel not anti-semitism, do the same people who get all worked up about Israel get worked up about other problematic parts of the world, nope, they don't. If you do a process of elimination of all factors, how can you not come to the conclusion that it's absolutily antisemitism, just a less obvious one because they can now blame a state. What else could make Israel so special for them?

'And don’t tell me this is merely about Zionism. The ruse is transparent. Israel is the world’s only Jewish state. To apply to the state of the Jews a double standard that you apply to none other, to judge one people in a way you judge no other, to single out that one people for condemnation and isolation — is to engage in a gross act of discrimination.

And discrimination against Jews has a name. It’s called anti-Semitism.'

I agree with him. Jews should still watch their back in ffing 2014 .The EU couldn't wait to give the muslim brotherhood free money, and you know what they stand for. The EU gives free money to the Hamas-government, and you know what they stand for.

Israel got one big boa-constrictor around it's neck, it just isn't allowed that they got their own hub there.

[rvg]

Still: the creationism/science debate is highly political and only concerns the hard sciences.
There's no debate. There's nothing to debate.


Not to mention that the organization of quantum physics education and research remains highly political.
Que?

[Ironside]

I don't know that movement. But how is the fixation in Israel not anti-semitism, do the same people who get all worked up about Israel get worked up about other problematic parts of the world, nope, they don't. If you do a process of elimination of all factors, how can you not come to the conclusion that it's absolutily antisemitism, just a less obvious one because they can now blame a state. What else could make Israel so special for them?


The left loves an underdog and supported Israel when they were one.
Any states that are western or westernish are hold to a higher standard.
Any democracy is hold to a higher standard.
Keeping a situation similar for a very long time will create a larger but more low burning activivists. If you burnt out on the cause and it's still there 10 years later, you can still join it, instead of finding a new cause.

So give me a western -ish democracy that you can easily conjure up as an active bully. Israeli tanks vs stone throwing Palestinian children is a very biased picture, but it isn't wrong. South Africa was pariah in many countries during the apartheid.

Let me put it this way. The US gets plenty of blame by Europeans and this shift happened decades (the Vietnam war) after the US got the become the global and cultural superpower it is today. Is this because of rascism?
Or is it because the US is dominating and at the same time doesn't fullfill some high horses ideals that's placed upon them?

Get noted. Appear to be able to fullfill some ideals. Fail at those ideals. Enjoy the rage.

[Husar]

I don't know that movement. But how is the fixation in Israel not anti-semitism, do the same people who get all worked up about Israel get worked up about other problematic parts of the world, nope, they don't.

How do you know all these things? Can you show me your data about people who dislike Israel and what else they get worked up over or are you just pulling these "facts" out of your body cavities?

[Fragony]

How do you know all these things? Can you show me your data about people who dislike Israel and what else they get worked up over or are you just pulling these "facts" out of your body cavities?

Well the fact is simply that MSN and leftist self-congratulaters don't give a crap when it's not Israel. Absolute silence. When it's Israel though there isn't enough chocolate in the world to counter their hormonal spikes.

'Any states that are western or westernish are hold to a higher standard.'

That could at least be an explanation, but I am not buying it. Antisemitism is very much alive in Europe but it found a safer output to channel it.

[Husar]

Well the fact is simply that MSN and leftist self-congratulaters don't give a crap when it's not Israel. Absolute silence. When it's Israel though there isn't enough chocolate in the world to counter their hormonal spikes.

'Any states that are western or westernish are hold to a higher standard.'

That could at least be an explanation, but I am not buying it. Antisemitism is very much alive in Europe but it found a safer output to channel it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWUJvTyl-m4

"2 x 3 equals 4
Widdewiddewitt*, add 3 and you get 9!
I'm making my world
Widdewidde just the way I like it .... "

Fits the attitude of the antagonists in these conflicts as well, everybody has an excuse not to give an inch and for some not giving an inch means taking inches every day. I've quite frankly stopped caring for the most part. I'm sure there are some reasonable people but as usual they get drowned out by the shouting of the unreasonables, whatever the ratio between the groups may be.

I'm not sure what boycotting universities is supposed to achieve but being opposed to Israel's politics is not necessarily anti-semitism either way. :shrug:

[Fragony]

I'm not sure what boycotting universities is supposed to achieve but being opposed to Israel's politics is not necessarily anti-semitism either way. :shrug:

But only caring about Israel makes it very likely.

My personal theory that I can't back up and you are allowed to mock me. I think that the real reason is that Israel has succes, it has universities that rank among the best in the world, innovative industry, compatitive economy. That's got to be a bit hard to explain when you are ideologically infused with the idea, or rather truth that all cultures are equal. The palestianes get more aid than any 'country' in the world and it's a mess. So, lefties simply can't get to terms with being wrong.

Fire away

[Pannonian]

I'm not sure what boycotting universities is supposed to achieve but being opposed to Israel's politics is not necessarily anti-semitism either way. :shrug:

I'm as exasperated by British Islamists as I am puzzled by Israel's influence in the US. I guess this makes me an anti-semite on both sides of the Israel-Palestine divide.

[Husar]

But only caring about Israel makes it very likely.

My personal theory that I can't back up and you are allowed to mock me. I think that the real reason is that Israel has succes, it has universities that rank among the best in the world, innovative industry, compatitive economy. That's got to be a bit hard to explain when you are ideologically infused with the idea, or rather truth that all cultures are equal. The palestianes get more aid than any 'country' in the world and it's a mess. So, lefties simply can't get to terms with being wrong.

Fire away

There are people who are as unreasonable as you say but there is no reason to devote 90% of your posts to a tiny weirdo minority that has barely any impact and treat them as though they dictate all politics in the west. Doing that is unreasonable as well, it's like an unhealthy fixation.


I'm as exasperated by British Islamists as I am puzzled by Israel's influence in the US. I guess this makes me an anti-semite on both sides of the Israel-Palestine divide.

It's a fact that Israel keeps taking land that Palestinians occupy and I haven't seen any arguments as to why that would be okay to do. The only "counter argument" is usually a distraction like "but the Palestinians..." which always ends in that two wrongs do not make a right.

If Israel has the right to take land from its neighbors as long as it can by being militarily stronger, then what about Germany occupying some polish and dutch border towns to settle German people there? Would that be okay? The dutch don't even have tanks anymore to oppose us, that will be easy...

Taking that land is not a defense against rocket attacks and suicide bombers either so that's certainly not a justification, they may justify setting up checkpoints and other measures but not land grabs beyond the borders accepted by the UN.

[Pannonian]

It's a fact that Israel keeps taking land that Palestinians occupy and I haven't seen any arguments as to why that would be okay to do. The only "counter argument" is usually a distraction like "but the Palestinians..." which always ends in that two wrongs do not make a right.

If Israel has the right to take land from its neighbors as long as it can by being militarily stronger, then what about Germany occupying some polish and dutch border towns to settle German people there? Would that be okay? The dutch don't even have tanks anymore to oppose us, that will be easy...

Taking that land is not a defense against rocket attacks and suicide bombers either so that's certainly not a justification, they may justify setting up checkpoints and other measures but not land grabs beyond the borders accepted by the UN.

See the argument I summarised above, that IIRC I've seen Frag or someone trot out here as well. "Palestinians" don't exist. The land was split into various states, one of which was Jordan, and so-called "Palestinians" are really Jordanians who have no right to any disputed land because they belong to a foreign state and not a disputed state. And since they don't exist, they don't exist to dispute the land, and thus Israel is merely holding what is her territory by right and without dispute. That's what I mean by 1984 and Communism. Nazism would preach hatred against its enemy. 1984-style Communism refuses to recognise their existence.

[Husar]

See the argument I summarised above, that IIRC I've seen Frag or someone trot out here as well. "Palestinians" don't exist. The land was split into various states, one of which was Jordan, and so-called "Palestinians" are really Jordanians who have no right to any disputed land because they belong to a foreign state and not a disputed state. And since they don't exist, they don't exist to dispute the land, and thus Israel is merely holding what is her territory by right and without dispute. That's what I mean by 1984 and Communism. Nazism would preach hatred against its enemy. 1984-style Communism refuses to recognise their existence.

Ah yes, but this still doesn't explain how this is Israel's land when the UN decided it is not. The USA wouldn't just let Russia occupy all of Antarctica just because Jordan has not claimed any of it. You may be right in that is what people do but it still doesn't work out that you expel people from the land they've been living on possibly for centuries based on your personal recategorization of their nationality.

I want to see a proper argument and "they're Jordanians because I say so" is not a proper argument.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Since BDS says that it calls for a boycott of Israeli academic institutions that discriminate against Palestinians, rather than simply any academic of Israeli citizenship, I would agree that it is not anti-semitic, on those grounds at least.


See the argument I summarised above, that IIRC I've seen Frag or someone trot out here as well. "Palestinians" don't exist. The land was split into various states, one of which was Jordan, and so-called "Palestinians" are really Jordanians who have no right to any disputed land because they belong to a foreign state and not a disputed state. And since they don't exist, they don't exist to dispute the land, and thus Israel is merely holding what is her territory by right and without dispute. That's what I mean by 1984 and Communism. Nazism would preach hatred against its enemy. 1984-style Communism refuses to recognise their existence.

Well, as far as I understand it, Palestinian nationalism is a fairly modern creation, as are all the nationalisms based around Arab states carved out rather arbitrarily by the colonial powers less than a full century ago.* I think that in pointing this out, these "1984-style Communists" are trying to win the argument over historical legitimacy, rather than denying that a real Palestinian nationalism exists today (though some may do this, such thinking is not the natural conclusion of the 'historic legitimacy' argument more generally). I think a more interesting line of thought would be to look into the development of the modern, Zionist form of Israeli nationalism, and challenge just how solid its own historic foundations are.

*Surely both sides should show some nuance here, and recognize that while (Arab) Palestine cannot claim to be the continuation of some sort of long-term historic state/people, Palestinian nationalism does have some historic precendents in more general pan-Arabism. Certainly, it could be seen in the revolts against the Ottomans.

[Husar]

There's still the notion that people have to have a nationality or national identity to have the right to live somewhere. Nationality is a far newer concept than having a home. The sinti and roma and the kurds have similar problems, in fact the jews had it as well before they were gifted a strip of land and formed a nationality around it.

[Fragony]

See the argument I summarised above, that IIRC I've seen Frag or someone trot out here as well. "Palestinians" don't exist. The land was split into various states, one of which was Jordan, and so-called "Palestinians" are really Jordanians who have no right to any disputed land because they belong to a foreign state and not a disputed state. And since they don't exist, they don't exist to dispute the land, and thus Israel is merely holding what is her territory by right and without dispute. That's what I mean by 1984 and Communism. Nazism would preach hatred against its enemy. 1984-style Communism refuses to recognise their existence.

Is there anything historically wrong with that position? No they don't exist they were invented.

[Hooahguy]

That's what I mean by 1984 and Communism. Nazism would preach hatred against its enemy. 1984-style Communism refuses to recognise their existence.
Well, as more and more nationalistic Zionists move to Israel (especially from the US where worship of Israel is started from pre-school) the attitudes about Palestinians get even more violent. Just look at all the Price Tag attacks on Palestinian properties. Everything from burning olive groves to tagging buildings with things like "death to Arabs."

Just look at this conversation a (sane) friend of mine had with a radical new immigrant during Pillar of Defense:

https://i.imgur.com/fbWLj.png

And that was just a small portion of that conversation.

[Ironside]

Well the fact is simply that MSN and leftist self-congratulaters don't give a crap when it's not Israel. Absolute silence. When it's Israel though there isn't enough chocolate in the world to counter their hormonal spikes.

'Any states that are western or westernish are hold to a higher standard.'

That could at least be an explanation, but I am not buying it. Antisemitism is very much alive in Europe but it found a safer output to channel it.

Here's a few questions for you.

Does Israel act as it intends to to assimilate parts of the West Bank?
Did Israel commit small scale ethnic cleansing (mostly in the form of forced relocation) in the parts of the occupied territories that seems to be intended for assimilation? Or to rephrase it, does it live any Palestinians in the Jewish settlements?
Are the Palestinians living under occupied conditions?
Are the Palestinians the underdogs in the conflict?
Can you name an identical situation? Tibet is close, but that's forced cultural assimilation and creating a divisive society by importing Han Chinese in the upper echelons. It's also communistic China doing it and starting it during the cold war. So it's a dictorship and it started in a time it was hard to get traction.

Are the US held to a different standard than China?
Are the US getting more flak than China?
In a conflict that forces alliances, would Europe ally with the US or China?
Why did the left stop liking the US?
Why did the left stop being ok with Israel? (Hint. It started to rapidly decline in 1967).

And I'm trying to figure out how exactly the Left should've picked it up according to you.
By liking the muslims and absorbing jewish hate from there? The multicultural blinders is younger than that. Those blinders also fits "always support the underdogs" and "all cultures are equal and should all be cheerished" much better.
Hidden neo-nazis? They're good at hiding, since extreme left vs extreme right is the most common political violence. They hate eachother.
Ideological reasons? No. There's plenty of leftie ideological reasons to dislike the Israeli policy towards the Palestinians though.
Started with it? No, otherwise the left would've never liked Israel in any form.
Has there been occations and persons that gone far enough to be antisemitic rather than opposing Israeli treatment of the Palestinians? Sure, but it's not antisemitism that was the driving force.

[Fragony]

That's a barrage of questions. Got one back, who is surrounded by genocidal maniacs who have sworn to destroy their state and get shot at at daily bases.

Gonna cherrypick this one out though,

'Can you name an identical situation'

Absolutily, the western sahara of Marocco, supposedly the most modern state in Northern Africa. Also the Kurds come to mind.

I can answer all questions I think, but keep it to a smaller dosis for me please.

Edit, taking this on as well.

'And I'm trying to figure out how exactly the Left should've picked it up according to you.'

Simply because Israel proves that leftist 'intellectuals' are wrong. The society they think they can build is an illusion and the succes Israel has is a slap in the face bringing that home. Leftist intellectuals are used to never have been argued against, so it's simply resentment against the fact that is being completily wrong about some things.

[Ironside]

That's a barrage of questions. Got one back, who is surrounded by genocidal maniacs who have sworn to destroy their state and get shot at at daily bases.

The Palestinians? Or was it a multiple answer question?

They are shot at more than the Israeli, but the surronding genocidal maniacs got less political power.

Anyway, that goes into justification. And I'm saying that a large chunk of the left aren't buying that justification.


Can you name an identical situation'

Absolutily, the western sahara of Marocco, supposedly the most modern state in Northern Africa. Also the Kurds come to mind.

Both are dealing with suppression of a possible new state, rather than annexation (I remembered the right word now). It's less obvious.


I can answer all questions I think, but keep it to a smaller dosis for me please.

Most are Yes or No questions. It's more to provide a context. The two last ones are more complex, but a major part of the answer is that both nations started to look bullyish and imperialistic due to how they acting in war.


Simply because Israel proves that leftist 'intellectuals' are wrong. The society they think they can build is an illusion and the succes Israel has is a slap in the face bringing that home. Leftist intellectuals are used to never have been argued against, so it's simply resentment against the fact that is being completily wrong about some things.

Eh, the society the left wants to build is supposed to be more equal somehow. That's as far as they agree.

And I'm not sure what you mean by the success by Israel. Being successful, while brutal towards your neightbours aren't exactly uncommon in history.

Leftist intellectuals are quite used being argued against. What you might be able to argue is that they're unused to not be on the side of "the good guys", but it's not uncommon that they ignore the bad sides on the part they're cheering on. Or accept it as a part of the struggle. It's a gray vs gray conflict in any way.

Anyway, how it this supposed to make them anti-semitic instead of anti-Israel?

[Fragony]

Leftist intellectuals are quite used being argued against. What you might be able to argue is that they're unused to not be on the side of "the good guys", but it's not uncommon that they ignore the bad sides on the part they're cheering on. Or accept it as a part of the struggle. It's a gray vs gray conflict in any way.

Anyway, how it this supposed to make them anti-semitic instead of anti-Israel?

Because they only care about Israel. In other parts of the world violence and cruelty is taken for granted, uch much worse cruelty and violence I might add. It's no excuse that Israel is held at a higher standard, it's an inconsistancy in the school of thought of equality. Call it a gray area if you want, it won't get you any drinks in the leftist stratosphere and you probably know that if you ever been to a meeting of furious lefties, you won't convince me that a side has already been picked if you not aren't to come with anything better than this. The left is still deeply antisematic, not because of screaming sieg heil like in the old days, but by totally ignoring everything they don't fancy all that much. In short, the left is creepy and dangerous, what they see in others they don't recognise when looking into a mirror.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Because they only care about Israel. In other parts of the world violence and cruelty is taken for granted, uch much worse cruelty and violence I might add. It's no excuse that Israel is held at a higher standard, it's an inconsistancy in the school of thought of equality. Call it a gray area if you want, it won't get you any drinks in the leftist stratosphere and you probably know that if you ever been to a meeting of furious lefties, you won't convince me that a side has already been picked if you not aren't to come with anything better than this. The left is still deeply antisematic, not because of screaming sieg heil like in the old days, but by totally ignoring everything they don't fancy all that much. In short, the left is creepy and dangerous, what they see in others they don't recognise when looking into a mirror.

I think you're half right - Israel is singled out due to hypocrisy - but not because they're Jewish.

The fact is - the Left can cope with African Despots slaughtering people, but it can't cope with what is apparently a "Western Democracy" doing the same. So Israel falls foul of the same exceptionalism as South Africa before it.

Underlying that is probably the realisation that if Israelis can pump sewage into the Palestinian water supply - then, then Americans could do that to Canadians, or at least Mexicans.

It makes it much harder to look back at the "Colonial era" as the Bad Old Days when we didn't "know better". The Israelis definitely know better, but they do it anyway. The logical extension being that the Victorians probably knew better too...

[Tellos Athenaios]

I think you're half right - Israel is singled out due to hypocrisy - but not because they're Jewish.

The fact is - the Left can cope with African Despots slaughtering people, but it can't cope with what is apparently a "Western Democracy" doing the same. So Israel falls foul of the same exceptionalism as South Africa before it.

Underlying that is probably the realisation that if Israelis can pump sewage into the Palestinian water supply - then, then Americans could do that to Canadians, or at least Mexicans.

Or: that you don't want your allies to be pulling that kind of stunt 'just cause. Which is the problem with Israel, the incredible 'just cause attitude towards pretty much everyone else. That kinda moves them from a likeable ally with an unfortunate tendency to elect deliberate idiots trying to pass off their ignorance as a virtue into straight up immoral and oddly reminiscent of certain past regimes.

[Fragony]

I think you're half right - Israel is singled out due to hypocrisy - but not because they're Jewish.

The left sympathises with people who hate Israel because they are jewish. What was the first thing that was done when Israel moved out of Gaza? The synagogues were burned down. Israel's enemies are openly antisemit and aren't very secretive about what they have in mind, and leftist cheer-monkeys wear their symbols. Wearing an arafat-shawl is no different than wearing a swastika, it stands for the same thing. The left not deeply antisemit, I don't think so.

If you question Israel's behaviour (shooting back) 'The villainy you teach me I will execute, and I shall go hard, but I will better the instruction'

I am sure that quote is on a wall somewhere.

[Ironside]

If you question Israel's behaviour (shooting back) 'The villainy you teach me I will execute, and I shall go hard, but I will better the instruction'

I am sure that quote is on a wall somewhere.

They already knew that lesson in 1947.

By now they're complaining about a nasty bruise that the house owner gave them, while the home owner is very beatened up. And they won't leave, because one room is absolutly faboulous.

40 years ago it might have been militarly important, but nowadays there's no major military threat towards Israel. Instead we should celebrate the bully because he shows restraint.
It's now Israel can afford to create a modicum of good will and improve the situation. Even if Hamas would use the opportunity to increase their arms, they would still end up with way to little arms to threaten Israel and would start to become very obvious that they don't care for the average Palestinian. It's unknown if Israel got the same opportunity 40 years from now, or alternativly one of those "kill them all" Israeli politicians gets a bit too much power.

The Palestinian hatred is a mixture of anti-semitism and ourage of being occupied. The Iranian is a mix of anti-semitism, realpolitik (they're exerting influence through the conflict) and a kind of excuse "don't look at the problems at home, look at the evil Israelis/Jews and how we temporary care for our Palestinian brothers in plight".

[Fragony]

That muslims hate jews needs little extra explanation. That neo-nazi's hate jews also needs no explanation. Antisemitism on the left does though, and don't tell me it doesn't exist. It's heartwarming really, a notoriously antisemit French comdedian brings all groups together, in the adience there are muslims, skinheads, and Arafat-shawl wearing 'anti-facists'(lol), cozy and in perfect harmony, nice to share a hobby, really binding.

[Rhyfelwyr]

That muslims hate jews needs little extra explanation. That neo-nazi's hate jews also needs no explanation. Antisemitism on the left does though, and don't tell me it doesn't exist. It's heartwarming really, a notoriously antisemit French comdedian brings all groups together, in the adience there are muslims, skinheads, and Arafat-shawl wearing 'anti-facists'(lol), cozy and in perfect harmony, nice to share a hobby, really binding.

You get clowns on the left just like you do on the right. I don't think anti-semetism is a feature of the mainstream left.

[Fragony]

You get clowns on the left just like you do on the right. I don't think anti-semetism is a feature of the mainstream left.

Certainly seems to be just that. You can blame my fellow rightwingers for being overly pro-Israel and being unfair towards the Palestinians. I'd take that.

[Ironside]

That muslims hate jews needs little extra explanation. That neo-nazi's hate jews also needs no explanation. Antisemitism on the left does though, and don't tell me it doesn't exist. It's heartwarming really, a notoriously antisemit French comdedian brings all groups together, in the adience there are muslims, skinheads, and Arafat-shawl wearing 'anti-facists'(lol), cozy and in perfect harmony, nice to share a hobby, really binding.

That it exists in fringes that doesn't get the criticism it should because they're for "the cause", wouldn't suprise me one bit. But to go back to the original topic:

It doesn't exist even close to the amount where someone can state that the BDS movement would either exist or be anywhere close as strong if the Palestina conflict was resolved and be taken seriously.

I would even go a step further, even if anti-semitism would be a major reason for why the conflict is in so high focus, it doesn't change the nature of the majority of the protesting. To take West-Sahara for example. It's mostly ignored, but the left is criticising Marocco for it. They're very far from giving Marocco a stamp of approval.

So a situation where Israel would be filled with Christians would still have Israel heavily criticised.

Basically, it's the defense of a celeberty who ends up in bar fights (since who started it can be a bit dubious for that one sometimes) alot and ends up in the spot light. He immidiatly attack the media for spot lighting him because he's famous and they don't focus on the random barfighting smuck on the street. And (intentionally?) misses the point that the barfighting of the random smuck isn't in any way approved.

[Fragony]

I can't really get on-topic, I am not familiar with that organisation, I don't know what their game is. I do however agree with the quote that is in the original topic. You don't have to, we are debating because we see things differently, that's fine. I am not blind to the injustices but I find the fixation suspect to say the least. I am pretty confident that the conflict will end when the choice is made to end it. But Hamas can't do that without becomming a target itselve. This is a proxy warfare, they will just be replaced by Islamic Jihad or even more radical groups. Either way, normal Palestinians who's only concern is what's for dinner are screwed, no matter what is done.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You get clowns on the left just like you do on the right. I don't think anti-semetism is a feature of the mainstream left.

No, no, no. That's "Clowns to the left" and "JOKERS to the right." Do the youth of today remember nothing about what matters?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

40 years ago it might have been militarly important, but nowadays there's no major military threat towards Israel.

No credible threat on a formal military level. As in, no force combination exists that could truly wipe Israel from the map.

However, the security threat is still real and Israel faces all of the usual difficulties in confronting an opponent who has resorted to a strictly asymmetric warfare mode. From mid 2003 to the end of 2009, the USA had hundreds of fatalities each year in the Iraqi occupation, long after we had won the conventional conflict. Israel is engaged in suppressing an insurgency movement -- a far more vexing task.

[Husar]

The left hates jews because jews horde all the money in their banks, it's an inherent feature of left political philosophy to hate the rich. It's not the fault of the left that all the jews are rich and most of the rich are jews. If they jews want to avoid this, they can gift their banks to their governments.*

*Not all of this is totally serial, serially!
Everytime I say "the" it's serious though.

[Hooahguy]

If you question Israel's behaviour (shooting back) 'The villainy you teach me I will execute, and I shall go hard, but I will better the instruction'


The problem isnt Israel fighting back. I dont think anyone sane questions Israel's right to fight back. The problem is that shelling and launching airstrikes in one of the most population dense areas in the world is a daft idea. If you think that Cast Lead and Pillar of Defense were sound COIN strategies then I consider you daft. If anything, those two major offensives in Gaza caused more tension between the Palestinians and Israels than eased it. At this point the Palestinians are all too familiar with the iron fist, and extending a peace branch would do far more in terms of COIN than an air strike ever would.

[Fragony]

The problem isnt Israel fighting back. I dont think anyone sane questions Israel's right to fight back. The problem is that shelling and launching airstrikes in one of the most population dense areas in the world is a daft idea. If you think that Cast Lead and Pillar of Defense were sound COIN strategies then I consider you daft. If anything, those two major offensives in Gaza caused more tension between the Palestinians and Israels than eased it. At this point the Palestinians are all too familiar with the iron fist, and extending a peace branch would do far more in terms of COIN than an air strike ever would.

Feel free to call me daft. Did leaving the west-bank ever alleviate any tensions? The reason that shells and air-strikes hit the most densily populated area's is because these are purposily used as a human shield. That is a bad deal for the people who live there of course and I do feel sorry for them, but I am not looking at Israel when I consider the misery that is bestowed on them, getting killed is their purpose in a very cynical propaganda warfare. You have changed since your visit, but you attended one of these religious schools that are pretty damn extremist and I can hardly blame you for, imho, losing sight of the bigger picture, as they are frankly scum. But it isn't just them that are hated, all jews are hated. You did the right thing to gtfo of that place because they are just as bad by the way, congratulations for being sane.

[Hooahguy]

Israel is still in the West Bank, you are thinking of Gaza. If the US's experience in Iraq and Afghanistan is any indication, iron fists do not work in the long term. Humanitarian aid does. Hearts and minds. At the very least, settlement expansion isnt helping either.

[Fragony]

Ok not fully but the border area's of the West-bank, gaza yeah. It's not a concession that had very much effect on the mindset. And really what's the problem. Israel got attacked and gained some territory in the proces.

For the greater perspective, look at Europe http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=14d_1348362692

Nothing new.

[Beskar]

For the greater perspective, look at Europe http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=14d_1348362692

The video is quite poor in some cases, it has the Great War being conducted ten years too early and with post-WW1 borders in 1914 was the most glaring example. There are quite a number of other different events which are occurring on the wrong dates and such, and a couple of them seemed made up.

Eitherway, that is the past, it is forgetting key features of the Israeli-Palestine conflict such as the Oslo Accords.

[Fragony]

The video is quite poor in some cases, it has the Great War being conducted ten years too early and with post-WW1 borders in 1914 was the most glaring example. There are quite a number of other different events which are occurring on the wrong dates and such, and a couple of them seemed made up.

Eitherway, that is the past, it is forgetting key features of the Israeli-Palestine conflict such as the Oslo Accords.

Yeah there are some errors. In the second worldwar as well. The soundtrack makes up for that though.

[Ironside]

The video is quite poor in some cases, it has the Great War being conducted ten years too early and with post-WW1 borders in 1914 was the most glaring example. There are quite a number of other different events which are occurring on the wrong dates and such, and a couple of them seemed made up.

Eitherway, that is the past, it is forgetting key features of the Israeli-Palestine conflict such as the Oslo Accords.

He's applying a linear timeline with 2 data points on a map that changes non-linear, since the map is done by someone else. 30-40 points would be better.

Anyway, the right to conquest has been massivly looked down to after WWII.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Israel is still in the West Bank, you are thinking of Gaza. If the US's experience in Iraq and Afghanistan is any indication, iron fists do not work in the long term. Humanitarian aid does. Hearts and minds. At the very least, settlement expansion isnt helping either.

Humanitarian aid only works as a stopgap, and only works if the local kleptocrats cannot siphon off the majority for themselves.

In the long run, the "natives" must develop carrying capacity for themselves -- the ability to do things for themselves -- or aid is nought but a sinkhole.

[Hooahguy]

Humanitarian aid only works as a stopgap, and only works if the local kleptocrats cannot siphon off the majority for themselves.

In the long run, the "natives" must develop carrying capacity for themselves -- the ability to do things for themselves -- or aid is nought but a sinkhole.
Aye, just shipping in the stuff to the gates of Gaza wont do anything, as we have seen with Africa (warlords taking most of the aid), Iraq, and Afghanistan, and gods know where else, it needs to be put into the hands of the people directly. If Afghanistan is any indication, the villages that got aid from NATO such as food, electricity, and farming equipment, they were the least likely to fight against NATO, as they didnt need the Taliban to survive and didnt believe them when they said that NATO was evil and such. Now then, even if Hamas keeps touting how Israel is satan, yet Israel is bringing in tons of food, water, supplies, etc, who are the Palestinians more likely to believe? The people providing them food? Or the ones giving them nothing. Right now, Hamas is the one trying to meet the daily needs of the Palestinians, bringing more and more of them onto their side, while Israel keeps shelling and dropping bombs, giving Hamas all the reason to say that Israel only wants to destroy them.

[Strike For The South]

Aye, just shipping in the stuff to the gates of Gaza wont do anything, as we have seen with Africa (warlords taking most of the aid), Iraq, and Afghanistan, and gods know where else, it needs to be put into the hands of the people directly. If Afghanistan is any indication, the villages that got aid from NATO such as food, electricity, and farming equipment, they were the least likely to fight against NATO, as they didnt need the Taliban to survive and didnt believe them when they said that NATO was evil and such. Now then, even if Hamas keeps touting how Israel is satan, yet Israel is bringing in tons of food, water, supplies, etc, who are the Palestinians more likely to believe? The people providing them food? Or the ones giving them nothing. Right now, Hamas is the one trying to meet the daily needs of the Palestinians, bringing more and more of them onto their side, while Israel keeps shelling and dropping bombs, giving Hamas all the reason to say that Israel only wants to destroy them.

This kind of naivete is cute. Wrong, but cute.

[Husar]

This kind of naivete is cute. Wrong, but cute.

So you mean any goodwill shown will be interpreted as a weakness and be exploited to drive the Israelis back into the sea?

[Hooahguy]

This kind of naivete is cute. Wrong, but cute.
Do you have a better idea? The status quo clearly isnt working.

[Fragony]

Do you have a better idea? The status quo clearly isnt working.

How so, there are hardly any attacks anymore because of the wall and the checkpoints. (Egypt also build a wall and gasses tunnels, zero outrage from people with culture and people who have superior morals). The Palestinians allready get the most aid in the world. Does that help? Nope. A wall helps.

[Hooahguy]

How so, there are hardly any attacks anymore because of the wall and the checkpoints.
But they still happen and more importantly, the animosity is still there. Check out this segment from a Louis Theroux documentary (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DduUcPSU_TM#t=1910). The attacks might have slowed but the hate is very much still there, especially in the younger population. And that will just fester until it bursts again.


The Palestinians allready get the most aid in the world. Does that help? Nope. A wall helps.
Wrong. They are third. Pakistan and Somalia are first and second. According to Global Humanitarian Assistance (http://www.globalhumanitarianassistance.org/country-profiles) anyways (though your points still stands, I will agree that just pouring aid into Gaza from outside doesnt necessarily mean it will work, I was specifically discussing sending aid from Israel). And I do agree with you that when it comes for security, the wall certainly helps, but thinking long term it also hurts a lot. It becomes a symbol of oppression for the Palestinians and then they teach their kids that the Israelis are people to hate for putting up this wall. Should they be more angry at the terrorists who bomb buses and caused the wall to be put up? Absolutely, there are no saints in this conflict.

My point is that if you want to end the conflict, a change in the mindset of both sides is in order, and Israel should be the "bigger man" in this conflict and take the first steps towards this goal.

[Fragony]

Numbers are wrong, Palestinians get the most if you include UN-freemoney on tops of the free money they get from the EU and the free money they get from the US. There is a reason they are so fat, second fattest in the world. More food? So that can hatch even more offspring?

[Beskar]

There is a reason they are so fat, second fattest in the world. More food? So that can hatch even more offspring?

Actually, that is related to the type of diet, opposed to eating too much. They get a lot of grain and simple sugars from the aid into their diets, opposed to anything too healthily produced. Video discussing why this is bad (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNYlIcXynwE). So the body simply burns the sugar and stores what is not used and doesn't touch the fat (so no ketogenesis). Even then, when I was actually in Palestine and Israel, on average, the Israeli's were far larger than the Palestinians who were quite scrawny.

There are also visual differences even in Jerusalem where the Israeli side were all pristine and well-kept, whilst the Arab side was rather ran-down and in the dumps. This is even more so when you travelled around, you could easily tell the difference between the Jewish and Arab communities, with the Jewish communities being in a style of an American suburb whilst the Arab communities were mud-bricks and random panels of iron/fabric used as roofs and walls.

[Fragony]

If it's the dieet their exceptionally long life expendenship is kinda odd, beats Turkey, and them Turks really like good food.