Cav vs foot Fatigue test

[Hakonarson]

In the old forum there was a thread complaining about the speed with which cavalry became fatigued, so I decided to do a little test.

I set up a custom battle on the flattest map I could find (castle 1-1-0).

One side had 2 units each of archers, halberdiers, Chiv MAA, Royal Knights, Polish Retainers, alan Cav and crossbowmen.

All units were valour 0.

I formed them into 2 identical groups on opposite sides of the map & ran them to and from the castle in line several times until the Halberdiers were reduced to no fatigue bars left.

I did this by giving each group a move then typing ctrl-r to make them all run - if I tried just double clicking some ran and others walked.

When the Halberdiers got down to 0 fatigue ALL the cavalry still had 3 fatigue bars left, the archers and CMAA had 2.

I continued - the CMAA were soon down to 1, the archers a little after. The CMAA hit 0 fatigue with the archers on 1.

The cavalry were all still on 3 bars.


A simple test - I'd be loathe to rad any statistical significance into it, but it does seem to give lie to the theory that cavalry fatigue faster than infantry

[CBR]

The boost they got from the patch means cavalry is fine now if you ask me.

CBR

[Hakonarson]

The complaint at eth time wasn't about combat, but about the sped at which they tire.

My test was a pretty simple one tho - each troop covered teh same distance - the cavalry got to rest while the infantry caught up So my test was for fatigue over fixed time for a fixed distance.

If it's possible to have a perfectly flat battlefield then another test would be to set them all running from one side to the otehr, and see how much fatigue each unit had left when it completed the distance - ie take the time/rest factor out of it.

[CBR]

Fatigue for cavalry was afaik changed in the patch. That was what I meant.

CBR

[1dread1lahll]

CBR I can see that you have never ridden a real horse, and no idea now quick they poop out. Seems you care little about the games balance, and more about your favorite unit, I wonder how long people that feel the same as you will last with this game when everyone is taking that one unit..

[MagyarKhans Cham]

well CBR seems already famous with that "unit".

its simple an horse is designed to walk/run. but a warhorse mounted with a men and 50kg of armour will certainly fatigue faster than a steppe horse with a men on it. i dont know the english words for teh different stages of gallop of an horse but i do know they dont tire faster than any men. at least in any comparible stages of walk/run between human and horse.

well i am not an expert in modern, european type horses but i know they do fine in the militairy and i do know what a steppepony can fullfill.

before it looks like moaning or whining or whatever teh horses now are ridicilous strong, esp some types. just pack a bunch and throw them in on a flank and teh flank breaks.

japanese horses in old shog were fine after some patches/releases so they must be tuned fine here as well. teh latest patch just overshoot them a bit.

there will be a challenge for those who will work on teh stats and to make it feel like everything is in harmony.

i just expected a bit more from u CBR that u think that lancers, oops horses are fine now. but its just that we all must adjust to the new patch, inside and outside the forum.

our Khan dont study stats but tries to translate it to certain real situations. 44 men urban militia (with halberds H3) should beat 8 h0 lancers, i saw that teh militia broke at 24 men left against 4 lancers left. a men with an halberd should hit the legs of teh horse first, where the horse tumbles down with the heave knight falling unconsious by his own weight.

[Hakonarson]

Unfortunately I haven't got an unpatched MTW any more lol - with all eth hassles I had instaling eth patch I'm not going to reinstall teh game either for this test

I dunno wh the last 2 posts are about - perhaps you guys could take it to another thread with an appropriate subject line?

[CBR]

Wow wow relax will ya

I do care about game balance

Im actually a strong believer in historical accuracy = better game balance.

I have never said this patch was perfect.

I have already stated in Kocmocs thread what I think about Lancers (and other things)

I have expressed concern about the all cav army being too powerful, but wanted more battles to see the counters as we all need to adjust.

I still see "my" lancers sometimes getting slaughered so some people must be doing something right.



This thread is about fatigue. So lets stick to that ok

Cavalry could and did make repeated charges against infantry units but will ofc get tired quickly as they still do in MTW (Dont know how much was changed in the patch)

Even charge speed for cavalry in MTW is not that fast compared to what a horse can do in real life. (Yes I have never ridden a horse only read books about horses)

Harkonarson made a test, I assumed it was with the patch, and therefore he had to consider the changes made to the cavalry in the patch. (dont know how big the changes were or if they ever were added in the patch and im just better at using cavalry now)

So yes we might still need to adjust cav in a future patch(I really hope we will get more than just one patch)


But I can hardly see how we can get a fruitful discussion if some people absolutely have to put in a few insults in their comments.

I try as much as possible to base my ideas on my (limited)miniature wargaming experience, history books (remember my idea about historical accuracy=game balance) and general strategy/wargaming experience and ofc playing MTW to see what works and what doesnt. I'd wish some other people would do the same.

CBR

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Nov. 11 2002,03:22)]Unfortunately I haven't got an unpatched MTW any more lol - with all eth hassles I had instaling eth patch I'm not going to reinstall teh game either for this test



Yes a test to show the differences between light/medium/heavy cavalry would be nice http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

(just a patched test heh)

CBR

[hoom]

Needs to be the one where all units are constantly running too.
Because the complaint is that cav used to tire while chasing down fleeing enemy and fleeing enemy doesn't stop to take tea.

[Orda Khan]

Horses 1 - Men 0

.....Orda

[Kraxis]

You can't use a comparison where one type of unit rests and the other sprints around. That just yells for strange results, especially with the increased recoveryrates in MTW compared to STW.

[hrvojej]

It all depends on what you're trying to test for. Are you trying to test fatigue over time, or distance covered, or both? If it's the time spent running, I would make everybody run as far as they can without stopping or changing destination, and watch the fatigue bars drop and note the order. If it's the distance, I'd make the cavalry run first, then stop them as soon as they lose a fatigue bar; then make the infantry run until they lose their fatigue bar, and see who got further, regardless of speed. However, an important note would be that you can't control for difference in speed of different units, as this setup doesn't exclude the fact that faster units cover more distance in shorter timespan. Any combination of these, plus the stops can be added if you want to see the combined effect. It all depends on your (research) question, and how you choose to define "endurance".

Also, I would select the units with the same armour level, since fatigue is proportional to armour of the units. Testing for the effect of armour would be much simpler, since the armour doesn't affect the speed.