View Full Version : Creative Assembly what does preferred number of rows do?
first question is:
what does preferred number of rows do? does it have morale effects or anything like that, or is it just what a unit defaults to on deployment etc?
reason i wonder is, i've tried those long strings of shock units and it seems to do well...maybe too well...there is some drawback to it right?
second question:
i'm very confused about spear units, does only the first row fight? or do multiple rows all fight? (you can see a bunch of them doing the animation, but do they all actually have a chance to kill guys?)
does the first row count as a supporting row? or is it rows behind the first that count? (i assume first doesn't count, but want to be sure)
i've seen experienced players say that you shouldn't ever attack with a spear unit, just bring it to a complete stop and let the enemy hit you. yet they have a really nice charge value and being in formation gives them a charge bonus...is it still not worth it?
please forgive me if this is covered extensively somewhere else but all i could find was conjecture, not definative answers.
From the FAQ :
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Rank bonuses for spear/pikemen
Spear and pikemen get rank bonuses to combat. Both apply only if a spear/pike unit is in an orderly formation.
Unit formation can break due to a powerful attack that breaks through your spearmen's ranks, or an unwieldly movement command (turning suddenly). You can protect against broken ranks by using the hold formation command.
The bonus for formation is:
+1 bonus to attack per 2 ranks
+1 bonus to defense per rank
+1 bonus to charge per rank
Spearmen can have up to 2 ranks effective in combat while pikemen can have 4. I believe that these rank bonuses ONLY improve your troop's fighting abilities -- they do NOT increase the number of units that can engage a particular enemy.
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So the back rows don't really fight, but they "support" the front rows-troops.
I remember someone saying that you can actually see if a row is supporting the front row, because if it does it gets the fighting animation.
I think you *can* charge, but you have to be careful not to turn the troops in the last seconds of the charge.
Murmandamus
11-11-2002, 08:06
With spears/pikes, multiple rows do engage in the melee. While looking around on the subject I came across this essay which should cover your second question http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/weapons/spear.html
Actually this is a topic that was extensively debated on the .com forums. Unfortunately I have not found the thread again on .com.
Anyway it has already been confirmed by CA in the startegy guide, and as far as I remeber the last thread on this topic arrived to the same conclusion:
-that supporting ranks DO engage the enemy.
-Spears have 2 supporting ranks i.e rows 1-3 engage the enemy since the first row is "first", and supporting ranks means those ranks behind the "first" rank.
-Pikes have 4 supporting ranks i.e rows 1-5 engage the enemy.
All this info was compiled prior to V1.1 release. I'll see if i can locate the thread.
Cheers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (Murmandamus @ Nov. 11 2002,07:06)]With spears/pikes, multiple rows do engage in the melee. While looking around on the subject I came across this essay which should cover your second question http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/weapons/spear.html
WOW Thx for the awesome link
longjohn2
11-11-2002, 22:58
The default number of rows is the number of rows the unit defaults to when it deploys. It's also the number of ranks the a.i. will use for the unit.
As for spears Taojah has it all correct. Supporting ranks don't engage the enemy directly, but add to the combat strength of the guys in front. It just fitted in better with the combat system to do it that way. Either way, in practise a well formed spear unit fights better in three ranks than in one or two.
Spears and pikes do have a pretty decent charge, but you do have to be careful that they charge straight. Particularly when attacking a moving unit, they may need to turn to get a good contact, and this can mess up their formation.
Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Nov. 11 2002,21:58)]The default number of rows is the number of rows the unit defaults to when it deploys. It's also the number of ranks the a.i. will use for the unit.
As for spears Taojah has it all correct. Supporting ranks don't engage the enemy directly, but add to the combat strength of the guys in front. It just fitted in better with the combat system to do it that way. Either way, in practise a well formed spear unit fights better in three ranks than in one or two.
Spears and pikes do have a pretty decent charge, but you do have to be careful that they charge straight. Particularly when attacking a moving unit, they may need to turn to get a good contact, and this can mess up their formation.
Hello Longjohn
Thank you very much for shedding some light on this subject.
Quite impressive that what Taojah is mentioning and is now backed by you, although this is contradictory to what is stated in the strategy guide, published by Brady Games and apparently endorsed by CA. I must warn you that this strategy guide regularly mentions and quotes the programmers.
Here is a quote from page 40, second last paragraph from bottom of the page. This paragraph refers to supporting ranks:
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"Always remember that spear and pike units gain their combat advantage from their supporting ranks' ability to engage the enemy at the same time as the front rank. This only works if the formation is deep, tight, and holds together. Set your spearmen and pike men to Hold Formation, and be sure to deploy them deep enough to maximize the bonus- 3 or 4 ranks for spearmen, 5 or 6 for pike men."
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On pg 41, in the second paragraph the strategy guide refers to pike men:
"Pikes are such long weapons that [B]4 full rows behind the front rank (that is rows, rows 2 through 5) can strike at the enemy. The sixth row is to provide fresh pikemen to fill in when front row soldiers fall."
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Longjohn I had already discussed this in length in the .com forums before they were hacked. I came to the conclusion that the strategy guide must be correct as it is supported by CA, also CA has already mentioned on the .org forums that the strategy guidee can be relied upon for game information. Is this statement valid ? Clearly there is a something contradictory here which I sense but fail to comprehend.
I'd very much appreciate it if you could please explain this further.
Thanks for your help.
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Hiya
Longjohn there are a lot of areas in this game that are perhaps not adequately explained in either the manual or the strategy guide. Anyway of the two, the strategy guide definetly helps a lot.
I have seen pre-patch discrepancies between the unit stats, morale effects etc., explanations given at various sites and on files available for download from clan/fan sites.
This leads me to another couple of questions:
Which source of inforamtion is realiable and trustworthy ?
Could you please tell us how we can derive the information from the game or where we can find the post patch stats ? I'm a PC amatuer but hope i'll manage if you give me some directions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Aha I found an old post where I get the impression that the strategy guide is/was correct ?
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000079.html
Thanks for your help.
longjohn2
11-12-2002, 01:56
SeljukSinam
You're splitting hairs over wording. Frankly the exact way that the rear rank combat bonus is applied doesn't matter. The important thing is that it is there. Obviously the rear rank guys are considered to have some effect on the enemy, although maybe engaging is to strong a term. In practice, unless you want to get into the finer points of hit probabilty curves, it makes little difference whether the effect of rear rankers is modelled by increasing the effect of the front guy, or doing separete strikes for the rear guys.
Most of the information in the strat guide came from programmers testers and designers at CA, and should be considered reliable. However, our input has been edited and paraphrased and edited for a general audiance, so don't read too much into specific wording.
All the stats for the units are in the file crusaders_unit_prod11.txt. However this'll be hard to make sense of unless you open it in Excell or a similar spreadsheet program.
Just to clear this out as it was very hard to understand until now, and still is a bit.
I think in the days of the demo we were told that spears had two ranks fighting and two supporting ranks. This fit very well as we saw the fighting animation for the first two ranks only. Now we see the first three ranks.
That would of course ring a little bell and that should make us think that there is only one rank fighting with the other two supporting.
That is quite fitting as I could not really understand that Pikes neded eight ranks to be their best.
Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ Nov. 12 2002,00:56)]SeljukSinam
You're splitting hairs over wording. Frankly the exact way that the rear rank combat bonus is applied doesn't matter. The important thing is that it is there. Obviously the rear rank guys are considered to have some effect on the enemy, although maybe engaging is to strong a term. In practice, unless you want to get into the finer points of hit probabilty curves, it makes little difference whether the effect of rear rankers is modelled by increasing the effect of the front guy, or doing separete strikes for the rear guys.
Most of the information in the strat guide came from programmers testers and designers at CA, and should be considered reliable. However, our input has been edited and paraphrased and edited for a general audiance, so don't read too much into specific wording.
All the stats for the units are in the file crusaders_unit_prod11.txt. However this'll be hard to make sense of unless you open it in Excell or a similar spreadsheet program.
Ok I get it, basically the start guide is just trying to say supporting ranks and that's it. Great I understand.
Thx http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
It's interesting because I never had any trouble understanding how the rank support worked. The Strategy Guide clearly states the specific combat effect of the extra ranks for both spears and pikes. Also, the Strategy Guide is still accurate for the v1.1 release. It's actually "more" accurate for v1.1 than v1.0 concerning units because swordsmen have been made more effective against spearmen, and the guide states that swords are effective against spears. All the unit stats given in the Strategy Guide appear to be correct for v1.1.
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