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Gilrandir
08-30-2014, 11:48
Remember Brenus's theory that Russia wants to keep the fighting going, not so much to control Ukraine, but to deny it to NATO.
Brenus was the one who said that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine. So much for his abrasive powers of observation and excruciating skills of prediction.
... Scotland ... is probably akin to a Ukranina Oblast
Unlike Scotland, oblast is a purely administrative unit having no historically grounded borders or separate identity. I would equate it to an American state or a county (British counties wouldn't suit since they are more historically-grounded). There are historical regions in Ukraine (Galicia, Volynya, Podilya (Vynnytsa and Khmelnytsky regions), Slobozhanshchina (modern Sumy, Kharkiv and the north of Luhansk regions), Donbas (modern Donetsk, south of Luhansk and east of Dnipropetrovsk regions) and others, but they don't have any administrative representation (the only exception is probably Transcarpathia).
We don't restrict self determination only to "nations" because that allows larger groups (like the Russians) to declare smaller groups (like Ukrainians) the same as Russians by fiat and then deny them the right to self determination.
Which is what Mr. Huilo said at Seliger youth forum a couple of days ago, quote whatever anyone might claim, Russians and Ukrainains are one people unquote. But in my opinion, a nation can identify itself as such without waiting for others to do it. And DPR (or Novorossia, they are not sure themselves who they are) has failed to do that. People in Donetsk region aren't any different from those a dozen miles to the west in Dnipropetrovsk region or a dozen miles to the north in Kharkiv region.
Seamus Fermanagh
08-30-2014, 17:45
...Unlike Scotland, oblast is a purely administrative unit having no historically grounded borders or separate identity. I would equate it to an American state or a county (British counties wouldn't suit since they are more historically-grounded).
Not accurate regarding U.S. states. Many have significant physical boundaries delineating them and most have diverse and distinct historical pasts despite the overarching commonality. U.S. counties, particularly those associated with states to the West of the Mississippi river, are much more in the "generic" mode you describe. Remember, our Civil War was NOT a war of factions so much as a war between the states. There is a good bit of history there, even if the last century shows more blending than distinction.
Gilrandir
08-31-2014, 06:15
Not accurate regarding U.S. states. Many have significant physical boundaries delineating them and most have diverse and distinct historical pasts despite the overarching commonality.
I spoke of the non-existant (well, at least to me, you may correct me) differences between, say, South and North Dakota, or between Iowa and Nebraska. I guess their inhabitants have as little distinctions as those of Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk regions, so it is nonsense to speak of self-determination of Nebraska on the ground of it having a separate identity within the US.
Remember, our Civil War was NOT a war of factions so much as a war between the states.
I'm not a great specialist in the Civil War, but it seems to me that its participants from, say, Alabama hardly considered themselves ("us") at war with, say, Pennsylvania ("them") rather than viewed the conflict as the one between "us" as the Confederation of southern states and "them" as the Union of northern states, which in my view points rather to factions.
Gilrandir
08-31-2014, 06:33
Which is what Mr. Huilo said at Seliger youth forum a couple of days ago, quote whatever anyone might claim, Russians and Ukrainains are one people unquote.
One more curious thing he said at Seliger:http://www.charter97.org/ru/news/2014/8/29/113370/
In brief: Khazakhstan had never had statehood and it was only Nazarbayev who managed to create it. (A sidenote: the first Kazakh khanate was proclaimed in the 15th century). It seems that every time Putin starts speaking history a trouble of some kind is brewing.
Rhyfelwyr
08-31-2014, 09:23
1. I'm getting tired of reiterating this one: the full title is SELF-DETERMINATION OF NATIONS. If we admit the existence of Donetsk (or Luhansk) nation, we must admit the existence of Dnipropetrovsk, Zaporizhya, Odesa and other "nations" within Ukraine which is obviously ridiculous.
A perfectly good case can be made that eastern Ukraine (and indeed all Ukraine) was historically part of the Russian nation. Eg, the Kievan Rus - indeed Kiev was at one time the capital of all the Rus territories.
Equally, there are perfectly good precedents for a distinct Ukrainian nationhood - eg, the independence wars of the Cossacks against Poland-Lithuania.
My point is not to say Ukraine is Russian - my point is that the Ukrainian nationalists do not have a monopoly on history or nationhood.
2. The previous government was as much unrepresentative including representatives of only one oblast - Donetsk. Yet no one had seemed disturbed about it for four years. Meanwhile the current minister of the interior represents the east - he is from Kharkiv.
Was Yanucovych democratically elected in a Ukraine-wide election? Did not his election represent the wishes of a majority of Ukrainians?
If you feel that people from the east of your country cannot represent you, then that says to me that you do not see Ukraine as a sufficiently homogeneous and integrated unit to function as a modern democratic nation. Maybe if the east was to separate you could get a Western-Ukrainian government which you might feel could represent you better.
3. I would dearly like to see proofs of current Ukrainian government hinting or saying openly something which can be evaluated as "hostile" to any part of the country (including the East).
OK - this very year the unelected revolutionary parliament voted to overturn a law that gave the Russian language, as the language of much of Eastern Ukraine/Crimea, official status. The message is clear - Russian speakers are not welcome as Ukrainian citizens.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-31-2014, 11:28
OK - this very year the unelected revolutionary parliament voted to overturn a law that gave the Russian language, as the language of much of Eastern Ukraine/Crimea, official status. The message is clear - Russian speakers are not welcome as Ukrainian citizens.
What Revolutionary Parliament?
The Parliament is the same one as was elected, it's just the ministers that were changed.
“Brenus was the one who said that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine. So much for his abrasive powers of observation and excruciating skills of prediction.” And Ukraine is invaded? Does the Russian Flag float on Minsk? Does Russia built bases on Ukrainian soil? Get a grip, no one wants Ukraine, sorry, nor EU, USA (if they have to pay for it) or Russia. So my theory is still valid: as soon as actual Ukrainian Power is near to win, small reinforcement and hoops, all around again.
But the same token, you might now take back your claim that Russian troops were involved at the early stage, as it is now clear what happen when they are engaged… Debacle for Ukrainian Armed Forces/Militias…
The fact is you are so obsess by a big PLAN and EVIL Putin that you can’t even envisage that, like the West, he reacts and acts on day by day. He might decide to invade now, if NATO comes with Tanks (pre-emptive strikes, someone?). I don’t think he will, as he doesn’t need Ukraine, he needs a buffer. This can be obtained either by Federalism (political solution) or permanent guerrilla/unrest.
“it was a political crisis which the government completely failed to handle” I would say it was a social unrest (for pensions, jobs, against corruption) that became a political crisis (as in Arab Springs) then became a Revolution (still as in Arab Spring). Still as in the Arab Springs, big power(s) intervened then it went out of control.
“From the beginning the rebels displayed Russian flags and symbols,” From the beginning of the Rebellion, not from the beginning of the unrest: It is nice to try to cut in 2 the events, but the second didn’t start at the same time and is following the first. If the new power would have sent the right signals, it might not have happened. They raised the Russian Flag as an answer to a text to cancelled their languages, and fear of the ones who took power in Kiev (and I don’t want to discuss the rationality of their fear).
“the rest of the country was PLANNING AN ELECTION.” Great, except of course that the previous and ejected President has been elected, so, so much for the confidence in a Democratic process. “Or have you forgotten that?”
Just come back from holidays, and still the same...:yes:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-31-2014, 14:16
“Brenus was the one who said that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine. So much for his abrasive powers of observation and excruciating skills of prediction.” And Ukraine is invaded? Does the Russian Flag float on Minsk? Does Russia built bases on Ukrainian soil? Get a grip, no one wants Ukraine, sorry, nor EU, USA (if they have to pay for it) or Russia. So my theory is still valid: as soon as actual Ukrainian Power is near to win, small reinforcement and hoops, all around again.
But the same token, you might now take back your claim that Russian troops were involved at the early stage, as it is now clear what happen when they are engaged… Debacle for Ukrainian Armed Forces/Militias…
The fact is you are so obsess by a big PLAN and EVIL Putin that you can’t even envisage that, like the West, he reacts and acts on day by day. He might decide to invade now, if NATO comes with Tanks (pre-emptive strikes, someone?). I don’t think he will, as he doesn’t need Ukraine, he needs a buffer. This can be obtained either by Federalism (political solution) or permanent guerrilla/unrest.
Russia wanted the base in the Crimea so much, they annexed it.
You get a grip.
“it was a political crisis which the government completely failed to handle” I would say it was a social unrest (for pensions, jobs, against corruption) that became a political crisis (as in Arab Springs) then became a Revolution (still as in Arab Spring). Still as in the Arab Springs, big power(s) intervened then it went out of control.
I don't consider the President abdicating Office and then being impeached a revolution - I consider it a political crisis, a serious one, but not a revolution.
What is happening in Eastern Ukraine, with the complete overthrow of the state, is a revolution.
“From the beginning the rebels displayed Russian flags and symbols,” From the beginning of the Rebellion, not from the beginning of the unrest: It is nice to try to cut in 2 the events, but the second didn’t start at the same time and is following the first. If the new power would have sent the right signals, it might not have happened. They raised the Russian Flag as an answer to a text to cancelled their languages, and fear of the ones who took power in Kiev (and I don’t want to discuss the rationality of their fear).
Ukrainian is not a recognised language in Russia - why should Russian necessarily be a recognised language in Ukraine?
Many Russians are first-generation immigrants who happened to be in Ukraine when the USSR collapsed, likewise Lithuania etc.
There was a chap in the guardian complaining about how Lithuania requires some knowledge of Lithuanian for a passport, and how as a result his wife's mother was "trapped" in a Lithuanian care home with no proper pesnion. Where was this man's wife born?
Svestopol, in Crimea.
“the rest of the country was PLANNING AN ELECTION.” Great, except of course that the previous and ejected President has been elected, so, so much for the confidence in a Democratic process. “Or have you forgotten that?”
Just come back from holidays, and still the same...:yes:
He wasn't ejected, he fled. Had he literally been forced from office I might be more inclined to agree with you, but he jumped ship and fled to Russia whilst still claiming to be President.
In other news - Putin says we must discuss "Statehood" for Eastern Ukraine.
Presumably so that the region can become independent and then join Russia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29003116
I predict war.
A perfectly good case can be made that eastern Ukraine (and indeed all Ukraine) was historically part of the Russian nation. Eg, the Kievan Rus - indeed Kiev was at one time the capital of all the Rus territories.
Cool, I'll make sure to bring up that point the next time I visit Estonia and Latvia.
Seamus Fermanagh
08-31-2014, 16:08
...I predict war.
Isn't this just a little bit like predicting war in April of 1939? Even Arthur Neville wasn't saying "peace in our time" at that juncture....
Sarmatian
08-31-2014, 17:07
Ukrainian is not a recognised language in Russia - why should Russian necessarily be a recognised language in Ukraine?
Many Russians are first-generation immigrants who happened to be in Ukraine when the USSR collapsed, likewise Lithuania etc.
There was a chap in the guardian complaining about how Lithuania requires some knowledge of Lithuanian for a passport, and how as a result his wife's mother was "trapped" in a Lithuanian care home with no proper pesnion. Where was this man's wife born?
Yeah, pretty much same arguments were given when it came to Albanian language in Kosovo, but the West was unanimous that it was a gross violation of human rights, but when it was applied in Baltic states against ethnic Russians, all was well and democratic. Give me a break.
Also, when it comes to languages, it's about internal situation of the country in question. Just because Italian is an official language in Switzerland, doesn't mean that German, French or Romansch have to be official languages in Italy. Italy is not oppressing Swiss nationals.
He wasn't ejected, he fled. Had he literally been forced from office I might be more inclined to agree with you, but he jumped ship and fled to Russia whilst still claiming to be President.
In other news - Putin says we must discuss "Statehood" for Eastern Ukraine.
Presumably so that the region can become independent and then join Russia.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29003116
I predict war.
Will you stop beating a dead horse, please? Cruelty to animals is frowned upon, even metaphorical ones.
“Russia wanted the base in the Crimea so much, they annexed it.” Russia had a base in Ukraine and made sure to keep it. You get a grip.
“He wasn't ejected, he fled.” So did Louis XVI, Nicolas I and others who had to pack in hurry.
“I predict war.” Nope. No war will happen, as you need some kind of pretext to attack Russia, and more than what was presented. Then even if Russia take Kiev, it will be still no war as we don’t have the means to do it, thanks to the cuts in defence spending, cancelation of Conscription and professionalization of Armies in “light” and airborne forces…
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-31-2014, 20:23
Isn't this just a little bit like predicting war in April of 1939? Even Arthur Neville wasn't saying "peace in our time" at that juncture....
Lets put it this way - I'm sorting my medical problems and revising my decision to stop running.
Mind, I suppose if I got fat they might let me drive the tank.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-31-2014, 20:26
Italy is not oppressing Swiss nationals.
Oh, so you do get it?
Russia oppresses everyone - Ukraine avoided having Russia as a co-equal language to make it clear Ukraine was not Russia. Given how the Russians have expressed confusion over this "not Russia" thing, I'd say they have a point.
In any case, at this point Russia is laying the rhetorical groundwork for annexing Eastern Ukraine.
Kadagar_AV
08-31-2014, 20:27
Lets put it this way - I'm sorting my medical problems and revising my decision to stop running.
Mind, I suppose if I got fat they might let me drive the tank.
Sidenote: Is it true that all British tanks since WW2 has come equipped with tea making facilities? Like, battlefield tea?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-31-2014, 20:32
Sidenote: Is it true that all British tanks since WW2 has come equipped with tea making facilities? Like, battlefield tea?
Yup.
It's so they didn't have to dismount the tank to brew up. Also good for the rations these days too.
The Warrior has one too.
Kadagar_AV
08-31-2014, 20:37
I knew it already and could have confirmed with a google search... But it's just SO MUCH BETTER to have you actually write it...
Silly limeys...
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
08-31-2014, 21:04
I knew it already and could have confirmed with a google search... But it's just SO MUCH BETTER to have you actually write it...
Silly limeys...
The British Army has run on this one basic principle, and been largely victorious, for sever al hundred years - viz:
When you attack British soldiers, or when they must themselves go into action...
You have interrupted their tea break, this has multiple, catastrophic, consequences, including but not limited to:
1. Stale/soggy digestives depending on climate.
2. cold tea
3. Spilled tea
4. Wasted tea
If the attack continues for an extended period of time someone will be detailed to brew up and pass around a mug of tea, so as to ensure reserves of Moral Fibre do not become too low.
Kadagar_AV
08-31-2014, 21:10
The British Army has run on this one basic principle, and been largely victorious, for sever al hundred years - viz:
When you attack British soldiers, or when they must themselves go into action...
You have interrupted their tea break, this has multiple, catastrophic, consequences, including but not limited to:
1. Stale/soggy digestives depending on climate.
2. cold tea
3. Spilled tea
4. Wasted tea
If the attack continues for an extended period of time someone will be detailed to brew up and pass around a mug of tea, so as to ensure reserves of Moral Fibre do not become too low.
I honestly think it's as badass as it is English...
As a sidenote: deterring for the enemies... Not only did your friend "Muhammed" just get blown up... He was so by a guy probably either sipping on a tea, or about to sip on a tea. If that's not discouraging, I don't know what is :)
Cool, I'll make sure to bring up that point the next time I visit Estonia and Latvia.
You mean those countries that treat their ethnically russian population like outcasts?
http://m.in.rbth.com/world/2013/04/02/russians_in_the_baltics_forever_foreigners_23433.html
Ethnic Russians in Latvia in 1989, just a couple of years before the Soviet collapse, formed was 34 percent of the population, in Estonia –30 percent and 9.4 percent in Lithuania. Most of them voted for independence from Moscow, when such referendums were held in 1990. But they didn’t become equal citizens everywhere like they expected. Only in Lithuania were they given citizenship automatically. Those who had no family ties to Latvia and Estonia prior to World War II did not receive citizenship. They were classified as “aliens,” non-citizens with passports of a different colour without any political rights. They could hardly travel outside their resident countries until the EU and Russia specially opened access for them. When it came to taxes and duties, they had the same obligations as the majority community.
The US should bomb them, no taxation without representation!
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-01-2014, 02:54
You mean those countries that treat their ethnically russian population like outcasts?
http://m.in.rbth.com/world/2013/04/02/russians_in_the_baltics_forever_foreigners_23433.html
The US should bomb them, no taxation without representation!
That's rubbish.
Latvia and Estonia granted citizenship to anyone who could speak Latvian or Estonian and show a grasp of the country's history.
That reminds me - that anecdote I told earlier was about Latvia, not Lithuania.
How did that guy's wife get a Latvian passport when her mother couldn't? She went to a Latvian university before independence and knew Latvian.
Btw - she was a school teacher and this English idiot was bemoaning the fact that, post independence, the Russians teachers in Latvia had to teach in Russian!.
Again - remember that many of these people were first-generation immigrants.
Tell me - can I get a German passport without being able to speak a word of German?
Crazed Rabbit
09-01-2014, 06:01
And Ukraine is invaded? Does the Russian Flag float on Minsk? Does Russia built bases on Ukrainian soil? Get a grip, no one wants Ukraine, sorry, nor EU, USA (if they have to pay for it) or Russia.
So, Russian tanks driven by Russian soldiers crossing the border doesn't count as an invasion? Wow.
It is also about the right of the Donestk Republic to self-determination
So any armed group of men backed by a hostile foreign power taking over a town suddenly means it's a 'republic' and they're exercising their 'right to self determination'? Are you serious? Is this some joke? You're supporting the man who made it illegal to talk about self-determination for parts of Russia. (http://en.ria.ru/russia/20131229/186063866/Putin-Signs-Law-Punishing-Separatism-with-Jail.html)
Anyways, I read here ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29007631 ) that the EU threatens more sanctions if Russia doesn't stop invading Ukraine - in a week. Good grief.
We should pull out of Nato, pull our bases out of Europe and let them face the Russian bear on their own. Maybe a jolt of fear that they might be in danger, and not some 'out of the way' country they don't actually care about, could galvanize them into action. Because it seems like all their promises are worth less than the paper they're printed on.
CR
“So, Russian tanks driven by Russian soldiers crossing the border doesn't count as an invasion?” No, that is an incursion as they went back. A little bit similar of air strikes, helping the ones you support…
“We should pull out of Nato, pull our bases out of Europe and let them face the Russian bear on their own.” Agree, you should do that.
rory_20_uk
09-01-2014, 10:30
So... it's an invasion if you win, merely an incursion if you loose.
Rightful leaders if you like them, puppets if you don't
Legal if you're doing it, illegal if you're not (or have finished doing it and so who cares?)
Minority whose views must be respected in other people's countries, dissident extremist terrorists whose views must be crushed in your own.
~:smoking:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-01-2014, 10:40
Anyways, I read here ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29007631 ) that the EU threatens more sanctions if Russia doesn't stop invading Ukraine - in a week. Good grief.
Obama supports it - because we don't want war, and neither do you.
We should pull out of Nato, pull our bases out of Europe and let them face the Russian bear on their own. Maybe a jolt of fear that they might be in danger, and not some 'out of the way' country they don't actually care about, could galvanize them into action. Because it seems like all their promises are worth less than the paper they're printed on.
This is why NATO exists, because you guys have a greater tendency to being Craven than we do.
Blow up some rag-heads with cruise missiles? Sure!
Tank war in Europe? Wo man! We didn't sign up for that!
You mean those countries that treat their ethnically russian population like outcasts?
http://m.in.rbth.com/world/2013/04/0...ers_23433.html (http://m.in.rbth.com/world/2013/04/02/russians_in_the_baltics_forever_foreigners_23433.html)
Yeah, because the Russian minority is one large homogenous group. (http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/russians-estonia-twenty-years-after?fb_action_ids=10204353951430333&fb_action_types=og.recommends)
At Tartu University, I met a girl from Latvia who was of Russian descent (her grandfather being an old believer) and we had a discussion about the situation of Russophones in Latvia (which is worse than in Estonia). It's definitely not great, but it's not as terrible as that article makes it out to be.
Which brings me to the following: I checked the background of this "Russia and India Report", which is apparently a part of a newspaper called "Russia Beyond the Headlines", which is sponsored by Rossiskiya Gazeta, which is the Russian government's newspaper. Draw your own conclusions.
EDIT: Besides Husar, come on, what do you really know about the Baltic states?
Apparently, The Simpsons predicted (http://vimeo.com/87939821)what is now happening in Ukraine.
Gilrandir
09-01-2014, 14:58
A perfectly good case can be made that eastern Ukraine (and indeed all Ukraine) was historically part of the Russian nation. Eg, the Kievan Rus - indeed Kiev was at one time the capital of all the Rus territories.
Equally, there are perfectly good precedents for a distinct Ukrainian nationhood - eg, the independence wars of the Cossacks against Poland-Lithuania.
My point is not to say Ukraine is Russian - my point is that the Ukrainian nationalists do not have a monopoly on history or nationhood.
Historically Ukraine was part of Kyivan Rus, then Rzeczpospolita, then part of it was included into the Russian Empire, part into Austro-Hungary and part was owned by Crimean khanate. So why don't others put forward the claims as Russia does?
As for Ukrainian nationalists writing a history of Ukraine (especially Eastern), I would like to hear a sober opinion that you trust and consider non-nationalistic which would substantiate the existence of a separate Eastern-Ukrainian (or Novorossian, if you prefer) nation, nationality, ethnicity, sub-ethnicity and so on.
Was Yanucovych democratically elected in a Ukraine-wide election? Did not his election represent the wishes of a majority of Ukrainians?
If you feel that people from the east of your country cannot represent you, then that says to me that you do not see Ukraine as a sufficiently homogeneous and integrated unit to function as a modern democratic nation. Maybe if the east was to separate you could get a Western-Ukrainian government which you might feel could represent you better.
Can you imagine, for instance, the US government which consists exclusively of Californians or Alaskans? Or the Brithish one consisting only of Yorkshireans? But such approach has been practised in Ukraine for 4 years. It is not about homogeneity of the nation, but about the choice of the government.
OK - this very year the unelected revolutionary parliament voted to overturn a law that gave the Russian language, as the language of much of Eastern Ukraine/Crimea, official status. The message is clear - Russian speakers are not welcome as Ukrainian citizens.
You have had your answer as to the unelected and revolutionary, I guess. As for the language law it was vetoed by the acting president and repealed by the parliament within a few days. Somehow other Russian-speaking areas felt (and still feel) not threatened in this and in all other aspects. It took Russia to let Donbas be scared into frenzy and be reaping the consequences.
“Brenus was the one who said that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine. So much for his abrasive powers of observation and excruciating skills of prediction.” And Ukraine is invaded? Does the Russian Flag float on Minsk?
I think there is Byelorussian flag flying over Minsk, but who knows, perhaps you speak words of ill omen.
Get a grip, no one wants Ukraine, sorry, nor EU, USA (if they have to pay for it) or Russia. So my theory is still valid: as soon as actual Ukrainian Power is near to win, small reinforcement and hoops, all around again.
The fact is you are so obsess by a big PLAN and EVIL Putin that you can’t even envisage that, like the West, he reacts and acts on day by day. He might decide to invade now, if NATO comes with Tanks (pre-emptive strikes, someone?). I don’t think he will, as he doesn’t need Ukraine, he needs a buffer. This can be obtained either by Federalism (political solution) or permanent guerrilla/unrest.
I heard information that Russian passports are being distrubuted in Donetsk. Moreover, your theory doesn't take into account the situation in Crimea. It is reported to experience lack of food stuffs (most notably dairy products) which become too expensive when transported by ferry from Kuban by way of Kerch.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/business/international/crimea-wants-out-of/1315600.html
Perhaps you don't know about the problems this ferry is experiencing due to the amount of people it is used by.
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-crimea-kerch-tourists-long-lines/26541505.html
This, and Russian offensive in the south makes one think Putin is adapting his former strategy (or indeed following plan B) and wants to have a land bridge joining Crimea with Russia and pusining it further to Transdniestria, if possible.
But the same token, you might now take back your claim that Russian troops were involved at the early stage, as it is now clear what happen when they are engaged… Debacle for Ukrainian Armed Forces/Militias…
Russian troops had been engaged on a small case chiefly as GRU special assignment units, now it comes to regular army including conscipts.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/what-does-russia-tell-the-mothers-of-soldiers-killed-in-ukraine-not-much/
Besides, how do you interpret the latest successful offensive of the separatists? People who were being beaten down suddenly learned how to fight and Russians have nothing to do it.
Just come back from holidays, and still the same...:yes:
You said the thread was dead some 20 pages back. Does it the putrid smell of it that attracts you?
You mean those countries that treat their ethnically russian population like outcasts?
If they are such despicable outcasts, why don't they leave those nazi countries? I'll tell you why - because they are better off where they are. Leaving for needy, albeit homelike Russia doesn't seem an option to them. When it comes to full stomach, they are ready to be as outcast as it might be.
Gilrandir
09-01-2014, 15:11
No war will happen, as you need some kind of pretext to attack Russia, and more than what was presented.
For Ukraine the war is already there.
Crazed Rabbit
09-01-2014, 15:14
Obama supports it - because we don't want war, and neither do you.
I don't want war; I just support strong sanctions, applied immediately, not yet another pitiful warning of a strong response yet to come if Russia continues invading a sovereign nation.
No, that is an incursion as they went back.
So what you're saying is the Russian flag could be waving over Kiev but you'd still be denying it's an invasion, and groping for some rhetorical way to deny reality.
CR
At Tartu University, I met a girl from Latvia who was of Russian descent (her grandfather being an old believer) and we had a discussion about the situation of Russophones in Latvia (which is worse than in Estonia). It's definitely not great, but it's not as terrible as that article makes it out to be.
Latvians I spoke to, complained a lot about the Russian minority wanting to re-oppress them, refusing to speak anything but Russian, and see themselves being above the law. When I was over there, even had a random Russian curse at me in English for simply being English, I looked a little confused and they said "Don't mind her, that is a Russian, always like that".
Latvians I spoke to, complained a lot about the Russian minority wanting to re-oppress them, refusing to speak anything but Russian, and see themselves being above the law.
There is quite a bit of resentment from both sides towards eachother, mainly because there is that part of the Latvian population that intrinsically (and wrongly) relates Russophones with the Soviet Union, even those whose heritage stems back to pre-Soviet times (to either the exile of the Old Believers, or the migration period as a result of Russification policies in the 19th century).
In any case, the situation is rather complicated. I personally have met plenty of Latvians who have no trouble with any Russians living in Latvia, and don't hold them in any way accountable for the actions committed by the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire. Then again, there is still quite a bit of animosity, but I'm generally quite optimistic for the future. In Estonia, the number of bilingual Estonian-Russian speakers seems to be growing, and generally I find that among the younger population, there isn't really that much animosity towards Russian Estonians. I've even found that many people actually wish they spoke Russian better, so when Russians are unable to communicate with native Estonian speakers, it's usually not out of spite, but simply because many young Estonians are incapable of conversing in Russian. Interestingly, in my experience, when the older Latvian and Estonian generations meet, they usually communicate in Russian.
EDIT: where did you go to in Latvia?
Kagemusha
09-01-2014, 16:03
Apparently Ukraine has lost Novoazovsk and also Luhansk airport is now in the hands of the separatist.
What we know from various sources is that at the end of the last week column of 100 or so armoured vehicles entered Ukraine from Russia. Those seem to include some upgraded T-72 MBT´s. Such force is akin to 1-2 Mech Battalions with supporting elements. Apparently the opponent who took Luhansk airport today from the Ukrainian government para´s was heavily armoured according to them, so it could be that one part of the force took Novoazovsk and is aiming next to Mariupol, while the second part of the force is operating near Luhansk, helping the other separatist forces to push back the forces of the Ukrainian government.
I am positive that these new forces are indeed from Russia, what i am not sure of is if they are indeed Russian army troops. My bet is rather that they are "volunteers" armed and trained at Rostov, with Russian equipment and quite likely with Russian "Instructors". If this force would have been an armoured task force made of elements of Russian Motor rifle Brigade. We would have witnessed quite more likely T-90´s and BMP-3´s. Also the lack of Russian air operations suggests that the current force is not part of Russian regular forces and thus my guess is that the force is deployed to help the separatist forces to keep the conflict going rather then a serious effort to invade Ukraine.
In any case. I am quite sure that Moscow wants the bolstered separatist force to create a land connection to Crimea. Maybe Kremlin has evaluated that the Maidan government was getting the upper hand in the conflict and they wanted to even the odds back to their advantage.
That's rubbish.
Latvia and Estonia granted citizenship to anyone who could speak Latvian or Estonian and show a grasp of the country's history.
That reminds me - that anecdote I told earlier was about Latvia, not Lithuania.
How did that guy's wife get a Latvian passport when her mother couldn't? She went to a Latvian university before independence and knew Latvian.
Btw - she was a school teacher and this English idiot was bemoaning the fact that, post independence, the Russians teachers in Latvia had to teach in Russian!.
Again - remember that many of these people were first-generation immigrants.
Tell me - can I get a German passport without being able to speak a word of German?
It's not about not speaking a word, the requirements were artificially set extremely high to keep the ethnic russians from getting citizenship. They had to amend it when they joined the EU because it was deemed too draconian but apparently the standard is still relatively high.
And then it also doesn't really help if they prevent you from learning the language in the first place:
http://www.minorityrights.org/2447/estonia/russians.html
Non-Estonians, especially Russians, allege occupational, salary and housing discrimination because of Estonian language requirements. Those who desire language instruction confront problems stemming from an insufficient number of qualified teachers, lack of funds, poor educational infrastructure and an examination process which some allege is arbitrary.
So... it's an invasion if you win, merely an incursion if you loose.
Rightful leaders if you like them, puppets if you don't
Legal if you're doing it, illegal if you're not (or have finished doing it and so who cares?)
Minority whose views must be respected in other people's countries, dissident extremist terrorists whose views must be crushed in your own.
~:smoking:
Yes, that's the usual western way of arguing and now we're mad that Putin has learned how to do it, just as our usual MO would suggest:
It's defending freedom and democracy when Bush/Obama does it, it's a filthy heinous dictator lie/crime when Putin does it.
Gilrandir
09-01-2014, 16:35
I don't want war; I just support strong sanctions, applied immediately, not yet another pitiful warning of a strong response yet to come if Russia continues invading a sovereign nation.
I'm not a specialist in this sphere (perhaps there are some who will correct me), but I heard that if the West really wanted to hurt Russia it should deny it the system called "short money" or something like that. It would mean that Russian banks can't take any short-term (one day) loans or credits which would have the Russian bank system lying down within a few days.
Also the lack of Russian air operations suggests that the current force is not part of Russian regular forces and thus my guess is that the force is deployed to help the separatist forces to keep the conflict going rather then a serious effort to invade Ukraine.
Yesterday Russian aircraft attacked Ukrainian battalion Aidar's positions in Luhansk region. I think Russia is getting warmer on it.
If you want a quick update on the latest developments I refer you to the link offered by Viking.
http://liveuamap.com/e/2014/23-of-august-russians-have-stolen-topaz-plant-equipment-sigint?ll=48.012951233807975;37.81159400939893&zoom=10
It (beside the map) has a newsband which is pretty accurate and is corroborated by other sources I get.
rory_20_uk
09-01-2014, 16:51
Given that the USSR tried to destroy the culture of Estonia and its fellows, I'm not surprised they're not thrilled about having masses of people who want their culture to be run by another one. In the UK we are slowly realising that not everybody is lovely and wants to be integrated, and perhaps being able to speak the language before giving passports isn't that bad an idea...
Yes, that's the usual western way of arguing and now we're mad that Putin has learned how to do it, just as our usual MO would suggest:
It's defending freedom and democracy when Bush/Obama does it, it's a filthy heinous dictator lie/crime when Putin does it.
Tom Lehrer - send the Marines? T'was ever thus.
So, we all do it and the only things that really matter is the outcome wanted and the perceived risk to get it. Russia did a great job in the Crimea, and unsurprisingly wants more.
Russia definately wants unrest to continue. And might even think that unrest where all the Nationalist loons can go to die is no bad thing. But taking ownership of the area would land them with a load of problems and little gain.
~:smoking:
Pannonian
09-01-2014, 18:03
It's not about not speaking a word, the requirements were artificially set extremely high to keep the ethnic russians from getting citizenship. They had to amend it when they joined the EU because it was deemed too draconian but apparently the standard is still relatively high.
And then it also doesn't really help if they prevent you from learning the language in the first place:
http://www.minorityrights.org/2447/estonia/russians.html
Why can't they just do what the other Europeans do, and speak English?
It's not about not speaking a word, the requirements were artificially set extremely high to keep the ethnic russians from getting citizenship. They had to amend it when they joined the EU because it was deemed too draconian but apparently the standard is still relatively high.
And then it also doesn't really help if they prevent you from learning the language in the first place:
http://www.minorityrights.org/2447/e.../russians.html (http://www.minorityrights.org/2447/estonia/russians.html)
Crock.
The Estonian government has been putting measures in place that allows Estonian Russians to go to Russian-language schools, which are actually of really high quality: Tallinn's and Narva's Humanitarian Gymnasiums were rated 7th and 9th respectively, both Russian schools.
Additionally, especially on the digital front, there has been a tremendous increase in studying possibilities for Russians who want to learn Estonian. The website keeleklikk.ee, which is of excellent quality, offers 16 Estonian language courses in Russian (and is currently expanding and offering en English translation).
I'm obviously less aware of the situation in Latvia and Lithuania, so I'm less capable of commenting on that, but when it comes to Estonia, I can assure you that the government has been taking big steps towards integrating Russians into Estonian society, as long as they are willing to integrat-e. I spoke to an Estonian of Russian origins on Facebook today, and she mentioned that "those who are willing to integrate, usually do" and "those who identify as Russian-Russian can go [expletive deleted] themselves", and she was raised in a Russophone environment until she was like 10, so yeah.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Why can't they just do what the other Europeans do, and speak English?
Pohhui, kõik peavad pigem eesti keelt räägima.
I just remembered that this summer the Estonian minister for Education, Jevgeni Ossonovski, took an Estonian language exam himself (http://news.err.ee/v/society/120b56e9-c8f5-4b99-affc-51cbc57f84a0), in order to see if it was too difficult for foreigners to take. He scored 99%. As I said earlier, draw your own conclusions.
Crock.
The Estonian government has been putting measures in place that allows Estonian Russians to go to Russian-language schools, which are actually of really high quality: Tallinn's and Narva's Humanitarian Gymnasiums were rated 7th and 9th respectively, both Russian schools.
Additionally, especially on the digital front, there has been a tremendous increase in studying possibilities for Russians who want to learn Estonian. The website keeleklikk.ee, which is of excellent quality, offers 16 Estonian language courses in Russian (and is currently expanding and offering en English translation).
I'm obviously less aware of the situation in Latvia and Lithuania, so I'm less capable of commenting on that, but when it comes to Estonia, I can assure you that the government has been taking big steps towards integrating Russians into Estonian society, as long as they are willing to integrat-e. I spoke to an Estonian of Russian origins on Facebook today, and she mentioned that "those who are willing to integrate, usually do" and "those who identify as Russian-Russian can go [expletive deleted] themselves", and she was raised in a Russophone environment until she was like 10, so yeah.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Russian schools that teach in Russian don't help a lot with giving them voting rights and websites with addresses that noone can spell don't help older people either. Your argument is entirely based on your study abroad experience in that country and you are biased as usual. If talking to single people about an issue counts for anything, then the West has been financing the entire Maidan movement because I talked to someone with a relevant background and she told me that.
Russian schools that teach in Russian don't help a lot with giving them voting rights and websites with addresses that noone can spell don't help older people either.
I didn't study abroad in Estonia, I lived there for four months, two in the winter, and two in the summer.
And you didn't really pay attention: these gymnasiums are required by law to teach students Estonian. In Russian! Isn't that amazing?
As for voting rights: where do you get the idea that Russians are not allowed to vote? There is the issue of there being Russians who don't have a passport, but I've never denied that this is a serious problem. However, those Russians that hold Estonian passports are treated as Estonian citizens under Estonian law.
Nobody is saying that there aren't serious problems when it comes to the situation of Russians in the Baltic states, but you're giving off this image that Russians are on the verge of actively being persecuted, which is not true.
[...]you are biased as usual. If talking to single people about an issue counts for anything
Yeah, no, my ex-girlfriend's father is a sociology professor at Tartu University, who has actually worked a lot on issues like this. Also, he supports Russian being made an official language. So how's that for your bias?
As for my sources, they're based on Estonian-language newspapers, private communication with actual Russian Estonians, and actually having studied the history of Estonia in university.
What are yours?
“Does it the putrid smell of it that attracts you?” Yeap :“So much for his abrasive powers of observation and excruciating skills of prediction.” Sorry, couldn't resist.:shame:
There is the issue of there being Russians who don't have a passport, but I've never denied that this is a serious problem.
That's what I said, what are you arguing about then?
Nobody is saying that there aren't serious problems when it comes to the situation of Russians in the Baltic states, but you're giving off this image that Russians are on the verge of actively being persecuted, which is not true.
I never mentioned or implied persecution, I just mentioned that the Baltic states are not as glorious as you make them out to be.
EDIT: where did you go to in Latvia?
Riga, had my new years there, was dating a latvian at the time. This was new Years of.. 2009? or 2010 though.
There didn't seem any 'real' resentment, I think i over blew it in my description. But it seemed that the Russians were troublemakers but they qualified it with "Not were all like that" and such, apparently the highest crime-rate was in the Russian dominated areas, which sounds like a statistic an American says about 'black people'. They were pro-European too, so as you said, they might hold some grudge against the USSR and those days in the past.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-01-2014, 21:55
Given that the USSR tried to destroy the culture of Estonia and its fellows, I'm not surprised they're not thrilled about having masses of people who want their culture to be run by another one. In the UK we are slowly realising that not everybody is lovely and wants to be integrated, and perhaps being able to speak the language before giving passports isn't that bad an idea...
Tom Lehrer - send the Marines? T'was ever thus.
So, we all do it and the only things that really matter is the outcome wanted and the perceived risk to get it. Russia did a great job in the Crimea, and unsurprisingly wants more.
Russia definately wants unrest to continue. And might even think that unrest where all the Nationalist loons can go to die is no bad thing. But taking ownership of the area would land them with a load of problems and little gain.
~:smoking:
I think that we can't make assumptions based on Western cost/benefit concepts.
You're measuring the "risk" inherent in annexing more of Ukraine based on an analysis of its economic usefulness.
I think Putin is more concerned with the loss of face if Russians die without territorial gain, and his own internal map of Russia that differs from the one in an atlas - it's bigger.
Sarmatian
09-01-2014, 22:12
"those who are willing to integrate, usually do" and "those who identify as Russian-Russian can go [expletive deleted] themselves", and she was raised in a Russophone environment until she was like 10, so yeah.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
The "assimilate or sod off" is quite contrary to the what would be a democratic and civilized way of dealing with it. Serbia was bombed 15 years ago for applying the same standard to Albanians.
Maybe the situation is getting better now, I do believe it is, but the fact is Baltic states and Poland created oppressive laws which sole purpose was to exclude Russians living there from having any say, and the idea that it somehow justified because of past oppression is even more ludicrous.
rory_20_uk
09-01-2014, 22:28
The "assimilate or sod off" is quite contrary to the what would be a democratic and civilized way of dealing with it. Serbia was bombed 15 years ago for applying the same standard to Albanians.
Maybe the situation is getting better now, I do believe it is, but the fact is Baltic states and Poland created oppressive laws which sole purpose was to exclude Russians living there from having any say, and the idea that it somehow justified because of past oppression is even more ludicrous.
You were pro Russian they are anti-Russian. We were also doing the whole "be nice to Muslims and they'll be nice to us" phase.
Do you really think that the West is fair?
~:smoking:
Seamus Fermanagh
09-02-2014, 01:02
I'm getting pretty tired of being right. Between what's about to happen in Iraq/Syria, and what's about to happen in Ukraine, people need to be paying attention. Don't forget about Chinese Air Defense Zone either. The possibility of a conventional war between Nuclear Powers, while totally absurd, seems to be what will happen shortly, and should such a war break out the entire world will try to take sides and wrangle the most out of it. The world may finally be numb to the threat of Nuclear War, assuming that no state has the cojones to do such a thing. Putin may even think he can engage the west in an actual war without nukes being used. I'd recommend people stop being partisan and recognize the problem: There's a bloc out there trying to change the status quo in a big way, and Putin is the muscle at the moment. If things continue to escalate, we may find out who the other players are in a bad way.
Keep an eye on the news, I suppose. :hide:
My point was that his "prediction" seemed to be like predicting that war was coming in April of 1939 as Germany was invading Czechoslovakia and going past the Munich appeasement.
This was has already engulfed Ukraine.
Shaka_Khan
09-02-2014, 02:21
I know a Russian exchange student who used to work part time at a cafe. She returned to Russia last month. I went to that cafe to get a cheap sandwich during lunch breaks from work. I didn't tell her my opinion on the Ukrainian crisis. Before she left, she explained to me that Crimea was a popular tourist spot for the Russians during the Soviet era. Nikita Khruschev, who lived in Ukraine during his early years, gave Crimea to Ukraine. The exchange student was nice and the customers were sad to see her leave. I don't know how many Russians she represents, but I get the feeling that a significant number of Russians support the annexation of Crimea.
She is quite lively at times. She teached me some Russian words and grammar. When I forgot to pronounce the Russian word for university in the Russian way (I started the sound with yu instead of oo), she asked, "excuse me?" I said, "oh, oo-nee-ve-rirseetet....." Before I could finish the sentence, she yelled, "OO-NEE-VE-RIRSEETET!" She startled everyone in the cafe.
a completely inoffensive name
09-02-2014, 06:53
When the USSR fell, we should have taken advantage and just bought up all the nukes. Odd how not one think tank had the foresight to think that maybe, just maybe, Russia wouldn't turn into a capitalist paradise we could all be friends with.
Sarmatian
09-02-2014, 08:21
You were pro Russian they are anti-Russian. We were also doing the whole "be nice to Muslims and they'll be nice to us" phase.
Do you really think that the West is fair?
~:smoking:
I don't think anyone's fair. I'm mostly arguing with those who do think the West is fair and, by that definition, right.
When the USSR fell, we should have taken advantage and just bought up all the nukes. Odd how not one think tank had the foresight to think that maybe, just maybe, Russia wouldn't turn into a capitalist paradise we could all be friends with.
Yes, 'cause they would have sold them just like that.
a completely inoffensive name
09-02-2014, 08:42
Yes, 'cause they would have sold them just like that.
Thanks for agreeing.
rory_20_uk
09-02-2014, 09:24
When the USSR fell, we should have taken advantage and just bought up all the nukes. Odd how not one think tank had the foresight to think that maybe, just maybe, Russia wouldn't turn into a capitalist paradise we could all be friends with.
Every country should have bought a few - just in case.
America can destroy a conventional army as that is what it is designed to do. But a regime that might detonate a nuke or two... well, that's much more of a wild card.
~:smoking:
When the USSR fell, we should have taken advantage and just bought up all the nukes. Odd how not one think tank had the foresight to think that maybe, just maybe, Russia wouldn't turn into a capitalist paradise we could all be friends with.
We can all be friends with them, but not if we keep sending money to people who attack them.
As for the nukes, that would've just meant that they had only new ones instead of old ones today.
GenosseGeneral
09-02-2014, 10:49
When the USSR fell, we should have taken advantage and just bought up all the nukes. Odd how not one think tank had the foresight to think that maybe, just maybe, Russia wouldn't turn into a capitalist paradise we could all be friends with.
Even in the darkest days of the 1990s, Russia would have not given up its nukes. I wonder, whether the Ukrainians will now build their own, as the Budapest memorandum under which they gave up their 3000 warheads was obviously not worth the paper it was written on.
And yes, Ukraine has certainly the capabilities to build nukes in a not too long time, though they might lack the funds.
I never mentioned or implied persecution, I just mentioned that the Baltic states are not as glorious as you make them out to be
Are you kidding me? I quote:
they prevent you from learning the language in the first place
treat their ethnically russian population like outcasts?
What is that if it's not some kind of persecution? Also, when have I ever implied that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way Russians are treated in the Baltic States? It's just that it appears that you're overly fond of criticising Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania under the guise of "being neutral", whereas these particular countries have not only suffered under 50 years of Soviet occupation, but where the memory of deportations and the like is rather fresh.
That's what I said, what are you arguing about then?
What I'm arguing is that the Baltic States aren't the Russophobe hellholes that you make them out to be.
The "assimilate or sod off" is quite contrary to the what would be a democratic and civilized way of dealing with it. Serbia was bombed 15 years ago for applying the same standard to Albanians.
Note that this is not the standard that the Estonian government uses as far as I'm aware. This is just the message I got from a Russian-Estonian. And it's not even about complete cultural assimilation (cf. the Old Believers around Lake Peipus), it's about the fact that there is a worryingly large population of Russians that refuses to accept that the Soviet Union is over and is more or less caught inbetween everything.
Rhyfelwyr
09-02-2014, 11:47
Hax, I'm not sure why you brought up the Baltic states in response to my Ukraine comment, since their situation is quite different on a number of levels. In the Baltic states, you have a much clearer divide between the 'native' and Russian populations - in the case of Estonia they both speak languages from completely different families. From what I understand, Ukrainian is barely different from Russian, and language-identification in Ukraine is based far more on political alignment than linguistic differences. This is significant because unlike the Baltic states where the Russian presence is more an artificial legacy of Soviet ethnic policies, Ukraine has a much deeper and more intertwined history with Russia. For that reason I think it is possible to have a more genuine Russian nationalism in Ukraine that in would be in Estonia, where as you say, it might take on more the character of Soviet imperialism.
I am also of the impression that the Baltic states are closer to what we would consider Western and free societies than Ukraine. I suppose this is at least in part because they have been as much part of the Western world (through the Germanic/Scandinavian influence in Estonia/Latvia and the Germanic/Polish influence in Lithuania) as they have the Eastern. If the Estonian government truly treats Russians well, then fair play. But the situation is evidently very different in Ukraine, if only perhaps because the Russian population there is sufficiently large to challenge the direction the country is going in.
I never have quite the personal stories of the bohemians on this board, so my only anecdotal story is a girl in one of my university tutorial groups who identified as a "Russian from Estonia". I presumed at the time that must just mean her parents were 1st generation immigrants, looking back now maybe that was not the case. The fact she studying abroad at a university would seem to back up your point that not all Russian Estonians are hopelessly uneducated and oppressed.
What is that if it's not some kind of persecution? Also, when have I ever implied that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way Russians are treated in the Baltic States? It's just that it appears that you're overly fond of criticising Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania under the guise of "being neutral", whereas these particular countries have not only suffered under 50 years of Soviet occupation, but where the memory of deportations and the like is rather fresh.
So they are probably not persecuting them but if they were it would be okay because an eye for an eye?
By persecution I understand hunt and jail or something very similar but apparently dictionaries also include try to keep them from buying pizza, so maybe I was indeed talking about persecution because I meant try to keep them from voting. So yeah, they are persecuting them and the Soviet Union did a lot for them, read that article I posted earlier, there is no excuse.
What I'm arguing is that the Baltic States aren't the Russophobe hellholes that you make them out to be.
See, that's why I objected to the term persecution because it usually comes right to hellhole even though I just meant that they try to delay/hinder their full integration, which is not the same as being a hellhole. At the same time you could try to stop praising them like they're all god's country just because you recently read a few books about them.
Note that this is not the standard that the Estonian government uses as far as I'm aware. This is just the message I got from a Russian-Estonian. And it's not even about complete cultural assimilation (cf. the Old Believers around Lake Peipus), it's about the fact that there is a worryingly large population of Russians that refuses to accept that the Soviet Union is over and is more or less caught inbetween everything.
Just like our worryingly increasing ethnically Turkish population that keeps telling us how Turkey is the better country and also gets to vote for the Turkish president, maybe we should also strip all ethnic Turks' voting rights if they can't write a university-level 50-page report in German and swear a loyalty oath to Germany and Christian values.
By persecution I understand hunt and jail or something very similar but apparently dictionaries also include try to keep them from buying pizza, so maybe I was indeed talking about persecution because I meant try to keep them from voting. So yeah, they are persecuting them and the Soviet Union did a lot for them, read that article I posted earlier, there is no excuse.
The article of which I pointed out that it is directly sponsored by the Russian state.
Meanwhile, a Russian Estonian is Minister of Education, but sure, Russians are being kept from voting.
See, that's why I objected to the term persecution because it usually comes right to hellhole even though I just meant that they try to delay/hinder their full integration, which is not the same as being a hellhole. At the same time you could try to stop praising them like they're all god's country just because you recently read a few books about them.
Why are you so obsessed by the idea that I'm somehow elavating the Baltic states above any or all others?
Just like our worryingly increasing ethnically Turkish population that keeps telling us how Turkey is the better country and also gets to vote for the Turkish president, maybe we should also strip all ethnic Turks' voting rights if they can't write a university-level 50-page report in German and swear a loyalty oath to Germany and Christian values.
You're basically creating a strawman of what you think the Estonian government looks like, which is sadly just not based in reality. While you harp on and on about how they are supposedly taking away the rights of Russians, even those that do not hold passports are able to vote in municipal elections, and at the same time, the number of people without citizenship has dropped from 32 percent in 1992, to 7.6 in 2008.
But sure, you can go shape your perspective of what the country looks like based on one source that is practically from the Russian government, that's also cool.
The article of which I pointed out that it is directly sponsored by the Russian state.
Meanwhile, a Russian Estonian is Minister of Education, but sure, Russians are being kept from voting.
That's the usual "I'm not racist, I have a black friend"-excuse.
Why are you so obsessed by the idea that I'm somehow elavating the Baltic states above any or all others?
Because you are so obsessed with bringing them up all the time and don't even seem to notice it. You're the one who brought them up here to make some weird tangential point that had nothing to do with Ukraine really.
You're basically creating a strawman of what you think the Estonian government looks like, which is sadly just not based in reality. While you harp on and on about how they are supposedly taking away the rights of Russians, even those that do not hold passports are able to vote in municipal elections, and at the same time, the number of people without citizenship has dropped from 32 percent in 1992, to 7.6 in 2008.
But sure, you can go shape your perspective of what the country looks like based on one source that is practically from the Russian government, that's also cool.
Except that I'm not and you just can't deny that they are slowing down the integration, they could have just let all the Russians become citizens right away. You think having 32 percent of the people living in your country without citizenship was normal in 1992?
And sure, you can shape your views of how great a country is based on your fanboy study materials or random anecdotes from people you met there, that's perfectly acceptable. THE EU apparently thought that Estonia wasn't being entirely fair, but hey, what do they know, right?
Rhyfelwyr
09-02-2014, 13:29
Except that I'm not and you just can't deny that they are slowing down the integration, they could have just let all the Russians become citizens right away. You think having 32 percent of the people living in your country without citizenship was normal in 1992?
Considering you are talking about a post-Soviet country that had only been independent for a few years after the collapse of the USSR, its not that surprising at all.
Sarmatian
09-02-2014, 13:52
Considering you are talking about a post-Soviet country that had only been independent for a few years after the collapse of the USSR, its not that surprising at all.
It was extremely unfair. By modern, civilized standards, ethnicity has nothing to do with citizenship. They live there, pay taxes, and generally have same rights and obligations as everyone else. To exclude them from having any say based on their ethnicity is wrong. You may not like what they have to say, but, hey, that's how democracy works.
Considering you are talking about a post-Soviet country that had only been independent for a few years after the collapse of the USSR, its not that surprising at all.
Yet Germany didn't seem to have any problem with reintegrating the east and quite a few from there even wish that the DDR had never ended. Why are we nicer people than the Estonians? Not just some minister, but our current chancellor is from the DDR. We didn't exclude people born in the DDR from citizenship because they're filthy Russia-loving commies who can't be trusted until they pass the democracy test. And that even though we had to live with the fear of becoming a huge soviet battlefield and getting nuked from two sides for all these years. Meanwhile Estonia was well behind any proposed frontlines in the loving arms of the Soviet motherland and then excluded 32 percent of its inhabitants from becoming citizens. Next up we'll talk about how all of this was Germany's fault in the first place I guess. :no:
The "assimilate or sod off" is quite contrary to the what would be a democratic and civilized way of dealing with it. Serbia was bombed 15 years ago for applying the same standard to Albanians.
And which ethnic wars in the Baltics would you be referring to now?
Seamus Fermanagh
09-02-2014, 19:18
Russification works. Takes a while, but it works.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-02-2014, 22:44
It was extremely unfair. By modern, civilized standards, ethnicity has nothing to do with citizenship. They live there, pay taxes, and generally have same rights and obligations as everyone else. To exclude them from having any say based on their ethnicity is wrong. You may not like what they have to say, but, hey, that's how democracy works.
That's like saying post-Apartheid South Africa is a horrible racist place - except the Baltics are much nicer places than SA.
Russians were important to run the Civil Service and major mechanisms of production - the long term goal being to make the Batlics "Russian".
Naturally, the Baltic countries experienced a massive anti-Russian backlash immediately following independence. That would up roughly a decade ago, but you still have Russians depanding the right to be Russian and vote in Estonian elections - and by "Russian" we mean "speak only Russian, think only Russian."
The Estonians et al are not idiots - even if the Germans and French are only now waking up to the fact that the Russian Bear is not at all cuddly.
Kralizec
09-02-2014, 23:11
Yet Germany didn't seem to have any problem with reintegrating the east and quite a few from there even wish that the DDR had never ended. Why are we nicer people than the Estonians? Not just some minister, but our current chancellor is from the DDR. We didn't exclude people born in the DDR from citizenship because they're filthy Russia-loving commies who can't be trusted until they pass the democracy test. And that even though we had to live with the fear of becoming a huge soviet battlefield and getting nuked from two sides for all these years. Meanwhile Estonia was well behind any proposed frontlines in the loving arms of the Soviet motherland and then excluded 32 percent of its inhabitants from becoming citizens. Next up we'll talk about how all of this was Germany's fault in the first place I guess. :no:
Citizenship = nationality =/= carrying a passport.
What the Baltic states are doing might not be "nice" but perfectly understandable considering their history of being dominated by Russia. In fact, it could have been a lot worse. And the Baltic states are lucky that the Russians didn't decide to give them the same treatment as Moldova or Georgia, i.e. sending 'peacekeepers' to carve out Russian quasi-states that are recognised by virtually nobody.
Citizenship = nationality =/= carrying a passport.
What the Baltic states are doing might not be "nice" but perfectly understandable considering their history of being dominated by Russia. In fact, it could have been a lot worse. And the Baltic states are lucky that the Russians didn't decide to give them the same treatment as Moldova or Georgia, i.e. sending 'peacekeepers' to carve out Russian quasi-states that are recognised by virtually nobody.
Unlike most of these other countries, the Baltic countries are in NATO, but maybe noone in NATO is willing to honor that treaty.
As for Moldova, that little Russian enclave has been turned into a dictatorial hellhole and since that is apparently how the Russians like it, that proves that they are demonic.
Sarmatian
09-03-2014, 13:15
Russians were important to run the Civil Service and major mechanisms of production - the long term goal being to make the Batlics "Russian".
Naturally, the Baltic countries experienced a massive anti-Russian backlash immediately following independence. That would up roughly a decade ago, but you still have Russians depanding the right to be Russian and vote in Estonian elections - and by "Russian" we mean "speak only Russian, think only Russian."
The Estonians et al are not idiots - even if the Germans and French are only now waking up to the fact that the Russian Bear is not at all cuddly.
So, because a good portion of Scots want independent Scotland and don't see Britain as their country, they should have their British citizenship revoked and be excluded from politics in the UK?
Gilrandir
09-03-2014, 14:47
Your argument is entirely based on your study abroad experience in that country and you are biased as usual.
So, according to Husar and Sarmatian, one can't claim to be aware of the situation in the country if one is an outsider visiting it from time to time (as with Hax) or an insider living all his life in it all his life (as with me). It seems the best way to get to know a country is to never visit it, stay at home, and surf the internet.
Maybe the situation is getting better now, I do believe it is, but the fact is Baltic states and Poland created oppressive laws which sole purpose was to exclude Russians living there from having any say, and the idea that it somehow justified because of past oppression is even more ludicrous.
It is the first time I hear of a considerable Russian minority in Poland and special measures by the Polish government to hurt it in any way.
Even in the darkest days of the 1990s, Russia would have not given up its nukes. I wonder, whether the Ukrainians will now build their own, as the Budapest memorandum under which they gave up their 3000 warheads was obviously not worth the paper it was written on.
And yes, Ukraine has certainly the capabilities to build nukes in a not too long time, though they might lack the funds.
Possessing nuclear weapons does not prevent Israel from being permanently at war with its Arab neighbors, so Ukraine is not likely to benefit from having it as no one will presume to use it (at least not so near one's own territory).
Gilrandir
09-03-2014, 14:52
Have you heard of this one:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/world/europe/ukraine-crisis.html?_r=0
Strike For The South
09-03-2014, 15:19
It's September 3rd and Putin is a still a fascist
Kagemusha
09-03-2014, 16:38
I am wondering why no one has posted this today? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29042561
Apparently both Poroshenko and Putin seem to be positive about the possibility of cease fire. Of course such might ruin a good thread. :P
Seamus Fermanagh
09-03-2014, 17:03
Don't the seven terms leave the separatists in functional control of much of Eastern Ukraine? I don't know that the current Ukraine government could survive such a deal....
All-for-all prisoner exchange? Doesn't that necessarily return more forces to the separatist force pool (at least in relative terms) while not making and substantive increase in fighting power for Ukraine?
I would venture to say this offer will not be picked up.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-03-2014, 23:38
Don't the seven terms leave the separatists in functional control of much of Eastern Ukraine? I don't know that the current Ukraine government could survive such a deal....
All-for-all prisoner exchange? Doesn't that necessarily return more forces to the separatist force pool (at least in relative terms) while not making and substantive increase in fighting power for Ukraine?
I would venture to say this offer will not be picked up.
The final point "Restoration of destroyed infrastructure." is the most telling. It implies a new status quo where the rebels rule in the regions they hold.
As puppets of Moscow, of course.
So, according to Husar and Sarmatian, one can't claim to be aware of the situation in the country if one is an outsider visiting it from time to time (as with Hax) or an insider living all his life in it all his life (as with me). It seems the best way to get to know a country is to never visit it, stay at home, and surf the internet.
Yes, with distance comes objectivity, that's why policemen can usually not solve murder cases if they have a strong emotional interest in them because they knew the victim or one of the suspects. It's less that you don't know anything and more that you cannot be trusted because you obviously favor one side regardless of who does what. Just like a policeman would be less likely to suspect his own friend even if a lot of the evidence pointed toward that friend. I also wouldn't claim to know how all Germans think and neither would I claim that we are all better people than the Dutch or the Poles. And if I did, you would do well not to trust me.
Regarding the ceasefire, the Russians denied that last I heard, meanwhile the USA and Britain have bullied France not to sell Russia the two helicopter carriers they were about to deliver. I also hear the press in Australia is full of warmongering rhetoric against Russia.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-03-2014, 23:48
In other news: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29052599
Looks like Russia won't be getting those assault ships from France for the foreseeable future.
I'm getting pretty tired of being right. Between what's about to happen in Iraq/Syria, and what's about to happen in Ukraine, people need to be paying attention. Don't forget about Chinese Air Defense Zone either. The possibility of a conventional war between Nuclear Powers, while totally absurd, seems to be what will happen shortly, and should such a war break out the entire world will try to take sides and wrangle the most out of it. The world may finally be numb to the threat of Nuclear War, assuming that no state has the cojones to do such a thing. Putin may even think he can engage the west in an actual war without nukes being used. I'd recommend people stop being partisan and recognize the problem: There's a bloc out there trying to change the status quo in a big way, and Putin is the muscle at the moment. If things continue to escalate, we may find out who the other players are in a bad way.
Keep an eye on the news, I suppose. :hide:
There is something very WW1-esque about what is happening in Europe now. The Russian Empire never completely dissolved. Republics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_Russia) like Chechnya and Ingushetia have their own more or less 'endemic' ethnic groups in a demographic majority*, and so Russia is far-far away from the nation states that Europe is mostly composed of today. Russia is more like the old order, where a 'master ethnic group' rules over several smaller ones.
Chechens insurgents, of course, fought wars for independence. Should Russia be involved a full-out war and not win it, I think a lot of other republics, too, could seek independence.
* some of those republics here:
Kalmykia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmykia#Ethnic_groups) (57.4% Kalmykians)
Tuva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuva#Ethnic_groups) (82.0% Tuvans)
Chechnya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#Ethnic_groups) (95.3% Chechens)
Ingushetia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingushetia#Ethnic_groups) (94.1 Ingushes)
Tatarstan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatarstan#Ethnic_groups) (53.2% Tatars)
Kabardino-Balkaria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabardino-Balkaria#Ethnic_groups) (57.2% Karbadays)
Karachay-Cherkessia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karachay-Cherkessia#Ethnic_groups) (41.0% Karachays)
Gilrandir
09-04-2014, 13:55
I am wondering why no one has posted this today? http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29042561
Apparently both Poroshenko and Putin seem to be positive about the possibility of cease fire. Of course such might ruin a good thread. :P
Whatever one may agree with Putin, he is not likely to honor the agreement. This he showed not once, namely in violating 1997 Ukrainain-Russian treaty in which he undertook to honor Ukraine's integrity in the borders of 1997.
But it seems to me that you don't understand the meaning of Putin's plan: by forwarding any plan he indirectly admits Russia's involvement in the conflict as the separatists don't offer THEIR plan different from this one. Does he speak on behalf of "Novorossia"? If not, will he be able to see to it that the separatists keep their promises (that is if any are made)?
Meanwhile, the shit of Russian dead soldiers (not volunteers, mind you, but conscripts and contracted professionals) brought from Ukraine has hit the fan:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7-200-%D0%B8%D0%B7-%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D0%B2-%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8E/763463900366139
This is a facebook group (founded by a Russian woman) whose aim is to expose the cases of such homecoming although Russia is trying hard to suppress any news of them. The publications (or video coverage) on them sometimes manage to slip through the censorship in Russian media, albeit only in the local ones the central media being totally blind to suchlike topics.
It was estimated by the site creators that over 2000 Russian regular army soldiers have died in Ukraine since May (among them about 1100 in August alone).
Yes, with distance comes objectivity, that's why policemen can usually not solve murder cases if they have a strong emotional interest in them because they knew the victim or one of the suspects. It's less that you don't know anything and more that you cannot be trusted because you obviously favor one side regardless of who does what.
I believe that any news one hears provokes some emotion in him/her. You can't be totally indifferent to the facts you hear. This emotion is born at some early initial stage of discovering some news. Say, you hear that a group of protesters, who demanded from the legally elected ruler something which he doesn't want to do, was dispersed violently by the police. Your reaction based on your emotional attitude may be: "Serve them right" or "He shouldn't have done it". This initially installed filter funnels any update of the event you get into one of those two directions thus adding to it some stronger bias.
I believe that any news one hears provokes some emotion in him/her. You can't be totally indifferent to the facts you hear. This emotion is born at some early initial stage of discovering some news. Say, you hear that a group of protesters, who demanded from the legally elected ruler something which he doesn't want to do, was dispersed violently by the police. Your reaction based on your emotional attitude may be: "Serve them right" or "He shouldn't have done it". This initially installed filter funnels any update of the event you get into one of those two directions thus adding to it some stronger bias.
There isn't just black and white, but there is also a difference between being light grey and being dark grey on the scale.
And you also just said that your initial bias grew stronger with time, something I cannot honestly say.
Kagemusha
09-04-2014, 16:36
Whatever one may agree with Putin, he is not likely to honor the agreement. This he showed not once, namely in violating 1997 Ukrainain-Russian treaty in which he undertook to honor Ukraine's integrity in the borders of 1997.
But it seems to me that you don't understand the meaning of Putin's plan: by forwarding any plan he indirectly admits Russia's involvement in the conflict as the separatists don't offer THEIR plan different from this one. Does he speak on behalf of "Novorossia"? If not, will he be able to see to it that the separatists keep their promises (that is if any are made)?
Meanwhile, the shit of Russian dead soldiers (not volunteers, mind you, but conscripts and contracted professionals) brought from Ukraine has hit the fan:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7-200-%D0%B8%D0%B7-%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D0%B2-%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8E/763463900366139
This is a facebook group (founded by a Russian woman) whose aim is to expose the cases of such homecoming although Russia is trying hard to suppress any news of them. The publications (or video coverage) on them sometimes manage to slip through the censorship in Russian media, albeit only in the local ones the central media being totally blind to suchlike topics.
It was estimated by the site creators that over 2000 Russian regular army soldiers have died in Ukraine since May (among them about 1100 in August alone).
I believe that any news one hears provokes some emotion in him/her. You can't be totally indifferent to the facts you hear. This emotion is born at some early initial stage of discovering some news. Say, you hear that a group of protesters, who demanded from the legally elected ruler something which he doesn't want to do, was dispersed violently by the police. Your reaction based on your emotional attitude may be: "Serve them right" or "He shouldn't have done it". This initially installed filter funnels any update of the event you get into one of those two directions thus adding to it some stronger bias.
Honor and realpolitiks do not mix. We have to remember that we are talking about politicians here. Poroshenko seems to be eager about the possible ceasefire. Meanwhile The Russian backed separatist seem to be making an all out push towards Mariupol. I bet they want to take the city before the possible ceasefire.
Sarmatian
09-04-2014, 16:48
The problem might be that Yatseniuk doesn't support ceasefire. President is much more powerful than PM in Ukraine but it's a question how much power and authority Poroshenko really wields.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-04-2014, 21:05
There isn't just black and white, but there is also a difference between being light grey and being dark grey on the scale.
And you also just said that your initial bias grew stronger with time, something I cannot honestly say.
You're very much in the "horse has bolted" minority now Husar.
You're still not addressing the question of those Russian troops inside Ukraine, and let's face it, if NATO is willing to release "intel" showing what they say are Russian armoured columns then you can bet they have some actual intel that proves it.
Let's reconsider those "three" Russian tanks in light of that, shall we?
Are you still going to claim that the majority of rebel armour came from inside Ukraine, or are you willing to wake up and smell the coffee?
You're very much in the "horse has bolted" minority now Husar.
You're still not addressing the question of those Russian troops inside Ukraine, and let's face it, if NATO is willing to release "intel" showing what they say are Russian armoured columns then you can bet they have some actual intel that proves it.
Then they should just release it and not take their sweet time to fabricate it.
Let's reconsider those "three" Russian tanks in light of that, shall we?
Are you still going to claim that the majority of rebel armour came from inside Ukraine, or are you willing to wake up and smell the coffee?
I'm not a morning coffee person even though I take very long to wake up. It seems quite strange that Putin would send barely enough tanks to let the Ukrainian government win very slowly. And Russian army tankers have to be very suicidal to go there in outdated tanks as cannon fodder for no good reason other than to troll the Ukrainian government a bit. Makes you wonder why Putin's approval rating is so high when he just sends people slowly into a meatgrinder. And you are conversely saying that the Ukrainian army had no bases and/or lost no units or vehicles in Eastern Ukraine?
Because he's playing both sides: by refusing to start a full-scale full-on invasion of Ukraine, he's -- more-or-less -- giving off the image that he really only wants peace, he only wants to defend the Russian minority, etc, etc. Putin is not an idiot, he's not going to launch a full-scale invasion like that, of course it's going to be bit-by-bit.
Do you think it's a coincidence that these tanks were spotted less than 24 hours after Poroshenko and Putin met in Minsk and had their talk?
And Russian army tankers have to be very suicidal to go there in outdated tanks as cannon fodder for no good reason other than to troll the Ukrainian government a bit.
Because when you're a soldier, you can disagree with commands from higher-ups at will when you feel like it.
Because he's playing both sides: by refusing to start a full-scale full-on invasion of Ukraine, he's -- more-or-less -- giving off the image that he really only wants peace, he only wants to defend the Russian minority, etc, etc. Putin is not an idiot, he's not going to launch a full-scale invasion like that, of course it's going to be bit-by-bit.
Do you think it's a coincidence that these tanks were spotted less than 24 hours after Poroshenko and Putin met in Minsk and had their talk?
Which "these tanks"?
And if he wants to take Ukraine bit-by-bit why is he losing it bit-by-bit so far?
Because when you're a soldier, you can disagree with commands from higher-ups at will when you feel like it.
Yeah, it's called low morale, but apparently they only posted happy tweets about how they're slowly getting killed.
Gilrandir
09-05-2014, 14:17
Makes you wonder why Putin's approval rating is so high when he just sends people slowly into a meatgrinder.
The society at large doesn't realize that. Most military are reported (to the Russian public) to be having an excercise in Rostov region and those dead are described as getting lost, straying somehow to Ukraine and coming under mortar fire. This was the explanation of the cases having hit the fan. Otherwise the dead are reported (to the relatives) just to have died during the exercise.The facebook group I linked claims that there is a cremation vehicle circulating about Donbas to hide the telltale signs of Russian invasion.
And you are conversely saying that the Ukrainian army had no bases and/or lost no units or vehicles in Eastern Ukraine?
Even if such cases happened (which I doubt considering the fact that the separatists took down from pedestals tank-monuments dating back to WWII) they still cannot explain the numbers in which tanks are reported to be present in Ukraine. RNBO reports every other day about columns of dozens (sometime a hundred) of vehicles that have crossed into Ukraine, most (or a significant part) of them being tanks.
And if he wants to take Ukraine bit-by-bit why is he losing it bit-by-bit so far?
I would say the opposite: Ukrainan army has left Debaltseve, Yasynuvata, Saur Mohyla, a number of smaller villages and the Luhansk airport. Mariupol is under direct threat and it seems that all available forces were sent there. Except those it seems that Ukraine has no reinforcements to stop the holes in the frontlines since it was not ready for "the helping hand" of Moscow stretching to Donbas.
The society at large doesn't realize that. Most military are reported (to the Russian public) to be having an excercise in Rostov region and those dead are described as getting lost, straying somehow to Ukraine and coming under mortar fire. This was the explanation of the cases having hit the fan. Otherwise the dead are reported (to the relatives) just to have died during the exercise.The facebook group I linked claims that there is a cremation vehicle circulating about Donbas to hide the telltale signs of Russian invasion.
Even if such cases happened (which I doubt considering the fact that the separatists took down from pedestals tank-monuments dating back to WWII) they still cannot explain the numbers in which tanks are reported to be present in Ukraine. RNBO reports every other day about columns of dozens (sometime a hundred) of vehicles that have crossed into Ukraine, most (or a significant part) of them being tanks.
I would say the opposite: Ukrainan army has left Debaltseve, Yasynuvata, Saur Mohyla, a number of smaller villages and the Luhansk airport. Mariupol is under direct threat and it seems that all available forces were sent there. Except those it seems that Ukraine has no reinforcements to stop the holes in the frontlines since it was not ready for "the helping hand" of Moscow stretching to Donbas.
So basically Putin has finally decided to win this game and launched a full-scale invasion that he tries to pass off as a maneuver at home?
Several columns of sometimes hundreds of tanks sounds like he'll be in Kiev in a week.
Gilrandir
09-05-2014, 15:45
So basically Putin has finally decided to win this game and launched a full-scale invasion that he tries to pass off as a maneuver at home?
Several columns of sometimes hundreds of tanks sounds like he'll be in Kiev in a week.
Having started the game he can't afford to lose or even step back as his image of a Gatherer of Russian lands and Protector of Slavic brotherhood may take a serious blow in Russia. I think so far he is trying to prop DPR so that no reconquista was possible. The separatists' forces are taking their time and are moving slowly from a city to a city leaving no open corridors behind and securing their positions. Holding significant territories is a strong point to negotiate from. Open invasion (at least so open that even you would admit it) is not what he favors so far.
Kagemusha
09-05-2014, 17:13
Having started the game he can't afford to lose or even step back as his image of a Gatherer of Russian lands and Protector of Slavic brotherhood may take a serious blow in Russia. I think so far he is trying to prop DPR so that no reconquista was possible. The separatists' forces are taking their time and are moving slowly from a city to a city leaving no open corridors behind and securing their positions. Holding significant territories is a strong point to negotiate from. Open invasion (at least so open that even you would admit it) is not what he favors so far.
My bet is that Putin is trying to turn this into "cold crisis" like Transnistria, so Donetsk and Luhansk will stay nominally part of Ukraine, but gain autonomy, which means they will become de facto Russian zones of control and also can be used in future as political tools if necessary.
If i look at this from other point of view. It could be that Poroshenko is eager to make ceasefire in order to buy time, Once the NATO manouvers will start at Western Ukraine, the tones of Ukrainian government might change quite rapidly.
Well lets see if there really will be a ceasefire or not.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-05-2014, 23:26
Then they should just release it and not take their sweet time to fabricate it.
So it's fabricated now? As well as unreliable?
Please - the intel they have shared is not definitive, the definitive stuff is classified. They're saying that "these are Russian tanks" and showing you the tanks in Ukraine - the high-end stuff that proves they're Russians tanks will remain classified.
Even if it does, only an injection of Russian regulars can explain the reversal on the verge of a rebel defeat.
I'm not a morning coffee person even though I take very long to wake up. It seems quite strange that Putin would send barely enough tanks to let the Ukrainian government win very slowly. And Russian army tankers have to be very suicidal to go there in outdated tanks as cannon fodder for no good reason other than to troll the Ukrainian government a bit. Makes you wonder why Putin's approval rating is so high when he just sends people slowly into a meatgrinder. And you are conversely saying that the Ukrainian army had no bases and/or lost no units or vehicles in Eastern Ukraine?
The majority of Ukraine's hardware is in the West, that's why it took them so long to deploy against the rebels, there aren't enough units and depots in the East to explain the weight of rebel armour at this point.
As to Putin's approval rating - the Tsar is fighting the evil Fascists, of course he's popular.
As to a meat grinder - Putin has showed repeatedly that he does not care for individual Russian lives, only Mother Russia.
Stop pretending he's Westernised or a Democrat just because he wears nice jackets.
Kagemusha
09-06-2014, 06:29
So it's fabricated now? As well as unreliable?
Please - the intel they have shared is not definitive, the definitive stuff is classified. They're saying that "these are Russian tanks" and showing you the tanks in Ukraine - the high-end stuff that proves they're Russians tanks will remain classified.
Even if it does, only an injection of Russian regulars can explain the reversal on the verge of a rebel defeat.
I have to disagree with you concerning the Russian equipment injected to Ukraine. It is not high end Russian equipment mostly, but their basic equipment. Russia has 4000 - 4500 T-72B variants in service that fit the description of the tanks spotted deployed at Ukraine. 2500 pcs of BM-21 Grad MRLS systems. More then 1100 BTR-80 Wheeled APC´s. 8500 BMP-2 IFV´s. These are some of the vehicles spotted in Ukraine.
About the actual force. There is no way telling as of this moment how the actual separatist force is composed of. I dont think that injection of regular Russian soldiers into Ukraine is the only explanation on the reversal of the separatist fortunes. In my opinion getting more heavy equipment was far more important and what we know from the news. The level of professionalism and equipment of the forces fighting at Eastern Ukraine compared to ones monitored earlier at Crimea is not similar.
Either the Russian soldiers are conscripts forced to fight in Ukraine, or mix of volunteers, mercs, conscripts, etc, but not hired professionals mostly, which most of Russian standing army today are.Like i earlier said. I am positive that there are Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine, but i am not at all convinced that those forces are comprised of entire units of Russian army, at least at this point.
What i am happy about is that the ceasefire has seemed to hold for the first night.
If the cease-fire hold and the negotiations, it looks that a political neutralisation of Ukraine will be done, success for Putin due to the failure (and arrogance) from the Western Agencies to understand and foresee the process.
It could have been achieved without Ukraine loosing territory and lives by Treaty, even by the Interim Government.
As PVC often said, appeasement doesn’t work, and the multiple times Russia swallowed the pill came to an end.
I hope Ukraine will stay united but I am not optimistic due to my Bosnian Experience and the result of "autonomous" regions which de facto stopped or hampered any move of political reunion.
Sarmatian
09-06-2014, 09:21
It certainly seems like Putin wins. If I were Putin, this is where I would stop. Ukraine's destabilized, NATO looks impotent, and his domestic capital is through the roof. Of course, he'll need more crises in the future to keep it going. He might not even be able to keep the cease-fire.
~:handball:
It looks good so far. According to the news agency at least, both sides respect the cease-fire. From here they can move to political solutions.
Kagemusha
09-06-2014, 11:29
It certainly seems like Putin wins. If I were Putin, this is where I would stop. Ukraine's destabilized, NATO looks impotent, and his domestic capital is through the roof. Of course, he'll need more crises in the future to keep it going. He might not even be able to keep the cease-fire.
~:handball:
I dont think it is more conflicts Putin is looking for. He is neither stupid nor suicidal, so Russia will not be next stirring conflict at Baltics like many Western hawks wish to believe.
The last non aligned Western neighbours Russia have at West are Finland and Sweden and we dont have any significant Russian minority to use for stirring up a conflict. If Russia were just to invade us in conventional sense without any casus belli. They would have hell to pay. No i think Putin will look next into other things.
My bet is that next Russia will concentrate their efforts and new found prestige in developing SCO into a real balancing factor compared to NATO. Now this is not something Russia can ram through as China is maybe the dominant partner in that organisations and it is up to China do they want distance themselves from the West or not.
In any case so far what this crisis has thought is that it has been made clear to West that Russia´s days of endless bending over are in the past and that Europe and US need to rethink their defense doctrines and military organisations. Conventional war has not disappeared like many defense analyst have been rambling for the past decade and West has to be ready for one, like East already is.
Pannonian
09-06-2014, 13:11
I dont think it is more conflicts Putin is looking for. He is neither stupid nor suicidal, so Russia will not be next stirring conflict at Baltics like many Western hawks wish to believe.
The last non aligned Western neighbours Russia have at West are Finland and Sweden and we dont have any significant Russian minority to use for stirring up a conflict. If Russia were just to invade us in conventional sense without any casus belli. They would have hell to pay. No i think Putin will look next into other things.
My bet is that next Russia will concentrate their efforts and new found prestige in developing SCO into a real balancing factor compared to NATO. Now this is not something Russia can ram through as China is maybe the dominant partner in that organisations and it is up to China do they want distance themselves from the West or not.
In any case so far what this crisis has thought is that it has been made clear to West that Russia´s days of endless bending over are in the past and that Europe and US need to rethink their defense doctrines and military organisations. Conventional war has not disappeared like many defense analyst have been rambling for the past decade and West has to be ready for one, like East already is.
One of our problems, a problem common to the victors of WWII who've not really had to deal with any serious reverses since, is our political dialectic. We're always hankering for the certainties of WWII where we were the good guys standing for freedom and democracy, and we were victorious. So every foreign situation gets turned into some variant of WWII, and the solution is to repeat what we did in WWII and we'll naturally get the same result.
Gilrandir
09-06-2014, 14:32
I have to disagree with you concerning the Russian equipment injected to Ukraine. It is not high end Russian equipment mostly, but their basic equipment. Russia has 4000 - 4500 T-72B variants in service that fit the description of the tanks spotted deployed at Ukraine. 2500 pcs of BM-21 Grad MRLS systems. More then 1100 BTR-80 Wheeled APC´s. 8500 BMP-2 IFV´s. These are some of the vehicles spotted in Ukraine.
I have to repeat what PVC said just now and what I said way back: Ukraine doesn't have such numbers of military vehicles in the East since most of such units were leftovers from the Soviet times stationed in the western part of the country to fend off the possible threat from NATO. Even if we admit any significant number of them in Donbas, what about fuel and ammo? Once captured (which I greatly doubt as I said), the tanks could be operated for quite a time only if they have enough of those. Are fuel and ammo captured constantly from the Ukrainian military to keep the vehicles going for three months? In this case Ukraine supplies the separatists better than its own army.
In my opinion getting more heavy equipment was far more important and what we know from the news.
So battered and barely-trained local laymen learned to use this heavy equipment overnight and immediately started a victorious offensive?
Either the Russian soldiers are conscripts forced to fight in Ukraine, or mix of volunteers, mercs, conscripts, etc, but not hired professionals mostly, which most of Russian standing army today are.Like i earlier said. I am positive that there are Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine, but i am not at all convinced that those forces are comprised of entire units of Russian army, at least at this point.
Ukrainian soldiers who escaped from the Ilovaysk trap said that they had been negotiating about the corridor to escape with Russian officers in charge of a paratroop division (they mentioned the number of it but I don't remember it now) and those officers interrupted the parley quite often to consult someone (evidently from higher up) and only then agreed to some terms giving the word of a Russian officer that Ukrainians will be let through. Ukrainians had some Russian captives (about 20 regular army soldiers) who were to be set free as soon as the column was out of Ilovaysk. The moment Ukrainains formed the column shelling from everywhere started and the remains of it scattered about the vicinity. Russian captives were evidently killed by the first volleys as they were placed in vehicles at the head of the column.
One more thing about Russain regular army soldiers fighting in Ukraine: yesterday I saw a footage on one of Russia's federal TV channels about such soldier's funeral. Even they admitted that he was a paratrooper who was killed in Donbas, but they took pains to emphasize that before leaving for Ukraine he took a vacation from his unit, so neither his family nor top officers of it knew where he went. This story reminded to me a practice usual for Russia: whenever a policeman committed a felony which was impossible to hide, media said that he was a policeman, but the day before the crime he was fired (or quit his job, as an option).
The Russain facebook group I spoke about claims that Russain conscripts are often foced to sign a contract to be later sent anywhere the government wants, and contracted soldiers are forced to take vacations, paid 200 000 roubles cash down and promised as much monthly and then sent to Donbas.
My bet is that Putin is trying to turn this into "cold crisis" like Transnistria, so Donetsk and Luhansk will stay nominally part of Ukraine, but gain autonomy, which means they will become de facto Russian zones of control and also can be used in future as political tools if necessary.
The question is what the borders of these quasi-state are going to be. The separatists are pushing into those places which never had any desire to separate and never proclaimed any DPR or LPR (northern Luhansk region) or where DPR sojourn was brief and unpopular (Mariupol). I think that Novorossia format (rather than DPR or LPR) introduced by Putin in his spring speech (only after it this nomen was used by the separatists) allows them to claim and consequently invade territories far beyond Donetsk and Luhansk regions.
Seamus Fermanagh
09-06-2014, 17:11
Russia's national game is chess, not poker. Putin doesn't expect to bluff for the win, nor is he thinking of a showdown. You exploit an opening then consolidate before advancing the game.
He is neither stupid nor suicidal, so Russia will not be next stirring conflict at Baltics like many Western hawks wish to believe.
Dunno, dunno.. (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-201/#4173)
Eston Kohver, an Estonian intelligence officer who was, according to Estonia, abducted and taken across the border to Russia yesterday, has appeared in Moscow, where is being detained. The Estonian authorities reported that smoke grenades were used and that there were signs of a violent struggle. In addition, it was reported that communications signals in the area were jammed at the time of the reported abduction.
Meanwhile the FSB claimed yesterday that Kohver had been arrested on Russian territory, in the Pskov region.
Odd timing.
Gilrandir
09-06-2014, 18:49
Odd timing.
The Nadia Savchenko style.
http://www.rferl.org/content/savchenko-ukrainian-badass-pilot-in-russian-jail/25452738.html
Kagemusha
09-07-2014, 00:32
Dunno, dunno.. (http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-201/#4173)
Odd timing.
I knew about that when i made my earlier post. Its nothing in military sense of things. The fact remains in the current reality we live in. Nuclear armed coalitions or nations do not wage war until the time comes when the deterrent can be nullified.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-07-2014, 01:42
I knew about that when i made my earlier post. Its nothing in military sense of things. The fact remains in the current reality we live in. Nuclear armed coalitions or nations do not wage war until the time comes when the deterrent can be nullified.
The next logical escalation after Ukraine (having already crippled Georgia) is to destabilise the Baltics. Doing so will tie NATO down much more effectively than crippling Ukraine.
As to Russian regulars, I myself think they're small units, probably companies of contract soldiers drawn from larger formations (those formations actually being on exercises).
I think a relatively small spearhead of Russian tanks and paratroopers would allow the rebels to make large gains as they have. An injection of regulars would unbalance the Ukrainians, changing the nature of the conflict and escalating it in a way that Ukraine was not ready for.
The big worry, though, is that Ukraine is going to start running out of munitions and spares - although the country has its own military manufacturing sector it's unlikely it has huge stockpiles of supplies to maintain a shooting war, given its poor economic performance over the last few years and rampant corruption.
As noted by others, it's unlike the Ukrainians have enough gear lying around in the East to keep the rebels supplied, they probably can't keep themselves supplied. Poland and the other former Warsaw Pact countries may have some reserves of what Urkaine needs, but they can't give it until NATO moves to support Ukraine militarily, and they've been moving over to NATO gear so their own stockpiles probably aren't huge.
All of which is to say that Putin just has to keep the rebels supplied long enough to out-last the Ukrainian army.
a completely inoffensive name
09-07-2014, 01:58
Obviously, we just need to take the money for Social Security and make a giant Iron Dome over all of Western Europe.
Cameron will chip in and just say it is to keep out muslims.
Gilrandir
09-07-2014, 05:34
Russia's national game is chess, not poker.
Wrong!!! Russia's national game is World of tanks.
Wrong!!! Russia's national game is World of tanks.
Love that game, those Russians know what's good.
I knew about that when i made my earlier post. Its nothing in military sense of things. The fact remains in the current reality we live in. Nuclear armed coalitions or nations do not wage war until the time comes when the deterrent can be nullified.
You got to start somewhere in order to escalate gradually. That's the potential I am looking at.
Sarmatian
09-07-2014, 17:01
Love that game, those Russians know what's good.
Actually, it's made by a team from Belarus.
Actually, it's made by a team from Belarus.
I am aware of that, but we were not talking about the people who make it, but the people who enjoy it, and they are mostly Russians. Russia is the game's core market.
It's only a matter of time before Belarus starts longing for the Motherland anyway, so it's not like there's much of a difference.
Naahh, it will be an orange revolution and it will join NATO.
Sarmatian
09-08-2014, 07:15
I am aware of that, but we were not talking about the people who make it, but the people who enjoy it, and they are mostly Russians. Russia is the game's core market.
That's because Putin encourages them to play. It's a part of his secret plan to have people trained in tank warfare when he declares war on western Europe and enacts mass mobilization.
That's because Putin encourages them to play. It's a part of his secret plan to have people trained in tank warfare when he declares war on western Europe and enacts mass mobilization.
I can't wait, but if they use that game for tank tactics training, then I'm seriously worried about the success of that invasion.
Seamus Fermanagh
09-08-2014, 14:43
Wrong!!! Russia's national game is World of tanks.
Then why do they all play on the NA server?
Seamus Fermanagh
09-08-2014, 14:43
I can't wait, but if they use that game for tank tactics training, then I'm seriously worried about the success of that invasion.
WOT is unrealistic? Next you will be telling me there is no Santa.
Pannonian
09-08-2014, 16:10
Then why do they all play on the NA server?
Scouting enemy terrain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Dawn).
Rhyfelwyr
09-08-2014, 17:14
Looks like Putin is definitely attempting to destabilize relations with the Baltic states:
Lithuania says Russia reopens Soviet conscript cases (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-29111188)
"Russia appears to be reopening criminal investigations against Lithuanians who refused to serve in the Soviet armed forces after the country declared independence nearly 25 years ago.
The Lithuanian prosecutor-general's office says Russia has asked for legal assistance over Lithuanians who defied orders to do their Soviet military service in 1990-91, the Delfi news portal reports. But the request was denied, a spokeswoman says, since it does not involve a criminal offence in Lithuania. The news has prompted Lithuanian security services to strongly advise the relevant people not to go to Russia or other non-EU and non-Nato countries for now. Doing so could "jeopardise the personal safety of citizens", they say."
Ah yeah. Lithuanian Police arrested a Russian National (a Russian national was arrested in March in Lithuania in connection with the 1991 attack by Soviet forces, your BBC sources) and "Putin is definitely attempting to destabilize relations with the Baltic states"
:laugh4:
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-08-2014, 22:52
Ah yeah. Lithuanian Police arrested a Russian National (a Russian national was arrested in March in Lithuania in connection with the 1991 attack by Soviet forces, your BBC sources) and "Putin is definitely attempting to destabilize relations with the Baltic states"
:laugh4:
Ah, so "Pot Kettle black" means the kettle isn't black now.
It's September 9th and Putin is still a Fascist.
a completely inoffensive name
09-09-2014, 01:45
At this point I may as well just thank everything PVC is saying in here.
“Ah, so "Pot Kettle black" means the kettle isn't black now.” You missed the point. The 2 kettles are black, but you still believe one is not.
“It's September 9th and Putin is still a Fascist.” You still miss the point. You believe in truth by repetition?
Seamus Fermanagh
09-09-2014, 14:18
“Ah, so "Pot Kettle black" means the kettle isn't black now.” You missed the point. The 2 kettles are black, but you still believe one is not.
“It's September 9th and Putin is still a Fascist.” You still miss the point. You believe in truth by repetition?
Repetition is not an alethiologic tool, it is a mnemonic and rhetorical tool.
By hammering home the "still a fascist" assessment with a repetitive and vaguely poetic lead in the authors are attempting to make "fascist" the over-riding lens through which the readers view Putin and his actions/policies. Make that phrase stick and you establish a "brand."
Same basic idea behind Kellog's Frosted Flakes "Theeeee're Great!" slogan.
Pannonian
09-09-2014, 14:46
Repetition is not an alethiologic tool, it is a mnemonic and rhetorical tool.
By hammering home the "still a fascist" assessment with a repetitive and vaguely poetic lead in the authors are attempting to make "fascist" the over-riding lens through which the readers view Putin and his actions/policies. Make that phrase stick and you establish a "brand."
Same basic idea behind Kellog's Frosted Flakes "Theeeee're Great!" slogan.
The repetitive theme in PVC's advocated policies that sticks in my mind is the Blairist range of foreign interventions he'd have us involved in. We should have intervened in Ukraine, we should have intervened in Syria, we should intervene in Iraq, we were right to intervene in Libya, etc. My own repetitive theme, that we should stand aside and watch from a distance, has been re-affirmed a number of times, both from the success and the failure of our foreign policies (the sole success in this form being our non-intervention in Syria). With Scotland likely to break off, our ability to intervene abroad will probably be even lesser in the future, or at least the immediate future while we sort out our internal affairs. And if we're not able to do anything, it wouldn't be fair for us to press others to do what we can't do.
Gilrandir
09-09-2014, 15:13
With Scotland likely to break off, our ability to intervene abroad will probably be even lesser in the future, or at least the immediate future while we sort out our internal affairs.
If Scotland breaks away it won't be your internal affair any more, but an intervention abroad, so nothing will really change.
If anyone is interested, here is the speech Illarionov (the former aide of Putin) made in Vilnius (May 31) where he speaks on the existence of a plan regarding Ukraine (called "Operation clockwork orange") which Putin developed in 2004.
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/06/14/world-war-vi-statement-made-by-a-illarionov-at-the-nato-parliamentary-assembly/
Gilrandir
09-09-2014, 18:40
Have a look at this one:
http://giga.ua/%D0%B2-%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B5-%D0%B2%D0%BE-%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%8F-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0-%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%B4-%D0%B8/
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-10-2014, 00:10
The repetitive theme in PVC's advocated policies that sticks in my mind is the Blairist range of foreign interventions he'd have us involved in. We should have intervened in Ukraine, we should have intervened in Syria, we should intervene in Iraq, we were right to intervene in Libya, etc. My own repetitive theme, that we should stand aside and watch from a distance, has been re-affirmed a number of times, both from the success and the failure of our foreign policies (the sole success in this form being our non-intervention in Syria). With Scotland likely to break off, our ability to intervene abroad will probably be even lesser in the future, or at least the immediate future while we sort out our internal affairs. And if we're not able to do anything, it wouldn't be fair for us to press others to do what we can't do.
In Syria men are literally eating the hearts of their enemies.
Once Syria and Iraq roughly stabalise there will be a bloody ethnic conflict between those countries and the Kurds, unwilling to give up their territorial gains.
You might argue that in the long run (a century, perhaps) that will be for the best - but what's happening in Syria right now cannot be called a success in terms of foreign policy.
Also - Russia is different because it affects us directly - it's like ripping off a plaster, the longer you wait to go to war with Russia the worse it will feel.
Pannonian
09-10-2014, 01:35
In Syria men are literally eating the hearts of their enemies.
Once Syria and Iraq roughly stabalise there will be a bloody ethnic conflict between those countries and the Kurds, unwilling to give up their territorial gains.
You might argue that in the long run (a century, perhaps) that will be for the best - but what's happening in Syria right now cannot be called a success in terms of foreign policy.
Also - Russia is different because it affects us directly - it's like ripping off a plaster, the longer you wait to go to war with Russia the worse it will feel.
Even rvg, someone who loathed Assad in the past, has said since then that he'd rather have a hundred Assads than one ISIS. By not taking action against him, we've left at least one faction that can be used to check ISIS in the region, and moreover by not spending any money in the process nor committing any of our troops. Especially as it looks like we'll have to see how our forces will be split before we can plan for any foreign adventures in the future.
Part of the reason Syria is so bad might be that someone - we only know it wasn't Britain and we wouldn't want to blame anyone of course - did apparently actually deliver weapons to the Syrian rebels.
I assume the minus signs are not grammatically of the correct length here, apologies to Lemur for that.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-10-2014, 12:14
Even rvg, someone who loathed Assad in the past, has said since then that he'd rather have a hundred Assads than one ISIS. By not taking action against him, we've left at least one faction that can be used to check ISIS in the region, and moreover by not spending any money in the process nor committing any of our troops. Especially as it looks like we'll have to see how our forces will be split before we can plan for any foreign adventures in the future.
Assad vs ISIS?
Did you consider that the ruin Assad made of Syria spawned ISIS? Hell, didn't ISIS germinate AS A SYRIAN REBEL GROUP?
I mean, come on here.
Saying "Oh it's good we didn't topple Assad because now we need him to fight the rebels he was already fighting" is circular logic, it's also an example of the "realpolitik that makes the Arabs hate the West so much.
And wasn't the Middle East turned into a mess by the British Crusades (I saw it in the movies, the British king led the Crusade and they all spoke English anyway) and the British Colonialism in the first place? That's also what made them hate the West. Britain colonialized them, told them Britain represents the West even though it's not even part of Europe according to itself and now they hate us all just because of Britain!!! I'M SO ANGOR!!! :dizzy2:
It's also circular logic to say that because our meddling messed them up, we now have to meddle more to fix the problems our meddling always causes.
Seamus Fermanagh
09-10-2014, 13:44
And wasn't the Middle East turned into a mess by the British Crusades (I saw it in the movies, the British king led the Crusade and they all spoke English anyway)....
Nobody wants to try to resurrect medieval Norman-French. Instead, everyone speaks more-or-less modern English with cheesy accents. Better all around.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-10-2014, 14:23
And wasn't the Middle East turned into a mess by the British Crusades (I saw it in the movies, the British king led the Crusade and they all spoke English anyway) and the British Colonialism in the first place? That's also what made them hate the West. Britain colonialized them, told them Britain represents the West even though it's not even part of Europe according to itself and now they hate us all just because of Britain!!! I'M SO ANGOR!!! :dizzy2:
It's also circular logic to say that because our meddling messed them up, we now have to meddle more to fix the problems our meddling always causes.
Well, if you want to get Technical, it was all fine before the Muslims came and started oppressing the Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians.
What I'm talking about is consistency.
The Libyan dictator starts killing him own people - there's an uprising - we immediately offer material support to the opposition - dictator toppled and killed.
Around the Arab world people start saying "maybe these Christians aren't so bad..."
The Syrian Dictator starts doing the same thing, even uses chemical weapons, and we say "eh, let the locals sort it out in a bloodbath."
Also - see the 1991 failure to support the Marsh Arabs in Iraq.
It's not hard to formulate a strategy based on past experience:
When dictator goes nuts and starts killing so many people it triggers an uprising we should support the uprising early, whilst the loudest voices are the intellectuals and the reformers, before the Islamists gain control of the discourse and the ensuing revolution.
Likewise, we should extend support to Ukraine because Putin is a dictator who annexed their territory and instigated and funded an uprising - and because he's so obviously an enemy of the West.
It's not hard to formulate a strategy based on past experience:
When dictator goes nuts and starts killing so many people it triggers an uprising we should support the uprising early, whilst the loudest voices are the intellectuals and the reformers, before the Islamists gain control of the discourse and the ensuing revolution.
Likewise, we should extend support to Ukraine because Putin is a dictator who annexed their territory and instigated and funded an uprising - and because he's so obviously an enemy of the West.
Likewise? You mean likewise we should have supported the Ukrainian uprising against the unelected Maidan dictator while it was supported by the factory workers and before the extremists turned it into an insurgency with Russian backing.
Both Iran and Russia also saw street protests before, maybe we should have sent our militaries there as well before they were brutally oppressed? And then I was waiting for American drones when people protested against fissile material transports and the Stuttgart train station here and claimed that the police were too brutal. And why is the British military not supporting the protesters in Ferguson against the fascist government? It's 2014 and the government in Ferguson ist still fascist!
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-10-2014, 23:59
Likewise? You mean likewise we should have supported the Ukrainian uprising against the unelected Maidan dictator while it was supported by the factory workers and before the extremists turned it into an insurgency with Russian backing.
Was there a time before they were backed by Russia, was there a time when Kiev instigated the conflict by mass-slaughter.
IRRC, immediately prior to armed gunmen overthrowing the state there were pro and anti Kiev protests in those regions.
Maybe it's because I'm British and therefore believe in parliament, not a court or constitution, but to me the impeachment of the Ukrainian president by the Rada is in itself rather unremarkable, and certainly I have no problem with that sort of thing.
Obviously some of the Ukrainian MP's are thugs, and Right Sector and not very nice people - but replacing the president with the Speaker of the Rada based on a vote by the Rada after he flees office?
Very "meh" for everyone in Blighty.
Was there a time before they were backed by Russia, was there a time when Kiev instigated the conflict by mass-slaughter.
IRRC, immediately prior to armed gunmen overthrowing the state there were pro and anti Kiev protests in those regions.
Maybe it's because I'm British and therefore believe in parliament, not a court or constitution, but to me the impeachment of the Ukrainian president by the Rada is in itself rather unremarkable, and certainly I have no problem with that sort of thing.
Obviously some of the Ukrainian MP's are thugs, and Right Sector and not very nice people - but replacing the president with the Speaker of the Rada based on a vote by the Rada after he flees office?
Very "meh" for everyone in Blighty.
What about the reports that the families of several MPs were threatened by the not so nice elements of the right sector in order to make them "vote the right way"? And the other problem was that the East had been complaining about the new direction of the government for quite a while before anyone took up arms and the interim government pretty much ignored it over Crimea, even though they couldn't do anything about Crimea but might have been able to prevent the separatists from springing up if they had addressed the issues people there complained about. One of those being the feared loss of jobs if Kiev would continue to break ties with Russia, which was more or less the intent of the Maidan movement since it came up when Yanukovich wanted to keep those ties with Russia instead of moving towards the EU.
It's almost like the country can only serve the West or the East and either way 50% of the people are unhappy and will revolt. The revolt in the East ended up being a separatist movement backed up by Russia, but they would've had to fight their way through all the pro-west people to topple the federal government again. How is it possible that the pro-west governments always come from revolutions while the pro-east ones always get elected? And why can't the country do business with east and west? The way all this has played out makes it looks like the country is screwed between two extremes. :shrug:
Rhyfelwyr
09-11-2014, 09:33
The Ukrainian government has been giving official backing to openly neo-Nazi paramilitaries, for example the Azov brigade (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html).
https://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a549/Rhyfelgah/azov_zpsbf3183cd.jpg (http://s1283.photobucket.com/user/Rhyfelgah/media/azov_zpsbf3183cd.jpg.html)
A quote from one member:
"“Personally, I’m a Nazi,” said “Phantom”, a 23-year-old former lawyer at the ceremony wearing camouflage and holding a Kalashnikov. “I don’t hate any other nationalities but I believe each nation should have its own country.” He added: “We have one idea: to liberate our land from terrorists.”
...Asked about his Nazi sympathies, he said: “After the First World World War, Germany was a total mess and Hitler rebuilt it: he built houses and roads, put in telephone lines, and created jobs. I respect that.” Homosexuality is a mental illness and the scale of the Holocaust “is a big question”, he added."
On Andriy Biletsky, commander of the Azov battalion:
"A former history student and amateur boxer, Mr Biletsky is also head of an extremist Ukrainian group called the Social National Assembly. “The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival,” he wrote in a recent commentary. “A crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen.”
The battalion itself is founded on right wing views, the commander said in Urzuf, and no Nazi convictions could exclude a recruit. “The most important thing is being a good fighter and a good brother so that we can trust each other,” he said."
A quote from another member in a Guardian article (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis):
""I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia," said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. "But Putin's not even a Russian. Putin's a Jew.""
rory_20_uk
09-11-2014, 10:20
And in WW2, Britain who went to war to defend Poland... was in an alliance with a power who invaded Poland alongside the Nazis and then occupied it after the war.
"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the ... therefore would have been spoken of favorably as an ally against Hitler" - Churchill
Desperation makes strange bedfellows and since the army is weak, the West is providing little aid they are getting any help where they can.
~:smoking:
a 23-year-old former lawyer
:inquisitive:
Sounds like he is a brilliant person if he was already a practicing lawyer at age 23, maybe we should all become Nazis and follow his lead. :sweatdrop:
I mean here, most people who study law are already 28+ or so before they actually become lawyers.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-11-2014, 11:00
:inquisitive:
Sounds like he is a brilliant person if he was already a practicing lawyer at age 23, maybe we should all become Nazis and follow his lead. :sweatdrop:
I mean here, most people who study law are already 28+ or so before they actually become lawyers.
That's Germany though - 23 would be about right for someone having just started practice here.
Rhyfelwyr
09-11-2014, 12:59
And in WW2, Britain who went to war to defend Poland... was in an alliance with a power who invaded Poland alongside the Nazis and then occupied it after the war.
"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the ... therefore would have been spoken of favorably as an ally against Hitler" - Churchill
Desperation makes strange bedfellows and since the army is weak, the West is providing little aid they are getting any help where they can.
To run with your analogy... are you saying that we should support the 'Nazis' against the 'Soviets'?
rory_20_uk
09-11-2014, 13:07
My analagy was to demonstrate that when one's back is to the wall, one takes the allies one can get rather than the allies one would like.
Britain's dislike of the Soviets stretches back to the end of WW1 and Russia in general before that. In the first Nazis vs Soviets we should have kept well out of it; members of the Viking Legion thought the Soviet threat was worth dying for.
This time around things are much less clear cut, and rather depends on what percentage of the East wants to return to the Good Old Days as a Russian satellite. I would hope that aid directed at the Ukranian armed forces would leave these persons in a position to be slaughtered by the Rebels / patriotic heroes.
~:smoking:
Gilrandir
09-11-2014, 14:55
Well, if you want to get Technical, it was all fine before the Muslims came and started oppressing the Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians.
I read "The History of Crusades" by Steve Runciman, where he explicitly states that before the First Crusade in Jerusalem (as well as in other conquered areas) Muslems were expressly tolerant to other confessions and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (especially orthodox cristians) were dissatisfied with the prospect of their christian brethren ruling Jerusalem and even opposed crusaders.
You mean likewise we should have supported the Ukrainian uprising against the unelected Maidan dictator while it was supported by the factory workers and before the extremists turned it into an insurgency with Russian backing.
You call Turchinov a dictator?:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: One can call this meek milksop whatever but a dictator.
And the other problem was that the East had been complaining about the new direction of the government for quite a while before anyone took up arms and the interim government pretty much ignored it over Crimea, even though they couldn't do anything about Crimea but might have been able to prevent the separatists from springing up if they had addressed the issues people there complained about.
Once again, people were complaining across much of the south-east but it took Putin to turn protests in two regions into an armed conflict. Whatever you may say of the interrim government, it addressed the issue you mention in Kherson, Mykolayiv, Odesa, Kharkiv, Zaporizhya, Dnipropetrovsk. In some regions it wasn't too peaceful like Odesa, for instance, but looking back I would say that several dozens victims there saved it from what Donbas is facing now.
It's almost like the country can only serve the West or the East and either way 50% of the people are unhappy and will revolt.
As the presidential elections showed, there is no more 50/50 division in the country as to the external course and relations with Russia.
The revolt in the East ended up being a separatist movement backed up by Russia, but they would've had to fight their way through all the pro-west people to topple the federal government again.
1. Not "backed", but "instigated by Russia and headed by Russians".
2. Since when Ukraine has "federal" government? Is it a Freudian slip of the tongue (it seems that Merkel is fond of federalization)?
And why can't the country do business with east and west?
The Ukrainian government (even in the times of Yanukovych) has been painstakingly trying to persuade Russia in the positive answer to the question you ask, but Putin seems to be bent on forcing Ukraine into the choice you mention.
The Ukrainian government has been giving official backing to openly neo-Nazi paramilitaries
Some curious facts to note in connection with the article you refer to:
1. In spite of its alledgedly anti-semitic rhetorics, "Azov" has been financed by Kolomoysky (if this name says anything to you). The same is rumoured of the Right Sector.
2. I don't think much of an article in which Yanukovych is called "Vladimir".
3. For quite a time my wife has been interested in runes. She says that the emblem of "Azov" is composed of two of them. One is overturned Eihwas (the rune of defense) and the second is Teiwaz (the rune of victory). The latter was somehow disfigured (deprived of the arrow at the top) and thus inadvertantly turned into the rune Isa (ice) - the rune of stopping and preserving. Well, you can make a deeper study into the symbolism of runes if you wish. Most of other symbols the article mentions go back either to runes or Indian philosophic tradition.
I read "The History of Crusades" by Steve Runciman, where he explicitly states that before the First Crusade in Jerusalem (as well as in other conquered areas) Muslems were expressly tolerant to other confessions and the inhabitants of Jerusalem (especially orthodox cristians) were dissatisfied with the prospect of their christian brethren ruling Jerusalem and even opposed crusaders.
I had a similar memory although I'm no expert. But PVC probably believes everything the pope said at the time about desecrated holy sites and mass murders and stuff to rile people up against the filthy unbelievers. IIRC they did put a stop to christians travelling there for religious reasons though.
You call Turchinov a dictator?:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4: One can call this meek milksop whatever but a dictator.
Same is probably true for Yanukovich then, according to pro-Ukrainians in this threa, he was a weakling and a puppet who ran away at the first sign of trouble and abandoned his country, hardly an evil powerful dictator.
Once again, people were complaining across much of the south-east but it took Putin to turn protests in two regions into an armed conflict. Whatever you may say of the interrim government, it addressed the issue you mention in Kherson, Mykolayiv, Odesa, Kharkiv, Zaporizhya, Dnipropetrovsk. In some regions it wasn't too peaceful like Odesa, for instance, but looking back I would say that several dozens victims there saved it from what Donbas is facing now.
By addressed you mean suppressed? That was not what I meant.
As the presidential elections showed, there is no more 50/50 division in the country as to the external course and relations with Russia.
:laugh4: Yeah, that was inevitable, if it was almost 50/50 and Putin annexed a region that was stronlgy pro-Russian, then it's not nearly 50/50 anymore.
1. Not "backed", but "instigated by Russia and headed by Russians".
2. Since when Ukraine has "federal" government? Is it a Freudian slip of the tongue (it seems that Merkel is fond of federalization)?
1. Just like Maidan was backed and potentially instigated by NATO countries.
2. Should have said national government I guess but sometimes the right word just doesn't come to mind.
The Ukrainian government (even in the times of Yanukovych) has been painstakingly trying to persuade Russia in the positive answer to the question you ask, but Putin seems to be bent on forcing Ukraine into the choice you mention.
Now that is a good reason to start WW3, I say the British go first and we will be right behind them of course!
We will double every tank battalion the Dutch send!
A quote from another member in a Guardian article (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis):
""I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia," said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. "But Putin's not even a Russian. Putin's a Jew.""
An important quote:
The Azov are a minority among the Ukrainian forces, and even they, however unpleasant their views may be, are not anti-Russian; in fact the lingua franca of the battalion is Russian, and most have Russian as their first language.
These nazis are not the Russian-hating nazis you* are looking for.
As the article says it:
Indeed, much of what Azov members say about race and nationalism is strikingly similar to the views of the more radical Russian nationalists fighting with the separatist side.
In the east, you find fascists and neo-nazis fighting for both sides.
* generic you
Pannonian
09-11-2014, 20:37
Now that is a good reason to start WW3, I say the British go first and we will be right behind them of course!
We will double every tank battalion the Dutch send!
I have no doubt the BritishEnglish Army will do its duty.
Rhyfelwyr
09-11-2014, 22:03
Some curious facts to note in connection with the article you refer to:
1. In spite of its alledgedly anti-semitic rhetorics, "Azov" has been financed by Kolomoysky (if this name says anything to you). The same is rumoured of the Right Sector.
2. I don't think much of an article in which Yanukovych is called "Vladimir".
3. For quite a time my wife has been interested in runes. She says that the emblem of "Azov" is composed of two of them. One is overturned Eihwas (the rune of defense) and the second is Teiwaz (the rune of victory). The latter was somehow disfigured (deprived of the arrow at the top) and thus inadvertantly turned into the rune Isa (ice) - the rune of stopping and preserving. Well, you can make a deeper study into the symbolism of runes if you wish. Most of other symbols the article mentions go back either to runes or Indian philosophic tradition.
That is all moot when the leader of the brigade has himself openly said that only committed Nazis can serve under him. You can't get around the fact that the Azov Bridage are neo-Nazis. The question is, will you condemn them?
An important quote:
These nazis are not the Russian-hating nazis you* are looking for.
In the east, you find fascists and neo-nazis fighting for both sides.
Yeah I noticed that in the article. My point wasn't that they were Russian-hating Nazis, just that they were neo-Nazi's. In some ways there is almost a strange sort of mutual respect on each side for the nationalism of the other.
Kralizec
09-11-2014, 23:25
Now that is a good reason to start WW3, I say the British go first and we will be right behind them of course!
We will double every tank battalion the Dutch send!
I see what you did there
Kagemusha
09-12-2014, 13:38
I have a very bad feeling about the silence of Russia concerning the new EU trade sanctions. Something is cooking, but i dont know what.
Gilrandir
09-12-2014, 14:37
Same is probably true for Yanukovich then, according to pro-Ukrainians in this threa, he was a weakling and a puppet who ran away at the first sign of trouble and abandoned his country, hardly an evil powerful dictator.
Before his escapade he managed to do such things and have such laws adopted that eventually caused the said escapade.
By addressed you mean suppressed? That was not what I meant.
If, as a result of the suppression, no one was killed or hurt much (Odesa is an exception, but I expressed my hindsight upon it) you may call it a suppression. Instead, in regions where such suppression didn't happen there is a full-scale war. In view of this, I favor suppression you speak of.
:laugh4: Yeah, that was inevitable, if it was almost 50/50 and Putin annexed a region that was stronlgy pro-Russian, then it's not nearly 50/50 anymore.
You don't seem to heed what I have repeatedly said: the sentiment of what was considered "the pro-Russian" part of Ukraine has changed (or else it was not so pro-Russian as it was believed to be). It doesn't matter whether Crimea is counted or not, the pro-Russain course commends itself less and less all over Ukraine, including those regions I spoke of. Russain-speakers are as numerous among pro-Ukrainians as Ukrainian-speakers.
That is all moot when the leader of the brigade has himself openly said that only committed Nazis can serve under him. You can't get around the fact that the Azov Bridage are neo-Nazis. The question is, will you condemn them?
I know that during times of turmoil there are lots of different marginals who come to the spotlight more often than they would otherwise, so I think that such people are present in the ATO forces. Do I condemn them?
During WWII there was a widespread anti-German (not anti-Nazi, mind you) propaganda in the USSR (I don't know how about the Western countries). A poet Ilya Erenburg wrote a poem called "Kill the German" which was popularized both at the fronts and among the peaceful population. It helped to rally the people and fight the invaders. Do you condemn him?
I would condemn Azov if I heard that it hurt or killed people on the national ground. So far they do not invade Russia or penetrate its territory to wreak havoc there. They are only defending Ukraine's integrity being mostly deployed to protect the Russian-speaking city of Mariupol. As long as they do it I support it.
Speaking of Mariupol, a curious thing I saw on TV: a man of about forty was digging trenches outside the city. He said to the correspondent that he was born in Mariupol, but he was an ethnic Russian living in Mariupol. His mother comes from Kursk and his father from St. Petersburg, but he came to dig trenches every day (with his kids) to stop Russians from advancing. He says that he can't still come to grips with his mind and explain to himself what was going on in this world.
Gilrandir
09-12-2014, 14:39
I have a very bad feeling about the silence of Russia concerning the new EU trade sanctions. Something is cooking, but i dont know what.
They say that Russia would forbade used cars and clothes import from Europe. Yet those are rumours circulating in Moscow and picked up by journalists.
Gilrandir
09-12-2014, 14:50
A thing to note: DPR appeared in 2006 and has connections with Seliger conventions forwarded and much looked after by Putin.
http://u.d3.ru/comments/580845/
I have a very bad feeling about the silence of Russia concerning the new EU trade sanctions. Something is cooking, but i dont know what.
Winter is coming. Has the EU solved it's gas problem yet?
rory_20_uk
09-12-2014, 15:27
Winter is coming. Has the EU solved it's gas problem yet?
Short answer - no.
The LNG terminals are not ready yet for the imports that would be reuquired.
Germany needs to turn on the Nuclear plants to get the juices flowing.
~:smoking:
And then everybody turns to electric heating? I can see the dollar bills in the eyes of the electricity company execs with that scenario in mind....
rory_20_uk
09-12-2014, 15:56
Given the three options are:
Capitulate and let Russia do whatever it wants for Winter
Press on with no heating
Use electricity
I think that of the three, the third is the least worst.
~:smoking:
Seamus Fermanagh
09-12-2014, 16:39
Given the three options are:
Capitulate and let Russia do whatever it wants for Winter
Press on with no heating
Use electricity
I think that of the three, the third is the least worst.
~:smoking:
You could always go with the approach used by Imperial Japan. Launch a surprise attack in early December and then take over the "Eastern Resource Area."
Look how well it worked out for .....er....hmmmm......
"Do I condemn them?" Short answer: No.
"Do you condemn him?" Text written in 1942 when Germans were killing Russians by millions. Not really the same thing, isn't it? Did the Russians killed all the Germans? No.
Gilrandir
09-13-2014, 17:00
"Do I condemn them?" Short answer: No.
Brenus is back in the game!! And this game is giving answers to the questions he wasn't asked, putting his words into others' mouths, and evading giving answers to qestions he chooses to comment on (see below).
"Do you condemn him?" Text written in 1942 when Germans were killing Russians by millions. Not really the same thing, isn't it?
The question was not addressed to you, but if you chipped in you are expected to give a yes/no answer.
Germans were killing not only Russians, but Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Jews and others by the same quantity. You like others to be precise, so apply the rule to yourself as well.
Did the Russians killed all the Germans? No.
Did and does Azov kill all Russians or ethnic Russians in Ukraine or Russian civilians by any numbers? No.
But you apply double standards. In Soviet/German call-for-killing issue what matters to you is that not all Germans were killed. The call itself doesn't seem to shock you.
In Azov/Russian case what matters to you is that such a call was issued (if we can roughly put it that way). The fact that no one was killed is not really important.
“And this game is giving answers to the questions he wasn't asked, putting his words into others' mouths, and evading giving answers to questions he chooses to comment on (see below).” So answer the question: Do or not condemn Nazi? I know the answer, you know the answer, just do tell.
“The question was not addressed to you, but if you chipped in you are expected to give a yes/no answer.” So, no, I do not condemn someone telling to kill the enemy when this one is invading.
Your turn.
http://youtu.be/HM-E2H1ChJM
This a song that calls to kill enemies
So does this one
http://youtu.be/FWZwd41kkA4
“Did and does Azov kill all Russians or ethnic Russians in Ukraine or Russian civilians by any numbers? No” As usual you mixed-up. A call to kill enemies and a political platform are different matters.
You support Nazi in denying they are Nazi and try to deflect the blow on none relevant matter. You use the usual methods of most of the Nazi-Sympathiser in making Nazism and Communism equal and in denying that Nazi Symbolism is not whatsoever Nazi as they have ancient roots (Sun Wheel, Celtic Cross and so one)… I know the trick, it is played from years ago by the extreme-right and Nazis.
And no, I do not care when in 1942 Russians made song to kill Germans. So did the French and probably others…
http://youtu.be/uTMe6-6VSuQ
This is another one you probably know under this version
http://youtu.be/oG4ndbhOkpI
Do note that the French Text (original) tells the Germans, not the Soldiers...
Gilrandir
09-14-2014, 06:30
So answer the question: Do or not condemn Nazi? I know the answer, you know the answer, just do tell.
In fact, you answered the question for me below, but now I agree to your unsolicited interference, so my (and your) answer reads:
no, I do not condemn someone telling to kill the enemy when this one is invading.
“Did and does Azov kill all Russians or ethnic Russians in Ukraine or Russian civilians by any numbers? No” As usual you mixed-up. A call to kill enemies and a political platform are different matters.
A song one sings may well be the result of a political plarform one supports, and vice versa, one may choose a political platform that chimes with a song.
You support Nazi in denying they are Nazi and try to deflect the blow on none relevant matter. You use the usual methods of most of the Nazi-Sympathiser in making Nazism and Communism equal and in denying that Nazi Symbolism is not whatsoever Nazi as they have ancient roots (Sun Wheel, Celtic Cross and so one)… I now the trick, it is played from years ago by the extreme-right and Nazis.
As ususal, you read what you like to read. In my view, supporting a party is agreeing to its ideology and voting for it. I did (and will do) neither of those regarding Svoboda, Right Sector or any other forces you qualify as nazis, nor I (will) support(ed) individual candidates of those parties. I offer a different (from yours) view on events. As you once said (I like to quote this one), one can't exclude any chances. But if you said that this fruit is orange, and I would say that it is banana, it doesn't mean I like bananas and dislike oranges. It just may be an argument that you are wrong, but it expresses no gastronomic preferences of mine.
I have no idea when I equated nazism and communism, so be so kind as to quote me. And how does this likening benefits nazis/communists?
As for symbolism, I offered an alternative reading of it which may have been in mind of those created the emblem of Azov. I may have been wrong, but you can never know unless you find this out from them. Until then both your and my readings are only suppositions.
And no, I do not care when in 1942 Russians made song to kill Germans. So did the French and probably others…
So, if in 2014 you heard or read (well, of course not in those abominable Cyrillic) a Ukrainian song calling to kill Russians (as they are invaders), you wouldn't care?
“I equated nazism and communism”: propaganda in the USSR = (You can't get around the fact that the Azov Bridage are neo-Nazis)=I would condemn Azov. So, you compare a Nazi to a Communist, and equal them.
“A song one sings may well be the result of a political platform” May, but the one YOU choose was due to an invasion, one of the most brutal in recent history and YOU cast a parallel between an ideology and the song.
“you read what you like to read” I read what you wrote.
“you qualify as Nazis” They qualify themselves as Nazi. I provided enough links from their speeches and demonstrations showing it.
“abominable Cyrillic” Can you explain your choice of words?
“as they are invaders” Oh? So the Russian Minorities in Ukraine are invaders in your eyes? Are they not Ukrainian Citizens who should have the full protection of Ukrainian laws? Interesting…
“unsolicited interference” In a public Forum?:laugh4: If you want to keep it private, PM others.
Gilrandir
09-14-2014, 12:16
“I equated nazism and communism”: propaganda in the USSR = (You can't get around the fact that the Azov Bridage are neo-Nazis)=I would condemn Azov. So, you compare a Nazi to a Communist, and equal them.
:dizzy2: I still don't see any connection between the USSR and Azov.
“A song one sings may well be the result of a political platform” May, but the one YOU choose was due to an invasion, one of the most brutal in recent history and YOU cast a parallel between an ideology and the song.
In times of trouble and (especially) in totalitarian societies songs (as well as literature) are pieces of ideology. So the poem by Erenburg articulates the public sentiment in the USSR of that time. Since it was allowed to be published it means that the ruling party approved of it and indeed saw it as a tool to combat the invasion and consolidate people's morale.
“you qualify as Nazis” They qualify themselves as Nazi. I provided enough links from their speeches and demonstrations showing it.
I also provided plethora of examples where they deny being nazis (to which Sarmatian remarked that only stupid nazis would admit it).
“abominable Cyrillic” Can you explain your choice of words?
You seemed to detest being offered evidence you couldn't understand so you explicitly expressed your dissatisfaction with the script it was in.
“as they are invaders” Oh? So the Russian Minorities in Ukraine are invaders in your eyes? Are they not Ukrainian Citizens who should have the full protection of Ukrainian laws? Interesting…
Not again. :wall: I was speaking of Russia as an invading state so Russian soldiers who constitute the bulk of the invading army from the invading state are invaders. Am I now clear?
But whatever fancy reading of my words you may have, there is no denying the fact that Azov didn't commit any crimes or atrocities against any Russians: neither against Ukrainian ethnic Russains, nor against civilian Russians from Russia, nor indeed against Russian regular soldiers of the Russian army from Russia. Moreover, it didn't and doesn't plot any actions against Russian-speaking Ukrainians (if it is a next point you would forward). On the contrary, it is deployed in almost exclusively Russian-speaking city of Mariupol (from where it has evicted DPR) and it enjoys trust of the locals who hope it will protect them from their Russian "brethren" and who in turn help it to strengthen its positions in and around the city. And in fact, most of Azov are locals from Donbas who are Russian-speakers themselves. In view of all this, if you could offer any evidence of Azov (or any other Ukrainian military) who tortured or killed someone on the ground that he/she was Russian or Russian-speaker I would consider your claims of them practising nazism.
“unsolicited interference” In a public Forum?:laugh4: If you want to keep it private, PM others.
It is true in discussions, not in questions addressed to someone in person.
If I am asked a question I consider it is addressed at me so I answer it. If I ask someone a question, I want to hear the opinion of this very person. Otherwise I shape the question as addressed at large using the markers as "any ideas?" of "would anyone ...". If you have a different understanding, why didn't you answer, for instance, Shaka Khan who asked ME if I live in Ukraine and if I was expatriate.
“I still don't see any connection between the USSR and Azov.” Read your own writing. I know it might be a harsh sentence...
“In times of trouble and (especially) in totalitarian societies songs (as well as literature) are pieces of ideology. So the poem by Erenburg articulates the public sentiment in the USSR of that time. Since it was allowed to be published it means that the ruling party approved of it and indeed saw it as a tool to combat the invasion and consolidate people's morale.” Errr, so what? That explain why you refuse to condemn Nazi nowadays in Ukraine? So to be a Ukrainian Nazi is acceptable now?
“I also provided plethora of examples where they deny being nazis (to which Sarmatian remarked that only stupid nazis would admit it).” Unconvincing examples, and all denied by the Ukrainian Nazi.
Sarmatian is free to have his opinions and judgments.
“You seemed to detest being offered evidence you couldn't understand so you explicitly expressed your dissatisfaction with the script it was in.” Again, you left your imagination taking the lead.
“I was speaking of Russia as an invading state so Russian soldiers who constitute the bulk of the invading army from the invading state are invaders. Am I now clear?” But this Army exists only in your imagination. So expressing the will to kill Russians is at this stage at least a wishful thinking. So writing a song about killing Russians is for the moment out of the picture. Or at least out of the extreme-nationalist/Nazi ranks.
“If you have a different understanding, why didn't you answer, for instance, Shaka Khan who asked ME if I live in Ukraine and if I was expatriate.” Err, because it is not compulsory? I can choose to intervene when and where I want in a public Forum.
Seamus Fermanagh
09-14-2014, 19:35
...A song one sings may well be the result of a political plarform one supports, and vice versa, one may choose a political platform that chimes with a song...
Finally someone has explained the enduring US popularity of "100 Bottles of Beer on the Wall."
Gilrandir
09-15-2014, 11:27
“In times of trouble and (especially) in totalitarian societies songs (as well as literature) are pieces of ideology. So the poem by Erenburg articulates the public sentiment in the USSR of that time. Since it was allowed to be published it means that the ruling party approved of it and indeed saw it as a tool to combat the invasion and consolidate people's morale.” Errr, so what? That explain why you refuse to condemn Nazi nowadays in Ukraine? So to be a Ukrainian Nazi is acceptable now?
“I also provided plethora of examples where they deny being nazis (to which Sarmatian remarked that only stupid nazis would admit it).” Unconvincing examples, and all denied by the Ukrainian Nazi.
I think I got positively tired of reiterating the same arguments again and again and you being convinced in the infallibility of your view and total disregard of the evidence others expose. You chose a very convenient position epitomized by the statement "these are all unconvincing examples". So I will give my final concise statement on the nazi issue.
Nazis/ultranationalists/right-wing extremists exist in all countries. Normally they keep in the background what with their small numbers and little sympathy to their ideas. In times of unrest they may come to the forefront (not necessarily increasing in numbers) being both bellicose and staunch in their morale. I don't think an average foreigner has heard of Svoboda (still less of the Right Sector) before Yanukovych has secured a grip on Ukraine. Then people turned to what they saw as an opposite to the Yanukovych regime. One thing that redounded to their rise is cancellation of the "I support neither party" option in the ballots before 2012 parliamentary elections (I presonally know a dozen people who voted for Svoboda because of that). So now nazis/ultranationalists/right-wing extremists have become rather conspicuous in Ukraine and even got into the government. But with (hopefully) the turmoils subduing, they will ebb everywhere. The proof of such tendency is the fact of the low support Tyagnybok and Yarosh got at the presidential elections in May. So October parlaimentary elections may bear out my prediction.
As for condemning nazis/ultranationalists/right-wing extremists, I haven't heard of anything they have DONE (not said, named organizations, gestured, wore or marched) which deserves condemnation. Other things mentioned in the parenthesis were done both by them and by others not bearing the name and thus not so despicable in your eyes (like Putin admiring Goebbels). As soon as something worth condemnation is done I may reconsider my position.
While the rise of such forces in Ukraine is quite explicable, other countries which are having totally different external and internal situation (namely France) are experiencing the advent of nazis as well. To tell the truth, I have an explanation to it but since you may not like it and cry foul that this is off the topic, I will not expand on it unless it is asked for.
And one more thing - on Nazi symbolsim:
14402
and in the links:
http://www.fr-online.de/home/verwirrung-in-offenbach-bornheim-wappen-ist-kein-nazi-symbol,1472778,3328960.html
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfschlugen
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleinblittersdorf
https://www.burgwedel.de/stadt/unsere-stadt/stadtwappen/
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dassendorf_Wappen.png
Do you see anything familiar? It seems that modern Germany is infested with Nazi-minded small communities. I don't know how far from either of them Husar lives, but let him beware: he doesn't need Ukrainain nazis coming for him, the local ones will do the job just fine. Or would do if they didn't have our redoubtable Brenus to oppose them.
“I was speaking of Russia as an invading state so Russian soldiers who constitute the bulk of the invading army from the invading state are invaders. Am I now clear?” But this Army exists only in your imagination. So expressing the will to kill Russians is at this stage at least a wishful thinking.
See how much you have progressed since spring: at first you denied that it was Russian regular army disguised in Crimea through the lack of proofs, then (on the same grounds) you denied the veracity of medals they received, next came the denial of the weapons and mercenaries from Russia in Donbas, then laughing at JUST three Russian tanks that were spotted there, now comes the blindness to see what all the world sees and knows - Russian direct intervention in Donbas. And I say nothing of the plane brought down - everybody (not only you) seemed to have forgotten and forgiven the perpetrators and their sponsors.
Go on, you are doing just fine. Next will be: "Oh, these are not russian nuclear missiles in the sky over Europe. For once, I didn't see any documents that can prove it, and there are just a dozen of them."
Err, because it is not compulsory? I can choose to intervene when and where I want in a public Forum.
Sure, you can do whatever you want, never mind the basic tenet of politeness "when another is asked, don't interfere".
Gilrandir
09-15-2014, 11:27
Sorry, repeated it twice.
And one more thing - on Nazi symbolsim:
14402
and in the links:
http://www.fr-online.de/home/verwirrung-in-offenbach-bornheim-wappen-ist-kein-nazi-symbol,1472778,3328960.html
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfschlugen
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleinblittersdorf
https://www.burgwedel.de/stadt/unsere-stadt/stadtwappen/
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dassendorf_Wappen.png
Do you see anything familiar? It seems that modern Germany is infested with Nazi-minded small communities. I don't know how far from either of them Husar lives, but let him beware: he doesn't need Ukrainain nazis coming for him, the local ones will do the job just fine. Or would do if they didn't have our redoubtable Brenus to oppose them.
Yeah, I also don't quite get the uproar over some harmless symbols:
http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-66809-galleryV9-gxxu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FeJVk.png
https://img397.imageshack.us/img397/3379/octopustigersmallos2.jpg
I mean can't you see that Hitler was just a Hindu?
Gilrandir
09-15-2014, 14:12
Yeah, I also don't quite get the uproar over some harmless symbols:
http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-66809-galleryV9-gxxu.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FeJVk.png
https://img397.imageshack.us/img397/3379/octopustigersmallos2.jpg
I mean can't you see that Hitler was just a Hindu?
What I mean to say is that you can get such deliberate or accidental similarities and associations around pretty often, yet Brenus and those of like mind with him tend to stress their ubiquity in Ukraine and think them not worth consideration when spotted elsewhere. Moreover, those that don't use them and claim to be fighting nazis (modern Russia) are forgiven anything and are sided with regardless of what they might DO, not just SAY or WEAR.
What I mean to say is that you can get such deliberate or accidental similarities and associations around pretty often, yet Brenus and those of like mind with him tend to stress their ubiquity in Ukraine and think them not worth consideration when spotted elsewhere. Moreover, those that don't use them and claim to be fighting nazis (modern Russia) are forgiven anything and are sided with regardless of what they might DO, not just SAY or WEAR.
You mean like in that video where the Ukrainian-type Nazi brigades DO fire at an ambulance?
Russia has already had Nazis long before this conflict started, but they DO NOT let them form their own coherent, Nazis-only, semi-independent combat units as far as I am aware. You're probably going to ay that a desperate Ukraine needs all the help it can get, but it's quite telling if that is the only help it can get.
And then there is the issue that these people seem to be quite well-equipped and privately funded, yet when there are well-equipped militias on the pro-russian side, it's obvious evidence that the Russian army equips them and unthinkable that they privately funded their gear and came there on their own. Why would Ukraine's Nazi militia be much more well-funded than any of the militia groups in Russia?
Gilrandir
09-15-2014, 15:17
You mean like in that video where the Ukrainian-type Nazi brigades DO fire at an ambulance?
You think that if they were regular Ukrainian army they wouldn't fire at an ambulance? In a war you get a lot of such things no matter how nazi or anti-nazi the units are. But as to this particular case, ATO spokesman, not a nazi (though you seem to think any Ukrainian wearing uniform is a nazi) claimed quite a while ago that separatists often used ambulances and - have no idea how you call the cars that bring/collect cash to/from banks - in Ukrainian they are inkasatory - in their own purposes: ambulances to safely approach Ukrainian checkpoints (there were some cases when such ambulances did it and started firing at the soldiers) and inkasator cars - to move around since they are well armored (for a civilian vehicle) and back then (unlike now) separatists had a lack of armored vehicles.
In view of this I wouldn't be surprised if such an accident took place. But separatists often shot at ordinary cars with civilians (sometimes bearing the sign of "children" on them). No reproach - they are nazi-fighters?
Russia has already had Nazis long before this conflict started, but they DO NOT let them form their own coherent, Nazis-only, semi-independent combat units as far as I am aware. You're probably going to ay that a desperate Ukraine needs all the help it can get, but it's quite telling if that is the only help it can get. And then there is the issue that these people seem to be quite well-equipped and privately funded, yet when there are well-equipped militias on the pro-russian side, it's obvious evidence that the Russian army equips them and unthinkable that they privately funded their gear and came there on their own. Why would Ukraine's Nazi militia be much more well-funded than any of the militia groups in Russia?
How do you know that such Ukrainian units are Nazi-only and are (semi-)independent? They contain a whole variety of people with different backgrounds, views, languages they speak. One thing they all have in common is their volunteer character. And they are not independent - their full title is volunteer battalions of the National Guard MVD of Ukraine. It is true that initially they were privately- or self-equipped (if privately then mostly by oligarchs - Kolomoysky, for instance, - you know this nazi, don't you), but now, after the Ilovaysk trap, they are getting heavy artillery and vehicles officially from the state as units within the state law-enforcement system.
You think that if they were regular Ukrainian army they wouldn't fire at an ambulance? In a war you get a lot of such things no matter how nazi or anti-nazi the units are. But as to this particular case, ATO spokesman, not a nazi (though you seem to think any Ukrainian wearing uniform is a nazi) claimed quite a while ago that separatists often used ambulances and - have no idea how you call the cars that bring/collect cash to/from banks - in Ukrainian they are inkasatory - in their own purposes: ambulances to safely approach Ukrainian checkpoints (there were some cases when such ambulances did it and started firing at the soldiers) and inkasator cars - to move around since they are well armored (for a civilian vehicle) and back then (unlike now) separatists had a lack of armored vehicles.
In view of this I wouldn't be surprised if such an accident took place. But separatists often shot at ordinary cars with civilians (sometimes bearing the sign of "children" on them). No reproach - they are nazi-fighters?
The citizens standing around didn't deem it necessary and were screaming quite concerned things when they shot at the ambiulance.
That the Ukrainian army would not hesitate to shoot at an ambulance is also quite reassuring. Maybe they also didn't hesitate to fire at MH-17 after all?
How do you know that such Ukrainian units are Nazi-only and are (semi-)independent? They contain a whole variety of people with different backgrounds, views, languages they speak. One thing they all have in common is their volunteer character. And they are not independent - their full title is volunteer battalions of the National Guard MVD of Ukraine. It is true that initially they were privately- or self-equipped (if privately then mostly by oligarchs - Kolomoysky, for instance, - you know this nazi, don't you), but now, after the Ilovaysk trap, they are getting heavy artillery and vehicles officially from the state as units within the state law-enforcement system.
How do you know that I was talking about all the volunteer units?
Hint: I wasn't.
About a year ago, Sergei Glazyev, an adviser to Putin, said (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/22/ukraine-european-union-trade-russia?commentpage=1) that Russia could not guarantee that Ukraine should not magically cease to exist as a state if it signed the EU association agreement:
We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.
"Signing this treaty will lead to political and social unrest," said the Kremlin aide. "The living standard will decline dramatically … there will be chaos."
Let me guess: Crimea would have been annexed and a "rebellion" in the east would started regardless of Yanukovych's ouster as long as any Ukrainian government was intent on signing the agreement.
“total disregard of the evidence others expose.” Never. But the fact is you never gave evidences.
“like Putin admiring Goebbels” Can’t find any credible link, Can you provide one, I am interested in this. By the way, I am not Putin’s supporter. I am again the lies and deception and the not-really-well -placed Western moral high grounds
“And one more thing - on Nazi symbolism”: You are just discovering that Nazi Symbolism is based on old and ancient symbols? Really?
“Or would do if they didn't have our redoubtable Brenus to oppose them.” I leave to you with your choice of word in a vain attempt of mockery, but be sure that yes, I will fight the Nazi with the means I have at my disposal. Can’t fight them any more with weapons, but I will fight where I can find them.
“See how much you have progressed since spring” You really don’t read others’ comments, do you? Or you just translate the words in your mental world and read only what you seek?
“you denied the veracity of medals they received” No pictures of one soldier having one on his chest, but you carry on with this fable…
“And I say nothing of the plane brought down - everybody (not only you) seemed to have forgotten and forgiven the perpetrators and their sponsors.” Because the unfortunate event has nothing to do with the political situation? A bit like this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1359353/Ukraine-admits-it-shot-down-Russian-airliner.html
“when another is asked, don't interfere".” :laugh4: You remind me my grand-daughter telling her big sister “it was you I talking to”:laugh4:
Gilrandir
09-17-2014, 14:24
How do you know that I was talking about all the volunteer units?
Hint: I wasn't.
Then you should have been more specific and named the units you were hinting at. I was talking about such battalions as Azov, Donbas, Aidar, Shakhtarsk, Kiyevskaya Rus, Artemovsk, Kyiv-1, Dnipro and others. They are volunteer battalions within MVD. If you mean others, put a name on them.
“like Putin admiring Goebbels” Can’t find any credible link, Can you provide one, I am interested in this.
Read his lips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLEOlA5O8aw
Can't help it: I POSTED THIS VIDEO THE DAY AFTER PUTIN SAID IT. TRY TO BE MORE ATTENTIVE READING THE THREAD (unless it is too dead to keep coming to it).
“And one more thing - on Nazi symbolism”: You are just discovering that Nazi Symbolism is based on old and ancient symbols? Really?
Let me quote yourself:
... a vain attempt of mockery...
You again don't get the point (or are pretending not to to exasperate me): I gave the examples of what you consider nazi symbols on modern coats-of-arms of some towns in Germany. Why do the same symbols evoke so much antipathy if they are spotted on the sleeves of uniforms and are OK if they are elsewhere?
be sure that yes, I will fight the Nazi with the means I have at my disposal. Can’t fight them any more with weapons, but I will fight where I can find them.
Then do fight. Because (to paraphrase someone) it is September 17 and French nazis are still in the European parliament.
“you denied the veracity of medals they received” No pictures of one soldier having one on his chest, but you carry on with this fable…
Everybody saw the medals. I told you why they can't be openly seen on soldiers. And I'm not going to search 20 pages back to repeat all the arguments. But it is Brenus all over: unless I see a mercenary openly admitting (on Russia Today) his having a contract I wouldn't believe it. And even if there is some open admission (like Putin admitting that Russian army was instrumental (to put it mildly) in capturing Crimea) you persist in denying it. Now who's being childish - me or the one who says I wouldn't believe stars are hot until I touch them with my own hands?
“And I say nothing of the plane brought down - everybody (not only you) seemed to have forgotten and forgiven the perpetrators and their sponsors.” Because the unfortunate event has nothing to do with the political situation?
Oh really? So the political situation in Ukraine (namely in Donbas) at the end of July had nothing to do with the accident? The next thing you will be saying is that even if there was no armed conflict in Donbas the plane would have still been brought down?
Somehow the horrendous and atrocious MP bullying keeps popping up now and then although it has been more than half a year ago (and deserves hanging by private parts, no doubt), but such a trifle as 300 people killed is just an unfortunate event to be sorry about and try to forget.
Gilrandir
09-17-2014, 14:34
If you haven't heard about the law passed:
http://lifeinua.info/laws-special-status-donbas-amnesty/
“you persist in denying it.” Do tell me where and when I “deny” Russian’s Intervention? I even compared it to air strikes… So, try again.
“Everybody saw the medals.” Nope, everybody saw a medal shown by a Ukrainian Central Government sympathiser pretending it was an official medal. As far as we know, he might have done it himself.
Let me explain how medal are given to soldiers: All the Regiment is in parade. Then the Head of the Regiment call the names of the receiver(s). Then, the Unit presents arms; Then a brief bugle to open the ceremony; One step forward, then, the Colonel (or General depending of the rank of the award) read a short message (on the order of the President of the Republic and the Chief of the Army, the medal of etc.), then salute, then he put on the chest the medal (with ruban), then one step backward, salute, then other one step forward and so and so. This with all cameras from the Regiment PR and families and friends flashing. So until now, you were not able to provide ONE picture of the delivery Ceremony. Because it never happened, because this medal never exist, for the good reason that the annexation of Crimea cannot be counted as a campaign, but probably as an exercise even not difficult.
Another option would be that it was so easy to earn it that not decent soldier would dare to show it…
“So the political situation in Ukraine (namely in Donbas) at the end of July had nothing to do with the accident?” Nope, it is because a civil war was raging (due to political unrest) where one side was using air power that the plane was shot down. It was a mistake, not a political or military target: so irrelevant in term of negotiation.
“If you haven't heard about the law passed”: Yeah, saw this, I just hope the Russian Extremists will not prevail and common sense will come back in both sides.
About the link, can’t read the lips, of course, so I can see Putin saying his admiration for Goebbels in front of Jewish representatives? Right? And it is the proof of Putin being a Nazi?
So, try again, a convincing link.
“if they are spotted on the sleeves of uniforms” The last word is a clue.
Sarmatian
09-17-2014, 18:33
Somehow the horrendous and atrocious MP bullying keeps popping up now and then although it has been more than half a year ago (and deserves hanging by private parts, no doubt), but such a trifle as 300 people killed is just an unfortunate event to be sorry about and try to forget.
There's a difference between an accident and a premeditated, organized and violent perversion of the democratic process.
Furthermore, the latter brought a much heavier toll in casualties, not to mention incalculable damage to society in Ukraine as a whole.
Seamus Fermanagh
09-17-2014, 19:20
Perhaps this should be handled via a champions contest. All agree to abide by the results.
100 persons on each side. Vodka shots at one shot per 5 minutes. Each shot is followed by an oral questioning. Last side with a person standing and able to answer multiplication table (1*1 through 12*12 inclusive) question wins.
A thoroughly Eastern-European resolution alternative.
EDIT: In the unlikely event of a perfect "draw" decision, sober them up, divide them into squads of 4 and have them play badminton matches -- highest out of 25 wins. Since neither is a badminton power, it should be fair (yes, the Russians medaled, but those chica's couldn't contribute well enough in the vodka portion to stay on the champions squad).
Sarmatian
09-17-2014, 19:31
Perhaps this should be handled via a champions contest. All agree to abide by the results.
100 persons on each side. Vodka shots at one shot per 5 minutes. Each shot is followed by an oral questioning. Last side with a person standing and able to answer multiplication table (1*1 through 12*12 inclusive) question wins.
A thoroughly Eastern-European resolution alternative.
EDIT: In the unlikely event of a perfect "draw" decision, sober them up, divide them into squads of 4 and have them play badminton matches -- highest out of 25 wins. Since neither is a badminton power, it should be fair (yes, the Russians medaled, but those chica's couldn't contribute well enough in the vodka portion to stay on the champions squad).
I see a flaw already - how are you going to make them drink only one shot of vodka in 5 minutes?
Gilrandir
09-18-2014, 17:03
“you persist in denying it.” Do tell me where and when I “deny” Russian’s Intervention? I even compared it to air strikes… So, try again.
Here you go:
“So, Russian tanks driven by Russian soldiers crossing the border doesn't count as an invasion?” No, that is an incursion as they went back. A little bit similar of air strikes, helping the ones you support…
Thus you deny INVASION not INTERVENTION (the latter was there since the Crimea annexation), which was the point I was making. And the invasion is not over - 4 battallions of Russains are still in eastern Ukraine, as Ukrainian intelligence says.
“Everybody saw the medals.” Nope, everybody saw a medal shown by a Ukrainian Central Government sympathiser pretending it was an official medal. As far as we know, he might have done it himself.
Let me explain how medal are given to soldiers...
Whatever picture you may paint it may be true for decent countries in decent times.
I told you why the medals in question couldn't be given the way you described and I won't repeat myself. So your piece of picturesque writing turned out useless.
“So the political situation in Ukraine (namely in Donbas) at the end of July had nothing to do with the accident?” Nope, it is because a civil war was raging (due to political unrest) ..
The key word is political, thus political situation in Ukraine was ultimately what caused the accident.
“If you haven't heard about the law passed”: Yeah, saw this, I just hope the Russian Extremists will not prevail and common sense will come back in both sides.
You hoped (or sometimes were even sure) that Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine and we see the result. I think your hope this time will be vain again.
About the link, can’t read the lips, of course, so I can see Putin saying his admiration for Goebbels in front of Jewish representatives? Right? And it is the proof of Putin being a Nazi?
If Tyagnybok said that Goebbels was a talented man who always got what he wanted, wouldn't it serve you as a proof of him being a nazi? You are the one who sets a great stock by what people say, wear or march with. Or do you apply double standards again: someone called a braintank after Goebbels so he is a nazi, another admires him, but he is not?
There's a difference between an accident and a premeditated, organized and violent perversion of the democratic process.
Tell it to the families of those who died in the crash. I'm sure they would be delighted to know that it was just an accident not worth any punishment since it violated no rules of democracy.
Sarmatian
09-18-2014, 17:32
Tell it to the families of those who died in the crash. I'm sure they would be delighted to know that it was just an accident not worth any punishment since it violated no rules of democracy.
Appealing to emotion now, are we?
Try harder.
“as Ukrainian intelligence says.” And they said a lot of things, mostly from Social net-work…
“Thus you deny INVASION not INTERVENTION” Err, yeah, that was my point. As Crimea is concerned, the Russian Troops were there, so it was annexing, and even there I said it was helped by some special forces, most probably. So, where is your argument?
“I told you why the medals in question couldn't be given the way you described and I won't repeat myself.” So you have no proofs, evidences or hints to whom, what, when and how, but you still pretend it exists. I have more proofs of the existence of Fairies and Unicorns, I saw pictures on my grand-daughters’ books.
“that Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine” Ohh, you are under the Russian boots? No. So I was right, and you are wrong, but it is as usual.
“If Tyagnybok said that Goebbels was a talented man who always got what he wanted” Nope. The fact that Goebbels was a master of propaganda is I think universally admitted. Some even go as far to say he is the inventor of modern communication. So try again.
“I'm sure they would be delighted to know that it was just an accident not worth any punishment since it violated no rules of democracy.” Ridiculous.
What was the punishment of the Ukrainian crew who shot down the Russian Plane?
Gilrandir
09-19-2014, 14:54
“Thus you deny INVASION not INTERVENTION” Err, yeah, that was my point. As Crimea is concerned, the Russian Troops were there, so it was annexing, and even there I said it was helped by some special forces, most probably. So, where is your argument?
“I was speaking of Russia as an invading state so Russian soldiers who constitute the bulk of the invading army from the invading state are invaders. Am I now clear?” But this Army exists only in your imagination.
“as Ukrainian intelligence says.” And they said a lot of things, mostly from Social net-work…
“that Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine” Ohh, you are under the Russian boots? No. So I was right, and you are wrong, but it is as usual.
You don't know anything for certain, you can base your judgement only on circumstancial evidence (as all of us do), yet you claim that you are right. You can forward the same statements on knowing who killed JFK and be sure you are right. Oh omniscient and infallible you, we all must bow down to you (and especially to your prediction skills).
Meanwhile, those who are not yet under your enchantment (or should I say bewitchment?) may see that Council of Europe is of the like mind with the Ukrainian intelligence:
http://hub.coe.int/en/web/coe-portal/press/newsroom?p_p_id=newsroom&_newsroom_articleId=2029197&_newsroom_groupId=10226&_newsroom_tabs=newsroom-topnews&pager.offset=0
They call to withdraw Russian troops from Ukraine so the conclusion is that there ARE some.
“Oh omniscient and infallible you, we all must bow down to you (and especially to your prediction skills).” :laugh4::laugh4: I speak about the fact about Putin’s intention about Ukraine. I was right and you are wrong. Not that Putin can’t change his mind, but until now, you are not facing a full scale invasion type Iraq/Afghanistan. Nothing about prediction’s skill, but a more or less clear analyse of economical/geo/strategical analyse than yours and apparently the Council of Europe.
“They call to withdraw Russian troops from Ukraine so the conclusion is that there ARE some.” First, I suggest you to check what is the Council of Europe, then we can discuss how they can get such information…
Gilrandir
09-20-2014, 14:40
I speak about the fact about Putin’s intention about Ukraine. I was right and you are wrong. Not that Putin can’t change his mind, but until now, you are not facing a full scale invasion type Iraq/Afghanistan. Nothing about prediction’s skill, but a more or less clear analyse of economical/geo/strategical analyse than yours and apparently the Council of Europe.
O-ho, so now you admit the invasion, but it's not too full-scale for you to really worry about? At first you predicited no invasion whatsoever, now it is the scale of it that lets you claim you are right.
I see that it is useless trying to have you pay attention to something that doesn't fit your picture of events. Like I said before, a person has an emotionally-motivated filter which "gets installed' at the first encounter with the news. When later developments are funneled through this filter, everything that doesn't fit its grid is sifted out. In your case it amounts to not trusting whatever the Ukrainian side says and claiming to adopt a non-biased point of view. But what do we have in effect? Ukraine says there were medals and you side with Russia who says there weren't, Ukraine says there are Russian weapons and mercenaries in Donbas, you agree with Russia who says there aren't, you (like Russia) is sure Ukraine is ruled by Nazi junta and "Russian minorities" and Russian-speakers are being oppressed in Ukraine, you together with Russia deny the presence of Russian regular army in Donbas in spite of the contrary claims and evidence offered by Ukraine, Council of Europe, NATO, the USA, and now Germany:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/germanys-merkel-urges-putin-to-withdraw-troops-from-ukraine-1410813621.
Your impartial and unbiased position on all the key points happens to follow the wake of Russian propaganda. So making you see what you can't because you don't want to is like telling a person wearing sunglasses to enjoy the play of light and shadow in Laurent Parcelier's pictures.
Gilrandir
09-20-2014, 15:14
Okay, okay.... So ww3 probably isn't going to break out over Ukraine! That's the good news. Bad news is, looks like Russia won. Hard to term the latest political concessions from Kiev as anything other than concessions. Most importantly, those concessions were won by (Russia's!) force of arms. The effects that the conflict will have on the region and maybe the world over the next several years may be more interesting than the conflict itself, if it is in fact over. And it may not be, as this would be a settlement that lacks closure.
:thinking2:
I think you misinterpret the consequences of the concessions offered in the adopted laws (On special status of some areas of Donetsk and Lugansk regions and On amnesty). There are no concessions because for Ukraine to introduce them the separatists must agree to them, which they won't. Feeling the more than palpable support from Russia separatists are bent on pushing the game further and further, they disregard the ceasefire and storm (to speak nothing of shelling) the aiport of Donetsk, Debaltseve, Shchastya and other positions the army holds to expand the territory of Lugandon (the derogatory name for the "People's republics", echoing the Ukrainian four-letter word signifying "condom"). Moreover, some groups of the separatists don't acknowledge any ceasefire and in fact do not obey orders from the leaders of Lugandon - for instance, the city of Stakhanov proclaimed Stakhanov cossack republic as an independent state.
The adopted laws are the laws of Ukraine which means that Ukraine must have some bodies that can see to it that the laws are enforced. How can these laws be enforced on the territories not controlled by Ukraine? Ukraine regularly issues laws and ordinances concerning Crimea, and they are void. Moreover, Yatsenyuk explicitly said that Ukraine would not restore the ruined infrastructure nor pay any pensions, salaries or other social payments in the areas it doesn't control. The same with prospective local elections in December. Will Central Electoral Board of Ukraine organize them in Lugandon? Will local electoral boards contain representatives of different parties (as stipulated by the electoral law), for example, Svoboda, Batkivshchina, or any other all-national party (except Communists, no doubt)? Will there be any international observers (except from Russia which is certain to claim that any elections in Lugandon are transparent and fair)? So if such elections happen Ukraine will not acknowledge their results. The same with the promised economic and language preferences - Lugandon doesn't need concessions where it has a full control, so agreeing to them would deprive its leaders of the unlimited powers they already enjoy. So the separatists will not relinquish their grasp on the area, nor will they suffer the control of the border with Russia by OSCE still less by Ukraine (as the Minsk agreements demand it), nor will they disband or evict "the illegal armed units".
The whole situation is likely to freeze over at the stage both sides are having now (if Ukrainians have enough strength to oppose the crawling offensive of the Russia-backed separatists) and get bogged in endless negotiations and lip service. Like it was with Abkhasia.
Why does everybody think I'm going to pay for a subscription to view the articles they link to these days?
Let's hope Putin installs the USSR again, then all the articles belong to everybody.
Gilrandir
09-20-2014, 16:19
Why does everybody think I'm going to pay for a subscription to view the articles they link to these days?
Let's hope Putin installs the USSR again, then all the articles belong to everybody.
If you mean the article I linked then I'm sorry you can't read the full of it (neither can I), but I think its not that important for the purpose I linked it since its message is clear from the first lines you can view. And I'm sure a German can find the corresponding statement by Merkel elsewhere (and give us a free link ~;)).
And if Putin installs the USSR then the articles aren't gonna be free for Germans - you are under his sanctions, remember? And even if he lets you read them their price will equal the gas prices (he will still need to sell it somewhere) unless Schroeder somehow placates him.
“O-ho, so now you admit the invasion” You should really learn to read: No invasion of Ukraine. Is it clear? You are not, or media didn’t report it, invaded. Intervention with special forces is not invasion. Or NATO invasions figures should be up-graded, i.e. no invasion of Libya, Syria, or Chad, Central Africa and others. Is it clear now?
“At first you predicted “ I don’t predict, I am not Paul Muad’bid Atreides. If your read Dune.
“Ukraine, Council of Europe, NATO, the USA, and now Germany” Still not one shadow of a proof mind you, but carry on to relay the Ukrainian Proof by Social Network. “
“except Communists, no doubt”: Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-20-2014, 21:58
“O-ho, so now you admit the invasion” You should really learn to read: No invasion of Ukraine. Is it clear? You are not, or media didn’t report it, invaded. Intervention with special forces is not invasion. Or NATO invasions figures should be up-graded, i.e. no invasion of Libya, Syria, or Chad, Central Africa and others. Is it clear now?
“At first you predicted “ I don’t predict, I am not Paul Muad’bid Atreides. If your read Dune.
“Ukraine, Council of Europe, NATO, the USA, and now Germany” Still not one shadow of a proof mind you, but carry on to relay the Ukrainian Proof by Social Network. “
“except Communists, no doubt”: Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...
Pffft.
Ukraine may not be super-awesome-democracy but get real man. The Russians invaded.
Hey BBC has a great timeline on the crisis, what was offered by Kiev the day before armed gunmen cropped up?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Increased autonomy.
Weird.
Sarmatian
09-21-2014, 03:16
Pffft.
Ukraine may not be super-awesome-democracy but get real man. The Russians invaded.
Hey BBC has a great timeline on the crisis, what was offered by Kiev the day before armed gunmen cropped up?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Increased autonomy.
Weird.
It was never officially offered. It was more of "yes, we'd willing to consider that option sometime in the future, if stars align properly at some point". During that rhetoric, Kiev was busy instigating riots in the east to replace current governors with those loyal to new central government.
Gilrandir
09-21-2014, 06:07
Intervention with special forces is not invasion. Or NATO invasions figures should be up-graded, i.e. no invasion of Libya, Syria, or Chad, Central Africa and others. Is it clear now?
What do you mean by special forces? I understand special forces as mobile platoons of GRU or other Spetznaz (like those that stormed Central Police Department of Slovyansk - I think you saw the video). They are elite and can't "get lost" as it happened with the Russian military (as Putin has it and you seem to believe him). Ukraine was attacked by 6 tactic battalion groups (numbering by different estimates from 6 to 10 thousand) which included both paratroopers and ordinary motorized infantry units together with tanks, APCs, Grads, Uragans, air defense systems and what not (except planes). Are these not regular (not special) armed forces?
“At first you predicted “ I don’t predict, I am not Paul Muad’bid Atreides. If your read Dune.
First of all, I haven't.
Second of all, Sarmatian was explicit enough in his demand: one can't involve fiction in this thread to exemplify something or compare it to the real life events. If you manage to obtain his permission, we'll have a fiction-related duel some day.
“except Communists, no doubt”: Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...
:no: Again Brenus tells a lie (which he no doubt drew from his reliable sources): it was the faction of the Communist party in the parliament that was disbanded, ostensibly since it didn't have the minimum number stipulated by the law (we all should abide by the law in any situation, especially concerning the parliament, as Sarmatian never tires to remind us).
The prohibition of the party is being on trial still.
It was never officially offered. It was more of "yes, we'd willing to consider that option sometime in the future, if stars align properly at some point".
Yet other restive regions were ready to believe Kyiv and wait and see. The east wasn't (or rather Russia wasn't and added oil into the fire) and which regions are better of now?
During that rhetoric, Kiev was busy instigating riots in the east to replace current governors with those loyal to new central government.
It is the first time I hear of Kyiv instigating riots in the east while we all know that it was caught on the hop and wasn't ready for such developments (which in fact led to the situation we are facing now). I'm sure you have reliable evidence to present.
Gilrandir
09-21-2014, 06:33
Okay, okay.... So ww3 probably isn't going to break out over Ukraine! That's the good news. Bad news is, looks like Russia won. Hard to term the latest political concessions from Kiev as anything other than concessions. Most importantly, those concessions were won by (Russia's!) force of arms.
The more I think of it, the more it seems to me that those laws were a smoke-screen (the word Brenus likes especially), a face-saving tactics for Putin to announce urbi et orbi (most of all it is urbi he is concerned with) that he has won and give him and opportunity to back out of the dead end he drove himself in.
First of all, both laws (as well as that AA ratification) were forwarded by the president, which means they were not a novelty for him. Yet he signed the ratified AA agreement on the spot and never did it (they are still unsigned) to the two laws in question. Without his signature no law can come into effect. Usually the president takes his time before signing any law ostensibly to study it thouroughly which was not neccessary in this case as he knew what was written in them.
Second of all, they were passed with alleged procedural violations (the screen in the Verkhovna Rada was not showing the MPs who had voted, which is an unusual practice). So it is not unlikely that the parliament may repeal the laws giving the procedural violations as an issue.
Third of all, some stipulations of the laws (like the introduction of "people's militia" or local prosecutors and judges being appointed locally) contradict other laws and (most importantly) the Constitution which is the ultimate law. So the Constitutional Court may cancel the laws at any time on the grounds they contradict the Constitution.
What do we have as a result? Ukraine is legally bound by nothing, can have a breathing space, it is ostensibly the one who is ready for concessions and if these concessions are not taken by the opposite side it is it that would be to blame. And Russia can now think of a nice way to edge out of sanctions and the present predicament with the minimum harm for its reputation.
http://www.foundationmaxvanderstoel.nl/nieuws/nieuws_item/t/ukraine_ruling_coalition_collapses_after_communist_party_is_banned
“Parliament Speaker Oleksander Turchynov declared yesterday that “[with ten deputies quitting], there are not enough MPs for the faction’s functioning.” He further added that “We have corrected a historical error by disbanding the faction. I hope there will be no more communist ideology in the Ukrainian society.”
But I am the liar.
“First of all, I haven't.
Second of all, Sarmatian was explicit enough in his demand: one can't involve fiction in this thread to exemplify something or compare it to the real life events. If you manage to obtain his permission, we'll have a fiction-related duel some day.” ? Try to make sense please. As involving fiction in thread, stop to talk about reliable Ukrainian Intelligence sources for a start.
“Ukraine was attacked by 6 tactic battalion groups (numbering by different estimates from 6 to 10 thousand) which included both paratroopers and ordinary motorized infantry units together with tanks, APCs, Grads, Uragans, air defense systems and what not (except planes). Are these not regular (not special) armed forces?” Sources, out of Social Media please (so excluding Ukrainian Intelligence Services).
“They are elite and can't "get lost"” Really? You have not a clue, again…
Gilrandir
09-21-2014, 12:05
http://www.foundationmaxvanderstoel.nl/nieuws/nieuws_item/t/ukraine_ruling_coalition_collapses_after_communist_party_is_banned
“Parliament Speaker Oleksander Turchynov declared yesterday that “[with ten deputies quitting], there are not enough MPs for the faction’s functioning.” He further added that “We have corrected a historical error by disbanding the faction. I hope there will be no more communist ideology in the Ukrainian society.”
But I am the liar.
You had said that the Communist party was illegal. Then you give a quotation that corroborates what I maintain - that the Communist faction was disbanded. Yet the party (not the parlaimentary faction) is still functioning. Turchinov hopes that it will not (future tense, mind you) due to the results of the trial which is still under way.
And you still claim that (read the first sentence).
Liar, liar.
“Ukraine was attacked by 6 tactic battalion groups (numbering by different estimates from 6 to 10 thousand) which included both paratroopers and ordinary motorized infantry units together with tanks, APCs, Grads, Uragans, air defense systems and what not (except planes). Are these not regular (not special) armed forces?” Sources, out of Social Media please (so excluding Ukrainian Intelligence Services).
You mean the sources with the same reliability that allow you to claim that those Russians in Ukraine were only special assignment forces? Name those sources (hope it's not USA Today this time again).
I had given multiple sources on other facts including those of Ukrainian ministry of foreign affairs, NATO, Council of Europe, German chancellor, newspapers (American, Ukrainian, European) and you didn't believe any. So I'm not gonna spend my weekend searching for the links you don't (and won't) believe apriopi. Lifenews and Russia Today would do you good. If not, take off your sunglasses and enjoy Laurent Parcelier's sun. Isn't it delightful?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-21-2014, 12:31
http://www.foundationmaxvanderstoel.nl/nieuws/nieuws_item/t/ukraine_ruling_coalition_collapses_after_communist_party_is_banned
“Parliament Speaker Oleksander Turchynov declared yesterday that “[with ten deputies quitting], there are not enough MPs for the faction’s functioning.” He further added that “We have corrected a historical error by disbanding the faction. I hope there will be no more communist ideology in the Ukrainian society.”
But I am the liar.
“First of all, I haven't.
Second of all, Sarmatian was explicit enough in his demand: one can't involve fiction in this thread to exemplify something or compare it to the real life events. If you manage to obtain his permission, we'll have a fiction-related duel some day.” ? Try to make sense please. As involving fiction in thread, stop to talk about reliable Ukrainian Intelligence sources for a start.
“Ukraine was attacked by 6 tactic battalion groups (numbering by different estimates from 6 to 10 thousand) which included both paratroopers and ordinary motorized infantry units together with tanks, APCs, Grads, Uragans, air defense systems and what not (except planes). Are these not regular (not special) armed forces?” Sources, out of Social Media please (so excluding Ukrainian Intelligence Services).
“They are elite and can't "get lost"” Really? You have not a clue, again…
Brenus, I get that you're a cynic, I get why, and you're not completely wrong about the Ukrainian government right now but when Russia says, "the ten paratroopers found 20km inside Ukraine were on holiday and/or lost." even you have to accent that Russia is invading Ukraine.
It's like that thing children do when they grab the little one's hand and use it to slap his own face whilst shouting "stop hitting yourself."
Seamus Fermanagh
09-21-2014, 13:40
Brenus, I get that you're a cynic, I get why, and you're not completely wrong about the Ukrainian government right now but when Russia says, "the ten paratroopers found 20km inside Ukraine were on holiday and/or lost." even you have to accent that Russia is invading Ukraine.
It's like that thing children do when they grab the little one's hand and use it to slap his own face whilst shouting "stop hitting yourself."
Now that we know that Alba isn't going anywhere, perhaps it is time for the UK to intervene by deploying the Mackamikaze Highlanders....
If you mean the article I linked then I'm sorry you can't read the full of it (neither can I), but I think its not that important for the purpose I linked it since its message is clear from the first lines you can view. And I'm sure a German can find the corresponding statement by Merkel elsewhere (and give us a free link ~;)).
And if Putin installs the USSR then the articles aren't gonna be free for Germans - you are under his sanctions, remember? And even if he lets you read them their price will equal the gas prices (he will still need to sell it somewhere) unless Schroeder somehow placates him.
Yes, but it's from Monday, I'd have to use search functions and have historically found most of them to be bad and unwieldy, so I try to avoid them, just reading what the editors feed me with below huge pictures and the accompanying sensationalist, half-lied headlines.
On that note, it seems that people have announced a peace demonstration in Moscow and the city authorities have allowed it to take place.
Apparently some Russian politicians and journalists published cases where the deaths of russian soldiers in Ukraine were covered up. Which comes right back to the part where I said that it would be hard to cover up so many dead soldiers. So: Told you so!
Oh and here is a link: http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise-putin-hilft-der-ukraine-mit-wasser-und-lebensmitteln_id_4147316.html
“Ukraine ruling coalition collapses after Communist Party is banned.” That is the title of the article. Not a faction, the COMMUNIST PARTY. So who’s the liar? Or, as I suspect, you don’t know to read in casual English but in Gildarian English.
“You mean the sources with the same reliability that allows you to claim that those Russians in Ukraine were only special assignment forces”: I never mentioned any articles because I don’t have shady sources like yours. I used my knowledge of Military and my Experience in Crisis. I draw my conclusions which are entirely mine. I know it is a concept alien to you, I use my own brain. I don’t paste and copy blindly, repeating what other print (you reference to the Council of Europe –by the way, I worked for them- being one more proof, if one was needed).
To be fair, I fall in my own trap, and what I reproach to you. I told from the start Putin had no plan, and just better than NATO, Europe/USA in protecting Russian’s Interests. So, yes, if one NATO tank put a caterpillar on Ukrainian’s soil he might consider it as a threat and decide to launch a full scale invasion. However, until now, we can’t speak of invasion of Ukraine.
“the ten paratroopers found 20km inside Ukraine”, and plus 3 tanks, that is an impressive invasion forces. 20 km is around 4 hours walk in a nice and easy pace. So, yes, a squad of paratroopers can walk the wrong way during 4 (or perhaps 3, for young trained soldiers) hours, lost in the dark and having lost their bearing. Happened before, will happen after. And the ones believing it is not possible never trained or co-operate with Para-troopers…
Gilrandir
09-21-2014, 15:37
Apparently some Russian politicians and journalists published cases where the deaths of russian soldiers in Ukraine were covered up. Which comes right back to the part where I said that it would be hard to cover up so many dead soldiers. So: Told you so!
I didn't so much deny that such cases (if numerous) will be hard to cover up, but I expressed doubts whether the Russian society will do something to change the situation. It was the same when thousands marched out in March (forgive my pun) in Moscow to protest against the Crimea annexation. However numerous the march might have been, it was a one-time affair which didn't have any follow-up and was successfully disregarded by Putin. I'm sure the same will happen this time, especially considering the slant Russian mass-media gave to the deaths (volunteers who spent their vacations in Ukraine unbeknown to either their families or their bosses).
“Ukraine ruling coalition collapses after Communist Party is banned.” That is the title of the article. Not a faction, the COMMUNIST PARTY. So who’s the liar? Or, as I suspect, you don’t know to read in casual English but in Gildarian English.
What's that underlined word? Use your brain to explain its meaning to such a brainless creature as you consider me to be.
But as Husar remarked, you should look behind the sensationalist title and again (though doing it twice a day may overtax you) use your brain. Coalition is the neccessary prerequisite for the Verkhovna Rada to form a government. At that time it consisted of Batkivshchina, Udar and Svoboda. The latter two left it to give Poroshenko a legal pretext to disband the parliament a month later. These events have nothing to do with the decision to disband the communist faction which was done (as me and then you have correctly mentioned) because it didn't have the stipulated number of MPs. These two events may have actually had chronological coincidence, but I don't remember if they did, since it doesn't matter. I repeat again: the party is still legal. The first sitting of the court on its banning happened at the end of July, then followed one in August but it is still under way and is likely to go on indefinitely. Realizing that it is useless I still post the link:
http://lifeinua.info/the-court-has-postponed-the-consideration-of-case-concerning-the-ban-of-communist-party-to-august-14/
“You mean the sources with the same reliability that allows you to claim that those Russians in Ukraine were only special assignment forces”: I never mentioned any articles because I don’t have shady sources like yours. I used my knowledge of Military and my Experience in Crisis. I draw my conclusions which are entirely mine. I know it is a concept alien to you, I use my own brain. I don’t paste and copy blindly, repeating what other print (you reference to the Council of Europe –by the way, I worked for them- being one more proof, if one was needed).
I know it is a vain hope (seeing that you resort to insults again), but I would dearly like you to play fair: any time I report something, you apriori don't admit that it might be the result of my analysis, conclusions and other mental activities, so you ask for a source. Doing that you apriori know that you wouldn't believe any I provide. When your are asked to do that you haughtily reply that you don't need any sources to draw your (no doubt incisive and always correct) conclusions. And I admit my mistake - no more paste and copy for you, unless it be something like that:
http://www.artorg.net/laurent-parcelier/ You may disregard the text but just enjoy the pictures (click on them to see the fullscreen). Well, I do, at least.
“the ten paratroopers found 20km inside Ukraine”, and plus 3 tanks, that is an impressive invasion forces. 20 km is around 4 hours walk in a nice and easy pace. So, yes, a squad of paratroopers can walk the wrong way during 4 (or perhaps 3, for young trained soldiers) hours, lost in the dark and having lost their bearing. Happened before, will happen after. And the ones believing it is not possible never trained or co-operate with Para-troopers…
Again: those that you admit are exactly those Russia admits. Do you seriously believe that there were no more? But again, those Parceliers are masterpieces.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-21-2014, 15:40
Yes, but it's from Monday, I'd have to use search functions and have historically found most of them to be bad and unwieldy, so I try to avoid them, just reading what the editors feed me with below huge pictures and the accompanying sensationalist, half-lied headlines.
On that note, it seems that people have announced a peace demonstration in Moscow and the city authorities have allowed it to take place.
Apparently some Russian politicians and journalists published cases where the deaths of russian soldiers in Ukraine were covered up. Which comes right back to the part where I said that it would be hard to cover up so many dead soldiers. So: Told you so!
Oh and here is a link: http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise-putin-hilft-der-ukraine-mit-wasser-und-lebensmitteln_id_4147316.html
You're two weeks behind everyone else - Russian journalists were chased away from military cemeteries some time ago.
But hey - at least when the evidence becomes overwhelming you concede the point.
You're two weeks behind everyone else - Russian journalists were chased away from military cemeteries some time ago.
But hey - at least when the evidence becomes overwhelming you concede the point.
It's not overwhelming evidence, it's that you go with every anti-russian rumor you can find to rile people up for your beloved WW3. :smug:
“With the decision to disband the communist faction which was done”: Ahhh, finally. It was done, whatever the pretext…
“I repeat again: the party is still legal.” All right then, it is not illegal. Banned. Not illegal but banned. Hmmm, BIG difference... By the way, can you tell which one?
“seeing that you resort to insults again” Because you using the term liar was what exactly? Don’t cry. You’ve got what you spread.
“those that you admit are exactly those Russia admits” No. These were captured, surrendering without fighting if I remember well (but I am sure you will promptly indicate if I didn’t). Barely the behaviour of elite troops on a war path, more than lost squad, but hey… As lost in the country, happened to me and what left of the platoon at the end of the 3rd week of Special Forces Training. We were in the fog, Pyrenean Mountain, one side Spain, one side France, went the wrong slope with full equipment. So, if the Customs Officers/Spanish Army would have seen us, we wouldn't have start to fight (as we hadn’t life ammo anyway) but surrender, as the Russian had, as they are not in war with Ukraine. Otherwise, if they are, Court Martial is just waiting for them…
“Do you seriously believe that there were no more?” Again, it is not what I believe or not. You are the believer, not me. I assume Russia sent military advisers, and are probably ready to give a helping hand to the Rebels, due to Russian Interest in keeping NATO out of Ukraine. I developed earlier how Russia can achieve this. So it looks logical that Russia put the means to achieve this political aim. As figures, I can’t know, and no one can at this stage.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
09-21-2014, 19:06
It's not overwhelming evidence, it's that you go with every anti-russian rumor you can find to rile people up for your beloved WW3. :smug:
I have exactly two useful skill sets, and the one centred on medieval manuscripts doesn't pay as well as I expected.
But seriously - I've just reported things here as they've been reported elsewhere - weight of evidence (given Crimea) points to Russia's direct involvement for some time.
Kadagar_AV
09-22-2014, 04:57
Isn't it quite obvious that Russia is more involved than they want to come off as?
I've been sure of it since the first week, have seen nothing that would change my view.
Seamus Fermanagh
09-22-2014, 15:48
Isn't it quite obvious that Russia is more involved than they want to come off as?
I've been sure of it since the first week, have seen nothing that would change my view.
Putin has been very careful not to mention anything about "lebensraum im Westen."
"Putin has been very careful not to mention anything about "lebensraum im Westen." Agree. Contrary to NATO openly going to East.
https://i.imgur.com/hPtc9YG.jpg
^
~:confused:
The symbolism is lost on me.
Kadagar_AV
09-22-2014, 22:05
Putin has been very careful not to mention anything about "lebensraum im Westen."
True, it's more of a Drang nach Süden... I would make a drumroll, but only Husar and Panzer would get it. So I just go with:
"Insightful and spot-on nazi reference".
Kadagar_AV
09-22-2014, 22:06
https://i.imgur.com/hPtc9YG.jpg
^
~:confused:
The symbolism is lost on me.
I think it's about the new Russian anti-homo laws...
Seamus Fermanagh
09-23-2014, 04:46
I think it's about the new Russian anti-homo laws...
Implying that the cat is acceptable?!!!!?
Kadagar_AV
09-23-2014, 08:24
Implying that the cat is acceptable?!!!!?
Nah, just implying that the mustaches are pure ball-ticklers...
a completely inoffensive name
09-23-2014, 09:30
Can't we just wait for Russia's rampant alcoholism to destroy the country from the inside out?
Seamus Fermanagh
09-23-2014, 13:44
Can't we just wait for Russia's rampant alcoholism to destroy the country from the inside out?
Hasn't done for them this past half-millennium...
Gilrandir
09-23-2014, 14:11
“With the decision to disband the communist faction which was done”: Ahhh, finally. It was done, whatever the pretext…
“I repeat again: the party is still legal.” All right then, it is not illegal. Banned. Not illegal but banned. Hmmm, BIG difference... By the way, can you tell which one?
It seems to me that you use your brain intermittently and the communist party issue appeared to have been processed in between its being switched on.
THE COMMUNIST PARTY STILL FUNCTIONS AT FULL SWING, EVEN IN THE PARLIAMENT. THE COMMUNIST MPS DON'T CONSTITUTE A SINGLE FACTION, BUT THEY STILL ARE ACTIVE AND FUNCTIONING DEPUTIES (although talking of communists, I would call them malfunctioning deputies). For example, communists voted for adopting the laws on Donbas and amnesty.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/parliament-votes-to-grant-self-rule-amnesty-to-donbas-separatists-364826.html
Or do you think that the party was banned everywhere in the country except for the parliament? Ah, I know, you wouldn't consider it a reliable source.
“seeing that you resort to insults again” Because you using the term liar was what exactly? Don’t cry. You’ve got what you spread.
You vehemently denied that smoke-screen user was an insult, thus liar is not either. Especially when you publish untruthful information (concerning communist ban). Until that post I never got so low as to assess my opponent's mental abilities.
“those that you admit are exactly those Russia admits” No. These were captured, surrendering without fighting if I remember well (but I am sure you will promptly indicate if I didn’t).
And you deny yourself being a prognosticator? Malbeth the Seer I would call you (if you read The Lord of the Rings).
One of the captured was severely wounded after shelling which caused the rest to surrender.
Barely the behaviour of elite troops on a war path, more than lost squad, but hey…
I never called them elite. I maintained that they were regular army not special assignment force as you say. I remind you: you were the one to say that Russia sent only Spetznaz (and advisers).
Isn't it quite obvious that Russia is more involved than they want to come off as?
I've been sure of it since the first week, have seen nothing that would change my view.
I've been trying to get others see it, but who would consider my arguments serious, it is just pro-Ukrainian propaganda.
Kagemusha
09-23-2014, 14:25
I dont think it is over. Wait for the winter to come.
As people are now counting who has so far won and who lost.
To sum it up. Ukraine has lost.
The West can tap themselves to back, because the Maidan government has gained legitimacy as the de jure government of Ukraine. Thus there is Pro West government installed in Ukraine.
Russia has secured Crimea and Black Sea Fleet to herself, also they have successfully created a cold crisis into Ukraine with self governance of Eastern areas, which can be reheated if necessary.
Ukraine has lost lives, land and homes burned to ground. For what gain? This is a perfect example how democratic process for decision making is best one available as of now.
Gilrandir
09-23-2014, 15:32
Ukraine has lost lives, land and homes burned to ground. For what gain?
Russia also lost lives and will lose more. It also has lost the credit (if it had any) with the West which will now think hard how to jump off the gas hook Russia is holding it with and will generally overhaul its military strategy. Putin's plans to secure the belt from Odesa to Donetsk came to naught.
Ukraine tried to fight off the invasion and wasn't good at it so far. But was there any other option? Do you suggest sitting and looking at Russia biting off one piece of land after another? Moreover, this invasion has finally showed all Ukrainians how brotherly Russia is. Ukraine's "division" is over and it is firmly set on its European way (with possible NATO aspirations). Yanukovych is no more and his adherents are not likely to get any electoral support as long as I can see it. Ukrainian nations has awoken and stopped being so passive and indifferent to what is going on around it.
And one more thing: the world has learned a new song (about Putin) - a shoo-in for Grammy.
Kagemusha
09-23-2014, 16:43
Russia also lost lives and will lose more.
Yes. Soldiers tend to die when politics order them around. My thoughts are with the families of Russian soldiers who died so Putin could feel like a strong man behind his desk. Similarly i feel for the Ukrainian soldiers who died, because Maidan government did not take the correct path through elections, which made the Russian intervention possible at the first place.
Can i ask why will Russia loose more lives? Should Ukraine invade Crimea and try to take it back?
It also has lost the credit (if it had any) with the West which will now think hard how to jump off the gas hook Russia is holding it with and will generally overhaul its military strategy.
Sadly world does not work like that. Politics and trade are about convenience. It is not as if Russia´s and West policy towards each other has been one of friendship at the first place. Their interest were less different before, compared to current situation.
The Russian conflict of interest with the West will likely only result into that Russia will look more in the direction of China and India.
Concerning the "gas hook". As long as Russian gas is cheaper then the competition. Europe in the West keeps buying it. This is how global capitalism work. It is not issue of ethics, but issue of money. The prizes of Russian raw materials are likely to become more affordable to SCO countries in the future. This will hurt Europe economically, while it has less effect to USA as they do not buy lot from Russia.
Putin's plans to secure the belt from Odesa to Donetsk came to naught.
Cant say about Putin´s plans as i dont have any insight in Kremlin plans.
Ukraine tried to fight off the invasion and wasn't good at it so far. But was there any other option? Do you suggest sitting and looking at Russia biting off one piece of land after another? Moreover, this invasion has finally showed all Ukrainians how brotherly Russia is. Ukraine's "division" is over and it is firmly set on its European way (with possible NATO aspirations). Yanukovych is no more and his adherents are not likely to get any electoral support as long as I can see it.
How about overthrowing Yanukovych via elections? Would have been bit harder for Russia to launch military actions, against an elected Government of Ukraine and if they had done that, would have resulted in quite different reaction from the rest of the World. In my opinion Maidan offered the opportunity for Putin to do what he did.
Ukrainian nations has awoken and stopped being so passive and indifferent to what is going on around it.
And one more thing: the world has learned a new song (about Putin) - a shoo-in for Grammy.
Ok.
Pannonian
09-23-2014, 22:17
How about overthrowing Yanukovych via elections? Would have been bit harder for Russia to launch military actions, against an elected Government of Ukraine and if they had done that, would have resulted in quite different reaction from the rest of the World. In my opinion Maidan offered the opportunity for Putin to do what he did.
I can never understand why, if the Maidanistas thought they represented the will of the people, they didn't wait a year or two for the next elections before throwing him out. The British capital voted Labour in the 2010 election but ended up with a Conservative government. I accept this as the result of a nation-wide election, and await the next election in 2015. If we end up again with a government I didn't vote for, I'll accept that too. I'm not the British people, I'm merely one of them.
“I remind you: you were the one to say that Russia sent only Spetznaz (and advisers).” They were lost, not sent. Just the number is a clue, but you don't want facts...
“Or do you think that the party was banned everywhere in the country except for the parliament?” So they are banned from the Parliament? Yes? So they are in fact ban from the Political frame, yes? (I want confirmation as your level of understanding (and explaining) facts was never high and doesn't improve). So, when you are banned, you can’t exercise an activity so it is illegal for you to do so (still following? I know it is hard for you). So, apart for you, ban and illegal is the same thing. But I understand now for your explanation (for once clear and concise) that for you lying is not that bad.
“You vehemently denied that smoke-screen user was an insult” Because it is not, to use smoke-screen is a tactic very useful in combat (or debate), reason why soldiers use smoke-grenades. As the use of "liar", I understand now you don’t think to be a liar is an insult…. :shrug:
“One of the captured was severely wounded after shelling which caused the rest to surrender.” And? Did they fought or not? Your army is shelling civilians, so to be under shelling is hardly a proof a fighting.
“Putin's plans to secure the belt from Odesa to Donetsk came to naught.” :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Noncommunist
09-24-2014, 00:31
How about overthrowing Yanukovych via elections? Would have been bit harder for Russia to launch military actions, against an elected Government of Ukraine and if they had done that, would have resulted in quite different reaction from the rest of the World. In my opinion Maidan offered the opportunity for Putin to do what he did.
Given that Russia still is fairly powerful and has nukes, I doubt the rest of the world would have done anything different if Yanukovich had departed from office in a different way.
Kagemusha
09-24-2014, 13:56
Given that Russia still is fairly powerful and has nukes, I doubt the rest of the world would have done anything different if Yanukovich had departed from office in a different way.
Im still of opinion that waging conventional war against nuclear powers is out of the question and should not be thought as only instrument in cases like this.Rather immediate economic sanctions against Russia and immediate aid to Ukraine would have been implemented by foreign powers more then likely.
Gilrandir
09-24-2014, 14:36
Similarly i feel for the Ukrainian soldiers who died, because Maidan government did not take the correct path through elections, which made the Russian intervention possible at the first place.
How about overthrowing Yanukovych via elections? Would have been bit harder for Russia to launch military actions, against an elected Government of Ukraine and if they had done that, would have resulted in quite different reaction from the rest of the World. In my opinion Maidan offered the opportunity for Putin to do what he did.
Russian intervention started long before any elections were even planned. The Crimea operation was kicked off on February 20 when Yanukovych was still president. "Maidan government" did not exist at that time.
Can i ask why will Russia loose more lives? Should Ukraine invade Crimea and try to take it back?
:laugh4: Ukraine can hardly hold its positions in Donbas, so Crimea is safely in Mother-Russia's embrace.
But Russia will lose more lives since Russian aggression is not over (even during the ceasefire). Yesterday I heard a report from Ukrainian soldiers at Debaltseve. The latter was announced (by some panicking jouranlists) to have been left by Ukrainians some days ago. Perhaps Russians swallowed it or just (as usual) got lost, but they were spotted driving in several APCs (heedless and open, in broad daylight, with the Russian flag displayed) towards the city. All of the APCs were destroyed (with most of the crew, no doubt).
And I'm sure Putin will not pull back (all of his) army, so they are in for more deaths. However, I hold Putin responsible for deaths on both sides.
Sadly world does not work like that. Politics and trade are about convenience. It is not as if Russia´s and West policy towards each other has been one of friendship at the first place. Their interest were less different before, compared to current situation.
Concerning the "gas hook". As long as Russian gas is cheaper then the competition. Europe in the West keeps buying it. This is how global capitalism work. It is not issue of ethics, but issue of money. The prizes of Russian raw materials are likely to become more affordable to SCO countries in the future. This will hurt Europe economically, while it has less effect to USA as they do not buy lot from Russia.
I know it all, until recently Ukrane was of the like mind being afraid to lose its Russian market. Yet it is lost for now, and through no initiative of ours. Russia is banning one item of Ukrainian export after another. Perhaps some day the West will understand (as we have now) that cheap gas may turn out dearly bought. It should as least have a backup plan for such contigencies.
“I remind you: you were the one to say that Russia sent only Spetznaz (and advisers).” They were lost, not sent. Just the number is a clue, but you don't want facts...
“One of the captured was severely wounded after shelling which caused the rest to surrender.” And? Did they fought or not? Your army is shelling civilians, so to be under shelling is hardly a proof a fighting.
They said they were following other APCs in theirs, so the number of the whole force was much greater. Ukrainians spotted them and the fight broke out. Other Russians legged it but those ten were captured. I don't know whether those ten actually fought, I can speak only of the whole detachment which they were a part of. After the initial impact it (the whole detachment) left the field except for those captured.
Yet you didn't specify what you mean by "special force". If you do, we'll see whether the Russian forces spotted in Ukraine qualify for that term.
“Or do you think that the party was banned everywhere in the country except for the parliament?” So they are banned from the Parliament? Yes? So they are in fact ban from the Political frame, yes?
I did it twice, but for you to understand something you need to be told it more than that. So now for the third and last time (I'll copy and paste, though you hate it so much):
THE COMMUNIST PARTY STILL FUNCTIONS AT FULL SWING, EVEN IN THE PARLIAMENT. THE COMMUNIST MPS DON'T CONSTITUTE A SINGLE FACTION, BUT THEY STILL ARE ACTIVE AND FUNCTIONING DEPUTIES.
I can never understand why, if the Maidanistas thought they represented the will of the people, they didn't wait a year or two for the next elections before throwing him out. The British capital voted Labour in the 2010 election but ended up with a Conservative government. I accept this as the result of a nation-wide election, and await the next election in 2015. If we end up again with a government I didn't vote for, I'll accept that too. I'm not the British people, I'm merely one of them.
We have had this out, but once again: did the Conservative government of 2010 violently disperse peaceful rallies? Did it change any law to allow it more powers than it had at the moment of elections? Did it pass laws to prohibit wearing masks and helmets in the street and cars to form groups numbering more than 6 vehicles? Ukrainians accepted the results of 2010 presidential and 2012 parlaimentary elections. It was when the power abuse by those elected became flagrant, the people marched out in protest.
Pannonian
09-24-2014, 16:10
We have had this out, but once again: did the Conservative government of 2010 violently disperse peaceful rallies? Did it change any law to allow it more powers than it had at the moment of elections? Did it pass laws to prohibit wearing masks and helmets in the street and cars to form groups numbering more than 6 vehicles? Ukrainians accepted the results of 2010 presidential and 2012 parlaimentary elections. It was when the power abuse by those elected became flagrant, the people marched out in protest.
Don't like it, vote them out in the next elections. I was extremely unhappy with the Scots seemingly wanting to split away, but if they'd voted for that, I'd have accepted it too, even though the referendum was agreed to by a Conservative government I didn't vote for. I voted, the Conservatives formed a government representative of the country as a whole, they made a decision as said government, they had until 2015 to convince people to vote them in again. Such is representative parliamentary democracy.
“THE COMMUNIST MPS DON'T CONSTITUTE A SINGLE FACTION, BUT THEY STILL ARE ACTIVE AND FUNCTIONING DEPUTIES” So, the Communist Party as such as been ban but the MP can be in the Parliament under another umbrella/label. So the Communist Party has been banned and made illegal. What I said was right.
And I find no media backing-up your story about the capture of the Russian Paratroopers.
“Yet you didn't specify what you mean by "special force". If you do, we'll see whether the Russian forces spotted in Ukraine qualify for that term.” I don’t have to. Special Forces are infiltration units, Intelligence Gathering Units, just go on your favourite engine research. And it doesn’t include units were soldiers surrender after a shelling. And the fact they were exchange this fast against Ukrainian Soldiers tend to prove me right on this.
Gilrandir
09-25-2014, 14:21
Don't like it, vote them out in the next elections. I was extremely unhappy with the Scots seemingly wanting to split away, but if they'd voted for that, I'd have accepted it too, even though the referendum was agreed to by a Conservative government I didn't vote for. I voted, the Conservatives formed a government representative of the country as a whole, they made a decision as said government, they had until 2015 to convince people to vote them in again. Such is representative parliamentary democracy.
I have to repeat what I said 40 odd pages back. The universal grid of democracy may not fit the conditions of every single state in the same way. You base your judgements on the assumption that both the authorities and the people who elect them abide by laws. In the country where the authorities start to abuse power the moment when they get it to such an extent that there is no hope to vote them out democracy (as the power of people) doesn't work indirectly (by voting). Ukrainians have been doing what you preach intermittently since 1991. When they coudn't bear the power abuse and frauds any more they resorted to direct democracy in 2004 and 2013.
“THE COMMUNIST MPS DON'T CONSTITUTE A SINGLE FACTION, BUT THEY STILL ARE ACTIVE AND FUNCTIONING DEPUTIES” So, the Communist Party as such as been ban but the MP can be in the Parliament under another umbrella/label. So the Communist Party has been banned and made illegal. What I said was right.
:furious3: Well, I never! Who could have thought that it takes so much mental effort for you to digest the simple information and nervous effort for me to get it home. Now read carefully and don't you skip any word of it.
According to the constitution, MPs in the Verkhovna Rada can form factions. This allows them to create the ruling coalition and offer their candidates into the government. The mandatory condition for the faction to be formed is a certain number of deputies in it (don't remember the number, something around 25). There may also be deputies who don't belong to any faction. They enjoy the same rights (including being elected into the government and joining coalition), but they themselves (i.e. independently of any faction) can't offer any persons into the said government .
In 2012 after the parliamentary elections Communists had around 30 seats, formed the faction and entered coalition together with the Party of Regions (still following me?). After the turmoils of this spring some Communist MPs fled the faction (perhaps even the party), yet they are still deputies outside any faction. So the Communist faction's number went below the stipulated number which made its dissolution legally possible.
Now comes the most important part (so pull yourself together and keep your eyes open!!!):
those "disfactioned" Communists are still MPs (with the same name - Communst party members) and they attend seatings of the parliament, continue to work in different committees of the parliament, vote for the laws they consider appropriate. Among the latter were the recent laws on the status of Donbas and amnesty.
While all this is going on, there is a trial the suitors in which aim to ban the Communist party in Ukraine, not its faction in the parliament. This trial is under way and is not to bring any verdict soon, so (now the most crushing news!!!) the Communist party will participate in the elections which are to take place on October 26.
And I find no media backing-up your story about the capture of the Russian Paratroopers.
You will not. I saw numerous interviews (in Ukrainain or Russian) of the soldiers who captured them, as well as those who escaped the Ilovaysk trap or were captured in the said trap and later were exchanged for some separatists. I could tell you some curious facts they reported as well as could provide other facts I heard communicating in person to a soldier who has recently come from the ATO zone (he's the brother of my daughter's classmate). But I don't expect you would believe me (or rather the soldiers who said it). So I leave you to brood on this information. Well, to tell the truth, I know you will not, dismissing it at once, but this is your choice.
“Yet you didn't specify what you mean by "special force". If you do, we'll see whether the Russian forces spotted in Ukraine qualify for that term.” I don’t have to. Special Forces are infiltration units, Intelligence Gathering Units, just go on your favourite engine research. And it doesn’t include units were soldiers surrender after a shelling. And the fact they were exchange this fast against Ukrainian Soldiers tend to prove me right on this.
That's what I was talking about - they are not special forces, but regulars of the Russian army. Following this premise, Russia has sent its regular army (not/not only Spetznaz as you claim).
“According to the constitution” a group can be banned. Yeah, I’ve got it. So the Communist Party became banned because the “Constitution” is tailored to make it banned. So, it became illegal for the Communist MP to be a group named Communist Party. It is against the Constitution so it is illegal. Right? So the Communist Party is illegal in the Parliament.
Due to you lack of understanding, I will explain with another example: Smoking is banned in public places in UK. So, if you smoke in a pub, you’ve got a fine, because it is illegal t smoke in a pub. Ban and illegal is the same thing, and you can twist an explanation as much as you want, the Communist party was banned, made Illegal but the Constitution, as you rightly said.
Now, what you said is not all the truth, as usual you are short of it: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ukrainian-government-moves-ban-communist-party.
Nothing about quota and MP leaving, but a clear political movement. Lies, did you say?
"Ukrainian parliament speaker Oleksandr Turchynov announced Wednesday that the Communist Party, which holds 23 seats in the Verkhovna Rada, would be dissolved on Thursday. The announcement followed Tuesday’s changes to the Verkhovna Rada’s rules, allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party."“Yesterday, a bill was signed that brings changes to the rules … Tomorrow morning [Thursday], it will be published in Golos Ukrainy [official newspaper of the Verkhovna Rada], meaning it will come into force, and I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation," Turchynov said while opening Wednesday’s parliamentary session. So, lies again, you would say. YOUR Parliament changed the Rules to ban the Communist Party. Welcome in Democracy.
"The Ukrainian Parliament, the Verkhovnaya Rada, paved the way for dissolving political factions present in parliament on Tuesday, by reforming the law on rules of procedure." And this was in the link I post the first time, and then you told I was a liar. Funny how things can turn, isn't it?
“Following this premise, Russia has sent its regular army (not/not only Spetznaz as you claim).” Or they were lost as they claim. You don’t exchange invaders, you give back lost soldiers, and it what Ukraine did.
Gilrandir
09-27-2014, 05:07
“According to the constitution” a group can be banned. Yeah, I’ve got it. So the Communist Party became banned because the “Constitution” is tailored to make it banned. So, it became illegal for the Communist MP to be a group named Communist Party. It is against the Constitution so it is illegal. Right? So the Communist Party is illegal in the Parliament.
Due to you lack of understanding, I will explain with another example: Smoking is banned in public places in UK. So, if you smoke in a pub, you’ve got a fine, because it is illegal t smoke in a pub. Ban and illegal is the same thing, and you can twist an explanation as much as you want, the Communist party was banned, made Illegal but the Constitution, as you rightly said.
Now, what you said is not all the truth, as usual you are short of it: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ukrainian-government-moves-ban-communist-party.
Nothing about quota and MP leaving, but a clear political movement. Lies, did you say?
"Ukrainian parliament speaker Oleksandr Turchynov announced Wednesday that the Communist Party, which holds 23 seats in the Verkhovna Rada, would be dissolved on Thursday. The announcement followed Tuesday’s changes to the Verkhovna Rada’s rules, allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party."“Yesterday, a bill was signed that brings changes to the rules … Tomorrow morning [Thursday], it will be published in Golos Ukrainy [official newspaper of the Verkhovna Rada], meaning it will come into force, and I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation," Turchynov said while opening Wednesday’s parliamentary session. So, lies again, you would say. YOUR Parliament changed the Rules to ban the Communist Party. Welcome in Democracy.
"The Ukrainian Parliament, the Verkhovnaya Rada, paved the way for dissolving political factions present in parliament on Tuesday, by reforming the law on rules of procedure." And this was in the link I post the first time, and then you told I was a liar. Funny how things can turn, isn't it?
As usual, you see the image of the world you created yourself, but it doesn't mean this is the real world. Whatever plans for future the Ukrainian parliament may have and whatever word play with "banned"or "illegal" you may indulge into, there is a stark truth you refuse to see: Communists in the Verkhovna Rada are still called Communists, they are still MPs, they still work, they take part in writing/passing laws and are getting ready for the oncoming elections:
http://un.ua/eng/article/532952.html
Funny thing, isn't it? A banned/illegal party takes part in the elections. It's gotta be an eye-opener for you.
“Following this premise, Russia has sent its regular army (not/not only Spetznaz as you claim).” Or they were lost as they claim. You don’t exchange invaders, you give back lost soldiers, and it what Ukraine did.
It is because officially Ukraine isn't at war with Russia and officially Russia isn't at war with Ukraine. Yet unofficially we see Russian troops in Ukraine, Russian weapons and ammo in Ukraine, Russian citizens ruling whole chunks of Ukrainian territory. Hybrid war they call it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/russias-new-tactics-of-war-shouldnt-fool-anyone/2014/08/27/0cb73b3a-2e21-11e4-9b98-848790384093_story.html
“Funny thing, isn't it? A banned/illegal party takes part in the elections. It's gotta be an eye-opener for you.” Not at all, the Ukrainian Government makeover is made about banning from Parliament a Communist Party, in order to stop any financial help due to represented Parties. It is the first part of the plan, as said by the Speaker. Clue in the text: “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party." I find the text quite clear. What part don't you understand?
The fact it didn’t work as planned just makes the Ukrainian Government incompetent, not democratic.
It is still allowed to smoke in the streets…
“It is because officially Ukraine isn't at war with Russia and officially Russia isn't at war with Ukraine.” And this is reason to give invading Soldiers? A country invades another but it is not a war? Or perhaps it is because it is not an invasion but a political problem that might be resolved politically/diplomatically…
And the Washington Post, as Samartian, is allowed to have its opinion.
Extract from the article you linked:
"To keep Ukraine from signing up with the European Union, he used tactics that focused “on the enemy’s weaknesses and avoid direct and overt confrontations"
Hmmm, I remember writing something like this... You were vehemently against: "Oh omniscient and infallible you, we all must bow down to you (and especially to your prediction skills" :2thumbsup:
Gilrandir
09-28-2014, 06:21
... banning ... Communist Party ... didn’t work ...
.. so the Party is still there. This is the essence. All the rest is word frolicking.
“It is because officially Ukraine isn't at war with Russia and officially Russia isn't at war with Ukraine.” And this is reason to give invading Soldiers? A country invades another but it is not a war?
One more eye-opener for you. Ukraine did not proclaim martial law nor total conscription, ostensibly it is still ATO. Russia did neither. That is why Ukraine and Russia can exchange their prisoners. Open proclamation of war incurs consequences which Ukraine tries to avoid: a country at war can receive no military aid from other countries nor loans from IMF and others. Yet this IS a war. Until recently Russia has been constantly shelling (from its territory) Ukrainian military positions and border posts to say nothing of open invasion which only you and Putin deny (a funny coincidence, isn't it?). According to different estimates (one of them is https://www.facebook.com/pages/%D0%93%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B7-200-%D0%B8%D0%B7-%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D0%B2-%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8E/763463900366139?sk=timeline&ref=page_internal) about 4 thousand Russian soldiers were killed in this "unwar". Or do you think they all were special forces casualties?
Or perhaps it is because it is not an invasion but a political problem that might be resolved politically/diplomatically…
It was and could be a political problem until Russia put its spoke in.
And the Washington Post, as Samartian, is allowed to have its opinion.
You seem to deny only me in having one's own opinion (no doubt in view of my limited mental capacity). All the rest enjoy full rights and liberties. Egalite, you say?
Extract from the article you linked:
"To keep Ukraine from signing up with the European Union, he used tactics that focused “on the enemy’s weaknesses and avoid direct and overt confrontations"
Hmmm, I remember writing something like this... You were vehemently against: "Oh omniscient and infallible you, we all must bow down to you (and especially to your prediction skills" :2thumbsup:
Good, at least you read what I link. But these are not my prediction skills but the Washington Post's. I gave the link not to indulge into lengthy explanations of the term "hybrid war". Yet I agree that it has been waged against Ukraine.
“so the Party is still there. This is the essence. All the rest is word frolicking.” Tsk tsk tsk. My dear, you told all the members of the Forum I was a liar when I linked a Newspaper Article saying that your Government was banning the Communist Party. Now, it appears that I was right, so you were wrong, but you are dismissing the fact as it doesn’t matter because it didn’t work as planned…
“Ukraine did not proclaim martial law nor total conscription”: :laugh4:, shelling cities and using air forces, tanks, heavy artillery is eye-opener enough…
“only you and Putin deny” err, only Putin I afraid. You should read what I wrote (again, comparing to Air-Strike, I could have said drones).
“Or do you think they all were Special Forces casualties?” Why? Special Forces don’t die? Hmm, I saw the pictures you are showing before, didn’t I? In another context and title...
“It was and could be a political problem until Russia put its spoke in.” Yeah, sure. It was, until the stupid Ukrainian Politic opened the door for Putin to annex Crimea then we know what did happen. But now, you have an even bigger political problem, especially with winter coming in.
“You seem to deny only me in having one's own opinion” When and where?
“Good, at least you read what I link” almost all the time, when I can read it I mean.
“Yet I agree that it has been waged against Ukraine.” Nobody denied it, not me. I just said it was not for invasion (for several reasons as cost to repair Ukraine, Control Ukraine and the fact that Putin doesn’t have an army big enough to do it). I still think that his aim is to keep Ukraine out of NATO and EU, and if he can’t do it politically he will do it in maintaining unrest and tensions.
Kagemusha
09-30-2014, 04:39
If over 4000 Russians have been killed in action since the conflict began, that's not comparable to air strikes at all. That's comparable to 8 years of war in Iraq, or 11 in Afghanistan, all in the space of a few months. That's high-intensity warfare, buddy.
In related news, I saw an interview with the prime minister (the one who looks like a cross between Lenin and a Hipster) where he said retaking Crimea was now part of the Ukrainian war goals. This one's not done simmering by a long shot, I don't think.
I am not denying the Russian involvement at the East, but your figures are way off. UN estimates the total casualties for all sides involved being around 2600 lives, while Ukraine claims Russian casualties at 2000, which is highly improbable in itself while your figure doubles what Ukraine is claiming.
“I am not denying the Russian involvement at the East” I never did either. Russian’s interests were at stake when Ukraine went the way it went, so Russia did what Russia though it was at her best interest. It is not a PUTIN goal, any Russian decent leader would have made the same analyse and acted. Perhaps differently, but the NATO/EU/USA push to East can only be read as a menace for Russia, especially after years of active politic from these powers at Russian borders of destabilisation and Orange Revolutions. You might say these were democratisation processes, but it is hardly convincing seeing what happened in these countries. From the Russia sight/side, it is a clear manoeuvre of encirclement from some who openly treat and consider you as enemy.
GenosseGeneral
10-01-2014, 12:56
Don't like it, vote them out in the next elections. I was extremely unhappy with the Scots seemingly wanting to split away, but if they'd voted for that, I'd have accepted it too, even though the referendum was agreed to by a Conservative government I didn't vote for. I voted, the Conservatives formed a government representative of the country as a whole, they made a decision as said government, they had until 2015 to convince people to vote them in again. Such is representative parliamentary democracy.
And this is precisely the difference between UA and the UK. Whereas the UK is an established democracy, where politicians will generally stick to the constitutional rules. In other words, you can be certain that there will new elections where you can express your political preference, whether it be Labour, UKIP or the Communist Party.
Now in the Ukrainian case, this was not an issue of policy (Yanukovich not signing the AA with the EU), but one of politics (the functioning of the whole political system), as this was precisely what people saw as endangered. The protests became large, after Berkut tried to violently disperse the protestors. One common slogan in those days was "Ukraine must not become a second Belarus". Ukrainian elections have always been notoriously fraudulent, with the massive use of so-called "administrative ressources" by the party in power. In practice, this means mostly putting pressure on government employees and students, as well as employees of private enterprises to "make the right choice on election day". Also the election results from prisons, hospitals etc. tend to uniformly support the party in power. This was also the case in the Rada elections in autumn 2012, during which I was present in the Eastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv and heard multiple accounts of such incidents.
If Yanukovich had been demonstrated his ability to suppress any protest, this would have likely convinced him that he could get away with anything in the next elections, including even more serious fraud. In 2004 it was only the Orange Revolution which prevented him from doing so.
From what I know, the "revolution of dignity" (as its supporters call it) or the "coup of the Kievan Junta" (as its opponents refer to it), was for many involved not only about removing one corrupt administration from office, but about removing a thoroughly corrupt political system and its representatives altogether, whether their names are Yanukovich, Tymoshenko or Yatsenyuk. I think this was a major reason why the nationalist radicals gained so much support from otherwise moderate people: their narrative of a "national revolution" appealed to everybody, who wished more than just some oligarchs switching seats.
Gilrandir
10-01-2014, 16:12
“so the Party is still there. This is the essence. All the rest is word frolicking.” Tsk tsk tsk. My dear, you told all the members of the Forum I was a liar when I linked a Newspaper Article saying that your Government was banning the Communist Party. Now, it appears that I was right, so you were wrong, but you are dismissing the fact as it doesn’t matter because it didn’t work as planned…
I called you a liar because you told "all the members of the Forum" (as usual, you exaggerate, it is only the visitors of the thread who know of your debacle) that Communist party WAS banned. And that was (and is) not true (consequently a lie). Whatever plans anyone might have, they are not fait accompli until they are fulfilled. Ukrainian government is planning to join EU. According to you, we may now say that Ukraine is the member of EU. Right?
“It was and could be a political problem until Russia put its spoke in.” Yeah, sure. It was, until the stupid Ukrainian Politic opened the door for Putin to annex Crimea then we know what did happen. But now, you have an even bigger political problem, especially with winter coming in.
So, the victim is guilty when he is attacked? Excellent logics - the raped woman is guilty of provoking the rapist into the crime.
“You seem to deny only me in having one's own opinion” When and where?
You denied me having (or using) my brain. Consequently, the person who doesn't use his brain can't have any opinion of his own. Elementary deduction, as Sherlock is (wrongly) purported to have said.
Russian’s interests were at stake when Ukraine went the way it went, so Russia did what Russia though it was at her best interest. It is not a PUTIN goal, any Russian decent leader would have made the same analyse and acted.
Yeltsin was of a different opinion and never interfered (at least so flagrantly) into Ukraine's affairs. Or perhaps he was not a decent political leader, in your view. Grab some land and make two closely-related peoples enemies and Brenus will proclaim you a decent leader.
I am not denying the Russian involvement at the East, but your figures are way off. UN estimates the total casualties for all sides involved being around 2600 lives, while Ukraine claims Russian casualties at 2000, which is highly improbable in itself while your figure doubles what Ukraine is claiming.
I heard several estimates (for example:http://infoline.ua/Spectema/ATO/Tochnoe-kolichestvo-pogibshih-ukrainskih-voennosluzhaschih-v-zone-ATO-ne-izvestno---SNBO_15046.html) and I must say that many sources (even Ukrainian ones) accuse the Ukrainian officials of downplaying the casualties. So I would opt on 5-6000 taken together (including armed people on both sides and civilians).
“I called you a liar because you told "all the members of the Forum" (as usual, you exaggerate, it is only the visitors of the thread who know of your debacle) that Communist party WAS banned.” Read again YOUR government statement “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party.” Not banning, dissolving, as explicitly said in “I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation”.
My exact first words were “Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...”(3602).
Then YOU used the word “ban” as opposed to illegal: “it was the faction of the Communist party in the parliament that was disbanded, ostensibly since it didn't have the minimum number stipulated by the law” (3065). Omitting to precise that the Government just pass a decree as mentioned as shown in “Yesterday, a bill was signed that brings changes to the rules … Tomorrow morning [Thursday], it will be published in Golos Ukrainy [official newspaper of the Verkhovna Rada], meaning it will come into force, and I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation” So, you lied. You are the one manipulating the truth, to change the reality of facts. You are not even able to quote and check the writing done few pages before.
Liar you are, naughty boy…
“You denied me having (or using) my brain[” a bit of difference here, but I don’t deny you to have brain and to have an opinion. I just have to underline how you use it to draw wrong conclusions and analyse. Your excesses discouraged even the hardest of hardliner supporters of the actual Ukrainian Government actions.
“So, the victim is guilty when he is attacked? Excellent logics - the raped woman is guilty of provoking the rapist into the crime.” No, but a bully can’t complain if he is a bruised by the big brother of the small guy wearing glasses he punched.
Gilrandir
10-02-2014, 14:33
“I called you a liar because you told "all the members of the Forum" (as usual, you exaggerate, it is only the visitors of the thread who know of your debacle) that Communist party WAS banned.” Read again YOUR government statement “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party.” Not banning, dissolving, as explicitly said in “I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation”.
My exact first words were “Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...”(3602).
Then YOU used the word “ban” as opposed to illegal: “it was the faction of the Communist party in the parliament that was disbanded, ostensibly since it didn't have the minimum number stipulated by the law” (3065). Omitting to precise that the Government just pass a decree as mentioned as shown in “Yesterday, a bill was signed that brings changes to the rules … Tomorrow morning [Thursday], it will be published in Golos Ukrainy [official newspaper of the Verkhovna Rada], meaning it will come into force, and I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation” So, you lied. You are the one manipulating the truth, to change the reality of facts. You are not even able to quote and check the writing done few pages before.
Liar you are, naughty boy…
Again you are missing the whole point and quotations you cite are wrong. THE FACTION was dissolved and Turchinov announced of THE FACTION'S cessation, its members (aka Communists) are still alive and kicking (aka acting) deputies. Don't you see the difference between a faction in the parliament (numbering a couple of dozen deputies) and the whole party outside the parliament (which is still functioning)? And you disregard THE MOST IMPORTANT ARGUMENT I referred to: THE COMMUNUST PARTY IS TAKING PART IN OCTOBER 26 ELECTIONS. Is it possible for banned/illegal/dissolved/eliminated/evaporated... party? Instead you carry on with your story of a banned party. Perhaps in Ukraine that lives in your imagination it is banned, but this image doesn't bear on the real world.
Your excesses discouraged even the hardest of hardliner supporters of the actual Ukrainian Government actions.
You mean MY PERSONAL excesses? Well, I feel exalted: according to you it takes one man's actions (have no idea what actions of mine which you qualify as excesses can be known to the frequenters of the forum; perhaps you mean words of mine?), and no official nor civil servant, to repel supporters (you mean at his forum? in Ukraine or in the world?) of the government of a country. Are you sure it's not your most decent Putin you are talking about?
“So, the victim is guilty when he is attacked? Excellent logics - the raped woman is guilty of provoking the rapist into the crime.” No, but a bully can’t complain if he is a bruised by the big brother of the small guy wearing glasses he punched.
So who was that mysterious nerd Ukraine punched? "Russian minorities"? How selective was the punch - those in Donbas (and not all of them, like Mariupol inhabitants) felt hurt and went to comlpain to the big brother and those in Zaporizhya or Kherson sided with the bully. Or were Ukrainian nazis aiming at Russian minorities of central Donetsk region and southern Luhansk region? Your school life perception of the nature of the conflict is warped at the same angle Russia's is.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-02-2014, 16:50
“I called you a liar because you told "all the members of the Forum" (as usual, you exaggerate, it is only the visitors of the thread who know of your debacle) that Communist party WAS banned.” Read again YOUR government statement “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party.” Not banning, dissolving, as explicitly said in “I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation”.
My exact first words were “Of course, the vibrant Ukrainian Democracy made Communist Party illegal… Remind me someone...”(3602).
Then YOU used the word “ban” as opposed to illegal: “it was the faction of the Communist party in the parliament that was disbanded, ostensibly since it didn't have the minimum number stipulated by the law” (3065). Omitting to precise that the Government just pass a decree as mentioned as shown in “Yesterday, a bill was signed that brings changes to the rules … Tomorrow morning [Thursday], it will be published in Golos Ukrainy [official newspaper of the Verkhovna Rada], meaning it will come into force, and I will fulfill a historic mission and announce the Communist Party’s cessation” So, you lied. You are the one manipulating the truth, to change the reality of facts. You are not even able to quote and check the writing done few pages before.
Liar you are, naughty boy…
“You denied me having (or using) my brain[” a bit of difference here, but I don’t deny you to have brain and to have an opinion. I just have to underline how you use it to draw wrong conclusions and analyse. Your excesses discouraged even the hardest of hardliner supporters of the actual Ukrainian Government actions.
“So, the victim is guilty when he is attacked? Excellent logics - the raped woman is guilty of provoking the rapist into the crime.” No, but a bully can’t complain if he is a bruised by the big brother of the small guy wearing glasses he punched.
You missed the bit where the Communists are accused of treason (supporting the annexation of Crimea and the Eastern rebels).
Those should be checkable facts - but it appears that the part has not been found guilty of treason and therefore will not actually be banned.
“Turchinov announced of THE FACTION'S cessation” Read again: “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party” Not Faction, Communist Party. Again: “Communist Party’s cessation”
“And you disregard THE MOST IMPORTANT ARGUMENT I referred to: THE COMMUNUST PARTY IS TAKING PART IN OCTOBER 26 ELECTIONS.” Nope, I disregard nothing. It is just your Government is incompetent.
“Those should be checkable facts - but it appears that the part has not been found guilty of treason and therefore will not actually be banned.” I missed nothing. And the will to make the Communist Party illegal was in the Government speeches and intentions. I just copy and paste the Ukrainian Statements from official, nothing more.
The change in the Constitution to allow this forfeiture had nothing to do with treason, but all to do with political manoeuvers. I can’t even imagine if Putin would have done this in Russia…
“Your school life perception of the nature of the conflict is warped at the same angle Russia's is.” Yeah yeah yeah, carry on the good old methods.
Yours in full accordance with Stalin principles.
Seamus Fermanagh
10-03-2014, 13:25
Stalin had little in the way of principles to slow him down, and even less in the way of scruples.
Moreover, if even Stalin found something a little too vile, he had Beria.
GenosseGeneral
10-03-2014, 15:36
Imho this thread would benefit a lot if certain members stop fighting their private feuds here and instead recommence sharing either analysis and/or new information on what is actually happening.
After the relative ceasefire of the last weeks and the exchange of prisoners, there seem to be new fights over the Donetsk airport. Both sides claim to hold it under their control, but in fact it looks as if nobody has gained the upper hand there yet.
Russian Lifenews showing the fight from the separatists' point of view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPoR3q0VxXg
And here is the Ukrainian side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=srkvpEnKCfM
Not exactly an fulfilment of the Minsk protocols from 5th and 19th September.
The one of the 5th:
http://slavyangrad.org/2014/09/07/protocol-of-the-tripartite-contact-group-minsk-september-5-2014/
The more detailed protocol on the withdrawal of heavy weapons:
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/english-language-translation-of-the-sept-5-cease-fire-memorandum-in-minsk-365460.html
Gilrandir
10-03-2014, 15:40
Stalin had little in the way of principles to slow him down, and even less in the way of scruples.
Replace Stalin with Putin and you've got a perfect picture of modern Russia's foreign policy.
“Turchinov announced of THE FACTION'S cessation” Read again: “allowing the speaker of the house to dissolve the Communist party” Not Faction, Communist Party. Again: “Communist Party’s cessation”
I read it as many times as you like it, but (unfortunately for you) reading a lie (or incorrect information, if you prefer) a hundred times doesn't turn it into truth. And the truth is: Communist party still functions.
“And you disregard THE MOST IMPORTANT ARGUMENT I referred to: THE COMMUNUST PARTY IS TAKING PART IN OCTOBER 26 ELECTIONS.” Nope, I disregard nothing. It is just your Government is incompetent.
A perfect example of a biased approach to whatever the Ukrainian government does:
Brenus hears: Communist party is banned. Brenus says: Ukrainian government are nazis who violate all rules of democracy.
Brenus hears: Communist party is not banned, it takes part in the elections. Brenus says: Ukrainian government is incompetent.
Whatever happens to the Communists, Ukrainian government is evil.
“Those should be checkable facts - but it appears that the part has not been found guilty of treason and therefore will not actually be banned.” I missed nothing. And the will to make the Communist Party illegal was in the Government speeches and intentions. I just copy and paste the Ukrainian Statements from official, nothing more.
You ARE missing everything: look at the bold in your post. Plans, speeches, intentions and other might-have-beens are not facts until they are turned into actions. Perhaps some day they will be, but until they are your claims of Communist party being banned are lies (incorrect information based on misinterpratation and abscence of logics, if you prefer).
I can’t even imagine if Putin would have done this in Russia…
You don't believe any negative information about Putin, so you certainly can't imagine His Decency doing something unseemly, oh, no, my precious. But Putin does similar things to private business. Like it was with Khodorkovsky's Yukos a while back and only recently with another guy:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/17/oligarch-yevtushenkov-arrest-deepens-fears-russian-economy
Yeah yeah yeah, carry on the good old methods.
Yours in full accordance with Stalin principles.
Now YOU equate communists and nazis: at first you almost called me a nazi, now you directly call me a communist. :no: Come on, a little consistency. It failed you when your "big brother" metaphor didn't work: a picture of a big brother (Russia) impounding the bully's (Ukraine's) garage (Crimea) because the bully threatened a little bespectacled milksop ("Russian minorities") does not reflect credit upon the big brother.
Gilrandir
10-03-2014, 15:56
Imho this thread would benefit a lot if certain members stop fighting their private feuds here and instead recommence sharing either analysis and/or new information on what is actually happening.
This is a medieval-related forum, so it's gotta have some feuds smouldering deep underneath. At least this is what we know of Middle Ages.
After the relative ceasefire of the last weeks and the exchange of prisoners, there seem to be new fights over the Donetsk airport.
The fights are not new. They have been going on since June, or perhaps earlier. The ceasefire didn't stop them. There are some strategic points around which the fights never stopped as the separatists want to have them under their control, ceasefire or no. These are Debaltseve, Donetsk airport and Shchstya (north of Luhansk).
Both sides claim to hold it under their control, but in fact it looks as if nobody has gained the upper hand there yet.
Russian Lifenews showing the fight from the separatists' point of view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPoR3q0VxXg
And here is the Ukrainian side:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=srkvpEnKCfM
Even Lifenews admits that the main building of the airport is still held by the Ukrainian army, otherwise why separatists would continue storming it (as it is shown in the video)?
“reading a lie” So your media are lying, or the speaker of the house is lying? Which one? Pick your choice…
“Brenus hears: Communist party is banned.” I read what you wrote… Did you lie when you said it was not illegal but banned? As I mentioned before these are YOUR words. I give back to Cesar...
“Brenus hears: Communist party is not banned, it takes part in the elections. Brenus says: Ukrainian government is incompetent.” Well, that is a conclusion of a failed attempt. So what is your point? YOU told me that it was a ban, then you are telling that what I heard was not true. I am a little bit at lost here...:shrug:
“but until they are your claims of Communist party being banned” Err, these are YOUR claim. Mine was Ukrainian Government moving the make Communist Party illegal, and doing it in changing rules. And, as you rightly point out, failed.
“You don't believe any negative information about Putin” One day, when you will grow-up, perhaps, you will emerge of your bi-polar world. I am an optimistic, even if sometimes I can have doubts.
“Now YOU equate communists and nazis: at first you almost called me a nazi, now you directly call me a communist.” You should really learn to read. To compare you with Stalin is not to say you are Communist, first of all, it just highlighting a tactic use under Stalin. Then, for historical and factual reasons, I will certainly not equate Nazism and Communism.
Kralizec
10-04-2014, 00:27
.. so the Party is still there. This is the essence. All the rest is word frolicking.
I mostly agree with the Ukrainian point of view (i.e. yours), but this is really not a strong point.
Under Mubarak in Egypt, the muslim brotherhood was banned. It was a public secret that many of the politicians in the 'parliament' were MB members - yet the organization itself was banned, not recognised in any way, and it's adherents had to be discrete about the whole thing in order to avoid prosecution.
From what I understand the communist party in question was, in fact, a bunch of Soviet nostalgists who support Russia most of the time, regardless of circumstances. Which is apparently a psychological reflex for those people.
Anyway, banning a party outright is not something to be done lightheartedly. I can understand (and sympathize with) the reasons behind it. But if there actually were any seditious activities I would have expected the politicians of that party to be prosecuted, and it doesn't seem like that's the case.
GenosseGeneral
10-04-2014, 11:17
Even Lifenews admits that the main building of the airport is still held by the Ukrainian army, otherwise why separatists would continue storming it (as it is shown in the video)?
Yes, you are right. Those were just rumours and I misread a headline. Actually their 'minister of defence', Moroszov, just claimed to hold a part of that airport.
Yes, the airport has been under attack multiple times over the last month, but according to the press-center of the ATO, this is a new wave of attacks including mortars, tanks, artillery and Grad launchers.
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3427430-za-sutky-separatysty-tryzhdy-shturmovaly-aeroport-donetska-shtab-ato
Apart from that, Ukrainian positions are occasionally under artillery fire also elsewhere, but not as intense.
This airport seems to be really important to the separatists and from what I know, it is also the last Ukrainian foothold in Donetsk. It seems that the separatists plan to push Kiev out and the afterwards consolidate their power in the status quo. However, they risk the ceasefire in doing so, although I doubt that a new escalation would be in Kyiv's interest.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
10-04-2014, 21:12
Yes, you are right. Those were just rumours and I misread a headline. Actually their 'minister of defence', Moroszov, just claimed to hold a part of that airport.
Yes, the airport has been under attack multiple times over the last month, but according to the press-center of the ATO, this is a new wave of attacks including mortars, tanks, artillery and Grad launchers.
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3427430-za-sutky-separatysty-tryzhdy-shturmovaly-aeroport-donetska-shtab-ato
Apart from that, Ukrainian positions are occasionally under artillery fire also elsewhere, but not as intense.
This airport seems to be really important to the separatists and from what I know, it is also the last Ukrainian foothold in Donetsk. It seems that the separatists plan to push Kiev out and the afterwards consolidate their power in the status quo. However, they risk the ceasefire in doing so, although I doubt that a new escalation would be in Kyiv's interest.
When one side has launched an offensive against a strategic target you can declare the ceasefire over - the lack of general resumption of hostilities is probably due to lack of ammo as much as anything.
Fact is, Kiev only agreed to a ceasefire to consolidate their defences wherre the rebels were winning and the rebels only paid it lip service, and used it to resupply.
Gilrandir
10-05-2014, 07:03
“reading a lie” So your media are lying, or the speaker of the house is lying? Which one? Pick your choice…
It is clearly the case of sensationalist approach on the part of the media you quoted (and I have said it more than once). Or, perhaps, since these were Ukrainian media (as you claim), their command of English leaves much to be desired. Turchinov said that dissolving the Communist faction was the first step on the road to banning the whole party. The media you quoted took the story further announcing that the whole party was banned.
This is what happened and this is what I was trying to show focusing your attention on the fact that banning the Communist party is still a wishful thinking to many in Ukraine.
I mostly agree with the Ukrainian point of view (i.e. yours), but this is really not a strong point.
Under Mubarak in Egypt, the muslim brotherhood was banned. It was a public secret that many of the politicians in the 'parliament' were MB members - yet the organization itself was banned, not recognised in any way, and it's adherents had to be discrete about the whole thing in order to avoid prosecution.
From what I understand the communist party in question was, in fact, a bunch of Soviet nostalgists who support Russia most of the time, regardless of circumstances. Which is apparently a psychological reflex for those people.
Anyway, banning a party outright is not something to be done lightheartedly. I can understand (and sympathize with) the reasons behind it. But if there actually were any seditious activities I would have expected the politicians of that party to be prosecuted, and it doesn't seem like that's the case.
Those who follow my bickering with Brenus may have had an impression that I support what is being done to ban the Communist party. This is a wrong impression. I also think that we should get personal in charges of separatism no matter what party these persons belong to.
I agree to your analysis of the mindset of the people who vote for Communists.
What I would like to add is my aversion to the hypocrisy of the party that ostensibly protects the interests of the working class and the poor and calls to nationalize the property of oligarchs while its leaders have mansions in prestigious areas outside Kyiv, wear Brioni suits and drive fancy cars. Still, it doesn't mean I want to see the party banned. Rather I would like to see its leaders "hung by private parts", as Sarmatian puts it.
Yes, you are right. Those were just rumours and I misread a headline. Actually their 'minister of defence', Moroszov, just claimed to hold a part of that airport.
Yes, the airport has been under attack multiple times over the last month, but according to the press-center of the ATO, this is a new wave of attacks including mortars, tanks, artillery and Grad launchers.
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3427430-za-sutky-separatysty-tryzhdy-shturmovaly-aeroport-donetska-shtab-ato
Apart from that, Ukrainian positions are occasionally under artillery fire also elsewhere, but not as intense.
The latest news on the airport I heard is that the buildings captured by the separatists (like the one in the video) are taken back by the Ukrainian army.
This airport seems to be really important to the separatists and from what I know, it is also the last Ukrainian foothold in Donetsk. It seems that the separatists plan to push Kiev out and the afterwards consolidate their power in the status quo.
As is the story with all big cities, Donetsk airport is actually some distance from the city, so it IS a foothold, but in fact it is outside the city itself.
The importance of the airport lies in the fact that its possessors would be able to use aviation. The nearest airports enabling to do that are in Izyum (Kharkiv region), Kramatorsk (perhaps you remember how hard the separatists tried to take it in spring and in summer, but now it is under control of the army) and Luhansk (its runways were all blown up by the retreating army so they can't be used). Donetsk airport runway facilities are more or less undamaged as the separatists try to avoid it during their shelling and Ukrainians are too firmly entrenched to think of doing it so far. Ukrainian military authorities think that if the separatists hold the airport Ukrainian supermarkets will suddenly offer them a wide range of fighting planes to be used at their discretion which is not possible yet due to the absence of the airfield to land them.
When one side has launched an offensive against a strategic target you can declare the ceasefire over - the lack of general resumption of hostilities is probably due to lack of ammo as much as anything.
Fact is, Kiev only agreed to a ceasefire to consolidate their defences wherre the rebels were winning and the rebels only paid it lip service, and used it to resupply.
Ceasefire was a stillborn baby the moment it was declared.
First of all, even DPR and LPR admit that there are some gangs which obey no one so the self-styled republics are not answerable for what they do.
Second of all, as Biesmarck remarked, all agreements with Russia are not worth the paper they are written on. The proof of it is the constant attempts to storm the airport which can't be done (judging from the weapons being used) by roaming bands of gangsters bent on marauding.
Gilrandir
10-06-2014, 12:36
Donetsk celebrated 6-month anniversary of DPR. Check out the lower video. Perhaps the performance is meant to show the nazi essence of modern Ukraine (evidently represented by two girls wearing skirts of Ukrainian flag colors).
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3427824-na-ploschady-lenyna-v-donetske-otmetyly-yubylei-dnr
Only I don't get why someone is waving the flag of Novorossia on the same stage with marching nazis.
Gilrandir
10-11-2014, 14:28
It seems that French nazis don't see eye to eye with the current Ukrainian government (branded by many as a nazi one) and admire the nazi-fighting Russia:
http://famagusta-gazette.com/eu-source-of-crisis-in-ukraine-says-mep-marine-le-pen-p25300-69.htm
Now who's nazi and who's not?
"Now who's nazi and who's not?" Le Pen is a Nazi, So your point is? France have Nazi, but Ukraine has them in Government. YOU are the blind nationalist, not me. So again, what is your point? Smoke screen and attempted diversion a side of course...
"Only I don't get why someone is waving the flag of Novorossia on the same stage with marching nazis." I don't get it either.Perhaps it is to show Ukrainian (in blue and yellow) welcoming Nazi (being Nazi themselves) and kick out by valiant rebels, but again, I am not a critic for stages. But not sure, to be fair. Mystery, mystery...
Gilrandir
10-12-2014, 07:30
"Now who's nazi and who's not?" Le Pen is a Nazi, So your point is? France have Nazi, but Ukraine has them in Government. YOU are the blind nationalist, not me. So again, what is your point? Smoke screen and attempted diversion a side of course...
There no need to repeat the question twice, but I expected from such a clairvoyant anti-nationalist you want to appear more insight and logics (aka brain-using). My point is: can a nazi be dissatisfied with what other nazis are doing? Hardly. Le Pen expressed her view of what happened in Ukraine calling it a jewish plot by Nuland the Jew. Thus a nazi (Le Pen) is far from happy at the fact that Nazis (as you brand them) came to power in Ukraine. Isn't such a display of disgust at ideological brethren advent into power strange? Perhaps she doesn't think them nazis (or nazis enough)?
On the other hand, she expresses her admiration with Putin. Doesn't it make them kindred spirits (at least, in Le Pen's view)?
The conclusion: if Le Pen is all-recognized nazi, those she hates are not nazis and those she worships are nazis themselves. Thus, Ukrainian government are not nazis while Putin and his posse are. Am I making myself clear enough now?
"Only I don't get why someone is waving the flag of Novorossia on the same stage with marching nazis." I don't get it either.Perhaps it is to show Ukrainian (in blue and yellow) welcoming Nazi (being Nazi themselves) and kick out by valiant rebels, but again, I am not a critic for stages. But not sure, to be fair. Mystery, mystery...
But this flag-waving character is not trying to resists the black-clad nazis he is just watching them do their terrible business of marching and saluting. Where's the valiance you speak of?
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