Templars? Fakes more like...

[Bob the Insane]

I start to thread because of an event in my campaign last night..

I am playing the English on Hard/Early. I am challenging myself to follow the GA's..

So I have not expanded and after so time setting up trade and a good economy and a defensive army, I started with the Crusading... It went well and I ended up with free units of Order Footmen and Templars.

Now my first real challenge for these guys was oddly enough in Ireland. I had noticed that my Homelands GA had changed to include Ireland and Brittany. SO I started building spies to pry Brittany away for the French and sent my Crusader based army into action in Ireland.

The Battle was pretty straight forward, the enemy was 2 units of Galloglasses and 4 units of Kerns (including the General. I had 2 full units of Order Footmen, 5 full units of Feudal Sergeants, 2 units of Archers, 1 unit of Vikings(picked up by a crusade..), 2 units of Royal knights and 1 unit of 25 Templars. My General was 5 star and in one of the Feudal Sergeants units.

The map was coastal and the battle took place parallel to the coast. Both side where initially deployed on high ground either side of a shallow valley which ran to the sea. For my guys, the valley and the Irish where directly ahead, steep wooded hill acted as the right-hand boundary and the beach and sea the left-hand boundary..

The Irish stayed in place on their high ground,

I strung the archers in a thin line in front of the line of Sergeants with the Order Footmen bring up the rear as reserves. The Viking where sent down the beach in an attempt to flank on the left and the cavalry was sent into the wood hills to flank of the right.

When the cavalry had achieved a good position to charge on the right flank of the enemy and moved the rest up into archer range.

When things kicked off the Kerns charge out to skirmish against the archers and I advanced the Sergeants and Footmen to cut them down.

Now the enemies attention was focused forwards I brought the Vikings around to the flank and sent the cavalry to attack the Kern General and Galloglasses..

The main area of discussion is the Templars who had a clear run at the Galloglasses, the Galloglasses counter-charge the templars and the two units smashed into each order with me watching.. Then... argh... within 10 seconds all 25 Templars where dead also the Royal knights send against the other Gallowglass unit. The knights send against the Kern General had faired better and despite heavy casualties had killed the Irish General and routed his unit...

Now it was time for the Order Footmen to shine, they smashed into the Galloglasses and fought it out..

I came out victorious (we did have a significant number advantage..), but my cavalry??? My elite Templars???
the battle finish and the majority of casualties on my side where the cavalry and not a spear carrying bloke anywhere among the bad guys??

SOowhat did I do wrong, was I expecting too much of my knights???

[Nobunaga0611]

Just in my experience, I have found that its best to let enemy units smash all they want against your spears or order foot, and flank with cav and shock units like the vikings. I almost never engage straightforward on inf. w/cavs, at least I didn't pre-patch. now...its whatever works http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Nobunaga0611]

They could have had a negative vice affecting morale, or something like that. Many times, flanking penalties, along with close units that are running, and the amount of enemy units around the unit will cause it to rout. Theres many more things that it could be....these are just ideas.

[Bob the Insane]

Nice ideas...

Note this is Post-Patch..

But, there was no route, there was no time for one, the Templars just dropped like flies... Saying they were all dead within 10 seconds is probably overestamating there effectiveness...

[econ21]

Gallowglasses have a charge bonus of 8 and an AP weapon; templars a bonus of 4 (thanks to the artist's depiction of them without lance). Plus they have 60 men to your 40.
I have changed the Templars charge bonus to 8 in line with other knights, but have learnt to stay clear of Gallowglasses. They are lethal in a charge but lightly armoured. Shoot them. The Templars will be great for routing the kerns when the Gallowglasses have been shot and then speared to death.
Now you have Ireland, build Gallowglasses Remember that there charge bonus is not negated by spears as I think cavalry's may be.

[Kraxis]

Appelton is right, when the Gallowglasses hit your Templars they had a massive attack.
8 (from chargebonus) + 5 (basic attackvalue) + 3 (from AP as it give 1 attack from 3 Armour per two upwards, and Tamplars have 7 Armour) = 16 when they strike your Tamplars, well enough to kill them fast as they only have 5 in defense.
On the other hand the Templars hit with 4 + 5 = 9 against the Gallowglasses 0 defense, but that only evened out at -9 compared to the Templars -11. So obviously they would take heavier losses.

[Whitey]

I am always uneasy when someone quotes the maths to me on why some unit gets slaughtered by another...I only ever used 'feel' when I played STW seriously, to this day I have not learned the stats of any units, oh, except that YA had 1 armour...not that helpful am I http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[LordKhaine]

I dont pay attention to the numbers either. If I know a glassglass unit has a powerful charge why do I need to know the charge stat? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Bob the Insane]

So does that make Templar Knights a bit useless? What are they good for?? (other than looking good...:))

[econ21]

I like knowing the numbers from a historical wargaming kind of interest. I'm a grognard who is interested in - or grumbles about - why a 50mm AT gun has a higher attack value in original The Operational Art of War game than a 75mm one (the answer was rate of fire, apparently). I can't say it alters my gameplay much in Medieval, although personally I prefer making an informed choice when upgrading or purchasing troops (eg as English, should I use Gallowglasses or Highlanders as flankers?) Indeed one of the things I like about the Total War system compared to classical wargames such as TOAW is that you don't need to "count the odds" to play properly but instead make decisions on a basis closer to those made by the generals in real life. Knowing the stats may substitute for learning from a few hard knocks but little more.

[econ21]

Bob - Templars are still useful but a little weaker than other order knights (charge bonus 4, not 8). I would say their primary function, like all cavalry, is pursuing a running foe. Secondary purpose is running down archers, kerns and other soft targets. Light cav can do both just as well of course. However, heavy cavalry like Templars are good at launching a rear or flank charge against an enemy tied up with your spears. In extremis, they can also be a good reserve to counter-charge enemy cavalry that breaks through your formation.

[Kraxis]

Bob, use Hobilars and Mounted Sergeants for chasing the enemy. They are lighter and don't tire as fast, as well as costs less and don't have such a great impact on the melee if not there.

The Templars just need to make sure they are not charged by a unit with great charge and AP, meaning Gallowglasses and Ghazi, though Ghazis would suffer more from the Templars charge then the other way.
Send the Templars to defeat the enemy cav, they are more than capable at this if it is Early where no high class cavalry can face them off. Then attack engaged units, but freeroaming Peasants and Urban Militia are also great targets for the charge.

[cart6566]

From your description, it seems like there was a good chance that some of the Irish units had a down-hill charge bonus against you too. It is sometimes tricky to get "level" with defending units in order to avoid this bonus (penalty to the player). That at least may have been why your Order Foot took heavy losses. The down-hill charge is one of the most deadly bonuses in the game, in my experience.

To the point of your post, I agree, the Crusader Cav just seems to get eaten alive in many situations. Order Foot are much more valuable in the early game.

[Azrael]

Templars can be a bit tempermental.

As part of my Crusade forces, they never really seemed to outshine lesser Knights.
Also it's really bad news to throw your cavalry at people with spears.
That being said, when my Crusade bumped into a German Crusade fighting an Egyptian army, the Germans attacked me, and their Templars really inflicted some serious damage on my Spear troops.
Also, I Crusaded against Antioch, and when I was successful, moved an Army into Tripoli, since it was another Crusade objective.
The French Crusaded into Tripoli, and when I refused them access (The General informs you he is on a Crusade from God - Will you hand over the Province Willingly?) I found myself facing a French Force of 1 Templar, and mabye 19 other men, mix of Spearment and Archers.
The rabble all fled, when my massive Army advanced, but the Templar held his ground to the death.
I attacked him with Spear Troops and he killed absoloutely loads of them before he died.
There must be something dodgy with English Templars.

Azrael

[Kraxis]

cart... Order Knights, all of them, are just Chivalric Knights that don't charge into battle by themselves (though Teutonics do at times). So the lesser knights are not better. Templars are different that they don't have the 8 charge as all other knights have.
Don't think that Order Knights are allpowering units, they are good (and have become better with the patch), but take care in what you attack with them and when you do so. Just like with normal knights.

[YunDog]

but they look cool

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Bob the Insane]

Thanks for all the replies..

A couple of points, firsty yhe Order Footmen did excellently, fighting uphill against the Galloglasses..

Secondly, the death of the Templars. I though it was a pretty perfect attack.. The Templars where charging the the Gallowglasses on their left flank on level ground having managed to totally flank the enemy formation. The Galloglasses wheeled about at the last moment and counter charge, not perfect but I thought the Templars would at lest do a lot of damage, but they just dropped like flies..

From what has been said, I believe the fault lies more with me for underestimating the sheer effectiveness of the Galloglasses and not in the Templar being useless. I had unfortuanately targeted one of the few units that could take my Templars apart with ease..