View Full Version : Switzerland: Multi-tool acceptable, multiculture not.
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 00:38
So...
Switzerland just said "no" to immigration (more or less). They held a public vote, and it turns out the people of Switzerland wanted the country to remain, you know, "Swiss".
I feel a bit weird here... Honestly speaking.
Last I posted about immigration I got a temp-ban. Not because what I wrote was offensive or even wrong (unless facts are suddenly offensive and wrong), but because, you know... People might be upset.
So... Oh well, I will give it one last shot.
This report >>>http://www.ibc7.org/article/journal_v.php?sid=312<<< might have had some to do with it, as it became known at around the same time in German speaking nations (as well as my ban).
The report basically give the eggheads and other neo-nazis right in some regards. Long story short, it states that African genes lack... Uh... I'll just let you guess as I would like to at least be able to finish this thread before I get a perm-ban.
To discuss:
* How about Switzerland's decision?
* "If" there are anomalies found in our very DNA between geographical groups, how are we as an inclusive society to deal with it when it comes to itchy factors like IQ?
I know mods put quite a lot of hate on me last time... But seriously, this is THE political questions in many countries, mine included. If you can't talk political things on a political board... Then I guess I'll just bow out.
Heck, as mentioned, Switzerland just had a public vote on it. Swedens election in some months are all about it.
THESE THINGS SHOULD BE OPENLY DISCUSSED, THEY SHOULD NOT BE HIDDEN OR BANNED FROM PUBLIC VIEW.
Switzerland must be banned from these forums. My fellow orgahs, if you happen to be Swiss please cancel your account. Thank you.
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 01:09
Switzerland must be banned from these forums. My fellow orgahs, if you happen to be Swiss please cancel your account. Thank you.
Don't you just KNOW something is awkward when quite possibly the LEAST disagreeable nation of the world smell something rotten...
HoreTore
02-15-2014, 01:12
Yes.
Africans and Asian have ruined Switzerland. That's why it's a brilliant idea to block Poles and Frenchmen from entering.
What brilliant logic!!!
What else could one expect from the braindead?
They refuse to bury their heads in the sand. I respect that.
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 01:18
Yes.
Africans and Asian have ruined Switzerland. That's why it's a brilliant idea to block Poles and Frenchmen from entering.
What brilliant logic!!!
What else could one expect from the braindead?
Honestly HT, I think they voted against Gypsies and Africans more than the Poles and the French... No? :inquisitive:
HoreTore
02-15-2014, 01:20
Honestly HT, I think they voted against Gypsies and Africans more than the Poles and the French... No? :inquisitive:
No, they did not.
They voted against immigration from the EU. They did not vote against immigration from Africa or Romania. Neither Africans, Asians nor Roma will be affected by this vote.
This is seriously the dumbest idea in the history of everything. A clear example of why representative democracy is better than direct democracy.
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 01:23
No, they did not.
They voted against immigration from the EU. They did not vote against immigration from Africa or Romania.
This is seriously the dumbest idea in the history of everything.
Romania is not part of the EU? I feel bad for the kids you teach.:no:
EDIT: It's true that the vote was about EU, but if you follow German speaking news, you will be able to tell that general immigration had a LOT to do with the decision at large. If for no other reason that they now can say "no" to the Swedish Africans... You know, since we in the EU started to hand out citizenship - you can be a "swede" and still, say, an African war criminal. Cool, huh?
This is seriously the dumbest idea in the history of everything. A clear example of why representative democracy is better than direct democracy.
It only makes sense considering that Switzerland is surrounded by the EU. Not much point to limiting immigration from Mongolia when you're Swiss.
HoreTore
02-15-2014, 01:26
Romania is not part of the EU? I feel bad for the kids you teach.:no:
I feel bad for your uninformed gibberish.
Romania is a part of the EU. It is not a part of the Schengen area.
Seriously. Get some knowledge.
HoreTore
02-15-2014, 01:27
It only makes sense considering that Switzerland is surrounded by the EU. Not much point to limiting immigration from Mongolia when you're Swiss.
Refugees and asylum seekers arrive directly in Switzerland, and so is not affected by a ban of EU nationals.
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 01:29
I feel bad for your uninformed gibberish.
Romania is a part of the EU. It is not a part of the Schengen area.
Seriously. Get some knowledge.
DUDE.
If you alter your text... You cant flame people based on the altered text, when they answered the unaltered text.
... doh!?
HoreTore
02-15-2014, 01:35
DUDE.
If you alter your text... You cant flame people based on the altered text, when they answered the unaltered text.
... doh!?
What I added did not change the meaning of my post one bit. Stop your crying, woman.
As for what you added: I have no doubt that the people who voted in favour of this rubbish wanted to vote against Africans, muslims, and all that. The hilarity is that this vote does not affect them whatsoever.
What they have done is ban EU nationals, ie. people like me and you. If they want a Swede moving to Switzerland, they have to accept the Swede with African origins same as the ethnic Swede. Don't want African Swedes? Then you can't get ethnic swedes.
Refugees and asylum seekers arrive directly in Switzerland, and so is not affected by a ban of EU nationals.
The Swiss aren't stupid. If they banned immigration from EU, it means that most of the undesirables were coming from within the EU. Guys who have the best banks, make the best cheese, best watches and the best chocolate would know what's best for them.
HoreTore
02-15-2014, 01:36
The Swiss aren't stupid. If they banned immigration from EU, it means that most of the undesirables were coming from within the EU. Guys who have the best banks, make the best cheese, best watches and the best chocolate would know what's best for them.
You give them far too much credit, I'm afraid.
EDIT: On second thought.... Kadagar is an EU national who has lived in Switzerland, isn't he? I think I'm starting to understand their vote....
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 01:39
What I added did not change the meaning of my post one bit. Stop your crying, woman.
As for what you added: I have no doubt that the people who voted in favour of this rubbish wanted to vote against Africans, muslims, and all that. The hilarity is that this vote does not affect them whatsoever.
What they have done is ban EU nationals, ie. people like me and you. If they want a Swede moving to Switzerland, they have to accept the Swede with African origins same as the ethnic Swede. Don't want African Swedes? Then you can't get ethnic swedes.
It changed the whole meaning of your post, silly.
Anyway, You are wrong. I could spend time explaining why, but I would like to hear from some others instead of debating a Norwegian high on oil fumes :clown:
HoreTore
02-15-2014, 01:42
It changed the whole meaning of your post, silly.
Please explain how the following two sentences:
Neither Africans, Asians nor Roma will be affected by this vote.
A clear example of why representative democracy is better than direct democracy.
..."changed the whole meaning of my post". I'm dying in anticipation.
Anyway, You are wrong.
I see you have reached the limit of your intelligence already, and can no longer come up with an argument. Sooner than I had anticipated. Must be some African blood in your veins, according to the OP....
HoreTore
02-15-2014, 01:54
Also, I feel a need to comment on the absolutely hilarious thread title. Multiculture not accepted in Switzerland? Switzerland...? The European country based on four different cultures, who never adopted a monoculture like the rest of us did...?
This report >>>http://www.ibc7.org/article/journal_v.php?sid=312<<< might have had some to do with it, as it became known at around the same time in German speaking nations (as well as my ban).
Does that report even account for other factors or does it just assume there is a direct correlation between genes and IQ?
I don't have time to read it all at 2am.
Don't you just KNOW something is awkward when quite possibly the LEAST disagreeable nation of the world smell something rotten...
The least disagreeable nation? Surely that's sarcasm when we're talking about the nation that thrives from hiding nazi and dictator gold and helping everybody from the surrounding countries to hide their taxable income. I have no idea where you get this least disagreeable notion from, half of that country is a parasite on the rest of Europe.
Honestly HT, I think they voted against Gypsies and Africans more than the Poles and the French... No? :inquisitive:
No, it's against Germans: http://www.thelocal.de/20120426/42177
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/mar/25/germany.kateconnolly
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 02:54
Does that report even account for other factors or does it just assume there is a direct correlation between genes and IQ?
I don't have time to read it all at 2am.
It doesn't account for any factors.
It looks at genes held in prospering students. They then checked where these genes could be found geographically (alternatively could NOT be found). So, really, there are no "factors" here, as we are so used to be able to hide behind when we discuss immigration policies.
Kagemusha
02-15-2014, 07:13
So...
Switzerland just said "no" to immigration (more or less). They held a public vote, and it turns out the people of Switzerland wanted the country to remain, you know, "Swiss".
I feel a bit weird here... Honestly speaking.
Last I posted about immigration I got a temp-ban. Not because what I wrote was offensive or even wrong (unless facts are suddenly offensive and wrong), but because, you know... People might be upset.
So... Oh well, I will give it one last shot.
This report >>>http://www.ibc7.org/article/journal_v.php?sid=312<<< might have had some to do with it, as it became known at around the same time in German speaking nations (as well as my ban).
The report basically give the eggheads and other neo-nazis right in some regards. Long story short, it states that African genes lack... Uh... I'll just let you guess as I would like to at least be able to finish this thread before I get a perm-ban.
To discuss:
* How about Switzerland's decision?
* "If" there are anomalies found in our very DNA between geographical groups, how are we as an inclusive society to deal with it when it comes to itchy factors like IQ?
I know mods put quite a lot of hate on me last time... But seriously, this is THE political questions in many countries, mine included. If you can't talk political things on a political board... Then I guess I'll just bow out.
Heck, as mentioned, Switzerland just had a public vote on it. Swedens election in some months are all about it.
THESE THINGS SHOULD BE OPENLY DISCUSSED, THEY SHOULD NOT BE HIDDEN OR BANNED FROM PUBLIC VIEW.
And can you please explain what is Swiss or Switzerland? Multicultural Cantons having variety of languages bind together because of mutual interest maybe?
Their country their rules. Should be noted that it's about work. These aren't immigrants that just rolled of the mountain but highly educated professionals we are talking about.
a completely inoffensive name
02-15-2014, 10:14
Just to clarify before this thread goes any further. Are we sure this anything to do with race or maybe the Swiss just want to keep real estate prices low by reducing demand?
GenosseGeneral
02-15-2014, 10:22
Well, as a country of about 8 million, Switze%rland is home to about 2 million foreigners. That is about 25 % of the overall population.
The largest groups are Germans and Italians, both numbering somewhere around 300.000. Mostly, these are highly educated people who have moved to Switzerland because salaries are extremely high (I have been told, the average.worker at McDonald's in Zürich makes 27.5 Franks/hour - that is about the same in USD or a bit more than 20 Euros).
So since Switzerland is extremely wealthy, offers a high standard of living and is a part of Schengen, a good deal of people want to make use of that chance.
I am living a 10 min walk from the border, and guess where I look for a job for the upcoming holidays…
Anyway, as the Swiss always liked to point out that they are no Germans, Italians or French but Swiss, there are a lot of people complaining about how the country is flooded by foreigners, who do not know Swiss customs or who do not know the Swiss dialect. (The German-speaking Swiss have a very distinctive dialect.) Also they complained about trains being crowded because of too many foreigners and so on
Well and somehow, the Swiss people's party, has managed to get 50.3 % of Swiss to vote in favor of a proposition to limit immigration in order 'to keep Switzerland Swiss'.
Interestingly, this was favored most in rural and in German-speaking areas.
From my point of view, it is their choice. However not a smart one. By limiting immigration, your doctor will not learn your dialect. He simply won't be there next time.
Also, a lot of companies, especially high-tech ones, employ up to 60-80% foreigners. With this proposition passed, they will have to prove for every single one, that there was no Swiss person who could do his job.
So in the end, the Swiss will have to pay a price for their decision, a price to be paid in standard of living and prosperity.
It doesn't account for any factors.
It looks at genes held in prospering students. They then checked where these genes could be found geographically (alternatively could NOT be found). So, really, there are no "factors" here, as we are so used to be able to hide behind when we discuss immigration policies.
That's still problematic because it doesn't prove these genes are the reason, it just shows a correlation and correlation does not equal causation. And even if it does, it could be the other way around. It has already been shown that certain life events of mothers can have an effect on the children they give birth to many years later. Life is a little bit more complicated than "they are dumb because they lack this gene" and there could be many reasons why they lack it, which could in turn affect the conclusions draw from the whole thing.
highly educated professionals we are talking about.
I already said we are talking about Germans.
Just to clarify before this thread goes any further. Are we sure this anything to do with race or maybe the Swiss just want to keep real estate prices low by reducing demand?
No, it's just this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80D7RRquPww
From my point of view, it is their choice. However not a smart one.
Indeed. It's a perfect deal for the Swiss. They get educated people basicly for free, they didn't have to pay a cent for their education, giving a good salary is a bargain when you consider that. They are in a very sweet spot.
Here is a summary of the thread so far:
Kadagar: Those swiss passed an EU only immigration bill! it is to keep out those black people! Here is some unrelated study to show that blacks are inferior again! Freedom of speech!
rvg: I don't know about the subject, but its their choice!
HoreTore: Wait.. Swiss has a monoculture?
Everyone else: Erm... it is to stop talented white German and other European high-flyers from getting the best jobs.
Kadagar: Yeah but, no but, yeah but.. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zExc6SK4kpA) BLACK PEOPLE AND GYPSIES
Fragony: Sorry but these are highly educated professionals we are talking about..
Everyone Else: *Stories and information to prove this point*
Did you research this subject at all or are you simply trying to find another excuse to bring up the 'evils' of Black people again?
The reason you got an infraction last time was because you kept spouting the same stuff when you were requested to stop, by an admin no less.
Except that the EU thinks that Switzerland cannot cherry-pick how it is a leech on the EU. They will have to re-negotiate some contracts and if they do not want free trade in jobs, the EU may not want free trade with Switzerland any more at all. And who could blame the EU for not wanting Switzerland to get all the benefits while the EU only loses?
Except that the EU thinks that Switzerland cannot cherry-pick how it is a leech on the EU. They will have to re-negotiate some contracts and if they do not want free trade in jobs, the EU may not want free trade with Switzerland any more at all. And who could blame the EU for not wanting Switzerland to get all the benefits while the EU only loses?
They have jobs people want, what's the problem. They don't have to bother with the immigration-quota of the EU, and countless other rules that are not in their interest. The EU loses ha, whatever the EU loses, the democratic nation-state wins.
They have jobs people want, what's the problem. They don't have to bother with the immigration-quota of the EU, and countless other rules that are not in their interest. The EU loses ha, whatever the EU loses, the democratic nation-state wins.
No nation-state exists in a vacuum, Swiss people come to Germany to buy food because their food prices are as high as their wages. If the EU makes such things a lot harder, e.g. by closing the borders to Switzerland or making trade between EU countries and Switzerland harder or more expensive, then the Swiss will get their very own problems. How about we do not let any airplanes in or out any more? After all, Switzerland doesn't want to cooperate, so why would we let planes to or from there blow dirt into our precious fresh air on their way through?
No nation-state exists in a vacuum, Swiss people come to Germany to buy food because their food prices are as high as their wages. If the EU makes such things a lot harder, e.g. by closing the borders to Switzerland or making trade between EU countries and Switzerland harder or more expensive, then the Swiss will get their very own problems. How about we do not let any airplanes in or out any more? After all, Switzerland doesn't want to cooperate, so why would we let planes to or from there blow dirt into our precious fresh air on their way through?
Why would we want to harass the Swiss with any of that? We can just cooperate, no problem. If they can buy cheaper in Germany so what, benefits everyone. The EU acts like b*tch turned down if it doesn't get it's way, and what the EU wants is scary as hell. Switserland is a democracy, a concept totally alien to eurocrats, it just gets in their way, the EU is an ultra-undemocratic institution runned by an unelected Flemish ferret who looks like an owl who just dropped from it's tree, an unelected German booksalesman, good after the war and full-time godwin-cannon, and his unelected Portugese waiter. Go Switzerland, where they still listen to their population.
Why would we want to harass the Swiss with any of that? We can just cooperate, no problem. If they can buy cheaper in Germany so what, benefits everyone. The EU acts like b*tch turned down if it doesn't get it's way, and what the EU wants is scary as hell. Switserland is a democracy, a concept totally alien to eurocrats, it just gets in their way, the EU is an ultra-undemocratic institution runned by an unelected Flemish ferret who looks like an owl who just dropped from it's tree, an unelected German booksalesman, good after the war and full-time godwin-cannon, and his unelected Portugese waiter. Go Switzerland, where they still listen to their population.
Switzerland signed contracts with the EU you know, contracts where they let people in to look for jobs in return for other benefits.
Now they do not want these contracts any more, at least not the ones where they owe us anything, so why should we keep the ones where we owe them anything? The EU can only act like a ***** because Switzerland is trying to make the EU its ***** by cherry-picking the contracts it wants to uphold.
Why would the EU give Switzerland benefits for nothing in return?
Switzerland signed contracts with the EU you know, contracts where they let people in to look for jobs in return for other benefits.
Now they do not want these contracts any more, at least not the ones where they owe us anything, so why should we keep the ones where we owe them anything? The EU can only act like a ***** because Switzerland is trying to make the EU its ***** by cherry-picking the contracts it wants to uphold.
Why would the EU give Switzerland benefits for nothing in return?
Than don't, the Swiss don't even want to be EU, surely they will get over it that they get borders, they probably want them already. Neither do the Brits and Dutch want the EU, both the Brittish and Dutch are pretty horrified by what it has become, and is increasingly horrified of what it is becomming. If we would have a referendum here (and at our limey buddies) the outcome would probably be that we want out and return to the EEG.
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 18:29
From what I have heard and seen from Swiss friends and contacts, muslims seem targeted in the campaigns...
I don't think it's the German engineers they perceive as a threat to "Swissness". Yeah, I just totally made up that word. LOVE it though :yes:
From what I have heard and seen from Swiss friends and contacts, muslims seem targeted in the campaigns...
I don't think it's the German engineers they perceive as a threat to "Swissness". Yeah, I just totally made up that word. LOVE it though :yes:
I proved my point with two links and you have "random anecdotes".....
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 19:41
I proved my point with two links and you have "random anecdotes".....
http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Egerkingen-Committee-anti-Muslim-poster.jpg
Random anecdotes, sure. I saw it more like people actually from Switzerland explaining their view on the situation. I guess it was different from Kanton to Kanton though :)
Would love if we had some Swiss people here who could describe what the discussion looked like.
Sarmatian
02-15-2014, 22:19
A Swiss doesn't necessarily have a better perspective on things in Switzerland. One can hardly ask everyone for an opinion.
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 22:31
A Swiss doesn't necessarily have a better perspective on things in Switzerland. One can hardly ask everyone for an opinion.
Of course.
I just meant that Swiss people thinking it was much about non-european immigration kind of get strenghtened by the anti-muslim posters.
Let's remember that today's "Swedes" might well wear burkha and not speak Swedish...
Again, I don't think the perceived threat was German engineers, nor Swedish scholars.
http://www.barenakedislam.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Egerkingen-Committee-anti-Muslim-poster.jpg
Random anecdotes, sure. I saw it more like people actually from Switzerland explaining their view on the situation. I guess it was different from Kanton to Kanton though :)
Would love if we had some Swiss people here who could describe what the discussion looked like.
And since these campaigns are by racist nationalists for racist nationalists, we can assume that 51% of Switzerland are racist nationalists?
What was this about "least disagreeable nation" again?
The only thing this proves is that rich people do not want to share and become more greedy and protective of their wealth. Saint Martin (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Louis_Anselme_Longa%2C_La_charité_de_saint_Martin.jpg) must be turning in his grave...
Also, voter turnout was 55.8% (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-09/swiss-voters-support-immigration-limits-with-50-3-srf.html), that's pretty bad for direct democracy.
The people with an education, i.e. business leaders, are very worried by this step and hope it will be implemented with as much restraint as possible (also in the last link), so we'll see how it will "benefit" the Swiss economy.
It's funny how you try to prove a point about IQ and support this step and yet the people in Switzerland with a high IQ are against it...
Again, I don't think the perceived threat was German engineers, nor Swedish scholars.
Yet you are wrong. German engineers just don't look as oriental and scary on posters, but they are one of the reasons for this, I already showed you that nationalist swiss politicians (you know, the ones who drove this referendum) wanted to stop immigration from Germany.
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 22:38
And since these campaigns are by racist nationalists for racist nationalists, we can assume that 51% of Switzerland are racist nationalists?
What was this about "least disagreeable nation" again?
The only thing this proves is that rich people do not want to share and become more greedy and protective of their wealth. Saint Martin (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Louis_Anselme_Longa%2C_La_charité_de_saint_Martin.jpg) must be turning in his grave...
Also, voter turnout was 55.8% (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-09/swiss-voters-support-immigration-limits-with-50-3-srf.html), that's pretty bad for direct democracy.
The people with an education, i.e. business leaders, are very worried by this step and hope it will be implemented with as much restraint as possible (also in the last link), so we'll see how it will "benefit" the Swiss economy.
It's funny how you try to prove a point about IQ and support this step and yet the people in Switzerland with a high IQ are against it...
Honestly speaking, I think IQ has little to do with how people vote on this issue. Even intelligent people tend to be controlled by their local echo-chamber.
That link was to show that there exists racial differences beyond the color of your skin and thickness of your hair. Should be an obvious point, of course. But plenty of people still seem to disregard it.
HoreTore
02-15-2014, 23:17
Oh wow, Kadgar has an entire wiki article about himself. (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Racial_realism)
Kadagar_AV
02-15-2014, 23:41
Oh wow, Kadgar has an entire wiki article about himself. (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Racial_realism)
That was low, even for you HT. You are supposed to attack the argument, not the person. At least not in such an unschoolary way (second made up word, that again is AWESOME).
I know you will come to the same conclusion, so I will let you edit instead of bothering mods.
Tellos Athenaios
02-15-2014, 23:50
Well, I suppose some French real estate agents will be happy.
Honestly speaking, I think IQ has little to do with how people vote on this issue. Even intelligent people tend to be controlled by their local echo-chamber.
That link was to show that there exists racial differences beyond the color of your skin and thickness of your hair. Should be an obvious point, of course. But plenty of people still seem to disregard it.
That was not my point, unless you are saying top managers are usually bleeding-heart leftists. :laugh4:
HoreTore
02-16-2014, 00:06
That was low, even for you HT. You are supposed to attack the argument, not the person. At least not in such an unschoolary way (second made up word, that again is AWESOME).
I know you will come to the same conclusion, so I will let you edit instead of bothering mods.
I'm amazed at your inability to see that this is a criticism of your nonsensical "arguments", not your person.
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 00:17
That was not my point, unless you are saying top managers are usually bleeding-heart leftists. :laugh4:
No. Top managers generally want to pay the least they can. Hence they OF COURSE support immigration. Far better to have immigrants working in the factories than troublesome Swiss guys asking for things such as "healthcare" or "vacation".
The Swiss, however, decided that a Swiss worker is worth the payment of a Swiss worker.
I must say I applaud the Swiss. Sweden USED to be like that, but these days you cant oppose work conditions as there are 10 Somalis ready to take your job.
I honestly think Switzerland will be better off in the long run, keeping their nationality and trademark.
Seriously, "Swiss quality" is a selling point. That point would diminish, or rather go out the window, if suddenly Swiss quality meant - Quality from random African or Middle Eastern refugee.
No. Top managers generally want to pay the least they can. Hence they OF COURSE support immigration. Far better to have immigrants working in the factories than troublesome Swiss guys asking for things such as "healthcare" or "vacation".
They can just move factories to the workers now instead of letting the workers come to the factories. I bet that will help the economy in the long run.
I honestly think Switzerland will be better off in the long run, keeping their nationality and trademark.
Seriously, "Swiss quality" is a selling point. That point would diminish, or rather go out the window, if suddenly Swiss quality meant - Quality from random African or Middle Eastern refugee.
Yeah, you can hardly sell a good quality german knife any more, there are always ten swiss knives willing to be sold instead. I think we should ban swiss goods from flooding our precious markets and stealing our sales.
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 00:30
They can just move factories to the workers now instead of letting the workers come to the factories. I bet that will help the economy in the long run.
Yeah, you can hardly sell a good quality german knife any more, there are always ten swiss knives willing to be sold instead. I think we should ban swiss goods from flooding our precious markets and stealing our sales.
Now you are just being silly. You get my point.
HoreTore
02-16-2014, 00:31
They can just move factories to the workers now instead of letting the workers come to the factories. I bet that will help the economy in the long run.
If the Swiss actually do start restricting foreign nationals(something I highly doubt), I suspect that nearly every Swiss-based multinational organization(the ones who actually make money) will leave in a hurry. Restricting access to labour is one of the most effective ways of scaring away business there is. I'm currently working for a multinational organization based in Switzerland, and I can see them running off to Korea instantly if this nonsense creates any problems. Switzerland will be left with only their domestic companies(who don't make money), and will see their living standards plummet. To top it all off, they will no longer have anyone but themselves to blame for their problems.
Should be a blast to watch from a distance.
Montmorency
02-16-2014, 00:32
I think this is Kad's reasoning:
1. There are blacks and Muslims in the member-states of the Schengen.
2. They have freedom-of-movement into Switzerland by treaty.
3. The Swiss don't want blacks and Muslims to move in from the EU.
4. They implement restrictions on the Schengen requirements to block movement from the EU.
What Kad doesn't consider: 1. As noted, non-black/Muslim Schengeners are affected.
2. Far more established Europeans take advantage of Schengen than the poor, ghettoed Muslims and blacks Kad fears.
3. This does not affect direct movement into Switzerland from black/Muslim countries.
For instance, 1.5 million foreign residents in Switzerland are European citizens, while 200,000 are from Asia or Africa.
Unless you can find stats that show that, of the Europeans with permanent residency in Switzerland, massive numbers of Muslims, greater than those coming from Africa and Asia, are flooding into the country, then I'm afraid you don't have a leg to stand on...
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 01:00
Guessed stuff
Honestly, my point is "YEY!!! Go Swiss nationalism!!"
You don't have to dig much deeper than that.
Now you are just being silly.
I'm not, but if you think that is silly, consider that the Swiss were the ones doing it for a long time: http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Europe/Switzerland-AGRICULTURE.html
Here's more:
http://globaledge.msu.edu/countries/switzerland/economy
I have boldened some interesting parts:
Being a nation that depends on exports for economic growth, and due to the fact that it is so closely linked to the economies of Western Europe and the United States, Switzerland's economy mirrors slowdowns and growth spurts experienced in these countries.
[...]
During most of the 1990s, the Swiss economy was Western Europe's weakest, with annual GDP growth averaging 0% between 1991 and 1997. Beginning in late 1997, the economy steadily gained momentum until peaking in 2000 with 3% growth in real terms. The economy returned to lackluster growth during 2001-2003, but began growing at or above potential since 2004--2.5% per annum--until the recent global economic crisis, which impacted Switzerland's growth. The year 2008 was marked by a worsening of the financial crisis and the beginning of its spread to the economy as a whole. Long-run economic growth is predicated on structural reforms. In order to maximize its economic potential, Switzerland will need to push through difficult agrarian and competition policy reforms.
[...]
The Swiss economy earns roughly half of its corporate earnings from the export industry. The EU is Switzerland's largest trading partner (59% of exports and 75% of imports in 2010), and economic and trade barriers between them are minimal. After more than 4 years of negotiations, an agreement known as the "Bilaterals I" covering seven sectors (research, public procurement, technical barriers to trade, agriculture, civil aviation, land transport, and the free movement of persons) entered into force on June 1, 2002. Switzerland has so far attempted to mitigate possible adverse effects of non-membership by conforming many of its regulations, standards, and practices to EU directives and norms. Full access to the Swiss market for the original 15 EU member states entered into force in June 2004, ending as a result the "national preference."
So please tell me how Switzerland is better off with an isolationist policy or why the EU should stick to the other six points of the "Bilateral I" treaty if Switzerland wants to cancel the seventh point? The treaty was negotiated this way and if Switzerland does not agree with it anymore, the whole treaty is up for negotiation again. The ones being silly here are the Swiss.
You get my point.
That racism and scaremongering could make us all rich like Switzerland? That sounds like a very bad point given that Switzerland is only rich because it is partially integrated into the EU and is one of few countries that leech money by aiding tax evasion and playing bank for dictators.
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 01:11
Well, as a country of about 8 million, Switze%rland is home to about 2 million foreigners. That is about 25 % of the overall population.
The largest groups are Germans and Italians, both numbering somewhere around 300.000. Mostly, these are highly educated people who have moved to Switzerland because salaries are extremely high (I have been told, the average.worker at McDonald's in Zürich makes 27.5 Franks/hour - that is about the same in USD or a bit more than 20 Euros).
So since Switzerland is extremely wealthy, offers a high standard of living and is a part of Schengen, a good deal of people want to make use of that chance.
I am living a 10 min walk from the border, and guess where I look for a job for the upcoming holidays…
Anyway, as the Swiss always liked to point out that they are no Germans, Italians or French but Swiss, there are a lot of people complaining about how the country is flooded by foreigners, who do not know Swiss customs or who do not know the Swiss dialect. (The German-speaking Swiss have a very distinctive dialect.) Also they complained about trains being crowded because of too many foreigners and so on
Well and somehow, the Swiss people's party, has managed to get 50.3 % of Swiss to vote in favor of a proposition to limit immigration in order 'to keep Switzerland Swiss'.
Interestingly, this was favored most in rural and in German-speaking areas.
From my point of view, it is their choice. However not a smart one. By limiting immigration, your doctor will not learn your dialect. He simply won't be there next time.
Also, a lot of companies, especially high-tech ones, employ up to 60-80% foreigners. With this proposition passed, they will have to prove for every single one, that there was no Swiss person who could do his job.
So in the end, the Swiss will have to pay a price for their decision, a price to be paid in standard of living and prosperity.
I worked in Switzerland before, when they already had these laws.
Boss of the ski school made an insert in the local newspaper (to conform to the demands), that he needed a ski instructor, 187cm tall, qualified Alpine instructor with a history degree and who was fluid in Swedish. Oh, and he needed to be ranked Sgt. or more in the army as well.
Guess what? I GOT THE JOB!!
Don't underestimate the Swiss, they can still get the people they want, even WHILE keeping the trash out.
I worked in Switzerland before, when they already had these laws.
Boss of the ski school made an insert in the local newspaper (to conform to the demands), that he needed a ski instructor, 187cm tall, qualified Alpine instructor with a history degree and who was fluid in Swedish. Oh, and he needed to be ranked Sgt. or more in the army as well.
Guess what? I GOT THE JOB!!
So you already circumvented the will of the people that you applauded before? Congratulations! How did it feel to get some corrupt preferential treatment and not to be discriminated against? What if the boss of a factory asks for a guy who is 175cm tall, fluid in Congolese and a practicing muslim?
Don't underestimate the Swiss, they can still get the people they want, even WHILE keeping the trash out.
Not according to my definition of trash.
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 02:05
So you already circumvented the will of the people that you applauded before? Congratulations! How did it feel to get some corrupt preferential treatment and not to be discriminated against? What if the boss of a factory asks for a guy who is 175cm tall, fluid in Congolese and a practicing muslim?
Uh... As I got it, that was the will of the people.
I didn't "circumvent" it, they precisely had these laws to keep some in, and some out. Without having to openly state they don't want... Whatever it is that people might not want in their western country.
As to your definition of trash... I guess we all have our own definitions of what is trash and not.
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 02:34
Also, I feel a need to comment on the absolutely hilarious thread title. Multiculture not accepted in Switzerland? Switzerland...? The European country based on four different cultures, who never adopted a monoculture like the rest of us did...?
I must have missed this post, sorry.
Anyway...
They have four variants of SWISS culture.
They don't have Germans, They have Swiss speaking German.
They don't have french, they have SWISS speaking french.
I actually applaud them for this. They are centered in Europe, yet this very proud nation have been able to build up a national culture strong enough to keep all other powers at bay.
Heck, look at the countries surrounding them, it's not like they budged in to any of the perceived super powers at the time. Sure there are Swiss people speaking German, but Hitler walked his way around.
It was only under Napoleon that Switzerland lost some legibility, Helvetic Republic and all that. But hey, as soon as the world got rid of him they sprung right back.
They are by and large mountain folks. Germanic mountain folks. You could use that to shape a diamond when it comes to core strength, kind of like Scotland.
Uh... As I got it, that was the will of the people.
I didn't "circumvent" it, they precisely had these laws to keep some in, and some out. Without having to openly state they don't want... Whatever it is that people might not want in their western country.
Oh great, so they're now a country of secret racists who do not dare to tell anyone.
I actually applaud them for this. They are centered in Europe, yet this very proud nation have been able to build up a national culture strong enough to keep all other powers at bay.
Yet they are somehow strong, despite not wanting to tell anyone that they do not like some people.
Heck, look at the countries surrounding them, it's not like they budged in to any of the perceived super powers at the time. Sure there are Swiss people speaking German, but Hitler walked his way around.
Oh look! More jokes!
It was only under Napoleon that Switzerland lost some legibility, Helvetic Republic and all that. But hey, as soon as the world got rid of him they sprung right back.
They are by and large mountain folks. Germanic mountain folks. You could use that to shape a diamond when it comes to core strength, kind of like Scotland.
You're on a roll tonight, aren't you?
Nazi gold is always good to shape blood diamonds and it's quite obvious now who and what you are celebrating here...
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
02-16-2014, 03:11
I feel bad for your uninformed gibberish.
Romania is a part of the EU. It is not a part of the Schengen area.
Seriously. Get some knowledge.
No, you get some knowledge - Romanians have the same rights of free movement and settlement within the EU as everyone else - as of January this year.
Requring a passport to move is not the same as being refused entry.
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 03:29
No, you get some knowledge - Romanians have the same rights of free movement and settlement within the EU as everyone else - as of January this year.
Requring a passport to move is not the same as being refused entry.
<3
Uhm, that was too short an answer for this forum... I'll add:
"love."
HoreTore
02-16-2014, 03:53
No, you get some knowledge - Romanians have the same rights of free movement and settlement within the EU as everyone else - as of January this year.
Requring a passport to move is not the same as being refused entry.
Orly? (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials/switzerland_how_to/work_life/Work_permits.html?cid=29191706)
Special interim provisions governing access to the labour market by nationals from Bulgaria and Romania apply until 2016.
As for Roma problems in Switzerland... Not so much. (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/To_be_Roma_means_to_be_a_traveller_and_thief.html?cid=28286556)
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 04:15
Ya RLY!!
3 months permit = gypsies. They don't necessarily leave after the alluded 3 months, but they sure has a right to come.
As it is now in Sweden, we try to pay the Gypsies to go back.
As for Roma problems in Switzerland... Not so much. (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/To_be_Roma_means_to_be_a_traveller_and_thief.html?cid=28286556)
That link is about Swiss Gypsies. Not about Roman Gypsies. Roman gypsies is a WHOLE other breed from your average Swiss gypsy.
Like in Sweden. We have some Gypsy families dating back a hundred years or so. They are still criminal as ****, but it still isn't even in the same dictionary as the Romanian Gypsies.
They are absolutely PRO, bro (just wanted to rhyme).
HoreTore
02-16-2014, 04:18
Ya RLY!!
3 months permit = gypsies. They don't necessarily leave after the alluded 3 months, but they sure has a right to come.
.....Which isn't affected whatsoever by this vote, thus completely irrelevant.
The Swiss voted against residence permits for workers, not tourists.
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 04:36
.....Which isn't affected whatsoever by this vote, thus completely irrelevant.
The Swiss voted against residence permits for workers, not tourists.
3 months permit = beggars + professional criminals have free reign.
So yeah, this vote has extremely much to do with it. They voted against free movement, you know. As a EU citizen you have the right to be 3 months in a country.
Montmorency
02-16-2014, 04:41
I don't understand. Most Roma don't travel, and most Roma who do travel do so within states or regions. It makes no sense to expect an influx of jobless vagrants from Romania at any point in the future, regardless of legislation.
HoreTore
02-16-2014, 04:45
3 months permit = beggars + professional criminals have free reign.
So yeah, this vote has extremely much to do with it. They voted against free movement, you know. As a EU citizen you have the right to be 3 months in a country.
No, they did not vote against free movement as such, they voted against allowing residence for foreign workers. The 3 months tourist permission will remain as before. A traveling beggar/thief is not affected by this vote in the slightest.
EDIT: I'm curious, have you actually read the text of the bill you're talking about?
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 04:47
I don't understand. Most Roma don't travel, and most Roma who do travel do so within states or regions. It makes no sense to expect an influx of jobless vagrants from Romania at any point in the future, regardless of legislation.
This is either the most brilliant or stupid thing I have read yet on these boards. Kudos!!
Montmorency
02-16-2014, 04:53
And you've read a lot.
I don't understand. Most Roma don't travel, and most Roma who do travel do so within states or regions. It makes no sense to expect an influx of jobless vagrants from Romania at any point in the future, regardless of legislation.
Not in Switzerland since they were clever enough to not join the international-socialism, but thanks to The international-socialism welfare/healthcare-tourism is a pretty big problem here in the Netherlands.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
02-16-2014, 21:15
I think I'll show this thread to my Romanian friend - she might register just to "explain" to you why a Romanian is completely different to a Roma.
Seamus Fermanagh
02-16-2014, 21:30
Switzerland must be banned from these forums. My fellow orgahs, if you happen to be Swiss please cancel your account. Thank you.
Swiss do not acknowledge that accounts exist -- all part of the service.
HoreTore
02-16-2014, 21:35
I think I'll show this thread to my Romanian friend - she might register just to "explain" to you why a Romanian is completely different to a Roma.
Plenty of Roma are Romanians - even though Romanians have a tendency to consider them as sub-humans.
Anyway, who is confusing Roma and Romanians in this thread?
Kadagar_AV
02-16-2014, 22:33
I think I'll show this thread to my Romanian friend - she might register just to "explain" to you why a Romanian is completely different to a Roma.
I'm with HT here. I think we all know gypsies and Romanians isn't the same thing.
However, if you open up your border with Romania, you will get a ****load of gypsies :shrug:
Montmorency
02-17-2014, 21:27
Interesting (http://rt.com/news/switzerland-eu-immigration-law-382/):
The voter turnout of 56 percent was reportedly the highest in decades.
A telling mark against Swiss direct democracy?
HoreTore
02-17-2014, 21:34
Interesting (http://rt.com/news/switzerland-eu-immigration-law-382/)
What the hell? An immediate freeze of higher education exchange, ie. the lifeblood of any high-tech(and therefore high-profit) business? If this can be confirmed to be true by a non-BS source, it looks like Switzerland is in for a slow, agonizing industrial death if they are determined to stay the course.
If this can be confirmed to be true by a non-BS source
Check the link again, it's from a reputable russian news source.
HoreTore
02-17-2014, 22:34
Check the link again, it's from a reputable russian news source.
In Soviet Russia, link checks you!
Seamus Fermanagh
02-17-2014, 23:09
In Soviet Russia, link checks you!
Careful now, HT, or you will have to keep checking your sandwiches for Polonium.
Tellos Athenaios
02-18-2014, 01:55
In Soviet Russia, link checks you!
And 'phones' the results back home to Utah.
Fisherking
02-18-2014, 09:54
Check the link again, it's from a reputable russian news source.
LOL, No!
He means approved news.
Meantime seems this place has its own troubles.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2014/02/10/defeated-by-norway-one-womans-tale/
The comment section is priceless.
HoreTore
02-18-2014, 11:15
I actually mean news that aren't approved by Putin's spinmasters.
As for the article, I lol'ed. Communications degree, ha! Get an education in something useful, you hippie.
Oh yeah, it's always better to have news that are biased towards our style of corruption...
Communication is a vital part of our lives that people fail at regularly even here on this message board. How is that not a useful thing to study?
Fisherking
02-18-2014, 11:44
Face it. Those Norwegians were not about to hire some nonconformist scum with a suntan. Ha!
Two view points:
inquisitor
They don't like foreigners here that are talented and make them look bad.
You are not welcome here.
They will let you die.
inquisitor
You are a foreigner so you must be incompetent, incapable, stupid and lacking in some capacity that does not meet the requirements of the master race.
You are an educated, talented, experienced, worldly free-thinking, self-motivated foreigner so you are a threat to the status quo and the culture and are not welcome.
Tom Just Olsen
No. I am not comfortable with the open borders we have to EU countries. As I have said - over and over again here: I want Norway to cancel the EEA and the Schengen agreement with EU. And just have an ordinary trade agreement. More like what the Swiss have and have decided to do in accordance with their latest referendum.
That means not that I am against immigrants. But that immigration must happen on our terms. Not terms forced upon us by EU. These terms will be favourable for Norway - and thus favourable for those immigrants that are serious about contributing to our society.
I have nothing against foreigners that really want to emigrate to Norway, live here and contribute to our society by paying taxes etc. Immigrants that see the advantages of the egalitarian welfare state we have tried to build up, will find it comfortable. They are more than welcome.
HoreTore
02-18-2014, 12:52
Oh yeah, it's always better to have news that are biased towards our style of corruption...
Communication is a vital part of our lives that people fail at regularly even here on this message board. How is that not a useful thing to study?
Because you can find a person with a communications degree standing on every street corner in Norway.
Design and communication related degrees means educating yourself to unemployment.
Because you can find a person with a communications degree standing on every street corner in Norway.
Design and communication related degrees means educating yourself to unemployment.
And why is that? Every divorce just happens because there was noone with a communication degree to prevent it.
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