View Full Version : What good are Crusades?
Ok, to be honest, I've never used them. They are expensive and seem to be rather ineffective - they get to their destination undepowered, rarely capture anything, and when they do, you have trouble getting reinforcements to them. So what am I missing here? Why spend 2,000 florins on a doomed attack? Or does the loot from pillaging provinces along the way, plus taking troops from the neighboring enemies outweigh the cost?
Grifman
Because its fun and in GA you will get points for succesful crusades.
Well:
1) It may be fun, but I conquered the the Frogs while they were they were launching crusades, so I guess it wasn't "fun" for them - even "fun" needs to be cost effective http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
2) They are so rarely successful that it doesn't seem worth the effort - and are florins better spent on building up your military.
Grifman
Swisspike
11-10-2002, 20:32
Short Crusade primer follows: Comments welcome.
Maybe you are missing the point. Don't go for the 80 yard home run ball. Set it up with smaller passes (Crusades).
As the French, about 1160, I have launched 4 Crusades. The first was for Nicea, a limited objective Crusade. Used as a waypoint for further Crusades.
After this initial success....made easier as there were only friendly nations to pass through....I built a port, built the necessary sea infrastructure to support the next Crusade.
This next one went straight to Nicea, and took Antioch three turns later. I did have to heavily reinforce this Crusade with French troops. No problem.
I attacked and conquered all territories from Nicea to Antioch, built Churches and Monasteries, and heavily converted the population to Christianity. Took about 30 years.
Now, I am launching the REAL Crusades, to take back the Holy Lands. There are TONS of points available for successful Crusades into Palestine, etc.
My gameplay for this campaign is geared towards generating and supporting Crusades. This is tremendous fun.
It is 1161, I own what is historically called France, and the British Isles. (Gotta have those Welsh Longbow, and the Scottish Highlanders!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif I own some of Spain, only cause they attacked me.
One last thing...there is a 4 yearleadtime to build a Crusade. Start building the next Crusade just before the old one finishes. Save you some time.
Keep up your zeal in the territories you wish the Crusade to pass through. It will get big in a hurry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Another thing to remember about crusades is you can add units to them. Don't rely on the units that a crusade will pick up as it moves to its destination.
I started playing a new campaign as the spanish Friday (GA, Hard). After driving the Almohads (sp) out of Morocco I was ready to start sending Crusades. I built not only a crusade, but also a 16 unit army with general. Once the crusade was built I added the army to it and sent it off towards Tunisia. I also started building another crusade.
Once the first crusade had accomplished it's objective (easily done with a full army) I launched the second crusade towards Algeria. No army needed to be built for this one as I simply added the army from the previous crusade to it once the current crusade reached Tunisia.
I repeated this all the way through Edessa. Not only do I reap the benifit of all those GA Crusade points (about 16 I think) but I end up with excellent Influence on my King, and a horde of Crusader units.
As mentioned, don't go for the big score way in the back of the enemy lines right off. Take it one step at a time, adding whatever units are needed to insure success of that crusade.
Magnum
Another way to make Crusades useful is to get your shipping routes in place first... I generally like to get a path as close as possible to my target before I send the crusade off... that way you don't have to fight your way through 10 enemy provinces before reaching your goal. You also lose less men to desertions that way.
So the units still desert in the new patch?
Swisspike
11-10-2002, 22:43
Yes, the units will still desert, as appropriate to real life.
I have read two good books on the Crusades in the last month or two, and it was VERY common for the second and third sons of noble families to attempt to carve out their own little empires.
Their interest wasn't in returning the Holy Lands to Christianity, but loot, pillage and plunder.
Heh heh, when President Bush mentioned it was a "crusade" against Saddam Hussein a couple of months ago, the Arabs went a little nuts. Heh heh. Bad memories.
smoothdragon
11-10-2002, 23:24
Crusades can be used an offensive weapon against neighboring Catholics. For example, in my current campaign I noticed the French were lining up 4 stacks against my Spanish provinces Castille and Valencia. So I called a crusade against some random Russian province and sent the crusade right through the neighboring French provinces. I then parked the crusade right in their town for about 5 years and drained them of men. Then I moved onto the next province and drained him too. The crusade then went on its merry way and I had enough men at this point to launch a "real" war against the French. The 1500 florins needed for the Crusade was well worth it, and can be used to even weaken the English island by sending a Crusade to Scotland and parking it in Wessex http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
Bob the Insane
11-10-2002, 23:38
Outside of 'fun' , the use of crusades to to provide some of the best Catholic units in the game, crusader knights and order footmen...
The most effect way to gain these is to raise Crusades against short range targets and send pently of good troops with them. They are especially useful when one of the other Catholic factions get excommunicated.. Send them off rapid fire to take provinces and gain the good troops while doing it..
Post-patch it is especially useful because getting hold of Order Footmen during the early period can really tip the balance in your favour..
MizuKokami
11-11-2002, 02:53
the one thing i don't like about crusades. i wonder why when my men join another kings crusade, and that king succeeds in gaining the crusades objective, why don't my men return home? lets say germany marches a crusade against novograd. the crusade comes through poland and grabs 25% of my polish armies, and continues to novograd and wins. wait a minute, these are polish nationals with wives and children at home, now they become german nationals? maybe their wives are ugly and their children stupid, but hey, my men where loyal to me, if not their wives. the german emperor ought to at least pay me for the equipment they got from my men, if not at least alow them to return home.
Brown Wolf
11-11-2002, 04:10
Quote[/b] (Grifman @ Nov. 10 2002,12:44)]Ok, to be honest, I've never used them. They are expensive and seem to be rather ineffective - they get to their destination undepowered, rarely capture anything, and when they do, you have trouble getting reinforcements to them. So what am I missing here? Why spend 2,000 florins on a doomed attack? Or does the loot from pillaging provinces along the way, plus taking troops from the neighboring enemies outweigh the cost?
Grifman
The crusades, in my opinion, are somewhat useful. Since I add a virtual horde to my crusade, they are not always doomed or underpowered. But I have had them fail before.
[RDH] Spetz Natz
11-11-2002, 09:10
My first crusade was a rousing success (and I suck at this game LOL).
1300 English troops straight away to Toulouse with no looking back. Lost only 200 soldiers against 1100 Almohads
(they lost about 600 in the battle).
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
G0THIC-Lobster
11-11-2002, 10:54
Its fun as heck and you could go pass some fraction that is in your way and get to the destination and not to mention...FREE UNITS http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Fearless
11-11-2002, 18:23
Great for reducing other factions units that are threatening your border provinces.
In my new Eng hard campaign, I have launched 4 crusades so far. The first one was to Palestine and a complete failure. It left from Wessex and I had hoped to go through French Flanders. Instead it went up to the Baltic sea and then south. It was massacred by the first Muslems I met.
The next three were very successful. I launched one to Brandenburg from Toulouse. Picked up huge numbers of French and Germans before reaching Brandenburg. The rebels didn't even fight. The third crusade was to Naples, launched from Ile de France. The army was about 2000 Germans and Italians which allowed me to take Naples and then using the same army, take Sicily. The last was to Livonia again from Ile de France. More Germans and Poles and again no resistence from the Livonians.
I still want to launch a successful crusade to the middle east some day. I have a difficult time doing it before the time limit of 1205.
i use them regularly to destroy other catholic factions border provinces,and to take good provinces like constantinople and antioch.
So can you crusade not just against Muslims and Orthodox but rebels also? And can you crusade against excommunicated factions?
Grifman
Well, I once had a rebellion go through and I sat around with a Cross, so naturally I tried to send the Crusade there... Couldn't So you must make sure the rebels are pagan or something else, just not Catholic.
The ability to crusade against Rebels is dependant upon whether or not they are Catholic Rebels. Easiest way to find out whom you can crusade against is simply pick up the crusade marker and scroll around the map. All territories that you can launch a crusade against will be highlighted.
Magnum
Prodigal
11-12-2002, 15:53
All about the challene of fighting with a mixed bag of troops from all over the place imo.
Also you could do what the AI seems to do: use a Crusade to garrison one of your own provinces. Why else does an AI Crusade army sit in one of its own faction's provinces for years on end, gradually losing guys, and never ever even trying to attack its 'target'? I reckon the AI takes advantage of a speedily-raised army - some of it recruited from rivals - after all, it doesn't actually HAVE to attack its target.
I used a crusade last night. I started a new campaign as Spain. In about 1105 I crusaded the Almo in Cordoba. They had most of 2 stacks and they all died. I used the crusaders to take all but one territory from them. This tactic (which I learned from the AI) can really jump start a campaign. Next up, Egypt
Hulegu I wouldn't do that... The Crusades loses troops quite fast, even in high zeal provinces. So quite quickly you will sit with 16-20 units with 5-6 men in each and then a lot of peasants.
I just hate how those Order troops desert the Crusade, they and the troops you yourself insert should have much higher dedication to it. They would only begin to desert after the Crusade had been sitting still for a few years, but do so at a high rate.
I have experienced something very strange, pre-patch though. But I had an English Crusade pass through my HRE domain, to my dismay it soaked up my best general. As it happened that general was a Royal general, he took over the Crusade naturally. And after the success of the Crusade he was the local govenor and got a title...
But I did see that he retained his royal crown next to the picture. Did this mean he was now an English Royal general? I would find it very funny if the English managed to get King Otto I... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Oh man, I love a good Crusade
Playing as the English, or probably as anyone European, there's nothing more annoying than that part of the game when the Almoheds in Spain are like the Hydra. Destroy one army, two more take it's place.
However, thanks to my successful Crusades to Antioch, Edessa, Tripoli and Palestine, the Alhomeds now find themselves in the position I've been in many a time before; i.e. The borders are absoloutely teeming with enemy Armies (specifically, me).
I'm now gleefully dismantling the Alhomeds from their arse end. You should see their Leigions in Spain trying to leg it back to Egypt, like a gaggle of headless chickens.
Ahhh, revenge is sweet. Crusades are sweet.
Killing all prisoners is sweet.
It's quite handy having a strong foothold on the other side of the map.
Make the most of your Crusades
Azrael
(My name is Azrael, and I'm a Dreadaholic)
(I just can't stop pushing that button... kill... all... prisoners).
Brown Wolf
11-13-2002, 02:45
Quote[/b] (Swisspike @ Nov. 10 2002,15:43)]Yes, the units will still desert, as appropriate to real life.
I have read two good books on the Crusades in the last month or two, and it was VERY common for the second and third sons of noble families to attempt to carve out their own little empires.
Their interest wasn't in returning the Holy Lands to Christianity, but loot, pillage and plunder.
Heh heh, when President Bush mentioned it was a "crusade" against Saddam Hussein a couple of months ago, the Arabs went a little nuts. Heh heh. Bad memories.
Indeed, most people insist that the Crusades were ineffective and did not really hurt the islamic empires. I was surprised to see such a big fit thrown when Mr. Bush used the Crusade reference (note: for a while it seemed ppl wanted to use jihad in there speak, PC i guess).
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 12 2002,13:49)]The Crusades loses troops quite fast, even in high zeal provinces. So quite quickly you will sit with 16-20 units with 5-6 men in each and then a lot of peasants.
That's exactly the point why I don't lauch crusade (unless I have to in GA mode). I have had my under strenght Knights of Santiago beaten by Kat and Armenian HC or Ghulam Cav and Saharan Cav, under strenght Order Foot broke before Saracen Inf. or Nubian Spearmen.
A bunch of low tech, under strenght units I picked up on the way can't replace the high tech, expensive core troops that I lost. To avoid desertion, I always have to find the shortest route to the target and it always results in sending the crusade by sea. So why crusade when I can send a regular army (same number of core troops minus the crusade units, minus the junk troops, minus the cost for crusade marker and payment to the Pope) to invade the province without having to worry about desertion (no under strenght units).
Bob the Insane
11-13-2002, 13:00
Thats my tactic now. If you have the necessary chain of ships Crusades become quite profitable. Ensure the Province with the Chapter house has a very high zeal and have you core troops for the crusade stood ready in the province. Then target the Crusade far away and add your core trrops and send the crusade to it's target all in one turn, very effective.
Second use of Crusades is not to succeed, so you don't add any troops of your own, just to sap opposing factions of their troops...
The_Dude
11-13-2002, 14:04
Crusade can be very usefull to get some money, it cost 1000 to produce+ additional units about 2000-2500, but when it goes on bizantin land or turc or egyptian you will get some money for taken provinces
Yesterday a launch my first crusade to take Tripoly (French GA: Krack of the crusader ), I am allied to the Bizantin, as I was get in to is land, I tought it will start a war, but nothig hapen, he allowed me to pass into his land, then my crusade arrive in constantinople and loot it 1600 florins won. After I arrived in Turc land, and then the Turc retreat, given me a nice keep to loot, I won again 1500 florins, then I arrived to tripoly and won again 1500 florins So my crusade cost me 2000-2500 and I won 4600 florins... Good to pay the next crusade
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