Special Forces - who is the best?

[Myth]

I was wondering, out of the SF units that we know of, which one can we claim is the best?

For the USA I can name two:

Delta Force and SEAL team 6 (DEVGRU )

SAS for the UK.

Spetznaz (Alpha or Vympel teams) for Russia

Shayetet 13 for Israel

I've been reading incredible things about DEVGRU and Deltaforce. Also downright scary things for Spetznaz training. And a prevailing opinion online that SAS is still the best (not sure why, apart from the success rate of applicants - only 2% make it). However, DEVGRU are chosen from the other SEAL teams who are already elite, and Delta Force are chosen from the Green Berets and Rangers. Spetznaz have to endure inhumane training which is outlawed in the USA. They have to learn to like pain. Don't know much about the Israelis but seeing as how effective Mossad is, I cannot dismiss them.

[Sarmatian]

I don't know about special forces, but my dad could beat up your dad.

[PROVOST]

SASR (AUS)



https://s27.postimg.org/gsgp3crmb/AUS_SASR.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[Myth]

I don't know about special forces, but my dad could beat up your dad.

Hey, we have a babe thread. It's what boys do. Maybe I should start a thread about "10 things to say to your guy to get him to do the dishes" or something?


SASR (AUS)



https://s27.postimg.org/gsgp3crmb/AUS_SASR.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

Please do tell us about them.

[PROVOST]

SASR (AUS) is based off of the English SAS model and uses the same methodology overall.

Their deployment history differs of course historically but they are the "Tip of the Spear" type of Special Ops Regiment.

Here's their official website -

http://www.army.gov.au/Who-we-are/Divisions-and-Brigades/Special-Operations-Command/Special-Air-Service-Regiment

Their origins come from the unit known as Z Special Unit from WW2 period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_Special_Unit

[Fragony]

I'd reckon they are all good

[Husar]

Spetznas win hands down, Alfa is more of a police special forces group as far as I am aware, the russian type of SWAT but with more vodka.

[Beskar]

I would rate 'best' based on the success of missions. Unfortunately, we do not know those statistics.

[Myth]

From what I've been reading so far, It seems to me that Delta Force are the elite of the elite. The mere fact that they are not officially recognized as existing by the US government tells you something.

Not sure how to judge who the best are - they are all obviously vastly superior to regular troops, not to mention civilians. And information on secret operations is rarely, if ever, disclosed publicly. If anyone happens across an interesting read or video, please share. Here is something:

"SEALs stand for Sea Air and land Specialists they are very dynamic, they are always doing something new, right now SEALs operate every where and are a very elite special operations group, SEALs do Direct action missions, Hostage rescue, counter terrorism but at its core it was created for direct action, in and out missions, get in, get the job done, get out but they also do other stuff if needed. Regular SEALs have a Tier 2 designation.

Green berets, also know as Special Forces have a lot of roles too, but at its core they are force multipliers, they go in a war zone, blend in with the local population and form an army, I like to call them elite teachers, but they don't just do that kind of stuff, you can check it out on Wikipedia, I'm just telling the simple version. Green berets have a Tier 2 designation.

Delta Force is currently one of the worlds premier counter terrorism unit/Special missions unit, they are one of the top dogs of the world. They are recruit primarily from the Green berets the Rangers,these men are hand picked among the best of the best out of those units, and attend a selection process, where about 95% that try fail, and those that fail are already a very elite caliber of warrior, it's all very challenging and stressful, those that make it till the end and officially are Delta Force operators, still have to prove themselves because in those first 5 years they are looked at as the new guy, and still have to train and train and train, it's like being in your job 24/7, even when you back home having dinner with you family you can be called for an op, you have to pack your stuff, say bye to everybody, not tell them where your going and 8 hours later you are doing a black operation, In some **** country, on the other side of the world. Delta had some problems in the beginning just like DEVGRU but right now both Delta force and DEVGRU are running like well oiled machines. Delta Force has a Tier 1 designation.

Just a bonus, DEVGRU
You probably already know about them. DEVGRU recruits from the regular SEAL Team and they recruit the best to go through their selection process, once they pass they go to green team, etc etc, same story as Delta Force, but their drop out numbers is lower due to the way they were trained, their training gave them a lot of metal strength, just a regular SEAL is already a very very very elite caliber of warrior, now there's a culture difference between Delta and DEVGRU, Since DEVGRU operators come from the regular SEAL teams, and since the SEAL teams are all about direct action, hostage rescue and what not the government and the Navy Use them more for those types of missions, like all the hostage rescues missions you heard of and the mission to kill Bin Laden, while Delta came more from green berets which are all about winning hearts and minds, training people etc and that's why they aren't used in to do the types of missions DEVGRU does. But Delta also does the type of missions DEVGRU does and DEVGRU also does the types of missions Delta does. Both have a strong relationship with the SAS the SBS, and the SASR, they train together, fight together and learn from each other making them the best of the best together both at the same level although DEVGRU and maybe Delta Force have an extra edge over them because of the unlimited amounts of cash they have, they can buy and build everything they want and get the best gear you know, all the classified cool stuff, everything, weapons, vehicle, scopes etc and are able to get more advanced training, due to the crazy amounts of cash.DEVGRU has a Tier 1 designation, they are also the elite of the elite.

For more information on them, pick up, SEAL Team six memoirs of an elite Navy SEAL sniper, No Easy Day by Mark Owen, Inside Delta Force by Eric haney, and Fearless by Eric Blehm.
Check these out http://www.military.com/video/forces/seal-teams/secrets-of-seal-team-6-part-1/1163917907001/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=vzHqqTmSnC0 ""

[Sarmatian]

Even that doesn't help as the missions were different.

What we can safely say is they are all good, that they're given good training and expensive gadgets. Beyond that, we don't know a thing.

[Myth]

Well, Deltaforce and DEVGRU have Tier 1 designation so they get the toughest, most secret missions out there. We don't know anything about Delta missions. We know that DEVGRU whacked Bin Laden, the operation was stellar. Check the first link, they talk about it about 1/3 of the way.

Interesting details on operations in the further videos. Check out from min. 3 and onwards:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PmgVlGk3_gQ

Another interesting vid to watch


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=59fL6ej_B-I

[Husar]

Spetznas are so secret, noone really knows whether it's Spetznas, Spetznaz, Speznaz, Spetsnaz, Spetsnas, ....

And they can rap better:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixiH5zXJpEQ

Delta Force are just amateurs in comparison who need to leak propaganda to the military channel because noone wants to join them otherwise.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I was wondering, out of the SF units that we know of, which one can we claim is the best?... *highlight not in original


I have a sneaking suspicion that the best are the ones who do NOT meet that criteria.

[Fragony]

Just for awesome's sake, a documentorary gone wrong

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bX01miySwkI

Also pretty cool, somali pirates http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3uHT0qsYxfw

[Brenus]

The best Special Forces are the ones you never heard about them...

[Sarmatian]

Spetznas win hands down, Alfa is more of a police special forces group as far as I am aware, the russian type of SWAT but with more vodka.


Spetznas are so secret, noone really knows whether it's Spetznas, Spetznaz, Speznaz, Spetsnaz, Spetsnas, ....

And they can rap better:


Ok, that was funny. You get "thanks" twice and I officially declare you a humorous person even though you're German.

[Myth]

To be fair, the latin alphabet can't quite capture the Ц sound in slavic languages. It can be spelled as TZ, Z, C, TS, or any combination. The last sound is З which is most definitely Z. So it's either Spetsnaz or Spetznaz, both work well.

Anyone seen this movie? Employing active SEALS to play the parts seems quite interesting to me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnlPgo9TaGo


Also, this is an interesting read http://theweek.com/article/index/250750/how-america-decides-which-missions-to-give-seal-team-six

[Kagemusha]

Special forces are overrated. They are light infantry that cant hold shite. They have their role but are far from being Kings of battlefield.

EDIT: With second thought. I should not have even posted in this thread,i am just an reserve staff sergeant of mechanized infantry in Finnish army and never saw actual battle and hope God never will.. Still i think that the toughest infantry in any army are the breakthrough forces like Marines in US and British army or mechanized formations of most other armies. These guys are not supposed to dance around the enemy, but break it...Sorry my French..and i adore the French.:bow:

[Myth]

Ugh. Special Forces. I swear if one more stupid movie about the SEALs comes out I'll puke. You'd think operators were the only people deploying if you just went by Hollywood. In reality they deploy less (well, for less time anyway) and they enjoy amenities the average grunt doesn't get. They're like the star quarterbacks of the military world: good, but kind of overpaid (well, over equipped anyway.. the extra money dont go to the troops) and overrated.

The biggest reason they are used is for secrecy, not because they're all that good. When you're kidnapping people or popping them in the middle of the night, best if its SOCOM troops with Top Secret or higher than a grunt who might decide to YouTube the whole thing.

Oh come on you can't really think that. Based on their section process alone you will know that they get the creme of the crop. Just how good the crop is depends on where they're recruiting from. DF is getting recruits from the Rangers, Green Berets and the 82nd Airborne, and a very, very small percentage make it to the troop. Do really think spec ops soldiers are only marginally better trained/conditioned than grunts? The budget they get is absurd, and the gadgets are as well, so on that at least we agree.

If you watch the documentary on SEAL team 6 you'll see how many guys drop out during the training. Only 1 in 5 makes it to the end. That's 1 in 5 out of already a very high profile group of candidates. If your average US grunt was on that level I think you would have conquered the galaxy by now (interstellar travel notwithstanding)

Now, I'm all against stupid Hollywood propaganda and misinformation. Starting with swords making a *wwwhhiiingggg* sound when pulled out of a scabbard. But this thread wasn't meant for movies, it was meant for real information and actually I managed to get some out of it, so there's that. Also, no one is trying to diminish the importance of conventional troops. Not me anyway. But a question of whether the grunts or the Marine corps are better is pointless IMO, while a question of who is better between DEVGRU and Delta Force is pretty legit.


Special forces are overrated. They are light infantry that cant hold shite. They have their role but are far from being Kings of battlefield.

They're not meant to hold shite as far as I know. It's like saying a B2 stealth bomber is useless because it can't haul as much as a C-130 Hercules.

[Kagemusha]

They're not meant to hold shite as far as I know. It's like saying a B2 stealth bomber is useless because it can't haul as much as a C-130 Hercules.

Again.I can only talk from my limited point of view. Special forces as they have been called ever since Green berets in Vietnam are basically small arms tactical units or glorified scouts. These are guys who are more in class of athletes compared to normal people, but in civilian life are athletes somehow superior? People should not be judged by their abilities but their merits. They are not supermen, but they have their key role in most of military actions. Still they eat lead like rest of us, most of time lack any AT capability. Dont have indirect fire support.In other words are not head on soldiers.

[Myth]

They get the job done. The job often requires a cohesive unit of professionals with various skills at their disposal. A small team that knows one another very well and trust each other in their individual skills is what is needed. Can the SEALS storm Baghdad and take it? No. Can they set up explosive charges on the defending artillery units to make the conventional troop's lives easier? Yes. Which one is better or more important? Neither. But how hard would you evaluate the potential candidate for the first job compared to the second job? (this is a bad example because you'd just call in an airstrike on the artillery, but I was making a point)

Again, the point of this thread was to discuss what we know about SF units globally and particularly between the two hailing from the USA. It was not meant to imply that these men are supermen or that they somehow make other troops useless. These men ARE superior in their skill set however. How else would you make your choice? Out of 100,000 candidates you get how many guys? 1000? Less even? They will have something making them stand out, and that's that.

[Kagemusha]

They get the job done. The job often requires a cohesive unit of professionals with various skills at their disposal. A small team that knows one another very well and trust each other in their individual skills is what is needed. Can the SEALS storm Baghdad and take it? No. Can they set up explosive charges on the defending artillery units to make the conventional troop's lives easier? Yes. Which one is better or more important? Neither. But how hard would you evaluate the potential candidate for the first job compared to the second job? (this is a bad example because you'd just call in an airstrike on the artillery, but I was making a point)



Again, the point of this thread was to discuss what we know about SF units globally and particularly between the two hailing from the USA. It was not meant to imply that these men are supermen or that they somehow make other troops useless. These men ARE superior in their skill set however. How else would you make your choice? Out of 100,000 candidates you get how many guys? 1000? Less even? They will have something making them stand out, and that's that.

Yes.Now we are running around in circles in this debate.How do you compare special forces of different countries or even within certain military, as their job is not to fight or kill other special forces. There is no comparison, only opinions. You can witness from any extreme performance, there is very little difference between individuals in competitive sports, less to say units.No country has some certified secret for military training. So ultimately the differences for the tasks they are set to do are negligent unless we are dealing with armies that are really out to date.

So does speak the best special force units today are those that have most experience without breaking coherence (aka not making the most experienced ones trainers), but not inherently because of their training but because of their experience.

[Myth]

My only point is that I think a thread debating which "elite units" are the best is dumb. Nobody here is qualified to say anything for certain, and the mere fact that this thread exists makes me sad.

Yeah, but it doesn't hurt to ask and debate. Sometimes you could get lucky. Meanwhile, here is the drill sergeant scene from FMJ to cheer you up: /watch?v=71Lft6EQh-Y

[Husar]

Gelly Cube is obviously jelly...

The way I understand this thread we are talking about the kind of Special Forces who are actually trained to do combat missions behind enemy lines to actually kill people and stuff. Because as has been mentioned, a lot of them, at least in the US military, are meant to do other things entirely and are not weapon experts. The first Green Berets were largely chosen for their social and language skills etc. Of course you might send a weapons expert to train locals on AK-47s or so but even that is not always required.

I read a book about Green Berets and it has some interesting info. Among the few parts I haven't forgotten was that they were used in Vietnam to train some mountain tribes who then fought the Vietcong with their native weapons, i.e. bows and blowpipes (not the british ones). They were actually really effective as they knew the area well and the Green Berets lived and worked with them. Then the US government wanted to get out and the south vietnamese army was supposed to take over. Unfortunately they didn't regard the mountain people very highly and treated them really bad and lost their support as a result. The border became as porous as it was before and we all know how well the war ended for the south.

Now I'm not sure how much better the Spetsnaz are at this task but as long as they're not dealing with gay mountain people, I believe they can do a better job.

[Myth]

Yes.Now we are running around in circles in this debate.How do you compare special forces of different countries or even within certain military, as their job is not to fight or kill other special forces. There is no comparison, only opinions. You can witness from any extreme performance, there is very little difference between individuals in competitive sports, less to say units.No country has some certified secret for military training. So ultimately the differences for the tasks they are set to do are negligent unless we are dealing with armies that are really out to date.

So does speak the best special force units today are those that have most experience without breaking coherence (aka not making the most experienced ones trainers), but not inherently because of their training but because of their experience.

Looking at the way they recruit and whom they recruit from can tell you a lot.

[Kagemusha]

Looking at the way they recruit and whom they recruit from can tell you a lot.

So are we going to eugenics next? The stuff what it takes, superior humans.We really dont want to go down that slope do we my friend? This thread is just funny.Sorry.. :)

[Myth]

So are we going to eugenics next? The stuff what it takes, superior humans.We really dont want to go down that slope do we my friend? This thread is just funny.Sorry.. :)

Huh? Sorry, I'm not following. Recruiting the best out of established SF forces, and also requiring experience makes you better than the guys recruiting raw boys. Not sure where you got all that eugenics stuff. Anyway, for people who think this thread is funny or stupid, you can stop posting in it and quietly feel superior. Isn't that the point of the backroom? :laugh4: I got what I wanted anyway.

[Kagemusha]

Huh? Sorry, I'm not following. Recruiting the best out of established SF forces, and also requiring experience makes you better than the guys recruiting raw boys. Not sure where you got all that eugenics stuff. Anyway, for people who think this thread is funny or stupid, you can stop posting in it and quietly feel superior. Isn't that the point of the backroom? :laugh4: I got what I wanted anyway.

I just thought that any nation have recruiting pool basically of any adult males they have and knew no restrictions for such and about raw boys. It is known fact that boys aka 18-25 make the best grunts because men tend to have more things to worry rather then glory, unless they have made it their focus in life. I think we just miss understood each other.~:)

[Husar]

Its less about feeling superior and more about finding this hero worship crap repugnant. I'll leave you to it though, carry on.

The jelly is strong in this one.

Feeling superior and worshipping heroes is the essence of major anglo culture. It is this mislead sense of superiority that makes Russians and their Spetsnaz so awesome because they actually are the typical anglo's wet dream of manly men who are tough and rough and stuff.

You see, even the military channel finds Spetsnaz awesome as long as they're killing brown people in burkas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb78rIgvOHc

You heard that? They train with methods that would be illegal in other militaries.
America may call waterboarding torture, Spetsnaz call it breakfast.

[Myth]

Its less about feeling superior and more about finding this hero worship crap repugnant. I'll leave you to it though, carry on.

For me it's not hero worship. I don't worship Usain Bolt but I admire him for being the fastest sprinter in the world. War is not the olympics of course, but I'll ask you this: given the chance, would you disband these "primadonna"elite special forces units? Let's say you get to be the Secretary of Defence or something. Would you reassign their budget in favour of the conventional troops and remove them from the armed forces? Do you imagine a situation where it's more strategically advantageous to your country to NOT have operatives on the level of Delta Force and the SEAL teams? What about troop morale as a whole?

Take the elimination of Osama for example. Did that not boost morale through the roof? Whom would you entrust such an op to if you were in a position to make that decision?

[Sarmatian]

They do have their uses, but the typical hero worship is undeserved, especially Hollywood crap in which they're represented as superhuman. Throw them behind enemy lines with two nails and a piece of rope and they'll build tanks, helicopters, airplanes and a makeshift base. After that they'll destroy ten enemy divisions, stop a nuclear warhead from launching, capture a dictator and be home for lunch. At least one of them will then quit the army and devote his life to his girlfriend who he dumped just prior to the mission. At least until the sequel in which he will again be recruited and he won't be able to refuse because of his sense of duty.

In the case of Osama mission you mentioned, think about what they really did - they crossed into another country illegally (creating a diplomatic incident) and performed an assassination (creating another diplomatic incident). The effect - Bin Laden is now dead, hurrah!!! Unfortunately, the terrorist organization is still alive and well and it falls again to the grunts on the ground to deal with it in the only way possible, by cutting the funding and taking away their manpower and support, either by direct combat or by winning hearts and minds of the population.

[Myth]

They do have their uses, but the typical hero worship is undeserved, especially Hollywood crap in which they're represented as superhuman. Throw them behind enemy lines with two nails and a piece of rope and they'll build tanks, helicopters, airplanes and a makeshift base. After that they'll destroy ten enemy divisions, stop a nuclear warhead from launching, capture a dictator and be home for lunch. At least one of them will then quit the army and devote his life to his girlfriend who he dumped just prior to the mission. At least until the sequel in which he will again be recruited and he won't be able to refuse because of his sense of duty.

In the case of Osama mission you mentioned, think about what they really did - they crossed into another country illegally (creating a diplomatic incident) and performed an assassination (creating another diplomatic incident). The effect - Bin Laden is now dead, hurrah!!! Unfortunately, the terrorist organization is still alive and well and it falls again to the grunts on the ground to deal with it in the only way possible, by cutting the funding and taking away their manpower and support, either by direct combat or by winning hearts and minds of the population.

I daresay the bolded part is taken care of by Special Forces. The Green Berets do exactly this, I posted it once and Husar also did. The Rangers and Green Berets are the ones who handle this. You can't fight a war on terror (it's a stupid name but bear with me) with tanks and grunts. The movies are stupid yes, but the OP on Osama achieved what it was supposed to do. Diplomatic incidents don't matter much to a country as powerful as the USA, while eliminating this rogue CIA trained agent was a priority. The pure profit in public opinion was worth it. My point was not whether it was a good idea or not to kill Osama or what it achieved, but when presented with the need to carry out such an operation you have to assign it to someone. Who is that someone if not the Special Forces units?

[Husar]

Take the elimination of Osama for example. Did that not boost morale through the roof? Whom would you entrust such an op to if you were in a position to make that decision?

The SAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Air_Command) perhaps?

Everybody loves to watch a carpet(/nuclear) bombing except from directly below.

Oh and, the Delta Force are Green Berets because Green Berets is not a unit but an umbrella term for people who used to wear....green berets....which were only worn by special operators. There was a bit of a ruckus lately when other US army units got black berets or something because berets alone were usually reserved to somewhat special people who kill their enemies in especially effective ways.
It was seen as an attempt to boost the morale of common throwaway soldiers that could be to the detriment of the more sophisticated princesses of death who had earned their berets through merit.

The thing about berets is that when you stab someone from behind you're a despicable coward but when you do it wearing a ghilly suit and a beret, then you're awesome. That's why berets should only be given to people who earned them through merit because one has to earn the right not to be a coward.

[Ironside]

If two SF teams meets, who win? The defender, always the defender. Why?

Because even if the attacker wins, they failed their mission. All SF teams are close enough that the winning team will always take losses and be delayed enough that any close reinforcements will have time to respond.

And if you're talking about winning the hearts and minds of the population, the most important thing is attitude. Troops that feel genuine and caring is going to do much better than those with a strict military protocol attitude.

[Brenus]

The problem is your view of Special Forces is actually wrong. Special Forces are not going behind enemy lines in a killing 1000 a day. The Special Forces dropped from 3000 metres, buried themselves and report, undetected, what they see. For one sniper killing one person, the job of hundreds of teams is spying, and to do that, you avoid to kill at all cost as, for unknown reason, it may alarm the enemies.
I interviewed one of this “special” for my Doctorate on the French Indochina War. He was the LO of the Roger Vandenberghe’s commando, and he just confirm it: Infiltration, location on map, relay to artillery and job done.

Like the paratroopers, the Special Forces are Infantry on Amphetamine. Movies don’t help in understanding this.

The Special Forces have the same effect and for the same reason than a killer going in a cinema and killing 50 unarmed persons. They are ready; they are equipped, when the others are not. The difference of course is in war that the best way to do it: by night, fog and rain, when the enemies are in pyjamas and sleeping (or sleepy, cursing the weather, waiting to go back in a warmish barracks out of the weather).

[Sigurd]

Marinejegerkommdandoen (MJK) is the best special forces in the world, hands down.

[Husar]

If two SF teams meets, who win? The defender, always the defender. Why?

Because even if the attacker wins, they failed their mission. All SF teams are close enough that the winning team will always take losses and be delayed enough that any close reinforcements will have time to respond.

And if you're talking about winning the hearts and minds of the population, the most important thing is attitude. Troops that feel genuine and caring is going to do much better than those with a strict military protocol attitude.

I do not think Spetsnaz would take losses when the Delta Force are defending their barn:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzxVL8WoTwo

Around 1:45 you can see a typical Marinejegerkommdandoen defensive position and what Spetsnaz would do to it.
600m is beyond the effective range of common Delta Force, SAS and SASR weaponry.

I also forgot that some special forces were not mentioned here, either because they do not send enough propaganda material to the military channel or because they are clearly not worth mentioning:

Germany: KSK - became really famous when some of them made a photograph of themselves next to a pile of bones from Afghans they had killed.
Kampfschwimmer - German Navy SEALS equivalent, even the DDR had such a special forces group:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZQkMj3Xi4w

Cuba: Desembarco de Granma - no idea what they have to do with your grandma

France: BSFT:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Evg5umOYI

GCP-CRAP - probably not as bad as the name suggests:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_3v9htEoUM

Commandos Marine

Somalia: PIRATES - mostly known for their ability to board ships completely unnoticed, minor deficits in direct combat:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKA4OXm_IA

There is also a list sorted by countries on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_special_forces_units

[Sigurd]

Around 1:45 you can see a typical Marinejegerkommdandoen defensive position and what Spetsnaz would do to it.

Truth is... Spetsnaz would never know if MJK was close by. Countless examples for this has been confirmed in "joint" exercises. Especially the Brits and the Americans.

[Husar]

Truth is... Spetsnaz would never know if MJK was close by. Countless examples for this has been confirmed in "joint" exercises. Especially the Brits and the Americans.

I've said numerous times now that Spetsnaz are far superior to Americans and Brits, you cannot compare them. Americans also have "Marines" who can't swim according to anecdotal evidence from a trustworthy .org member...

[Sarmatian]

The problem is your view of Special Forces is actually wrong. Special Forces are not going behind enemy lines in a killing 1000 a day. The Special Forces dropped from 3000 metres, buried themselves and report, undetected, what they see. For one sniper killing one person, the job of hundreds of teams is spying, and to do that, you avoid to kill at all cost as, for unknown reason, it may alarm the enemies.
I interviewed one of this “special” for my Doctorate on the French Indochina War. He was the LO of the Roger Vandenberghe’s commando, and he just confirm it: Infiltration, location on map, relay to artillery and job done.

Like the paratroopers, the Special Forces are Infantry on Amphetamine. Movies don’t help in understanding this.

The Special Forces have the same effect and for the same reason than a killer going in a cinema and killing 50 unarmed persons. They are ready; they are equipped, when the others are not. The difference of course is in war that the best way to do it: by night, fog and rain, when the enemies are in pyjamas and sleeping (or sleepy, cursing the weather, waiting to go back in a warmish barracks out of the weather).

Why do you bring sanity to this madness? If you continue it's gonna stop being a peeing contest...


I do not think Spetsnaz would take losses when the Delta Force are defending their barn:


And, as every serious military strategist knows, if you lose the barn, you've lost the war.

[Husar]

Why do you bring sanity to this madness? If you continue it's gonna stop being a peeing contest...

What? All my posts are carefully crafted and well-reasoned and I even forgot to mention the Special Forces of my own country at first.
Just because some people cannot hold back from mentioning the overglorified special forces from their own monkeysphere that does not mean the entire thread is a urination contest.


And, as every serious military strategist knows, if you lose the barn, you've lost the war.

Indeed, ask the French about the Maginot line or the Belgians about losing their frontline barns in 1940.

[Montmorency]

Marinejegerkommdandoen (MJK) is the best special forces in the world, hands down.

I see your Special Norses and raise you...

https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr309/desertSypglass/InfantryGunHorseOffSide.jpg

[Kadagar_AV]

My vote would have to go to the Russians...

Spetnaz come through a training regiment completely different to western ones. They also have at least as much practical experience as the USAnians.

The Alpha Team have made it there through warfare within the Russian army, not training.

[Sigurd]

I've said numerous times now that Spetsnaz are far superior to Americans and Brits, you cannot compare them. Americans also have "Marines" who can't swim according to anecdotal evidence from a trustworthy .org member...
That video you claim is Spetsnaz looks like ordinary troops on a Sunday trip compared to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj0NRFX-GhA

[Husar]

That video you claim is Spetsnaz looks like ordinary troops on a Sunday trip compared to:

Every Hollywood director can show off like that with a bunch of spoiled millionaire actors. Not to forget that the rap is from America, Spetsnaz can make their own rap.

[Sigurd]

Every Hollywood director can show off like that with a bunch of spoiled millionaire actors. Not to forget that the rap is from America, Spetsnaz can make their own rap.
Spoiled actors would never allow their face to be covered up for more than a few seconds in any film. Which incidentally in the Spetznas film, seems not to be an issue. I suspect the Spasmnaz film are filled with spoiled but poor actors (indicated by their horrible fake costumes and toy guns).

[Sarmatian]

Spoiled actors would never allow their face to be covered up for more than a few seconds in any film. Which incidentally in the Spetznas film, seems not to be an issue. I suspect the Spasmnaz film are filled with spoiled but poor actors (indicated by their horrible fake costumes and toy guns).

Every special forces geek know Spetznas aren't the most elite group in Russia. The elite group is so top secret, the members don't even know what it's called. To be even considered, you have to capture a live Siberian tiger female, after threatening her cubs, with your bare hands. The tiger must be unharmed, otherwise Putin comes personally and kills you with martial arts.

After that, you have to capture and domesticate a wild bear, and later you go to battle riding on it.

12353

[Fisherking]

Most countries have too many of these people and depleat their conventional forces. The US may be the worst for this.

They use special ops for jobs that should be using cavalry scouts or a tank-infantry team.

Tell me why the navy needs 2,000 seals when they have marine divisions. Special Ops are support troops not the battle fighters.

The army cuts whole divisions and expands rangers and special forces

Even the Air Force has thousands of them. For what?

They train their infantry to act like special ops when they should be learning basic tactics. Everybody wants to be a ranger.

They blow more money on a ranger company than an armored brigade. I won’t even go to what they do with the more classified organizations.

Elite formations don’t equate to a strong war winning military. The mind set has pretty much been losing the war on terror or any other operations they have tried.

They interest Hollywood and the public and glorify war.

Surgical strikes don’t win guerrilla wars. Denying the fighters a hiding place does. Occupy and pacify. They don’t commit the troops to occupy and they had rectal-cranial-insertion when it came to hearts and minds.

They need to get rid of about 90% of these forces and get back to occupying ground and denying the enemy a place and opportunity to operate.

They fight short sharp actions against poorly defended objectives. If it is heavily defended they get help, except they are getting rid of the help to by more gadgets that still won’t get the job done.

They use police SWAT tactics where one grenade or an RPG would take out the whole damned unit.

The people behind this need theirs heads examined, preferably in a jar.:whip:

[Sigurd]

Every special forces geek know Spetznas aren't the most elite group in Russia. The elite group is so top secret, the members don't even know what it's called. To be even considered, you have to capture a live Siberian tiger female, after threatening her cubs, with your bare hands. The tiger must be unharmed, otherwise Putin comes personally and kills you with martial arts.

After that, you have to capture and domesticate a wild bear, and later you go to battle riding on it.


Bah... Siberian tiger...
Candidates for the MJK needs to swim to Svalbard naked from Bergen, club some baby seals with their private parts and dress in their skin, before hunting down a hungry 2000 lb Polar bear, spit on its snout and skin it with their teeth. Only those able to swim back and deliver the polar bear pelt on the docks of the Naval Base in Bergen is considered "material" for the MJK

[Pannonian]

Norwegian anti-terrorism forces (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EgSkm9GLaU)

[Husar]

Bah... Siberian tiger...
Candidates for the MJK needs to swim to Svalbard naked from Bergen, club some baby seals with their private parts and dress in their skin, before hunting down a hungry 2000 lb Polar bear, spit on its snout and skin it with their teeth. Only those able to swim back and deliver the polar bear pelt on the docks of the Naval Base in Bergen is considered "material" for the MJK

That's just barbaric, the poor baby seals. :no:

[Pannonian]

Bah... Siberian tiger...
Candidates for the MJK needs to swim to Svalbard naked from Bergen, club some Navy SEALs with their private parts and dress in their skin, before hunting down a hungry 200 lb Russian bear, spit on its snout and skin it with their teeth. Only those able to swim back and deliver the Russian bear pelt on the docks of the Naval Base in Bergen is considered "material" for the MJK

Corrected.

[Sarmatian]

Bah... Siberian tiger...
Candidates for the MJK needs to swim to Svalbard naked from Bergen, club some baby seals with their private parts and dress in their skin, before hunting down a hungry 2000 lb Polar bear, spit on its snout and skin it with their teeth. Only those able to swim back and deliver the polar bear pelt on the docks of the Naval Base in Bergen is considered "material" for the MJK

Pictures or it didn't happen.

[Kadagar_AV]

I know personal thoughts have little to do with this debate, but there was this one happening in my life that I thought would be worth to share here.

There was this situation in a bar where I was working, where 7 (wannabe gangsta) Turks were hassling a woman. This, big, Russian guy steps over to have a talk with them.

These 7 turks were HUGE, and very obviously criminal and trained street thugs. Anyway, situation escalated and this Russian took them all down, hard.

Now, I tell this because it WASN'T like in the movies, with a special ops guy manhandling a criminal gang. When it was all over, he had been stabbed a few times and was completely beaten up. From what I had seen, it had more to do with him being able to TAKE, rather than give.

Afterwards I asked why he had done it, and he just rolled up his sleeve and shoved the tatoo. "Spetznaz" he said.

He wasn't proud of it. He didn't say it to brag.

He said it to explain why he had gone through what most people don't.

I think each and every Delta Force, SAS or Kampfschwimmer would have the same ethos and same ability to GIVE hell. But what I saw in this Russians eyes gave me whole other perceptions of what it means to sustain hell, and let it mold and shape you.

He saw it as his job to do, that had to go through. No more, no less.

I have met Special Forces operatives from around the world, and they are all elite. Heroes even.

This Russian was just a farmer who joined and made a hard life in the Army. I would however choose him to cover my back any day of the week.

[Montmorency]

It's pretty obvious that both regular and special forces participate. Each is suited to tasks of a different nature. Get over your anti-SF rageboner.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Guys, guys, guys. I know how to settle this debate. Let me just show you how elite American operators train, and you'll realize all your other special forces with fancy sounding foreign names that just mean the same thing can't measure up.

But be warned - this is some intense training and you may not be able to handle it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lARYUDy8BNY&feature=youtu.be

CR

[Husar]

SF do not win hearts and minds. The average troops who patrol the streets, talk to local leaders, and deal with the backlash from violent and often unexplained SF raids are the ones who do that.

There's so much wrong in this thread I don't even know where to start. I was gonna stay out of it, but Husar's posts alone are enough to warrant this.

What? Everything I say is perfectly 100% validated truth.

You also completely misunderstood the whole thing about winning hearts and minds and who does that and where and when.
The special forces you deal or dealt with the are the killer commando gung-ho types who pale in comparison to Spetsnaz.
The special forces who are supposed to win hearts and minds, they are different, they were different and they are either not deployed in Afghanistan at all or they are working with locals in US-friendly villages somewhere far away from where you were stationed.

It's also perfectly possible that the bloodthirsty US policies and the end of the cold war in combination with the terrorist scaretactics lead to a change in weight. In the sense that the killer commando special forces were increased in number while the number of winning hearts and minds operators was toned down. This would then obviously be a failure of US military strategy in Afghanistan and here we all thought that one was perfect...

That said I also never called it winning hearts and minds and found that to be a bit wrong as these operators were usually sent to people who weren't all that fond of the enemy in the first place. It's not my fault that American governments in the past years have completely failed to utilize special forces the way they were originally intended to be used and gotten themselves into conflicts they cannot win using their favourite bloodthirsty retaliation rhetoric. That book I have is from 2000, so it was written before 9/11 started the whole terror craze and the downwards spiral in US military tactics and strategies.

The focus on this topic also completely fails to recognize the actual point of my posts, which was that Spetsnaz are superior to all other special forces.


Guys, guys, guys. I know how to settle this debate. Let me just show you how elite American operators train, and you'll realize all your other special forces with fancy sounding foreign names that just mean the same thing can't measure up.

But be warned - this is some intense training and you may not be able to handle it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lARYUDy8BNY&feature=youtu.be

CR

Ugh, so they learn how to hit a target at <3m distance, the RPO Shmel has a range of 600m, the Spetsnaz will turn them into Kentucky fried chicks no matter how fast they can draw their peashooters.

[Montmorency]

Ugh, so they learn how to hit a target at <3m distance, the RPO Shmel has a range of 600m, the Spetsnaz will turn them into Kentucky fried chicks no matter how fast they can draw their peashooters.

Just like the Germans would have won the war if they'd gotten a chance to build their 100-ton tanks.

[Strike For The South]

I liked the part where the white guy beat up all the Turks

[Husar]

Just like the Germans would have won the war if they'd gotten a chance to build their 100-ton tanks.

How is that relevant? It's not even correct and bears no resemblance to what I said.


I liked the part where the white guy beat up all the Turks

I liked it too and I have a friend who is a turkey.

[Montmorency]

How is that relevant? It's not even correct and bears no resemblance to what I said.

Huh?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ugh, so they learn how to hit a target at <3m distance, the RPO Shmel has a range of 600m, the Spetsnaz will turn them into Kentucky fried chicks no matter how fast they can draw their peashooters.

You clearly didn't see the guy draw the DOUBLE KNIVES after shooting and face the camera. Or perhaps you did but it was too extreme for you and it melted the part of your brain that tried to remember it.

CR

[Fisherking]

You clearly didn't see the guy draw the DOUBLE KNIVES after shooting and face the camera. Or perhaps you did but it was too extreme for you and it melted the part of your brain that tried to remember it.

CR

There is so much wrong with that clip. And the training, and the people who thought it up.

Training Police to think they are Rambo… and we wonder why they shoot kids with toy guns and game controllers?

[Brenus]

“Indeed, ask the French about the Maginot line” Weeellll, the Germans didn’t attack the Maginot line, didn’t they. They avoid carefully, and with good reason to do so. Now, I gave you Eben-Emael. :yes:

[Major Robert Dump]

My balls are pretty awesome

[Sarmatian]

My balls are pretty awesome

For the tenth time, your private parts do not constitute a special force, irregardless of how much training you give them.

[Fisherking]

For the tenth time, your private parts do not constitute a special force, irregardless of how much training you give them.

MRD was part of a very special unit. Though now he may be trolling to provide special services...:laugh4:

[Husar]

Huh?

How many handguns can be accurately used out to 600m?
The situation of Germany in late WW2 has nothing to do with the situation of Spetsnaz in a fight against other special forces.


You clearly didn't see the guy draw the DOUBLE KNIVES after shooting and face the camera. Or perhaps you did but it was too extreme for you and it melted the part of your brain that tried to remember it.

CR

How many people can hit someone with double knives who is 600m away?


“Indeed, ask the French about the Maginot line” Weeellll, the Germans didn’t attack the Maginot line, didn’t they. They avoid carefully, and with good reason to do so. Now, I gave you Eben-Emael. :yes:

Did the french keep the Maginot line? I don't think so.In the end the barn was lost anyway, not my fault that western special forces always train barn assault and barn defense while Spetsnaz have a weapon of barn destruction.

[Kadagar_AV]

I liked the part where the white guy beat up all the Turks

Actually he was rather Mongolian looking than white... Not all Russians are white, it's a wast territory you know :)

[Fisherking]

How many handguns can be accurately used out to 600m?


I know you are having fun but lets play this game.

600meter is nothing. You must be assuming that a 50 cal wont kill the guy before he get that close.

Bunkers are usually arranged in groups with interlocking fires. Lighter weapons in them would be M-2 cal .50s and Mk 19 grenade launchers.

They would not be as easy to see or take out as the cinderblock building shown in the film with big windows.

That is if they got past the scout platoon that was out in front of the bunker line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_19_grenade_launcher

Don’t even get me started on how two cavalry scouts would wipe out all of them. ;)

[Fisherking]

Actually he was rather Mongolian looking than white... Not all Russians are white, it's a wast territory you know :)

you have been hanging out with German speakers too long boy. Confusing Vs and Ws.

[Sarmatian]

Don’t even get me started on how two cavalry scouts would wipe out all of them. ;)

Not if the special forces are in a phalanx formation.

[Kadagar_AV]

you have been hanging out with German speakers too long boy. Confusing Vs and Ws.

Caught me... Came back from Austria two days ago... vhere ze trainz runz on TIME, Verdammt!!

[Husar]

I know you are having fun but lets play this game.

600meter is nothing. You must be assuming that a 50 cal wont kill the guy before he get that close.

Bunkers are usually arranged in groups with interlocking fires. Lighter weapons in them would be M-2 cal .50s and Mk 19 grenade launchers.

They would not be as easy to see or take out as the cinderblock building shown in the film with big windows.

That is if they got past the scout platoon that was out in front of the bunker line.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_19_grenade_launcher

Don’t even get me started on how two cavalry scouts would wipe out all of them. ;)

Spetsnaz are not meant and not stupid enough to try a frontal attack on your bunker. I also wonder how we came from a barn to a bunker.

But if you want to play this game, everybody knows that all American houses/barns fall apart much faster than a cinderblock building. I wouldn't trust american bunkers too much, someone might have had the bright idea to build them with wood so they can be rebuilt faster after their avoidable destruction.

Cavalry scouts wouldn't do much against Spetsnaz.
Here's a video about Spetsnaz weapons that also points out the huge failure of Delta Force in Mogadishu, proving that Spetsnaz are clearly superior:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qclHNa_IE

[Gregoshi]

Oh yeah? Well my guys in my hypothetical situation can beat up your guys in (my interpretation of) your hypothetical situation! And all before breakfast. So there! :dozey:

[Husar]

Oh yeah? Well my guys in my hypothetical situation can beat up your guys in (my interpretation of) your hypothetical situation! And all before breakfast. So there! :dozey:

Beating up Russians? :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyXlXyYAe0M

Good luck with that! :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Brenus]

"Did the french keep the Maginot line? I don't think so" No, they didn't, because special Forces attacked them in the back, and that is what special forces are trained to do. But, the way was opened by none special forces, armored divisions through Ardennes (Bulges).

[Husar]

No, they didn't, because special Forces attacked them in the back, and that is what special forces are trained to do. But, the way was opened by none special forces, armored divisions through Ardennes (Bulges).

The point was about defensive positions, the Wehrmacht didn't really have any special forces in the modern sense anyway IIRC.

[Fisherking]

Look, the whole thing is a game of “My dog’s better than your dog!”

Who is best trained? I doubt anyone can tell you that honestly. Guessing I would say Delta and SAS. Not the SEALs regardless of what you see or think you see. Russian Alpha? Maybe.

Who is most effective? Last time I checked it would be Israel and Russia. The SEALs managed a couple of quick strikes lately but I would have to know more.

The US has always been good at training the operators. They just suck went it comes to executing missions. Mostly because of the halfwit job they do in planning. Command and Staff mixed with political objectives.

Maybe they have gotten a little better since most of the military missions are now geared more to special ops than traditional missions, but that is not the way to win wars. Just tick people off.

The way to neutralize the threat of special ops is to better train regular troops, but that doesn’t grab headlines or get generals promoted.

Special operators don’t fight other special forces. That is some Hollywood scenario.

[Husar]

What was so great about the Osama mission anyway?

The only real skill involved was in building and flying the helicopters with reduced radar cross sections that allowed them to get in in the first place.
Shooting the five armed guys in a house full of women and noncombatants can't have been the hard part, normal army soldiers do that regularly as Jelly Cube said.
It was a dirty murder job where they sat still in a helicopter during the hardest part, getting into the country unnoticed.

That's why children want to be pilots and not SEALs.

So as an aside, who makes the better SEAL? LL Cool J or Alex O'Loughlin?

[Beskar]

Actually, the intelligence side of the Osama mission was pretty impressive, they basically stalked everyone who has links with Al Qaeda for years following breadcrumbs till they kept notes of the messenger and increased priority level by level till they had a good level of suspicion.

[Husar]

Actually, the intelligence side of the Obama mission was pretty impressive, they basically stalked everyone who has links with Al Qaeda for years following breadcrumbs till they kept notes of the messenger and increased priority level by level till they had a good level of suspicion.

I suppose you mean the Osama mission, the Obama mission just stalked everybody who has links with American voters by sending them dozens of emails AFAIK.

And we just learned how the NSA and other US security agencies are stalking everyone with all the means at their disposal, nothing to do with the Special Forces themselves though.

[Papewaio]

I don't know who the best are but one of the best with the coolest nickname was "Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare" in WWII.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Executive

[Kadagar_AV]

I don't know who the best are but one of the best with the coolest nickname was "Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare" in WWII.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Executive

See? This is why the actual English should be the shining beacon of the English language, and anyone speaking USAnian should.. Learn to speak English.

[Myth]

I didn't quite get why they needed stealth choppers when they were flying alongside 3 regular ones which used radar jammers or whatever that tech does.

Oh, and the pilot managed to crash one of the two stealth choppers when landing in the courtyard, so the SEALs had to demo it upon exit. Which they sort of messed up, because the tail rotor survived.

Beware the upcoming pakistani stealth choppers!

When we are talking about conventional forces - what are the equivalents to the US Marine corps for other countries when it comes to power projection overseas? And I saw in the Ukraine thread that GC stated that Russian tanks are equal or superior to the Abrhams currently employed by the US forces. But isn't anti-tank warfare the primary reason why the USA has about 8000 choppers employed in its army?

[Husar]

Good question about the stealth helicopters.

As for the tanks, apparently none of them are invulnerable or going to survive a lot of hits by anything modern. With older equipment you can probably hit them several times in the front as can be seen on videos from Syria with older T-72 models. But the Syrian rebels do not really seploay top attack missiles or similar measures. Russian tanks have some newer protection systems anyway, such as the Shtora laser disruption system or the ARENA active protection system that blows up incoming rockets/missiles before impact. Several other nations like the US and Israel are developing similar active protection systems but my completely uninformed impression is that Russia is a bit ahead as I have not yet seen an Abrams equipped with such a system while there are a few videos on youtube demonstrating ARENA at least in live fire tests.

Either way the US would have to get Abrams to Crimea first. I'm not sure a D-Day-style beach invasion would be popular or work quite as well as it did in 1944 given that Russia would fire quite a lot of stuff at the incoming ships.

As for helicopters, yes, but helicopters alone only really work with some sort of air superiority and I'm not sure how the helicopter vs. ground-based air defense game is going these days. The Russians surely have sophisticated and modern systems in these areas and a few helicopters of their own.

And concerning Marine Corps, quite a few countries have those, Netherlands, Britain, France, Russia. Germany does not because force projection was not really a goal here since the third reich projected a little too much force in its days.

[Myth]

Ah yes, the Nazis. If only they had been a little less bonkers, Germany would probably have been the #3 military in the world today. That's probably the reason why you also lack nuclear arms I guess?

Also, air defence systems work over Russia, but the Crimea is probably not that well defended. And the USA still has the largest air fleet as well. And probably the best one tech wise.

[Kagemusha]

I didn't quite get why they needed stealth choppers when they were flying alongside 3 regular ones which used radar jammers or whatever that tech does.

Oh, and the pilot managed to crash one of the two stealth choppers when landing in the courtyard, so the SEALs had to demo it upon exit. Which they sort of messed up, because the tail rotor survived.

Beware the upcoming pakistani stealth choppers!

When we are talking about conventional forces - what are the equivalents to the US Marine corps for other countries when it comes to power projection overseas? And I saw in the Ukraine thread that GC stated that Russian tanks are equal or superior to the Abrhams currently employed by the US forces. But isn't anti-tank warfare the primary reason why the USA has about 8000 choppers employed in its army?

I can comment few basic things about modern MBT´s and bit more about how to defeat them from my limited knowledge. Im sure GC can tell you just about everything from tankers view.
Basically East and West have bit different approach to basic tank armor.

Western armor generally has composite armor, which means layers of different materials, functioning so that the different layers eat up the kinetic or explosive force of the projectile, thus denying penetration.

Eastern (Russian) armor is usually solid steel, but has nova days ERA, which is very interesting approach. It is basically lot of shaped charges placed on top the steel armor. It´s function is to defeat the incoming projectile by counter energy.

Of course as armor develops, so will the means to defeat armor. The most modern AT missiles have tandem HEAT warheads where two warheads hit one after another the same spot in the armor, thus defeating both classic Western and Eastern countermeasures many times. In Finnish inventory such AT missile is PSTOHJ 2000M (aka Eurospike) our lighter AT system is NLAW, which is a one man portable fire and forget AT missile which missile has double sensor for defeating systems like SHTORA. It is interesting indeed if countermeasure like ARENA can still defeat both. But i bet there is little it can do about multiple incoming projectiles. Like said earlier. It is endless race and there are lot of very deadly stuff around.

Of course portable AT missiles are not at all only ways to effectively destroy armor. With enough HE you can destroy anything and the classic approach of large caliber kinetic projectiles like modern tank guns and autocannons for example GAU- 8 of US A-10 attack aircraft can defeat tanks.

All in all we can never be sure what works and what not to most modern designs, unless there would be a war between two sides with latest equipments, which i think in the end we really dont want to witness.

[Fisherking]

Up to date ratings on tanks. http://www.military-today.com/tanks/top_10_main_battle_tanks.htm

The Air Farce is retiring the A-10. They never liked it. It supports the Army and it is more glamorous to fly fighter planes.

[Kagemusha]

Up to date ratings on tanks. http://www.military-today.com/tanks/top_10_main_battle_tanks.htm

The Air Farce is retiring the A-10. They never liked it. It supports the Army and it is more glamorous to fly fighter planes.

I think that is a big mistake. Talk about bang for a buck when one talks about A-10. Maybe we can buy some of them dirt cheap like the Dutch Leopard 2a6 fleet? Petty, pretty please..?:rolleyes:

[Husar]

Western armor generally has composite armor, which means layers of different materials, functioning so that the different layers eat up the kinetic or explosive force of the projectile, thus denying penetration.

Eastern (Russian) armor is usually solid steel, but has nova days ERA, which is very interesting approach. It is basically lot of shaped charges placed on top the steel armor. It´s function is to defeat the incoming projectile by counter energy.

That's not entirely true as the Soviet T-64 was the first tank in the world to deploy composite armor and was later developed into the T-80, which is still in use today. I'm not sure to what extent the T-72 and T-90 family uses composite or whether they just rely on ERA as you say.
The Leopard 2 A5 and A6 also uses a clever system of spaced armor on the turret.


Of course as armor develops, so will the means to defeat armor. The most modern AT missiles have tandem HEAT warheads where two warheads hit one after another the same spot in the armor, thus defeating both classic Western and Eastern countermeasures many times. In Finnish inventory such AT missile is PSTOHJ 2000M (aka Eurospike) our lighter AT system is NLAW, which is a one man portable fire and forget AT missile which missile has double sensor for defeating systems like SHTORA. It is interesting indeed if countermeasure like ARENA can still defeat both. But i bet there is little it can do about multiple incoming projectiles. Like said earlier. It is endless race and there are lot of very deadly stuff around.

Indeed, but I suppose having ARENA is still better than not having ARENA.


Of course portable AT missiles are not at all only ways to effectively destroy armor. With enough HE you can destroy anything and the classic approach of large caliber kinetic projectiles like modern tank guns and autocannons for example GAU- 8 of US A-10 attack aircraft can defeat tanks.

Well, I often hear the tank that hits first with a shot from the cannon is the tank that wins. On the other hand Russian tanks extend their range and accuracy by a large margin by deploying anti tank missiles fired from their guns. the autocannons usually just work because they're on a plane and can hit from above or other unsuitable angles, at the same time the airplane is a nice target for anti air assets.


All in all we can never be sure what works and what not to most modern designs, unless there would be a war between two sides with latest equipments, which i think in the end we really dont want to witness.

I thought we're all looking forward to US vs. Russia on the Crimean peninsula. I could swear some Janes' flight sim or so was situated there. We could also reeneact it in Operation Flashpoint or maybe ArmA 2. :sweatdrop:

[Kagemusha]

That's not entirely true as the Soviet T-64 was the first tank in the world to deploy composite armor and was later developed into the T-80, which is still in use today. I'm not sure to what extent the T-72 and T-90 family uses composite or whether they just rely on ERA as you say.
The Leopard 2 A5 and A6 also uses a clever system of spaced armor on the turret.

Thank you for the information. ~:) Like i said there are many people far more knowledgeable concerning tanks then i am as im no tanker. I know just some basic things. If it helps anyway. I have at least been driven over by T-55M.We were lined in the ground with my squad in basic training. Apparently to get "familiar" with tanks. All i was wishing was that the driver could drive straight with that old modified colossus.:shrug:

[Kadagar_AV]

Thank you for the information. ~:) Like i said there are many people far more knowledgeable concerning tanks then i am as im no tanker. I know just some basic things. If it helps anyway. I have at least been driven over by T-55M.We were lined in the ground with my squad in basic training. Apparently to get "familiar" with tanks. All i was wishing was that the driver could drive straight with that old modified colossus.:shrug:

I can't believe your troops still do that!?

So did the Swedes, when we still expected trench warfare...

No big flame on your defensive capabilities though, compared to Sweden. You even have an army and stuff....

[The Lurker Below]

I think that is a big mistake. Talk about bang for a buck when one talks about A-10. Maybe we can buy some of them dirt cheap like the Dutch Leopard 2a6 fleet? Petty, pretty please..?:rolleyes:

Again? They "retired" the A10 shortly after Desert Storm, twenty years ago. That retirement didn't work out. Does anybody believe it will be permanent and total this round?

[rvg]

Last I heard they were keeping it until 2028 or so. It's just too damn good.

[Kagemusha]

I can't believe your troops still do that!?

So did the Swedes, when we still expected trench warfare...

No big flame on your defensive capabilities though, compared to Sweden. You even have an army and stuff....

At least back in 1999 it was basic stuff.:yes:
Regarding Swedish stuff.I think you are manufacturing lot of exellent material, like things we are already using, namely NLAW, CV-90 IFV and if i recall right also AMOS advanced mortar system is a joint effort of Finland and Sweden. One thing ive never figured out as an old infantryman is that why on earth our retards at the defense ministry have not bought these from you as our army has mortars like now tomorrow and they arent exactly very expensive AT material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_mortar_round

Yesterday i read from our news papers that there is now actually talk in Sweden also, if you guys should increase your defense spending a bit. Am i right?

[Kadagar_AV]

At least back in 1999 it was basic stuff.:yes:
Regarding Swedish stuff.I think you are manufacturing lot of exellent material, like things we are already using, namely NLAW, CV-90 IFV and if i recall right also AMOS advanced mortar system is a joint effort of Finland and Sweden. One thing ive never figured out as an old infantryman is that why on earth our retards at the defense ministry have not bought these from you as our army has mortars like now tomorrow and they arent exactly very expensive AT material:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strix_mortar_round

Yesterday i read from our news papers that there is now actually talk in Sweden also, if you guys should increase your defense spending a bit. Am i right?

Yeah, Sweden have great military toys. We just don't have the manpower to operate it.

You are right, Sweden just decided to raise our budget for the military. We have also stationed as many as 2 fighter jets on Gotland, I am sure that will keep the Russian Bear at bay.

Honestly speaking, I give it a 50/50 chance that the raised military budget goes straight to supporting transexual personel in the field with a gender neutral toilet.

[Fisherking]

Yeah, Sweden have great military toys. We just don't have the manpower to operate it.

You are right, Sweden just decided to raise our budget for the military. We have also stationed as many as 2 fighter jets on Gotland, I am sure that will keep the Russian Bear at bay.

Honestly speaking, I give it a 50/50 chance that the raised military budget goes straight to supporting transexual personel in the field with a gender neutral toilet.


LOL http://www.tpnn.com/2014/03/02/face-of-the-modern-military-gay-troops-perform-in-drag-at-air-force-base/

[Husar]

LOL http://www.tpnn.com/2014/03/02/face-of-the-modern-military-gay-troops-perform-in-drag-at-air-force-base/

LOL


While Russia invades Ukraine, as Islamic terrorist factions plot the West’s destruction, [...]

Because the war on terror and the future of Ukraine depend entirely on troops stationed in Japan who have no orders to mobilize...

[rvg]

LOL http://www.tpnn.com/2014/03/02/face-of-the-modern-military-gay-troops-perform-in-drag-at-air-force-base/
It's okay. As long as they're good at killing people.

[Papewaio]

LOL http://www.tpnn.com/2014/03/02/face-of-the-modern-military-gay-troops-perform-in-drag-at-air-force-base/

Hardly new news that military entertainers may have a higher percentage of alternative lifestyles then the norm.

Heck the Brits used to have a TV sitcom that had that range of characters made in the seventies and set in WWII. "It Ain't Half Hot Mum"

BBC wins again.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Most countries have too many of these people and depleat their conventional forces. The US may be the worst for this.

They use special ops for jobs that should be using cavalry scouts or a tank-infantry team.

Tell me why the navy needs 2,000 seals when they have marine divisions. Special Ops are support troops not the battle fighters.

The army cuts whole divisions and expands rangers and special forces

Even the Air Force has thousands of them. For what?

They train their infantry to act like special ops when they should be learning basic tactics. Everybody wants to be a ranger.

They blow more money on a ranger company than an armored brigade. I won’t even go to what they do with the more classified organizations.

Elite formations don’t equate to a strong war winning military. The mind set has pretty much been losing the war on terror or any other operations they have tried.

They interest Hollywood and the public and glorify war.

Surgical strikes don’t win guerrilla wars. Denying the fighters a hiding place does. Occupy and pacify. They don’t commit the troops to occupy and they had rectal-cranial-insertion when it came to hearts and minds.

They need to get rid of about 90% of these forces and get back to occupying ground and denying the enemy a place and opportunity to operate.

They fight short sharp actions against poorly defended objectives. If it is heavily defended they get help, except they are getting rid of the help to by more gadgets that still won’t get the job done.

They use police SWAT tactics where one grenade or an RPG would take out the whole damned unit.

The people behind this need theirs heads examined, preferably in a jar.:whip:

"Why" questions relating to human affairs are almost always answered in the same way: money.

The air force needs those specialists so that the air force does not appear to be inadequate and insure that it's percentage of the funding is not diminished. Remember, our military is paid to confront the opponents of the USA, but our military knows that the REAL enemy is the competing services in other offices at the Pentagon. Hackworth called it "perfumed prince" logic.

[Kadagar_AV]

One thing not mentioned...

The best special forces is the ones trained for the battle they get.

I am about 100% sure that Austrian Gebirgsjäger would kick behinds in a defensive battle in mountaineous terrain. I am equally sure they would be rather worthless storming beaches.

SAS will beat most others in jungle warfare, as they train for it... Whereas the French Foreign Legion excell in the desert.

There really is no way to say who is "the best", as it depends on the battleground, and how well various trainings corresponds to it.

[Husar]

One thing not mentioned...

The best special forces is the ones trained for the battle they get.

I am about 100% sure that Austrian Gebirgsjäger would kick behinds in a defensive battle in mountaineous terrain. I am equally sure they would be rather worthless storming beaches.

Only until the Spetsnaz arrive. Don't fall for their propaganda, vodka > training.


SAS will beat most others in jungle warfare, as they train for it... Whereas the French Foreign Legion excell in the desert.

What have you been smoking?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m17ROteNP3E

The FFL gets very tough jungle training and they also work a lot in the jungle.
Spetsnaz are sent into the jungle at age five and may only return home after they have wrestled and domesticated a siberian tiger.

[Kadagar_AV]

Only until the Spetsnaz arrive. Don't fall for their propaganda, vodka > training.



What have you been smoking?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m17ROteNP3E

The FFL gets very tough jungle training and they also work a lot in the jungle.
Spetsnaz are sent into the jungle at age five and may only return home after they have wrestled and domesticated a siberian tiger.

My bad, I should have known that. Read up on it and stuff even, oh well, shows what pot will do to your memory :)