Being assaulted and robbed isn't very much fun at all

[Kadagar_AV]

So, in one of those rare occasions I didn't have my bodyguard with me (my dog), I got robbed.

I was walking home from the commuter train station, and I was on the phone. I payed little to no regards to what happened behind me.

Anyway, I got a push in the back. Kind of well balanced as I am, I didn't fall, which might have been a mistake, as 4-5 guys then jumped me with punches and kicks.

When they had asserted I wasn't a physical threat anymore, they went through my pockets and stole everything of value.

They ended the whole ordeal with spitting me in the face.

Do I have to say the gang was mixed with sub-sahara-africans and arabs? I think it was 4 or 5 of them.

I don't like living in a multicultural society *shivers*

This happened some days ago, but I was to shocked to write about it till now. It seriously upset me, as it felt more like a hate-crime than robbery. Oh, and my right middle finger will never be okay again, according to the doctors. They stomped on it, and it had also been twisted.

Too bad, was looking forward to Diablo 3 expansion... But now my mouse-handling skills will forever be impaired.

FML

[Fragony]

Sorry to hear it. Violence is scary, if it doesn't frighten and shock you there is something wrong with you. Good luck with your recovery, don't worry about your finger, I can't remember how many times I have broken my hands, or anything really.

Are you getting any aftercare by the way, wouldn't be too proud to look for it.

[Kadagar_AV]

Sorry to hear it. Violence is scary, if it doesn't frighten and shock you there is something wrong with you. Good luck with your recovery, don't worry about your finger, I can't remember how many times I have broken my hands, or anything really.

Let's just say that the doctors have stated that a career as piano player is out of reach. To put it mildly.

I guess it can still fill a symbolical value though. So there is that going for me...

[Fragony]

Dislocated knuckle? Do go talk to someone by the way. A few years ago someone was shot in the head and two friends of mine had blood and brains all over them, they weren't all that upset at the time but they later got nightmares of eyes fading away. Being assaulted (and humiliated) leaves a mark.

[Kadagar_AV]

Dislocated knuckle? Do go talk to someone by the way. A few years ago someone was shot in the head and two friends of mine had blood and brains all over them, they weren't all that upset at the time but they later got nightmares of eyes fading away. Being assaulted (and humiliated) leaves a mark.

That of course as well. But also quite some dead nerves. I guess the dead nerves is the problem.

[Major Robert Dump]

Next time claim to be a job recruiter and it will scare them away

[Fragony]

That of course as well. But also quite some dead nerves. I guess the dead nerves is the problem.

Don't worry, this is what is left of my hand and I can play a piano just fine.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/image_zps603c4a8e.jpg

[rajpoot]

Sorry to hear about it man. I can empathize with what you must have gone through. Good thing you are making a recovery though.
About that middle finger....did they choose to assault it specifically because of something you did to spite them or was it just whim?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

They stomped on the hand to inflict the greatest crippling damage without killing him. The middle finger was probably at the point of the heel impact.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I will say a prayer for your speedy/best possible recovery.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What a bunch of bastards.

I agree with Frags, talk to someone, and get a second opinion about the hand - often a specialist will give you a different answer to a normal hospital doctor.

And - hell - I know what you mean - come to my country by all means, but don't kick the **** out of me and knick all the bronze war memorials.

[Husar]

I agree with PVC (I hate when people ruin the bronze Hitler statues), hope you have a speedy recovery, especially for your hand/finger.

Also one more reason not to concentrate on the phone too much, obviously some people hate that. ~;)

But seriously, that sounds like a very brutal attack, would be good if they can be found and jailed due to being caught on video or so. I suppose charges were filed?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I agree with PVC (I hate when people ruin the bronze Hitler statues), hope you have a speedy recovery, especially for your hand/finger.

Also one more reason not to concentrate on the phone too much, obviously some people hate that. ~;)

But seriously, that sounds like a very brutal attack, would be good if they can be found and jailed due to being caught on video or so. I suppose charges were filed?

It was a bronze Jesus, actually.

Much local rage - because - you know - been there almost a hundred years.

I won't say who was suspected of doing it, let's just say it's something else Kad and I have common ground on.

[Gregoshi]

Sorry to hear about this Kad. I hope it doesn't trouble your thoughts too much and your finger recovers better than expected.

[Kadagar_AV]

MRD, if only it was that easy.

Rajpoot, I think Seamus Fermanagh's assessment is correct.

Seamus Fermanagh, Cheers, and thank you.

PVC, Thank you. As political as it was, I really don't dwell on that. Politics are about statistics, there I am but a number. This incident was very... personal? But then, I guess there is the same harm in all the numbers.

Sucks.

Husar, charges are filled, yes, That happens automatically when you come to hospital. I don't think it will be solved though... No cameras around, and only (mine) witness description is "a blur of people attacked".

Gregoshi, Cheers, thank you.




Bravado aside, I am quite shaken by this.


EDIT: I have an appointment with a hand specialist on Wednesday.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

MRD, if only it was that easy.

Rajpoot, I think Seamus Fermanagh's assessment is correct.

Seamus Fermanagh, Cheers, and thank you.

PVC, Thank you. As political as it was, I really don't dwell on that. Politics are about statistics, there I am but a number. This incident was very... personal? But then, I guess there is the same harm in all the numbers.

Sucks.

Husar, charges are filled, yes, That happens automatically when you come to hospital. I don't think it will be solved though... No cameras around, and only (mine) witness description is "a blur of people attacked".

Gregoshi, Cheers, thank you.




Bravado aside, I am quite shaken by this.


EDIT: I have an appointment with a hand specialist on Wednesday.

1. You are most welcome.

2. Hope the hand specialist has a better sense of how to make things right.

3. Whatever therapy is assigned, do NOT skimp on it -- it is amazing how much strength and r-o-m can be recovered with proper physical therapy, even where nerve damage has occurred.

4. Of course you are shaken up. That is what we would label a normal emotional response -- and braggadocio about being a "successful" ski instructor aside, you are probably a pretty normal fellow.

[Kadagar_AV]

Seamus Fermanagh, r-o-m-?

rom in swedish = rome, so all I get from a google search is ruins and gladiators, with the odd centurion tossed in.

[Kadagar_AV]

Dislocated knuckle? Do go talk to someone by the way. A few years ago someone was shot in the head and two friends of mine had blood and brains all over them, they weren't all that upset at the time but they later got nightmares of eyes fading away. Being assaulted (and humiliated) leaves a mark.

I risk my physical status most days of the week. Even when I'm in Stockholm (Parkour).

The mental side of this whole thing is the bigger cross to bear, you are spot on - on that observation. I think it's the humiliation that really will grow a scar.

I usually am proud of my ability to fathom things in a logical manner, but this ordeal just blows my mind.

[Husar]

It was a bronze Jesus, actually.

Much local rage - because - you know - been there almost a hundred years.

I won't say who was suspected of doing it, let's just say it's something else Kad and I have common ground on.

I was just thinking about whether this happened here and who we could possibly have a war memorial of and then I thought this might be funny, but yeah, I'm a German, shouldn't attempt jokes, point taken....again...

You may remember that I got robbed by an immigrant as well, there's no need to be forgiving if they can't behave, but also no need to wish the ones out who do behave. Just saying, I'm glad my assailant got jailed but these guys obviously deserve it a lot more given the physical harm they caused, it's way more brutal and I can fully understand that Kadagar is shaken.


Seamus Fermanagh, r-o-m-?

rom in swedish = rome, so all I get from a google search is ruins and gladiators, with the odd centurion tossed in.

I think he means range of motion/movement, let's hope you regain enough of that to be comfortable at least.
And please don't take my attempts at humor as insensitive, it's just my way of dealing with almost anything, I'm quitte a bit shocked by your description of what they did, it's mind-boggingly brutal. :bow:

[Kadagar_AV]

I think he means range of motion/movement, let's hope you regain enough of that to be comfortable at least.
And please don't take my attempts at humor as insensitive, it's just my way of dealing with almost anything, I'm quitte a bit shocked by your description of what they did, it's mind-boggingly brutal. :bow:

You just have to face that you as German are comedy-impaired.

Thanks for the "translation" though, and also for your best wishes.

And yes, it was brutal alright.



I don't even know why I write about it here. But in a way, having shared close to 3000 thoughts on these boards and have them met by all of you, you guys are as close to me as any - but my best friends.


Any puns you have, please save them for a later thread. I appreciate all puns and attacks on these boards, but right now my nerves are on the skin of my body. Literary speaking ;)

[Kadagar_AV]

PS: My finger was against a pebble as they stomped repeatedly, if you wonder why I worry.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sorry, you communicate so well in English that I sometimes forget that it is your 2nd or 3rd language. Husar was quite correct: range of motion.

You do understand, logically, that the only mistake you made was situational awareness -- a mistake we all make and which nobody gets perfectly right. Moreover, even that may have made little difference. 5-1 is bad odds/damn near insurmountable odds for anything outside of a chop-socky flick. In other words, you did nothing wrong and have nothing to be ashamed of in any way. At those odds, macho doesn't cut it...and you know this too. It may take your emotions a while to catch up with that truth, but let them catch up.

[Fragony]

Yeah. Kinda surprised they picked you, I assume you are in pretty good shape because your profession. Hope you can recognise them if the odds are more in your favour.

'violence doesn't solve anything' <- screw that

[HopAlongBunny]

Very sorry to hear about your assault.
I hope the hand specialist can give you some good news, and I hope your body finds ways to restore your rom and functionality.
All I could add I believe Seamus already said: no need or point in self recrimination, you were victimized by a random act of brutality; like being blind-sided in sports-by the very definition of the event there is next to nothing you could have done about it.

[Kagemusha]

I am sorry to hear what happened to you Kad. I hope for once the cops would get lucky and catch the SOB´s.

[Fisherking]

Sorry about what happened to you Kad.


It may well be that they will be found. You may even be the one to find them. It is unlikely that this was a one off attack on their part and they may just hang out in the same area looking for new victims.

Just up you vigilance and do use your camera.

It is not a cheery thought to run into them again, but be advised that it could be the case.

[Fragony]

I would be delighted to see them again really. Same area, yeah probably. You will probably find them very fast if you are looking for them Kads. These inbred-challenged retards are this cowardly for a reason, they could never take you on mano de mano.

[Ironside]

I sorry to hear about it Kadagar and I hope that you'll get a full recovery. And that those assulters gets either the police or revenge on them.


Yeah. Kinda surprised they picked you, I assume you are in pretty good shape because your profession. Hope you can recognise them if the odds are more in your favour.

'violence doesn't solve anything' <- screw that

What? You can't see how "macho" they were? It was outright mugging, not robbery. They probably picked him because he is well trained in this case.

[Fragony]

It kinda does sound more like a hate-crime than a robbery. Mabe it's for the better for all of us that his hand is a bit broken; if he he would be a Swedish ski-instructor with a history-degree who can ALSO play a nocturne it would get a little difficult for the rest of.

[Kadagar_AV]

Thank you all for caring.

According to the police, this gang goes to different small stops for subway/commuter train, and wait until they see someone walking alone. Ironside is right in his assessment according to the police, I was probably picked because I was a fit, young, white man.

They want to humiliate.

The others they have attacked had been between 20-30, at 33 I was the oldest. But then I do look and dress somewhat younger.

It's actually a relief hearing that they never attacked in the same area twice. Yes I want revenge, but I don't want to run in with them again, unless I have some friends along.

According to the police, they had rushed in my case, others have been treated worse. I think another train came, so they had to abort. Previously they have also forced people to give up their codes for the cash machines, with me they didnt have time. Lucky, well.... as luck goes...

I have noticed that I don't feel "safe" anymore, look over my shoulder and stuff. I think the mental damage will take longer to heal than the physical, if at all.

I never been much pro-immigration, as you all know. This however have cemented my belief, and I notice that I am more hateful now. I don't like hating, but I cant fight my own emotions. GAH!!

Oh well...

Don't really know what I wanted out of this thread, but hearing that my reaction is normal helps. Again, thank you all!! :bow:

EDIT: I wouldnt recognize anyone of them, unfortunately. I can walk right by them and have no idea... That irritates me. It really was all a blur, and I was a rubbish witness to the police. But the police have other witness reports from previous assaults, so yeah.... I hope they get caught.

I couldnt even say how many they were :no:

[Fragony]

If they operate in trainstations then why are they so hard to find, trainstations have security-camara's. Seems to me that the police isn't even trying. Buy a good knive that you can swing open by the way, you will feel better if you it have in your pocket.

[Sigurd]

I have noticed that I don't feel "safe" anymore, look over my shoulder and stuff. I think the mental damage will take longer to heal than the physical, if at all.

That's a damn shame.
Something similar happened to me in Scotland back in '92 when I was out'n about in Glasgow. Won't get into details but I managed to run them off. Can't for the life of me remember any faces and I didn't report it as I wasn't too hurt (only a cut from a bottle over my right ear). Even as "victorious", the mark is there. You just tense when you see youth gathered and think about how to best get out if attacked (never got it professionally looked into).
Of course back then - I wasn't distracted by a mobile phone, and saw them coming.

[Kadagar_AV]

If they operate in trainstations then why are they so hard to find, trainstations have security-camara's. Seems to me that the police isn't even trying. Buy a good knive that you can swing open by the way, you will feel better if you it have in your pocket.

They wait outside the stations until they see someone walking home alone. A knife probably wouldnt have helped much, and odds are I would just have been stabbed then. Also, I dont want to go to jail for knife-crime as that is seen as a serious crime here in Sweden. We're not even allowed to carry knifes, if it's not part of our job. As teacher it would be hard to explain why I need it.


Sigurd, Seems like you were lucky, or very fast?

I rarely use my phone, I make maybe 1-2 calls a day. This time however my mother called about my dog, he had an operation last thursday, so I really needed to take the call. Was a mistake in hindsigh, of course. But I'm not sure I like a society where you have to be on constant alert. I'm not used to living that way.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The problem with bringing in people from the 3rd world is that they bring the 3rd world with them. I'm in favor of immigration and freedom from oppression, jobs, and education for everyone, but in the US we balance it with having everyone armed to the teeth on their walk to the store or to Church. It is a hedge. Sorry that you felt the brunt of multikulti firsthand.

[Fragony]

They wait outside the stations until they see someone walking home alone. A knife probably wouldnt have helped much, and odds are I would just have been stabbed then. Also, I dont want to go to jail for knife-crime as that is seen as a serious crime here in Sweden. We're not even allowed to carry knifes, if it's not part of our job. As teacher it would be hard to explain why I need it.

I don't know if this is true for Sweden as well, but using a weapon in defence doesn't weight as much as possesion of something you aren't allowed to have. My knive is legal here at least, I like the thought that I can defend myself should I have to.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I don't know if this is true for Sweden as well, but using a weapon in defence doesn't weight as much as possesion of something you aren't allowed to have. My knive is legal here at least, I like the thought that I can defend myself should I have to.

Knives won't help you unless you are Doug Marcaida, but they might get you killed. You need firepower and you need to avoid large groups of people walking together. Always be alert

[HoreTore]

The problem with bringing in people from the 3rd world is that they bring the 3rd world with them. I'm in favor of immigration and freedom from oppression, jobs, and education for everyone, but in the US we balance it with having everyone armed to the teeth on their walk to the store or to Church. It is a hedge. Sorry that you felt the brunt of multikulti firsthand.

I don't think it's a very good idea to turn this into an immigration thread when Swedish football fans just whacked one of their own this weekend.

It seems the 3rd world was already present in Sweden before any immigrants came over.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I don't think it's a very good idea to turn this into an immigration thread when Swedish football fans just whacked one of their own this weekend.

It seems the 3rd world was already present in Sweden before any immigrants came over.

You be the judge. In the US, the vast majority of violent crime exists in areas with the highest levels of immigrants due to their low educational attainment and place of origin. Those are also my favorite places because they represent where successful decent people work the hardest to elevate themselves.

For the record, I turned it into an self defense/gun rights discussion first. Multiculturalism is the just the catalyst I'm using to convince people to defend themselves from the important experiment that their governments are running. No racism, no interest in reducing immigration, just an interest in not having your ass kicked in public by knuckledraggers of all colors, shapes, and sizes.

[Fragony]

Knives won't help you unless you are Doug Marcaida, but they might get you killed. You need firepower and you need to avoid large groups of people walking together. Always be alert

Quik slice on the forehead is all it takes, there is so much blood pouring into their eyes that they can't do anything. If you can hit someone you can do that as well. It will only hurt their pride, you won't do any real damage. And yeah, did that. Had no problem with doing it, still don't. Thing is, you don't get picked if they can see that you will have absolutily no problem with doing that. And they can absolutily notice that.

[Montmorency]

but in the US we balance it with having everyone armed to the teeth on their walk to the store or to Church.

Hard to explain the low crime in areas with no guns, eh?


the vast majority of violent crime exists in areas with the highest levels of immigrants

A blatant falsehood.

For someone who lives around NYC, you sure have to ignore a lot of stuff to construct your worldview...

[Andres]

So sorry to hear about this. What a bunch of cowardly bastards.

I truly hope for a speedy recovery for you, physically and mentally.

[Sigurd]

Sigurd, Seems like you were lucky, or very fast?

I was 20 and had just finished military training. My self-image was "invincible". These were native Scottish alley cats.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Hard to explain the low crime in areas with no guns, eh?



A blatant falsehood.

For someone who lives around NYC, you sure have to ignore a lot of stuff to construct your worldview...

I've never heard of anyone being jumped by roving white youths where I'm from. That may be different in other areas of the country. I have been reading about lower rates of crime for first generation immigrants to be fair, but violent crime rates double that of the white population for 2nd generation Hispanics. I'm not sure what to think. Most of the crime problems where I come from black youths rather than immigrants, whose rate of violent crime is somewhere on the order of 4-6x the rate of whites, but Eastern European criminal activity is crazy in NYC, but most of it is fraud related.

I like the kinds of Hispanic immigrants that we get here on LI. They are generally hard working and great. I hear that it is much worse in areas bordering Mexico.

None of my friends have ever been in jail. Ever. In fact, none of them have even been pregnant before getting married which is even wielded. But a few of them have had their asses kicked by minorities, so my personal anecdote is worth something to me.

[Montmorency]

but [ex-Soviet] criminal activity is crazy in NYC.

I think this may be outdated. But I will grant that in the US organized-crime groups have tended to arise from the first generations of large, cohesive immigrant groups.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I think this may be outdated. But I will grant that in the US organized-crime groups have tended to arise from the first generations of large, cohesive immigrant groups.

I've changed my post a bit to more closely match my understanding

[ICantSpellDawg]

I think this may be outdated. But I will grant that in the US organized-crime groups have tended to arise from the first generations of large, cohesive immigrant groups.

For me, assimilation is mandatory. If I see a polite person with a unique cultural background I am instantly drawn to them. People naturally assimilate with their surroundings. If you leave people in the ghetto, they assimilate into the ghetto.

Assimilation doesn't mean Asian people become twinkies or black people become oreos. It means they get a bit lighter as I get a bit darker. Both cultures change, it is our job to ensure that both cultures change for the better.

And also that everyone has a sweet gun collection and is constantly armed.

[Fragony]

For me, assimilation is mandatory. If I see a polite person with a unique cultural background I am instantly drawn to them. People naturally assimilate with their surroundings.

Why should they? I really don't mind it if they don't, we have no right to tell them how and what to think. No obligation either, quid pro quo.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Regarding ICSD's points:

Multiculturalism, aka an integrated identity, is something for which to strive. Assimilation, at least in academese, is the term used to denote the immigrant being forced to discard their parent culture and adopt the new host culture. Ideally, we would want them to embrace both as an integrated whole or at least "code switch" in an appropriate fashion so that they can enjoy both their culture of origin and the dominant culture of the community to which they have come. Of course, this level of benign integration is the most challenging. I suspect that you are using "assimilate" in this latter fashion.

There are huge problems with economically challenged immigrants, particularly when they come from a culture that has a fairly different set of values. I want to be clear, though, that race has nothing to do with it. The whites from Italy and Ireland in Hell's Kitchen, or Southie, or the Five Points were just as quick to form gangs and embrace hooliganism and "getting even" violence as were the Chinese in Chinatown in San Francisco or the Cubans in Miami. And we are all well aware that you don't need immigrants to form gangs or beget groups of hooligans and street thugs.

Two things that have to be considered:

Slowing the rate of immigration to a level that spurs economic growth but does not greatly surpass the rate of employment growth in the host economy. Lack of opportunity has always been associated with criminality.

Enhancing the police ability to suppress such things -- though be aware that suppression will involve police abuses as well since suppressive strategies feature a more overt and prominent role for police officers on the streets of the community. Also more costly on the tax payer.

[SwordsMaster]

Sorry to hear that Kad. Hope you recover your hand fully - you'd be amazed at what your body can do.

Random violence is scary in that it is random. We logically understand gang wars, or real wars, but being a victim of violence without provocation is upsetting. A powerlessness comes with it - a sense that nothing you could have done would have made it turn out any different. I have been in an unpleasant situation before, and now get really paranoid about areas where i might get attacked to the point I don't stop at traffic lights at night in some areas if i don't feel i really have to.

All I can say is pay attention to your surroundings always, and leave checking your phone for when you're in a place you know to be safe. Of course hindsight is always perfect.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Regarding ICSD's points:

Multiculturalism, aka an integrated identity, is something for which to strive. Assimilation, at least in academese, is the term used to denote the immigrant being forced to discard their parent culture and adopt the new host culture. Ideally, we would want them to embrace both as an integrated whole or at least "code switch" in an appropriate fashion so that they can enjoy both their culture of origin and the dominant culture of the community to which they have come. Of course, this level of benign integration is the most challenging. I suspect that you are using "assimilate" in this latter fashion.

There are huge problems with economically challenged immigrants, particularly when they come from a culture that has a fairly different set of values. I want to be clear, though, that race has nothing to do with it. The whites from Italy and Ireland in Hell's Kitchen, or Southie, or the Five Points were just as quick to form gangs and embrace hooliganism and "getting even" violence as were the Chinese in Chinatown in San Francisco or the Cubans in Miami. And we are all well aware that you don't need immigrants to form gangs or beget groups of hooligans and street thugs.

Two things that have to be considered:

Slowing the rate of immigration to a level that spurs economic growth but does not greatly surpass the rate of employment growth in the host economy. Lack of opportunity has always been associated with criminality.

Enhancing the police ability to suppress such things -- though be aware that suppression will involve police abuses as well since suppressive strategies feature a more overt and prominent role for police officers on the streets of the community. Also more costly on the tax payer.


In practice, multiculturalism has resulted in ghettos. It's like Communism: nice idea, never works in practice.

Take a moment to think and it's obvious why - because nobody has two cultures, they may have a blended culture, but not two cultures within them. The political doctrine allows different groups to form their own cultural units within a society, this weakens the overall cohesiveness of the society and what happed to Kad is the logical result.

Kad: I don't think it was a "hate crime" I think they just attacked you because you weren't "one of them".

Which frankly, is a daft situation for a Swede to be in in Sweden.

Same applies to the bronzes on the War memorials here - the way we're brought up, you'd basically have to be a socio-path to be able to do that - but a foreigner doesn't care about our cult of rememberer, so he can steel a 100-year old figure of Christ or the plaque listing the names of the Fallen without feeling anything.

[Fragony]

Can I get my points. I have been warning for this for years.

[SwordsMaster]

In practice, multiculturalism has resulted in ghettos. It's like Communism: nice idea, never works in practice.

Take a moment to think and it's obvious why - because nobody has two cultures, they may have a blended culture, but not two cultures within them. The political doctrine allows different groups to form their own cultural units within a society, this weakens the overall cohesiveness of the society and what happed to Kad is the logical result.

Kad: I don't think it was a "hate crime" I think they just attacked you because you weren't "one of them".

Which frankly, is a daft situation for a Swede to be in in Sweden.

Same applies to the bronzes on the War memorials here - the way we're brought up, you'd basically have to be a socio-path to be able to do that - but a foreigner doesn't care about our cult of rememberer, so he can steel a 100-year old figure of Christ or the plaque listing the names of the Fallen without feeling anything.

A logical result? I can't agree. I have lived in a neighbourhood where the most dangerous and violent people were the neo-nazi Real Madrid supporters. Immigrant gangs originated to defend against their attacks rather than to attack others. Eventually most of them (both neo-nazi and immigrant gangs) evolved into drugs and random violence, but that was absolutely not how it began.

I could postulate that generalisation creates violence.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Can I get my points. I have been warning for this for years.

It's a Cassandra thing. If your prognostications are wrong, you get reviled for the inanity of your predictions. If you are later proven correct....you are reviled even more.

Internet justice, ain't it beee-ooo--tiful.

[Kadagar_AV]

About multiculturalism, I of course agree that the idea as is sounds good. Not as good as making a national country, where everyone love and support each other though (as much as can be expected).

Sweden used to be rather idyllic, I have no idea why we decided to tear it all up and instead import people from the worst cultures in the world, Somalia and Afghanistan comes to mind, also gypsys...

I don't get it.

Maybe because the average guy here is like HoreTore or Lars, who refuse to believe there is a problem even if they hear gunshots in their hallway.


About weapons and guns... Sure, we could of course build a society where to feel secure, one have to arm up resembling the marines in Aliens, and move in tactical formation down the streets.

That's not my idea of a idyllic society though.

Crimes like these used to be non-existant to extremely rare. If they happened, media would write all over about it, and police would concentrate their efforts to catch the criminals.

Today, people hardly raise an eyebrow.

I feel disgusted at what we have become.

Keep Sweden Swedish, and out with the lowlife immigrants (not talking about German Doctors here).

[HoreTore]

Sweden used to be rather idyllic, I have no idea why we decided to tear it all up and instead import people from the worst cultures in the world, Somalia and Afghanistan comes to mind, also gypsys...

You got beaten up by immigrants at the same time as another Swede was beaten to death by ethnic Swedes.

Go cry me a river.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I am sorry to hear about this, Kad. Try not to let yourself become hateful of it - it is a human reaction but not a good one.

IMO such random violence is a result of social bonds breaking down. People don't respect other people any more, they can't identify with each other, they live in different worlds and don't have any sort of shared experience of life. Immigration plays a part in this process, but it only a small part of the story. I blame anything that creates division in society - where people stop becoming human beings, and become labels - a 'chav' or a 'toff', a 'dole-scrounger' or a 'snob', a 'Paki' or a 'cracker', a 'hun' or a 'taig', or whatever. Because when you see people as labels, you don't consider the human pain they feel when you inflict it on them, all you see is whatever the particular label you give them denotes.

Immigration might create a very visible divide in society due to skin colour etc, but really all the above is going to be on some level a side effect of urban society. It's because of the monkeysphere (http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html). As human beings, we are capable of recognising an extended group of about 150 people as being our co-humans, and any people beyond that core 150 are seen as completely one-dimensional characters that have no existence beyond whatever it is we see them doing, or know them for in our own lives. Hence I feel that to you, an Arab immigrant is not a person with parents and children and a life story, he is in fact just a threat. Likewise, to an Arab immigrant, you are not an teacher and ski-instructor that loves history and women from many different countries, you are in fact just a walking cash machine.

I guess the only solution would be to return to living in smaller communities with more organic social ties, but that is just hopeless romanticism.

[HoreTore]

I guess the only solution would be to return to living in smaller communities with more organic social ties, but that is just hopeless romanticism.

Yeah, bringing back shaming, hushed whispers and social exclusion whenever someone doesn't conform to the norm is a brilliant idea.

[Kadagar_AV]

You got beaten up by immigrants at the same time as another Swede was beaten to death by ethnic Swedes.

Go cry me a river.

I don't see your logic here. We don't have an immigrant problem, and I shouldnt whine for being assaulted, because another guy died this week? Perpetrator is unknown btw, might well have been an immigrant.

I really, REALLY fail to see you having any point what so ever.

[HoreTore]

I don't see your logic here. We don't have an immigrant problem, and I shouldnt whine for being assaulted, because another guy died this week? Perpetrator is unknown btw, might well have been an immigrant.

I really, REALLY fail to see you having any point what so ever.

The perpetrators are identified as casuals, and they're almost all ethnic Swedes(as are most football fans in general, immigrants support Barcelona).

I don't care about your whining, what I do care about is how you twist it from a crime problem to an immigration and cultural problem, coupled with neo-nazi slogans.

Considering that your fellow Swedes showed their true character this weekend, I find the timing of your reference to idyllic Sweden hilarious.

[HoreTore]

In related news, this (http://www.vg.no/sport/fotball/svensk-fotball/pubeier-bare-flaks-at-ikke-flere-doede-her-i-helgen/a/10138938/)is what it looks like when a group of fine, young Swedish gentlemen visits a pub.

I can see why people don't want to ruin this idyllic society.

[Kadagar_AV]

The perpetrators are identified as casuals, and they're almost all ethnic Swedes.

I don't care about your whining, what I do care about is how you twist it from a crime problem to an immigration and cultural problem, coupled with neo-nazi slogans.

Considering that your fellow Swedes showed their true character this weekend, I find the timing of your reference to idyllic Sweden hilarious.

HoreTore, first of all, immigrants viciously attacking ethnic Swedes are far more common than the other way around. Even IF, and that's a big "IF", the hooligans killing that man were Swedes, it doesnt change the statistics.

Secondly, what makes you think the perpetrator was an ethnic Swede? Helsingborg is full of arabs and south-of-Sahara-Africans.

Looking at Helsingborg at large and its modern demographics, I give it 50/50 odds that the perp was immigrant.

Why so eager to jump to conclussions? I guess because it's so rare with Swedish perps in horrible assaults like this, that you take any half-arsed chance you have to support your completely failed political beliefs?

Patethic. At least wait till you know who did it before you start screaming "Swedish Murderer!!" Mmmmmmmmkay?

[Kadagar_AV]

In related news, this (http://www.vg.no/sport/fotball/svensk-fotball/pubeier-bare-flaks-at-ikke-flere-doede-her-i-helgen/a/10138938/)is what it looks like when a group of fine, young Swedish gentlemen visits a pub.

I can see why people don't want to ruin this idyllic society.

Rare happenings does not change statistics HT. I never said Sweden doesn't have our share of idiots, I just wonder why we import people we know are professional at it.

Also, I think that link just said it was supporters, nothing about it being ethnic Swedes... Or do you just assume it's Swedes when perp is unknown, even when statistics would lean the other way?

Seems kind of.... stupid...

[HoreTore]

HoreTore, first of all, immigrants viciously attacking ethnic Swedes are far more common than the other way around. Even IF, and that's a big "IF", the hooligans killing that man were Swedes, it doesnt change the statistics.

Secondly, what makes you think the perpetrator was an ethnic Swede? Helsingborg is full of arabs and south-of-Sahara-Africans.

Looking at Helsingborg at large and its modern demographics, I give it 50/50 odds that the perp was immigrant.

Why so eager to jump to conclussions? I guess because it's so rare with Swedish perps in horrible assaults like this, that you take any half-arsed chance you have to support your completely failed political beliefs?

Patethic. At least wait till you know who did it before you start screaming "Swedish Murderer!!" Mmmmmmmmkay?

Rubbish.

Swedish football fans are, like Norwegian, Finnish and Danish fans, predominantly natives. Nothing strange about that: since our leagues sucks monkeyballs, the only ones who would watch it are those people who do so for reasons other than football(ie. tradition and so on). Immigrants rarely have this, and so prefer to watch real football instead of our pathetic leagues. The casuals firms I know in Norway(ISKO and Fineste) are all ethnic Norwegians. I have no reason to believe Sweden is different.

My source for this claim? 27 years of being a die-hard football fan. Which you appear not to be. Have fun flicking through footage of HIF and DIF supporters. Playing "spot the darkie" will be a hell of a lot harder than finding Wally. Here (http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2014/3/30/1396198311896/Djurgarden-supporters-011.jpg) is a good start, from the match this weekend.

That you refer to Swedish football violence as a "rare happenings" just shows how blinded you are by your racism. Swedish football hooliganism is right up their with England in 80's now. This weekend's death was merely the latest and most brutal event. It was the logical climax of years of fighting, someone was bound to get killed eventually.

This is the true face of your idyllic ethnicity. It fails. Hard.

But do continue to cry "but they're all immigrants" if that makes you sleep at night. Pathetic.

EDIT: Oh look, more upstanding Swedish gents (http://www.dagsavisen.no/verden/hoyreekstrem-vold-ryster-sverige/) upholding honour and virtue in the land. You're going to tell me it's a 50/50 chance they were immigrants as well, eh?

[Kadagar_AV]

Rubbish.

Swedish football fans are, like Norwegian, Finnish and Danish fans, predominantly natives. Nothing strange about that: since our leagues sucks monkeyballs, the only ones who would watch it are those people who do so for reasons other than football(ie. tradition and so on). Immigrants rarely have this, and so prefer to watch real football instead of our pathetic leagues. The casuals I know in Norway(ISKO and Fineste) are all ethnic Norwegians. I have no reason to believe Sweden is different.

My source for this claim? 27 years of being a die-hard football fan. Which you appear not to be. Have fun flicking through footage of HIF and DIF supporters. Playing "spot the darkie" will be a hell of a lot harder than finding Wally.

That you refer to Swedish football violence as a "rare happenings" just shows how blinded you are by your racism. Swedish football hooliganism is right up their with England in 80's now. This weekend's death was merely the latest and most brutal event. It was the logical climax of years of fighting, someone was bound to get killed eventually.

This is the true face of your idyllic ethnicity. It fails. Hard.

But do continue to cry "but they're all immigrants" if that makes you sleep at night. Pathetic.

You fail to understand that Sweden has accepted like what? 10 times as much immigrants as Norway?

In the 90's, you would have been correct that "darkies" were far apart among the supporters, but hardly today. Specially in football, which is an immigrant sport. Hockey fans are still rather ethnic, though.

Also, the more violent fans tend to be darkies... So there is that as well.

I am not saying that it's impossible that it's Swedes who are the perps, I am saying that it's stupid to accuse them of being Swedes untill you know it is so, when statistics would give it more of a 50/50 chance. Eveen you should be very much able to understand this VERY simple fact, if not I shiver when I think that you teach children.

Again, pathetic. Your argumentation doesn't hold for any type of scrutiny what so ever.


EDIT: I dont think Norways immigrants have had the "Zlatan" effect we see in Swedens youths. Basically, every arab, african and their mother are kicking ball these days.

[Rhyfelwyr]

To offer what anecdotal evidence I can, as somebody who has lived in (or around) Glasgow and Belfast, I have experienced my fair share of run-ins (somehow I've not gotten into an actual fight) with people and not once has it been with an immigrant. Of course, these two cities have notorious crime problems that predate the modern waves of immigration, and they also have relatively low immigrant numbers for UK cities. But you still get problems there as I have seen.

Latest incident was about a month back coming back from work on the train (was working backshift), and some kid, maybe 15 or so, who is covered in blood started doing some sort of techno dance in front of the carriage window as if left from my platform, then came up to me asked me if I had ever been stabbed. I said "are you alright" or something to that effect, and he was quite placid, turns out he had taken LSD and had tried to cut his finger off. Stabbings happen all the time here so I was expecting things to happen there and then, I felt sorry for him because he seemed like a nice kid after I talked to him a bit walking down the steps.

But as Sigurd will tell you, that is Glasgow for you.


Yeah, bringing back shaming, hushed whispers and social exclusion whenever someone doesn't conform to the norm is a brilliant idea.

I don't think that would happen, but even if it did, it is preferable to complete social breakdown, political alienation, cultural collapse, economic hopelessness, moral degeneration, and all the other fruits of this world that are experienced by those at the bottom.

[Kadagar_AV]

HT, you like maths, so let's be logical about it.

I bring up one anecdote supporting me, and I point to statistics supporting me.

You bring up one anecdote that mmmmmaybe supports you, and refuse to bother with overall statistics.

And then you claim that you are right? This is stupid on a scary level. Stop teaching math at once, you are being as logical as TotalRelism here.

[HoreTore]

You fail to understand that Sweden has accepted like what? 10 times as much immigrants as Norway?

In the 90's, you would have been correct that "darkies" were far apart among the supporters, but hardly today. Specially in football, which is an immigrant sport. Hockey fans are still rather ethnic, though.

Also, the more violent fans tend to be darkies... So there is that as well.

I am not saying that it's impossible that it's Swedes who are the perps, I am saying that it's stupid to accuse them of being Swedes untill you know it is so, when statistics would give it more of a 50/50 chance. Eveen you should be very much able to understand this VERY simple fact, if not I shiver when I think that you teach children.

Again, pathetic. Your argumentation doesn't hold for any type of scrutiny what so ever.

I would advise you to get a clue before you speak, as you are obviously talking about things you do not understand.

Immigrants do play football in Sweden. They also attracts immigrants as supporters. However, the clubs we are talking about are the likes of Syrianska, Assyriska, and so on. You know, the clubs founded by immigrants. Funnily enough, they all play in Superettan and are not known for hooliganism.

The teams with crap supporters, like the Stockholm clubs, Göteborg and so on, have supporters who are predominantly ethnic Swedes. The percentage of ethnic Swedes in the Ultras factions are especially high.



That you distinguish between hockey and football fans is just so clueless I'm wondering whether I should laugh or cry. Get a clue before you talk, son.

[HoreTore]

I don't think that would happen

Its alive and well in all small places.

[Kadagar_AV]

I would advise you to get a clue before you speak, as you are obviously talking about things you do not understand.

Immigrants do play football in Sweden. They also attracts immigrants as supporters. However, the clubs we are talking about are the likes of Syrianska, Assyriska, and so on. You know, the clubs founded by immigrants. Funnily enough, they all play in Superettan and are not known for hooliganism.

The teams with crap supporters, like the Stockholm clubs, Göteborg and so on, have supporters who are predominantly ethnic Swedes. The percentage of ethnic Swedes in the Ultras factions are especially high.



That you distinguish between hockey and football fans is just so clueless I'm wondering whether I should laugh or cry. Get a clue before you talk, son.

You still dodge overall statistics.

Anyway, go to Helsingborg and spend some time with the supporters. Lots and loads of Yugoslavians, arabs and whatnot. Norway havent had the Zlatan effect of Sweden, as I edited in before, every damn immigrant and their mother are playing ball these days.

I distinguish between hockey and football fans because... it's two distinct groups. Way, way, WAY more immigrants who bother with football.

Maybe not in Norway, but definitely so here in Sweden. Again, we don't share the same multicultural problems, as Norway has been way more moderate in their intake of immigrants.

GAH, like talking to a brick wall :wall:

[HoreTore]

I distinguish between hockey and football fans because... it's two distinct groups. Way, way, WAY more immigrants who bother with football.

This proves just how hopelessly ignorant you are of how supporter shenanigans work.

Get a clue. I would advise you not to comment on issues you have no knowledge of.

[Kadagar_AV]

This proves just how hopelessly ignorant you are of how supporter shenanigans work.

Get a clue. I would advise you not to comment on issues you have no knowledge of.

I have been to surely hundreds of both football and hockey games in my life, here in Sweden. I have seen how the demographic around football has changed, while hockey has remained about the same.

You seriously think your take on it from a Norwegian perspective trumps my hands on experience?

Immigrants don't care about hockey, they care about football. Thus, yes, the fanbase between hockey and football is very much different. Just because you support AIK in football, doesnt mean you have to support AIK in hockey.

[HoreTore]

I have been to surely hundreds of both football and hockey games in my life, here in Sweden. I have seen how the demographic around football has changed, while hockey has remained about the same.

You seriously think your take on it from a Norwegian perspective trumps my hands on experience?

Immigrants don't care about hockey, they care about football. Thus, yes, the fanbase between hockey and football is very much different. Just because you support AIK in football, doesnt mean you have to support AIK in hockey.

Swing and a miss.

Again, get a clue.

[Kadagar_AV]

Swing and a miss.

Again, get a clue.

What!? Have you started with drugs or something?

You are usually at least comprehensive, but in this thread your arguments are coco as cocopuffs.

Immigrants_do_not_care_about_hockey, they_care_about_football. What is it about that you don't understand?

[HoreTore]

What!? Have you started with drugs or something?

You are usually at least comprehensive, but in this thread your arguments are coco as cocopuffs.

Immigrants_do_not_care_about_hockey, they_care_about_football. What is it about that you don't understand?

....Which actually proves that the guys stirring up trouble at football stadiums are ethnic Swedes.

If you can't make the connection now, you are too ignorant on this subject to discuss it.

[Kadagar_AV]

....Which actually proves that the guys stirring up trouble at football stadiums are ethnic Swedes.

If you can't make the connection now, you are too ignorant on this subject to discuss it.

WHAT!?

We have much more problems around football games than hockey games.
We have much more immigrants watching football than hockey.

And in your viewpoint, that points towards it being the fault of the ethnic Swedes? :dizzy2:

:wall:

[HoreTore]

WHAT!?

We have much more problems around football games than hockey games.
We have much more immigrants watching football than hockey.

And in your viewpoint, that points towards it being the fault of the ethnic Swedes? :dizzy2:

:wall:

....And it is the average supporter who engages in hooliganism....?

Here (https://i55.tinypic.com/1zy7yn5.jpg) is a pic of the causal firm in question, by the way. Again, play "spot the darkie".

[Kadagar_AV]

....And it is the average supporter who engages in hooliganism....?

No, it's generally immigrants or Swedes borne and raised in immigrant ghettos, who have been culturally diseased.

Coco as cocopuffs... Your arguments are coco as cocopuffs... :dizzy2:

EDIT: Play "spot the Yugoslavian". Or spot "The Swedish kid ruined by immigration".

[HoreTore]

No, it's generally immigrants or Swedes borne and raised in immigrant ghettos, who have been culturally diseased.

Coco as cocopuffs... Your arguments are coco as cocopuffs... :dizzy2:

Firman Boys (http://www.sverigescenen.com/bilder/FbYb.jpg)
Young Boys (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/966/1331/320/YYY2.2.jpg)
Fanaticos Landskrona (https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8694/mb22.png)
Urban Boys (https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4730/sdc109982.jpg)
Wisemen (http://intefanvetjag.blogg.se/images/2010/wisemen-i-holland-2010_100609972.jpg)
Youth Crew (https://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2784/youthcrewxq9.jpg)
GAIS Yngre (https://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3739/gaisyngre2.jpg)
Hammarby KGB (http://oi39.tinypic.com/8vnsq0.jpg)

"Spot the darkie".

And for the sake of completion:
Fineste (http://g.api.no/obscura/API/image/r1/escenic/978x1200r/1207759705/archive/01825/20080409-184559-pi_1825084a.jpg)
ISKO (https://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c238/jokke1979/isko08.jpg)

[Kadagar_AV]

Firman Boys (http://www.sverigescenen.com/bilder/FbYb.jpg)
Young Boys (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/966/1331/320/YYY2.2.jpg)
Fanaticos Landskrona (https://img143.imageshack.us/img143/8694/mb22.png)
Urban Boys (https://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4730/sdc109982.jpg)
Wisemen (http://intefanvetjag.blogg.se/images/2010/wisemen-i-holland-2010_100609972.jpg)
Youth Crew (https://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2784/youthcrewxq9.jpg)
GAIS Yngre (https://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3739/gaisyngre2.jpg)
Hammarby KGB (http://oi39.tinypic.com/8vnsq0.jpg)

"Spot the darkie".

My previous answer stands. Spot the Yugoslavian or Swede ruined by immigrant surroundings.

BTW, the firms actually are rather good at attacking each other in a more controlled fashion.

Random violence is more an immigrant thing.

[HoreTore]

My previous answer stands. Spot the Yugoslavian or Swede ruined by immigrant surroundings.

BTW, the firms actually are rather good at attacking each other in a more controlled fashion.

Random violence is more an immigrant thing.

This is laughable.

The ignorance is staggering.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Yeah, bringing back shaming, hushed whispers and social exclusion whenever someone doesn't conform to the norm is a brilliant idea.

No, that would also be taking it too far. We need a balance between shaming and shameless, neither of which is healthy on a societal level.

We need to review those things in the past of our societies that did seem to work, and find a way to keep the valuable bits without keeping the brutalism and insularity.


And PVC, I generally think that you are right. I think that cultural "hybridism" is a lot more attainable than true integration. Integrations is, I believe, a multi-generational process.



Overall, Kadagar is speaking for a lot of people on this issue and not without some reason behind it. How do you address those valid concerns WITHOUT going Neaderthal on the whole issue? Cause yes, nativism sucks, but it is hardly a surprising response given episodes like the one described.

[Myth]

Kad gets assaulted by a gang of Africans and Arabs. Something something football hooligans and Kad has to get a clue and mix it up and love all races and stop being a Nazi.

Yeah, seems all is running as usual in the BR.

Kad, is there any chance to organize a group of fine tough men and exact personal justice? You know how in the USA they say "What would Jesus do?" well... what would Thor do? I know this is bad advice, but I'd do some recon, see how they organize, how much backup they could get, then divide them and surround them in groups of 1 or 2 and beat them into a pulp with a 10 on 1 numerical advantage. Pipes, bats, steel chains and other amenities will be liberally used. To please the liberals.

[Sarmatian]

My previous answer stands. Spot the Yugoslavian or Swede ruined by immigrant surroundings.


How do you actually distinguish a Yugoslavian from a Swede, based on a picture?

[Kadagar_AV]

Kad gets assaulted by a gang of Africans and Arabs. Something something football hooligans and Kad has to get a clue and mix it up and love all races and stop being a Nazi.

Yeah, seems all is running as usual in the BR.

Kad, is there any chance to organize a group of fine tough men and exact personal justice? You know how in the USA they say "What would Jesus do?" well... what would Thor do? I know this is bad advice, but I'd do some recon, see how they organize, how much backup they could get, then divide them and surround them in groups of 1 or 2 and beat them into a pulp with a 10 on 1 numerical advantage. Pipes, bats, steel chains and other amenities will be liberally used. To please the liberals.

I'd love that, and have some friends who would help.

However, I haven't got the faintest idea where to start looking for them. "Entire Stockholm subway and commuter train network" is as you understand a somewhat overwhelming search area, and just because I spot an immigrant gang, it doesnt have to be them.

They strike when there are no witnesses, so even if I was able to identify someone (which I'm not), they wouldnt do anything if others were around.

I guess I'll just do what all Swedes who have been in a similar position does, clench my hand silently and then vote for the most racist party that still have a chance to get in to government.

There is a reason the Swedish Democrats (rather but not fully racist) have gone from nowhere to our third biggest party in just a few years. I think this election they will get 10-15% of the votes.

With some luck, none of the other blocks will get their own majority, making them dependent on SD.

I don't think 10-15% of the population has suddenly turned racist, I think it's situations like this that make people vote that way, or the mom who see her son come home for the third time without his smartphone.

I miss the Sweden I grew up in, where the front door was unlocked and the bike stood outside.

[Kadagar_AV]

How do you actually distinguish a Yugoslavian from a Swede, based on a picture?

My point was, you cant.

Zlatan is one of the worlds best football players (if not the best), his success have made every Yugoslavian kid dream of becoming the next him (as Zlatan is Yugo-immigrant).

Basically, every single Yugoslavian in Sweden is hardcore into football, I think our youth national team has about 50/50 Yugos.

[Husar]

Can I get my points. I have been warning for this for years.


It's a Cassandra thing. If your prognostications are wrong, you get reviled for the inanity of your predictions. If you are later proven correct....you are reviled even more.

Internet justice, ain't it beee-ooo--tiful.

Wait, a single incident proves that Fragony was right all along? Is anecdotal evidence the new internet hipster thing?

Is it really that hard to see that white people and non-immigrants can be violent, too?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10495074/Germany-says-hundreds-of-unsolved-killings-may-be-linked-to-neo-Nazi-group.html

It just doesn't make the news as much apparently as scary immigrants sell more papers.

[Kadagar_AV]

Wait, a single incident proves that Fragony was right all along? Is anecdotal evidence the new internet hipster thing?

Is it really that hard to see that white people and non-immigrants can be violent, too?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10495074/Germany-says-hundreds-of-unsolved-killings-may-be-linked-to-neo-Nazi-group.html

It just doesn't make the news as much apparently as scary immigrants sell more papers.

I don't think anyone claims white people cant be violent.

I already stated in this thread that every culture and nation has its fair share of idiots. I just wonder why we have to import people from absolutely scum cultures, thus increasing the amount of idiots.

It's about OVER-REPRESENTATION, that's why I have a problem with immigrants.

They still have an OVER-REPRESENTATION when you remove social-economical factors. See the problem?

Another problem is of course that quite some immigrant groups will never serve another purpose in society than being at the very bottom socio-economicly (It's not like many Somalis will be rocket-engineers anytime soon), so basically we are importing raised crime.

[HoreTore]

More than one in every five young Swedes are unemployed.

But I'm sure that doesn't matter, let's continue discussing culture(race).

....And about "rocket scientists".... While you Swedes are naturally to daft to have a space program, we will have to look at alternate "smart-guy" professions. What does your average med-student look like, Kad?

[Sarmatian]

My point was, you cant.

Zlatan is one of the worlds best football players (if not the best), his success have made every Yugoslavian kid dream of becoming the next him (as Zlatan is Yugo-immigrant).

Your point was, if I understood it correctly, is that the reason football fans are more violent than hockey fans in Sweden, since hockey fans are mostly ethnic Swedes while immigrants are more into football. That doesn't really make sense.


Basically, every single Yugoslavian in Sweden is hardcore into football, I think our youth national team has about 50/50 Yugos.

That's got more to do with the fact that you guys suck at football.

[Kadagar_AV]

More than one in every five young Swedes are unemployed.

But I'm sure that doesn't matter, let's continue discussing culture(race).

I just said, quite some immigrant groups are still over-represented when you account for socio-economical factors.

I also just said, that many immigrant groups will never reach anything but the lowest of socio-economical class because of their culture and background, so in effect we import crime.

Is that hard to get?

[Kadagar_AV]

Your point was, if I understood it correctly, is that the reason football fans are more violent than hockey fans in Sweden, since hockey fans are mostly ethnic Swedes while immigrants are more into football. That doesn't really make sense.



That's got more to do with the fact that you guys suck at football.

Bronze in WC '94, yey!! But yeah we suck. Not as bad as England, but we suck.

You understood my point correctly, more immigrants are into football, thus we have more problems around football than hockey games.

What doesnt make sense about that? please elaborate.

[HoreTore]

You understood my point correctly, more immigrants are into football, thus we have more problems around football than hockey games.

What doesnt make sense about that? please elaborate.

The simple fact that the hooligan firms who cause a stir at football matches also attend hockey matches.

Which you would have known, if you weren't ignorant on this issue.

[Kadagar_AV]

The simple fact that the hooligan firms who cause a stir at football matches also attend hockey matches.

Which you would have known, if you weren't ignorant on this issue.

HT, I'm honestly fed up discussing this with you here.

If it was the same hooligans, we would have as much problem in hockey as football, no? We don't.

REGARDLESS, immigrants ARE WAY OVERREPRESENTED WHEN IT COMES TO ASSAULTS AMONG OTHER CRIMES!!! Start talking about that and drop your absolutely ridiculous single example, that has nothing to do with OP, would you so please.

[Sarmatian]

Bronze in WC '94, yey!! But yeah we suck. Not as bad as England, but we suck.

You understood my point correctly, more immigrants are into football, thus we have more problems around football than hockey games.

What doesnt make sense about that? please elaborate.

I don't agree with HT here, I believe there's a difference between football fans and fans of most other sports. In England, most of the people who attend tennis matches are English and most of the people who attend football matches are also English. It's hard to explain different level of violence when ethnicity is the same.

Other sports lack the organized firms in general, and when they do have them, most of the time they're a continuation of a football firm.

So, Yugoslavians and other eastern Europeans, or darkies and Arabs, on the stands have little to do with that.

[HoreTore]

HT, I'm honestly fed up discussing this with you here.

This is how much I care about that:


If it was the same hooligans, we would have as much problem in hockey as football, no? We don't.

Nope, we do not. There are some occasional flares at hockey matches as well, but by and large they are peaceful.

That doesn't change the fact that it's the exact same persons we're talking about. If you want to know why they sit quietly at hockey matches while going bonkers at football matches, I suggest you ask them. As you have gone to "hundreds of hockey and football matches", you must know at least a couple of Ultras.

[Kadagar_AV]

This is how much I care about that:



Nope, we do not. There are some occasional flares at hockey matches as well, but by and large they are peaceful.

That doesn't change the fact that is the exact same persons we're talking about. If you want to know why they sit quietly at hockey matches while going bonkers at football matches, I suggest you ask them. As you have gone to "hundreds of hockey and football matches", you must know at least a couple of Ultras.

Kind of pathetic how you skipped the second part of my post, troll.

[HoreTore]

Kind of pathetic how you skipped the second part of my post, troll.

I'll deal with your other nonsense at a later time.

I prefer to deal with one ignorant argument at a time.

[Kadagar_AV]

I'll deal with your other nonsense at a later time.

I prefer to deal with one ignorant argument at a time.

So make a thread about football and hooliganism. It's not what we are discussing here.

I was attacked by arabs and blacks.

I complain that arabs and blacks are way more violent than ethnically Swedish persons, and I see it as a problem for Sweden at large.

You then bring up one incident with a unknown perpetrator to show... Something, and totally sidestep the question at hand.

You then refuse to discuss anything but that single incident with an unknown perpetrator, and you use it as "evidence".

That is known as trolling, and I have had enough of you.

EDIT: We have had our fights, but I always saw some respect or wink in the eye.

I get brutally attacked and humiliated, with damage that might well be irreparable. And you bring absolute trolling to the table?

Seriously, have had enough of you :flower: off

[HoreTore]

I don't give a rats arse about your attack. What I reacted to was your broad statement that Ethnic Sweden(tm) was an idyllic place of tranquility.

When you make such a claim, it is more than appropriate to bring up ethnic Swedes busy making Sweden into an idyllic place of Peace and Love. There are plenty of such exaples to choose from, but since hooliganism hit hard this weekend, that was the first thing to pop into my head.

That you are still too blinded by your racism to understand that football hooligans are almost all ethnic Swedes is laughable. That you believe you are competent enough to discuss hooliganism without even knowing an Ultra is hilarious.

Detached from reality. Nothing more than I would expect from a neo-nazi to-be.

[Kadagar_AV]

I don't give a rats arse about your attack. What I reacted to was your broad statement that Ethnic Sweden(tm) was an idyllic place of tranquility.

When you make such a claim, it is more than appropriate to bring up ethnic Swedes busy making Sweden into an idyllic place of Peace and Love. There are plenty of such exaples to choose from, but since hooliganism hit hard this weekend, that was the first thing to pop into my head.

That you are still too blinded by your racism to understand that football hooligans are almost all ethnic Swedes is laughable. That you believe you are competent enough to discuss hooliganism without even knowing an Ultra is hilarious.

Detached from reality. Nothing more than I would expect from a neo-nazi to-be.

Thank you for caring. Seriously, we have been on the same boards for close to 10 years, and that is what you bring to the table? Not very emphatic of you. Up till now I had a whole other view of you, misguided as it unfortunately was.

Sweden used to be more idyllic than it is, but of course every society always have its fair share of problems.

I know some ultras.

Again, :flower: off.

[HoreTore]

I know some ultras.

All yugoslavs, I suppose?

The amount of nonsense you have sprouted in this thread on this issue is staggering - from not knowing about the hockey/football mix, the belief that hooligan firms are made up of immigrants, to believing that casual firms don't do random violence - and so I find it extremely hard to believe that you have ever been a part of the culture.

[Kadagar_AV]

All yugoslavs, I suppose?

The amount of nonsense you have sprouted in this thread on this issue is staggering - from not knowing about the hockey/football mix, the belief that hooligan firms are made up of immigrants, to believing that casual firms don't do random violence - and so I find it extremely hard to believe that you have ever been a part of the culture.

Yeah, you still mistake Sweden for Norway.

The immigrants aint even disciplined enough to belong to a firm.

Sweden and Norways problems are not comparable, stop believing they are.

Also, :flower: off.

[Fragony]

Horrie I really like you, and I like liking you, but if you aren't willing to recognise that Kads is right you are a bit confused

[HoreTore]

Yeah, you still mistake Sweden for Norway.

The immigrants aint even disciplined enough to belong to a firm.

Sweden and Norways problems are not comparable, stop believing they are.

Also, :flower: off.

Sweden is seen as an example to aspire to among the Ultras in Norway, particularly AIK. I watched the Ultra culture grow in my time at the West Bank at Ullevål. I saw ISKO ruin our reputation and I saw Ikaros ruin our stands, with close cooperation with the Swedes. From that I do know what their Swedish role models are up to. You, however, quite obviously do not.

Here (https://www.facebook.com/groups/66179218034/) is a random example of a facebook group hailing Firman Boys. A grand total of 2 immigrant names, of which one is latino and the other sounds ex-soviet.

But I guess they're "culturally corrupted Swedes".... In other news, Scotland Yard has discovered that there is, in fact, not a single true Scotsman.

[Fragony]

Sweden is seen as an example to aspire to among the Ultras in Norway, particularly AIK. I watched the Ultra culture grow in my time at the West Bank at Ullevål, and from that I do know what their Swedish role models are up to. You, however, quite obviously do not.

Here (https://www.facebook.com/groups/66179218034/) is a random example of a facebook group hailing Firman Boys. A grand total of 2 immigrant names, of which one is latino and the other sounds ex-soviet.

But I guess they're "culturally corrupted Swedes".... In other news, Scotland Yard has discovered that there is, in fact, not a single true Scotsman.

Norway ain't Sweden, you are right in Norways case as there is certainly a hardcore right with all the bon-ton, and they sure are freaky, but that's kinda, well Norway

[Kadagar_AV]

Norway ain't Sweden, you are right in Norways case as there is certainly a hardcore right with all the bon-ton, and they sure are freaky, but that's kinda, well Norway

Can we please just ignore troll.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Wait, a single incident proves that Fragony was right all along? Is anecdotal evidence the new internet hipster thing?

Is it really that hard to see that white people and non-immigrants can be violent, too?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10495074/Germany-says-hundreds-of-unsolved-killings-may-be-linked-to-neo-Nazi-group.html

It just doesn't make the news as much apparently as scary immigrants sell more papers.

Actually, I was just poking fun at Frags, assuring him that we would find a way to lambast him regardless.

My more serious posts on the issue, see above, take a different tone. I think the race/culture label of itself is not relevant here. Immigration that creates a surfeit of urban poor begets this kind of thing. That was true when the immigrants were Turks in Germany, Libyans in Italy, Irish in Boston, or Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands. "Race," to the extent that that is a valuable discriminator at all, is not the point. If it had been a quintet of Connaught-born "trash" who'd felt oppressed by the Stodgy Lutherans of Sweden they might have targeted Kadagar in the same way.

The problems at hand are: controlling/deterring street crime and sensible immigration policy. Doesn't sound, from Kadagar's example (admittedly anecdotal in character -- but I am a qualitative researcher so I do not dismiss such) as though either is being well enough handled.

[HoreTore]

Norway ain't Sweden, you are right in Norways case as there is certainly a hardcore right with all the bon-ton, and they sure are freaky, but that's kinda, well Norway

The nazi groups are a lot larger in Sweden than they are in Norway. I still remember the hilarous nazi march in Trondheim a few years ago with half a dozen Norwegians marching with 50+ Swedish nazi who drove to Trondheim to help the Norwegians with their publicity stunt. Hilarious stuff, but only semi-related to hooliganism.

While football hooligans are way more likely to vote for far-right parties and a ton of nazi organizations have their roots in this culture, it's not entirely accurate to say that the hooligan firms are "hardcore right".

They are definitely almost entirely white, though.

[drone]

In other news, Scotland Yard has discovered that there is, in fact, not a single true Scotsman.

Scotland Yard is in London, they wouldn't know a true Scotsman if one glassed them in the face.

Sorry to hear about your hand, Kadagar, hope it gets better.

[Fragony]

Can we please just ignore troll.

Nah. I can kinda understand Horrie as in Norway there is actually something that can actually qualify as being facist, upper class, rich. Not idiotic flagwavers but a pretty powerfull network. But there is no such thing in Sweden, topic needs filter.

'Actually, I was just poking fun at Frags'

That's just mean

[HoreTore]

Nah. I can kinda understand Horrie as in Norway there is actually something that can actually qualify as being facist, upper class, rich. Not idiotic flagwavers but a pretty powerfull network. But there is no such thing in Sweden, topic needs filter.

I am not talking about neo-nazi's, though.

[Kadagar_AV]

Actually, I was just poking fun at Frags, assuring him that we would find a way to lambast him regardless.

My more serious posts on the issue, see above, take a different tone. I think the race/culture label of itself is not relevant here. Immigration that creates a surfeit of urban poor begets this kind of thing. That was true when the immigrants were Turks in Germany, Libyans in Italy, Irish in Boston, or Japanese in the Hawaiian Islands. "Race," to the extent that that is a valuable discriminator at all, is not the point. If it had been a quintet of Connaught-born "trash" who'd felt oppressed by the Stodgy Lutherans of Sweden they might have targeted Kadagar in the same way.

The problems at hand are: controlling/deterring street crime and sensible immigration policy. Doesn't sound, from Kadagar's example (admittedly anecdotal in character -- but I am a qualitative researcher so I do not dismiss such) as though either is being well enough handled.

In my perfect world, 10% of every nations population is immigrants, spread from all over the world.

That way cultural identities can be intact, different cultures can try different things, but still learn from each other.

So, that's how much "Nazi" I am.

Sweden however... *shivers*

Since I was born in 1980, 1/3 of new Swedes are no longer Swedes. That number accounts for nativity and immigration, and I count second generation immigrants as immigrants, but not third.

I was on a bus with my mother in one of the suburbs around Stockholm the other day. The buss was pretty full, and my mother was the only woman showing her hair.

Our immigration policy is EXTREME, and contrary to any other countries, we accept the immigrants others dont want.

The biggest political cry in Sweden is "EVERY HUMANS EQUAL WORTH", thus we accept the gypsys, the somalis, the afghans...

Nevermind they come to cheat us, nevermind they have no schooling, nevermind they look down on the society that feed them. They all have an equal worth.

I would LOVE to believe in "every humans equal worth", but when you start to talk about state finances and us accepting just so many an-alphabets, or how people fresh from a warzone just MAYBE have different needs, Sweden fail.

Heck, the latest dental-political-initiative completely failed to understand that people from Afghanistan might have other dental needs than a person raised with Swedish dental care.

I don't see myself as nazi, I would like to live in a society with other cultures. But heck, I want them other cultures to work in teh society I live in, and if they don't, I expect them to be on the backfoot. It's the same respect I give other cultures I dwell in.

[Kadagar_AV]

Scotland Yard is in London, they wouldn't know a true Scotsman if one glassed them in the face.

Sorry to hear about your hand, Kadagar, hope it gets better.

Thank you.

Scotland Yard has some history behind its name I believe.

It is also, most likely run by people more culturally close to Scots than, say, Somalis or Gypsys.

So the "True Scotsman" fallacy fails here.

I never said Swedes can't be a problem, I just wondered why we mass-import known problems.

[Fragony]

I am not talking about neo-nazi's, though.

Neither would I call them that, they have never not been nazi's, same crowd. But that's pretty exclusive to Norway really. You aren't really doing yourself a favour if you link that with populist ideas which come from genuine concerns. There are problems, they need to be discussed.

[HoreTore]

I never said Swedes can't be a problem, I just wondered why we mass-import known problems.

Funnily enough, your first response to an example of Swedes acting like monkeys is "must be immigrants".

When you add in how you refer to other people as "sub-standard", constant use of slurs, etc, something doesn't quite add up.

[HoreTore]

Neither would I call them that, they have never not been nazi's, same crowd. But that's pretty exclusive to Norway really. You aren't really doing yourself a favour if you link that with populist ideas which come from genuine concerns. There are problems, they need to be discussed.

Husar was the one who linked some nazi's, Frags.

I've been talking about hooliganism, not about anti-immigration ideologies.

[Fragony]

Husar was the one who linked some nazi's, Frags.

I've been talking about hooliganism, not about anti-immigration ideologies.

You talk about hooligans because you insist on relevating very real issues, yeah hooligans are a problem as well, granted. Isn't it a bit cruel to always be wanting to just dismiss things?

[Kadagar_AV]

Funnily enough, your first response to an example of Swedes acting like monkeys is "must be immigrants".

When you add in how you refer to other people as "sub-standard", constant use of slurs, etc, something doesn't quite add up.

No, I said the perp is unknown, and that it might well have been an immigrant. I then explained the difference between Norwegian and Swedish supporter culture. Go back and re-read.

I also have asked you gently and then forcefully and now UTTERLY clearly, please :flower: off.

You as a person have lost my respect completely. There is a time and a place for everything, and I had already earlier in the thread clearly stated that I'm in a vulnerable state.

We shared boards for 9 years HT, and "I don't give a rats ass" is what you bring to my incident.


NOTE to other forum members: Yes, I am vulnerable right now. Not so vulnerable that I can't take an honest or logical argument, but if you want to show your detest for me, please save it for a later date.

[Kadagar_AV]

Don't feed the troll

[HoreTore]

No, I said the perp is unknown, and that it might well have been an immigrant.

The guy was identified as a casual, and so the odds of it being an immigrant is very close to zero. Add in the fact that it was a group of three, and it's completely unlikely that all three were immigrants.


I then explained the difference between Norwegian and Swedish supporter culture. Go back and re-read.

....And it was this explanation which showed you haven't the faintest idea of what you're talking about.


There is a time and a place for everything

If you want a sympathy thread, stick to that. If you make nazi-light comments, expect to be called on it.

[Kadagar_AV]

The guy was identified as a casual, and so the odds of it being an immigrant is very close to zero. Add in the fact that it was a group of three, and it's completely unlikely that all three were immigrants.



....And it was this explanation which showed you haven't the faintest idea of what you're talking about.



If you want a sympathy thread, stick to that. If you make nazi-light comments, expect to be called on it.

Maybe I was unclear when I said :flower: off.

If you replace :flower: with a very common slang word for intercourse, you might very well finally understand what I mean.

[Fragony]

NOTE to other forum members: Yes, I am vulnerable right now. Not so vulnerable that I can't take an honest or logical argument, but if you want to show your detest for me, please save it for a later date.

Well if it makes you feel better, I don't like you really.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Horetore is accusing a lot of people of anecdote abuse, but seems to be prone to it himself. I look at statistics for my country. Violent crime is the purview of minorities by dramatic margins. Does this mean that ethnicity causes it? Nope, but ignorant desperation causes it and is made worse by each action which causes the natives to recoil. Reality and engagement are needed. Maybe pre-k and kindergarten - maybe immigration quotas and background checks for coming into the country. Maybe allowing law abiding Americans to carry firearms everywhere. Far right extremism isn't the answer, but living in a Scandinavian leftist-la-la-land probably isn't either

[Kadagar_AV]

Well if it makes you feel better, I don't like you really.

I think you do, and contrary to HT you are more than welcome to a beer and a couch in Stockholm :)

[Fragony]

I think you do, and contrary to HT you are more than welcome to a beer and a couch in Stockholm :)

Yeah I kinda lied

[Kadagar_AV]

Horetore is accusing a lot of people of anecdote abuse, but seems to be prone to it himself. I look at statistics for my country. Violent crime is the purview of minorities by dramatic margins. Does this mean that ethnicity causes it? Nope, but ignorant desperation causes it and is made worse by each action which causes the natives to recoil. Reality and engagement are needed. Maybe pre-k and kindergarten - maybe immigration quotas and background checks for coming into the country. Maybe allowing law abiding Americans to carry firearms everywhere. Far right extremism isn't the answer, but living in a Scandinavian leftist-la-la-land probably isn't either

That's sort of my belief as well... Let's be... moderate?

However, it feels weird being agreed by an USAnian... I mean, it's not like the Native Indians have a very positive view of what your immigration did for them.

If anything, your nation should serve as a warning example for other ethnic groups.

[HoreTore]

Horetore is accusing a lot of people of anecdote abuse, but seems to be prone to it himself.

Hooliganism involves a few hundred people every week, hardly anecdotal(but it would be, if I tried to make a claim that all Swedes are criminals). If you instead referred to my lack of statistics for the ethnic make-up of hooligan firms, well... Hooligan firms, being hounded by both clubs and police, do not reveal their identities and will certainly not reveal membership lists... I've provided "team photos" of half a dozen firms(remembering that the Swedish league consists of only 16 teams). I stopped there because I believed I had made my point; if you want team photos for the rest of the firms I can probably dig them up as well.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Hooliganism involves a few hundred people every week, hardly anecdotal(but it would be, if I tried to make a claim that all Swedes are criminals). If you instead referred to my lack of statistics for the ethnic make-up of hooligan firms, well... Hooligan firms, being hounded by both clubs and police, do not reveal their identities and will certainly not reveal membership lists... I've provided "team photos" of half a dozen firms(remembering that the Swedish league consists of only 16 teams). I stopped there because I believed I had made my point; if you want team photos for the rest of the firms I can probably dig them up as well.

Sports hooliganism is unique to Europe. People in the US have no idea what the hell is wrong with people who assault one another over soccer.

[Kadagar_AV]

Sports hooliganism is unique to Europe. People in the US have no idea what the hell is wrong with people who assault one another over soccer.

Why are we still discussing hooliganism?

Don't feed the troll.

Here's a thought, every nation should have 10% immigrants from all over the world. In a controlled manner.

What do you think about that?

[HoreTore]

Sports hooliganism is unique to Europe. People in the US have no idea what the hell is wrong with people who assault one another over soccer.

Can't be a hooligan without proper clubs, and the US doesn't have any....

[ICantSpellDawg]

Why are we still discussing hooliganism?

Don't feed the troll.

Here's a thought, every nation should have 10% immigrants from all over the world. In a controlled manner.

What do you think about that?

Sure. Controlled assimilation and cultural exchange is great. Immigrants do wonders for their host civilizations, but too much is bad for everyone. They came to our countries to be safe and have a future. It would suck if our countries became less safe and fell off of an economic cliff.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Can't be a hooligan without proper clubs, and the US doesn't have any....

Heckling only works if I have some idea what you are talking about. I have never seen anyone become heated about sports teams. White people in the US; where I live, are spineless, demure lightweights.

This is the perfect population to keep and bear arms - a population which de-escalates and avoids conflict is precisely the population which is best suited to arms.

[HoreTore]

Heckling only works if I have some idea what you are talking about. I have never seen anyone become heated about sports teams. White people in the US; where I live, are spineless, demure lightweights.

I feel an ownership towards my club. I grew up in it, I played for it, I have worked for it. It's been in my town for a century, and basically everyone I know in my town have the same connection to it as I do. The football league they play in are formed by the clubs. In the US, it's the other way around. The league forms the clubs, and the clubs are business franchises instead of community centers where people grow up.

Then add some crime, a sprinkle of gangs and drugs, top it off with alienation from society and voila; you have a hooligan.

It's honestly a case of Mah-rug beating Gar-gar who lives in the cave at the other end of the valley in the head with a club. Stone age mentality deluxe.

[Kadagar_AV]

Heckling only works if I have some idea what you are talking about. I have never seen anyone become heated about sports teams. White people in the US; where I live, are spineless, demure lightweights.

This is the perfect population to keep and bear arms - a population which de-escalates and avoids conflict is precisely the population which is best suited to arms.

That was a new and interesting take on it, cheers :)

Problem is though, if you start spreading weapons around in society, what makes them not go to other more ill-willed groups, if you accept multiple cultures in society?

I am sure you don't propose race-laws, where whites are allowed guns and negroes not.

I would absolutely love living in a white society where everyone could carry a gun. I honestly think that would be a very safe place to be. It's only when you start adding in other factors that the question get all muddled.

[Kagemusha]

Only thing you can apply to violence is more violence. I know a thing or two about street violence, More aggressive wins in the street. What happened to Kad could have happen to anyone. He did not have a say about it, as these '"tough guys " want to beat men as these pansies think of such. My unofficial advice is to gather few good friends and possibly some baseball bats. Not that i would ever advice violence.:shrug:

[Kadagar_AV]

Only thing you can apply to violence is more violence. I know a thing or two about street violence, More aggressive wins in the street. What happened to Kad could have happen to anyone. He did not have a say about it, as these '"tough guys " want to beat men as these pansies think of such. My unofficial advice is to gather few good friends and possibly some baseball bats. Not that i would ever advice violence.:shrug:

I'd love to, but I have no idea who they are (again)...

However, if my google-fu ever comes up with a verdict of a gang being accused of this exact crime, I cant promise I wont note their names and location down for future use.

I wouldnt call friends, but wait until we have a 1vs1 situation.

I am sergeant in the Swedish Arctic Rangers. I have trained Pencak Silat.

They gave me the courtesy of having no witnesses around, and gentlemanly as I am I would of course return the favour. They chose to bring friends, I chose to bring my old silat sticks.

Would have to leave doggy at home though, would never endanger him unless jumped upon.

[Montmorency]

Here's a thought, every nation should have 10% immigrants from all over the world. In a controlled manner.

So, uh, OWG enforcing a command economy and technocratically-driven population transfers? Maybe you've got a clue after all. :grin:


I would absolutely love living in a white society where everyone could carry a gun. I honestly think that would be a very safe place to be. It's only when you start adding in other factors that the question get all muddled.

Unfortunately, "white" is not a culture...

Ultimately, if your state has failed its under-privileged immigrants, it won't do to just blame the immigrants for being from 'incompatible cultures'. It's give and take.

One more thing: if you don't like Somalian immigrants, why do you generalize this animosity to all "Sub-Saharans"? They're all darkies, so a Liberian and a Kenyan might as well be the same as a Somalian? You know what we call this sort of thinking...

[ICantSpellDawg]

I feel an ownership towards my club. I grew up in it, I played for it, I have worked for it. It's been in my town for a century, and basically everyone I know in my town have the same connection to it as I do. The football league they play in are formed by the clubs. In the US, it's the other way around. The league forms the clubs, and the clubs are business franchises instead of community centers where people grow up.

Then add some crime, a sprinkle of gangs and drugs, top it off with alienation from society and voila; you have a hooligan.

It's honestly a case of Mah-rug beating Gar-gar who lives in the cave at the other end of the valley in the head with a club. Stone age mentality deluxe.

This is blatant nonsense. Sports is crap and I hate it with fury. Anyone who invests more than a jovial nod to a bunch of idiots getting worked up over a ball is a blithering lunatic. All of the things that you just said about gang war aggression over colorful shortshorts and a ball is insane nonsense to me.

I don't want to see only white people with guns, but I would love to see calm and rational people of all backgrounds with guns.

[Kadagar_AV]

So, uh, OWG enforcing a command economy and technocratically-driven population transfers? Maybe you've got a clue after all. :grin:



Unfortunately, "white" is not a culture...

Ultimately, if your state has failed its under-privileged immigrants, it won't do to just blame the immigrants for being from 'incompatible cultures'. It's give and take.

One more thing: if you don't like Somalian immigrants, why do you generalize this animosity to all "Sub-Saharans"? They're all darkies, so a Liberian and a Kenyan might as well be the same as a Somalian? You know what we call this sort of thinking...

Quite a lot of people think I've do got a clue. Welcome to the fold brother ;)

"White" is not a culture... But I don't mind loading the dice.

As to your last part, first of all, Libya is not Sub-Saharan. Secondly, Somalis are to Africa what Gypsys are to Europe. Or to put it even more blunt, Somalis is what other African cultures look down upon.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no big fan of African culture at large. But to then import the culture that Africa looks down upon...

I guess you call that line of thinking "Realistic".

[Montmorency]

Liberia, not Libya.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Kadagar,

My sincere condolences. I can't imagine the mental and physical pain. I hope and pray for your full recovery.

Best Regards,

Crazed Rabbit

[Kadagar_AV]

Kadagar,

My sincere condolences. I can't imagine the mental and physical pain. I hope and pray for your full recovery.

Best Regards,

Crazed Rabbit

Thank you, it means a lot.

[Sarmatian]

Sweden got off easy. You guys have only a few percents of eastern Europeans in the population. I live in a country where the population is 100% eastern European. I see 20-30 rapes and several dozens assaults every time I go to work.

The problem with your theory is that those eastern European countries have generally much lower level of violent crimes, assaults and rapes than Sweden. Even if you argue that it has more to do with under-reporting of crimes (which is certainly true), the difference is too large to ignore.

Taking into account different type of crimes, like murder (which can not be under-reported, the victim is there, the body exists), Sweden has more than Bulgaria and Romania.

Or if you want a different example, Scotland has much more violent crimes and assaults than England, and ethnicity of Scotland is 95% Scottish/British and 5% immigrants, while England is 85% English/British and 15% of various brown, black and Arabic people.

[HoreTore]

This is blatant nonsense. Sports is crap and I hate it with fury. Anyone who invests more than a jovial nod to a bunch of idiots getting worked up over a ball is a blithering lunatic. All of the things that you just said about gang war aggression over colorful shortshorts and a ball is insane nonsense to me.

Hey, I fully agree with you on this.

[Myth]

Wow, the senate is hard at debate today.

OK, since this topic is also about football hooligans, I'll give my view on the matter and then bugger off, because only my opinion is important to me and I don't read what others write because I'm so self-absorbed.

Every country has football hooligans. In Bulgaria they are 99% white, pure blooded Bulgarian youths, aged 15 to 25. Shaved heads, which are mostly empty and a lot of beer and testosterone. Their primary occupation includes: beating on the guy with a different coloured scarf than that of their own club, drinking beer, wrecking public property and taking police batons in the teeth.

They gather like the remnants of late classical antiquity tribes. Each tribe has its local warlord and they carry some banners and go to war. Seriously, they go to football games mainly to drink some booze and have a fight. I enjoy traveling the country in my car. They enjoy fighting. They admit it and everything.

Most of them are kids from the farthest blocks of Sofia, the mini-ghettoes where you can get mugged on a bus stop. Where just 10-15 years ago, if you went to highschool and had nice looking sneakers, you better know how to fight or you have to go back home barefoot. A lot of them are orphans, delinquents, or other such vulnerable kids - they lack education, they lack the motivation to be educated and the grow into ignorant and poor adults.

I have not done extensive research but I imagine the football hooligans in the UK or Turkey or wherever are the same. Heck, the English hooligans pride themselves on being superior hooligans. They are more hooligan-y than the scrub hooligans from other countries. Until they get stabbed for causing trouble in Turkey lol.

So, this part of society exists everywhere. It is not related to importing people of other ethnicity and culture who do not get integrated in your society but turn to similar medieval activities. But instead of beating on other like minded medieval tribesmen, they beat on regular upstanding citizens who actually contribute to the country. If they don't beat on them, they pickpocket, steal, jack cars and so on.

IMO the first rule of immigration should be: only allow those inside, who want to be a productive member of the society and who prove before hand that they can contribute, and who are then routinely monitored that they do so.

Also, there needs to be a stop to this hippie bullcrap of reverse discrimination, where a police officer can lose his job for manhandling a dark skinned person because "Le gasp! Le racism!". No, skin colour does not make one a criminal. But if one behaves as a criminal he should not get special treatment by law enforcement, just because we want to be politically correct, progressive, upstanding young liberal asshats.

[Fragony]

Sports hooliganism is unique to Europe. People in the US have no idea what the hell is wrong with people who assault one another over soccer.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xcyG8QTlqXk

How would you like your stea- I mean Europe sir, scorched or bloody, medium is unavailable I'm afraid

[Montmorency]

IMO the first rule of immigration should be: only allow those inside, who want to be a productive member of the society and who prove before hand that they can contribute, and who are then routinely monitored that they do so.


While I'm glad everyone's getting all authoritarian-statist here, that's clearly excessive and a waste of resources.

[Kadagar_AV]

While I'm glad everyone's getting all authoritarian-statist here, that's clearly excessive and a waste of resources.

Is it - when society is in free fall?

The Sweden I grew up in isn't the Sweden I live in now. And it hasn't changed for the better.


Myth, I honestly believe that the meeting of cultures, unless very harshly monitored, quite often leads to the worse of both (or all) cultures being enhanced.

Take the words "whore" or "slut"... When I was in school, those were words that were just no-no. A girl would claw your eyes out if you uttered them to her. Today, with the muslim influx, I doubt few girls can go through school without being called those words.

It's not because muslims treat their women like shit in their own cultures (well........), it's because it's the meeting of cultures that created the problem. Swedish feminism and dress codes meet muslim view on women and dress codes. It's easy to see where this goes wrong, and it explains why rapes are now the new cool thing to have in your psychological backpack as a hot young girl in Sweden.

In your example of Bulgaria, I guess the police are rather strict and baton-friendly when it comes to explaining where these juvenile criminals can and can't monkey up.

In Sweden, the police isn't baton friendly and thus that culture can roam free in society at large.

It's the meeting of cultures that creates culture-clashes, the cultures themselves mustn't necessarily be ill functioning as is.

[Myth]

The police are very strict when it comes to beating on ethnic Bulgarians.

See this article (http://svejo.net/2137408-40-000-politsai-shte-ohranyavat-dnes-27-04-2013-macha-levski-tsska) from last year. Translated, the title says: "40,000 police officers will be securing the Levski - CSKA football game"

Fourty thousand. Our entire regular army is 30, 000

They however, are neutered and can't enforce the law in the rural regions where we get reports of roma raping grandmothers, breaking into houses, stealing livestock in broad daylight and such. They don't lack the courage or the baton power, but they are stopped by the brass to avoid any misunderstanding with Brussels. No one wants to be bombed because they're oppressing the minority! However, this leads to the minorities oppressing the elderly and defenseless in the rural regions.

You know what's funny? When the son of a local Roma crime boss, known for the distilling of fake alcohol (i've had Jack Daniels which tasted like pig slop mixed with rubbing alcohol in the past) murdered a Bulgarian kid the football hooligans were the ones who went to defend the other people in that village. They also torched his place. The police beat only on the hooligans. IMO they should have beaten on all of them. I mean, the Roma deserve to not be discriminated against and be denied the police baton to the teeth!

bottom line: the police should be empowered to do their job and no drama would be had.

[Kadagar_AV]

The police are very strict when it comes to beating on ethnic Bulgarians.

See this article (http://svejo.net/2137408-40-000-politsai-shte-ohranyavat-dnes-27-04-2013-macha-levski-tsska) from last year. Translated, the title says: "40,000 police officers will be securing the Levski - CSKA football game"

Fourty thousand. Our entire regular army is 30, 000

They however, are neutered and can't enforce the law in the rural regions where we get reports of roma raping grandmothers, breaking into houses, stealing livestock in broad daylight and such. They don't lack the courage or the baton power, but they are stopped by the brass to avoid any misunderstanding with Brussels. No one wants to be bombed because they're oppressing the minority! However, this leads to the minorities oppressing the elderly and defenseless in the rural regions.

You know what's funny? When the son of a local Roma crime boss, known for the distilling of fake alcohol (i've had Jack Daniels which tasted like pig slop mixed with rubbing alcohol in the past) murdered a Bulgarian kid the football hooligans were the ones who went to defend the other people in that village. They also torched his place. The police beat only on the hooligans. IMO they should have beaten on all of them. I mean, the Roma deserve to not be discriminated against and be denied the police baton to the teeth!

bottom line: the police should be empowered to do their job and no drama would be had.

I am working on a thread about gypsys, to share with you all. So let's not dwell on that debate (I of course see your point though).

Do I read you right, when you agree that eastern European football hooliganism isn't the problem, as you there send more than your regular army to games, whereas it becomes a problem in Sweden, where we send "dialogue police" to matches.

Don't get me wrong, of course it's also a problem in your country.

But you do understand my view of it being the culture clashes that mainly creates problems?

I think Gypsys, as an example and again let's not dwell on it overly here - would cut their "burden on society" short if they lived in a strictly Gypsy society. Not that they want to, of course.

[Myth]

Yeap. To put it in perspective, something shady is happening with Syrian refugees on our territory. We were supposed to allow 5000 tops, only to stay for a while. Now we have about 10 times that nubmer and Brussels is already telling us how to integrate them in our society. Why should we? Greece closed off their borders for Syrian refugees. Bulgaria can't. It has to integrate them.

Why does Sweden have to turn into a melting pot and why is your police completely neutered? Same deal.

We have a saying here - "The one eating pie for free isn't crazy. The one giving it for free is." Your government wants the Sweden you live in now.

[HoreTore]

The Sweden I grew up in isn't the Sweden I live in now. And it hasn't changed for the better.

Bollox. (http://motargument.se/2013/10/25/myter-om-mord/)

The "Sweden you grew up in" was Sweden at its most violent. Nowadays, it's as peaceful as the 50's.

[Kadagar_AV]

Bollox. (http://motargument.se/2013/10/25/myter-om-mord/)

The "Sweden you grew up in" was Sweden at its most violent. Nowadays, it's as peaceful as the 50's.


YOU. MUST. BE. ON. DRUGS.

Nice leftist extremist blog, now go to BRÅ (the stately organ working with crime), violence statistics are shown there.

Heck, even a monkey would get it in a few minutes, so I expect an apology from you in, say, a few hours?

[HoreTore]

YOU. MUST. BE. ON. DRUGS.

Nice leftist extremist blog, now go to BRÅ (the stately organ working with crime)

Here ya go. (http://www.bra.se/bra/nytt-fran-bra/arkiv/nyheter/2011-05-17-dodligt-vald-minskar-.html)

A linkie from BRÅ stating the exact same thing.

But have fun with your blind fanaticism.

[Myth]

Can someone translate the jist of it for those of us who don't speak Viking? :viking:

[HoreTore]

Can someone translate the jist of it for those of us who don't speak Viking? :viking:

Basically:

The number of murders have been relatively stable since the 50's. There was a spike in the early 90's, which has now gone down to "normal" levels again. The largest groups of foreigners committing murders in Sweden are the feared roving gangs of Norwegians and Finns.

While you could blame the 90's spike on immigration, it was over very quickly and now things are back to normal. It would also change the immigrant group in question from Somalis and Afghans(they weren't here back then) to Vietnamese, Pakistanis, Syrians and Kurds.

However, the 90's spike also coincides with the end of the 80's economic boom and the financial crashes afterwards. Hmmm.......

[Kadagar_AV]

Can someone translate the jist of it for those of us who don't speak Viking? :viking:

I'll translate.

HT, states that violence has decreased, because less people are murdered these days.

I state that overall violence statistically have increased, but yes, criminals know that murder is one of those crimes where the police really still bother.


Take what happened to me as we're in this thread, they were not out to MURDER me. They were out to physically and mentally harm.

HT believes murder is the only manner to look at violence in a society.

I however note that other violence have gone up, and ascribe the lower murder percentage to everyone now watching CSI, and know they won't easily get away with it. Also modern medicine can save more people that would previously have died.

HT, will not touch any sort of violence statistics as he then get sad in the eye.

I however look at statistics and also have a "hands on" experience.

*OK, so I can jest about it, I think it was Gregoshi-worthy* :clown:



EDIT: CSI effect aside, HT also choose to forget that modern medicine can save a lot of lives that would before have been not-so-saved. Also edited it in where it belonged.

Seriously pathetic argument, HT.

[HoreTore]

Nonsense.

Murder is the sole definite crime statistic. We know about all of them. Every other statistic have huge dark figures, and so its usefulness is limited. We know that we only know about a fraction of them.

You can use it for arguing tendencies and such, but you must always be aware that there will be a ton of other explanations for your numbers than the one you choose to go with.

Murder is different. Murder is final.

The only assumption you need to make when it comes to murder, is the assumption that the number of murders in a society is a decent reflection of the level of crime in a country. Since we do not have a tradition of honour killings and such here, this is a reasonable assumption.

For other crimes, you need to make a ton of other assumption for your conclusion, which makes it a lot more uncertain.

[Kadagar_AV]

Nonsense.

Murder is the sole definite crime statistic. We know about all of them. Every other statistic have huge dark figures, and so its usefulness is limited. We know that we only know about a fraction of them.

You can use it for arguing tendencies and such, but you must always be aware that there will be a ton of other explanations for your numbers than the one you choose to go with.

Murder is different. Murder is final.

The only assumption you need to make when it comes to murder, is the assumption that the number of murders in a society is a decent reflection of the level of crime in a country. Since we do not have a tradition of honour killings and such here, this is a reasonable assumption.

For other crimes, you need to make a ton of other assumption for your conclusion, which makes it a lot more uncertain.

So you mean CSI have had no effect?

You mean modern medicine being able to save lives (thus no longer making it a murder) have had no effect?

You SERIOUSLY argue that society is better now, all other violence aside?

ARE. YOU. ON. DRUGS.

[HoreTore]

So you mean CSI have had no effect?

You mean modern medicine being able to save lives have had no effect, thus no longer making it a murder?

The number of solved vs unsolved murders are irrelevant. What matters is the absolute number of murders, solved or unsolved. Attempted murders have also remained the same.

So, no.

This is simply a case of fear-induced xenophobia.

[Kadagar_AV]

Attempted murders have also remained the same.

So, no.

https://affes.wordpress.com/tag/mordforsok/

I guess you are right.

No. Wait. You are absolutely lunatic. :dizzy2:

[Myth]

HT takes a logical but detached position on this. I favour Kad's hands on experience. Not necessarily because he would not have been mugged back in the 1980s, but because he remembers a time when people did not lock their doors and they had no beggars, much less pickpockets and thieves roaming around.

I've lived in Cyprus for a year, the Greek part of it. I don't know about murder statistics - they will probably be skewed because Limassol is the centre of operations for the Russian mafia there. I do know that people don't lock their cars and rarely lock their gates and doors, and that the only ones who steal citrus fruit from the gardens of their neighbors are dirty immigrants (like myself. We were poor students, life was hard). Granted, we only took a few lemons for the tequila shots, but it was theft nevertheless.

If someone tells me now that people in Cyprus are afraid to go out after dark and that they started locking their cars and putting chains on their scooters, I'd say the crime rate has gone way up, even if relatively the same number of people got killed per year.

So you both need to look into each other's arguments a bit IMO.

Something funny. A Roma kid is being offered 5 euro (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=735254919831592&set=vb.100000412711307&type=2&theater) if he can name capitals of countries. It's in bulgarian/turkish/roma languages but it's worth a watch. Kid knows his geography! TBH I would have failed at Switzerland, i'd have said Neuchatel probably instead of Bern. Shows how much I know.

[Beskar]

TBH I would have failed at Switzerland, i'd have said Neuchatel probably instead of Bern. Shows how much I know.

I would have thought the biggest mistake would be Geneva, perhaps maybe Zurich. I would have never even suggested Neuchatel.

[HoreTore]

https://affes.wordpress.com/tag/mordforsok/

I guess you are right.

No. Wait. You are absolutely lunatic. :dizzy2:

Hahahahaha. Oh dear, oh dear.

First of all, I thought we agreed to only link to BRÅ and not to some "extremist blogger"? My blog at least linked back to BRÅ to show what they based their article on. Your blog? Nothing.

Secondly, the supposed "master statistician"(you) show a fatal misconception when it comes to statistics. Graphs are only interesting when they are accompanied by text. on its own, a graph is worthless. The text is what matters, the graphs are only included to visualize the text.

So, here's what an actual link from BRÅ (http://www.bra.se/download/18.22a7170813a0d141d21800052646/1360329832670/03+Misshandel.pdf) says about the supposed increase in violence:


Årligen drabbas omkring 2–3 procent av Sveriges befolkning
av någon form av misshandel, enligt de större offerundersökningarna. Totalt sett har det under 2000-talet vare sig skett någon minskning eller ökning av andelen utsatta för misshandel.
Mellan 2000 och 3000 personer skrivs varje år in på sjukhusens
slutenvårdsavdelningar för skador orsakade av misshandel eller
ännu grövre våldsbrott. Trots stabila nivåer av misshandel enligt offerundersökningar och sjukhusdata de senaste 15–20 åren,
har antalet anmälningar om misshandel ökat kraftigt. Viktiga
förklaringar till det är enligt forskningen nya arbetssätt och rutiner inom polisen, samt en allmänt ökad uppmärksamhet på,
och en minskad tolerans mot, våldsbrott. Trots att alltfler misshandelsbrott anmäls är dock mörkertalet för brotten fortfarande högt.

(my bolding)

So, BRÅ states clearly that there has been no increase in the type of crime you were exposed to. Have fun.


HT takes a logical but detached position on this.

I've got some anecdotes as well, if you prefer that. Some years ago, I worked for Securitas, a security guard company. Now, before Kad goes all "Norway is different to Sweden!!111": this was at Holmlia, a suburb to the east of Oslo with a very high share of immigrants. It's routinely referred to as a ghetto, and with all the doom&gloom cries of increasing crime, you would expect it to be sky-high. And indeed, crime rates there are among the highest in the country.

Now, securitas classifies the businesses(like gas stations) they protect according to the frequency of robberies. The highest level of this classification are the "very high risk" spots, and there are quite few of those.

Now, what does it take to be classified as a high risk business? With all the cries of doom&gloom, you would expect it to be at least a robbery every year to get to the highest level....

But no, 2 robberies in a decade, and you get that classification.


a time when people did not lock their doors

What you're talking about is a change in the perception of the level of crime.

I see no reason to care about peoples perceptions.

[Kadagar_AV]

Look at the clear numbers HT. stop with political articles.

Your own source there just said that reported assault have gone massively UP. Do you read it being the same or better than before?

My source use raw data. He also clearly states where the numbers are from. That blog is absolutely not extremist, it's just an avid statician presenting data.

But I guess you hate reality. No?

[HoreTore]

Look at the clear numbers HT. stop with political articles.

Your own source there just said that reported assault have gone massively UP. Do you read it being the same or better than before?

My source use raw data. He also clearly states where the numbers are from. That blog is absolutely not extremist, it's just an avid statician presenting data.

But I guess you hate reality. No?

Ahahahahahahaha.

No, those are not the "raw numbers" of assaults taking places. Those are the raw numbers of assaults being reported to the cops. Which, by the way, is a distinction your disingenuous source doesn't mention.

If the increase in reported assaults equal an actual increase in assaults taking place, we would see an increase of assaults being reported on questionnaires and, even more so, in the number of people sent to the hospital.

BRÅ has checked both, and observed that the numbers there are stable. Thus, there is nothing else to do than conclude that the the increase in the number of reported assaults means that society has started to report these crimes to the police more often.

If you want to challenge this, you would have to look for evidence like people treating their broken bones at home. I do not expect you to find much.



Bad science and a lack of reasoning skills remains a hallmark of right-wing ideologies.

EDIT: By the way, your blog says this on its about-page:


Jag är ingen statistiker

"Avid statistician", indeed.

[Ironside]

Kadagar, have you moved since your childhood?

I'm asking, because it's not hard to find areas that fits your childhood memories today and it's not hard to find areas that would beat it to a bloody pulp in 1980.

Some changes are certainly general though, like outright street begging isn't that old.

[Fisherking]

Ahahahahahahaha...

Bad science and a lack of reasoning skills remains a hallmark of ideologs.




Fixed that for you.

If you think there is less skewing of facts on one side of the political spectrum than on the other it is only your personal bias.

It is only that the dominant viewpoint prefers to report on the dirty laundry of the other side than look at their own fallacies and misconceptions.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

However, it feels weird being agreed by an USAnian... I mean, it's not like the Native Indians have a very positive view of what your immigration did for them.

If anything, your nation should serve as a warning example for other ethnic groups.

Native Americans were on the short end of a whole bunch of techno/cultural value issues that set them up for a fall. Throw in a virgin field epidemic starting in the early 1500s and they never stood a chance. Different era, different mores.

On the whole though, aside from those who were sent here as property, ethnic groups of various creeds and colors manage pretty well in the USA. Far from perfect, of course, and we have our nativist naysayers along with our "embrace newcomers" inclusives. So far, the overall result has been pretty good and a little mutt like.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have just remembered.

Papa said that during his childhood the done thing was to see Laps as scum. Has Sweden progressed in hating black people like everyone else - or looking askance at them, at least?

You'll always have an out-group and that out-group will always prey on the weak or unwarry of the in-group.

Papa also said that in the US, 30 years ago, Indians appeared to be viewed the way Gypsies are in Europe.

His conclusion was that this is because people in the US met bad Indians and Swedes met bad Laps, now everyone meets bad Gypsies.

As always, Papa's wisdom is boundless - if a little blinkered.

[a completely inoffensive name]

My thoughts are with you Kad and I hope you make a full and speedy recovery. The regulars here can attest that I have not been kind with hearing Kad's arguments on race, but to dismiss his assault and call names is absolutely tactless regardless of his opinions derived from the matter. I am not the best person to be condemning angry name calling, but unacceptable behavior is unacceptable.

That being said, nostalgia for the past prays strongly on anyone dissatisfied with the present. For the US and other Western countries, crime rates peaked in the 1990s and have been declining ever since. At least in the case for the US, the ramp up of the War on Drugs and the start of incarceration on a truly massive scale makes the suggestion that lower numbers = everything is better now that we have more immigrants than ever, a very simple and ill thought out talking point and nothing more.

Race has nothing to do with it. It comes down to class and culture. Both of which are managed and cultivated through proper immigration control. By only accepting those who bring value (i.e, they posses skills, education) to the country, you reduce the risk of immigrants forming ghettos or otherwise lower socioeconomic blocks within urban areas. Through interviews and tight quotas you can limit those coming in to be the individuals who are more susceptible to assimilation then an individual who is only migrating to seek jobs that are nowhere to be found in his home country.

In order for multiculturalism to work you either go about it the US way, or the proper way. In the US, there was a long tradition of disrespect towards the Catholics and the Eastern Europeans and the Southern Europeans that assimilation was necessary if you wanted to survive. Learn English or we spit on you as you walk out the door. These conditions not surprisingly caused much violence between different ethnicities among urban areas where the ratio of available jobs to workers was smaller and highly sought after. The proper way is to be open and welcoming and respectful of all who come into the country, but making sure that those who do enter pass the test, which must be rigorous and to a high standard. The current European method of promoting openness while enforcing small standards on who enters is a recipe for disaster and only serves to generate a resentment to be exploited by right wing radicals.

[Hax]

One more thing: Kadagar, what you said about the inflation of the terms slut and whore, don't you think there's an other trend at work here? The fact that (hardcore) pornography has become so much more accepted over the last 20 or so years, due to which the perception of women (in general) has become so much more negative?

[Fragony]

One more thing: Kadagar, what you said about the inflation of the terms slut and whore, don't you think there's an other trend at work here? The fact that (hardcore) pornography has become so much more accepted over the last 20 or so years, due to which the perception of women (in general) has become so much more negative?

Far less accepted I'd say. Even mainstream movies used to have obligitary sex-scenes, porn used to be on the shelves at the supermarket, even kiddie-porn in the seventies if I must believe someone on Geenstijl who insists it was just for sale, I don't know if that's true, before my time. Soft-porn also used to be very normal on tv after nine. I see quite the opposite trend.

[HoreTore]

Far less accepted I'd say. Even mainstream movies used to have obligitary sex-scenes, porn used to be on the shelves at the supermarket, even kiddie-porn in the seventies if I must believe someone on Geenstijl who insists it was just for sale, I don't know if that's true, before my time. Soft-porn also used to be very normal on tv after nine. I see quite the opposite trend.

Watched any HBO lately...?

[Fragony]

Watched any HBO lately...?

I don't have tv here, but it was (here at least) very normal to have soft-porn on tv. Funnily enough most on FOX, that should amuse you. In the series of HBO that I have seen there is sex in at least yeah. But if you look at the films from the nineties and the eighties there is almost always a sex-scene, seems to be completily absent in Hollywood productions nowadays. In general I would disagree with Haxie that there is a trend towards more erotism, hardcore or softcore. Quite the opposite really.

Post made in context of looking differently at women.

[HoreTore]

I don't have tv here, but it was (here at least) very normal to have soft-porn on tv. Funnily enough most on FOX, that should amuse you. In the series of HBO that I have seen there is sex in at least yeah. But if you look at the films from the nineties and the eighties there is almost always a sex-scene, seems to be completily absent in Hollywood productions nowadays. In general I would disagree with Haxie that there is a trend towards more erotism, hardcore or softcore. Quite the opposite really.

Post made in context of looking differently at women.

I think we can say that there is less sex in action movies...

But I wouldn't agree that the terms "slut" and "whore" have changed to more conservative terms. I would say they have turned into everyday terms now, like the terms "stupid" or "dumbass". Ie. terms frequently said between friends as signs of affection as opposed to ill will. The scenario where one girl will jokingly call another girl "whore" without any ill intent is very common, starting around age 13.

[Hax]

Far less accepted I'd say. Even mainstream movies used to have obligitary sex-scenes, porn used to be on the shelves at the supermarket, even kiddie-porn in the seventies if I must believe someone on Geenstijl who insists it was just for sale, I don't know if that's true, before my time. Soft-porn also used to be very normal on tv after nine. I see quite the opposite trend.


In general I would disagree with Haxie that there is a trend towards more erotism, hardcore or softcore. Quite the opposite really.

Note: I'm not talking about whether or not (softcore) pornography has become more accepted on the TV, I'm talking exclusively about the internet here.

Just because there might be a taboo on discussing (hardcore) pornography in public doesn't mean that -- in the last twenty or so years -- the availability of such kind of pornography has rapidly become much more available. I don't think there's any 16-year old boy that hasn't browsed online pornography, and the depiction of women is far from positive. I think that if you want to look towards an answer on why it's become more socially acceptable to call girls "sluts" and "whores", I would sooner look at the depiction of women in media, rather than blaming Arab, African, or Islamic cultures.

[Fragony]

I have pet names for all my friends male and females, for my female friends (sorry non-dutchies) Lellebel, madammeke, my gay friends ouwe natte of rugridder, whatever seems funny at the time. But I don't call them sluts or whores, of kankerflikker. That's what is they hear on the street though, guess by who.

[Hax]

hurr durr arabs are to blame for everything gone wrong the last 30 years


EDIT: Somewhat less outright agressive but equally ironic in tone:

hurr duur white people don't use the term "slut"

[Fragony]

Watch 'la femme de rue' and tell me again that it isn't culturally related.

[Hax]

I have seen it. You don't have to tell me that it isn't culturally related, my (blonde-haired) girlfriend stayed with me for a week in Paris and she was harassed several times. I live near Clichy, and she couldn't even go down the street to pick me up from the metro station without being harassed, by (you guessed it) Arabs. I know fully well that there are a lot of things wrong with the way women are treated in Arab culture. So get off it.

What you don't really seem to get is that the way women are perceived and objectified runs much, much deeper than that. Remember when that girl was raped by those teen football or baseball heroes or whatever in the U.S.? They weren't Arab, or Mexican, or whatever. The denigration of women in society -- and I think it's in a large part due to the way women are treated in porn -- goes much deeper than whatever is wrong with whatever foreign culture you dislike.

Consider the fact that a girl can't even put a photograph of herself on some websites without being called a whore. Think about it for a second. Think about what it implies.

[Sigurd]

I think we can say that there is less sex in action movies...

But I wouldn't agree that the terms "slut" and "whore" have changed to more conservative terms. I would say they have turned into everyday terms now, like the terms "stupid" or "dumbass". Ie. terms frequently said between friends as signs of affection as opposed to ill will. The scenario where one girl will jokingly call another girl "whore" without any ill intent is very common, starting around age 13.



Consider the fact that a girl can't even put a photograph of herself on some websites without being called a whore. Think about it for a second. Think about what it implies.
As Whore Sven stated, whore might not mean what you think it means.

[Fragony]

Whore means exactly what it says, I worked with 'whores', I just had to make sure nobody harmed them. They didn't like it to be called one because they worked in the sex-industry, it's really insulting to call someone a whore. It's a really degenerating thing to say. I get kinda infuriated if a women gets called a whore, even if they actually are a whore it isn't very classy.

Edit, I have been a whore by the way, I sometimes did the female clients when I wasn't there for just protecting. Yep, I have an interesting life.

[HoreTore]

Whore means exactly what it says, I worked with 'whores', I just had to make sure nobody harmed them. They didn't like it to be called one because they worked in the sex-industry, it's really insulting to call someone a whore. It's a really degenerating thing to say. I get kinda infuriated if a women gets called a whore, even if they actually are a whore it isn't very classy.

Edit, I have been a whore by the way, I sometimes did the female clients when I wasn't there for just protecting. Yep, I have an interesting life.

Well, you call me a whore every time you write my nick...

("Hore" is "whore" in Norwegian)

[Fragony]

Well, you call me a whore every time you write my nick...

("Hore" is "whore" in Norwegian)

More than my nick, actually been one. Only females. It's one of the reasons that I don't look down on the profession.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

To English speakers, "whore" carries a negative connotation, but not heavily so. It is used more as a pejorative reference for non-sex workers. When applied to a sex-worker, the term takes on a more descriptive connotation. I have no idea as to the connotations applied in Dutch or Norwegian.

[drone]

More than my nick, actually been one. Only females. It's one of the reasons that I don't look down on the profession.

You would be called a gigolo, not a whore. Yet another victory for sexual double standards!

[Fragony]

You would be called a gigolo, not a whore. Yet another victory for sexual double standards!

We just called them girls or ladies, but certainly not whores. It was all really nice really, no harm at all.

Edit, I will have a photo gigelo Fragony soon, it just needs to be scanned. We hired a cruise, phots coming.

[Sarmatian]

Frags used to sell teh love?!?!?!?

Wait a second, I have to get popcorns...

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... Okay, go!

[Fragony]

Frags used to sell teh love?!?!?!?

Wait a second, I have to get popcorns...

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... Okay, go!

Well yeah, guilty. But I was mainly protection for the girls. Friend of mind is scanning some pics out of the old days, I am on one in full force, you will laugh your ass of if you see it, not a bit wrong but very wrong. We hired a (small) cruise, got a few pics of that one as well. I organised itso I am on some pictures, promise that you won't hold it against me if you see it.

[BroskiDerpman]

Frags used to sell teh love?!?!?!?

Wait a second, I have to get popcorns...

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... Okay, go!


I want to be recording. :clown:

[Fragony]

You are welcome to ask. It's very cozy really, the harm is not in sexclubs et etc. where things get really cynical is where it isn't really allowed but merely tolerated, nobody takes care of them as it's an accepted grey area. Fix that. I am no longer into this but I can tell you how things work.

[Kadagar_AV]

As much as I like the rabbid atmosphere of the BR at large, I must admit I met my (very personal) limit here.

I honestly quite like the thing we have going here though, so I obviously don't want any rules changed.

However, I have come to terms with this being the wrong forum for more personal issues.

HT has lost my respect... In a way that I don't see as repairable.

I hope I have, and I sure think I will, treat every member showing a personal side of things with some respect. I might (by all means) flame their position hard, sure. But then I usually follow it up with a PM being more elaborate, to make sure they don't see it as personal. Quite a lot of you have got those over the years.

Thank you all for caring, but I will bow out of this thread, mods please close, would you so mind.

Let's leave it behind us, as it feels like a stain on these otherwise nice boards.