Military cadence

[Myth]

Can someone explain to this poor foo' who hasn't been to the army the purpouse of the military cadence (running songs)?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scGeHabVQ2M

Esprit de Corps? Discipline? Breathing training? Also, who does the singing? If it's the sarge, he must have some pretty huge lungs to be able to run 5 km while singing.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Can someone explain to this poor foo' who hasn't been to the army the purpouse of the military cadence (running songs)?

Esprit de Corps? Discipline? Breathing training? Also, who does the singing? If it's the sarge, he must have some pretty huge lungs to be able to run 5 km while singing.

indeed, and adding to the oxygen processing capacity is part of it. wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_cadence)

It all stems back to the basic sense of "unit" that emerges from close-order drill. That sense of unit cohesion is still valued -- hence running in groups with cadence songs and the like -- even when close order drill is passé on the battlefield.

[HoreTore]

To keep the mind occupied while doing senseless tasks.

It's surprising how much easier hard physical stuff gets when you're thinking of something else.

[Kadagar_AV]

Esprit de Corps...

May I add that it's damn morale lifting?

In my platoon, it was tradition to kidnap the new recruits, mess them up some, and then teach them the marching songs... As we served minimum 15 months, at least 3 months were overlapping with next years recruits.

Some weeks in, we put on the balaclavas and woke them up with flashbangs, dragging our weapons against the steel bunk beds, yelling, metal music on highest volume and so on...

We then put blindfolds on them, messed them up some for good measure, and dragged them out in the woods.

Out there, we had made this HUGE bonfire... The new guys were untied, and we gave them copious amounts of alcohol, spending the night bonding... Not only did we teach them valuable de facto lessons about military life, we also passed on the regiments marching songs.

The advice could be along the lines of "Army lip balm, in a pinch, work wonders to make the boots shine for inspection. Once it dry it will look like crap, but if you just want them sorted for inspection and have absolutely no time, don't hesitate".

I remember having a gruelling march, it was MURDER.... Anyway, someone started singing "Bright Side Of Life" (from Life of Brian), and seriously, it removed like 15kgs of weight from your shoulders, just like that.

So yeah, morale lifting.... And definitely a way to bond together as a group.

My favourite song was all about going to Valhall and fucking Freja, myth has it that it has survived since the Viking days.

Another one of my favourites are from the Swedish Empire times, a Carolinger song. It's completely bad ass, mainly about making Russian sons fatherless while raping their mums.

We even have our version of the known marine corps thingy, although I am not sure the marine corps invented it in the first place anyway.

"Jag vill dö med kängorna på,
för jag komma till Valhall då.

Där ska jag knulla Freja full,
ge henne ett jägarknull.

Sen ska jag dra till Moskva,
Döda ryssar och må bra!

aso aso aso...

[Kadagar_AV]

I was stationed next to some SEALs...

They sang this as they ran at times, even added a line about Swedish Rangers... It was hard not to join them running... Actually most days we did :)

from about 20 sec till 2-3 min in :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFcYqW7EFTM

[Husar]

Yeah, it speaks right to the tribal monkeybrain in an attempt to drive all civilization out of a man.

An attempt to turn humans into mindless killing machines until they are actually available.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yeah, it speaks right to the tribal monkeybrain in an attempt to drive all civilization out of a man.

An attempt to turn humans into mindless killing machines until they are actually available.

Don't you mean, "In order to scare the Civilisation into a man so that he's reliable on a battlefield."

Honestly, it's disgusting the amount of stick the average Swaddie gets (not a typo, look it up)

How many soldiers have we had on these boards?

Sigurd, Banquo, Kukri, MRD, GC...

All terrible people...

I'd add Kad and HoreTore but AFRAIK they were Conscripts - and like everything they had diametrically exposed experiences.

[Kadagar_AV]

Don't you mean, "In order to scare the Civilisation into a man so that he's reliable on a battlefield."

Honestly, it's disgusting the amount of stick the average Swaddie gets (not a typo, look it up)

How many soldiers have we had on these boards?

Sigurd, Banquo, Kukri, MRD, GC...

All terrible people...

I'd add Kad and HoreTore but AFRAIK they were Conscripts - and like everything they had diametrically exposed experiences.

Quick correction, I started out as conscript (like everyone back then), officer training program. Then went career, mainly UN service (Yugoslavia, Kosovo - is where I have most experience).

[Brenus]

French army likes marches, especially during night (as it doesn’t waste time for day light proper training) and in combat conditions (meaning you can’t have talk and things like this). It always LOVE the “commando” marches which is to cover 8 km in half running half running manners with full gear (back pack at 15 kg, plus water, plus weapon). It is painful and excruciating, in one word, harsh.
I remember finishing one of these when the platoon (I was at the Infantry Combat School of Montpellier at that time, still a soldier of Rank) and we were ordered to formation, before to go to the barracks. We were all exhausted, sweating and smelly (this I suppose), out of breath (this I remember).
Then we were order to march in “départ en chantant”, meaning when your first step (left) you start to sing. The first notes were not brilliant, for what I recalled, but after 1 or 2 meter, air starting to go in the lungs, and the song went deeper, following the slow and sad words of soldiering. The heads went up, the backs straightened, weapons hold. And this feeling to belong to an elite floods in, to be part of the ones doing this. Difficult to explain.

http://youtu.be/CcuHzo8Hsz8

[Myth]

Thanks for the stories guys. There's a reason I asked here and didn't just google it :2thumbsup:

Requesting link to the dying, going to Valhalla and baning Freja song.

If people are doing it, it must have its merits. Sounds like it does. I can tell that working out to music (especially if you're doing cardio or variance training) really helps, but I can't imagine how singing can benefit you when you're gasping for air. Guess it just works though.

[Greyblades]

I've never understood why army units have things like initiation beatings/scares. I kinda understand doing it to a troublesome member because he constantly mucks around and acts like an idiot, but doing guy in just for joining?

[Husar]

How many soldiers have we had on these boards?

Sigurd, Banquo, Kukri, MRD, GC...

All terrible people...

By that definition WW1 and 2 must have turned us all into more civilized people and you should all be thankful to us for starting them and making them lead to the Cold War and more militarization. We should also be thankful to OBL for making us turn even more men into real men and decent people when we were on the verge of becoming despicable pussies. Putin was also in the military, as were many dictators, why are they not decent and civilized men?

[Pannonian]

French army likes marches, especially during night (as it doesn’t waste time for day light proper training) and in combat conditions (meaning you can’t have talk and things like this). It always LOVE the “commando” marches which is to cover 8 km in half running half running manners with full gear (back pack at 15 kg, plus water, plus weapon). It is painful and excruciating, in one word, harsh.
I remember finishing one of these when the platoon (I was at the Infantry Combat School of Montpellier at that time, still a soldier of Rank) and we were ordered to formation, before to go to the barracks. We were all exhausted, sweating and smelly (this I suppose), out of breath (this I remember).
Then we were order to march in “départ en chantant”, meaning when your first step (left) you start to sing. The first notes were not brilliant, for what I recalled, but after 1 or 2 meter, air starting to go in the lungs, and the song went deeper, following the slow and sad words of soldiering. The heads went up, the backs straightened, weapons hold. And this feeling to belong to an elite floods in, to be part of the ones doing this. Difficult to explain.

http://youtu.be/CcuHzo8Hsz8

Did you sing any of the ones about hating the Austrians (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKRogpFUaY0) to your dying day?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I've never understood why army units have things like initiation beatings/scares. I kinda understand doing it to a troublesome member because he constantly mucks around and acts like an idiot, but doing guy in just for joining?

It is common to most "high trust requirement" teams in various areas: soldiering, fire-fighting, etc. Integrating the new member [FNG] involves the membership determining that they can handle stress and remain "with it" while being stressed. Since they have to trust you, literally, with their lives this takes on a good deal of importance. Add in that most such units have a somewhat higher morale -- with it's concomitant 'show me you are as keen to be a part of this as I was when I joined' -- and the new member "welcoming" efforts make a bit more sense.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...Now corrective training for screwups is a whole different thing, but even then none of its as bad as having your pay docked.

Was this "corrective training" initiated via the chain of command or peer-initiated?

[The Lurker Below]

We always sang cadence when we ran. You sing the good ones away from civilization, and you sing the corny ones when you get too close to a housing area or a support unit. I'd imagine you could get in real trouble in today's Army for the stuff we'd sing only 5 or 6 years ago.

Political Correctness sucks. :rtwno:

Am curious how those sounded. I was getting in trouble 15 years ago for jodie calls I learned 25 years ago.

Myth - This history geeks main interest is the 19th century U.S. south. I found it interesting how much the field laborers hollers and songs were similar to our military jodie calls. Like our military units they were using it to help pass by the tedious tasks. They also helped to form a sense of community. Similar to how our military units form cohesiveness.

Also breathing! Surely your not surprised that many of our young recruits are not in top physical fitness. The ones that have no idea how to run don't need to be reminded to breath if we can get them to respond to a call. No singing without breathing.

[Kadagar_AV]

It is common to most "high trust requirement" teams in various areas: soldiering, fire-fighting, etc. Integrating the new member [FNG] involves the membership determining that they can handle stress and remain "with it" while being stressed. Since they have to trust you, literally, with their lives this takes on a good deal of importance. Add in that most such units have a somewhat higher morale -- with it's concomitant 'show me you are as keen to be a part of this as I was when I joined' -- and the new member "welcoming" efforts make a bit more sense.

This sums up the hazing nicely, so I'll just add my voice to it.

At least where I was stationed, it wasn't about causing physical harm... Some slaps, pushes and kicks against body parts that could take it, sure... But I have been roughed up more doing sports than I was when it was my time to get hazed....

The shock factor was the big thing, I remember just waking up by being pushed out of bed, extremely loud noises all around, masked men manhandling us and forcing us out in the woods...

Those who then "can't take it" will be reported to the captain, those who remain calm will be extra praised.

The celebration afterwards is the important part of it though... In a way, having completely broken regiment like that, and having a mutual shared experience, removes the lines between officers and new recruits - leading to a bonding across the formal ranks.

It SOUNDS rough, and stupidly manly.... But I must say it works.

I was soooooo scared of the sgt's and stuff BEFORE the hazing, afterwards I had a personal relationship but still under the official chain of command.

They kind of beat being scarred out of me, and gave me beer afterwards... All sharing their pro-tips on how to survive in the army's day to day life. Hehe, I get all nostalgic thinking back on it now :beam:

[Brenus]

“Did you sing any of the ones”: Too old!!!! And this one is not against Austrians, or hating them, but is about charging enemies with bayonets...

[Sarmatian]

It's nice that you liked your hazing and think it was great experience, you bonded and so...

On the other hand, there's a picture in my mind. It's late August, I'm in Greece, Aegean coast, near the beach, around 9pm... There's a properly cooled bottle of white wine, next to a rather big salad bowl, filled with tomatoes, paprika, thinly sliced fresh cucumbers and huge amount of olives, with a modicum of vinegar and just a light sprinkle of olive oil on top, and Feta cheese added in liberal amount. Next to me there's a beautiful brunette, about 25 years old, with wet hair, bronze tan and not an abundance of clothes... And I'm about to bond with her.

So, you guys can say what you want, but my bonding beats your bonding. :creep:

[Pannonian]

“Did you sing any of the ones”: Too old!!!! And this one is not against Austrians, or hating them, but is about charging enemies with bayonets...

I think old military songs should be revived, as I think they're just as relevant now as when they were written. The US army needs more songs about subduing the rebel scum and how southerners will get what's coming to them (or alternatively about a drive to extend the borders to the Labrador Sea). That rubbish about treading grapes should be abandoned as well, as singing about John Brown's rotting corpse is much more inspiring.

[Myth]

It's nice that you liked your hazing and think it was great experience, you bonded and so...

On the other hand, there's a picture in my mind. It's late August, I'm in Greece, Aegean coast, near the beach, around 9pm... There's a properly cooled bottle of white wine, next to a rather big salad bowl, filled with tomatoes, paprika, thinly sliced fresh cucumbers and huge amount of olives, with a modicum of vinegar and just a light sprinkle of olive oil on top, and Feta cheese added in liberal amount. Next to me there's a beautiful brunette, about 25 years old, with wet hair, bronze tan and not an abundance of clothes... And I'm about to bond with her.

So, you guys can say what you want, but my bonding beats your bonding. :creep:

Why not have both? Ain't never seen a soldier without a girl by his side. Kad is banging a Russian spy even.

[Pannonian]

Why not have both? Ain't never seen a soldier without a girl by his side. Kad is banging a Russian spy even.

Is she on Facebook?

[Sarmatian]

Oh he's banging a russian spy alright.

12833

In defense of Kad, that's a guy who can trigger homo-erotic fantasies in any man.

So, Putin and Clooney don't count.

[Kadagar_AV]

I'm not dating that girl anymore...

I still wonder if she was a spy though. Of course her story checked out, but that's what you expect from a self respecting spy anyway ;)


About that Putin photo... Doesn't it look like he is... Skipping? Or is it just me?

Weeeee're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz!!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm not dating that girl anymore...

I still wonder if she was a spy though. Of course her story checked out, but that's what you expect from a self respecting spy anyway ;)


About that Putin photo... Doesn't it look like he is... Skipping? Or is it just me?

Weeeee're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz!!

Nah - he's shaking his money maker on the rustic catwalk - just look at the amount of hip he's putting into it.

So what's with ditching the Russian spy? Were you summoned and given a cease and desist order?

Could you not extract her secrets?

Losing your touch man...

[Kadagar_AV]

Nah - he's shaking his money maker on the rustic catwalk - just look at the amount of hip he's putting into it.

So what's with ditching the Russian spy? Were you summoned and given a cease and desist order?

Could you not extract her secrets?

Losing your touch man...

She was going back to Russia, and I really don't feel like building a future there...

Oh well, I guess I just have to wank off when I see her as a Pro-Russian Ukranian separatist on the news next... :laugh4:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

She was going back to Russia, and I really don't feel like building a future there...

Oh well, I guess I just have to wank off when I see her as a Pro-Russian Ukranian separatist on the news next... :laugh4:

Too much sharing bro.

Back on topic-ish.

It's a common misconception that Western Armies take normal young men and make them into thugs - quite the opposite, they take thugs and make them into normal, functioning, members of society.

That's not to say that the majority of soldiers start out as Chavs, but the army processes Chavs, white trash (adjust for national difference) and makes them into hald-decent young men.

[Husar]

Too much sharing bro.

Back on topic-ish.

It's a common misconception that Western Armies take normal young men and make them into thugs - quite the opposite, they take thugs and make them into normal, functioning, members of society.

That's not to say that the majority of soldiers start out as Chavs, but the army processes Chavs, white trash (adjust for national difference) and makes them into hald-decent young men.

So the answer to unwanted behavior in society is generally more government-subsidized brainwashing?

[HoreTore]

The army is the place where young adults learn how to be a child.

It's also an excellent place to learn how to steal stuff.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You know, I'd say the US Army certainly has that potential, but the war definitely took its toll on that aspect of the military existence. The way they're currently handling the force draw-down is pretty disgraceful, too--re-instating draconian tattoo policies that were suspended during the Iraq war, forcing career NCOs to retire early, encouraging units to involuntarily separate Soldiers for minor offences rather than give incentives for people to leave on good terms, and so forth. Its becoming a very political and very competitive Army very quickly, as everyone with a clean record jockeys for a position in the down-sized Army. I saw this coming, and when my ankle got hurt I knew I'd be one of the ones on the chopping block when this time came, so I suppose I'm just happy I didn't re-enlist.

Certainly, once we're done with major conflicts, the Army will go back to that character-building schtick, but its really a luxury that a wartime Army can't afford and it was one of the first things out the window when the Iraq war turned out to be less than mission accomplished.

Well, the higher ups in the US Army will remember the whole show falling apart after Vietnam - they're probably being aggressive with the dead wood, cutting off some live wood too, to prevent a re-run of the 1980's. That's not to say they're doing the right thing now but I can understand the desire to not have to spend a decade re-building the army again.

UK troops had deployments of around 6 months, but I hear US deployments were getting up to 18 months towards the end. That's pretty much insane, those guys will come out nuttier than a bunch of squirrels after that.


So the answer to unwanted behavior in society is generally more government-subsidized brainwashing?

We even had a reality TV show about it here, Bad Lads Army, where they take 30 young men with poor records and put them through National Service. At the end of one series, about 10/3 up and signed on with the real Army and one guy proposed to his girlfriend.

In the UK we have a very strong belief in the reformative power of the British Army.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It's nice that you liked your hazing and think it was great experience, you bonded and so...

On the other hand, there's a picture in my mind. It's late August, I'm in Greece, Aegean coast, near the beach, around 9pm... There's a properly cooled bottle of white wine, next to a rather big salad bowl, filled with tomatoes, paprika, thinly sliced fresh cucumbers and huge amount of olives, with a modicum of vinegar and just a light sprinkle of olive oil on top, and Feta cheese added in liberal amount. Next to me there's a beautiful brunette, about 25 years old, with wet hair, bronze tan and not an abundance of clothes... And I'm about to bond with her.

So, you guys can say what you want, but my bonding beats your bonding. :creep:

Just remember to keep a proper cadence and have her do the callbacks as appropriate.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Standard Army deployment was 12-18 months. 6 months for Marines. :rtwno:

Why did the big green machine opt for the longer deployments instead of the approach taken by uncle sam's misguided? The shorter version -- even on an a 6/off 6 basis -- would be less of a grind for the squaddies. It's not like the military hasn't known about the 100 day rule since the 40's.

[Myth]

Aren't the marines the ones who have the highest mortality rate? Even in the cadence Kad posted the SEALS sing "bullet sponge Marine Corps".

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Aren't the marines the ones who have the highest mortality rate? Even in the cadence Kad posted the SEALS sing "bullet sponge Marine Corps".

The USMC had the highest per capita death rate in ww1, ww2, Vietnam, and gulf 1. The army has the higher rates in Korea and GWoT. Korea would actually have been higher per capita among the marines as well, but they didn't have to do the retreat to Pusan part.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Per Capita, only slightly. In the Pacific Theater of ww2 the Army suffered far, far more casualties than the Marines, even if the Marines insisted on fighting to the death over islands like Iwo Jima and Tarawa that would have been bypassed and starved out had the Philippine campaign been the main thrust. The Marines died disproportionately in strategically less important battles, because they were under the control of the Navy which just had to do things different from the Army. Blame Nimitz. That said, more Army soldiers died in the campaign by far. The same can be said of ww1, Vietnam, and Korea. Maybe the short deployment times was the Marines' way of saying "This time, let's not needlessly throw lives away." Of course, that would be ignoring the tactics certain Marine units used in the initial invasion of Iraq. The same units that got a whole TV mini-series. :laugh4:

I'm afraid the only positive thing I have to say about Marines is that they have wonderful esprit de corps and outstanding uniforms. They also have tougher physical standards than the Army, and are able to conduct their institutional business with an independence that most Army units can only dream of, because they are much smaller. In terms of their soldiering mentality... I never enjoyed working with them, I never enjoyed working with Soldiers and NCOs who were former Marines, and nearly all of my interactions with Marines on a professional level have been negative. Of course, a lot of that is institutional bias--when Soldiers and Marines meet, there's going to be friction. Marines think they're high and mighty, and the Army as an institution has been slighted in the historical record because they are simply less glamorous.

Army casualties AFTER Corregidor were not inordinate. Iwo was strictly grabbed to serve as a fighter base, a role it fulfilled well. I have to say that a number of the Marine ops -- Pelilieu for example -- seemed to serve less of a strategic goal than Iwo or Tarawa. Frontal attacks on beaches are not a recipe for minimal casualties.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well that's really the only way to attack a beach. The Army assaulted the beaches in the Philippines frontally, but it was the Philippines which are huge.. the Japanese couldn't defend every beach and they had to deal with partisans that were fighting for us against them. The Marine island battles which, at best, supplied small air bases and at worst cost lives needlessly (you don't need to take an airfield to deny it to the enemy if you can achieve the same by cutting it off--because its an Island, and you control the water and the Air). They are romanticized as episodes of valor, which is surely fair, but in that the fact that they were largely pointless is forgotten. The Philippine campaign never actually finished--it was considered a second front even though it was bigger, more costly, and strategically more valuable (you can control the Solomon Islands by controlling the Philippines but you can't control the Philippines with the Solomon Islands), and in the end there were more Army Soldiers on Okinawa than Marines.

I'd go as far as to say that Nimitz' Island hopping was almost bureaucratic completionism. A total refusal to allow these little islands to die slowly, instead insisting that they be stormed. You can't really blame the Marines for being used poorly.

I think the concept of the islands as bases for control idea was sound, but some of the ones they picked were really a waste. Tarawa's strategic value lasted a week. Half of the Solomons they bothered with they needn't have. So yeah, I concur, too many Marines were used wrong.

[Kadagar_AV]

I will probably receive some hate over this, but it's my honest view that US Marine Corp guys tend to be... a little dim...

The Esprit de Corps is absolutely GRAND though. I guess you need that to storm beaches, huh?

It's not just in USA, heck, Sweden's answer to "Marine Corp" have the same stigma. Regular soldiers and other elite regiments see them as somewhat stupid.

Their uniforms look GREAT in Hollywood films though, and they have a very successful PR-machine going for them - no doubt.


But if I was USAnian, I wouldn't be proud if a son of mine came home and told me he was about to join the Marine Corp, no.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Heh, because the Army is big and abusable. You abuse the Marines, and Hollywood won't let you forget it. You abuse the Army, and its business as usual.

Nah, it's because the Army's General Staff can't run the army properly.

I'm guessing that it's the same in the US as the UK - average soldier has to spend at least as long at home as on deployment. That being the case - longer deployments are pointless, the only reason for them is because it's mildly inconvenient to rotate units in and out. You don't gain anything though because after the six month point the soldiers' effectiveness starts to decline quite precipitously.

As Kad says - this is well known, so it's a mystery why US planners don't account for it.

[Greyblades]

...forgive my ignorance but why would the national guard be sent overseas?

[rajpoot]

Very interesting thread. I can never overstate how much I learn from the Org, even if at times the facts are somewhat biased.
Also the obligatory Clint Eastwood video about marines and military cadence. Heartbreak Ridge is a nice movie BTW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWCYv40Ur1g

[Kadagar_AV]

Short answer would be: Bullet Sponges.

Also: USA don't have that big of an army that many seem to think. When they simultaneously have to fight on two different battlefields (refuse to call them theatres), you actually begin to be stretched quite thin, if they want to keep morale and educational standards up on the home field as well.

[Pannonian]

Not calling them theatres seems ignorant. At the height of the surge there were over 200,000 troops in Iraq.

That's around the size of a WWII-era Army Group, isn't it?

[Pannonian]

And able to cover much more ground. But that aside, they're two different countries with different supply routes, long term strategies, tactics, even uniforms. Theaters, man.

I absolutely refuse to call them theaters. To me, they're theatres.

[Kadagar_AV]

Not calling them theatres seems ignorant. At the height of the surge there were over 200,000 troops in Iraq. And there are no bullet sponges in the US Army, you prejudiced swede. :no: Its sad I can't clarify historical facts without you saying something ignorant for shock value.

I believe my point was lost in translation.

A theater is where you go to watch shows. We also have movie-theaters.

I just don't see any kind of fun in the Iraq nor Afghan "theaters". It's certainly a show I wouldn't go to, nor send my children to!!


About "no bullet sponges in the US army", you are of course wrong. Don't get me wrong, no one would ever call these units "bullet sponges" to their face, except for maybe some SEALs.

EVERY army have bullet sponges. I don't berate the US Marine Corps, I am just saying that they hold the position where you absolutely NEED Esprit de Corpse to be a functional soldier.

The tasks they fill are seen as tasks for the intellectually challenged, in ANY and EVERY nation that I know of. Hollywood has, however, painted them as being some sort of supreme soldiers, they are not. They get selected for bravado, not intelligence or general physical soldier skill.

[Papewaio]

I believe my point was lost in translation.

A theater is where you go to watch shows. We also have movie-theaters.

I just don't see any kind of fun in the Iraq nor Afghan "theaters". It's certainly a show I wouldn't go to, nor send my children to!!


Maybe read up about WWII outside of the European theater:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_theaters_and_campaigns_of_World_War_II

Technically speaking Iraq and Afghanistan would be campaigns within the Middle East Theatre if using WWII Demarcs.

If using Clausewitz they would be separate theatres:
""Denotes properly such a portion of the space over which war prevails as has its boundaries protected, and thus possesses a kind of independence. This protection may consist in fortresses, or important natural obstacles presented by the country, or even in its being separated by a considerable distance from the rest of the space embraced in the war. Such a portion is not a mere piece of the whole, but a small whole complete in itself; and consequently it is more or less in such a condition that changes which take place at other points in the seat of war have only an indirect and no direct influence upon it. To give an adequate idea of this, we may suppose that on this portion an advance is made, whilst in another quarter a retreat is taking place, or that upon the one an army is acting defensively, whilst an offensive is being carried on upon the other. Such a clearly defined idea as this is not capable of universal application; it is here used merely to indicate the line of distinction."

[Pannonian]

Maybe read up about WWII outside of the European theater:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_theaters_and_campaigns_of_World_War_II

Technically speaking Iraq and Afghanistan would be campaigns within the Middle East Theatre.

Kad's mind might explode when he sees the term "theatre of operations". A show theatre where they show surgeons at work.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Ah, it was a joke. Hurr durr. That's actually kind of funny.

But there really are no bullet sponges. The Iraqi Army served that role, willingly and often. If you didn't want to see them get hurt, you just didn't invite them. :shrug:

Even the Marines are ultra casualty conscious, despite the reputation. Its a big part of the US Military culture, and part of the bargain in a voluntary army. You just don't waste lives. At least, not overtly. Lives wasted through political incompetence is something else.

I think the militaries efforts/abilities to minimize casualties has grown exponentially since the mass-conscript wars of the first half of the 20th. Political competence has remained static during this same time period.

Now wasn't that a carefully worded comment....

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Kad's mind might explode when he sees the term "theatre of operations". A show theatre where they show surgeons at work.

TLC already does this. I have seen both a caesarean section and hernia repair. Rather messier than just reading about them.