View Full Version : Interesting results from camel experiments
Kongamato
11-09-2002, 03:11
Today I made some experiments in custom battles with the Bedouin Camel Warriors. Personally, I did not think that they had been given enough consideration as an anti-cavalry weapon, and had not been thoroughly tested in all situations. So today I tested them in some Custom Battles. I do not remember the results completely, nor can I verify that they will translate to MP properly.
I am also afraid that the AI was on Normal, but when it comes to 1 unit on 1 unit charging blindly at each other, I do not know whether the AI will add an effect.
As of now, all I can claim is that they do very good against Cavalry.
I first fought 16 units of them against 16 units of Alans at around 13000 florins. They won.
I fought them fully upgraded 1 on 1, against fully upgraded Gothic Knights in lush terrain(which supposedly causes a penalty). The GKs won a Pyrrhic victory. They had maybe 8 left to my running 6.
Again both fully upgraded BCW fought on flat, lush terrain, this time against fully upgraded Royal Knights. The battles went down to tooth and nail, and the camels lost 1 and won 1.
16 unupgraded Gendarmes vs. 16 BCW upgraded to the price of the 16 Gendarmes, flat, lush terrain:
The camels won. But with 16 units, the quality of the generals comes into play. Me vs. the comp is not a proper assessment of anything.
My conclusions:
Camels need more consideration. They are weird units that can overcome their penalty in Lush and Temperate terrain, however the general should try to use Arid and Desert to their advantage. They also move at a speed between that of infantry and Cav. Controlling them seems weird, as they are Cav-sized but move relatively slowly. Whenever they lose, the victor wins a Pyrrhic victory. They are also cost-effective. At 125 Florins for 40, they make room for valour upgrades. They need these valour upgrades too, as their morale is kinda bad.
In other words, give camels a try They are considered Cavalry, so they might even get a boost from the patch None of my experiments should be considered final, but they show that much more experiments should be made.
With that, I will make more experiments and post them here. I will write down the numerical facts this time.
Kongamato
11-09-2002, 04:13
V2 Gothic Knights: 2096 F
vs
V3 W2 A2 Bedouin Camel Warriors: 2072 F
Map: Plains, Temperate
The camels win, killing 38 Gothic Knights and losing 18 men. They supposedly have a penalty for fighting in temperate terrain, and they still won. This battle proves cost-effectiveness, as the BCW fight at an equal cost.
muffinman14
11-09-2002, 06:37
interesting, didnt know they had that much effect.
Nobunaga0611
11-09-2002, 07:23
shhhhh delete this topic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Don't let people know about my secret weapon Seriously, they work very well. I've used them in MP and they seriously do well, but they're even better in Arid and Desert Terrains. They're cheaper than a lot of cavs, and although they're slower, are effective. I like Camels, and wish that all Muslim factions had the Camel Warriors, not just some Camel Archers.
Those Berbers are good as well. Check their stats, they are only -1 in def and attack compared to BWC and they have a bow.
I saw a guy listing all bonusses over at the com, camels have something like +4 to attack against horses and something to def.
[EDIT] I found the post at the com and took it here. It is great for understanding the game. A lot of things that can be used for both SP and MP.
Terrain
+1 atk, +1 def for camels in desert
-2 atk, -2 def for cavalry in forests
Bonus to atk for being uphill (depends on height)
Penalty to def for being downhill (depends on height)
Fear of camels
+4 def for camels against horses
+2 atk for camels against horses
well ive been using camels for ages now... the archers are really the best, they cost about the same, and if uppgraded can fight just as well in hand to hand against cav
But the patch ruins the game, and you only use ~4 different unit types and you can cavalry rush now and there is no defence and clearly camels are overpowered and need their stats adjusted and before the patch all the good units were underpowered and now they are overpowered and there is no balance and this game sucks so I'm not gonna play it anymore...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I generally only use camels as a cheap alternative for light cavalery, for rushing masive enemy peasant formations and such, for some reason the enmy seldom uses cavalery...
However, two units of camels attacking a mounted prince or general, or even a king, are great.
Kongamato
11-09-2002, 20:58
So it sounds like the Cav rush still beats the Camel rush? Any MP people wanna verify?
Maybe their cheapness can be combined with some high honor spearmen and be used as flankers.
Considering Camels are called Cavalry, wouldn't they recieve the same benefits from the patch?
Also, I only did tests with the Bedouin Camel Warriors. At more than twice the cost, at lesser stats, and carrying an underpowered archery attack, are you saying that Berber Camel Archers are worth it?
Nobunaga0611
11-10-2002, 03:13
I have used the Berbers in a while. I think they're arrows are underpowered and don't really do much if anything. I wish they did though. Its not usually good to just take Camels as cav though...I've done this, and they're simply to slow to harass lines of Arbs and get back in time. They'll take pretty heavy losses.
Bob the Insane
11-10-2002, 23:31
I always thought that camels could run faster than horses....
(in real life that is..)
Mithrandir
11-11-2002, 00:21
hmm, I always love to fight vs. Camels since they seem to rout even faster than peasants...maybe the camels are afraid of my smell or something http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif.
Berbers are just as good/bad at firing arrows as any other mounted archer.
But their cost come from this:
Berbers fighting cavalry in the desert: 3 attack and 5 defense... that is the same as Kataphraktoi Beduin Camel Warriors would be 5 and 5 for only 125 florins
They will become much more popular when people find out about this.
OI If that means they can kill my Lancers now that sucks sucks sucks I demand a new patch now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
CBR
Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ Nov. 09 2002,19:58)]So it sounds like the Cav rush still beats the Camel rush? Any MP people wanna verify?
Sure pop me a mail or meet me in the lobby. Let's try desert maps. In my experience camles are hard to use in MP but they can rule if employed correctly.
Prodigal
11-11-2002, 15:17
All techy indepth break downs aside, generally I find my own camels run screaming & spitting into the sandstorm everytime it hits the fan. On the other side of the coin the AI's camels devestate anything I send against them; with certain bloody exceptions of course.
Well, the Camels certainly need about V2 to make it... their base Morale is 0. But at V2 they will defeat most heavy cav in the desert for less money.
Fearless
11-11-2002, 15:46
This forum is great....the tips you pick up are priceless. I will now start using camel warriors a lot more
Thanks for the topic
One thing I have noticed about camels: when I have my arbalesters in defence, they make excellent pincushions. I presume this is down to their relatively larger size, but they seem to die much faster than cavalry as they mooch up the sand dune into the killing fields ..
Prodigal
11-14-2002, 15:37
Fairly obvious, (& I haven't ever had any real luck with them yet, altough I am working on the valour angle more now, thanks for the pointer Kraxis http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ), but they get hammered if they get into a tree line.
Why was I using them in tree's? They were supposed to be chasing a routed enemy on my right flank http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Quote[/b] (jas @ Nov. 11 2002,16:51)]One thing I have noticed about camels: when I have my arbalesters in defence, they make excellent pincushions. I presume this is down to their relatively larger size, but they seem to die much faster than cavalry as they mooch up the sand dune into the killing fields ..
Well they die to Arbs that much faster because of their relatively low Armour (2). Eventhough Arbs are great against Armour they are still more effective against low armour. They treat Camels as Armour 1 units, while Chivalric Knights as Armour 3.
Prodigal, Camels are rather slow they are not very great at chasing enemies, let those Saharan Cavalry do that. And trees against non cavalry... well you asked for it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (Bob the Insane @ Nov. 10 2002,17:31)]I always thought that camels could run faster than horses....
(in real life that is..)
No, Camels are much smarter than horses and won't run just because some human sits on their back and shouts at them. Add to that the smell, that they bite, spit and step on your toes at every possible oppertunity, and you have a horrible animal that should be avoide.
On the plus side they can live for a long time without water, and in sand they can run twice as fast as a horse.
That is a thing that should be implemented, horses speed should be halved in desert, but the camels retain theirs, would balance them out a little.
Quote[/b] (Dawood @ Nov. 14 2002,18:09)]That is a thing that should be implemented, horses speed should be halved in desert, but the camels retain theirs, would balance them out a little.
WHAT????
Can you imagine the Kataphraktoi and Gothic Knights sprinting along at 6 speed (the same speed most infantry walks)????? Also it would make the Saharan Cavalry rather stupid...
Just put some jinettes on those camels and watch them break and run. Camels are easy to handle. And the archer ones, my horses run right over them like they aren't even there.
G0THIC-Lobster
11-16-2002, 07:22
what the.....i have 16 unit of them againist 5 unit of teutonic knight with a general which have valor 1 wtf, my camels lose and the terrain was in desert...wtf
You can't compare SP camels to MP camels. SP camels are too easily countered as they are not too strong in Morale, and often you don't have much that gives them more. They break in fights they would eventually have won. That is my guess about the Teutonics winning. The knights charged the camels and the charge is good so a lot of camels died there and then. Then the knights didn't need to kill much more before the Morale was too low for the camels.
At best you can compare the camels with Feudal knights in terms of melee, but not in charge and Morale. So don't let those knights get their charge in or your camels will run.
Michael the Great
11-16-2002, 19:48
Camels RuLe
What I wonder is if they DO really get a bonus generally vs cavalry.........(in reality, that is)
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