MP balance

[Puzz3D]

kyodai-britishbee,

Apparently, you are not going to be allowed to address the topic of your poll. It is very difficult to balance the MP game. In the end, only a small group of players will use an alternate stat anyway, and others will say it splits the MP community. MTW v1.1 is well balanced in MP, and there is less need for an alternate stat than there was for WE/MI. Although, I can see some fine tuning would help. You have the two most uncompromising players in the game controlling the developement of this alternate stat. Don't be naive about who it is aimed at.

[Kocmoc]

as this directly go in my direction i have to give my opnion as well.

i think u mean me and magy.

ok, as long we dont name names here i can ofcourse name my own name.

we dont "controlling the developement", we justprepare and give the chance to change it in our all favor

hmmm, "two most uncompromising players " this i take personal, as far this isnt true i come around to hear many opinions and many are already invited to look at the stats and work with us together, EVERYONE is inited to change and work with all others together, we DONT are a group of "arrogant-elite" players wich just change in a "top-secret" group NO, all what we do is open for all everyone can see and give his opinion or input.

btw, why i should change the stats for just my own favor?
this is a laugh, i win near every game so i dont need to change anything to win more like i do already.

if u could notice i went online created polls and asked question to understand and see other points and view as well, so i searched for compromises for solutions.

i dont want just my own own stat, i will improve the gameplay and this for ALL

im sorry if ur dissapointed with the 1,03 stats from stw, im sorry for this but we have the chance now to change something to make it better, how i can see u dont want to improve the gameplay
if it would be other, u had at least tryed to talk with me but somehow u didnt or im wrong?

so im here and wait for any impulse from u and im willing to go for compromis and solutions u not till now

so dont attack me this way, dont come with im not able to go any compromiss or didnt listen to others
come around and try to work with us together if not than u dont want to change anythin

but maybe im wrong and u mean someone others.......

koc

[MagyarKhans Cham]

its free for all to make their own unitstats. i encourage everyone to be busy with it yourself.

soem players found it necessarry to chance somethings. we dont want to wait 2-3 months for a next patch, if the patch would ever coma at all, noone knows.

so koc is busy to create a base stat, just improving small simple things. these stats will be downloadable from the totalwarassembly. and can be discussed at the forum.

after this all can be part of teh process to improve the stats, there will be a complete unitstats forum overthere. u can also sign up helping koc.

we dont create a new game, we dont make it "friends only", we just started a process which would take months in teh old fashioned way. we want to have fun now, and not in 2003.

we will gain enuf followers to do 3 vs 3 battles, and u can make your own stats,. if we think they are better than ours, than we will gladly accept them as well.

so make your own stats, or help with ours or just s..t up.

[kyodai-britishbeef]

i just see that u magyr and koc r never happy with things in m.tw as in shoggy . that is unless it is done too your satisfaction and u are elitist as u only listen to certain players and dismiss all others.

[Kocmoc]

i think u missed mags post
otherwise u could notice the maininfo in his post.

u can do ir urselft u can work with us together like other are doin and some of them are new player
so again ALL are invited...

i will thank at this point DOC very much, look he said many things wich did make me reconcider. and at the end i change things with his ideas and thoughts.

i love MTW how i loved STW, this is a complet other game but with the same mecanics. So we needed some little changes in STW to improve it and we need some little changes in MTW again

thats it, SOME LITTLE CHANGES this game is pretty good.

and we dont dismiss other players, we invited many times now... so plz read what we and other are write and open ur mins...look left and right ......


jeezus

koc

[Nobunaga0611]

just a question for you kocmoc....did you guys put in a bit more added morale? or did you look into possibly changing something else so your armies troops aren't "worried by routing friends" from an allies army, all the way across the map? Just wondering. This is one of the things that annoys me. How can my army even see them running away from across a few hills, through trees, on the other side of the map?? And how would they know what they're doing from that far away anyways? A routing unit looks a lot like a unit thats marching quickly, at least from a far distance. I don't know if others have seen this happen to them, but I've noticed when my ally on the other side has a few units running, I checked the description of my units that weren't even engaged (with none of my units routing), and they were 'worried by blah blah....' this just seems wierd to me.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

kyodai u keep persisting in what u think of us, and u propbably missed my post.

why u think we listen to noone? any new stats only work if u satisfy teh major part of teh online players otherwise noone will play, simple is that.

so if "our" stats are better than teh current stats than we will play with them, simple is that.

nobu we are simple people so we just raised teh morale with 2 points and it feels to "us" much better now.

[Kocmoc]

hi nobunaga,

to ur question:

we increased the moral of all units by +2, this brings a lot more stability in the battle and u wont see so many "easy" routs anymore, this means as well that u dont need to buy valour 4 units and the average florinamount will go back to not more than 10k each.

if u will be test it urself in custom or online , just mail me and i wil lsend u the stats or come to the forum at totalwarassambly there the stats will be uploaded soon.

i creat a excel file where i implent all changes we made so u guys can easy see what changed. i also post my thougths there to explain why i change things
We dont create a "new" game, how some guys think we just balance some units wich noone will sue right now and upgrade some overpowered unit...

or would anyone here use an otehr unit as arbas in high and late?...it just means that the whole other archer and missleunits are useless, so we have to change some litle thing to make them more valuable.

hopei could help u...

my email Mike.friedrich@primacom.net

koc

[MagyarKhans Cham]

puzz3d i dont understand your post, i even take your comments as an insult. maybe i misread the whole intention of the post. in that case dont read further.

u might be dissapointed cuz u "were" left out from teh start of this, look for that problem with yourself. u all are Gods of Stats, and now your dominions try to mimic u. whats wrong with that?

the betatesters are happy with the patch, we are not. and again, i dont speak about koc and me only. go visit our wolfsite for additional names and ask erado if he want to look into kocs emailbox.

why u bother anyway if only a few will use this stats, let them have their own stats. make your own and over 3 months we all play with your stats which will ofcourse be better than ours.

talking about uncompromisable, we have an open forum ready soon at teh totalwarassembly and all are invited to share his comments with each released version. people can even take part in teh test group or whatever. its an open public process, just to keep things going. so try to convert frustration into a sheer jump of joy and dont waste your valuable energy on this silly thingy.


u could take an example of your fellow clanmate doc who is helping statnewbee kocmoc to work his ass of to understand all teh unit characterstics for his first stats release.

[kyodai-britishbeef]

well i dispite what u think mag and koc)i do read your posts and consider what u have to say, and even sometimes respect it (as i respect your playing abilities)but i think making and releasing unofficial stats is certainly gona fracture the community if not destroy it imo

[Kocmoc]

i agree with u in this point.
but what if the majority use it?
and than all gonna use it?

whats the problem with this?

here is my email, mike.friedrich@primacom.net
plz mail me and i will send u my ideas and some new stats, tha nwe can meet online and speak about it.
maybe u have some ideas wich i didnt saw yet....or u have a different opinion, so we go and search a compromis (ofcourse first just between us)

i know we can do this just togehter, and its useless if jsut a very few use this stats....but we should try it.

and maybe we see upcoming problems before some other they see?

look at guys like puzz, he speak about the "very good" online play....i can say its good, but i wont say its very good. but the point is how he can know it? u ever saw him playing online? or how often u saw him?

so i ask u how he can have the knowledge of gus like u or other wich played already some 100 battles?

thats the big point

u cant exploit the game with just a few games, u need many games and u need some talent as well. so puzz has much more knowledge about the stats, no doubt about this but he cant bring the knowledge on the battlefield, and he didnt exploited the online gaming yet.

british, what we do here?
we jsut want to make this game better as it is now, and we find more and more peoples who agree with us, we all wont change the whole game, we jsut want some little changes, like DOC, he sugessted some very nice ideas about the accuracy and lethality and his ideas are pretty good.

so we use it and.....wow ....the game got better, without changing the character....

thx for ur time

koc

[kyodai-britishbeef]

i understand what u r saying koc and i appreciate your attitude of mediation towards me. Although i am an avid and experienced player i am not a skilled programmer in any way but thank u for asking my opinions on the subject. i still feel the game play is quite good (were all on the same field with the same options) BUT i will give your stats a fair trial when there r released http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif and maye they will be better but if they r not i hope u wull concede the fact and understand that maybe the developers do know best .And if your stats do improve the m.p game i will admit it and give u the credit u deserve.

[Puzz3D]

Quote: "i care more about 40 vets than 1000 one day flies."

That recent statement of yours Magyar would indicate to me that your efforts are not aimed at the larger MP community, but instead at a small group of players. You and Kocmoc are taking my statements in a negative way which shouldn't surprise anyone that's been around here for a while, but consider this.

Most players are not going to use an alternate stat. So, you might as well develop it for the group who expresses interest in using it. Try so satisfy the gameplay preferences of that group of players. I'm sure some players will come and try the stat after it has been developed. Some will like it, and some won't like it.

Also, when it comes down to finalizing the stat someone (Kocmoc?) is going to have to make the final decisions. That person has to be firm at that point. Ideally, he should be someone who is able to conceptually grasp the big picture and see how all the units fit into the tactical puzzle. Being uncompromising at that point isn't a bad quality. You'll need many iterations of the stat set to get it close to what you want, but at some point I would say you want to finalize it so players can start developing their tactics and not feel like they are on shifting sands with a constantly changing stat.

I made my original post only because Soly closed the poll. I still think it's naive to think you can make a stat for the whole community. Only CA can do that. Kocmoc even said the same thing in the WE/MI days.


Kocmoc,

I have played over 300 MTW online battles. So stop posting lies about me.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

please ddonts tart about who is destroying what, cuz we have already books of everybody about this subject.


but back to teh subject...

its not about being a programmer, its about haveing ideas what u consider to eb wrong. u say ur an experienced player, but talk to amp. give him any new stats/patch and within a a few games he already feels how things "feel". i know more of these guys. some need 10 games, some 30 and some 1000 and a few will never see it.

perhaps we are at teh wrong track, but from our first days of testing we already "feel" "its" "better" for us (Orlok Koc Noyan Paolai and our Khan).

when we think we have something considerably better than we release it to all interested, people can post at teh forum what they think.

its just about "our" ideas, you have your ideas. fine. just wait.

give "us" a fair chance, or better become one of "us"

[Kocmoc]

i just see no produktive of ur posts puzz, its nothing elese than contraproduktiv.
if u think its all fine, good for u have fun and enjoy
so what u care about our work and try to find a way to improve the gameplay?
yes, ur right maybe we dont improve it for everyone, coz some wont dont like it or whatever.

I saw some post of u and still u say that some things should be changed, not much but some little things.
Thats exactly the same what we say

but i still dont see ur point.
u jsut attack us on an indirect way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
and start to try to make something wich is hard, make it even harder. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

so thx for ur post ur ideas....
maybe just CA can bring new patches, (i believe this too) so see it maybe this way....if hey day X comes we have already some well tested stats ready wich wcould be accepted by many good players and ofcourse by many new players. so we reduce the time we need if they give us a go... maybe its an advance...

look, i just go along and try to make something better, not worser. But till know i dont see that u help in any way, u just make it harder for us So whats ur problem with this?

if u dont like just ignore it, if u dont care ignore it...
and if u think it wont be accepted by the masses, well...whats the problem than?????
if this happens, we just a little group of guys wich do some fun searchin....nothing to care about.

so i just cant understand ur intention to post like ur first post, ofcourse i have my own thougths about the why....;)

so, if u want i will send u the stats and u can ofcourse work with us together u can give ur input and u have like many others a chance to change something ina way we can be happy with. os ur invited to come and tes with us... ur more than welcome

plz look, what we realy doin, we put many work in this ...

ur junioKoc http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[kyodai-britishbeef]

i understand what u r saying koc and i appreciate your attitude of mediation towards me. Although i am an avid and experienced player i am not a skilled programmer in any way but thank u for asking my opinions on the subject. i still feel the game play is quite good (were all on the same field with the same options) BUT i will give your stats a fair trial when there r released and maye they will be better but if they r not i hope u wull concede the fact and understand that maybe the developers do know best .And if your stats do improve the m.p game i will admit it and give u the credit u deserve.

[Erado San]

I will add my five cents, just see them as suggestions, not meant to be either positive or negative... what you think of them is left to you.

There are two problems you will have to have a solution for when developing stats files:

1 - How to make sure they will be the one used online by everybody

2 - How to control the choices made in developing the intermediate testing versions.


Comments at #1:

When the stats for patch 1.02 were made we had one big bonus: they were going to end up in a patch made by CA, which also had a few improvements that allowed for more options, mainly the fact that the number of troops in a unit was now possible to be changed in the stats files.

Because it was going to be a patch, the changed stats were going to be downloaded by most anybody and therefore everybody would have them.

Your initiative is not likely to end up in a patch. Convincing the people to use your new stats is going to be impossible. You will reach the people here, and serious players online will also have a go at them when you suggest them. But mainly I see a huge number of out of synced games as a result of this, when people join games with the old stats hosted by people with the new stats. This disruption of the online foyer is a serious problem you should try and find a solution for before you even start this project.


Comments at #2:

Again during development of MI/WE 1.02, there were an enormous amount of suggestions and discussions about every possible detail we could think of. There were things we agreed on very easily, and things that led to fierce debates about the pros and cons of certain improvements. Some suggestions were so influential to the whole process that they were impossible to have a real look at for the time they would take to implement them.

Organizing the way changes are going to be implemented and how decisions about the changes, and who makes these decisions is a vital issue.

Good luck.

[Puzz3D]

Kocmoc,

I never post anything useful?

Stop lying about me

[MagyarKhans Cham]

hmmmm puzz, who talks about lying? did Koc? than point me where. if i am correct he only said that your [post didnt contain anything productive towards what we are trying to reach? when did his opinion turn into a lie for u? please enlight me.
Imagine that you are a random visitor and read your own post. My nose maybe filled with "air" but i smell some understatements in your posts.

Erado to comment your comment 1.
it seems that u cant join a game if the versions differ. although perhaps maybe u can join and it will go out of sync. that would be pittyfull. we wont be able to convince all of u, so out of syncs will happen. i dont thonk we can prevent it on forehand and must accept it.

and to all,

this all may fail, and so what... we have tried it cuz we dont wanna wait on a patch that even perhaps never will show up.
people may stick to their own stats, thats ok too. it seems somehow some are feared that they are forced to play with stats they dont like cuz teh majority is playing with them. Our Khan is feared that he must play a few years with teh stats we have now.

so if we start all to do what we like best and leave each other in their doings than all could be fine.

[shingenmitch2]

Koc & Mag,

I don't think Puzz is trying to be negative. I think he has learned the difficulties and problems with an unofficial patch and is trying to pass them on to you guys.

The MI 1.03 unofficial patch didn't work because it required too much switching of stats by novice computer guys and caused crashing of games between people with different versions loaded--not because the changes weren't good.

MI 1.02 patch worked, and helped the game, because it was official and everyone switched to it -- no problems.

If the changes you make are great, it won't matter unless you can get EA to put them into an official patch, otherwise the online community (which isn't all that big) will be split further into two smaller groups (not a good thing) So I think that makes people correctly hesitant about these things.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

ha ok thx shingen pointing me out puzz was helping us. well teh attacks lately at our den must have blinded me a bit.

btw chance EA for activision.

well we have lately 100 people online during european nights so 50-50 wouldnt be that harmfull, as teh days we have just 30 online.

it would be better if teh game allows dynamic stats. where teh statsfiles are transferred to each player when they join an host. that would be most flexible. ofcourse many see also disadvantages.

[RageMonsta]

I seem to remember the reason why the stats failed in WE/MI..

1) The failure of CA support for the project
2) The refusal of many of the 'over rated' players to give up their 'system play' that included guns and spear.
3) The coming of MTW.

Split the community these stats will?..it already seems split...and it becomes clearer each time Monsta reads the Org forum....it even seems like some of the admin are tipping their hats to a certain group....maybe not...if they are thats fine as we know it isnt a fan site anymore its a guest house.(not my words..just what we were told by the admin)

remember the words are 'freedom of choice'...if you want the stats then take em is you dont....dont take em...very simple.

There may be tourneys and campaigns developed to go with the stats...you may wish to change to them for these....and change back later.....what difference does it make.

Monsta doesnt really care...so long as CA remove the damn bugs....overwise the stats wont be an issue...because nobody will play anymore...

BTW....TWA seems very nice these days and seems to be interested in the on line/clan aspect more than the Org...which is fine as the Org has lots of work to do feeding all the SP people (or is it the other way around?).

[Magyar Khan]

u were right Monsta in your closed thread, somehow some have and some dont got their additional icons. I wonder what the criteria are. or is it the bOrg telling me they dont like me to have around? its hard to stay neutral.

[Kocmoc]

Quote[/b] ]LongJohn,
Can any adjustments for multiplayer playbalance make it into the first patch? Some suggestions could be made at this time, but they are preliminary. They are:

1) reduce the rate of fatigue substantially (50%?) since everone's units are becoming exhausted long before the end of a battle under even the best weather conditions which means it takes a long time to finish a battle since you can no longer run.

2) increase the speed of cav at least 10% and possibly even more (20%?) as long as it doesn't become too fast to handle.

3) Not sure about this, but possibly raise the overall morale a bit (+2?) since we are now purchasing units at valor 0 instead of valor 2.

Also, can the game be changed to load modified stats when you enter battle as was done in WE/MI? In MTW, a restart of the game is necessary to load a different stat but the pregame check is being done on the external stat file. To test this Tosa and I used a modified stat online. He restarted and I didn't. Although the pregame check allowed me to join his game, I went out of sync once in battle because my game did not actually load the modified stat. We verified using the F1 screen that Tosa had the modified stat loaded and I did not. We repeated the test twice.



hi puzz, ur ideas. I will them implent too, they are pretty good and i want to thank u to post the link again. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
i have a few questions...

- we thougth about the cavarcher (all cav stay at the speed they was in 1,1) as the CA is now a bit stronger, we need a counterunits, so i change the alancav to speed 26 and change to 28... u think thats enought? or isnt enought difference? maybe is good as well to make the turnspeed of the CA a bit slower?

- if u want all cavs a bit faster, u think realy all?
or maybe let the heavycav the old speed and just increase the ligthcav a bit?

thx again for any input

koc

[MagyarKhans Cham]

perhaps let knight the same and katapract , but less powerfull hcav may increase speed with 2 too...

maybe thats better for teh 2nd release? but if alan is available in all factions than alan is best counterunits. i dunno if 2 is enuf. we could do some speedcompetition with them and a real battle.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Orda Khan]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ Nov. 14 2002,10:35)]Koc & Mag,

I don't think Puzz is trying to be negative. I think he has learned the difficulties and problems with an unofficial patch and is trying to pass them on to you guys.

The MI 1.03 unofficial patch didn't work because it required too much switching of stats by novice computer guys and caused crashing of games between people with different versions loaded--not because the changes weren't good.

MI 1.02 patch worked, and helped the game, because it was official and everyone switched to it -- no problems.

If the changes you make are great, it won't matter unless you can get EA to put them into an official patch, otherwise the online community (which isn't all that big) will be split further into two smaller groups (not a good thing) So I think that makes people correctly hesitant about these things.
A good point but I disagree in part. The 103 MOD was a revelation. Drops were countered by using passworded battles. It never took off for a number of reasons

MTW was on the way so MI interest was already dwindling
The reluctance of many to even try it, could not or would not be bothered to download it.

The swap takes less than 10 seconds

Some are having download difficulties with errors

As far as stats go I have no beef with trying anything

.....Orda

[Azrael]

Hey Guys,

I'm confused. I asked about modifying stats for multiplayer, and a Developer from CA told me that it would make the person who did it unable to be "in sync" with the other players and the Server would boot them.

I was worried about people augmenting their Units when they played me online.

So you guys actually do this? And it works?

I see that most if not all of you are involved in the Clans. While generally this would be considered cheating, I suppose if your "altering" the stats to create what is agreed by both parties fighting to be a "more realistic" version of how the Units should react, then fair enough.

Is what the guy at CA told me correct? Or when I face someone on Multiplayer, could I unsuspectingly be up against an Uber-Army?

Please let me know.

Azrael

[Kocmoc]

hi azrael,


its easy to answer....

we have 2 diferent statsfiles, ifu go and change just the projectil-file u can join other player in MP, but if u use a unit wich u or the other changed in the statfile the game will crash...out of sync...

but, and this is a great and helpful thing...

ifu change the crusaderprod11 stat u get the info... "u use different stats"..if utry to join an other game...so, we wont see any out of sync as long we chaneg the crusaderprodfile as well....

if both or all player has the same stats, the game wont crash

hope i could help u a bit

koc

[baz]

can i ask if anyone has had information about a second "official" patch from CA?

if so would they consider implementing the stats that you talk about, when this patch is due to be released?

basically, i think it would be a good idea to see where they stand with this situation? there is talk about people not playing with unofficial stats maybe there is a way to make them official?

also is there a stat swapper available?

[Kocmoc]

a statswapper is available
ofcourse it would be nice if a official patch would implent our stats...i mailed gil about this....its a question of time....

koc

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i do think we will be granted a patch. we are an happy set of gamers and the developers are involved in helping us.

[baz]

keep us all informed what response you get koc http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Magyar Khan]

We should not give people false hope....