View Full Version : SS 6.4 - New SS 6.4 HS: preparations thread (2 turns per week)
Don't know very much about SS AR system but I did observe missile and cavalry units got up to 2-3 secondary hp while infantry 0 or 1. Secondary hp is not the main hit points you all know, it's a secondary hit points value, left over from RTW where it was used for elephant hit points, in M2TW it has no effect in lead battles but it has effect in AR. Otherwise this is probably the biggest improvement I see, along with the way unit stats were done, like spearmen having much lower attack value compared to vanilla.
*cough* *cough* you forgot to mention unit bonuses, such as ap or area effects for archers *cough* *cough*
Gaius Octavius Caesar
07-02-2014, 16:06
I like the save. Almost everyone has a fortress or more except Denmark, Kiev and TO from what i checked.
I said unit stats in general and gave an example. And do I have to say my experience with SS is 2 SP campaigns of ~20 turns each I played like 4 years ago so are irrelevant and currently 1 (one) played turn in BfE?
Area effect for archers waaaaaaat???
Invicta, I asked you before but I guess you didn't see it or didn't have time. Can you explain how SS AR works and differs from Vanilla?
The difference with Vanilla has to be with hidden bonuses given to the units.
But in general, AP (armor piercing) bonus has a much greater effect in SS than vanilla.
Moreover many cavalry units have 2/3 in number of soldiers compared to standard infantry units ( on the EDU file, its 32 units for those cavalry, while on vanilla MTWII it's 24 for all the cavalry units, and swordsmen are generally 48). Same goes for archers with some units that have 60 soldiers rather than standard 48.
Archers do well against infantry (both swordsmen and spearmen) in SS, while in vanilla all archers units are mostly weak. Archers are weak against cavalry in SS, while in vanilla due to the lack of hidden bonuses good archers mostly beat cavalry.
Spearmen are only good against non-late cavalry units. Normally i believe that the only spearmen units worthy to be recruited (but it still not an excellent choice) are the Heavy Spearmen recruitable by all the muslim factions.
Cavarly units do well against archers normally.
I made a test once: basically (in full stacks with 3 trials for same battles), comapring units with the same upkeep, ME Heavy archers could beat Castrophilake (medium-good swordsmen) as also Scoutatoi Spearmen (equivalent of ME Heavy Spearmen, just with a higher upkeep).
The same Heavy Archers got beaten by Stratiotae Cavalry (ERE average cavalry unit). Stratiotae cavalry gets beaten by spearmen and swordsmen.
The Castrophilake beats the Heavy Spearmen. Halberd Militia mostly beats the Castrophilakae (due to the AP bonus) and the Spearmen.
Also I tested Pike units vs spearmen, and generally pikes beat spearmen as also do better against cavalry,but might be weaker against other kind of units.
Also what many people don't take into account is the recruitment rate: many factions have good units, but recruitment rate may vary greatly and that makes a huge difference. For instance All fatmids elite units have a very high recruitment rate.
That's one of the main reason why Fatmids AI beats KoJ AI (KoJ has a good recruitment rate, but Fatmids are superior in that regard)
On the other hand factions like TO have usually very low recruitment rate .
Another very important aspect to be taken into consideration, is the fact that some faction gets most of its best units in castle/cities , some in fortresses/large cities some in Huge Cities/Citadels.
This hugely affects the game, compared to Vanilla MTWII, in which there's no much difference in strength between units recruitable in castles vs Citadel. In SS a unit recruitable in Citadel might be 20 times stronger than a unit recruitable in a castle.
In Vanilla MTWII even the strongest units can't be 20 times stronger than the weakest unit in the whole game.
For instance in a short SS vanilla HS Sicily might be a better choice than Venice, since Sicily gets for instance his best archers at castle level (while Venice needs a Fortress with Archery range built).
Scholarii are very strong because they have a very high defense (units with 24 or more defense-although it should be specifically related to the armor- do abnormally well against weaker units) and ap bonus.
Last but not least: real recruitment or not and late or early era. Early era is very unbalanced, with ERE way way overpowered (as they gets their best units while other factions do not). Same goes with real recruitment. Late Era with disable real recruitment is the best setup.
Rating unit roaster depends (for the reasons explained above ) on the conditions in which the HS is played (like I said in a short vanilla campaign Sicily might be better than Venice, but in the long term-like more than 60 turns- Venice is better than sicily).
A general rating would be like this:
Very good unit Roaster:
-England, Novgorod ,KoJ and Fatmids
Good Unit roaster:
France, HRE, Turks, Norway & Denmark, Kiev, Hungary, Kwarezm
Average unit roaster:
ERE, Venice, Genoa, Sicily,Moors, TO, Lithuania
Below average:
Poland, Castille, Portugal, Aragon
Very bad Unit roaster (only for legendary challenges)
-Scotland and Cumans
But again, keep in mind that this charts does not tell the whole story.
If Lithuania can get control of 2-3 large cities than its unit roaster can become incredibly strong.
Until many fortresses are developed, ERE roaster is among the best (scholarii are very good, but you can recruit only one every 2 turns in Constantinople only, so having good units doesn't tell the whole story).
If Aragon can take control of Leon and Oporto and Zaragoza develpo into Large city , it can recruit both the incredibly cost-effective units Montesa and Santiago.
If Denmark or Norway can build 4-5 huge cathedrals, then they'llhave the best unit roaster.
And so on..
Fatmids is the easiest unit roaster to manage, as Fatmids starts with 2 large cities, and a Fortress and in the middle have a faction with a fotress and a Huge city.
And you should take into account who are your neighbors: Castille might have a worse unit roaster than ERE.
But ERE have to face the Fatmids and the Turks , particularly the Fatmids and possibly the Russians too, with Hungary on the other end that is certainly not weaker. When you take that into account, you'll see how ERE is not that good. Turks are quite good, but Fatmids are more powerful (and they have also better economy and position). So they might do well against ERE (which has the best economy overall, and thus can support more armies) but they're at disadvantage against Fatmids.
France unit's roaster is very close in strength to England, but England has a much better position,and France has its best cavalry in Citadels, while English cavalry are not that good and gain little in that regard by having citadels which are very hard to develop.
Area effect for archers waaaaaaat???
That's my little secret.. ha ha ha (to be more precise, missile units)
But to be honest it probably dosn't work, I never realy tested it.
That's my little secret.. ha ha ha (to be more precise, missile units)
But to be honest it probably dosn't work, I never realy tested it.
I believe it works.
I also believe that with SS, having an army mixed with different kind of units is better than having a single type of units armies, so that different bonuses are given to the same army.
I do not agree that Turkey should be so great, and you sonnet, , why do you take empires so big, are you noob and do not know how to play? Or do not like to lose because you ruin your reputation as master of m2tw....
Gaius Octavius Caesar
07-02-2014, 18:07
I do not agree that Turkey should be so great, and you sonnet, , why do you take empires so big, are you noob and do not know how to play? Or do not like to lose because you ruin your reputation as master of m2tw....
Are you even reading what he wrote? Turkey wasnt picked, switch faction with him if you want the turks.
Are you even reading what he wrote? Turkey wasnt picked, switch faction with him if you want the turks.
From what you say it appears exactly as he had already chosen the Turks.
From what you say it appears exactly as he had already chosen the Turks.
I let everybody choose the factions.
Ebs was the last to join, and I offered him to choose between Moors/Sicily or Turks and he chose the former (Moors/Sicily). Here's the pm I sent him:
https://i58.tinypic.com/zsju46.png
Then Loose Cannon came after we started making the saves already, and took the block which until then was unplayable (Mongols/Cumans/Kwarezm). The faction choice has been made here in the thread, so anyone can read the thread.
My first choice would have been Venice/Genoa, but Core-i7-inside wanted them badly :laugh4:
Alternatively I could have chosen ERE. And in general I like factions in the middle of the map, because although more difficult to manage, there's also more action and excitement and political intrigue.
And like I wrote multiple times, if anybody wants the Turks just ask them as long as you can play in my time-slot
I do not agree that Turkey should be so great, and you sonnet, , why do you take empires so big, are you noob and do not know how to play? Or do not like to lose because you ruin your reputation as master of m2tw....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4AtBBVZ73U
Emproment
07-02-2014, 19:09
My opinion:
Give Bruges and Caen to Scotland and give York and Edinburgh to England. :) Or give Caen to France and give York to England? Personally I'd like to own as much of the UK as I can and as little of the continent as I can.
Also, how much micromanaging is going to be done to this map? It seems some kingdoms are in weird situations with their troops scattered and some kingdoms have waaaayyyy too much money while others are in the negative or close to bankruptcy.
Lord Luka
07-02-2014, 19:13
Ok so i believe the majority are still interested in starting the game as it is if i am right.I mean the save is not that bad.Not all the castles are developed but as far as i am concerned they don't have to be.Factions are pretty balanced too as far as i am concerned and with turks disbanding the 2 stacks at Constantinople I don't see a problem of turks beeing too powerfull.
We will never get a perfect save but with the proposed changes (To getting money and army, disbanding jihad armies etc.) i believe the save is good enough.I for one would really like to get this started.
Ok so i believe the majority are still interested in starting the game as it is if i am right.I mean the save is not bad.Not all the castles are developed but as far as i am concerned they don't have to be.Factions are pretty balanced too as far as i am concerned and with turks disbanding the 2 stacks at Constantinople I don't see a problem of turks beeing too powerfull.
This is what I like... the other isn't worth reading :P
With a little edit
yuonyuon
07-02-2014, 19:23
Are we going to start this , 2 weeks of setup .
EDIT SAVE IS GOOD FOR MEE!!!!
LETS START!
Emproment
07-02-2014, 19:31
Everyone is ok with the economical disparity?
Some kingdoms have 80k... others are in the negative.
Thanks Invicta. It seems that for one to be successfully at SS AR they have to get a good mix of units and train up generals, and go for strategic recruitment centers for their faction (and denying such to their enemies).
Mind if I add your write up in the SS section of my Hotseat guide? (See it stickied in the Throne Room) I will of course, give you credit and all that.
Faction choice: it needs to be known which faction you'll choose to play with:
Keep in mind that:
-Jihad armies will be disbanded.
-TO will get reinforcement and money (2 or 3 full stacks depending also on which Russian faction will be chosen)
-Castille will get an extra stack of santiago knights (half mounted , half dismounted) if Moors are chosen (if Sicily is chosen, then Castille shouldn't need any reinforcement being the only human faction in Iberia).
[00:00-13:00] Venice-Milan Core7-inside [08:00-21:00, time in Bangkok]
[13:00-17:00] Norway-Denmark Gaius Octavianus [15:00-19:00, time in Bucharest]
[17:00-21:00] Novgorod-kiev Makrell [18:00-22:00, Time in Oslo ]
[21:00-00:00] Moors-Sicily EBS [23:00-05:00, time in Sofia]
[00:00-06:00] Mongols-Kwarezm-Cumans Loose Cannon [19:00-01:00, time in Tampa]
[06:00-12:00] Turks Sonnet
[15:00-19:00] koJ- Fatmid Dur3x [17:00-21:00, time in Bucharest]
[19:00-23:00] Castille-Port Yuonyuon [21:00-01:00, time in Bucharest]
[23:00-06:00] England-Scotland Emproment
[06:00-10:00] HRE-Poland Tonno [07:00-11:00,time in Zagreb ]
[10:00-15:30] France- Aragon Jiub [12:00-18:00,time in Bucharest]
[16:00-19:30] ERE-Hungary Lord Luka [17:00-20:30,time in
[19:30-24:00] TO-Lithuania Vipman [21:30-01:00,time in Bucharest]
Please make your preference public.
Myth : I don't mind it at all. On the contrary, I'd be glad.
Gaius Octavius Caesar
07-02-2014, 20:42
Norway sounds good. Denmark is in really bad shape.
Kiev, and dont care which turn we start
Kiev, and dont care which turn we start
Excellent we just need confirmation from EBS about which faction he wants and then we can start.
yuonyuon
07-03-2014, 07:51
Excellent we just need confirmation from EBS about which faction he wants and then we can start.if you will catch online this week then you are lucky .
if you will catch online this week then you are lucky .
Is he away?
Core-i7-inside
07-03-2014, 08:41
I'm checking the save.
Core-i7-inside
07-03-2014, 08:58
The save works fine(I think). :yes:
The save works fine(I think). :yes:
So I assume you're fine with Venice? (Genoa was not turned human but it appears to be much weaker)
I need to check the save.. but I can do this after work.. or if its late Sonnet choose for me.. to dont wait more..
Gaius Octavius Caesar
07-03-2014, 10:01
I need to check the save.. but I can do this after work.. or if its late Sonnet choose for me.. to dont wait more..
Sicily own their starting settlements: Napoli, Bari and Palermo IIRC and the Moors are kinda huge ( all N Africa + Cordoba, Granada and Murcia in Iberia)
yuonyuon
07-03-2014, 10:25
Sicily own their starting settlements: Napoli, Bari and Palermo IIRC and the Moors are kinda huge ( all N Africa + Cordoba, Granada and Murcia in Iberia)What do you mean they are kind a huge , Sicily and Moors are the same as it is on turn 1 just a little bit evolved i will say.
The map is awesome . everything is perfect .
if he chose Moors he will jump strait in war with Castilia that s for sure
EDIT : WAR IS NOT A BAD THING in HS . also if he chose Sicily that didn t mean he will be better .other enemies are waiting there
I need to check the save.. but I can do this after work.. or if its late Sonnet choose for me.. to dont wait more.. ebs
Like Gaius Octavius Caesar said, Sicily has its start starting regions as in Vanilla, 2 full stacks and 2k as treasury.
https://i62.tinypic.com/30b1a9d.jpg
Moors have also the same starting regions as in Vanilla (with the addition of Cagliari), 2k in the treasury as Sicily, but many more armies.
https://i58.tinypic.com/15x4gea.jpg
https://i59.tinypic.com/2gxeir6.jpg
https://i57.tinypic.com/r1lw5g.jpg
Choosing Moors you'd have a relatively easy start (with this setup maybe the safest starting position). Sicily will be a quite though start (not impossible but very though, and you'll need some good diplomacy and you'd might expand slower, because the HS will be in auto-resolve only). If you want to be safe and sure your campaign will last choose the Moors. Sicily is a high risk campaign (if you get targeted by someone, otherwise with some good diplomacy -NAP with Venice mainly- you could have an entertaining campaign expanding against the Moors-).
Gaius Octavius Caesar
07-03-2014, 11:12
What do you mean they are kind a huge , Sicily and Moors are the same as it is on turn 1 just a little bit evolved i will say.
The map is awesome . everything is perfect .
if he chose Moors he will jump strait in war with Castilia that s for sure
EDIT : WAR IS NOT A BAD THING in HS . also if he chose Sicily that didn t mean he will be better .other enemies are waiting there
You re right. I forgot that Moors start like that, i was probably thinking at Early Era Moors..
Core-i7-inside
07-03-2014, 11:23
So I assume you're fine with Venice? (Genoa was not turned human but it appears to be much weaker)
Sure, Venice is my favorite one. :)
EDIT : WAR IS NOT A BAD THING in HS . also if he chose Sicily that didn t mean he will be better .other enemies are waiting there
I am waiting. :rolleyes:
So Moors I think..
Will be start in turn 44 or we wait till 60+ ?
So Moors I think..
Will be start in turn 44 or we wait till 60+ ?
We start exactly on what you see in the save, meaning on turn 44 ;)
We start exactly on what you see in the save, meaning on turn 44 ;) ebs : yes like Jiub said we'll start on turn 44.
Guys the passwords will be set by Myth and sent it to you, and the official subbers you named.
As anticipated, some factions will get some reinforcements.
1-TO: will get 3 full stacks (57 units) and will get +60 (it starts with -8k, plus its first turn was skipped -my fault- and thus the treasury will go further down )so the faction will start approximately with 45k. All its neighbors have similar level of treasury and TO it's the weakest human faction. The 3 stacks will be composed as follow: 1 siege weapon, 5 sword brethren , 5 halberd militia, 5 knetchen, 3 livonian crossbowmen.
Those units might be distributed between the armies in the open and the settlements.
Reason for this is (as I explained to Vipman in a pm):
-all your human neighbors have a better unit roaster.
-All your human neighbors (your closest neighbors might be HRE, Hungary,Norway and Kiev) starts with more settlements (and unit recruitable in the pool) and the money necessary to recruit them. So they can raise the stack very quickly. You start with 2 settlements only. Even after
conquering the first settlements you'll need some turns before being able to recruit more units. Even 10 turns to recruit some special elite unit.
-Your neighbors have all higher recruitment rate for their units. Particularly the ones recruitable in fortresses.
-TO gets 3 armies, but to get the same number of settlement as its neighbors it might likely loose 1 of the 3 stacks, so considering this TO is not really getting 3 full stacks. This HS is AR only.
Also since it's being "skipped" on turn 44 (again my fault: TO was meant to be the first, as in fact it is in the turn order, but I probably confused Myth as in the Time schedule Venice appears to be the first), TO armies in the outside will be moved on TO borders (so the armies will still be within TO regions).
2-Castille will get a full stack (20 units) of Santiago units (10 dismounted Santiago knights and 10 mounted santiago knights).
3-Norway start with less units than every other faction (and only 5 settlements): they'll get 15 units (huskarl axemen and foot men at arms). Those will be placed in Skara.
So the save will be exactly as the one you checked with exception of the above changes.
Also all the muslim players have to disband the Jihad armies at the start of their turn (as first thing before doing anything else). They can still use the extra mov.points given to their generals to return those more quickly to their lands.
FYI I found out that I had posted a pretty comprehensive list of console commands in my guide. Turns out I can turn any settlement we want into a Fortress (I can add population and finish construciton via console). Do we want to add Fortressses to the north of Europe?
FYI I found out that I had posted a pretty comprehensive list of console commands in my guide. Turns out I can turn any settlement we want into a Fortress (I can add population and finish construciton via console). Do we want to add Fortressses to the north of Europe? Myth:
There's only one faction imo that should get a fortress: Kiev, since Kiev is the only faction which as not either a fortress or some close by (or have some castle very close to upgrade). If you can also build barracks, archery range and baron stable in that fortress, so that'll make one but very good fortress.
All the other factions should be fine in that regards.
I'm sending you a pm with all the exact commands for the reinforcements.
So if pls upgrade Bryansk to a fortress.
All the agents rules are applicable against both, humans and AI: please respect them
So this rule is based on trust only then, some would respect it but others could get away because no one else find out about it, not sure how fair is that...
So this rule is based on trust only then, some would respect it but others could get away because no one else find out about it, not sure how fair is that...
Well this rule is for debate. Like you said is based on trust.
If players do not want agent rules applied to the AI then pls say so.
I have to add that this rule was thought with a map with the unconquerable area (when Kwarezm-Mongols slot was not going to be played by anyone, before Loose Cannon joined). Basically to keep a threat for the Muslim and russian factions (and not let have them easy game), I wanted avoid that someone could easily kill those factions by simply killing the family members (thus making all the settlement in the unconquerable area going rebel, and eliminating the threat with just few assassins).
Same would apply for AI factions in the conquerable map.
Guys I just want you remind a few features of the HS that someone might not have noticed:
-History is written by the victors : basically when a conflict comes to an end (like a faction is destroyed by another, or a war ends and a victor between the 2 is named), only the winner will have the right to write the history of the war (it'll end up in the 1st page in the appropriate section). The victor will write his version of the war in few lines. What he writes might not be necessarily true (so for instance, if Turks attack Hungary with a false pretext and win the war, I can write that the pretext was true and add more lies to it).
And the loser can't talk about the war he has lost any more in the thread.
Just to be clear: this has no real direct effect in the game. But it adds propaganda (as the time passes, and players forget about past wars, they'll refer to the section and the propaganda might have some effect.
-Official deals might remain secret until the very end & Bad reputation: you can make either official deals -which will end up in the appropriate section in the first page of the HS thread- or make a secret deal (known only between the 2 players).
If you choose to keep the deal secret, then if one of the 2 party involved breaks it or betrays it, you cannot make it public the betrayal.
You'll have to bite the bullet. This way we add a new option in the game: officially somehow give some protection since if the a player breaks an official deal his reputation will be publicly damaged and he'd end up in the "bad reputation" list.
If the player wants to keep the deal secret, he'll gain the advantage of secrecy but the trade-off will be the higher risk involved (since the other player can betrays him without suffering any consequence to its reputation).
Ha... look who came 200 years early:
https://i60.tinypic.com/2cy5kax.jpg
All the agents rules are applicable against both, humans and AI: please respect themSo this rule is based on trust only then, some would respect it but others could get away because no one else find out about it, not sure how fair is that...
So this rule remains because I see no one saying he'd like to remove it... ok then...
Tonno should I know who that is?
So this rule remains because I see no one saying he'd like to remove it... ok then...
Tonno should I know who that is?
I believe Tonno is referring to this man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huldrych_Zwingli
LooseCannon1
07-04-2014, 18:20
So this rule remains because I see no one saying he'd like to remove it... ok then...
I'd also like to see the rule not applied to AI factions. Level 1 and 2 agents will not find any targets to improve their skills upon.
LooseCannon1 & Vipman
Would it be fine if at least assassin can't kill AI Family members , but everything else is legit?
LooseCannon1
07-04-2014, 18:40
LooseCannon1 & Vipman
Would it be fine if at least assassin can't kill AI Family members , but everything else is legit?
That sounds better.
Vipman Tonno Makrell yuonyuon Core-i7-inside dur3x Tonno Jiub Emproment ebs Gaius Octavius Caesar Lord Luka
Ok under request of Vipman and LooseCannon1 this rule
All the agents rules are applicable against both, humans and AI: please respect them
changed in this one:
-You can't assassinate AI Family members : please respect this rule
So basically this is the only rule you need to respect (concerning the agents) against the AI.
It shouldn't change much, but if anyone wants to oppose this change please state your opinion
I was ok with the last one, but I accept the change.
Vipman Tonno Makrell yuonyuon Core-i7-inside dur3x Tonno Jiub Emproment ebs Gaius Octavius Caesar Lord Luka
Guys just 2 things to make the game smoother:
1- You should not stop playing unless the admin Myth (or Nightbringer) says so. If you suspect or even if you're sure someone broke the rules or worse cheated, send a pm to both the admins, but in the meanwhile you need to keep playing.
That's because: most of the times someone asks for a check, no rules are broken. In that case you'd stopped the game needlessly.
Even when rules are broken the issue can be easily solved by assigning punishments compensations.
Game will be stopped and turns replayed only when something really serious happens and that can't be fixed with the console by the admins.
2- Keep sending notifications to the player who comes after you. But in any case, not receiving any notification is not a valid reason to not play: each one of us know exactly which days of the week and time is turn will come up for sure (it may come up earlier and that's why notifications are still important, to facilitate each one of us).
Vipman Tonno Makrell yuonyuon Core-i7-inside dur3x Tonno Jiub Emproment ebs Gaius Octavius Caesar Lord Luka
Guys remember that you can only keep 1 assassin every 25 regions.
Ebs just pm'ed me because he has too many assassins and killing them takes a lot of reloading.
If you have the same problem, you can kill those in the next 1-3 turns . Just remember to only use one and kill the rest(through suicide) asap in the next turns.
Vipman Tonno Makrell yuonyuon Core-i7-inside dur3x Tonno Jiub Emproment ebs Gaius Octavius Caesar Lord Luka
Guys I added 2 new features about the Reputation mechanism:
1-the Succession-to-the-throne(aka change of player) with the untrusted Crowns list
2-The legend: a series of options that can be inserted into the deals. I got inspired by Jiub. You can still keep secret secondary terms for your deal, as long as they're clear and you keep a copy of the acceptance of such deals. But now you have also those option to use, if you want to keep everything in the open. For now there are only 2 options, but more can be added (if you have idea about the options, feel free to suggest new ones, the first option was from Jiub for instance. just remember they need to be extremely clear with no room for doubts, to avoid uncertainty about their interpretation/effects/execution)
It's possible I won't be able to play my turn on Saturday. If that's the case Tonno got the instruction to sub me.
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