Malmo will be the great northern capital of the new caliphate

[Strike For The South]

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.603555?v=3C2CFFFAE6C06A9E6C742E0641610185

I'm so glad America ended up with immigrants who love pork and alcohol instead of genital mutilation and polygamy


Better make a trip to Sweden before it stops being Sweden

[HoreTore]

lol.

[Husar]

I'm so glad America ended up with immigrants who love pork and alcohol instead of genital mutilation and polygamy

I wouldn't be so sure about that:

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/kkk01.htm

Part III ventures upon an extended discussion of the klans' purposeful application of sexualized violence towards the realization of their racialist agenda. Through whippings, rape, lynching, genital mutilation, and other nameless tortures, these groups sought aggressively to undermine the resolve of the freedpeople and their supporters in an effort to reinvigorate a system of uncontestable white male supremacy.

According to Steven Seagal (and Chuck Norris) movies the natives would've also preferred immigrants who are more in tune with nature.

[Strike For The South]

I wouldn't be so sure about that:

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/kkk01.htm


According to Steven Seagal (and Chuck Norris) movies the natives would've also preferred immigrants who are more in tune with nature.

lol propagating the noble savage idea. You racist. Amerindians hurt the environment just as much as the European migrants. Also lol to your article a group that barley exists anymore to mainstream malmo immigrants is lol hilarious

[Sarmatian]

Muslims are overpowered now that they've toned down decadence, and they can create an empire level title while holding just a few counties. What's up with that???

[HoreTore]

lol propagating the noble savage idea. You racist. Amerindians hurt the environment just as much as the European migrants. Also lol to your article a group that barley exists anymore to mainstream malmo immigrants is lol hilarious

....yet you do not see anything obviously wrong with the immigrant numbers given by Haaretz...?

[Husar]

lol propagating the noble savage idea. You racist. Amerindians hurt the environment just as much as the European migrants. Also lol to your article a group that barley exists anymore to mainstream malmo immigrants is lol hilarious

Look, Steven Seagal is my hero, mkay.
There is still genital mutilation going on in your country even if you disregard the lunatics:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--LJXjslEGk

[a completely inoffensive name]

European style multiculturalism will only bring about a new wave of right wing reactionaries that want to bring Europe back 70 years.

[Beskar]

has brought*

[a completely inoffensive name]

has brought*

If you think it's bad now, wait until the Euroskeptics start taking a majority in European Parliament elections. Then you get to experience American style "starve the beast" tactics in action.

[Husar]

European style multiculturalism will only bring about a new wave of right wing reactionaries that want to bring Europe back 70 years.

The British are not representative for all of Europe, they're your shills.

[HoreTore]

If you think it's bad now, wait until the Euroskeptics start taking a majority in European Parliament elections. Then you get to experience American style "starve the beast" tactics in action.

They won't.

You think the republican party is divided? The European far right block is even more prone to splits than the craziest of the ML-parties. Remember that the European far right includes several parties who view each other as criminal scum, like the Slovakian SNS and Jobbik*. It's a bit hard to create a functional bloc when 25% of the members believe that the other 25% should be exterminated. This is in addition to the already immense problems the individual parties face. The standard is that a party manages to pull off one electoral success, and then they disintegrate before the next election, and then have to start from scratch again. Look at the BNP. The UKIP managed to come back, but they already shown signs of cracking(the "should we bash gays or not"-issue). They'll blow up before the next election, and then we'll have to wait another election before we see the new BNP/UKIP-clone rise.


*Heck, Jobbik doesn't even recognize Slovakia as an actual country!

[Papewaio]

Yes by definition ultra nationalists are unlikely to be internationalists unless you include international relations by either invasion or isolation.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.603555?v=3C2CFFFAE6C06A9E6C742E0641610185

I'm so glad America ended up with immigrants who love pork and alcohol instead of genital mutilation and polygamy


Better make a trip to Sweden before it stops being Sweden

Oh I dunno, could have been ethnic Swedes.

Give it a few days.


Muslims are overpowered now that they've toned down decadence, and they can create an empire level title while holding just a few counties. What's up with that???

I dunno, but they'll be launching a new Sunni Jihad for Jerusalem once the Religious Authority gets high enough now they have a Caliph, and the Byzantine Empire and HRE are both unformed!

:help:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

lol propagating the noble savage idea. You racist. Amerindians hurt the environment just as much as the European migrants....

Not true, Strike....though from what I have read the only reason they didn't was that their tech wasn't up to doing more to the environment. They certainly modified terrain wherever they could to improve hunting and their brand of agro.

[Fragony]

Malmo is a hellhole, well done Sweden. No multiculturism doesn't work you leftist idiots. You imported colonists, immigrants leave their issues behind. Swedish women face the consequences every day, rape capital of the world. All assault-rapes, yes all, in the last five years were commited by non-western immigrants. Read muslims.

[Husar]

Not true, Strike....though from what I have read the only reason they didn't was that their tech wasn't up to doing more to the environment. They certainly modified terrain wherever they could to improve hunting and their brand of agro.

Yeah, but that hardly counts as many animals "destroy" the environment in similar ways. The problem is that humans have no predators or food shortages to keep their population small. People say the earth can take many more of us but what will be left of the earth shortly after we exceed that maximum number? Aren't we all glad that we have nukes to kill ourselves with and prevent that?

[Ironside]

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.603555?v=3C2CFFFAE6C06A9E6C742E0641610185

I'm so glad America ended up with immigrants who love pork and alcohol instead of genital mutilation and polygamy


Better make a trip to Sweden before it stops being Sweden

If Malmö is the new caliphate, what's then Texas? (http://www.texasobserver.org/texas-gops-sara-legvold-problem/)

[Montmorency]

Thread need nap?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

(Short version:) Zionist News Sources, You are all Extremists, digusted you are on the forum, leave and never return, especially Strike for the South the closet racist.

5 posts and you already have at least 3 expletives in print. Kudos. You may have your alternate account closed in something approaching a record.

[rickinator9]

5 posts and you already have at least 3 expletives in print. Kudos. You may have your alternate account closed in something approaching a record.

If you quote something, at least do it properly.

[Beskar]

If you quote something, at least do it properly. That was my fault, I summed it up in the quote so you get the jist of it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

They won't.

You think the republican party is divided? The European far right block is even more prone to splits than the craziest of the ML-parties. Remember that the European far right includes several parties who view each other as criminal scum, like the Slovakian SNS and Jobbik*. It's a bit hard to create a functional bloc when 25% of the members believe that the other 25% should be exterminated. This is in addition to the already immense problems the individual parties face. The standard is that a party manages to pull off one electoral success, and then they disintegrate before the next election, and then have to start from scratch again. Look at the BNP. The UKIP managed to come back, but they already shown signs of cracking(the "should we bash gays or not"-issue). They'll blow up before the next election, and then we'll have to wait another election before we see the new BNP/UKIP-clone rise.


*Heck, Jobbik doesn't even recognize Slovakia as an actual country!

It really doesn't matter when they all hate the EU. You have to understand that you really don't need consensus among opposition to choke government. You just need enough people to gum up the works with their insanity and refusal to cooperate. In a very real sense, their hatred towards each other is exactly my point entirely. You won't even have a functioning right wing government, you will have complete and utter deadlock that will slowly erode the various programs the EU is involved with due to the extensive inaction.

[HoreTore]

It really doesn't matter when they all hate the EU. You have to understand that you really don't need consensus among opposition to choke government. You just need enough people to gum up the works with their insanity and refusal to cooperate. In a very real sense, their hatred towards each other is exactly my point entirely. You won't even have a functioning right wing government, you will have complete and utter deadlock that will slowly erode the various programs the EU is involved with due to the extensive inaction.

.....except they don't even agree on hating the EU. Several of the 'usual suspects' right-wingers actually want the EU. I believe it was a UKIP member who withdrew from the previous nutter coalition, citing "members want the EU to remain" as his reason.

Also, EU politics work in blocks. If you can't create a functional block, you can't do much. Having a large portion of the MEP's throwing tantrums constantly won't block much.

[a completely inoffensive name]

.....except they don't even agree on hating the EU.

nvm, european politics is silly.

[Papewaio]

nvm, european politics is silly.

Fixed

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Fixed

Spoken like a man living in a democracy without serious military, economic, or social problems.

Any news on who the miscreants are?

[HoreTore]

Spoken like a man living in a democracy without serious military, economic, or social problems.

Any news on who the miscreants are?

Overwhelmingly likely to be of arab origins, judging by the facebook legions of supporters, which includes a disturbingly high amount of young women, most pictured without religious headwear of any kind.

As such, arab nationalism seems more likely than religious fundies, although it can of course be a combo.

[Fragony]

Overwhelmingly likely to be of arab origins, judging by the facebook legions of supporters, which includes a disturbingly high amount of young women, most pictured without religious headwear of any kind.

As such, arab nationalism seems more likely than religious fundies, although it can of course be a combo.

Big lol, who the hell are you kidding

[Kadagar_AV]

I don't recognize Sweden these days... Over only ten or so years we went from 8 mil people to 9 mil people, most of these from Africa or the Middle East. Go on the subway and you could think you'r in some African country.

Quite a few areas are overrun completely, my childhood town among them. You barely see a ethnic Swede there these days because of the white flight...

It's tragic what happens to Sweden. We used to be a wellfare state, but these days the social net has so many holes in it, that you can't count on it catching you, would you fall.

My own brother is homeless, as an example. That didn't use to happen.

I miss Sweden of old, and with the mass immigration we will never get it back, or even get close to it.

It's a shame, if you ask me. The "new" Sweden has gypsy beggars/thieves outside every store, and African rape gangs.

Oh well, I have my Austrian citizenship... So I'll be able to get away when Sweden collapse, my guess would be within 5 years or so.

[Papewaio]

I don't recognize Sweden these days... Over only ten or so years we went from 8 mil people to 9 mil people, most of these from Africa or the Middle East. Go on the subway and you could think you'r in some African country.

Quite a few areas are overrun completely, my childhood town among them. You barely see a ethnic Swede there these days because of the white flight...

It's tragic what happens to Sweden. We used to be a wellfare state, but these days the social net has so many holes in it, that you can't count on it catching you, would you fall.

My own brother is homeless, as an example. That didn't use to happen.

I miss Sweden of old, and with the mass immigration we will never get it back, or even get close to it.

It's a shame, if you ask me. The "new" Sweden has gypsy beggars/thieves outside every store, and African rape gangs.

Oh well, I have my Austrian citizenship... So I'll be able to get away when Sweden collapse, my guess would be within 5 years or so.

Yeah the economy has gone to hell in Sweden in the last ten years according to Wikipedia:

"The government budget has improved dramatically from a record deficit of more than 12% of GDP in 1993. In the last decade, from 1998 to present, the government has run a surplus every year, except for 2003 and 2004. The surplus for 2011 is expected to be 99 billion ($15b) kronor.[40] The new, strict budget process with spending ceilings set by the Riksdag, and a constitutional change to an independent Central Bank, have greatly improved policy credibility."

Long term you might become a multicultural country like Australia and have a really awful economy:
"According to the 2011 Credit Suisse Global Wealth report, Australia has a median wealth of US$222,000 ($217,559), the highest in the world and nearly four times the amount of each US adult.[41] The proportion of those with wealth above US$100,000 is the highest of any country – eight times the world average.[41] Average wealth was $US397,000, the world's second-highest after Switzerland.[53]"

Sad sad future.

[Rhyfelwyr]

"The government budget has improved dramatically from a record deficit of more than 12% of GDP in 1993. In the last decade, from 1998 to present, the government has run a surplus every year, except for 2003 and 2004. The surplus for 2011 is expected to be 99 billion ($15b) kronor.[40] The new, strict budget process with spending ceilings set by the Riksdag, and a constitutional change to an independent Central Bank, have greatly improved policy credibility."

I would question whether or not this shows a positive change (although there is of course only a pretty limited direct link to immigration). Who are these "spending ceilings" hitting? Corporate business or the poor?

I think what really has happened is that Sweden has abandoned its social democracy and become another crony capitalist set up. I think this is the real reason why Kad feels that Sweden has changed so much, why his brother was left homeless when that would have been unthinkable in the past. Immigration has perhaps contributed to this transition in some way (eg, overwhelming the welfare system and making unsustainable, breaking down the sense of national unity that social democracy is based on, etc).

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah the economy has gone to hell in Sweden in the last ten years according to Wikipedia:

"The government budget has improved dramatically from a record deficit of more than 12% of GDP in 1993. In the last decade, from 1998 to present, the government has run a surplus every year, except for 2003 and 2004. The surplus for 2011 is expected to be 99 billion ($15b) kronor.[40] The new, strict budget process with spending ceilings set by the Riksdag, and a constitutional change to an independent Central Bank, have greatly improved policy credibility."

Long term you might become a multicultural country like Australia and have a really awful economy:
"According to the 2011 Credit Suisse Global Wealth report, Australia has a median wealth of US$222,000 ($217,559), the highest in the world and nearly four times the amount of each US adult.[41] The proportion of those with wealth above US$100,000 is the highest of any country – eight times the world average.[41] Average wealth was $US397,000, the world's second-highest after Switzerland.[53]"

Sad sad future.

Yes, sad sad future.

The state used to own and handle healthcare, education, transportation and so on. Now the state has sold it all out, explaining the numbers you found. Heck, even the pensions are now tied to the stock market, you aren't even allowed a retirement soon...

Is it a long term solution, heck no. The state can only sell something once. The backlash, or hungover, will as I said come somewhere around 2018.

National economics have showed that Sweden lose about 250bil a year to immigration, or roughly more than, say, our universal healthcare used to cost.


I would question whether or not this shows a positive change (although there is of course only a pretty limited direct link to immigration). Who are these "spending ceilings" hitting? Corporate business or the poor?

I think what really has happened is that Sweden has abandoned its social democracy and become another crony capitalist set up. I think this is the real reason why Kad feels that Sweden has changed so much, why his brother was left homeless when that would have been unthinkable in the past. Immigration has perhaps contributed to this transition in some way (eg, overwhelming the welfare system and making unsustainable, breaking down the sense of national unity that social democracy is based on, etc).

Exactly.

The shift from socialistic to capitalistic by and large happened because of the immigration. People don't TRUST the fellow citizens like they used to, thus they vote away the social security net. A shame, really. Sweden used to have something good going on.

Heck, even I don't vote socialistic, as I see immigrants profiting like crazy from it, whereas Ethic swedes are left out in the cold.

I used to be proud of Sweden, now I'm not.

[Papewaio]

Yes, sad sad future.

The state used to own and handle healthcare, education, transportation and so on. Now the state has sold it all out, explaining the numbers you found. Heck, even the pensions are now tied to the stock market, you aren't even allowed a retirement soon...

Is it a long term solution, heck no. The state can only sell something once. The backlash, or hungover, will as I said come somewhere around 2018.

National economics have showed that Sweden lose about 250bil a year to immigration, or roughly more than, say, our universal healthcare used to cost.



Exactly.

The shift from socialistic to capitalistic by and large happened because of the immigration. People don't TRUST the fellow citizens like they used to, thus they vote away the social security net. A shame, really. Sweden used to have something good going on.

Heck, even I don't vote socialistic, as I see immigrants profiting like crazy from it, whereas Ethic swedes are left out in the cold.

I used to be proud of Sweden, now I'm not.

So your argument boils down to perceiving ethnic Swedes being too clannish and tribal to form a nation state with other ethnic groups.

Isn't that the same argument that you use against Africans?

[Kadagar_AV]

So your argument boils down to perceiving ethnic Swedes being too clannish and tribal to form a nation state with other ethnic groups.

Isn't that the same argument that you use against Africans?

Uuuuh... Now that was a loop of an argument.

My claim is that the functional NATION of Sweden got hindered when we started accepting people from extremely ill thought out cultures.

Disastrous cultures even, I dare say.

So no, my argument has absolutely nothing to do with anything you claimed.

Thanks for playing, I give you 5 points. Out of a hundred, mind you. And mainly because you spelled very well.

[Fragony]

Sweden's immigration-policy is insanity alright, the worse the better. It's almost as if Sweden wants to prove something, HERE IT WORKS! Except it doesn't. Minor detail of course, but multiculturalism is of course 100% superduper OK

[Kadagar_AV]

Sweden's immigration-policy is insanity alright, the worse the better. It's almost as if Sweden wants to prove something, HERE IT WORKS! Except it doesn't. Minor detail of course, but multiculturalism is of course 100% superduper OK

You hit the nail on the head there...

I wonder what Ironside thinks, he used to be pro-multiculturalism IIRC, but these days a lot of people have started to understand that it just.isnt.working.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Multiculturalism is like Marxism. It must work because it is a theory that covers everything -- once you accept it's "givens."

Neither of them works very well in practice. Marxism did serve as a positive agent for social change through its critique of the less savory aspects of unregulated capitalism. So can multiculturalism through its critique of ethnocentrism and racism.

In practice however, the best that can be hoped for is a what scholars term "cultural hybridity," wherein the migrant functions in both their parent and the adoptive cultures, balancing the particulars of locale, participants, and subject/activity so as to both maintain aspects of their parent culture that provide value and a sense of identity while assimilating within the strictures of the new cultures norms and mores.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Uuuuh... Now that was a loop of an argument.

My claim is that the functional NATION of Sweden got hindered when we started accepting people from extremely ill thought out cultures.

Disastrous cultures even, I dare say.

So no, my argument has absolutely nothing to do with anything you claimed.

Thanks for playing, I give you 5 points. Out of a hundred, mind you. And mainly because you spelled very well.

It's less to do with who they are, and more to do with who they aren't.

They aren't Swedes, or even Nordics, they have no investment in Sweden - so they feel no particular compulsion not to leach.

[Papewaio]

Multiculturalism is like Marxism. It must work because it is a theory that covers everything -- once you accept it's "givens."

Neither of them works very well in practice. Marxism did serve as a positive agent for social change through its critique of the less savory aspects of unregulated capitalism. So can multiculturalism through its critique of ethnocentrism and racism.

In practice however, the best that can be hoped for is a what scholars term "cultural hybridity," wherein the migrant functions in both their parent and the adoptive cultures, balancing the particulars of locale, participants, and subject/activity so as to both maintain aspects of their parent culture that provide value and a sense of identity while assimilating within the strictures of the new cultures norms and mores.

Explain Australia then which is a real working not just a theory of a multicultural society. Because right now your theory looks like it jus went for a run with the bulls and all it can show is a gaping gore wound and its left covered witoh bulldust.

Here is a few facts:
24% of the Australian population is born overseas to many different ethnic and cultural groups.
Another 20% have at least one parent born overseas

Yet we have a relatively buoyant economy, fairly good sporting prowess, relatively good health and in general good all around social indicators.

[Kadagar_AV]

Multiculturalism is like Marxism. It must work because it is a theory that covers everything -- once you accept it's "givens."

Neither of them works very well in practice. Marxism did serve as a positive agent for social change through its critique of the less savory aspects of unregulated capitalism. So can multiculturalism through its critique of ethnocentrism and racism.

In practice however, the best that can be hoped for is a what scholars term "cultural hybridity," wherein the migrant functions in both their parent and the adoptive cultures, balancing the particulars of locale, participants, and subject/activity so as to both maintain aspects of their parent culture that provide value and a sense of identity while assimilating within the strictures of the new cultures norms and mores.

What I have found is that quite a lot of people tend to take the bad things from each culture. And also spread it.

As an example, in Sweden very many men use "snuff"... It's tobacco you put under your lip. Where I worked in Austria, there were quite many swedes... And now the male population there have a snuff problem. Us swedes in return happily took up their drinking habits.

This is just one example of multiculturalism not working for the better...




It's less to do with who they are, and more to do with who they aren't.

They aren't Swedes, or even Nordics, they have no investment in Sweden - so they feel no particular compulsion not to leach.

I don't really have anything to add to that... I completely agree.

It is a shame, though.


Explain Australia then which is a real working not just a theory of a multicultural society. Because right now your theory looks like it jus went for a run with the bulls and all it can show is a gaping gore wound and its left covered witoh bulldust.

Here is a few facts:
24% of the Australian population is born overseas to many different ethnic and cultural groups.
Another 20% have at least one parent born overseas

Yet we have a relatively buoyant economy, fairly good sporting prowess, relatively good health and in general good all around social indicators.

1. Ask the aborigines what they think of the immigration?

2. You basically have workers coming, and they have to prove their worth before they enter.

3. You don't accept very many people from the scum cultures of the earth.

4. You never had a wellfare thingy to protect.

5. The very idea of Australia is based on multiculturalism. Swedens idea wasn't, and it worked quite well. Now it is, and it's killing what Sweden used to be: A place where people were safe... Economically, mentally and physically.



Multiculturalism is ****.

It has already killed Sweden, fight against it if the tendency spreads to your country.

[Papewaio]

Uuuuh... Now that was a loop of an argument.

My claim is that the functional NATION of Sweden got hindered when we started accepting people from extremely ill thought out cultures.

Disastrous cultures even, I dare say.

So no, my argument has absolutely nothing to do with anything you claimed.

Thanks for playing, I give you 5 points. Out of a hundred, mind you. And mainly because you spelled very well.

Hindered how? You are saying that your country has more immigrants in the last ten years then ever, yet your economy has grown steadily stronger over the last ten years. Your government taxes are less of a part of GDP yet your government is running a surplus.

So economically it is in a stronger position. How is that for hinderance?

If people are being left out of the social safety net and you have a surplus the problem is with the government purse strings.

"The shift from socialistic to capitalistic by and large happened because of the immigration. People don't TRUST the fellow citizens like they used to, thus they vote away the social security net. A shame, really. Sweden used to have something good going on.

Heck, even I don't vote socialistic, as I see immigrants profiting like crazy from it, whereas Ethic swedes are left out in the cold."

So you are maintaining that the majority (Swedish ethnic) who in a democray generally get to set trends and vote outcomes does not want to lossen the purse strings and that only the immigrants be benefit/profit from social welfare. Either the majority have set up a very unfair system that ends up only benefitting those who immigrate or there is something more to this picture.

From you own paragraphs you are saying that Ethnic Swedes (majority) do not trust their fellow citizens and hence the tightening of the purse strings. Yet you then also say that in this situation only the immigrants are smart enough to profit. Without living in Sweden and a dearth of facts I find it highly implausible.

But it does come across as Ethnic Swedes haven't formed a nation state but a small one based on race based on what has happened:
Smaller older ethnic groups have had trouble with the Swedish majority
New groups are being rejected apparently too
The Nordic nations have not done what Germany, France or UK have done and formed a larger functioning Nation from smaller states.

Sometimes things work better in smaller packages. But maybe Ethnic Swedes just aren't capable of Nation building based on your own and historical evidence.

[Kadagar_AV]

Hindered how? You are saying that your country has more immigrants in the last ten years then ever, yet your economy has grown steadily stronger over the last ten years. Your government taxes are less of a part of GDP yet your government is running a surplus.

So economically it is in a stronger position. How is that for hinderance?

If people are being left out of the social safety net and you have a surplus the problem is with the government purse strings.

"The shift from socialistic to capitalistic by and large happened because of the immigration. People don't TRUST the fellow citizens like they used to, thus they vote away the social security net. A shame, really. Sweden used to have something good going on.

Heck, even I don't vote socialistic, as I see immigrants profiting like crazy from it, whereas Ethic swedes are left out in the cold."

So you are maintaining that the majority (Swedish ethnic) who in a democray generally get to set trends and vote outcomes does not want to lossen the purse strings and that only the immigrants be benefit/profit from social welfare. Either the majority have set up a very unfair system that ends up only benefitting those who immigrate or there is something more to this picture.

From you own paragraphs you are saying that Ethnic Swedes (majority) do not trust their fellow citizens and hence the tightening of the purse strings. Yet you then also say that in this situation only the immigrants are smart enough to profit. Without living in Sweden and a dearth of facts I find it highly implausible.

But it does come across as Ethnic Swedes haven't formed a nation state but a small one based on race based on what has happened:
Smaller older ethnic groups have had trouble with the Swedish majority
New groups are being rejected apparently too
The Nordic nations have not done what Germany, France or UK have done and formed a larger functioning Nation from smaller states.

Sometimes things work better in smaller packages. But maybe Ethnic Swedes just aren't capable of Nation building based on your own and historical evidence.

Again, since you don't seem to have got it the first time around.

Sweden sold out the whole wellfare. Healthcare, education, transportation and so on. Even our pensions are now tied to the stock market instead of a "given".

What part of that didn't you get?

Yes Sweden has handled the financial crisis of the world quite well, short term. But you can only sell something ONCE. The backlash will soon come, and then we have nothing to sell.

And selling out the entire meaning of "Sweden" is not worth it, IMHO.

Heck, I struggle to see what would be worth selling out Sweden, as we used to have something really good going on. We were a role-model... Now we are a joke.

[Papewaio]

Yet we have a relatively buoyant economy, fairly good sporting prowess, relatively good health and in general good all around social indicators.
1. Ask the aborigines what they think of the immigration?

2. You basically have workers coming, and they have to prove their worth before they enter.

3. You don't accept very many people from the scum cultures of the earth.

4. You never had a wellfare thingy to protect.

5. The very idea of Australia is based on multiculturalism. Swedens idea wasn't, and it worked quite well. Now it is, and it's killing what Sweden used to be: A place where people were safe... Economically, mentally and physically.

1. The Aborogines certainly suffered more pre multicultural change. They were on the wildlife census until 1967.

2. Workers do. Extended families don't.

3. We have a huge cross section from many parts of the planet . We do have a conservative government in at the moment which is really going hard against refugees/unlawful immigrants... Depending on which shock jock one listens to.

4. Really? Free education until year 12. Low cost loan for Uni (indexed at GDP, paid off when you are earning above a certain tax threshold), universal health care, dole, family tax benefit, baby bonus ($3-5k) for having a kid.

5. Bulldust. Australia was formed from a predominately British population of several like minded colonies. With the White Australia policies steadily dismantled from post WWII to 1973 see http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy

[Kralizec]

Sweden sold out the whole wellfare. Healthcare, education, transportation and so on. Even our pensions are now tied to the stock market instead of a "given".

That doesn't mean anything. The Dutch pension system is based in roughly equal parts on a state fund (which virtually all people get, and which is rather spartan) and on a system of private funds where part of your paycheck is invested in stocks, bonds and whatnot. The latter amounts to an enormous sack of money on the global financial scene. And despite what our local doomsday-predictors say, it's a solid scheme all in all.

About the rest, I would argue that privatisation (if done right) is often a good thing. It sure as hell doesn't have anything to do with immigrants.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hindered how? You are saying that your country has more immigrants in the last ten years then ever, yet your economy has grown steadily stronger over the last ten years. Your government taxes are less of a part of GDP yet your government is running a surplus.

So economically it is in a stronger position. How is that for hinderance?

If people are being left out of the social safety net and you have a surplus the problem is with the government purse strings.

"The shift from socialistic to capitalistic by and large happened because of the immigration. People don't TRUST the fellow citizens like they used to, thus they vote away the social security net. A shame, really. Sweden used to have something good going on.

Heck, even I don't vote socialistic, as I see immigrants profiting like crazy from it, whereas Ethic swedes are left out in the cold."

So you are maintaining that the majority (Swedish ethnic) who in a democray generally get to set trends and vote outcomes does not want to lossen the purse strings and that only the immigrants be benefit/profit from social welfare. Either the majority have set up a very unfair system that ends up only benefitting those who immigrate or there is something more to this picture.

From you own paragraphs you are saying that Ethnic Swedes (majority) do not trust their fellow citizens and hence the tightening of the purse strings. Yet you then also say that in this situation only the immigrants are smart enough to profit. Without living in Sweden and a dearth of facts I find it highly implausible.

But it does come across as Ethnic Swedes haven't formed a nation state but a small one based on race based on what has happened:
Smaller older ethnic groups have had trouble with the Swedish majority
New groups are being rejected apparently too
The Nordic nations have not done what Germany, France or UK have done and formed a larger functioning Nation from smaller states.

Sometimes things work better in smaller packages. But maybe Ethnic Swedes just aren't capable of Nation building based on your own and historical evidence.

To this is say - Kadagar is entitled to grieve for the end of roughly 1,000 years of Civilisation.

Especially since this:

"The Nordic nations have not done what Germany, France or UK have done and formed a larger functioning Nation from smaller states."

is not really accurate - the difference is that they did it on a smaller scale than the UK etc. It was not an entirely easy process, the Christianising of the Sami and Finns was, in particular, painful for the people involved.

Kad is talking about a 12.5% population increase, largely due to immigration, in the course of his lifetime - Sweden's population having otherwise stabilised. That will "break" society - no social contract can survive that intact. Now, whether Sweden is going to become a hell-hole or not, I very much doubt, but Kad still has to live through this in his country.

The guy was assaulted getting off the subway a month ago by non-Swedes.

I'm gonna get laughed at for this, but screw it.

The social contract in Scandinavia works the same way a shieldwall does - everybody participates and covers the person next to them. If someone breaks, or drops their shield, or just plain can't be bother to cover the man to their left, everybody is screwed. It's built into society at a basic level, or was, and that why the "Scandinavian" model could never be exported.

[Tuuvi]

In practice however, the best that can be hoped for is a what scholars term "cultural hybridity," wherein the migrant functions in both their parent and the adoptive cultures, balancing the particulars of locale, participants, and subject/activity so as to both maintain aspects of their parent culture that provide value and a sense of identity while assimilating within the strictures of the new cultures norms and mores.

To me this seems to be what naturally happens anyway. Until a couple of months ago I used to work in a department store and we had a lot of Latino customers there. It was really easy to tell who was born in/had lived in the US for a while and who had moved here fairly recently. Mexican-Americans still maintain many aspects of Mexican culture; they speak Spanish, are mostly Catholic, etc., but they fit in better than Mexican immigrants do, because they also speak fluent English, and their dress and mannerisms are more "American".

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Explain Australia then which is a real working not just a theory of a multicultural society. Because right now your theory looks like it jus went for a run with the bulls and all it can show is a gaping gore wound and its left covered witoh bulldust.

Here is a few facts:
24% of the Australian population is born overseas to many different ethnic and cultural groups.
Another 20% have at least one parent born overseas

Yet we have a relatively buoyant economy, fairly good sporting prowess, relatively good health and in general good all around social indicators.

Which would reflect what I have described with cultural hybridity -- which is NOT segregation or separation or forced assimilation -- it simply acknowledges that people function in multiple cultures by code switching as needed and that some perfect "integration" is very unusual.

And good on you Aussies -- heaven knows that our melting pot had and has its imperfections. Sounds like Oz is doing well.

[Papewaio]

Kad is talking about a 12.5% population increase, largely due to immigration, in the course of his lifetime - Sweden's population having otherwise stabilised. That will "break" society - no social contract can survive that intact...

I'm gonna get laughed at for this, but screw it.

The social contract in Scandinavia works the same way a shieldwall does - everybody participates and covers the person next to them. If someone breaks, or drops their shield, or just plain can't be bother to cover the man to their left, everybody is screwed. It's built into society at a basic level, or was, and that why the "Scandinavian" model could never be exported.

Australia has a 1.5% population growth per annum. A demographic change that has been happening since WWII and accelerating in distribution since the Vietnam war. Our population is changing faster yet out contract is getting stronger. Australia has since the early seventies progressed from a white Australia to a multicultural country.

The reference to the shieldwall is probably apt. But it only reinforces an inability to maintain a multiracial shieldwall as an inability of culture of the locals that relies more on race then nation. Other wealthy nations have shown a capacity for a welfare state regardless of racial diversity.

[Pannonian]

Kad is talking about a 12.5% population increase, largely due to immigration, in the course of his lifetime - Sweden's population having otherwise stabilised. That will "break" society - no social contract can survive that intact. Now, whether Sweden is going to become a hell-hole or not, I very much doubt, but Kad still has to live through this in his country.

Didn't Kad say that his ancestors from not so far back came from Austria? Or is it a case of white immigrants are welcome, but brown ones aren't?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Immigration reduces a nation's homogeneity, which reduces consensus in government and makes operation of government programs more difficult. It is harder to run "common sense" programs when everyone has a different concept of what the "good life" is. This is not to say that the immigrants are wrong, but is it any wonder why Kad is mad at what he perceives to be a deteriorating government?

Quoting economics is a joke. The Dow Jones is 6,696 (what are the units of these numbers?) higher than it was on this day in 2004. You can tell me it is a bad indicator of the economy, but why does NPR and every other news organization open with it for their 30 min daily market report. I can't think of anyone who would say that things are so much better now for the average joe than in 2004.

Australia is a backwards right-wing cesspool of a democracy just like the United States. Tony Abbott wants to kill Global Warming bills and replace it with "incentives" that amount to governments bribing companies millions of public dollars to please do something noticeable but not difficult so we can look good next election. I await the next Republican president in the US to propose the same deal. You guys have a great minimum wage though, makes it easier to buy your $80-$90 video games "imported" over the internet.

Australia and the US (more or less) succeed at multiculturalism because we as citizens are all equally stomped on by an out of control free market that dictates our standard of living and bosses around our government on a whim. Europeans at one point decided after killing each other for 40 years to start looking out for each other and facilitated a goal of public dedication and unity.

At the end of the day, immigration is the lifeblood of a country when you set standards instead of letting any north african come through.

[Pannonian]

I don't think he's ever been shy about the answer to that one. :shrug:

Altogether now!

But no onions for the Austrians,
No onions for those dogs,
But no onions for the Austrians,
No onions, no onions.

Let's charge comrades,
Let's charge comrades,
Let's charge, Let's charge, Let's charge,
Let's charge comrades,
Let's charge comrades,
Let's charge, Let's charge, Let's charge.

[Papewaio]

Actually you can get games for steam cheaper via GMG.

Otherwise I agree with you we have a mad monk in charge in Aus.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Australia has a 1.5% population growth per annum. A demographic change that has been happening since WWII and accelerating in distribution since the Vietnam war. Our population is changing faster yet out contract is getting stronger. Australia has since the early seventies progressed from a white Australia to a multicultural country.

The reference to the shieldwall is probably apt. But it only reinforces an inability to maintain a multiracial shieldwall as an inability of culture of the locals that relies more on race then nation. Other wealthy nations have shown a capacity for a welfare state regardless of racial diversity.

Maintain a what now?

You join the shieldwall, the shieldwall does not join you.

A fact obvious to any Swede - I rest my case.


Didn't Kad say that his ancestors from not so far back came from Austria? Or is it a case of white immigrants are welcome, but brown ones aren't?

He's part Austrian, part Swedish, fully integrated into Swedish society - until he lost faith in it.

[Husar]

http://www.hrmguide.net/usa/guest/integrate_new_people.htm


"The greatest havoc comes when a firm is unable to integrate new people into the culture of the firm," claims Robert M. Dell, leader of the law firm Latham & Watkins. It can be disruptive to introduce new capabilities and personalities to an established and well functioning group. With each addition, the group's requirements for communication grow exponentially. The addition of even one new member requires that the entire team regroup and rebond, finding new ways of working and ultimately recreating their dynamics and working style.

It takes time and effort to integrate a new team member. Without it, the new member may (and indeed, often does) flounder, become isolated, create conflict, or worse. While some firms may try (even in this day and age) to rationalize a sink-or-swim philosophy with junior people, most firms cannot afford the internal and external impact (not to mention the costs) of people coming and going with frequency.

Private business has the solutions and the answers, as usual.
Long live capitalism and globalization!


Here are some steps to integrate new additions:

1. Manage first impressions
2. Give them support - before they ask
3. Make them feel valued
4. Provide an immersion experience.
5. Communicate, communicate, communicate.

[drone]

Or another example. :tongue3:

In our job, there is always a technical risk when you buy more than three players because you unbalance a little bit the stability of your squad. It's always difficult, when you bring so many players in, to predict how everybody will do.

[Pannonian]

He's part Austrian, part Swedish, fully integrated into Swedish society - until he lost faith in it.

Sweden could have had one fewer immigrant had his parent/whoever decided to stay put.

[Kadagar_AV]

Sweden could have had one fewer immigrant had his parent/whoever decided to stay put.

So you correctly understood how immigration works. Well done you.

That must be the most patethic and feeble attempt of personal assault I've witnessed in the backroom over my more than 10 years stay. Geez man, back to the Frontroom with you. You give the rest of us a bad rep.



To the rest: I'll answer properly when I've got the time... Just wanted to address that quickly :)

[Papewaio]

Maintain a what now?

You join the shieldwall, the shieldwall does not join you.

Not according to the anecdote:
"People don't TRUST the fellow citizens like they used to, thus they vote away the social security net"

The only people who are in the majority and have a motivation to do so who could vote successfully against the Scandinavian social security net are the ethnic Swedes. The immigrants do not have the numbers nor a very good reason if they are first generation refugees. Give them a generation and they will probably vote in tandem with the generational locals too.

Hence the ones dismantling the shieldwall is the ethnic swedes as they will not accept others. So either KAV ancedote is just that or it is the ethnic swedes to blame in their haste to reject immigrants from the social security net to save it from a perceived immigrant feeding frenzy that they are devouring the economy. The rush to the solution has had the swedes also cut off there own ethnic people and culture.

Happens all the time. How well does the Patriot Act mesh with "Truth, Justice and the American Way"? People panic, make long term decisions on small data sets and then create a solution worse then the problem.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not according to the anecdote:
"People don't TRUST the fellow citizens like they used to, thus they vote away the social security net"

The only people who are in the majority and have a motivation to do so who could vote successfully against the Scandinavian social security net are the ethnic Swedes. The immigrants do not have the numbers nor a very good reason if they are first generation refugees. Give them a generation and they will probably vote in tandem with the generational locals too.

Hence the ones dismantling the shieldwall is the ethnic swedes as they will not accept others. So either KAV ancedote is just that or it is the ethnic swedes to blame in their haste to reject immigrants from the social security net to save it from a perceived immigrant feeding frenzy that they are devouring the economy. The rush to the solution has had the swedes also cut off there own ethnic people and culture.

Happens all the time. How well does the Patriot Act mesh with "Truth, Justice and the American Way"? People panic, make long term decisions on small data sets and then create a solution worse then the problem.

OK - so extending the metaphor even further...

The shieldwall functions on mutual trust, if you sprinkle in even a relatively small number of people the majority can't/don't trust, the wall breaks. I don't think Kad is saying that ethnic Swedes are not to blame for the breakdown of the social contract in Law, what he's saying is that the huge number of immigrants destabilised society to the extent that people no longer felt the social contract was worth it.

From his previous posts - I identify two problems (from Kad's perspective.

1. He's not comfortable living around people with a radically different life-philosophy. That makes him a bit inflexible and conservative, but it's not a major character fault.

2. He feels that some of the people Sweden lets into the country are undesirable, and that this has been bad for Sweden. That's debatable - but if Swedish immigration officials are being "Swedish" they may well be letting in large numbers of people from Somalia, without checking if those people are former cafe owners forced to flee Mogadishu, or former militants.

Hell - Britain was found to have given asylum to at least one Somali Warlord after not having checked his story.

[Kagemusha]

This is a very interesting and also hard topic. It can also be emotional one, which only makes it harder.

The fact seems to be in long perspective that emigration tends to be a a good thing economically. What seems to be the problematic issue is integration of emigrants to a society and with this we seem to run into the whole ordeal of "political correctness" and "multiculturality".

These new emigrants are not the first ones in Sweden, which Kad and our other Swedish members know im sure of it. The largest group of emigrants in Sweden are Finns there are more then 400k Sweden Finns at Sweden today. After WW2 and particularly 50´s and 60´s large numbers of Finns emigrated to Sweden in hopes of better income and while it had positive effects, it also created problems.

Finnish emigrants in Sweden got nicknames like Finnjävel = Finnish devil, because among the immigrants there were social problems, higher crime rate and problems of integration as some Finnish emigrants for example had zero understanding of Swedish language. This all sounds very familiar with the current issues, but now after 50-60 years. You dont hear lot of issues concerning Sweden Finns. I would of course be interested to know what our Swedish members have to say about it.

I am myself undecided in the issue concerning emigration novadays. I have the expression and if im wrong feel free to correct me, but how i see the difference between emigration earlier and these days, is that earlier it was priority for any country to integrate the emigrants to their countries as best as they could, like for example with US and Australia, but these days we talk about multiculturalism and how emigrants should identify with the culture of their origin rather then being integrated to the culture they have emigrated. Of course the integration has never been without problems anywhere, but is the real problem these days the lack of trying with the idea of multiculturalism?

[Viking]

Finnish emigrants in Sweden got nicknames like Finnjävel = Finnish devil, because among the immigrants there were social problems, higher crime rate and problems of integration as some Finnish emigrants for example had zero understanding of Swedish language. This all sounds very familiar with the current issues, but now after 50-60 years. You dont hear lot of issues concerning Sweden Finns. I would of course be interested to know what our Swedish members have to say about it.

Swedish and Finnish cultures aren't that terribly different, are they? The language is of course a big issue, since Swedish and Finnish belong to different language families. But the Finns do not have their own clearly distinct religion, they do not build their own places of whorship etc. There is less of a reason for cultural differences to remain over time.

The more different the cultures are, the more difficulty there will be with integration, and certain differences are probably more important than others.

[Papewaio]

Women are a different culture with their places of worship such as shopping centres, their language - lots, and their propensity to impose their views on others.

But like most guys I see a silver lining in the differences. ~:smoking: