People with culture enriching UK schools...

[rvg]

I mostly blame the British government for allowing the situation to come to this (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-28349706).

[Sir Moody]

Honestly i am not sure why people are surprised - these are school in majority Islamic areas and with the Academy system the Government set up the schools are virtually independent - this was bound to happen.

Really it shows the failings of the Academy system - letting schools run themselves is great but you still need oversight - if you take your hands off the wheel you run the risk of someone else driving the car somewhere you don't want to go

[Pannonian]

Honestly i am not sure why people are surprised - these are school in majority Islamic areas and with the Academy system the Government set up the schools are virtually independent - this was bound to happen.

Really it shows the failings of the Academy system - letting schools run themselves is great but you still need oversight - if you take your hands off the wheel you run the risk of someone else driving the car somewhere you don't want to go

Same problem as the creationists. I'd have thought Americans would be all for this kind of thing though, decentralisation and all that.

[rvg]

Same problem as the creationists. I'd have thought Americans would be all for this kind of thing though, decentralisation and all that.

This American has no problem with private schools teaching this, be it islamist or creationist nonsense. The schools in question do not appear to be private.

[Beskar]

This American has no problem with private schools teaching this, be it islamist or creationist nonsense. The schools in question do not appear to be private.

They are academy schools. They are essentially 'private entities' in a hands-off management point of view. Basically, the current government introduced the system thinking independent/market forces will produce a better system, think of it as privatisation but with government subsides.

Schools are typically made up of the teaching staff, and the governors. A group of rather extremist elements tried to covertly take over the schools by getting themselves appointed and their co-conspirators as governors and expanding their control by influencing the hiring of important positions such as teachers and the head. This is a process that took a few years.

This is pretty much similar/parallel to the movements of creations in US schools, where they covertly attempt to take over them and push their agenda.

The issues with coups is that you have to be in the know to actually know they are going on. Are you going to reject muslim parents of school children who are pupils at your school from being governors because they identify themselves as Muslim? The obvious answer is 'no'. This plan ended up leaked when someone who was told/discussed this operation in private whistleblowed on it by sending an anonymous letter, and there ended up being a serious investigation and report into it. Think of it as Edward Snowden, but in the school system.

tl;dr version is that this is getting challenged and calling for greater accountability to prevent such abuse and covert operations from occurring.

[HopAlongBunny]

Privatizing might save some cash here and there, mainly capital and on-going maintenance, but you still need oversight.
So, why does it almost always seem to occur that oversight is missing or lax?

[Pannonian]

Privatizing might save some cash here and there, mainly capital and on-going maintenance, but you still need oversight.
So, why does it almost always seem to occur that oversight is missing or lax?

Because free market fundamentalism is the fundamental problem here, not Christian or Muslim fundamentalism. If free market fundies didn't get their way, Christian and Muslim fundies wouldn't get a look in. That's why I'm a believe in and supporter of the tyranny of central government in these areas. It's preferable to the alternative offered.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

They are academy schools. They are essentially 'private entities' in a hands-off management point of view. Basically, the current government introduced the system thinking independent/market forces will produce a better system, think of it as privatisation but with government subsides.

Schools are typically made up of the teaching staff, and the governors. A group of rather extremist elements tried to covertly take over the schools by getting themselves appointed and their co-conspirators as governors and expanding their control by influencing the hiring of important positions such as teachers and the head. This is a process that took a few years.

This is pretty much similar/parallel to the movements of creations in US schools, where they covertly attempt to take over them and push their agenda.

The issues with coups is that you have to be in the know to actually know they are going on. Are you going to reject muslim parents of school children who are pupils at your school from being governors because they identify themselves as Muslim? The obvious answer is 'no'. This plan ended up leaked when someone who was told/discussed this operation in private whistleblowed on it by sending an anonymous letter, and there ended up being a serious investigation and report into it. Think of it as Edward Snowden, but in the school system.

tl;dr version is that this is getting challenged and calling for greater accountability to prevent such abuse and covert operations from occurring.

While it's fashionable to blame the Academy system, and the lack of Council oversight may theoretically have been a factor, it's important to note two things straight off.

1. The snap Ofsted inspections produced radically different results from the ones conducted a year previously, when the "plot" was already embedded in many schools.

2. Not all the schools involved were academies.

From this I conclude that the major blind spot was cultural, at all levels, and that the failure to confront Muslims over their conduct as School governors was primarily the result of an unwillingness to confront Muslims.

Academies are, after all, still responsible to the Department of Education and Ofsted - just not the local Council.

Edit:

This has been admitted by the Council:

"Mr Kershaw also says Birmingham City Council was "slow to respond" to allegations in the letter and accused education chiefs in the city of "poor oversight".


He identifies a "culture within [the council] of not wanting to address difficult issues and problems with school governance" for risk of bringing accusations of racism or Islamophobia.


Speaking at a press conference earlier, Council leader Sir Albert Bore admitted the council failed to act for fear of being seen as racist or Islamophobic."

Given that the City Council admits to poor oversight - this is not simply an Academies issue - this is the Organ of local government being Craven.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Comment: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-28374058

It seems to me that the two reports actually broadly agree - it's just whether you coinsider a group of like minded individuals a "conspiracy" or not.

I don't think it really was a "conspiracy" because I don't think there was any effort to hide what was going on.

[InsaneApache]

I don't think it really was a "conspiracy" because I don't think there was any effort to hide what was going on.

There's a trend here though, isn't there? There does seem to be a lot of looking the other way where the 'Religion of Peace' is concerned.

Thirty years ago I worked at Drummond Rd. baths, next door to the school. That's when all this nonsense started.

[Fragony]

There's a trend here though, isn't there? There does seem to be a lot of looking the other way where the 'Religion of Peace' is concerned.

^

It is what it is

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There's a trend here though, isn't there? There does seem to be a lot of looking the other way where the 'Religion of Peace' is concerned.

Thirty years ago I worked at Drummond Rd. baths, next door to the school. That's when all this nonsense started.

Oh I agree, but we need to be honest about the fact that the people now causing these problems are themselves the product of a failed British School System as much as anything else. A system which probably put no effort into teaching them on the assumption they would all run takeaways or corner shops.

what is required are snap inspections - no more rubbish where headteachers can spend weeks coaching the children prior to Ofsted arriving - we used to do that assiduously at my all-white comprehensive, to cover all the lunatics who just wanted to play football.

[rory_20_uk]

Schools should be a place to ensure that all persons get the same basic values of the society they are in. 500 years ago this probably wasn't required as most people didn't go further than twns of miles in their entire lives and so cohesion was pretty good (albeit probably more localised). Now a place where children learn in England we speak English, that men and women are equal as far as two phenotypically different entities can be and where different religions is a choice not a reason to ostracise or kill and is mainly something private that should not overly impact on others with Christianity still being the main religious heritage of the land, skin colour is relevant but merely that fairer skins require more sun cream in the summer months (although all skin types can benefit).

In other words, something to try to as far as humanly possible mix everyone together.

Often the children who run takeaways and corner shops are doctors / lawyers / opthalmologists etc. In Medical training although whites are c. 90% of the UK population we were under 15% of the GP trainees.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

People with culture are just more likely to show up wearing a dress or a tent the second they get a contract, and you just can't afford the costs of lawsuits if you run your own shit without any free money. Can easily be 40 thousands if Fatima has sudden hijjaab syndrome.

[HoreTore]

The school reports are freely available on the intertubes. I assume you've all read the actual reports, right?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The school reports are freely available on the intertubes. I assume you've all read the actual reports, right?

In my defence, I last looked at the issue more than a moth ago - I don't suppose you have a link?

[HoreTore]

In my defence, I last looked at the issue more than a moth ago - I don't suppose you have a link?

Here you go. Nansen Primary school. (http://www.nansen.bham.sch.uk/images/stories/ofsted/RV5_Final1_444501.pdf)

NOTE: for those of you who have never seen such reports before, the language may be unfamiliar. Words like 'inadequate' in this context is a synonym for FIRE EVERYONE AT ONCE FOR GROSS INCOMPETENCE!!!!!!!111 My school has been through a similar evaluation by British evaluators, and the areas where terms like "needs improvement" were used are stuff we know very well are a complete mess.

There are two mentions of religion and extremism in that report:
1. The teaching of religion appear random and lacks aim and direction. Teachers are clueless as to what they are supposed to teach, there is no directions from above and thus teachers teach whatever crosses their minds.
2. The school has not implemented an anti-extremism program recommended by the British government.

....And that's it.

No fiery imams screaming death to the UK, no women in the kitchen. Just criticism for an aimless religion subject and an unimplemented government program.

There are some mentions of bullying in this school, and kids do not know how to act when bullying occurs(this is damning btw). It mentions racial bullying... Against Africans(Somali kids), not brits.

The school is definitely in a complete mess. It seems the trust had the brilliant idea that they could fire everyone, bring in temps, save a ton of money and all would be swell. Weirdly enough, it doesn't seem to be working... The school has severe staffing problems, unclear lines of communication and the report hints at possible corruption by the trust, as senior management is unable to explain details of a transfer from the school to the trust.

In short, the school has severe management issues, with an incompetent management and board. But there's no sign of this religious intolerance and indoctrination the papers are writing about....

Media hysteria 101


I read about it a month ago too btw.... The backroom has been slow on this one.

[rory_20_uk]

In the report it not as cut and dried as you make out. Yes, the school is in a complete mess - but let's look at what they are doing:

A quote from the report:

"Pupils have only a superficial knowledge and understanding of religions and beliefs other than Islam."

And as you say, if we are to translate things into OFSTEADese does this mean "OH MY GOD THEY'RE TRAINING SUICIDE BOMBERS!!!"

"Pupils’ cultural development is inadequate because the academy does not help pupils to develop an understanding of the diversity of traditions, religions and customs in modern British society. This leaves pupils at risk of cultural isolation."

Furthering ghettoisation.

"Currently, the academy has a weekly whole-school assembly, which is of an Islamic character. The governing body has not received permission from the Education Funding Agency for an exemption from providing a broadly Christian act of worship. This means that governing body fails to meet this aspect of their responsibilities."

Perhaps just a mistake as the rest of the process is pretty poor. But taken in context of everything else clearly Islam to the fore.

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

Starting with the last, I left that one out because I am unsure of how assemblies work in the UK. If it's common and/or legal to have a christian service in british schools, I see no problems switching that with an Islamic one, given that most/all the students are muslims. If it's not legal to hold christian services in assemblies, then it's a problem. That they haven't recieved permission to do it isn't something I care about. That's just red tape.

It's clear that the religion subject is in a mess. The report, however, makes it clear that this is due to a lack of planning, rather than an intended thing. If they employ a religion teacher and tell him/her nothing other than "teach religion"(which seems to be what's happened), then you will obviously get mostly the religion the teacher is familiar with, in this case Islam. To those who care about religion and culture and such other nonsense, I'm sure that's an issue for cultural understanding(damn lefties).

It's undoubtably a mess. It is not, however, a sign of a planned extremist indoctrination.

[rory_20_uk]

I'm not asking for a deep theological debate on the different religions. If you're a teacher who has completed training as a teacher and armed with either the local or national guidelines you have to choose to not do something on the others.

The report, being an audit, makes statements of fact not assessments of intent. I would be interested whether the missing paperwork exempting from Christian assemblies was one of a vast number of bits of missing paperwork (the place is a mess) or whether it was the only one (we don't want a review / oversight and they'll probably never notice).

The report does not state whether any of these things are due to lack of planning or intent - there is a lack of clear process but what is not is whether if there were everything would have been sorted out - as after all the persons at the top of the school employed the teachers.

I agree that it is not of itself a "smoking gun" one way or the other. It is evidence that oversight was appalling and that such attempts at "pure" democracy don't work - if enough locals want to send their children to a school with a very strong / exclusive Islam focus the school will continue at the taxpayer's expense - nothing will nudge it back to the mainstream. It might even continue if it were to drop use of English as the first language.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

Sounds reasonable untill you are the one being isolated, I partly agree with you but there is no room for relativations when it comes to exclusion. These are public schools, feel free to open an islamic school, I don't care.

You only have as much freedom as you grant others.

[Husar]

Herp derp, if you want Christian education only, should it be catholic or lutheran or maybe calvinistic or russian orthodox?

My schools had relatively simple solutions, up to grade ten there was catholic and protestant religion depending on preference, violent atheists, muslims and others could not opt out entirely but opt out to do something else instead, like an extra class of biology or so. Later on they also offered a philosophy course and I assume they would also offer islamic religion courses if there were enough people who wanted one and an available teacher to teach it. Languages were treated in a similar manner, there were some on offer but e.g. Russian was not taught because only three people signed up for it.

I don't see why it has to be a national debate or why an entire school has to cater to either side exclusively.

[Fragony]

I don't see why it has to be a national debate or why an entire school has to cater to either side exclusively.

I do. It's basicly a coup what is being described. Islamisation being an active practise. It's not nothing that non-muslims are being worked out in a public school. It's predatory behaviour. If you happen to live in a neighbourbood, would you want a public school to be neutral or not. Overstepping, I can absolutily understand why people don't want this. In more fashionable terms, screw this.

[Husar]

I do. It's basicly a coup what is being described. Islamisation being an active practise. It's not nothing that non-muslims are being worked out in a public school. It's predatory behaviour. If you happen to live in a neighbourbood, would you want a public school to be neutral or not. Overstepping, I can absolutily understand why people don't want this. In more fashionable terms, screw this.

No you don't. I said I do not see why it has to cater to either side exclusively, obviously that includes the muslim side.
I've heard of schools here where the children threaten the teachers and that is just as wrong.
Some of it might just come from the fact that we dump immigrants in ghettos where they will then show up in concentrated form and have little need or chance of integration, at least here that actually does seem to be the governments' fault because they decide where the newcomers get to live at first. And then they can just happily dwell in the violent ways of the countries they came from while forming an in-group that feels opposed by the locals who are outside. And then we act surprised that they aren't fond of us after we always stoop up when they tried to take a seat next to us.

But hey, they are all evil, have you ever looked into the evil red eyes of a 14 year-old hijab-wearing monster? I say we send them all back to where the government wants to kill them.

[rory_20_uk]

Dumped in ghettos? Our society doesn't allow to prevent people living where they want - and often people do congregate together where they share cultures and languages. In fact, there have been problems when attempts to disperse groups further afield have been undertaken.

Historically itdidn't really matter as the number of immigrants with a very different culture who had no interest in integrating was pretty low. And yes, being the same race helps as then all that is "different" is one's surname.

And in the UK we had a large influx from the Carribbean. The difficulties there were good old fashioned racism and now that this has been (mainly) confined to the dustbin there are not that many problems as the cultures were pretty close, as was the language etc.

Now we oh so love our multi-ethnic communities - we need to get "community leaders" involved in things. This further delineates people into groups on almost tribal (culture / religion / ethnicity - it probably varies) affiliations- I thought our community leaders were the MPs who represent everyone in an area!

So, getting to people to speak English is not acceptable, as is a view their religion, choice of clothing, arranged marriages, unofficial courts... there are calls for doing something about female genital mutilation - but what exactly? The right to privicy and the right to a family life mean that one is powerless until after the fact (as we can't be racially profiling, right?)

A free society and policing by consent is all well and good - and preferable - but it does require that the society being policed and governed is relatively homogenous culturally.

If one is seeking asylum one is supposed to seek it in the first country that one comes to that is safe. Now, unless France is worse than even I think it is all those "asylum seekers" waiting to smuggle into the UK are "economic migrants".

The bad, bad, BAD days where Europeans owned other countries is thankfully over, and all are free to indulge in levels of corruption, ethnic cleansing and religious pogoms that would even make Leopold II say "whoah - steady on!" But we shoud not treat them like children, nor inflict a narrow minded interpretation of Western ethics upon them. Trade with them - fine. But as they so chose, their own affairs are their own.

The best example of this is Germany. Few countries are blaming Germany for not getting involved in this war or that war at massive expense - yet the UK is blamed when it does and blamed when it doesn't.

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

I'm not asking for a deep theological debate on the different religions. If you're a teacher who has completed training as a teacher and armed with either the local or national guidelines you have to choose to not do something on the others.

They didn't have either local or national guidelines, and it's doubtful they had completed their training. That's the problem.


I would be interested whether the missing paperwork exempting from Christian assemblies was one of a vast number of bits of missing paperwork (the place is a mess) or whether it was the only one (we don't want a review / oversight and they'll probably never notice).

The report mentions other missing documentation. For example, the missing details of the transfer of money from the school to the trust.


The report does not state whether any of these things are due to lack of planning or intent - there is a lack of clear process but what is not is whether if there were everything would have been sorted out - as after all the persons at the top of the school employed the teachers.

The image of the school is pretty clear - it's a mess on just about every level. Why should we believe they are capable of advanced planning when it comes to muslim indoctrination when they have failed at all others types of planning?



I agree that it is not of itself a "smoking gun" one way or the other. It is evidence that oversight was appalling and that such attempts at "pure" democracy don't work - if enough locals want to send their children to a school with a very strong / exclusive Islam focus the school will continue at the taxpayer's expense - nothing will nudge it back to the mainstream. It might even continue if it were to drop use of English as the first language.

Agreed.

[HoreTore]

I do. It's basicly a coup what is being described. Islamisation being an active practise.

Could you point to where in the report it describes an active islamisation of the school?

[HoreTore]

Dumped in ghettos? Our society doesn't allow to prevent people living where they want - and often people do congregate together where they share cultures and languages. In fact, there have been problems when attempts to disperse groups further afield have been undertaken.

So, a newly arrived immigrant is free to live in a 'white' neighborhood on the west side...?

Money determines where you live. Not your culture.


Historically itdidn't really matter as the number of immigrants with a very different culture who had no interest in integrating was pretty low. And yes, being the same race helps as then all that is "different" is one's surname.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/BritishBrothersLeaguePoster(1902).jpg

[Fragony]

Could you point to where in the report it describes an active islamisation of the school?

No, but can you rule out any intention

[rory_20_uk]

Money always determines where one lives - the point is it's not a government plot and that rich people of any and all ethnicity live wherever they like - e.g. the Chinese buying up large amounts of property in Manhatten. The problem is when those in the area don't want to integrate - they want the economic benefits of the state, but otherwise the culture of where they left.

Interesting that on the poster it is the fact they are poor that is the problem, not that they are foreigners. We've imported everything - including our royal family. I imagine that this lot also loathed the unwashed masses just as much.

No one has ever liked "foreigners" coming over here (wherever "here" is) taking our land / jobs / women / benefits / pubs (one can always find something) but the furore dies down when you can't spot "them" - it takes a lot of stamina to hate a group that to all intents and purposes are the same as your own - they have integrated. The more differences one chooses to have the more resentment one will have, probably at one extreme being merely the accent to the other being culture, religion, language and the desire to keep all of these things.

~:smoking:

[HoreTore]

No, but can you rule out any intention

There is no evidence to back up any intention.


Money always determines where one lives - the point is it's not a government plot

It's definitely not a government plot - but it is government policy. Not the part about keeping immigrants together, but that about keeping housing prices high. Someone living in a nice area wants their housing price rising, which means they will oppose any measure likely to reduce the price of their home(like public housing or other social welfare stuff). These things will then be concentrated in certain areas, and the housing prices of those areas will be much, much lower than other places. Newly arrived immigrants lacking in funds will move there.

It's not government policy to create ghettos, but the sum of other government policies and the desires of the population will create ghettos, even if nobody really wants ghettos. An example of the tragedy of the commons. It is possible to avoid ghetto formation(or rather, areas with very low housing prices) and create a city where the housing price is more equal across the entire city. This means you have to convince the wealthy to accept services in their neighborhood likely to drive prices down, and that's a tough ask.

[rory_20_uk]

To support the UK economy we need to have the latest bubble since we don't make enough real things we need to create fake money.

I'd go further than "tough job" to "impossible" - those with loads of money will flit off elsewhere, those that remain will never forgive the system that "took" all that money out of their house price.

I think that there are things that can be done to at least reduce the rate of house price inflation and reduce house prices and that would be to simply replace council tax bands with a flat percentage of the worth of the property - oh, I'm sure that there are those able to pay tens of thousands of pounds annually to live somewhere but most can't.

But again - how does one impliment that? Suddenly making almost everyone in negative equity at the stroke of a pen. With something like a 10 year notice period and then a very slow increase perhaps it might work. Might loose a lot of votes as well of course.

~:smoking:

[Fragony]

There is no evidence to back up any intention.

If there would be it would be left out of the rapport because it's England. Same happened with the massive rape case were people with culture were involved. No less than 1300 victims but social harmony was too important.

Social harmony, big lol

[HoreTore]

If there would be it would be left out of the rapport because it's England. Same happened with the massive rape case were people with culture were involved. No less than 1300 victims but social harmony was too important.

Social harmony, big lol

Come back when you have some actual evidence. You can't just point at some random school and say 'this is happening' without having any sort of evidence suggesting it is so.

Further, the suggestion that these things will be hidden is ridicolous. The premise of the media coverage is the exact opposite, where they are exaggerating the issue and building a story of supposed islamisation(the exact thing you claim would be hidden).

Paranoia.

[Fragony]

Come back when you have some actual evidence. You can't just point at some random school and say 'this is happening' without having any sort of evidence suggesting it is so.

Further, the suggestion that these things will be hidden is ridicolous. The premise of the media coverage is the exact opposite, where they are exaggerating the issue and building a story of supposed islamisation(the exact thing you claim would be hidden).

Paranoia.

It's always defendable and you can always relativate it, taking in small peaces it's always an uphill battle for islamrealists. But in the meantime there are erea's all over Europe that you can call nothing other than islamised. This just one of the many examples.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Starting with the last, I left that one out because I am unsure of how assemblies work in the UK. If it's common and/or legal to have a christian service in british schools, I see no problems switching that with an Islamic one, given that most/all the students are muslims. If it's not legal to hold christian services in assemblies, then it's a problem. That they haven't recieved permission to do it isn't something I care about. That's just red tape.

After the War, when the government took over thr running and funding of schools from the Church they enshrined in law the requirement for a Christian act of worship once a week. It's an archaic law now, but the fact is that you have to apply for the exemption or you're breaking the law.


It's clear that the religion subject is in a mess. The report, however, makes it clear that this is due to a lack of planning, rather than an intended thing. If they employ a religion teacher and tell him/her nothing other than "teach religion"(which seems to be what's happened), then you will obviously get mostly the religion the teacher is familiar with, in this case Islam. To those who care about religion and culture and such other nonsense, I'm sure that's an issue for cultural understanding(damn lefties).

It's undoubtably a mess. It is not, however, a sign of a planned extremist indoctrination.

It's actually quite difficult NOT to teach about other religions, a brief perusal of the National Curriculum will tell you what needs to be taught and why. Failure to do so is cross incompetence or corruption.

Note that I saw an interview with some children in an affiliated senior school. They were told they couldn't have boyfriends/girlfriends "because it was against Islam". At that point another boy (not being interviewed) piped up and said "yeah, but it's not an Islamic School, it's a Secular State School."

His parents are obviously switched on.

[HoreTore]

Failure to do so is cross incompetence.

Unquestionable, to me that's what the report highlights.

When you hire temps for a few weeks at a time and tell them to go teach religion with no instruction at all, that's pretty much what you get.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Do you really need to have communities to start voting for sharia law before you realize that proper immigration is more than just a background check to prevent suicide bombers?

[Fragony]

Do you really need to have communities to start voting for sharia law before you realize that proper immigration is more than just a background check to prevent suicide bombers?

Violent islam is pretty much non-existant. Let me put it this way; if you leave your country and want to take it with you anyway, than you are not an immigrant but a colonist. Immigrants from muslim countries are welcome, I have nothing against them. But I don't give a bloody-sucked fuck about their traditions and sensibilities. Get the fuck back if it makes it so hard. Piss off. Go love your sheep and herd your wives. Go away.

[Montmorency]

Some on the right - including Fragony - have suggested that the problem is fundamentally with Islam, while Muslim people are basically OK.

It's actually the exact opposite.

Well, not quite. Muslim people aren't all that bad. It's just that they're by culture very conservative by our standards.

But importantly, Islam is nothing. Extreme expressions of Islam are the result of conservative culture squared. Islam in itself is just a name for certain sets of customs, which are indeed quite flexible, as history and experience with other religions demonstrates.

Islam is no exceptional bogeyman that taints everything associated with it, as the 'phobes have it. Keep the Islam, and use it as a tool in bringing Muslim immigrants around to an explicitly social-leftist orientation.

The real problem is the local Christian right, which would hinder this program and beyond that foster unneeded mutual animosity so they can have their next holy war.

[Husar]

If you want flexibility, go ahead as an example and convert to Islam.

Of course if people come here and then complain about our entire culture and country that is pretty strange, on the other hand many of us only greet them with hostility and distance so it's not all that surprising that our culture doesn't always seem inviting or positive to immigrants. Basically the DDR was a better place in that respect, they welcomed the Chilean communists with open arms back when they had to flee because of the coup. Nowadays these Chileans are mostly well-integrated AFAIK.

[Fragony]

If you want flexibility, go ahead as an example and convert to Islam.

Of course if people come here and then complain about our entire culture and country that is pretty strange, on the other hand many of us only greet them with hostility and distance so it's not all that surprising that our culture doesn't always seem inviting or positive to immigrants. Basically the DDR was a better place in that respect, they welcomed the Chilean communists with open arms back when they had to flee because of the coup. Nowadays these Chileans are mostly well-integrated AFAIK.


Some on the right - including Fragony - have suggested that the problem is fundamentally with Islam, while Muslim people are basically OK.

It's actually the exact opposite.

Well, not quite. Muslim people aren't all that bad. It's just that they're by culture very conservative by our standards.

But importantly, Islam is nothing. Extreme expressions of Islam are the result of conservative culture squared. Islam in itself is just a name for certain sets of customs, which are indeed quite flexible, as history and experience with other religions demonstrates.

Islam is no exceptional bogeyman that taints everything associated with it, as the 'phobes have it. Keep the Islam, and use it as a tool in bringing Muslim immigrants around to an explicitly social-leftist orientation.

The real problem is the local Christian right, which would hinder this program and beyond that foster unneeded mutual animosity so they can have their next holy war.

Don't associate me with the right I don't want to have anything to do with them. It's just as so long as pragmatism and common sense exists the multiculteral left is in it's way. Before you get the wrong idea, I have nothing against muslims and immigrants in general. Welcome np. It's the multicultrural left that is dangerous, they will never change their mind.

[Kadagar_AV]

People with culture enrich the Swedish schools too.

To finish high school or get a gymnasium diploma, you need a G (lowest grade) in at least:
* English.
* Mathematics
* Swedish OR Swedish as second language.

As you see, the bar isn't set very high. Like at all, heck, they don't even need to understand Swedish on any higher level.

Yet, new figures are absolutely scary. Africans stand out negatively.


EDIT: in Sweden, high school are for youths 13-15, and gymnasium for people 16-18.

Don't get me started on the lack of Africans at university, or how completely bad the few getting in are doing.
* 35% of people born in other countries don't finish high school.

* More than 50% of those born in Afrika don't finish high school.

* Even Africans that have lived in Sweden for more than 10 years, have 26% who don't qualify for gymnasium

* Africans who are have lived here 4 years or less have 76% not qualified for gymnasium.


Our declining results internationally can thus, partly, be directly blamed on a massive amount of African immigration.

Also, we are creating a new working class, that don't even qualify for the most basic jobs, as high school education is the very minimum required for pretty much any job, cleaning jobs aside.

[Fragony]

Kinda funny, gymnasition is the highest level here. Puts some articles in perspective.

[Kadagar_AV]

Kinda funny, gymnasition is the highest level here. Puts some articles in perspective.

I don't quite get what you mean, could you elaborate?

[Fragony]

I don't quite get what you mean, could you elaborate?

In the Netherlands the gymnasium is a free pass to university really, we have various levels

Vmbo a/b/c/d <- not for the brightest
Havo, somewhat in the middle
VWO/Ahteneum, same level Gymasium except for not gettin Latin and Greek.
Gymnasium, VWO level emmidiatly, no selection first year