View Full Version : Cavalry Post Patch in SP
Hosakawa Tito
11-11-2002, 01:27
So what are your opinions on the cav changes in SP?
Playing as the Danes in my current campaign, I was shocked on how easily the Russian Steppe cav and Boyars could chew up my feudal sgt.s and spearmen. I mean these are light cav units and they are much more powerful now than the pre-patch version. I like the change, but it definitely takes some getting used to the needed change in tactics. I found out the hard way that you need some cav yourself. The Mongol Horde is going to be much more challenging now. I can't wait to face them.
This was the subject of a long post where SP players made strong arguments for cav being able to beat regular spearmen in frontal assault and do better against all spear infantry by disrupting the formation. That's precisely the change that was made. It was done, as I understand, by making spearmen more likely to be pushed back. When a pushback occurs, the cav gets a +6 (3 times the chance to kill) added to it's attack value on the next combat cycle, and the spearman falls back a substantial distance. Spearmen now loose and Feudal Sgt's are a toss up as to who will win against mounted knights. I find Chiv Sgt's and Order Foot still win.
Now this would be fine for MP except the spears are more expensive, valor upgrades are more expensive and mounted knights are less expensive. A v2 Order Foot costs a little less than a v0 mounted knight in v1.0. However in v1.1, a v1 Order Foot costs a little more than a v0 mounted knight. So in MP, the Order Foot essentially lost 2 combat points, lost 2 morale points and suffers the pushback. The Order Foot would still beat the mounted knight if it would stand and fight, but it routs due to increased casualties which lowers an already lowered morale due to the increase in cost of valor upgrade.
I don't see any alternative now except to play MP games at 15K to 20K florins. All non-knight infantry units will stand and fight longer with the valor upgrades that you can afford at the higher florins. Unfortunatly, playing with morale off adds +12 morale to all units which basically removes morale as a consideration in battle. It would have been nice if the boost had been made a more modest +6 which would them allow playing at lower florins.
solypsist
11-11-2002, 05:52
My experience is that the light cav seems more fragile, about up to STW form (remember those horse archers? they were born with a white flag attached to their hands) and the other cavs seem more aligned to each other. My Almohad militia eat cav for breakfast, so no word, by me, on how Europ spearmen will far against horses.
in v1 i lived by the fudal seargent, in v2 this is no more.
v2 has completely changed the tactical situation. the disturbing part is that nothing less than pikes can be trusted to hold the line in a cav rush(i like to keep MAA's on the sides for the purpose of CYA).
tell me puzz, is all foot effected by the push back? perhaps MAA's are the new front line for early and high.
the golden horde routed my 1500 assorted feudal seargents, MAA's and longbows with only 4 units of heavy, some horse archers and some steppe cav. my first group lasted less than a minute in the inital charge, my second round never had a chance to form ranks. i just got a bunch of billmen ready to try out on the savages http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Postino,
Cav always pushes back any infantry man who is not facing him with spear, pike or polearm. I'm afraid swords are not going to do very well as a front line against cav. I've been doing ok in SP campaign battles on normal difficulty, but it is harder to win those battles in v1.1. I don't know what expert is like now, but it must be very difficult. More than ever you need good generals in battle. My Feudal Sgt's will usually hold, but they take heavy losses. You need that good general to help them hold on and keep fighting, and you need a steady flow of replacements to rebuild the army.
I think one of the problems many in SP are experiencing is they are no longer getting the bugges V2 on their feudal sergeants. That makes a very noticable difference (at least it has to me). Where before the patch you could use them to hold a spear wall against practically anything, after the patch it's a little bit more dicey.
Magnum
war_blah
11-11-2002, 10:58
My first battle against the Post patch golden horde. I rallied 3500 troops and wait till 1230 for golden horde to show up, then they attack me with 13000 troops(90% heavy cavarly + horse archer, 10% mongol warrior). I failed twice because they just keep swarm me with heavy cavarly and their reinforcement seems nonstop.(also i have to fight them on plain ground) But on the third try i finally got them :P
Screenshot (http://www.msu.edu/user/yuxinyua/Mongols.JPG)
I'm a firm favourite of the post patch cavalry in SP now. Basically, like many have said the game plays very differently now and the old strategies in v1.0 will not work for v1.1.
While general spear units like the spearman and feudal sergeants will contain the cav for longer than othe non-spear units, they will probably lose-out due to poorer morale. The way the SP is setup now means that one usually faces the appropriate spears with the period-matched cav (e.g. feudal sergeants v feudal knights) and this seems to work well. This is the problem i think many are experiencing with MP, in that more often people will be facing off mismatched units, i.e. feudal sergeants v chivalric knights, and the chivalric counterparts are quite a bit tougher than their feudal versions.
The one thing i have gathered about SP since the patch is that i always want a few units of cavalry ina ll my armies. If i'm facing an AI army containing cavalry without any cavalry myself, i know i'm in bother. This i like very much http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif In the middle ages the knights were feared and this is represented in the gameplay very satisfactorily. Simply put, to be without is folly. I particularly like the fact that the enemy Kings and their heirs are now very scary. I had an army of 100 feudals and 60 urban militia routed by an enemy King's very elite, high valour Royal knights and some mounted crossbows.
So my tactics now are to face cavalry with cavalry or face cavalry with spears and make sure i have some backup to relieve the spears. Don't just assume that spears are enough themselves anymore unless they are matched period-wise or even better a period more advanced.
Pellinor
11-11-2002, 12:19
Pre-patch I played HRE, and spears made up the core of my army and trounced all comers. Cavalry only ever followed up routs, and shock troops did nothing.
Post patch I'm playing the Turks, and using almost nothing but light cavalry. This is partly role-playing, but mostly I have nothing that can stand up to the Byzantine infantry so I try to avoid them.
I have noticed that my spears crumple before Kataphracts, and the enemy spears seem a lot less frightening. In a recent battle 22 cavalrymen (6 Ghulams, 3 horse archers, 13 Turcomans - the remains of a defeated army) wiped out the whole of an enemy force of 100 spears and 120 Trebizond archers. Only 4 archers escaped, and I lost no men at all. Some of this was probably due to peppering the enemy with arrows, but charges in wedge seemed to shatter the enemy formation, even apparently-steady spears.
Of course I am leaving out the effect of my superb tactics and troop-handling :-p, but I'm starting to rate spearmen only marginally above peasants, where pre-patch I would try to shoot them down or neautralise them with my own spears.
It just struck me that the Byzantines are in for a bad beating in Late... No good spears, no pikes (unless they have taken Switzerland) and no up to date cavalry and of course no halbard infantry...
Prodigal
11-11-2002, 15:23
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 11 2002,08:09)]It just struck me that the Byzantines are in for a bad beating in Late...
I found this pre-patch, everything went great until the lates, & without the armenian hc they started getting outclassed, 'specially as there are spear units that can overwhelm the byzant inf.
I have to admit that I've been having a lot of fun with cav. Hobilars saved me against the frogs, & as Turkey, they checked the GH. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Maelstrom
11-11-2002, 15:35
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 11 2002,08:09)]It just struck me that the Byzantines are in for a bad beating in Late...
...which just goes to show what a good job CA did of modelling history.
All praise to the Dev's
- I'll just have to try and finish my Byzantine campaign before the Late period.
Fearless
11-11-2002, 15:39
Without a doubt the mounted units are the tanks in battle as they should have been from the beginning. I now scan the horizon line for enemy cavalary wheras before they never bothered me................................AWSOME
Prodigal
11-11-2002, 15:40
Quote[/b] (Maelstrom @ Nov. 11 2002,08:35)]...which just goes to show what a good job CA did of modelling history.
Good point, hadn't thought of it that way before. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
war_blah That is damn impressive :o
I like the new cavalry.
I noticed that vanilla Spearmen were not that good when pressed prepatch and just didn't use them as far as I was able to avoid it.
Now they are quite weak.
Certainly Chiv Sergeants are vastly preferable but no longer the impregnable wall they were pre-patch.
And you can actually charge with cavalry now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Instead of having to wait till the enemy routed then just using them to clean up afterwards.
That all said, it is possible they went 1 point too far and made cav just that little bit too powerful...
I think cavalry is just right in SP now. Before the patch, it was too easy to shrug off knights attacking frontally with even vanilla spearman. The historical accuracy of this was endlessly debated and I am not sure where the balance of argument lay. As a gameplay issue, it made things rather dull - spearmen were all you needed; heavy cavalry an unnecessary indulgence. After the patch, knights vs spearmen will be a close run thing - close to mutually assured destruction. This feels right - it is still inefficient for cavalry to make such frontal assaults, but if they do, they are dangerous. It gives you a frisson of fear seeing massed AI heavy cavalry approach. Plus it means that I want to build up the tech tree to get a nice big 40 strength unit of my own (still an indulgence but a more attractive one).
I should add - it is not just the greater "pushing back" effect of cav that has been tweaked in the patch; I am noticing the "more dynamic use" of cavalry - they don't stay stalled and gradually wither on the vine anymore, but break off and come back for more (thanks to their morale).
On the defensive, I find I can still hold off heavy cav with feudal sergeants if backed by bows + catapults, provided I hold the continuous line (even before the patch AI cav was good at hitting you in the flank with even a slight gap and misalignment in the lines). And it is probably the backup missile troops that do more damage to cav now than my spears. However, I remember one depleted unit of FSs making their way back to the main line after a pursuit and being caught by a unit of camels. Even after turning to face the enemy charge, they still broke which felt just right.
Yeah, I have to say I think post-patch:
1) Battles are much harder. I've seen the AI break off an ineffective charge, reform, and charge again. The AI also doesn't seem to attack as piecemeal as before either.
2) And yes, cav is back. Not totally overwhelming, but they can hurt and break plain vanilla infantry. Spears and feudal sarges just won't get it.
3) Seems like you are best going with a cav heavy force early, then switching to more infantry and halberdiers and chiv sargeants come available.
Yes Byzant units are weak later on, but they still have bang up generals which can give significant valor boosts which can help compensate for weaker units. How do Varangians hold up against cav now? I knew pre-patch a group could hold off Mongol heavy cav pretty well.
Grifman
Fearless
11-11-2002, 16:37
Just a small point on charging horses. I saw a video on real life TV of 4 shire horses that were spooked on a parade and charged down the main road. What didn't get out of there way was basically flattened. To see such large horses going at full pelt was AWESOME..........and that was only 4 of them imagine a couple of hundred..........the ground must have shook like an earthquake..............no wonder most spearmen wore brown breeches.........................AWESOME
Well the point is that in SP the game is not as sensitive to changes as in MP. If the cav was made slightly weaker it would hardly be noticed in SP while MP would be changed drastically.
I certainly like that heavy cav can defeat vanilla spears head on, that is actually what I have been asking for more or less.
Now the Byz will have to use combined arms to defeat cav.
Either Spears holding the cav and flanking with Varangians (the AP is important here), or spears holding while the cav is peppered with arrows.
The Byz needs to expand very fast to get a large base income so they can have larger armies, cause they are going to need large armies against the later knights...
And yes there is made another change, Gil posted on this some time ago. Heavy cav will charge in and if that didn't do the job they will break off and try again, just like in history.
Kraxis,
My point is that the adjustments to unit mechanics affect SP and MP, and the MP is additionally affected by the unit cost and upgrade cost adjustments. So, overall there has been a huge change made to spear/cav balance in MP.
There certainly is...
My guess is that we will see more cav rushers and that the counter will be an increase in the usage of Camels and halbardinfantry as well as AP (but halbards have that already).
I am playing SP on hard in a new English campaign. I am not having that much difficulty against cavalry.
I just cornered the Byzantine emporer in Sicily around 1190 or so. I have never seen so much Kataprhactoi cavalry in my life. The King had 7 companies of 66 men Katapractoi which is huge number. He also had 330 Brabancon Mercenary Long Spearmen, 330 peasants and 190 archers. It was a good, strong cavalry heavy army. I had one 20 man Royal Knight, one 23 man Fuedal knights, about 100 hobilars, 330 peasants, 340 Italian Infantry, 130 Lombard Pikes, 250 Order foot soldiers, 220 Spearmen, 60 Feudal Sergeants and 170 archers.So I have approximately 40 heavy cavalry, 100 light cav, 1000 spearmen types and 170 archers vs 460 heavy cav, 340 spearmen types and 190 archers-total numbers 1300 vs 900 while ignoring the peasants.
It was one tough battle primarily because of the mobility of the Katapractoi. Constantly charging, then pulling back and recharging. They kept hitting my flanks over and over. But I actually only had one unit break-the Lombard pikes. It was worn down to nothing by both cavalry and infantry attacks and finally broke. I was using my cavalry on the flanks hitting their cavalry when engaged with my infantry. Very tough battle but the spears did ultimately win.
Spears can still hold against very heavy cavalry if I use hold and I don't move them. They seem to really get chopped up when caught on the move. I no longer charge my spears againt cavalry unless the battle is already over or maybe if I can catch a flank.
I just make sure the spears are still, set and braced. They hold nicely.
HJM168359
11-13-2002, 01:30
Just want opinions
Orda Khan
11-13-2002, 01:37
As you can use them in campaign, I would say Mongol Heavy Cavalry
...Orda
solypsist
11-13-2002, 02:36
joined with cav poll
MizuKokami
11-15-2002, 07:49
it's all well to do, that cav now does a much finer job then it ever has, but i wonder about the ai economy. cav is expensive to buy, expensive to maintain. and i, playing the polish, or any other faction i might play, struggle to get an economy going, wether lone support cav heavy armies, which is about all i face against the ai. inspite of the large amounts of cav the ai seems to have at all times, they still manage to build their provinces up to glorious porportions. does the ai go broke ever? how does one manage to support such large militaries, and still build provinces up. i know that if i lost a province, and my people then rebelled, giving me more troops, i would go broke trying to support them, and my growth would be stunted. someone please help
...............sincerely,
.................starving in poland
Orda Khan
11-15-2002, 13:35
Guys these two threads in one are confusing. I have noticed a big improvement in Boyars and Steppe Cav. I havent started a campaign post patch but the Horde don't look much different in historical campaign. I thought they seemed slower but it must have been my eyes. Either that or they were just blase about seeing to the Russians.
I for one am glad to see that cav has been given the strength they deserve.
Now if only we could make armour less effective we would be historically more accurate
......Orda
ShadeWraith
11-15-2002, 13:55
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Nov. 11 2002,10:58)]There certainly is...
My guess is that we will see more cav rushers and that the counter will be an increase in the usage of Camels and halbardinfantry as well as AP (but halbards have that already).
The problem in MP is that Camels and Halbs at base valour have extremely poor morale..this turns the game into a rout fest. Camels can be upgraded cheaply, but to use them you have to play as a muslim faction in desert or arid terrain as camels get a penalty for fighting in lush terrain. Halbs are just too expensive to ugrade their valour to stop them running. The best anti-cav units I have found so far are...cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Wraith
Wraith, I didn't meant Halbardiers alone, but infantry with halbards, such as Billmen and Swiss Halbardiers besides the normal Halbardiers. Even Chivalric Foot Knights have shown themselves to be great in my battles, am I correct to asume they are worth it in MP?
Camels and desert...
Well... Camels fighting horses gets these bonusses 2 attack and 4 defence, if the battle is in desert they get another 1 on each, making even Berbers quite good melee troops against cav (though costly).
But I have not found the penalty of fighting in Lush or Temperate, but I guess it is -1 to each. So Beduins are still worth it.
Katasaki Hirojima
11-18-2002, 06:56
In my tests in Custom battle SPearman on flat ground can still beat Feudal Knights and maybe even Chivalric Knights. I don't see the "pushback" t all. It says Version 1.1 in the game screen. I really haven't seen a tremendous change at all..
Try that with Armenian Heavy Cav. Even feudal sargents get slammed backwards and sometimes break when it is 40 cav against 100 spears. Mongol heavy cav are just as bad.
I am having a heck of a time with the Egyptians and all their heavy cav since the patch. If I don't flank, I die.
This has made my games much more challenging, and that is a good thing.
Katasaki Hirojim,
In custom battle, put your Chiv Knights in a double line 20x2 (width x depth) and charge at the AI's spearmen. Watch the spearmen closely. You'll see individual pushbacks on some of the spearmen on some of the combat cycles. It's not enough to make the rear spearman move back, but you'll see a stack of spearmen compress when the front guy gets pushed back.
I tested v0 Chiv Knight general against v0 Spearman general. Possibly the spearmen can win once in a while, but it looks to me like they will usually loose that matchup. In that test both units get a +2 morale because they are the general's unit. That +2 morale increase helps the spearmen more than it helps the Chiv Knights who would fight to almost the last man anyway. If you put the Chiv Knights in wedge formation, they will not do as well, and may well loose in this test.
Hakonarson
11-18-2002, 22:09
Some light cavalry seesm to have benefited quite a lot too
Last night I had 9 AI Saharan cav defeat 100 (2 x 50, both v2) halberdiers for the loss of 3 cav. The Cav were uphill, but otherwise it was a straight fight.
The first 50 halberds went in front on and instantly began losing badly. the 2nd 50 went past the Cv flank and charged obliquely in the rear.
Both units lost 15-16 men before breaking, both were always losing right from the first combat.
Mind you that might just be Halberds because right next to them a 3rd unit got monstered by Pavise Aerbalesters in h-h combat - the Arbalesters weer uphill to, and they had little trouble with the halberds http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Similarly in 2 seperate battles the AI's mounted X-bows have performed some amazing feats. I had 40 of them take on 90 Feudal Sergeants and be winning for the whole battle until.....
Then I charged more feudal sergeants into their REAR - not obliquely but parallel to their front. Still winning - the original sergeants had been pushed back on one flank so I sent in a third unit of sergeant into hte gap - the fight was now in a triangle.
It took several minutes to wipe the little b@stards out, adn several times my original sergeants ahd teh rout flag flashing....
In a 2nd battle another unit of mounted X-bowmen attacked feudal sergeants and weer hit in the flank with vikings - again they fought on until their general was killed and they broke, inflicting raehr considerable casualties IIRC.
In that last battle I also had the misfortune of having 31 Hobilars destroy 64 Mtd Sergeants in a straight up fight.
the Sgts were in units of 37 and 33 (6 survived!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, one unit took the Hobilars in het front (this time I was uphill!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, the 2nd took them in the flank The flanking unit was routed first, with 12 men leaving the field in terror, the frontal unit had 6 men survive http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
So some things are most certainly different
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