Siege weapons and morale

[Vinsitor]

How siege weapons modify army's morale?
Can someone explain how does it works?

[Cardinal]

I think it referres to standing you ground while being pounded by big rocks. Not the thing which induces high spirits.
Tip: Pound your enemy generals unit with siege weapon projectiles. You might just kill him and route his entire army.

[chunkynut]

Many people, including myself, have had the lucky first shot from the catapult at the gens unit and the buggers down but i dont know about post patch cats. Any takers?

[monkian]

I've done it 3 times with the same siege unit before the patch.

I'll miss ol' General Killer my trusty catapult http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Dionysus9]

To try to answer yoru question:

Units under fire from different types of ranged units take a morale penalty based on the type of ranged fire they are taking. Taking casualties from gunfire hurts morale slightly more than taking casualties from arrows (I believe).

It is unclear exactly how much of a morale penalty units incur from ranged fire in MTW, but it is clear that they take a penalty and that the penalty is in addition to the other numerous morale penalties.

So when you lose a man to siege fire the unit takes the following penalties (minimum) although I can't say exact amounts:
1) Morale penalty for being fired on;
2) Morale penalty for losing men (in that animation frame);
3) Morale penalty for having less than a full unit;

If the unit is already in bad shape these penalties (on their own) can easily cause a rout. That rout, in turn, puts morale penalties on all friendly/allied units within approx. 2.5 tiles. So there is a chance of a chain rout due to the loss of one man to artillery fire.

I don't know if post-patch artillery has the same general killing ability, but it is still effective. I'm starting to dislike the damage a catapult can do to ground troops...not to mention culverin and serpentines. Is this Medieval or Napoleonics?

[YunDog]

Dion,
I agree about the culverins, their rate of fire and rotation makes them devasting epecially when the enemy has like 6 of them. Dont the siege weapons have added morale penalties - ie weapons cause fear.. what does that mean

[Vinsitor]

Tnx for your answers m8s http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Puzz3D]

Weapons that cause fear, such as gunpowder weapons, inflict a -6 morale penalty on the target. Other weapons, such as arrows, inflict a lesser -2 morale penalty. The penalty is applied for a limited period of time when the target suffers at least one casualty. The red flashing arrows on the target's icon indicates the presence of the penalty.

As Dion says, this is in addition to the morale penalty suffered from taking casualties which the Strategy Guide indicates is:

-2 for 10% casualty rate
-8 for 50% casualty rate
-12 for 80% casualty rate

It's not clear over what time period the rate is calculated or how long the penalty lasts. I believe the rout point is about -16 on the morale scale. So, that gives you some idea of the relative importance of the penalty.

[Daveybaby]

Everything you ever wanted to know about morale.

Morale States:
Impetuous: 10+
Steady: +2 to +14
Uncertain: -5 to +5
Wavering: -14 to -5
Routing: Less then -6

This has hysteresis, i.e: a units morale has to drop below -14 to start to rout, but then has to rise all the way back up to -6 before it will stop routing.

Negative Influences:
Loose Formation: -2
Outnumbered 2 to 1: -4 (* see below)
Outnumbered 3 to 1: -12 (* see below)
One flank threatened: -2
Two flanks threatened: -6
Charged in flank: -4
Charged in flank by cavalry: -6
Charged by unit hidden in forest: -8
General's death (during the first few seconds): -8
After the General's death: -2 (for the rest of the battle)
Routing Friends: Up to -12
10% of unit is dead: -2
50% of unit is dead: -8
80% of unit is dead: -12
Taking missile fire: -2 (-4 if weapons cause fear) (** see below)
Unit is Very Tired: -3
Unit is Exhausted: -6
Unit is completely exhausted: -8
Losing: Up to -8 (up to -14 if losing to cavalry)
Loose formation: -2
Wedge formation (when defending) : -3

Positive Influences:
Protected Flanks: +4
No retreat possible (usually castle sieges): +8
No enemies around: +4
Enemies Routing: Up to +8
Uphill Position: +2
Winning: Up to +6
Impetuous Charge: +4 (when Knights charge automatically)
Outnumber Enemy 3 to 1: +4 (*see below)
General in unit: +2
Close proximity to general: +1 morale per star
Far away from general: +1 morale per 2 stars
Wedge formation (when attacking): +3

* Being outnumbered depends on the quality of the troop. Elites are only afraid of other elites, peasants are afraid of everyone, etc.

** Since you stated that its a -6 penalty for gunpowder weapons, i guess that its a -2 penalty for missile fire, then another -4 on top of that if the weapons cause fear (e.g. gunpowder).


Note that this is all pre-patch info, some of it may have changed in 1.1.

[Daveybaby]

Some other stuff

Valour
For every point of valour the unit gains:
+1 attack
+1 defence
+2 morale

Formations
Wedge Formation: +3 attack, -3 defence
Hold Formation: +2 defence, -2 attack
Loose formation: An individual may be engaged by several opponents when in loose formation.

Rank Bonuses for Spearmen / Pikemen
Spear and pikemen get rank bonuses to combat. Both apply only if a spear/pike unit is in an orderly formation.

Unit formation can break due to a powerful attack that breaks through your spearmen's ranks, or an unwieldy movement command (turning suddenly). You can protect against broken ranks by using the hold formation command.

The bonus for formation is:
+1 bonus to attack per 2 ranks
+1 bonus to defence per rank
+1 per rank to attack when charging

Spearmen can have up to 2 ranks effective in combat while pikemen can have 4. I believe that these rank bonuses ONLY improve your troop's fighting abilities -- they do NOT increase the number of units that can engage a particular enemy. There are no rank bonuses in forests (supposedly... I BELIEVE rank bonuses are actually accruing in forests, so this may be bugged)

Terrain
+1 attack, +1 defence for camels in desert
-2 attack, -2 defence for cavalry in forests
Bonus to attack for being uphill (depends on height)
Penalty to defence for being downhill (depends on height)

Fear of camels
+4 defence for camels against horses
+2 attack for camels against horses

Positional
Attacking Flank: +5 attack
Attacking Rear: +7 attack
Charging Flank/Rear: +2 attack

+6 attack when 'pushing back' the enemy
-5 defence when squeezed too tight

Exhaustion
Quite Tired: -2 attack
Very Tired: -3 attack, -1 defence, -3 morale
Exhausted: -4 attack, -2 defence, -6 morale
Totally Exhausted: -6 attack, -3 defence, -8 morale

Routing
+4 attack against routing enemies
-8 defence if routing


Again, this is all pre-patch.

[Xer0]

Quote[/b] (chunkynut @ Nov. 14 2002,10:23)]Many people, including myself, have had the lucky first shot from the catapult at the gens unit and the buggers down but i dont know about post patch cats. Any takers?
I took down a enemy hungarian general as the byzantine with a mercenry mangold unit. It was fog and rainy and I didnt see the general unit but I pushed that the mangold should shoot against a units of feaudal sergeants (the army was on about 1500 mens) and the rock was shoot away and the general died http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Stygious]

Yep, I can confirm that too. I had two valour 7 catapults pounding enemy spearmen defending a bridge when one lucky rock bounced of the spearmen smashing their general standing behind them. That really made my day even though they didn't rout http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Shahed]

Another awesome post Thx all

[Puzz3D]

LongJohn said that the only changes he made to combat in v1.1 were that cav now has a chance to push back men in spear units, and swords were given +1 attack vs spears.


A note on routing friends:
A unit only feels the morale penalty if the routing friendly is of equal or higher level.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Nov. 19 2002,11:50)]LongJohn said that the only changes he made to combat in v1.1 were that cav now has a chance to push back men in spear units, and swords were given +1 attack vs spears.


A note on routing friends:
A unit only feels the morale penalty if the routing friendly is of equal or higher level.
Hmmm... +1 to attack for swords against spears. Have you got a link somewhere?

About the rounting friends. Are you sure? I mean I have read quite a few times that troops of better quality (Elite, Disciplined) certainly do suffer Morale penalties when Regulars run. But that it is only half of the normal penalty.

[Puzz3D]

Kraxis,

You're right. The morale penalty for seeing lower level routing freinds is 1/2 the regular penalty.

Here is the link on the +1 against spears: http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/003484.html