spies in MTW v1.1

[solypsist]

The abilities of spies have been greatly levelled with the patch applied. Some will feel it is justified, others who probably use spies heavily may feel otherwise. Here's one to start with:

1. It is practically impossible to start rebellions with spies. Personal experience with up to 25 spies in an enemy unguarded province never yielded a rebellion over several years. This has been tested several times. The loyalty declines, but never to the low amount previosuly seen in earlier games.

[Postino]

yep i can confirm that. 30 odd spies in a province with a half stack on it didnt ever rebel. same 30 odd spies finally constantinople to rebel after about a decade at 30% loyalty. god forbid i let my own province loyality drop to 99%, i WILL have a rebellion. also, i notice all rebellions in a comp's province get vannila units, while my rebellions give me chiv knights and feudal foot.

[Lord Romulous]

i dont think i like this change. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

i liked how i could cause rebellions with my spies. oh well one cant be happy with everthing.

anyone know how to mod it back to the old ?

[Radahl]

I thought I had broken the spies in my game. I put in my standard 10 but nothing happened, so I continued untill I had 40 in the province and still nothing??

Hope someone can mod them back close to where they were before the patch.

[Edratman]

I stopped using spies to cause revolts because I thought they were too powerful. I applaud this change.
But it does beg the question, what function do spies have now? I have never had success dropping a spy on an enemy general and finding hidden vices. I keep one in every province because it seems a safe, inexpensive thing to do.

[Nobunaga0611]

yup i've never uncovered a vice either. I've tried it a good 25 times, and not on Kings or anything, a few times it was on normal generals of mine that I knew had hidden vices. I thought I'd reveal them, then strip them of their title, making me seem like I was doing the right thing. Not like the AI would think of that anyways though.

[Lord Romulous]

Quote[/b] ]I stopped using spies to cause revolts because I thought they were too powerful. I applaud this change.


of course the clasic argument is to do what u did. Not spaming spies into a particular enemy provence. I think it was to drastic to totaly eunch spies.

perhaps a solution would be to put a cap on the maximum number of ur spies that can be in a provence at the same time. that way spies are always counterable.

I agree it was un fair to the ai pre patch that u could send 10 spies into his provence and no matter how many troops he garrisoned or what buildings he built there was nothing he could do to stop the provence rebeling.

[Didz]

I have to admit that spies were a bit powerful.

A group of 10 could cause a revolt even in a 200% loyal province.

But the emphasis was on the BIT. If what you are saying is true then it sounds like the mod has gone way over the top in kurbing the ability of spies and one wonders what they are actually good for in the revised game.

This might please the 'hack and slash' brigade but virtually eliminates the a whole strategy from the war of the shadows toolchest.

Bad move in my opinion.

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (Edratman @ Nov. 13 2002,15:01)]I have never had success dropping a spy on an enemy general and finding hidden vices.
Hehe... I have found good and well 50% of what I tried... Just go for the highend generals, kings and heirs. They have Secret Heretic and Secret Adultery quite often.
I have even found three secret Vices in a row on the Italian king, Heretic, Adultery and Bloodlover.

But I must agree for a long time I didn't find any, but then I tried out the Danish king and his heirs and it was a treasurecove of secret Vices.

But the Spy has more abilities. Like the Assasin he captures enemy agents, with a better chance than the Border Fort it seems. He comes better and better after each capture.
He gives loyalty to the province, can be quite important in provinces conquered with small forces or provinces where you are laying siege to the castle.
And the last one is actually quite good. You can orchestrate a trial and get a general executed. A good way to get rid of a troublesome general/governor without losing the unit and without the chance of losing the Spy (like with the Assasin).

[zipnar]

the way spies used to work was way cheesy. i'm glad they fixed it.

[ulyanov]

yeah - I've picked up Secret Vices with my spy, though nothing as exciting as Romulous.

I've even had a Spy report back to me the the Aragonese were preparing an attack "Not this year, but the next" although it never eventuated. I think some rebels took another province from him, and he got scared...

[MizuKokami]

spies also have a chance to open enemy gates when you are seigeing the castles, tho their chances are low. personally, i think the intelligence system for this game is hokey. you have to have so dam many of them, and entering enemy provinces gets them busted way to easy. i am glad that it's harder to inscite rebellions, but it shouldn't be impossible. it should, imo, work like this....you send in a few spies to the province, have them sit there for a few years, and then track down the governor of the province and expose him if possible, then the chances of a revolt happening on it's own without haveing mad spies in the province should happen easily. there should also be a pop down menu with a list of instructions for your spies...such as...seek out disloyal generals, sabotage enemy armory, etc....
these abilities of your spies would be dependent upon the valor they have obtained during their appointed rounds...sigh, i guess i'm dreaming. maybe in a future expansion.:)

[Kraellin]

spies were WAY too powerful in ver 1.0. it was essentially the old shinobi attack with even more abilities and power. so, i was one of those that argued for diminishing their rebellion power. a spy also has NO maintainance cost, which is fine, but combine all his abilities and he is still a VERY powerful unit. he's just no longer an uber unit which can practically win the game single-handedly.

it would seem that he can still incite a rebellion or riot, you have to have him implanted within the area longer so as to 'work the crowd'. instant revolts with moving 10 spies into a province all at once was just silly arcade-style play, albeit somewhat fun at times, but i'd quit using them for the most part because it just seemed too easy and almost like cheating. so, i welcome this change as well.

K.

[Don Megel]

YOu can use spies to put generals on trial? I have one general who has Incest with his daughter. Im sure not gona let that slimmey peice of trash stay alive but he has a unit of Italian ifantry which I need. If I can try him and kill him then that'll be great...how do I do that?

[Sussexonian]

Using spies this way is still a tactic I use but it needs far more of them. I also welcome the change,

[Edratman]

I also welcome the change. I tried spies in my first game or two and thought they were way too powerful so I instituted a self-imposed ban other than in my own lands.
I might try to see if they are better at finding hidden vices now. Before the patch I was about 0 fer 50.

[Radahl]

I use spies to lower loyalty in a provience, so they will move troops into it or be forced to keep them there as I attack another provience.

[insolent1]

Its a pity that they tampered around with it, it should be up to the player if he wants to use them to cause mass revolts. Now you have to have a mountain of spys to cause revolts which means more micromanagement & they still didn't implement strategic unit stacking in the patch

[Lord Romulous]

to any in the know, were assasins changed in the patch?

right now i have 20 of my assasins sitting in my kingdom hoping to catch spies, enemy assasins etc. (so i can level them up where they will stand a chance at kiiling enemy generals)

the problem is not one of them is leveling up. and some of the assasins have been in the kings provence for 60 years. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

vices and virtues seem to be working better. i sent 4 level 0 assasins at a enemy general and after his bodyguards caught all he got the heavy security V&V.

[Kraxis]

Don Megel just drop a Spy on the general you want to get rid of. You will then be asked if the Spy is to orchestrate a trial. Just remember to move the unit out of the army if he is not the commander (you don't want to kill a good general).

About finding hidden Vices, well try to think who normally has all the bad ones? Bad heirs and kings, kings and heirs that stay home too much, generals that has not been moved around. So the Aragonese, Danes and Polish are great targets for this. But I always check the good enemy generals too, who knows he might have a really bad Vice hidden.

[solypsist]

it's preferable to have only one or two spies/agents in a province (plus a guard post thing) to catch enemy spys/assassins. too many and your guys will never level up.

[ulyanov]

This is a little off track, but I'm using Foreign Diplomats and Non-Catholic Holy men who stray into the New Spanish Empire (Iberia, Ireland, Scotland and Scandanavia) to up the levels of my assasins, and leaving Spies at home, to see what happens.

Most of my spies are still 0 or 1 (I've only seen 4 or 5 "caught an assasin" messages) but my assasins are now 4 or 5.

Anyway - why I'm bothering writing is to ask:

Will killing off non-catholic holy men piss the factions off to the point where they will attack? I have no gauge to see how annoyed they are with me, though we are allies.

heh - the only alliance I don't have is the HRE, and that's cos they keep beating the French and getting excommunicated...

[MizuKokami]

when assasins or spies enter my provinces for what ever reason, i get one of several messages. one is, our agent has been assinated and we have no clue. another... we caught and killed an assasin. and another, we caught an assasin and he might be working for such and such. and lastly, we caught an assasin, and before he died he revealed he was working for such and such. with your assasins you get the same messages but only from the other perspective. if you find a body that looks like your assasin, they know it came from you. at least that would be my guess. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

i speculate that if you want to go to war with someone but have them attack you, kill a daughter and then let the assasin get caught.


is it just me, or does that just sound SOOO wrong?

[Kraellin]

yeah, killing princesses is nasty business. but, that brings me to an interesting idea that i've touched on before. what if you could assassinate someone AND pin it on another faction? could make for some interesting play. i also think there might be room for saboteurs that destroy or damage buildings or ships, at least after gunpowder is introduced. surely some bright fellow figured this out way back when. perhaps spies or assassins could have this as another mission type. dont think you'd need a completely new unit for it.

K.

[ulyanov]

solypsist - Just taken the 2 Almoad Iberian provinces from them by using spies in an Early Spanish game, started with 1.1.

Firstly the southern province was fairly unguarded, so I put 10 odd spies on it (Some were rank 1 & 2 from a prevoius HRE revolution I couldn't take advantage of, but did manage to cause). Got a revolt next turn

After the revolt I moved them all home, while the Almoads abandoned the northern province to take out the Rebels.

uly thinks to self - you beauty.... Send the spies back to the southern province, cause revolt, send the spies to the northern province when they Almoads, weakened by the last encounter, try to take the first one back.

Only now the Kaliph is in the southern province. Damn...

So I've put about 16 spies in there, et voila Revolution whip them north as the Almoads come south, and Yup, revolution

The Almoads get beaten into the Fort in both provinces, I wait till they surrender and come in with a nice'n'big army while bribing 1 of the three peasant armies (More Saracens and Muhawids than peasants) and the rest bug out up north. Now I'm just waiting for the North province to fall...

And they (CA) say playing the Spanish is harder... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ulyanov]

...
Quote[/b] ]is it just me, or does that just sound SOOO wrong?
MizuKokami

Heh. Does seem a little wrong, but so is engineering a trial against your own general, or sending the Spanish Inqusition after a guy, hoping to get "Athiest" for the next round...

Not having any luck getting anyone to declare war on me - Spanish are now getting "Mightiest Army" message, I have 100K florins waiting to be spent on *something*.

The HRE has been excommunicated again, maybe I'll go him...

I think the best way to ask for an attack is to keep your provinces fairly undefended... That seems to do the trick

[MizuKokami]

running the risk of losing provinces is potential nasty bussiness, as loseing part of your lands cost you influence on your king. influence is important because it helps you get more marriage propsals, cease fires, and alliances, tho i don't think it's working right. by the time hungary attacks poland, he usually has a 3 or 4 influence, while i have a seven or six. then all my allies cancel their alliances with me instead of him, subsequently attacking me themselves within the next 5 or 10 years. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

oh...since this reply doesn't have anything to do with the topic, i'm just gonna use the word spy here...
SPIES http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[ulyanov]

Onya, Mizu...

what I meant to append to my last post, but totally forgot is that I don't think spies are different from 1.0, I think the bonus you get from troops in a province is different.

In my last game as the turk's I'd hit the win limit on provinces, but elected to go on. From that point on I got between 20 & 30 rebellions whenever I took another province. At that point I packed it in until the patch.

After the patch I began the steamroller all over again, didn't get a single rebellion, though the loyalty did drop in a few provinces but I was able to shuffle troops to prevent a riot.

Now as the Spanish with my 1.1 Game I've got a group of 12 level 3 spies trapsing around the east just setting off the Byzantines, as they're getting too big. I have a larger army & more cash, he has more provinces and enemies... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Mind you - as level 3 spies they seem to have the same effect as level 0, maybe they're just harder to catch, though I avoid border forts, so it's only enemy stealth units that can pick them up...

[Teutonic Knight]

Well, I have the 1092 mod so I don't get to use spies anyway. The reason Paladin excluded them in the mod was because putting 25 spies in a province to start a rebellion was unhistorical and smelled of cheating. --Teutonic Knight

[Rosacrux]

So, probably Paladin should mod them spies in again, since they cause no rebellion anymore, right?

Even though I've used their special ability a few times, when I had my arse kicked badly or I was the clear underdog, I feel this is a great addition, to level them to a decent multi-purpose unit, and not a gamewinner as they were previously.