Unit Statistical Table

[Kraellin]

ok, here's an idea. one of you that knows the CURRENT stats of the units make up a BLANK table and post it here. or make up a table with the current unit stats for all of the units at H2, since that is the default honor level.

others could then copy and paste this table into their posts and alter the numbers the way they think the units shld be. Use ONLY the current japanese units, not the stuff from the expack.

following your table input and below it, write why you think this or that shld be so. let's see if we can come up with a BALANCED set of units according to over a year's worth of 'game testing'.

the table shld include all the various ratings, including when flanking and koku costs and any other pertinent data.

we already know that there are a lot of opinions about guns and cav, especially heavy cav, but lets see the numbers all laid out and hash this out a bit, preferably without flames ;)

any volunteers? to whomever might do this, if you do make up the baseline table, post it first as a separate post and if you then wish to also post what you think it shld be, do that as your next post.

K.

Hey Krae

U mean this?
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/tactics/values.htm

Check this addy maybe you get some more info...see the koku table.
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/frame-tips.htm

Exclusively brought from the Site of The Week. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Tera

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[Kurando]

Hey Tera;

Is there any chance you can make a flow-chart to show costs of units at other than honour level 2? i.e. cost from honour level 0-5?

[Kraellin]

Unit Attk Defs Armr Mrle Walk Run. Cost@H2
YA==| -1 | -1 |. 2 | -4 |. 7 | 12 | 100
YS==|. 0 |. 0 |. 3 |. 2 |. 6 | 10 | 200
ND==|. 5 | -2 |. 1 |. 8 |. 7 | 12 | 300
WM==|. 5 |. 2 |. 1 |. 8 |. 7 | 12 | 500
Nag=|. 0 |. 6 |. 1 |. 0 |. 6 | 10 | 425
Arq=| -6 | -3 |. 2 | -4 |. 7 | 12 | 100
Msk=| -6 | -3 |. 2 | -4 |. 7 | 12 | 175
SA==|. 0 |. 0 |. 1 |. 0 |. 6 | 10 | 300
CA==|. 1 |. 2 |. 3 |. 0 |. 8 | 20 | 450
YC==|. 2 |. 3 |. 3 |. 2 | 10 | 24 | 475
HC==|. 2 |. 6 |. 5 |. 4 |. 8 | 20 | 600

ok, those are the numbers from tera's site. thanks tera :) ignore the .'s. they dont mean decimal point here; i'm just using those cause of the way the dojo handles multiple spaces. to make your own in your own post just do a copy/paste of this table into your own post and then edit the numbers as you think they shld be.

just remember, there are other conditions that modify these stats during play, like the hold/hold thing for ys and the flanking advantages for cav and such.

if the numbers above are wrong...see tera. i just did a copy/paste from his site listed above.

K.

Kurando I'll try to make it...for now see this:
http://terazawa.totalwar.org/tactics/koku.htm

Thanks Krae http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif I am doubting on the armour value of nag though.

Tera

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[Yas Terazawa]

You can check here..
http://shogun.x-y.net/units_battle.htm

then click "COST" Button...

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Eastrn Charisma..

[Alastair]

Terazawa is wrong. Nagis definitely do not have the same amount of armor as No-Dachi.

[Shuko]

Quote Originally posted by Alastair:
Terazawa is wrong. Nagis definitely do not have the same amount of armor as No-Dachi. [/QUOTE]

I raised that point with him months ago, seemed very strange then but that is what they have got, 1 armour for naginatas is ridiculous !

[NinjaKilla]

They should have a higher honour too - I'd certainly stick around longer if I was covered in metal! Besides, they're useless at the moment.

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- Our girls fall for samurai and they'll go chasing after them.
- If the bandits come they'll cut our heads off. We'll worry about the girls later.

From: Seven Samurai

Quote Originally posted by NinjaKilla:
They should have a higher honour too - I'd certainly stick around longer if I was covered in metal! Besides, they're useless at the moment.
[/QUOTE]

of course you would ! you couldn't run if you were covered in metal... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

[ElmarkOFear]

LOL Jaydee! You crack me up! hehe

Quote Terazawa is wrong. Nagis definitely do not have the same amount of armor as No-Dachi.[/QUOTE]

grrrr Im never wrong http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

I took those values from some guide I saw and they matched with many others I saw later on and I can't just change the nagi value to some number or what...but yes nagi have good armour.

I'll add a note tough. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote They should have a higher honour too[/QUOTE]

If you mean Morale, then, No, not at all!

Naginata are renowned for having very bad morale and rout easily.


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[This message has been edited by Terazawa Tokugawa (edited 07-21-2001).]

[Shuko]

Unit Attk Defs Armr Mrle Walk Run. Cost@H2
YA==| -1 | -1 |. 2 | -3 |. 7 | 12 | 100
YS==|. 1 |. 0 |. 3 |. 2 |. 6 | 10 | 200
ND==|. 4 | -1 |. 1 |. 7 |. 7 | 12 | 300
WM==|. 5 |. 2 |. 1 |. 8 |. 7 | 12 | 500
Nag=|. 1 |. 6 |. 4 |. 0 |. 6 | 10 | 425
Arq=| -6 | -3 |. 2 | -3 |. 7 | 12 | 125
Msk=| -5 | -2 |. 2 | -2 |. 7 | 12 | 185
SA==|. 0 |. 1 |. 1 |. 0 |. 7 | 12 | 300
CA==|. 1 |. 2 |. 3 |. 1 |. 9 | 22 | 450
YC==|. 2 |. 3 |. 3 |. 2 | 10 | 25 | 475
HC==|. 2 |. 6 |. 5 |. 4 |. 8 | 19 | 575

Just a starting point, interested to see how others adjust the values. K are you going to average the responses ?

[Kraellin]

not me, bubba. i'm just here for the rice. let's get jaydee to do it ;)

K.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

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I'm a man... I can change... If I have to...
...I guess...

[shingenmitch2]

as a note, in the units section of the Deadly Shingen site, there is this same values chart, and I checked the cost for units 0-9H and that chart is posted as well. must click on "unit statistics" to get pop-up window w/values in a table.
http://www.rit.edu/~mlc8826/

[Puzz3D]

Kraellin,

The table has some errors. YS has def=2, and Nag has armor=5, morale=4, walk=4, and run=8. I'm sure Nag have armor=5, and YS def=2. You can see these two values in the F1 unit status screen before the v1.11 patch broke it. The other numbers come from the online Shogun strategy guide at Gamespot. Also, we know Nags are not as fast as SA. In addition, the table is for honor=0 units. For honor=2 increase attack and defense by +1, and morale by +2.


Unit Attk Defs Armr Mrle Walk Run. Cost@H2
YA==| -1 | -1 |. 2 | -4 |. 7 | 12 | 100
YS==|. 0 |. 2 |. 3 |. 2 |. 6 | 10 | 200
ND==|. 5 | -2 |. 1 |. 8 |. 7 | 12 | 300
WM==|. 5 |. 2 |. 1 |. 8 |. 7 | 12 | 500
Nag=|. 0 |. 6 |. 5 |. 4 |. 4 |. 8 | 425
Arq=| -6 | -3 |. 2 | -4 |. 7 | 12 | 100
Msk=| -6 | -3 |. 2 | -4 |. 7 | 12 | 175
SA==|. 0 |. 0 |. 1 |. 0 |. 6 | 10 | 300
CA==|. 1 |. 2 |. 3 |. 0 |. 8 | 20 | 450
YC==|. 2 |. 3 |. 3 |. 2 | 10 | 24 | 475
HC==|. 2 |. 6 |. 5 |. 4 |. 8 | 20 | 600


A simple change that I think would have a dramatic effect on the gameplay would be to reduce the attack and defense of the WM by -1. That would make them a 4/1. HC should then beat them every time, and ND would be the preferred infantry unit for flanking. It would also mean that the Nag could stand against the WM face to face, and the superior speed of the WM would have to be utilized to outflank the Nag. The WM would still beat up on YS. This seems so obvious to me that I can't understand why the WM is a 5/2 in the first place.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 07-26-2001).]

[Kraellin]

yuuki,

i tend to agree with you and if the history guys are correct then it might shld even be 3/1 for monks.

but those arent my numbers; i just did a cut and paste from tera's site.

the number that is shocking to me, though, is the hc attack number of 2. that seems surprisingly low to me and no wonder they end up in a tie with monks. i would have thought this number would be the highest attack number in the game with about a 6. i'd have also lowered the def number to about a 4 or 3. as it currently stands and not taking flanking bonuses into account, the heavy cav shld be used as a front lines hold position/hold formation unit, which seems quite contrary to how hvy cav units were actually used.

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

Not to say this is true, but I thought Arq's beat Musk's in straight hand-to-hand combat?

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TigerSoul Ii

Set your soul in the arms of Buddha. May you rest in the heart of Havanna.

Don't blame me for mistakes. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

I copied those values from various places which had that identical format.

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[vangersonm]

I heard that the German Werchmact could have easily defeated any Shogun Unit............

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[Major_Dump Asai]

Quote Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:

Terazawa is wrong. Nagis definitely do not have the same amount of armor as No-Dachi.

grrrr Im never wrong http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

I took those values from some guide I saw and they matched with many others I saw later on and I can't just change the nagi value to some number or what...but yes nagi have good armour.

I'll add a note tough. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Quote They should have a higher honour too[/QUOTE]

If you mean Morale, then, No, not at all!

Naginata are renowned for having very bad morale and rout easily.

[/QUOTE]Nags rout easy.
Remember, its not the size of the weapon....but the motion of the ocean.