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View Full Version : Since the patch....



ShaiHulud
11-19-2002, 00:51
Since installing the patch I've noticed a few things....

The AI has markedly improved the survival of its generals. They no longer commit themselves suicidally. They cleverly withhold themselves while developing their forces and the battle, then commit to what, they hope, will be a decisive point. I find that I have to hold my reserves longer to see where he will commit himself. Moreover, the AI general often survives the battle now due to judicious retreats. I like it

The AI strives to acquire my flanks. Even after the battle is begun, he pushes to get his troops on a flank. It takes a watchful eye to maintain the center AND his foot AND his cavalry attempting to flank me. Much better

The AI makes good matchups against my troop types. I take more losses now and I believe it is due to AI choosing good counters at his points of attack. Good

One doesn't dare leave a moderate sized gap in your line after battle is met. The AI exploits it One must admire the AI for its knowledge of where advantage may lie. Good

Attacking cavalry, noted for their h2h, will WITHDRAW before advancing foot, attempting to pull them away from supporting units. They also, now, pull out of a fight, withdraw, and commit themselves again. I love it...

The AI, having determined a battle is lost, will call a general withdrawal now. This is a great improvement over piecemeal deployment of reinforcements to a failed attack. This was a must and I approve.

A few problems....

The AI doesn't use its missile troops very well, yet. They don't do much damage in attacks because they are held too far back. On defense, they are often sent forward early and, when endangered, induce the AI to leave a good defensive position to come to their rescue. The AI won't hold a spear or peasant unit back for their defense and, thus, allows them to be ridden down from the flanks by my cav units. A single peasant unit would give me pause but that is not yet a part of AI tactics.

There are too many peasant units in existence, imo. It's hard to say if this is because the AI develops infrastructure too slowly or if it chooses them for numbers.

The AI seems to choose province leaders poorly.. that is, they do not always choose them for good acumen. This might be acceptable if there were a command star involved, but, this is not the case. Maybe it was determined, at the time, that a general's loyalty needed a boost. That would explain some of the choices I've seen and with that, I'd have no complaint.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the AI generals no longer seem to suffer the 'Hesitant' vice when they withdraw after determining their attack was NOT so good an idea. That's ok with me...

I no longer get scads of generals with stars from my built troops. In fact, after over one hundred years (campaigning as Turks) I think I've had but THREE, total. The overwhelming majority of my generals are the progeny of kings, with a few from bribed armies. This is quite interesting Again, it's ok with me

Loyalist rebellions are still replete with hordes of high quality troops that the AI could not even build before.... well, that's one way to teach you to keep an eye on province loyalty hehe Annoying, but I can live with it.

Only Italy, Sicily, and Byzantium seem to have any naval force worthy of note and they still cluster in a few areas with little effort to expand trade routes. The loss of income due to this does, I believe, significantly weaken the AI factions.

Spy groups, attempting to foment rebellion, are easily countered with the deployment of a moderate amount of troops. Attempting to spy out vices merely makes a leader 'spy-proof' with the 'Informants' virtue. Spys are for defense.

Even a failure by a novice assassin can benefit. The 'Nervous' vice can result and may bring about the general's demise in actual battle. (-5 to health&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Crossbow cavalry can be hired (as mercenaries) long before you'll ever be able to build the crossbow. Likewise, trebuchets....

Overall, (as a SP player) I find the patch to be a great success

Puzz3D
11-19-2002, 02:55
Hi ShaiHulud,

The ai does handle it's general much better now. I had a battle against a 3000 man Egyptian army and I never saw the enemy general. Sometimes the ai general hides in the woods for the first part of a battle. You do have to keep watching for when he makes his move.

I also find the ai chooses excellent matchups. Of course, it can do that because it sees the combat stats of your units and knows whether its unit is stronger than yours. When the ai's unit is weaker, it tries to flank rather than come straight on. It looks like the cav always sets up for flanking. Overall, I find the ai is definitely stronger. I haven't tried any battles at expert difficulty, but they must be very challenging now with the combat and morale advantages the ai is given.

Postino
11-19-2002, 03:22
i walways play expert, and post-patch i got whipped many times. this is after i started treating the comp as a human, that +2 valor on expert makes a HUGE difference. either way the tactical A.I. handles itself much better now.

A.Saturnus
11-19-2002, 18:07
I`m going to install the patch today and I`m very frightened http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

ShaiHulud
11-20-2002, 05:21
Hey, Puzz I've seen your wizened brow in many threads here. You are the motherlode of TotalWar minutae (and a respected oldster). hehe

Your observation explained something that had bothered me. I had a large battle in which I THOUGHT I had missed the General, somehow. The idea that he was hidden... awesome

Last nite I had to meet a resurgent Papal loyalist army of 1800. I had 1100. I was damned near outplayed as the AI, attacking at an angle, attempted to force holes in my defense. He committed his massively armored cav on my right immediately, forcing me to respond from right to left with a general attack. After all my foot were committed, he still had several foot in reserve while I had a cav and my general's bodyguard.

I committed my left cav to a flanking maneuver, successfully... and then he pulled HIS cav from a center battle and engaged there with a reserve. This cav he sent against mine with another of his reserve foot. Now he was fully committed. I sent my general against his, on my right. The various battles teetered back and forth until my left foot (Muwahid..valourous fellows&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif finally broke thru. His right collapsed but his center and left still held. My victorious fellows fell on his center, and then his general, the Pope, fell. Tings are looking good, yes? hehe

When, at long last, the battle ended with nightfall (I won, I guess) my 8 star general, my highest, was dead, along with over 800 of his soldiers. The final battles were between my missile-bereft archers and x-bowmen, 13 horse archers, 17 muwahid, and 23 Saracens. Mind you, my soldiers had an 8-star leader vs his two hehehe Expert can be a real test, as this one was.

Hosakawa Tito
11-20-2002, 05:33
Hi Shai,
Do you also notice that Cav is much more powerful post patch? Cav units can actually push spear units back and can beat them enough to cause them to rout. The AI is definitely much better as you have stated, but they could use their missle units better. They seem to march their archers too close to my lines, then instead of just getting in range and firing away at me, they end up dancing around on skirmish mode.

ShaiHulud
11-20-2002, 06:13
I think my play style will limit me on what I can observe. MY cav avoid spears lol

So, your observation may be accurate. My experience is generally cav vs cav (countering their flanking thrusts). The rest of the time mine have THEIR flank so it's not possible for me to say who stands up well. To quote (or perhaps paraphrase) Patton, I like to grab them by the nose and then kick them in the ass...hehe Puzz3D is a mine of info on what works...perhaps he's already researched it?

MizuKokami
11-20-2002, 06:50
after playing this game post patch now for a couple weeks, i've come to several conclusions. the game is definately harder then it was. with the improved cav and all, and that i've never been good with cav myself, i'm seriously getting hurt. i do believe that the work on the patch should continue, as it's not quite complete, but all in all....

one last thing...the people who made this game are evil, and as soon as i can build inquisitors, i'm gonna frame them...i mean prove it.

as for the ai not picking governors properly, maybe those secret blackmailers are being kept quiet, which is what i've been thinking as to why i have all the pervert heirs, and my enemies don't.

insolent1
11-20-2002, 07:59
At the start of a battle the AI now picks the best 15 units available & the general. If the general is in a depleted unit (around half strength) the general & his unit will be withdrawn once the player clicks "begin battle"

einar
11-20-2002, 13:30
Last week, i'm playing with the russians and i've a battle against the mongols. The general of the mongol army was the Khan itself. I've installed the 1.1 patch. I'm defending a bridge. The map has two bridges. The enemy attacked only one of the bridges, the other stands alone. I've three units of halberdiers and one of spearmen. My troops defended the bridge and the enemy launched all his troops against the halberdiers. Their cavalry took a heavy corrective and their ranks began to low dangerously. The Khan attacked my line and went to hell. I think this is a very stupid behaviour of the AI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Puzz3D
11-20-2002, 14:39
ShaiHulud,


Insolent1 has the answer for the general who isn't there. He not on the visible battlefield, but his troops are still getting the benefit of his command rating. They don't loose that unless you actually kill the general.

When I'm outnumbered and fighting a defensive battle, I've been using my cav to counter the ai's flanking cav just as you are. Feudal Sergeants with archer support still work as a main line, but the Sergeants take heavy losses so you need replacement units arriving on each turn.

Orda Khan
11-20-2002, 15:29
Einar, I have found the same I have had 20 battles now against the Horde and have lost only 4 and these because I was hopelessly outnumbered - 1st battle 1500 v 150, just too many horse archers. The Horde are relentless but I'm not too impressed with the tactics

........Orda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

The Scourge
11-20-2002, 16:07
Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Nov. 20 2002,07:39)]ShaiHulud,


Insolent1 has the answer for the general who isn't there. He not on the visible battlefield, but his troops are still getting the benefit of his command rating. They don't loose that unless you actually kill the general.
Never seen that happen before,but can you do that as well?

einar
11-20-2002, 16:53
Quote[/b] ]Posted on Nov. 20 2002,08:29 by Orda Khan
Einar, I have found the same I have had 20 battles now against the Horde and have lost only 4 and these because I was hopelessly outnumbered - 1st battle 1500 v 150, just too many horse archers. The Horde are relentless but I'm not too impressed with the tactics

Yes, maybe the Golden Horde needs more units types to compete with the rest of factions. In the patch they 've added more mongols units, but their tactics are very poor. I dont't know if the Horde have caused troubles to anyone...

Nelson
11-21-2002, 06:19
Quote[/b] (insolent1 @ Nov. 20 2002,00:59)]At the start of a battle the AI now picks the best 15 units available & the general. If the general is in a depleted unit (around half strength) the general & his unit will be withdrawn once the player clicks "begin battle"

Ah HA So that's what happened Thank you insolent1. I had a massive battle in Wessex as the Danes with 3000 men vs the Almohads with 5000. I was attacking with a 7 star leader. The Almos had a seven star too and taking him out was a priority from the beginning. I had planned to use a "fait du mort" of three royal knight units to seek him out whatever the cost. But I never laid eyes on him. I had to live with a highly motivated enemy throughout the engagement. His AUM formations got the crossbow/arbalest treatment which is time consuming but effective. Those guys are bad news. Finally the Almo reinforcements became all archers and peasants at which point a general advance across the field with tired troops was enough to clich the victory. I won the fight but it was an exceedingly long grim affair lasting over an hour as fresh troops from both sides marched to the slaughterhouse. Until now I didn't know what ever became of the Almohad commander and thought I had experienced a bug.

scipio spinx
11-21-2002, 21:05
The Tactical AI has definitely improved post-patch. I fought my toughest battle last night (Italy, Early, Expert).
1800 Italians (led by 5 star) vs 1150 Sicilians (led by 5 star)

My guys were mostly upgraded FMAA's & Spears, with 2 units of Kwaz Cav and 24 merc Knights Templar. The Sicilians had 84 Royal Knights (the entire Sicilian Royal Family save the King), FMAA's, Militia Sergeants & Feudal Sergeants.

The AI set up in a wooded ridge that sat slightly uphill from my starting position. When I attacked, 84 Royal Knights came charging out of another wood on my extreme right flank. 2 units of Knights engaged my right most Spearmen, who had to wheel to face the charge. The AI then used 1 of the remaining units of Knights to circle into the gap that now existed in my line between the Spearmen and a unit of FMAA's and smash into the flank of my Spears. I could see the line of Spearmen shiver as the charge flung them bodily into their fellows.

Then the damn AI broke off, backed off and charged in again. In 2 charges, I must have lost 40 men. As the Knights backed off again, my Spearmen broke. I had to commit my Spear reserves on the right, the center started to crumble (the AI committed its general's unit of Knights there), I had to commit my general (an Urban Militia unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif) who took a beating and then broke, officially starting the general rout http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

The day was only saved when a reinforcing unit of Vikings (thank you good morale) caught the enemy general's weakened unit of Knights in a little copse of trees near my edge of the map and butchered them to a man, weakening the enemy's morale and allowing my Spear reinforcements to chase his Peasant reinforcements off the map.

Still, it was a far tougher battle than I expected. The AI chose very good terrain, attempted an ambush on my flanks, then repeatedly used his cavalry to great effect.

ShaiHulud
11-21-2002, 22:24
Scipio...

Tremendous battle, eh? Thus far, I have not been ambushed but just the thought will now keep me on tenterhooks..hehe

Insolent, Puzz...

VERY interesting Thanks

Btw, Puzz... Don't you just love it when you've got your defense set, high on some daunting hill, and your crazed zealots go rushing down, WITHOUT ORDERS lol

rbb
11-22-2002, 00:40
I agree with everything that has been said about the AI showing much more intelligence, and imagination in the tactical battles, since the patch.
I, myself, have had many challenging, and attractive battles, after installing it.
But what I would like to say, and echo many comments in other threads, is that after the patch, the tactical battles often play slower and sometimes even jerky.
And this is with the D3D PCI options, and BIOS AGP appetures still adjusted to the best settings, plus, of course the latest drivers.
So far there has been no acknoweledgement, or explanation of these (random) slowdowns, or any suggestions of a remedy.
Sometimes I am tempted to reinstall Medieval, WITHOUT the patch, to get the previously silky smooth battles back.