RIP Ian Paisley

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ian Paisley, former First Minister of Northern Ireland, has passed away aged 88 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29177705).

It is a rare thing to see a single individual so totally encapsulate the spirit of a people. From being an imprisoned protestor, to donning the red beret, to founding the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, to entering politics and forming the DUP, to leading the Orangemen at Drumcree, to becoming First Minister at Stormont, to finally ending his years in the House of Lords - he was in every way the quintessential Ulsterman and a committed and proud British citizen.

Though he was seen by many as a firebrand and a demagogue, in his later years he was central in the formation of a power-sharing government at Stormont, making peace with Sinn Fein and putting an end to the cycle of violence that had torn Northern Ireland apart during the troubles.

It seems that so many of the characters that defined the politics of recent decades are passing away. RIP Ian Paisley. :bow:

[HoreTore]

-edit-

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That does not exactly conform to the "await the conclusion of the funerary rites" tradition of the Backroom, does it?

[HoreTore]

Did we await the funeral rites on OBL?

[drone]

Did we await the funeral rites on OBL?

Technically, yes.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I was a supporter of the IRA, but Paisley's later years weren't that bad. One Ireland, or at least throw off the yolk of John Bull.

"Paisley was still a unionist, McGuinness still a republican. It is to his credit and McGuinness’s great patience that they created a space where each could find common cause with the other.

Paisley embraced the new dispensation. At his first meeting with McGuinness he declared: "We don’t need Englishmen to rule us. We can do that ourselves."

Gerry Adams on the Death of Paisley
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/12/ian-paisley-northern-ireland-sinn-fein

[Greyblades]

I was a supporter of the IRA, but Paisley's later years weren't that bad. One Ireland, or at least throw off the yolk of John Bull.

I would have been susprised that ICSD is/was a terrorist supporter, if I hadn't known him for more than 5 seconds.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Did we await the funeral rites on OBL?

Yes, as drone noted. I would freely admit that such rites were.....truncated a bit....over what might have been done with a more public ceremony.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Did we await the funeral rites on OBL?

Are you trying to plunge to new lows?

[HoreTore]

Are you trying to plunge to new lows?

My response was far kinder than Paisleys response to the deaths of others.

You reap what you sow.

[Kadagar_AV]

Gotta love communists quoting the bible...

Now if only we could get a nazi islamist in here, the circus would be complete.

[HoreTore]

Gotta love communists quoting the bible...

Paisley was a christian fundie, bible quotes are highly relevant I'd say.

[Rhyfelwyr]

My response was far kinder than Paisleys response to the deaths of others.

You reap what you sow.

Hmm... odd how you can be so unsympathetic towards Paisley, and yet so sympathetic to somebody like Mandela, who went far beyond Paisley's harsh words and actually took part in terrorist activity. From the 'Mandela - Sinner or Saint' (forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?146361-Mandela-Sinner-or-Saint) thread:


What Mandela's racist opposition(like PJ) somehow doesn't seem to get, is that we hail Mandela because he renounced his previous violence. The man who left Robben Island was a very different man than the one who went in, and it is that man we admire.

Paisley moved away from his hardline approach and played a huge role in the peace process and in creating the existing power-sharing agreement, and yet for some reason in Paisley's case that isn't good enough for you.

I wonder why it is you seem to have such double standards?

[HoreTore]

Paisleys old links to terrorism is not the reason I dislike him.

[Greyblades]

They maybe you could tell us why you hate him, or are you going to leave us hanging like so many fragonys?

[HoreTore]

They why do you hate him, or are you going to leave us hanging like so many fragonys.

I was going to leave you hanging, yes, due to Lemur's edit of my first post. But since you ask directly:

Paisley was a fiery fundamentalist with extreme anti-gay views. He sought to make life as difficult as possible for those who are not like him.

Mandela, on the other hand, was a staunch supporter of LGBT rights (http://www.queerty.com/five-reasons-why-nelson-mandela-is-an-epochal-figure-for-lgbt-rights-20131205).

[Beskar]

Now if only we could get a nazi islamist in here, the circus would be complete.

There is quite a pick of islamist nationalists around.

[HopAlongBunny]

RIP :bow:

The man was a contradiction; in the end he came down on the side of his country and peace...

[Kadagar_AV]

RIP :bow:

The man was a contradiction; in the end he came down on the side of his country and peace...

Yeah, but was he for LGBT rights?

Country and peace is all well and stuff, but the real issue of Ireland, where he acted around the 1950's... Was all about gay and transgender issues.

On a completely unrelated note, we need a smiley dripping of sarcasm...




There is quite a pick of islamist nationalists around.

Admittedly... But we'd still need a real nazi one to make the forum complete. Haven't heard even one of them speak about "lebensraum"...

[Greyblades]

Admittedly... But we'd still need a real nazi one to make the forum complete.

...heh.

[HoreTore]

Yeah, but was he for LGBT rights?

Country and peace is all well and stuff, but the real issue of Ireland, where he acted around the 1950's... Was all about gay and transgender issues.

On a completely unrelated note, we need a smiley dripping of sarcasm...

Had his gaybashing been just one issue with an otherwise decent man, I would have had no problems with Paisley.

But the fact is, Paisley was a man filled with hate towards anyone and everything which differed from himself. Whether it was gays, young women, catholics, liberal-minded priests; if you strayed from what Paisley saw as good behaviour, he would do what he could to make your life as hard as possible. He accepted no opinion other than his own. He would have thrown you in jail if he could as well, Kad. He was the protestant version of the Taliban.

I have nothing good to say about the man. It was Hume and Trimble who recieved the peace prize for their work, and it was they who created the peace. Paisley was not a creator of peace(he in fact campaigned against it), he was one of those who had to be forced to accept it. That he finally caved under the pressure on one issue does not make him a saint.

He remained filled with hate until the end of his days.

Good riddance.

[Sarmatian]

Did we await the funeral rites on OBL?


Technically, yes.

Actually... (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?135182-Osama-Bin-Laden-is-Dead)

[Kadagar_AV]

Actually... (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?135182-Osama-Bin-Laden-is-Dead)


He was buried before the world knew he was dead, so yes we waited till after the funeral rights.

On a rather important sidenote, moderation really wasn't as objective as it is today... Got to hand it to the current mods, they do an awesome job imho.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It's a disgrace this thread went the way it did.

OBL and gay rights... words fail me.

But such is the way of a wicked world and Paisley knew it to be so. He never let hatred of mockers and ideologues stand in his way in his life, and they won't overshadow his achievements in his death.

Perhaps God called him home before he could see his beloved country torn apart on Thursday. RIP Ian Paisley, a true son of Ulster and a British patriot like no other.

[HoreTore]

Should we go into his numerous and ridiculous attacks on the Pope for being the anti-christ instead?

A position, mind you, that he has never renounced.

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah... Let's go back to what Rhyf said, shall we?

[HoreTore]

Paisley did nothing to promote peace in Northern Ireland.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Paisley did nothing to promote peace in Northern Ireland.

Technically, he did a bit to promote self-rule - which is to promote peace. The main opposition of the Republicans was based on the cause of self-government.
The culture and religion of your neighbors cannot be your concern, only the fact that they are traitors with a foreign allegiance.

Many modern Unionists are less adamant British subjects and are more able to recognize the need for self-rule as Northern Irishmen. Hopefully, they will drop the Union BS and NI can become a sovereign state - even if they are not attached to the Republic; maybe like an Andorra or something, sovereign but clearly in the orbit of both France and Spain.

[Greyblades]

Ugh. Kindly keep your libertarian "seperatism for its own sake" drivel to your own continent please.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Ugh. Kindly keep your libertarian "seperatism for its own sake" drivel to your own continent please.

Let's see where the Scots-Irish Orangemen go after the referendum - if it comes to a "YES" win. Right now, they support continued Union; what will happen if Scotland becomes an independent nation? What do Scots-Irish believe in then? Will it rupture their coalition with the Anglo-Irish?

How can Scots, in Ireland, rationalize demanding that NI remain part of the Union when their own homeland isn't even a part of the Union anymore? What do they do!??!? Where does the vestigial Unionist movement go with Paisley dead and Scotland de-unionized? Into the Orange Turd Bucket and out the door!

As much as I respect the UK - there is something delicious to this stuff. For a libertarian/American/Gael; this is too good to be true.

[Montmorency]

How can Scots, in Ireland, rationalize demanding that NI remain part of the Union when their own homeland isn't even a part of the Union anymore?

Northern Ireland is not Scotland? Northern-Irish Scots are not Scottish Scots?

By this logic, you should be one of those people who fervently believe that the "Latins" are out to 'colonize' the US.

[ICantSpellDawg]

You don't see a problem? If Scots can dissolve union, why can't Irish? The nationalist underpinning of Scots-Irish sentiment may be undercut by new events. If Scotland isn't part of the Union, then what are Scots in Ireland arguing about?

[Montmorency]

It's not a matter of can - it's a matter of wanting to. If Scotland were to leave, why would Northern Ireland suddenly want to leave itself?

[Pannonian]

You don't see a problem? If Scots can dissolve union, why can't Irish? The nationalist underpinning of Scots-Irish sentiment may be undercut by new events. If Scotland isn't part of the Union, then what are Scots in Ireland arguing about?

Self-determination. A significant chunk of NI Catholics prefer the status quo to remain. After the Troubles had ended, the Union has been good for them.

[Greyblades]

Let's see where the Scots-Irish Orangemen go after the referendum - if it comes to a "YES" win. Right now, they support continued Union; what will happen if Scotland becomes an independent nation? What do Scots-Irish believe in then? Will it rupture their coalition with the Anglo-Irish?

How can Scots, in Ireland, rationalize demanding that NI remain part of the Union when their own homeland isn't even a part of the Union anymore? What do they do!??!? Where does the vestigial Unionist movement go with Paisley dead and Scotland de-unionized? Into the Orange Turd Bucket and out the door!

As much as I respect the UK - there is something delicious to this stuff. For a libertarian/American/Gael; this is too good to be true.They're not in the union because they have no way out they're in it because they dont want to leave and one group now wanting to leave wont automatically open the floodgates. If it did the troubles wouldnt have ended and the refurrendum wouldnt be such a close thing. Your assumption that everyone is in the union because they had no choice and will jump at the chance is frankly insulting.

[Pannonian]

They're not in the union because they have no way out they're in it because they dont want to leave. If they did the troubles wouldnt have ended and the refurrendum wouldnt be such a close thing. Your assumption that everyone is in the union because they had no choice and will jump at the chance is frankly insulting and speaks much of your world view.

Stability since the Troubles ended, more public spending per capita than any other constituent part of the UK, free market as part of the EU but with lower taxes, hence booming trade with the Republic. I can't find the graph again, but polls since the 00s show roughly the same number of NI Catholics in favour of the status quo as favour unification with the RoI.

[Sarmatian]

Ugh. Kindly keep your libertarian "seperatism for its own sake" drivel to your own continent please.

Isn't that the basis for UK's platform for leaving EU - "you're not us and we want to be ruled only by us"?

[Greyblades]

Isn't that the basis for UK's platform for leaving EU - "you're not us and we want to be ruled only by us"?

For some, libertarianism isnt unique to america but Scotland has been fairly happy as a part of britain for 300 years and has repeatedly benefited from it whereas Britain has never been happy with europe.

For me, beyond base nationalism which I wont deny, its: "Our politicians are lacklustre, but the european union has repeatedly shown themselves as worse, why would we chose them over ours?"

Plus we get more out of being "with but not of".

[Rhyfelwyr]

ICSD brings up some some of the darker undercurrents to the independence issue that the mainstream media have not picked up upon.

You see while polite society is concerning itself with economics, defence, education, employment, social democracy, and all these things so endlessly discussed by politicians on the TV debates; the truth is that for the 'scummier' elements of Scottish society (as they are generally perceived), this is all really just a continuation of the religious wars of the 17th Century. It's the world of Protestant, Anglo-Saxon British monarchy against the world of Catholic, Gaelic republicanism.

Working-class Catholics are much more likely to vote Yes than working-class Protestants. These views are mirrored by the respective communities in Northern Ireland. The polls conducted at the forums of fan groups for a certain two football clubs are pretty telling. At a Celtic forum 86% say Yes to independence (http://www.talkceltic.net/forum/showthread.php?t=125857). At a Rangers one, just 16% say Yes (http://www.dothebouncy.com/main/threads/the-big-dtb-scottish-independence-referendum-poll.60185/).

The media has ignored this dynamic to things. Not consciously in the sense they are biased or conspiratorial; rather it is simply because the working-class PUL (Protestant Unionist Loyalist) and CNR (Catholic Nationalist Republican) communities you find mainly in Western/Central Scotland do not have the social capital to make their voices heard.

It is almost like some sort of completely independent debate going on in parallel to the main one that the rest of society is concerned with.

[ICantSpellDawg]

But isn't it always?

I just love peaceful separation. Some posh wanker builds something super fancy and someone else tells him to sod off and breaks it in half, using it totally differently than expected. Wahooo!

[Pannonian]

But isn't it always?

I just love peaceful separation. Some posh wanker builds something super fancy and someone else tells him to sod off and breaks it in half, using it totally differently than expected. Wahooo!

At least we allow peaceful separation if the people wish it so. The same can't be said of the Union on the other side of the Atlantic.

[ICantSpellDawg]

We will too. We just need to figure out how to do it the right way. As it stands, if there was a major division, those in the South would have all the guns they wanted, but they'd lose the first amendment. In the North, the constitution would cover feelings and have the police knocking your door down over a fork that was too sharp for public safety. I'd like to dismantling the powers of the Union and continue the court process of clipping the Federal governments wings.

We tried separation a long time ago, when government burning its way to the sea and waging war on civilians was permissible. Today, as long as there are healthy precedents, it may be z bit more cordial.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Self-determination. A significant chunk of NI Catholics prefer the status quo to remain. After the Troubles had ended, the Union has been good for them.

A basic factor valid almost anywhere. What most people want, in their day-to-day lives, is a modicum of personal freedom, the chance to earn a reasonable living, and a basic sense of security in their persons and property. When the Troubles ended, most folks could do this -- and many don't care all that much about what bit of bunting is flying atop the metal pole at the local government office.