Swedish election results are in

[HoreTore]

So, the utopian socialist failure that was the conservative government of Fredrik Reinfeldt has gone, in comes a new social democratic coalition (http://time.com/3373946/sweden-parliament-election/).

Now the right-wing nonsense about Sweden being ruled by socialists finally makes at least some sense.

The party who 'represents the majority', the swedish democrats, got 13% of the vote. I for one hope that the first decision made by the new government is to send the SD-representatives to a 3rd grade math course so they will finally learn what the word 'majority' means.

In conclusion: Hurrah!

[Rhyfelwyr]

Does this give reason to hope that Sweden will stop dismantling its once renowned welfare state? Perhaps the socialists and the SDs might even find some common ground on that particular issue.

[HoreTore]

Does this give reason to hope that Sweden will stop dismantling its once renowned welfare state?

The current dismantling was started by a labour government, but if they follow in Norways footsteps, yup, they will probably stop. At least we probably won't see any proposals to give tax breaks for hiring maids...


Perhaps the socialists and the SDs might even find some common ground on that particular issue.

Not going to happen, the SD is boycotted from any type of cooperation with any of the other parties. In fact, the conservatives could've easily gained a majority by allying with SD, but they are more than happy to give up the government to avoid working with SD.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The current dismantling was started by a labour government, but if they follow in Norways footsteps, yup, they will probably stop. At least we probably won't see any proposals to give tax breaks for hiring maids...



Not going to happen, the SD is boycotted from any type of cooperation with any of the other parties. In fact, the conservatives could've easily gained a majority by allying with SD, but they are more than happy to give up the government to avoid working with SD.

Well, 10 out of 10 for sticking to your principles.....perhaps less of a positive score for practicality.

[Paltmull]

So, the utopian socialist failure that was the conservative government of Fredrik Reinfeldt has gone, in comes a new social democratic coalition (http://time.com/3373946/sweden-parliament-election/).

Now the right-wing nonsense about Sweden being ruled by socialists finally makes at least some sense.

The party who 'represents the majority', the swedish democrats, got 13% of the vote. I for one hope that the first decision made by the new government is to send the SD-representatives to a 3rd grade math course so they will finally learn what the word 'majority' means.

In conclusion: Hurrah!

The support for the left wing parties is almost excactly the same as in the last election though. The big change is that the support for the biggest government party (Moderates) has decreased a lot while the that for the Sweden Democrats has doubled. It's extremely worrying that a nationalist party with roots in fascism and white power ideology (although they of course claim that they've moved away from that) gets that many votes.

If anyone's interested, the graph below compares the (preliminary) election results (coloured) with those from the last election in 2010 (grey).

The (previous government) right-wing parties are: M; Moderates (conservative), C; Centre Party (rural/liberal/green), FP; Liberal Party and KD; Christian Democrats.

The left-wing parties are: S; Social Democrats, V; Left Party (socialist) and MP; Green Party.

SD is the Sweden Democrats and FI is the Feminist Party who, sadly, didn't reach the 4% required to get seats in the parliament. ÖVR is others.

https://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss154/paltmull/valres.png

[HoreTore]

Meh, I'm not too concerned about that as long as they're kept out of politics. It will only get dangerous once the moderates see them as an ally. In the meantime, it's no more than a fun fact that 700.000 Swedes voted for the nazi party.

[Montmorency]

it's no more than a fun fact that 700.000 Swedes voted for the nazi party.

Gah?

[HoreTore]

Gah?

http://a.bimg.dk/node-images/662/7/620x/7662145-expressen.jpg

The text reads "Yesterday, 781.120 Swedes voted for [SD's party logo]"

[Fragony]

Parties like the Swedish Democrats only exist because of the denial of certain problems, problems that are getting worse. They are bad news and I don't like them.

[Crandar]

In conclusion: Hurrah!
I wouldn't be very excited.
Even an unprobable alliance between the SD and the Left wouldn't successfully stop the loss of basic labour and welfare rights, in favvour of the capitalism.
Just look at Denmark's example.
The only appopriate solution, in my opinion, would be the Kommunistiska Partiet, but their popularity is extremely low, even for the Scandinavian standards.

[HoreTore]

Stoltenberg used to be a hardline supporter of NPM as well, he changed around during the last 8 year period. Hopefully the Swedes will do the same.

And SD will be kept out of everything.

[Paltmull]

Meh, I'm not too concerned about that as long as they're kept out of politics. It will only get dangerous once the moderates see them as an ally. In the meantime, it's no more than a fun fact that 700.000 Swedes voted for the nazi party.

They'll be kept out for sure, but that requires lot of cooperation and compromises since the government will be in minority in the parliament; and will probably result in much less efficiency. But it's still quite terrifying to me that a tenth of the Swedish population supports the Sweden Democrats.


I wouldn't be very excited.
Even an unprobable alliance between the SD and the Left wouldn't successfully stop the loss of basic labour and welfare rights, in favvour of the capitalism.
Just look at Denmark's example.
The only appopriate solution, in my opinion, would be the Kommunistiska Partiet, but their popularity is extremely low, even for the Scandinavian standards.

Also Stefan Löfven, the leader of the Social Democrats, announced yesterday that he did not want the socialist Left Party to be part of his government, since that would make it more difficult to negotiate and come to agreements with the other parties. So we can probably excpect policies to be more middle than socialist. It's also quite unlikely that the labour tax cuts implemented by the conservative government will be undone, but hopefully there at least won't be any more of them for a while.

[Kadagar_AV]

LOL @ the analysis so far...



Most parties more or less remained slightly worse.

The Moderates, who lead the country the last 8 years, went back some 7%.

SD, (Swedish Democrats) got 13%, and is now third biggest party out of eight.

The feminist party aaaaaalmost made it in with slightly more than 3% of the votes... 4% is required to start getting seats in parliament.


I am happy that SD did so damn well. They are socially conservative (although people like Paltmull probably will scream bloody nazi murder).

SD wants to work towards making Sweden an inclusive society again, with well working wellfare and social security. Their extreme lift in popularity shows that a LOT of Swedes are seeing problems with immigration, and don't think that any other party take their concerns seriously.

I, for one.


Biggest happy thingy for me though was that the extreme leftist feminists didn't get seats... Those people are completely nuts, and it would be an embarrassment to Sweden, were they voted in.

So, a very good election for me...

The party I voted for almost trippled their votes since the last election, and the party I despise didn't get any seats.

Champagne for everyone :wine:~:cheers::barrel:~:grouphug:

[HoreTore]

I actually prefer minority governments to majority governments. I don't see them as less effective, why should they be?

What it means is that they have to compromise, they can't just plow their their own policies. How is that a bad thing?

[Beskar]

What it means is that they have to compromise, they can't just plow their their own policies. How is that a bad thing?

Half-measures sometimes really doesn't cut it. Look at USA health-system for an example of that.

[Kadagar_AV]

Half-measures sometimes really doesn't cut it. Look at USA health-system for an example of that.

In Sweden, two of the town up north fought about who should get the new hospital.

Town A claimed they should get it, as they have more population.

Town B claimed they should get it, as they held several military regiments and are more prone to injury.


The compromise was to build it in between the two towns, so that pretty much no one gets there in time at emergencies... yey for compromises...

If you ask why they can't have two hospitals... Well, they compromised it away to be able to build one hospital, in return the farmers got lower taxes.

[HoreTore]

Half-measures sometimes really doesn't cut it. Look at USA health-system for an example of that.

That only proves it won't work when one side is insane.

European conservative parties are, thankfully, sane.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Half-measures sometimes really doesn't cut it. Look at USA health-system for an example of that.

You mean our mix of government-mandated, fee-for-service, and taxpayer-provided is somehow lacking?

Oh, the shock......

[Fragony]

European conservative parties are, thankfully, sane.

Depends on thinking longterm or short-term. Parties like the SD don't need a watch to have the time. As long as certain policy's like welcome and bring your whole retarded village here don't change parties like SD will grow. A cordon sanitaire around the SD will only be counterproductive as it only breeds resentment.

[HoreTore]

SD is not a conservative party, frags.

'Conservative parties of Europe' refers to parties like the tories and moderatarna.

[Fragony]

SD is not a conservative party, frags.

'Conservative parties of Europe' refers to parties like the tories and moderatarna.

I know, and I absolutily don't like what I see in the SD, but their existance is the effect of the faillure of multicultulti. They will only grow because it's going to be be hard to get Gustav on a 99% white school eventually. Multiculture remains something others should do, and that is why the SD is growing. It's a leftist hobby to be multicultural-minded, feels sooo good

[Crandar]

but their existance is the effect of the faillure of multicultulti.
I'd also say the failure of the educative system and the success of EU's anti-communist propaganda (basically a combination of equating communism with fascism, as well as glamourizing the anti-communist factions of Eastern Europe, from the eyball-eating Horthy to the uprising of Prague) might have player a role.

[Kadagar_AV]

I know, and I absolutily don't like what I see in the SD, but their existance is the effect of the faillure of multicultulti. They will only grow because it's going to be be hard to get Gustav on a 99% white school eventually. Multiculture remains something others should do, and that is why the SD is growing. It's a leftist hobby to be multicultural-minded, feels sooo good

SD is actually a Social Conservative party, not nationalistic. They think Sweden had something good going around the 70's, and would like to try and bring some of it back.

They want to limit immigration to EU's recommendation levels... Hardly a racist or nationalistic view. Specially after so long having had one of the worlds most open immigration policies... Time to make sure the immigrants we already have get assimilated in the Swedish society, before we accept more massive waves of immigration, without really having a plan for how to include them in society.

Leftist media of course paint them up as somewhere more racist than the Nazi Party... This has lead to some people joining and voting for SD for the wrong reasons... SD is a new party, and have some culling to do, to get rid of some idiots, though. I guess all new partys do.

[HoreTore]

I know, and I absolutily don't like what I see in the SD, but their existance is the effect of the faillure of multicultulti. They will only grow because it's going to be be hard to get Gustav on a 99% white school eventually. Multiculture remains something others should do, and that is why the SD is growing. It's a leftist hobby to be multicultural-minded, feels sooo good

Is that why SD is strongest in areas where there is less immigration...?

Stockholm, for example, has little support for SD. Their largest growth in this election was among the depopulated rural north(excluding the population centres), where you are not likely to encounter many immigrants.

As always, it is those with the least experience with immigrants who fear them most.

To say that SD, the party who actually had to ban nazi paraphernalia from their meetings and rallies, is NOT a nationalist party is just silly. They are literally a relabeled nazi party.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Do most European nations actually ban Nazi parties?

I have always wondered about that. It strikes me that social marginalization is the better route. We have that here in the USA. Consequently, those folks who self-identify as Nazis in this country despite the social ostracism involved have clearly labeled themselves as malfing idiots and trouble-makers.

Makes it far easier to identify them and to have the authorities quietly watching them -- almost as though they have volunteered to wear their equivalents of little yellow stars of David.

[HoreTore]

Do most European nations actually ban Nazi parties?

I have always wondered about that. It strikes me that social marginalization is the better route. We have that here in the USA. Consequently, those folks who self-identify as Nazis in this country despite the social ostracism involved have clearly labeled themselves as malfing idiots and trouble-makers.

Makes it far easier to identify them and to have the authorities quietly watching them -- almost as though they have volunteered to wear their equivalents of little yellow stars of David.

Only Austria, Germany and a couple of the former soviets as far as I know do that.

[Fragony]

SD is actually a Social Conservative party, not nationalistic. They think Sweden had something good going around the 70's, and would like to try and bring some of it back.

They want to limit immigration to EU's recommendation levels... Hardly a racist or nationalistic view. Specially after so long having had one of the worlds most open immigration policies... Time to make sure the immigrants we already have get assimilated in the Swedish society, before we accept more massive waves of immigration, without really having a plan for how to include them in society.

Can only agree with that.

[Kadagar_AV]

Can only agree with that.

Of course, I am effin brilliant :2thumbsup:

[Beskar]

You mean our mix of government-mandated, fee-for-service, and taxpayer-provided is somehow lacking?

Oh, the shock......

I can accept some fee-paying, like $20 for a GP appointment, but government-mandated and taxpayer-provided goes out of the window when you are actually seriously ill, then get loaded with a $150,000 bill for Chemotherapy.

Seen too many fundraising for loved ones for people in America, and it is rather heartbreaking to hear about them, stories such as people staying outside the hospital in a tent, to reduce costs and how charity-aid clinics are overcrowded with Americans who haven't been treated for years with ailments because of the costs. Other times, people opting to die due to preventable illnesses because of the costs.

Sure, I have heard the apologists too "lol, rich people from your country come to America, we have the best healthcare", they fail to miss the point that it has the best healthcare if you can actually afford it, you know, the 1% and not the 99% of the rest.

Sorry about the tangent, just wanted to rant a little about it. I find it bothersome how they are not protected the same way I am, and it feels more like ignorance which is preventing it.

[Kadagar_AV]

In Austria you would only have to pay about 2 USD a day for the food you eat while at the hospital... I know, my dad had chemo there. Medicine is sponsored by the state, so you pay about 1/10 of the actual price.

In Sweden you would pay around 14 USD for the initial visit to the doctor... Medicine is very sponsored by the state, and after you paid around 200 USD, you get everything for free (yearly basis).

I am so damn glad I'm not USAnian.

[Ironside]

SD is actually a Social Conservative party, not nationalistic. They think Sweden had something good going around the 70's, and would like to try and bring some of it back.

They want to limit immigration to EU's recommendation levels... Hardly a racist or nationalistic view. Specially after so long having had one of the worlds most open immigration policies... Time to make sure the immigrants we already have get assimilated in the Swedish society, before we accept more massive waves of immigration, without really having a plan for how to include them in society.

Leftist media of course paint them up as somewhere more racist than the Nazi Party... This has lead to some people joining and voting for SD for the wrong reasons... SD is a new party, and have some culling to do, to get rid of some idiots, though. I guess all new partys do.

SD is a mix of social conservatives (a lot of it from the brand known as fascism. Really, read the ideals of SD and compare to the old facist movements), immigration sceptics and outright racists. For the voters, add a large dose of people who feel malcontent with the other parties. That one gets a big boost by the outright bullying of SD from the rest of the political parties.

It's worth pointing out that SD originated from more or less outright nazi parties (more that 20 years ago though), so that undertone of rascism has always been there. Been calling themselves social conservative since 2011.

BTW, how are you familiar about the hospital story Kadagar? Did your draft in Boden or?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I can accept some fee-paying, like $20 for a GP appointment, but government-mandated and taxpayer-provided goes out of the window when you are actually seriously ill, then get loaded with a $150,000 bill for Chemotherapy.

Seen too many fundraising for loved ones for people in America, and it is rather heartbreaking to hear about them, stories such as people staying outside the hospital in a tent, to reduce costs and how charity-aid clinics are overcrowded with Americans who haven't been treated for years with ailments because of the costs. Other times, people opting to die due to preventable illnesses because of the costs.

Sure, I have heard the apologists too "lol, rich people from your country come to America, we have the best healthcare", they fail to miss the point that it has the best healthcare if you can actually afford it, you know, the 1% and not the 99% of the rest.

I just think that we are at a crossroads. Unfortunately, rather than picking a road to follow, we are standing in the middle trying to find a way to head across the hedges between the two roads. I fear we will still be standing there when a semi arrives from behind unannounced.

Road One: Fee-for-service/private insurance with little or no govt. mandates. Care for privileged = fantastic; care for most = good to very good; lowest 10-20% care = usually none, good or better when charity efforts allow.

Road Two: government-managed free at point of service. Care for privileged = fantastic, though often at higher cost than before since they are using private care instead of the public care that is already paid for via tax; care for most = good, though increased wait times and experimental/cutting edge treatments largely unavailable ; lowest 10-20% care = the same as for 'care for most.'

Currently, we are splitting the difference with a somewhat publicly funded safety net service for segments of our society; private insurance that must conform to government mandates and cannot be crafted to individual needs; fee-for-service charges over and above the portion covered by insurance; loads of forms, regulations, and duplicated records etc.

There are advantages to either road....so of course the USA is ignoring both and going cross-country in a Ford Fusion.

[Kadagar_AV]

SD is a mix of social conservatives (a lot of it from the brand known as fascism. Really, read the ideals of SD and compare to the old facist movements), immigration sceptics and outright racists. For the voters, add a large dose of people who feel malcontent with the other parties. That one gets a big boost by the outright bullying of SD from the rest of the political parties.

It's worth pointing out that SD originated from more or less outright nazi parties (more that 20 years ago though), so that undertone of rascism has always been there. Been calling themselves social conservative since 2011.

BTW, how are you familiar about the hospital story Kadagar? Did your draft in Boden or?

Please read the ideals and show me what is fascist or racist? Seems like you followed leftist media rather than making your own educated opinion.

To blame SD for being racist is like blaming leftists of being Stalinists... At the end of the day, it doesnt matter one effin thing what individuals in the party thinks, as long as the partys politics is OK... Am I wrong?

I did my army service at K4 Arvidsjaur (An Arctic Ranger is never cold... He is shaking of happiness!!)... The Swedish part of my family however originate from Luleå and Boden. I still whistle in instead of saying yes :2thumbsup:

[Ironside]

Please read the ideals and show me what is fascist or racist? Seems like you followed leftist media rather than making your own educated opinion.

To blame SD for being racist is like blaming leftists of being Stalinists... At the end of the day, it doesnt matter one effin thing what individuals in the party thinks, as long as the partys politics is OK... Am I wrong?

I did my army service at K4 Arvidsjaur (An Arctic Ranger is never cold... He is shaking of happiness!!)... The Swedish part of my family however originate from Luleå and Boden. I still whistle in instead of saying yes :2thumbsup:

I'll go with this list.
Comments are taken mostly from I've red from that 48 pages SVERIGEDEMOKRATERNAS PRINCIPPROGRAM 2011. Some points are taken from "vår politik" on the different subjects. I concluded it from earlier party manifests (Jimmy Åkesson was still the party leader at the time), where it was more obvious. They're improving on writing those kind of documents.
1.The idea of class and the importance of agrarianism. - Storsatsning på svensk matproduktion och matkultur. +1
2.Private ownership (score), the circulation of money (independent sek, score), the regulation of the economy by the state (some, but private interests are strongly defended, score), the idea of ethnic bourgeois class, economic self-sufficiency (not that pushing here). +1
3.The nation and the difference between nation and state. Do I need to explain this one? ++1
4.The attitude towards democracy and political parties. Tolerant about this one. 0
5.The importance of political heroes, i.e. the charismatic leader. Doesn't talk about it and doesn't seem to be influencial. 0
6.The attitude towards Tradition. Very important, increased funding. +1
7.The attitude towards the individual and society. Civil duty is considered very important and should be expanded. +1
8.The attitude towards equality and hierarchy. A lot of "equal, but different" attitude. The strong should help the weak (as long as the weak got valid reasons for being wweak) +0,5
9.The attitude towards women. antiabortion and antifeminists. Men and women are born different and that's the way it should be. If (by some miracle) they behave the same in some field, SD won't oppose it. +0,5.
10.The attitude towards religion. Free religion. Christianity got special status, due to historical ties. Don't like muslims. +0,5
11.The attitude towards rationalism. I couldn't dig deep enough on this to be certain on the meaning. IIRC the nazis weren't big on that, but more on feelings, and SD doesn't have that claim, so 0. They claim to be realists, rather than ideologues.
12.The attitude towards intellectualism and elitism. They don't talk about it, gives vibes of being anti intellectuals, but not enough to give a score either way. 0 13.The attitude towards the Third World. Also one I can't dig out definitions. 0


Yes, you will have overlap with other ideologies and I suspect fascism incorperated a lot from social conservatism, but when the media guys talks about SD being (democratic) facists aren't talking about racism. Anybody calling them nazis is shooting quite a bit from the goal though. Both being big on animal rights is amusing though (SD want's a special animal rights police, so it's quite serious). I think that's a side effect of some joint value. Probably related to revitalisation of the agricultural sector as well.

Another listing.

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Oh yes. +1

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Not in power, but not using that one in rethorics. 0

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Partly. People without Swedish values are a threat to national unity. +0,5

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Yes. Draft going back, and everyone makes some kind of civic duty. +1

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

By Swedish standards, yes. Gay adoption is a big nono. Biological mother and father is the way to go, as much as possible. +1

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Not in power. 0. The conspiracyish parts of the party would do it, if in power.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Sometimes. The most controversial campaign messages plays on fear of the stranger. Officially, assimilation is the prefered method. +0,5

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed
to the government's policies or actions.

Eh. I don't remember them using christian rethoric. Christianity got to have a special status though. +0,5

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Not in power. They're pro corperations though. 0

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

Not in power. Not in rethoric. 0

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

Not in power. Does have the tone of being the realistic party of the people against the ideological intellectuals. Art is judged, Swedish art that's constructive, is most worthy of preservation. +0,5

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Not in power. They're tough on crimes. Increase the punishments and don't toddle with the criminals. +0,5

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Not in power. Doesn't have rethoric that would lead into Cronyism and Corruption. 0

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Not in power. Aren't trying to fraud either. 0

I'm from Luleå, so I'm familiar with the hospital. I didn't follow the politics around it, was too young.

[HoreTore]

Sorry Ironside, but the crapalert is ringing in full volume on your last source.

It is not a quality source, it's a simple circulated chain-email written by some random dude in the US to attack Bush. "Dr Lawrence Britt" is not a doctor, nor called "Lawrence Britt".

Look up Roger Griffin for a definition of fascism, and Carl Joachim Freidrich and Zbigniew Brzezinski for totalitarianism(which SD also qualifies for).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Sorry Ironside, but the crapalert is ringing in full volume on your last source.

It is not a quality source, it's a simple circulated chain-email written by some random dude in the US to attack Bush. "Dr Lawrence Britt" is not a doctor, nor called "Lawrence Britt".

Look up Roger Griffin for a definition of fascism, and Carl Joachim Freidrich and Zbigniew Brzezinski for totalitarianism(which SD also qualifies for).

Oh, Ironside, be certain to check out Zbig's daughter. Lass may be a thorough-going leftie, but she is quite easy on the eyes.

And smart, and accomplished, etc. for those who bother about such things.

[Fragony]

From my own semi-Sweden http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2014/09/video_lichtgetintiers_slaan_me.html#comments

And gutmensch is still very correctly puzzled why the Freedom Party of our flaming Mozart is bigger than the coalition combined (in the ratings)

Here's why, just another day in multiculture

No you borderline retarded inbred goatherders, our girls are not interested in you, marry your niece, just like your cousin. Or join IS.

[Kadagar_AV]

It's hillarious on facebook...

People are reacting as if the Nazi Party got majority of the votes... Not as if a Social Conservative Party got 13% of the votes... Idiots.

Anyway, things like "If you vote SD remove me as friend" is popping up everywhere. I view it as a pure intelligence test, culling FB of illiterates.

[HoreTore]

Oh, Ironside, be certain to check out Zbig's daughter. Lass may be a thorough-going leftie, but she is quite easy on the eyes.

And smart, and accomplished, etc. for those who bother about such things.

Lefties put out.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Lefties put out.

So do "righties." Moreover, with all the guilt, they cut loose with a lot of verve.


NOTHING was wilder than the Mormon girls who "strayed off the reservation" back in high school.

[Fragony]

It's hillarious on facebook...

People are reacting as if the Nazi Party got majority of the votes... Not as if a Social Conservative Party got 13% of the votes... Idiots.

Anyway, things like "If you vote SD remove me as friend" is popping up everywhere. I view it as a pure intelligence test, culling FB of illiterates.

They may call themselve social conservatives, but how should social conservatism be interpreted really. It's a very loose term that gives no clarity on anything. Are we talking about immigration policies or outright racism, if I got to draw a line I want to know where I should draw it.

[HoreTore]

So do "righties." Moreover, with all the guilt, they cut loose with a lot of verve.


NOTHING was wilder than the Mormon girls who "strayed off the reservation" back in high school.

Preists daughters are well-known sluts, but the key is the rebellion. "strayed off the reservation", as you put it.

Being a leftie is basically a rebellion in itself, thus......

[HoreTore]

They may call themselve social conservatives, but how should social conservatism be interpreted really. It's a very loose term that gives no clarity on anything. Are we talking about immigration policies or outright racism, if I got to draw a line I want to know where I should draw it.

"Social conservatism" is one of those obscure terms without any real meaning to it. Terms like "socialist", "liberal" and "conservative" have actual meaning. Social conservatism has no definition or meaning. Islamists are social conservatives, for example. Does that mean SD is an islamist party?

[Kagemusha]

History just keeps repeating itself.

Once enough time of relative prosperous times have past. Individualism becomes stronger then collectivity. Society starts to become more and more divided, while economically upper and lower classes become larger on the expense of middle class. Such is fertile soil for populist movements in politics. Next steps are social unrest,civil war, non democratic governments and ultimately war between states and maybe even world war.

But looking at the bright side it will be all good afterwards, when everything have been blown to shite and the survivors need to rebuild everything.. At least until the cycle starts again.:shrug:

[Kadagar_AV]

History just keeps repeating itself.

Once enough time of relative prosperous times have past. Individualism becomes stronger then collectivity. Society starts to become more and more divided, while economically upper and lower classes become larger on the expense of middle class. Such is fertile soil for populist movements in politics. Next steps are social unrest,civil war, non democratic governments and ultimately war between states and maybe even world war.

But looking at the bright side it will be all good afterwards, when everything have been blown to shite and the survivors need to rebuild everything.. At least until the cycle starts again.:shrug:

Do you often get told you have a negative world view :inquisitive:

[Kagemusha]

Do you often get told you have a negative world view :inquisitive:

Its called experience.~;)

[Kadagar_AV]

Frags, Social Conservatism makes sense in Sweden...

"Conservative" in this case it has another meaning than in most other nations, as this is grounded in a socialistic welfare state, whereas international conservatism tends to be on the right side of the political spectrum.

As I said, they basically thought Sweden used to have something good going for us, and they don't think todays society is an improvement. I can only agree.

And, it's not just "It used to be better", hard cold facts show that it indeed used to be better. Sweden has real ghettos and even illegal gypsy camps all over these days. Not really a step in the right direction.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So both the Swede conservatives and the US conservatives want to dial things back to the early 80s......interesting concept that.

[Ironside]

Sorry Ironside, but the crapalert is ringing in full volume on your last source.

It is not a quality source, it's a simple circulated chain-email written by some random dude in the US to attack Bush. "Dr Lawrence Britt" is not a doctor, nor called "Lawrence Britt".

Look up Roger Griffin for a definition of fascism, and Carl Joachim Freidrich and Zbigniew Brzezinski for totalitarianism(which SD also qualifies for).

Bleh, downsides of simply going by the short lists from the net quickly and the lack of books and good lists (the other is from wiki, but going after the guy didn't produce an explaination on the list with a quick search). Explains the weak list though (much of it being generally totalitarian and not possible to apply to parties not in power). I'll add from memorary and the excerpt I could read for Griffin, the tendency by SD and fascists of wanting to go to a golden past by going radically forward. Basically, it's yarning for the golden past, while if you implemented the policies your society would be very different from the past you yarn for (revolutionary conservative instead of normal conservvative).

Basically I took the second list to point out the militarism and nationalism that are present in the party.


They may call themselve social conservatives, but how should social conservatism be interpreted really. It's a very loose term that gives no clarity on anything. Are we talking about immigration policies or outright racism, if I got to draw a line I want to know where I should draw it.

It means conservatives with a heart (caring about the poor etc, in a specific way, to differ themselves from normal conservatives).

The big thing with SD on immigration is that their official policy is very different from their undertone, that goes very high into the party. We got the "järnrörsskandalen" or iron pipe scandal in 2012. Short version, media got a hold of a mobile video of people in the party top made in 2010. It contains calling a foreign woman "little whore" in her face and arming themselves with iron pipes to get back on an aggressive drunk (cops got called on him and he got arrested, so he was really that. That said, I think it's the guy holding his arms up in the video so...). (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPycz-tsrDM) It also contains the arrest, since they were around and dropped the iron pipes when the cops showed up. Can be worth noticing that the drunk says that he got aggressive because they punshed a woman. Not in this video, but on the full tape.

In case you Americans wonder how high that are, picture Eric Holder and Jack Lew doing the same thing.
Party support didn't drop. Because everyone voting for them already knew that they're racist.

It's worth remembering that due to coalition goverments, you can vote for the crazies to push for issues, while running terrified away if the same party would get more than 50%.


So both the Swede conservatives and the US conservatives want to dial things back to the early 80s......interesting concept that.

Same mentality. People being people is the reason why left and right has a competition in every country. Even while being total lefties by US standard, the left and right in Sweden does compete, instead of the lefties running with say 70% of the votes on an average election. Priority of values stays the same, what changes is how those values manifest (SD is writing a lot on how obvious it is that women and men are different, while being totally ok with women and men competing in the same fields and if they would be equal in the same field it's ok. It's very obvious that the same ideals 1950 would be claiming that housewives it's totally natural and the way it should be and working women are strange things that upset the way things should be).

[Kadagar_AV]

The big thing with SD on immigration is that their official policy is very different from their undertone

This is the main problem in Sweden as of today. People don't care about SDs actual political agenda, they just go by how mass media portray them.

Ironside, it doesn't matter one flying **** what individual people in a party thinks. What you vote for is the politics they run. You like many other swedes seem to have lost this point completely.

Please read up on what politics they want to run. Read up on how they voted these last four years in parliament. Read up on their budget proposal.

I find it absolutely flaming retarded to go by public opinion or mass media, when it comes to political partys.

To once every four years actually read up on the different political options is in my opinion a damn minimum, if you want to even pretend you are a democratic citizen.

YES, SD is a new party, and as every new party have their fair share of idiots. It takes some time to sort it, specially when the party almost triple their voting and parliament base per election the last 8-12 years.

Secondly, swedish mass media portray them as somewhere more nazi than Hitler. OF COURSE the wrong people go there, regardless of the actual politics.

Read up on SD and come back and explain what is wrong?

Are they "militarists" because they want to strengthen the swedish defense forces. I hope you HAVE noticed how the Russian bear is growling as of now.

The last time Russian jets violated swedish airspace was when? Oh right, TODAY!!

I see it as a strength of SD to already in 2010 arguing for a shape up of the swedish defensive forces. Specially since EVERY other party dropped the ball completely.

What you call militaristic is what I call damn common sense.

[Ironside]

This is the main problem in Sweden as of today. People don't care about SDs actual political agenda, they just go by how mass media portray them.

Ironside, it doesn't matter one flying **** what individual people in a party thinks. What you vote for is the politics they run. You like many other swedes seem to have lost this point completely.

It depends. If the actual opinion by the politician differ too much from the official policy they are supposed to keep, then we can suspect that they won't do their job properly. I would not think that Ulla Andersson (v) would make a good job as an economic minister for the Alliance for example. That's one of the main reason's why Cecilia Stegö Chilò had to resign.


YES, SD is a new party, and as every new party have their fair share of idiots. It takes some time to sort it, specially when the party almost triple their voting and parliament base per election the last 8-12 years.

Secondly, swedish mass media portray them as somewhere more nazi than Hitler. OF COURSE the wrong people go there, regardless of the actual politics.

Uh, those people joined the party before Jimmie Åkesson got the party leader post. It's the wrong end to complain. They're "legacy people from our party's racist past", but with our later policy changes, they no longer have a place. And we'll keep the profile of keeping Sweden Swedish, but I'm sure that's it's only the evil media propaganda that makes our immigration skeptic party that want to keep Sweden Swedish attract racists.

The strong community aspect of Facism and social conservatives are a major part of their appeal, but the way they say what constitutes a community makes them prone to be hostile to persieved threats to this community. That means that they're prone to be hostile towards foreigners and people acting "out of gender", for example.


Read up on SD and come back and explain what is wrong?

Are they "militarists" because they want to strengthen the swedish defense forces. I hope you HAVE noticed how the Russian bear is growling as of now.

The last time Russian jets violated swedish airspace was when? Oh right, TODAY!!

I see it as a strength of SD to already in 2010 arguing for a shape up of the swedish defensive forces. Specially since EVERY other party dropped the ball completely.

What you call militaristic is what I call damn common sense.

Ahem.
Den som åtnjuter ett lands frihet skall också vara beredd att försvara denna frihet. Sverigedemokraterna menar att en allmän värnplikt, utöver att bidra till att stärka landets totala försvarskapacitet, fyller en viktig fostrande och social funktion. För kvinnor och icke vapenföra män skall allmän tjänsteplikt i krig gälla. Kvinnor skall dock på frivillig basis kunna delta även i den väpnade delen av försvaret.

That's a stronger draft than during the cold war. It's not the only party toying with making the draft into a civic duty and a place to grow up into adulthood, but that's also what a facist party would approve of. Not a proof by itself, but that's why you have focus on the whole.

[Fragony]

Frags, Social Conservatism makes sense in Sweden...

"Conservative" in this case it has another meaning than in most other nations, as this is grounded in a socialistic welfare state, whereas international conservatism tends to be on the right side of the political spectrum.

As I said, they basically thought Sweden used to have something good going for us, and they don't think todays society is an improvement. I can only agree.

And, it's not just "It used to be better", hard cold facts show that it indeed used to be better. Sweden has real ghettos and even illegal gypsy camps all over these days. Not really a step in the right direction.

Oh I can only agree, don't get me wrong, Sweden's problems should never have existed in the first place, never ever let people who don't question if they are right or not play with buttons. Leftist idiots made quite a mess while clawing out the eyes of everything that doesn't make them all warm inside. Soooooo good, a nation ruled by Stephard wives. But from the looks of it Social Conservatism is more Ethnic Conservatism, you are free to hit me in the face if I got that wrong. The multicultural doctrine is incredibly rediculous and those that willclaw out your eyes if you don't share their cravings are total idiots. SD doesn't sound like anything I can like though, just kinda wary.

[Paltmull]

YES, SD is a new party, and as every new party have their fair share of idiots. It takes some time to sort it, specially when the party almost triple their voting and parliament base per election the last 8-12 years.

Secondly, swedish mass media portray them as somewhere more nazi than Hitler. OF COURSE the wrong people go there, regardless of the actual politics.
Uh, those people joined the party before Jimmie Åkesson got the party leader post. It's the wrong end to complain. They're "legacy people from our party's racist past", but with our later policy changes, they no longer have a place. And we'll keep the profile of keeping Sweden Swedish, but I'm sure that's it's only the evil media propaganda that makes our immigration skeptic party that want to keep Sweden Swedish attract racists.


This! If I was a socially conservative person who was sceptical of high immigration and wanted to make a change, then I would start a new party or organization. I certainly wouldn't join a racist party with ties to fascism and white-power ideology and then try to gently reform it to social conservatism; Because that wouldn't make any sense.

I mean, they had to ban nazi uniforms at meetings in 1996 for God's sake.

Oh, and as a treat, here's a lovely little article on LGBT and the Pride movement (http://web.archive.org/web/20071109002951/http://www.sdkuriren.se/blog/index.php/soder/2007/08/01/botten_maste_snart_vara_nadd) written by Björn Söder - who is party secretary and a member of parliament - published in SD-kuriren ("the Sweden Democrats courier") in 2007. It's in Swedish, but google translates it to English pretty well. Apparently the party's so called zero-tolerance doesn't stretch to homophobia. The article caused quite an outrage back then, but I suppose it's been forgotten. Read the article! It's not long.

EDIT: I should also add that Anton Hysén, who is the son of the ex- football player that Söder criticizes for speaking at the "perverted homosexual event Stockholm Pride", later became one of the first football players to come out as gay in Sweden.

/End of rant

[Fragony]

Starting a new party would make a lot more sense indeed. Same with the likes of Front-National. Can't just wash away the stench.

[Kadagar_AV]

This! If I was a socially conservative person who was sceptical of high immigration and wanted to make a change, then I would start a new party or organization. I certainly wouldn't join a racist party with ties to fascism and white-power ideology and then try to gently reform it to social conservatism; Because that wouldn't make any sense.

I mean, they had to ban nazi uniforms at meetings in 1996 for God's sake.

Oh, and as a treat, here's a lovely little article on LGBT and the Pride movement (http://web.archive.org/web/20071109002951/http://www.sdkuriren.se/blog/index.php/soder/2007/08/01/botten_maste_snart_vara_nadd) written by Björn Söder - who is party secretary and a member of parliament - published in SD-kuriren ("the Sweden Democrats courier") in 2007. It's in Swedish, but google translates it to English pretty well. Apparently the party's so called zero-tolerance doesn't stretch to homophobia. The article caused quite an outrage back then, but I suppose it's been forgotten. Read the article! It's not long.

EDIT: I should also add that Anton Hysén, who is the son of the ex- football player that Söder criticizes for speaking at the "perverted homosexual event Stockholm Pride", later became one of the first football players to come out as gay in Sweden.

/End of rant


Yeah well, you are intelligent enough to understand that individual persons have little or nothing to do with a political partys agenda, right?

I think he is a flaming idiot, as I am about as pro-homo it's possible to be.

So, SD as a party do not agree with that stance. Also, SD represents a few other stances that I fully agree with, that few or no other party run.


* Make an animal police force, as animals today have little or no protection from abusive owners (as dog owner this is a question close to my heart.

* We should keep and expand our nuclear plants, instead of buying energy from Germany, who base it on coal plants (everyone who played Sim City knows nuclear plant > coal plant).

* After having among the worlds most open immigration policys, we should limit it to EUs recomendation levels... Like pretty much every other country in the vicinity. We should also focus on the immigrants we already have... Much more than now, at least. To wreck our economy helps no one in the long run, if we want to be able to keep being an open and accepting entity in the world.

* We should strengthen our military, specially now with the Russia Bear slowly waking up from it's slumber...

* We should spend more money on helping the vast amount of refugees where they are, instead of taking them to Sweden. This because we can help millions for the same price as taking 50.000 here. We can spend our resources more efficiently than now, and with 50 million refugees in the world, we have to work on broad solutions.

* They want to have a discussion about what week abortion is still an option, as modern healthcare now can save a baby MUCH earlier than when the laws were written, and we need some distance between "abortion" and "murder".



What party would I vote for, except SD? I don't agree with them in all questions, but a lot of the questions I find important. Any other party is miiiiiiiiiiiiiles away politically... So I am more or less forced to go with SD.

And no, I don't feel like starting a new party... Specially when there already in one I can accept in government position already.


Your claims about nazism and racism... SD have done a LOT the last 15-20 years to turn the party from nationalistic to social conservative. It wasn't even a week ago they kicked 15 politicians for racist remarks, to name just one example.

To say they forbade nazi uniforms doesn't mean the party is nazi, it means the party doesnt accept nazism. You really are reading everything in a dark way.

That isn't strange at all though, as mass media in Sweden more or less brainwash people (and the majority think media is objective, LOL).

[Fragony]

Yeah well, you are intelligent enough to understand that individual persons have little or nothing to do with a political partys agenda, right?

I think he is a flaming idiot, as I am about as pro-homo it's possible to be.

So, SD as a party do not agree with that stance. Also, SD represents a few other stances that I fully agree with, that few or no other party run.


* Make an animal police force, as animals today have little or no protection from abusive owners (as dog owner this is a question close to my heart.

* We should keep and expand our nuclear plants, instead of buying energy from Germany, who base it on coal plants (everyone who played Sim City knows nuclear plant > coal plant).

* After having among the worlds most open immigration policys, we should limit it to EUs recomendation levels... Like pretty much every other country in the vicinity. We should also focus on the immigrants we already have... Much more than now, at least. To wreck our economy helps no one in the long run, if we want to be able to keep being an open and accepting entity in the world.

* We should strengthen our military, specially now with the Russia Bear slowly waking up from it's slumber...

* We should spend more money on helping the vast amount of refugees where they are, instead of taking them to Sweden. This because we can help millions for the same price as taking 50.000 here. We can spend our resources more efficiently than now, and with 50 million refugees in the world, we have to work on broad solutions.

* They want to have a discussion about what week abortion is still an option, as modern healthcare now can save a baby MUCH earlier than when the laws were written, and we need some distance between "abortion" and "murder".



What party would I vote for, except SD? I don't agree with them in all questions, but a lot of the questions I find important. Any other party is miiiiiiiiiiiiiles away politically... So I am more or less forced to go with SD.

And no, I don't feel like starting a new party... Specially when there already in one I can accept in government position already.


Your claims about nazism and racism... SD have done a LOT the last 15-20 years to turn the party from nationalistic to social conservative. It wasn't even a week ago they kicked 15 politicians for racist remarks, to name just one example.

To say they forbade nazi uniforms doesn't mean the party is nazi, it means the party doesnt accept nazism. You really are reading everything in a dark way.

That isn't strange at all though, as mass media in Sweden more or less brainwash people (and the majority think media is objective, LOL).

All very sensible points that I would back in an instant if I was Swedish, no question there. What other party, the one that could gain from being reasonable on all that without it's past holding them down? Sweden needs a new party that is without a past, that is without questionable members. Maybe some social hygiene within the ranks of the social conservatism ain't such a bad idea, I am not convinced that it's not a racist party, starting a new party that is only reasonable about things the (multicultural/enviromental/facist) left is unreasonable about makes total sense to me. Clean sheet.

[Paltmull]

Yeah well, you are intelligent enough to understand that individual persons have little or nothing to do with a political partys agenda, right?

I think he is a flaming idiot, as I am about as pro-homo it's possible to be.

[...]

What party would I vote for, except SD? I don't agree with them in all questions, but a lot of the questions I find important. Any other party is miiiiiiiiiiiiiles away politically... So I am more or less forced to go with SD.


How far are you prepared to take the idea that individual members have nothing to do with a party's agenda? If Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler were to join SD (yes, I just made a Hitler reference), would you still vote for them as long as you agreed with their official agenda? Björn Söder isn't some village idiot from some small town council, he is in a high position in the party and a member of parliament. We could bring up Kenth Ekeroth as well, who held the camera in the aforementioned "iron pipe" video. He too is a parliament member and holds a high position in the party (even though the iron pipe thing damaged that position). Ekeroth is heavily involved in the racist hate site Avpixlat as a financial funder. Parts of the SD internet fanbase are infamous for threatening journalists and bloggers, who openly criticize the party, with murder, rape (if they're women) and so on. Yet this man is allowed to continue.



And no, I don't feel like starting a new party... Specially when there already in one I can accept in government position already.


Your claims about nazism and racism... SD have done a LOT the last 15-20 years to turn the party from nationalistic to social conservative. It wasn't even a week ago they kicked 15 politicians for racist remarks, to name just one example.

To say they forbade nazi uniforms doesn't mean the party is nazi, it means the party doesnt accept nazism. You really are reading everything in a dark way.


I'm not saying that you should start a new party, I'm saying that Jimmie Åkesson and his merry band of reformers should have done so. It doesn't make sense to me that you would join a party that heavily disagreed with many of your opinions only to try and reform it. I think it's obvious that the earlier policies and strategies simply weren't viable for gaining public support and that reform work started for that reason.



That isn't strange at all though, as mass media in Sweden more or less brainwash people (and the majority think media is objective, LOL).

I'm going to ignore that.

[Fragony]

Huh

Edit,huh was about me not knowing how I posted it here

[Kadagar_AV]

Paltmull, I am going to try to be very clear, as your post show very little intellectual sense.

First of all, it again doesn't matter one flying **** what individuals in a party do or think, as long as the party have a good political agenda and follow this agenda when they vote. Are you democratically schooled enough to understand this point?

I guess not, as you then go on and accuse the party for what ANONYMOUS PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET think and do. This is possibly the most senseless and absolutely most stupid line of reasoning I have met this side of 2014.

Specially since this last election clearly showed that the troublemakers was leftists, not SD supporters. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

That you went with a Hitler reference to describe a party that want to lower immigration to EU's recommendation levels, as pretty much every country around us and in Europe... Is so laughably illiterate that I don't know where to begin. I just declare Godwin and move on.

No really, that was a shameful argument.


Why should I or anyone else start a new party, when we already have a fully functioning one? It's SWEDENS THIRD BIGGEST PARTY.

I say it again, out of EIGHT government partys this is the THIRD largest, by a very good margin at that. To write so many Swedes off as nazi supporters and hateful people is intellectually dishonest, to say the least.


You are "ignoring" when I wrote that the mainstream media more or less hide the reality around immigration for ideological reasons?

Everyone doesnt' agree with you, this is an example (http://www.svd.se/opinion/brannpunkt/senaste-debattartiklarna-om-invandring_3944884.svd?sidan=2)

[HoreTore]

Elin Ørjasæter used as a source.

For anything.


Hilarious.

[Kadagar_AV]

Elin Ørjasæter used as a source.

For anything.


Hilarious.

I read anything who source to standards. There are plenty of more articles. I just wanted to start out soft with Paltmull, as I fear he would TILT ERROR if overwhelmed.

[Paltmull]

Kadagar_AV, oh wow...

First of all: I know the Hitler reference was terrible, but you seem to completely have missed the argument I was making. I was not comparing SD to Hitler, I was trying to show the absurdity about you voting for a party no matter what individuals are in the party or what their opinions are as long as they follow the party line. Second: I did not accuse SD for what anonymos people on the internet think and do, but I did accuse them for having a high ranking member who is heavily involved in a racist hate site.

Third: Jesus Christ, I've been trying to make the point about starting a new party twice now and you still don't seem to get it. Fragony, who is usually with you on these issues, gets it. Why can't you? I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT YOU OR ANYONE SHOULD START A NEW PARTY NOW!!!!!!!!! I'M QUESTIONING THE FACT THAT JIMMIE ÅKESSON AND OTHERS DIDN'T DO THAT ORIGINALLY. Was SD the third biggest party when Jimmie joined it back in '95? NO OF COURSE NOT, they were a bunch of fascists that he reformed to become the third biggest party in Sweden. Why should I, or anyone, trust someone like that?

I'm ignoring you calling me brainwashed. You tend to do those things whenever I enter a discussion, and it's quite tiresome.

[Kadagar_AV]

Someone got his panties in a twist...

I'll return when something sensible is written, or I have more ****ing care to give than now.

[Kadagar_AV]

I'll just throw in a source more close to Paltmulls ideological reasoning...

This from Swedens premiere leftist magazine, about Swedens probably best known journalist: WHO OPENLY CLAIM SWEDISH MEDIA IS NOT OBJECTIVE AT ALL WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION.

He is even calling it the swedish journalists greatest betrayal. As people who are for multiculturalism goes unquestioned, while anyone questioning it are = racist.

Good, we got that settled then?

It's fun how even the leftist moronic media start to have their back against the wall.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/debatt/article12043473.ab

[HoreTore]

For the non-swedes who might be wondering just what organization SD grew out of, here's a picture of the group Jimmie Åkesson joined back in the 90's:

http://interasistmen.se/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/1an.jpg

Totally not fascist. Not in any way at all.

IT'S THE LIBERAL MEDIA I TELL YOU

[Fragony]

I'll just throw in a source more close to Paltmulls ideological reasoning...

This from Swedens premiere leftist magazine, about Swedens probably best known journalist: WHO OPENLY CLAIM SWEDISH MEDIA IS NOT OBJECTIVE AT ALL WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION.

He is even calling it the swedish journalists greatest betrayal. As people who are for multiculturalism goes unquestioned, while anyone questioning it are = racist.

Good, we got that settled then?

It's fun how even the leftist moronic media start to have their back against the wall.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/debatt/article12043473.ab

Nobody says it better. http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/2014/09/heerlijk_pat_condell_sloopt_br.html#comments

I don't like the SD mind you, but I toally share his contempt.

[Kadagar_AV]

I hate to debate with people like HT, but when unwanted people forcibly join a thread in dramatic ways, even when being kindly and not so kindly told to, well, **** off as the political extremists they are...

1. Where is Jimmie Åkesson in that picture?

2. How are those guys representative of the party 2014?

3. I see 7 people in that picture. SD just got around ONE MILLION AND A HUNDRED AND SEVENTY THOUSAND PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR THEM, out of a 9 million population... That roughly make out 1/8 Swedes. Are they on the picture?



Directed to everyone else: This is why I no longer comment on HoreTores threads or comments. I just use this an example. I generally dislike people who are jumping on a bandwagon, specially if it's populist where they come from.

It's so easy for people to get ideologically impaired, specially when one have a protected life.

HT as an example, is living in Norway... As they got oil, they are way richer than Sweden. They also accept around 1/10th of the immigrants Sweden do.

Yet, people like this have the stomach to tell people living in another world entirely, that they are racist... And showing a picture of 7 people to explain why.

This much resembles Marie Antoinette, who more or less started the French Revolution by comments like "If the people don't have bread, why don't they eat pastry?"


Whenever I loathe to comment on whatever this Norwegian is saying, I just link to this post instead of answering.

It's not only intellectually dishonest, it's a complete disgrace to compare others problems from a piedestal.

Sweden already some years ago had 150 areas that were ghettos. Where basic community functions just didn't work. Heck, we have police cars having to escort the fire and ambulance, as they otherwise wont go on because of attacks.

Heck, we have Swedish POLICE cars who wont go in, unless they are protected by another damn police car. HT has nothing of this where he comes from. The very idea is distant to him.

I however was both grown up, went to school, and worked in such ghettos. I feel totally isolated from mainstream media, claiming such people like me and the soccer mom who just had her son home for the third time, with his mobile phone stolen - Are = 7 idiots waving Swedish flags in the 90's.

An intellectual disgrace, if I ever seen one.

[HoreTore]

I hate to debate with people like HT, but when unwanted people forcibly join a thread in dramatic ways, even when being kindly and not so kindly told to, well, **** off as the political extremists they are...

lol, I started this thread Kad.

Kindly take thy PMS elsewhere.


1. Where is Jimmie Åkesson in that picture?

He's looking at the picture, thinking to himself that "this looks like a bunch of solid guys, I want to join them".

Clearly the mark of a true democrat. Only liberal, lying media will tell you otherwise.



This is like watching a former maoist trying to explain away his (former?) fervent support for autocratic regimes.


also, the pic has 8 guys in it. 9 if you count the head on the far left.

[Kadagar_AV]

lol, I started this thread Kad.

Kindly take thy PMS elsewhere.



He's looking at the picture, thinking to himself that "this looks like a bunch of solid guys, I want to join them".

Clearly the mark of a true democrat. Only liberal, lying media will tell you otherwise.



This is like watching a former maoist trying to explain away his (former?) fervent support for autocratic regimes.


also, the pic has 8 guys in it. 9 if you count the head on the far left.

It's some time of clock in Texas, and you are still as intellectually dishonest and as shaped by your own perceived world to respect or even understand others.

[HoreTore]

It's some time of clock in Texas, and you are still as intellectually dishonest and as shaped by your own perceived world to respect or even understand others.

Intellectual dishonesty, yes.... You are saying that I equate the 7 men in the picture with the average and/or majority of SD voters.

Why, hello there! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)


And you certainly grew up in west philly, chillin' with da gangstahs in da hood. How could I ever hope to attain your wisdom and hard-earned street-smarts?

Norway certainly got only a tenth of the immigration Sweden got. If, of course, by "a tenth" you actually mean "half" (http://www.ssb.no/befolkning/artikler-og-publikasjoner/innvandrere-i-norge-sverige-og-danmark). And coincidentally, Norways population is half of Swedens... But carry on with your hyperbole, don't let actual facts get in your way.

[Paltmull]

Someone got his panties in a twist...


I'm going to stop arguing with this person now. Any appropriate reply to that last quote is going to get removed by admins anyway. I just have to reply to this last thing, as what he says about the newspaper (Aftonbladet) isn't true:


I'll just throw in a source more close to Paltmulls ideological reasoning...

This from Swedens premiere leftist magazine, about Swedens probably best known journalist: WHO OPENLY CLAIM SWEDISH MEDIA IS NOT OBJECTIVE AT ALL WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION.

He is even calling it the swedish journalists greatest betrayal. As people who are for multiculturalism goes unquestioned, while anyone questioning it are = racist.

Good, we got that settled then?

It's fun how even the leftist moronic media start to have their back against the wall.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/debatt/article12043473.ab


The debate article that Kadagar linked is indeed published by Aftonbladet, but not written by them. If Kadagar had bothered to actually look at it, rather than just having it confirm his views, he would have seen that it is written by a Anna Olehäll who is a member of the Liberal Party (I'm not even sure if she's a politician; she seems to be pretty much unknown). Aftonbladet has published debate articles written by Jimmie Åkesson and others they oppose as well.

[Kadagar_AV]

HT, I really don't like talking to you, as I vehemently dislike you as a person. Not your political views or anything, but you as a person.

I'd love to debate with anyone about this, but you.

You can give other people arguments, and I will address them. But I long since have had enough of you. You are not only intellectually dishonest, you are a disgrace to his forum, not to mention humanity.

[Kadagar_AV]

I'm going to stop arguing with this person now. Any appropriate reply to that last quote is going to get removed by admins anyway. I just have to reply to this last thing, as what he says about the newspaper (Aftonbladet) isn't true:


The debate article that Kadagar linked is indeed published by Aftonbladet, but not written by them. If Kadagar had bothered to actually look at it, rather than just having it confirm his views, he would have seen that it is written by a Anna Olehäll who is a member of the Liberal Party (I'm not even sure if she's a politician; she seems to be pretty much unknown). Aftonbladet has published debate articles written by Jimmie Åkesson and others they oppose as well.

Sooo. Published articles is no longer a valid source on what a published article say?

Read up on immigration, I can give you plenty of sources. Did you know that more than half of the immigrants born in Africa don't even qualify to Gymnasium (16-18years old in Sweden).

More than 1/4 African males don't qualify, even after having spent more than 10 years here?

To international readers, Gymnasium education is the very minimum you generally have here. It's often expected of even the most low status jobs.

Contrary to other countries, we accept people from the worlds worst hell holes. Other countries are more picky, we are not.

[Paltmull]

Sooo. Published articles is no longer a valid source on what a published article say?

??? I'm not sure what that means. I'm saying that Aftonbladet publishes debate articles from all sorts of people, including political opponents like Jimmie Åkesson and this person. It is not written by someone who works at Aftonbladet.

You were making a big thing of the fact that the article was published by "leftist media", that's all.

[HoreTore]

HT, I really don't like talking to you, as I vehemently dislike you as a person. Not your political views or anything, but you as a person.

I'd love to debate with anyone about this, but you.

You can give other people arguments, and I will address them. But I long since have had enough of you. You are not only intellectually dishonest, you are a disgrace to his forum, not to mention humanity.

Yeah, I understand it gets uncomfortable when you can't back up your wildly inaccurate "arguments".


And learn what a freakin' debate article is. Gawd. You learn the different genres in primary school.

[Kadagar_AV]

??? I'm not sure what that means. I'm saying that Aftonbladet publishes debate articles from all sorts of people, including political opponents like Jimmie Åkesson and this person. It is not written by someone who works at Aftonbladet.

And I was saying that even democratically hindered publishers such as AB have their back against the wall, to have to let other opinions in.

What about the Janne Josephsons thingy? Swedens probably best known journalist is clearly claiming that the bulk of mass media are completely dishonest. Is he also nazi?

This is the same guy who rooted out racism in all the political partys... Have he suddenly taken a turn to the Hitler side, or is it just so that the Swedish media landscape is in a horrible condition?

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah, I understand it gets uncomfortable when you can't back up your wildly inaccurate "arguments".

No, I just will not respond to you. Other people can pick up your claims and I will address them, as I said. But you are nothing I have any interest of debating. Again, you are the only person I dislike on this forum.

I like or respect or will listen to anyone else. But after all these years, I have come to the conclusion that you are just an extremely disagreeable person.

I don't mind facing your arguments. I just don't give a flying rats arse about YOU.

[HoreTore]

No, I just will not respond to you. Other people can pick up your claims and I will address them, as I said.

By "address them", do you refer to your standard practice of name-calling and throwing rubbish claims around?

And grow up.

[Paltmull]

And I was saying that even democratically hindered publishers such as AB have their back against the wall, to have to let other opinions in.


Or that's just their publishing policy? Liberal and conservative media publishes articles by left wing debaters all the time.


What about the Janne Josephsons thingy? Swedens probably best known journalist is clearly claiming that the bulk of mass media are completely dishonest. Is he also nazi?

This is the same guy who rooted out racism in all the political partys... Have he suddenly taken a turn to the Hitler side, or is it just so that the Swedish media landscape is in a horrible condition?

Those comments don't have anything to do with what I have written in this thread. Anyway, I'm out.

[Kadagar_AV]

Or that's just their publishing policy? Liberal and conservative media publishes articles by left wing debaters all the time.



Those comments don't have anything to do with what I have written in this thread. Anyway, I'm out.

Swedens most known reporter saying the media landscape is crazily ideologically driven pro-immigration is NOT relevant to what you and I wrote?

I disagree. There is something rotten here...

Luckily, I have an Austrian citizenship to fall back on, when things go bananas :)

[Beskar]

Luckily, I have an Austrian citizenship to fall back on, when things go bananas :)

They are pretty reknown for their ideological bent!