View Full Version : Are Byzantines too strong?
Orda Khan
11-19-2002, 03:35
I marched a unit of Turkish heavy janissary infantry into a unit of varangian guards, both were valour 3. The guards won and what are they? About half the cost? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Same thing with infantry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
This is rather perplexing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
.......Orda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
HopAlongBunny
11-19-2002, 03:42
I played a 10k custom game. Byz vs Turks
Turks had 3 v1 w1 a1 Jan heavy; and a mess of crossbow.
Byz. was all Byz inf, most with upgraded valour.
Checked the log files
Turks: 3 v2 w1 Janissary Heavvy; 7 crossbow
Byzantines 15 v1 Byzantine inf 1 v0 Byzantine inf
The Byzantines rushed and routed the crossbow right at the start; crossbow 71 kills total. The Janissaries held the field Attacked on all sides they cut the Byzantines apart. They logged some 700+ kills to the Byzantines (almost) 200.
Seems tha Janissaries are way too powerful to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
solypsist
11-19-2002, 05:43
in the SP campaign (which operates a bit differently than custom battle or MP) the Byz are one of the strongest factions in the early game, along with the Almohads and Egyptians, due to several things: early wealth, and better-than average troops for the time. But eventually the Euros catch up in hard-hitting units and armor, so those mentioned above begin to wane. If you're going to play the Byz, it's to your advantage to start an early game (IMHOP) than a later one.
Nobunaga0611
11-19-2002, 07:38
I don't think Byzantines are too powerful. Yeah they've got big units, and are easier to do well with. But I feel, especially in MP, the Jan. Heavy Infantry are not really good at all. They're alright....but definitely not worth the cost.
Rosacrux
11-19-2002, 12:34
as soly was so kind to mention, Byzantines rule the battlefield in the Early era (allthough they have one of the other two early-powerhouses - the Egyptians - nearby) and having a great wealth and all, can dominate the world pretty soon.
BUT holding on to those gainings (if you opt for GA) is another issue, as Byzantium is very weak in the Late era, compared to the Catholic factions and the Turks. The latter are not a problem (even a mediocre Byz. player should be able to wipe them out pretty early) but the Westeners are a major one. Post patch I noticed that the AI assimilates much better armies and upgrades its units vastly... so, after 1350 it's definitely NOT a walk in the park... Provided you hadn't conquered the whole world until then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
as i speak about MP, the byzant is too strong, coz the units are too cheap
thats the mainproblem, u can byu units like the orderfoot but u pay less for the same unit (its caleld byzinfantry)..
i dont agree that every faction ahve a big advance, maybe an advance by having a special unit, thats very nice
but if they have a unit wich is jsut called other but has same stats and better/cheaper than it isnt a special unit, its jsut an unbalanced situation....
k
yes Koc, but the Byz has not good spears, like for example the orders
MonkeyMan
11-19-2002, 14:37
the byzantines have hojo horded every early game i've had post patch. Which is fun cos i love to beat the crud out of their closely packed infantry and weak horses with my knights.
Orda Khan
11-19-2002, 14:39
Kocmoc is right they have low price units that can beat up higher priced ones http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
.....Orda
MonkeyMan
11-19-2002, 15:11
Not sure i agree, i just think that jan heavies are seriously underpowered in that comparison. I've had my janissary infantry beaten far too often, for the price and their description you'd assume they could take on most things but i find them distinctly average and stick with normal janissries.
Prodigal
11-19-2002, 15:35
They're very strong in the earlies, but can't keep up with later developments & in the later stages, I find them limited & the units start to lose their intial edge.
You can't compare the Jannisary Heavies to Varangians.
The Jannisaries have anti-cav, AP and are fast, and as we can see with other units that is something that costs. The Varangians only have AP. So the Jannisaries are more versatile while the Varangians are more specialized.
Guys, if you want to try a campaign where the Byzantines face a more difficult time, try the 1092 campaign, which can be downloaded from:
1092 campaign download page (http://home.pacbell.net/jpaladin/1092Early.zip)
You'll find that the Byzantines are portrayed in a more historical fashion because they have less territory, face a sizable Turkish empire, and have to deal with Feudal Knights from other factions immediately.
These and quite a few other changes, including removing the link between Wessex and Flanders, make the game far more exciting and historically accurate.
Please try it out and share your thoughts in the following thread:
1092 campaign comments thread (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=1174)
Byz infantry also have a serious morale and fatigue problem that offset their advantage, sure they rocks big time for a quick-stand battle (can beat every infantry unit), but on occassion for long stand battle, they rout quicker compare to most other units.
on expert in the early period the byz infantry is nearly unstoppable(this is playing as itialians and turks).
I played Egyptian and allied with Turks to take out Byzantium (I want Constantinople). Despite their 7 or 8 stars generals (they all seems to have a lot of stars) and very good Cataphroi horses, I found I can break them. Trick is to double his army's size each time. Call it what you want, but Egyptian troops are cheap. (Setting was early/Expert)
Let me try again post patch.
Annie
G0THIC-Lobster
11-20-2002, 12:43
Nope byz is not that overpowered as you think, but hey my janissaries beat the snort outta 2 unit of varagians
Orda Khan
11-20-2002, 15:53
This is MP by the way
....Orda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
some guys dont understand the diference between MP and SP
plz read it to make sure that u dont mix it every time
u dont need spears if u have the byzinfantry, the shock unit of the byz are still good enought to eat the highamoured knights or lancers.... thsi faction is overpowered
u can still beat them, but they are muc hstroger than the other factions.
koc
G0THIC-Lobster
11-21-2002, 15:25
Quote[/b] (Kocmoc @ Nov. 21 2002,06:10)]some guys dont understand the diference between MP and SP
plz read it to make sure that u dont mix it every time
u dont need spears if u have the byzinfantry, the shock unit of the byz are still good enought to eat the highamoured knights or lancers.... thsi faction is overpowered
u can still beat them, but they are muc hstroger than the other factions.
koc
BTW.....I am talking about mp. I play this guy with 2 heavy jannisaries, he used a vg annd i tell him to get some more thing to make it fair...But he thinks they are the allmighty so i decided to challenge him. And i slaughter all his guards. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif And also byz infantry could beat lancers and knightz is because of their numbers. But during when they fight, the knightz gain valour which made them tougher but they take a lot o infantry with em.
Vlad The Impaler
11-22-2002, 01:09
i think that the byzantines are not too strong;
what i dont like in SP is the Almohads ..the new Hojo;
their cheap units are too strong;
about jannisary/varagian status..is normal.they have diffrent purposes
Lord Romulous
11-22-2002, 01:33
In sp.
I like how the byz (eastern roman empire) mostly dominate the north easterly part of map. makes me happy to see the once huge and proud roman empire still has a bit of fight left in it.
(although i have seen situations where the turks have got the upper hand and have left the byz with nothing but two small islands in the med. (this is ai vs ai)
the only empire that i think is to weak is the HRE. In history this empire survived until the 1800s or something.
In all my camps so far the HRE have been totaly destoyed by the early- mid era.
Quote[/b] ]what i dont like in SP is the Almohads ..the new Hojo; their cheap units are too strong.
i dont think these guys should be changed in upcoming patch (if there is one). I like how i have to watch my southern borders agaist the almos and my eastern ones agaisnst the byz.
but actually in my sp camps. the spanish kill the almos just as often as the almos kill them.
Hey Guys,
I agree. In MP, the Byzantines seem to have an unfair costing advantage.
For what it costs your opponents to field a moderate to high valour army of quality spear troops, be it Feudal or Chivalric Seargents or Order Footsoldiers, the Byz player can not only Max out the valour on all his infantry but still has Florins to spare to max out the valour on cav and missile troops AND upgrade the weapons and armour of a number of Units.
I've seen Order Foot Soldiers routed by Handgunners (and I've routed Order Foot Soldiers with Handgunners).
Something about that just doesn't seem right.
Azrael
Dionysus9
11-22-2002, 02:49
Speaking of things that "just dont seem right" are pavise arbs stopping and fighting charging cavalry...for prolonged periods. Amp brought my attention to this capability of arbs, and I've been surprised ever since.
These darn arbs will stand there and fight with lancers for a minute before routing. What sense does that make? Arbs are now better for stopping lancers than spears? (exaggeration, but not by much!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif.
Gah I think I need to try the community stats
Orda Khan
11-22-2002, 13:25
Yes Bacchus I agree. These arbs are as popular as muskets were. It doesn't take long does it before all the super units are worked out. I think it spoils things because all it does is standardise online armies. I want to be able to choose any units to make an army that stands a chance not what 'everyone' is picking
.........Orda
agreed, I had light cavalery beaten to death by pavise arbs http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
I just can't picture little guys burdened with heavy shields jumping on cavalerymen to beat them with their arbs as massues
Err, i think you'll find that the Arbs are no different to the Xbows at fighting hth and that it's the handgunners that are actually quite tough in hth.
Handgunners are actually more useful in hth than in shooting, lol.
Their stats are: att 1, def 3, arm 4, mor 4.
These more than make up for their awful shooting prowess.
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